WEBVTT - Everybody Relax. We're Talking About Crypto.

0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:07.040
<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio.

0:00:07.120 --> 0:00:14.040
<v Speaker 2>News, Merin Talks Money listeners. I have exciting news. I

0:00:14.200 --> 0:00:18.320
<v Speaker 2>am launching a weekly Merin Talks Money newsletter. This is

0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:21.080
<v Speaker 2>going to be the place, the best place to get

0:00:21.120 --> 0:00:24.400
<v Speaker 2>micro to micro thoughts on your money and your investments.

0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:27.639
<v Speaker 2>The first edition will hit the inboxes on Saturday of

0:00:27.680 --> 0:00:31.240
<v Speaker 2>Bloomberg subscribers and Bloomberg subscribers only, So be sure to

0:00:31.280 --> 0:00:34.400
<v Speaker 2>sign up to Bloomberg dot com slash newsletters or check

0:00:34.440 --> 0:00:36.280
<v Speaker 2>out the link in our show notes.

0:00:36.600 --> 0:00:37.559
<v Speaker 1>I hope you're gonna like it.

0:00:48.159 --> 0:00:50.360
<v Speaker 2>Welcome to the Merin Talks Money Weekly round up, our

0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:52.839
<v Speaker 2>deprie from the biggest stories in markets and economics. I'm

0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:55.760
<v Speaker 2>Merrin Sumsetweb Editor at Large for Bloomberg UK Wealth and

0:00:55.960 --> 0:00:59.800
<v Speaker 2>oh no, you can increase yourself John and I'm.

0:00:59.720 --> 0:01:04.800
<v Speaker 3>Joined Stepics, senior reporter and authors the Money Distilled newsletter.

0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:09.840
<v Speaker 3>Soon to go behind the paywall as well, so sign

0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:11.360
<v Speaker 3>up for Bloomberg dot com.

0:01:11.440 --> 0:01:14.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we're both going to be behind the paywall, and

0:01:14.680 --> 0:01:16.120
<v Speaker 2>I also be able to listen to the podcast.

0:01:16.120 --> 0:01:17.920
<v Speaker 1>By the way, that we're not going to charge you for.

0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:21.000
<v Speaker 1>But if you want to read our written words.

0:01:20.680 --> 0:01:22.679
<v Speaker 2>Of wisdom, you are going to have to be a

0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:25.280
<v Speaker 2>sign up to Bloomberg. So you can see that in

0:01:25.280 --> 0:01:28.880
<v Speaker 2>the show notes. As I said earlier, now, John John, John, Johnjohn,

0:01:28.920 --> 0:01:30.440
<v Speaker 2>you haven't got any cryptocurrency, have you?

0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:33.160
<v Speaker 1>Nothing? Not a single token, not a penny in it. Nothing.

0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:38.200
<v Speaker 3>Actually, actually, actually, I do have some obscure thing called

0:01:38.240 --> 0:01:43.679
<v Speaker 3>bitcoin cash. The Mutual friend Dominic sent to me okay,

0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:45.640
<v Speaker 3>services rendered at one point.

0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:48.760
<v Speaker 1>Oh, we'll talk about that offline. Fascinating.

0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:55.640
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, this is my.

0:01:55.640 --> 0:01:57.160
<v Speaker 2>Way of leading us into the fact that we have

0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:02.560
<v Speaker 2>got to talk about cryptocurrencies today. We've we flagged in

0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:05.680
<v Speaker 2>this very show only last week that the re election

0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:08.079
<v Speaker 2>of Donald Trump was going to be excellent news for

0:02:08.120 --> 0:02:12.560
<v Speaker 2>bitcoin and for cryptocurrencies in general. Now we're speaking in

0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:14.680
<v Speaker 2>the middle of the week and bitcoin search has paused,

0:02:14.880 --> 0:02:16.440
<v Speaker 2>maybe for a while, maybe not for a while, but

0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:18.960
<v Speaker 2>it's se a huge thirty percent jump in value as

0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:22.200
<v Speaker 2>a result of Trump's rhetorical support for crypto.

0:02:22.240 --> 0:02:23.560
<v Speaker 1>He's been talking about it a lot.

0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:27.680
<v Speaker 2>It's currently valued at around eighty six five hundred dollars.

0:02:27.760 --> 0:02:31.120
<v Speaker 2>But of course it's not the only cryptocurrency enjoying something

0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:35.359
<v Speaker 2>of a boost. Doge coin, dog cooin, help me out here.

0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:37.600
<v Speaker 4>I think doruge thanks doors.

0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:42.960
<v Speaker 2>Doge Yeah, yeah, doge coin, which by the way, I own,

0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:45.720
<v Speaker 2>has seen an eighty percent increase in the past five days,

0:02:45.800 --> 0:02:49.320
<v Speaker 2>partly due to billionaire Elon musk promotion of the token.

0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:52.040
<v Speaker 2>It's now considered one of the strongest performers in crypto.

0:02:52.240 --> 0:02:54.160
<v Speaker 2>And I will just add that I did say I

0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:57.440
<v Speaker 2>own some dogecoin, and I do, but I have recently

0:02:57.520 --> 0:02:59.919
<v Speaker 2>checked my coin based account and my dogecoin is current

0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:04.680
<v Speaker 2>worth ten pounds and forty two pence. It's gonna really

0:03:04.840 --> 0:03:08.200
<v Speaker 2>need to move from here to drive my retirement, right.

0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:13.080
<v Speaker 4>I mean, it's a coin, and that is a so

0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:13.919
<v Speaker 4>that's pretty good.

0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:15.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no, it is.

0:03:15.320 --> 0:03:17.000
<v Speaker 2>But you know, I mean, I know it's a joke coin,

0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:19.080
<v Speaker 2>and I bought it as a joke, as you, mainly

0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:22.240
<v Speaker 2>to irritate by my husband. But kind of the joke's

0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:24.720
<v Speaker 2>on me giving it certainly work worth just over a

0:03:24.800 --> 0:03:29.160
<v Speaker 2>tanner right now, one day, John, one day, my bitcoin

0:03:29.240 --> 0:03:31.920
<v Speaker 2>is worth a little more my insurance bitcoin. Now we

0:03:32.000 --> 0:03:33.720
<v Speaker 2>are both getting into quite a lot of trouble on

0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:37.520
<v Speaker 2>Twitter in general, because every time I write anything about bitcoin,

0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:40.160
<v Speaker 2>I get hoardes and hordes and hordes of replies from

0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:42.760
<v Speaker 2>the crypto bros telling me how stupid I am, telling

0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:45.640
<v Speaker 2>me how stupid you are, sorry, John, and how useless

0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:48.280
<v Speaker 2>we are not to have educated ourselves earlier, and how

0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:50.560
<v Speaker 2>one way, one day we will understand if we would

0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:53.680
<v Speaker 2>only come for this subject with a little more humility

0:03:54.360 --> 0:03:58.080
<v Speaker 2>and have more expert guests on. And they keep recommending

0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:01.600
<v Speaker 2>experts to me, this expert, that ex I am not

0:04:01.920 --> 0:04:04.560
<v Speaker 2>sure that you people really understand the difference between an

0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:06.960
<v Speaker 2>expert and a siloed idea logue.

0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:13.760
<v Speaker 3>You know, Yeah, there's a certain cultishness about bitcoin. And

0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:15.720
<v Speaker 3>the one reason that I actually have, if I'm one

0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:18.640
<v Speaker 3>hundred percent, was to have a slight soft spot for

0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:23.160
<v Speaker 3>it is because this reminds me of almost exactly what

0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:26.400
<v Speaker 3>the gold bugs were like in the early two thousands.

0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:31.120
<v Speaker 3>And at that point, you know, when we were writing

0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:34.720
<v Speaker 3>about gold, it was something that the mainstream media wouldn't

0:04:34.720 --> 0:04:37.960
<v Speaker 3>touch by a ten foot bar's pole. And you know,

0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:41.080
<v Speaker 3>you couldn't find an IFA or certainly not a respectable

0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:44.279
<v Speaker 3>wealthy managers who would even give gold space in their portfolio,

0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:48.159
<v Speaker 3>whereas today they all say, yeah, have five ten percent

0:04:48.200 --> 0:04:51.080
<v Speaker 3>of your portfolio and gold that's a decent diversifier blah

0:04:51.120 --> 0:04:54.760
<v Speaker 3>blah blah. So you know, there's a bit of me

0:04:54.920 --> 0:05:00.360
<v Speaker 3>that so sees remembers that and sees where some of

0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:02.120
<v Speaker 3>the frustration comes from.

0:05:02.240 --> 0:05:05.200
<v Speaker 2>And we should actually note with that in mind, that

0:05:05.200 --> 0:05:07.640
<v Speaker 2>that a deutsch Bank has just put a long term

0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:10.359
<v Speaker 2>asset return to study lessons from the first quarter center

0:05:10.400 --> 0:05:13.240
<v Speaker 2>of the millennium in which they point out that gold

0:05:13.279 --> 0:05:16.479
<v Speaker 2>has performed better than the US secuity marketer over the

0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:18.640
<v Speaker 2>first twenty five years of the of the millennium.

0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:21.039
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I mean, I mean that's really interesting, if you know,

0:05:21.120 --> 0:05:23.240
<v Speaker 3>because in two thousand, if you'd said the asset to

0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:26.239
<v Speaker 3>buy and hold right now is gold over.

0:05:26.200 --> 0:05:27.919
<v Speaker 1>Which we did by the way, which we did.

0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:35.160
<v Speaker 3>Well, Yeah, I guess good point, just saying well it

0:05:35.240 --> 0:05:37.800
<v Speaker 3>did and it has over performed since then. And that's

0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:41.880
<v Speaker 3>that's kind of fascinating in the all of itself. Employee

0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:45.039
<v Speaker 3>speaks to, you know, balance sheets and then the funny

0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:48.200
<v Speaker 3>kind of way, I guess beckcoin is actually an offshoot

0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:51.719
<v Speaker 3>of that world which has been very kind to gold.

0:05:52.120 --> 0:05:57.440
<v Speaker 3>It's a world where faith and the financial system, the

0:05:57.480 --> 0:06:00.480
<v Speaker 3>size of government bound shoots the central bank bound cheat says,

0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:04.400
<v Speaker 3>can shut up, so that the two have got there's

0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:07.640
<v Speaker 3>a certain sort of relationship there, but it's never good

0:06:07.680 --> 0:06:10.359
<v Speaker 3>to be cultishly invested in any asset.

0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:14.560
<v Speaker 2>I'm if I'm fair to our audience, I would say

0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:17.480
<v Speaker 2>maybe I've historically been a little cultures about gold, but

0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:21.680
<v Speaker 2>I never regret it. Right, Let's talk. Let's talk to

0:06:21.880 --> 0:06:23.840
<v Speaker 2>me a lot better than our value. Stock got to say.

0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:26.560
<v Speaker 2>Let's talk a little bit about why this has happened.

0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:29.520
<v Speaker 2>I mean, obviously it's a lot about the election. It's

0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:32.400
<v Speaker 2>not about Donald Trump, about the the likelihood of a

0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:36.599
<v Speaker 2>crypto friendly government across the board. We're like to see

0:06:36.640 --> 0:06:43.080
<v Speaker 2>some new cryptocurrency friendly legislation. There's almost nothing here that

0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:48.719
<v Speaker 2>appears to be negative to the cryptocurrency market. It's total capitalization.

0:06:48.880 --> 0:06:51.560
<v Speaker 2>Market capitalization is hid in all time high. We've seen

0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:56.400
<v Speaker 2>extraordinary levels of activity. Another a stat from Deutsche Bank

0:06:56.440 --> 0:07:01.000
<v Speaker 2>here twenty for our trading volume exceeding four hundred dollars.

0:07:01.240 --> 0:07:03.880
<v Speaker 2>So you've got a lot going on here.

0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:09.280
<v Speaker 4>Than silver though in terms of market yes, I saw that.

0:07:09.680 --> 0:07:15.440
<v Speaker 1>I saw that, Mart Okay, So there's lots of things

0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:16.200
<v Speaker 1>that could happen here.

0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:20.720
<v Speaker 2>We'll have more regularly claratory we'll have more institutional participation,

0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:23.680
<v Speaker 2>presumably as a result of this regulatory clarity, so we

0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:27.280
<v Speaker 2>can expect even more money to pour into bitcoin. ETFs

0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:30.440
<v Speaker 2>will have a better infrastructure, and maybe we'll see a

0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:34.960
<v Speaker 2>broader adoption of cryptocurrencies among not just the institutional but

0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:37.000
<v Speaker 2>also the retail market.

0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:37.920
<v Speaker 1>So there's that.

0:07:39.360 --> 0:07:43.000
<v Speaker 2>We've also got and momentum behind it. We've got possibly

0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:45.800
<v Speaker 2>lower interest rates coming, and that's good for everything. Everything

0:07:45.880 --> 0:07:50.200
<v Speaker 2>growthy and bitcoin tends to move alongside growth. And then

0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:55.000
<v Speaker 2>the final thing, which you mentioned briefly earlier, is ded dollarization,

0:07:55.520 --> 0:07:58.400
<v Speaker 2>fast raising debt, general global tensions. If you think of

0:07:58.400 --> 0:08:00.920
<v Speaker 2>crypto a bit like you think of gold, then it's

0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:04.040
<v Speaker 2>going to be in there. And here's another fascinating stat

0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:05.720
<v Speaker 2>for you again, I'm pulling this out of Deutsche Bank.

0:08:05.760 --> 0:08:09.280
<v Speaker 2>I think it's really interesting. The bricks nations now conduct

0:08:09.360 --> 0:08:13.520
<v Speaker 2>twenty eight percent of cross border crypto currency transactions. So

0:08:13.640 --> 0:08:16.960
<v Speaker 2>that suggests that it really is important that cryptocurrencies are

0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:21.360
<v Speaker 2>facilitating global economic flows, international emissionss, etcetera. In a way

0:08:21.360 --> 0:08:23.400
<v Speaker 2>that we hadn't We have talked about it on this podcast,

0:08:23.400 --> 0:08:26.000
<v Speaker 2>by the way. We had lengthy conversations, did we which

0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:27.920
<v Speaker 2>guess it was we had on who talked to us

0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:30.160
<v Speaker 2>her a lot about the way that cryptocurrency is, and

0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:35.640
<v Speaker 2>bitcoin in particular a use for economic transfers res across

0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:36.240
<v Speaker 2>the third world.

0:08:36.280 --> 0:08:39.880
<v Speaker 3>Was that limb Yeah, the one that keeping that we

0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:42.600
<v Speaker 3>should have oin and who we have had Oin?

0:08:43.200 --> 0:08:45.680
<v Speaker 2>Yes, the person people keep telling us we should definitely

0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:47.559
<v Speaker 2>have Lynen and I keep saying no, but we had

0:08:47.640 --> 0:08:49.720
<v Speaker 2>Lenon and leaves them going, well, then why don't you

0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:53.920
<v Speaker 2>understand that she was really good, very very good.

0:08:54.280 --> 0:08:55.240
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, very good.

0:08:55.760 --> 0:08:58.760
<v Speaker 2>Anyway, So all these things, So, John, does this lead

0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:03.120
<v Speaker 2>you rushing out now to buy bitcoin and accepting that

0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:06.080
<v Speaker 2>you and I and Be in particular have been completely

0:09:06.080 --> 0:09:10.080
<v Speaker 2>wrong on bitcoin ever since that tweet that I wrote

0:09:10.080 --> 0:09:13.160
<v Speaker 2>that thank you tech bros For dragging up back in

0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:17.080
<v Speaker 2>twenty eleven where I said that bitcoin at twenty eight

0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:20.719
<v Speaker 2>dollars was a mania.

0:09:21.200 --> 0:09:22.920
<v Speaker 4>I mean it was a mania at the time.

0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:27.079
<v Speaker 3>It's been through a number of manias, and Bitcoin's been

0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:30.679
<v Speaker 3>through at least two major bubbles and busts now, and

0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:34.600
<v Speaker 3>it's sort right that Matthew and bitcoin hasn't changed. I

0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:37.920
<v Speaker 3>think it's a real thing. I think it has a

0:09:38.080 --> 0:09:41.600
<v Speaker 3>use case. I just don't know how to value it,

0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:45.440
<v Speaker 3>and I think the valuation is largely driven by flows,

0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:49.080
<v Speaker 3>which is, you know, very indicative of the era that

0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:52.360
<v Speaker 3>we're in. Pretty much every asset valuation is driven more

0:09:52.480 --> 0:09:56.760
<v Speaker 3>so flows have become much more important than fundamentals, and

0:09:56.840 --> 0:09:59.680
<v Speaker 3>I don't know when or if that's going to change,

0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:02.880
<v Speaker 3>you know, I wish I had the wind that when

0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:05.120
<v Speaker 3>I frustrated by it in like twenty fifteen, in.

0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:07.920
<v Speaker 1>My stupid We've both been there.

0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:11.280
<v Speaker 3>So you know I would I would probably at least

0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:13.839
<v Speaker 3>have sold it at some point and bought a small

0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:15.800
<v Speaker 3>car with it, you know, but I like to think

0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:17.840
<v Speaker 3>that I could be a millionaire.

0:10:17.880 --> 0:10:22.040
<v Speaker 2>Bitt this point that that is the important thing to remember. Everyone,

0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:24.920
<v Speaker 2>the likes of you and me, John say, well, I

0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:27.320
<v Speaker 2>wish we bought this point. I wihould put at this point,

0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:29.240
<v Speaker 2>I we should bought at this point, we forget.

0:10:29.559 --> 0:10:30.520
<v Speaker 1>That we would have sold it.

0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:33.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we would not still be holding it now and

0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:36.079
<v Speaker 2>we'd be living with that kind of seller's regret, and

0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:39.680
<v Speaker 2>we would then almost definitely buy in at the top

0:10:39.720 --> 0:10:40.240
<v Speaker 2>of everything.

0:10:40.320 --> 0:10:45.080
<v Speaker 3>All we pull an Isaac Newton for absolutely certain the

0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:46.199
<v Speaker 3>sea bubble thing.

0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:49.320
<v Speaker 2>We would that would not be shameful, you like her.

0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:50.800
<v Speaker 4>I compared this to Isaac Newton.

0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:54.840
<v Speaker 1>I did. I really, I really appreciated that. Thank you.

0:10:54.840 --> 0:10:57.280
<v Speaker 2>Now listen, there's something that I that I wanted to

0:10:57.280 --> 0:11:00.280
<v Speaker 2>talk about, which is the possibility. And I'm not saying

0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:02.520
<v Speaker 2>this because I don't have very much bitcoin. There is

0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:08.079
<v Speaker 2>a possibility that is beginning to be discussed that Trump's

0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:14.720
<v Speaker 2>regulatory regime may be very crypto positive, but not necessarily

0:11:15.000 --> 0:11:18.720
<v Speaker 2>bitcoin bitcoin positive. And I've been talking to Russell Russell Napier,

0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:22.200
<v Speaker 2>the financial historian and founder of the Library of Mistakes,

0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:24.080
<v Speaker 2>who we've had on the podcast before, and we talked

0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:27.040
<v Speaker 2>to and about a reasonable amount about this. He makes

0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:29.840
<v Speaker 2>a very good point. He says, look, bitcoin is a

0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:34.560
<v Speaker 2>portal that allows savers to avoid measures that push savings

0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:39.160
<v Speaker 2>towards funding national investments. Trump is a nationalist. He's going

0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:42.520
<v Speaker 2>to want to use national savings for what he perceives

0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:46.120
<v Speaker 2>to be the national good. So maybe that's going to

0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:50.360
<v Speaker 2>make him move away from bitcoin slightly towards other, well

0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:52.320
<v Speaker 2>not other, but actual stable coins.

0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:53.440
<v Speaker 1>Now they're the opposite.

0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:56.319
<v Speaker 2>They're back to usually by short term treasury securities, and

0:11:56.360 --> 0:11:59.040
<v Speaker 2>they attract funds into the dollars, into the US government,

0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:01.680
<v Speaker 2>so they may turn into not just a means of

0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:05.280
<v Speaker 2>transaction for Americans, but also a store of value for

0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:08.240
<v Speaker 2>foreigners who don't have easy access to dollar deposits, So

0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:12.080
<v Speaker 2>that not only brings funds into the dollar, but also

0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:15.040
<v Speaker 2>provides funds that Trump may be able to direct to

0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:18.960
<v Speaker 2>what he considers to be the national good. So there's

0:12:19.160 --> 0:12:24.120
<v Speaker 2>there is a difference here between bitcoin and stable coins.

0:12:24.200 --> 0:12:26.120
<v Speaker 2>So when we talk about crypto, we have to remember

0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:29.520
<v Speaker 2>that crypto isn't one great big mass. It may be

0:12:29.600 --> 0:12:31.800
<v Speaker 2>that we now move into an era where all the

0:12:31.800 --> 0:12:33.880
<v Speaker 2>things that we have that people have discussed with us

0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:37.199
<v Speaker 2>on the podcast about the things that are good about

0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:41.760
<v Speaker 2>crypto in general, changing changing the way companies run, changing

0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:44.920
<v Speaker 2>the way various legal processes run, changing the way the

0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:49.600
<v Speaker 2>infrastructure of finance is run. That may turn out to

0:12:49.600 --> 0:12:53.840
<v Speaker 2>be the key thing under Trump as opposed to bitcoin itself.

0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:57.480
<v Speaker 3>I suppose that's the interesting thing. And this, I mean,

0:12:57.559 --> 0:13:00.559
<v Speaker 3>this is one reason you know, obviously the cryptos of

0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:03.560
<v Speaker 3>the thing, because stable currencies are stable coins are the

0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:06.120
<v Speaker 3>thing that actually worry governments, and they're the reason that

0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:13.199
<v Speaker 3>we're getting central bank digital currencies cbdc's because the fundamentally

0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:16.640
<v Speaker 3>the government cannot have the private sector taken over or

0:13:16.679 --> 0:13:22.640
<v Speaker 3>taking a large chunk of the currency business. That's basically

0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:25.920
<v Speaker 3>you know that and you've pointed this out before. Governments

0:13:25.960 --> 0:13:29.160
<v Speaker 3>have always made sure that the monopoly, in fact those

0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:32.400
<v Speaker 3>with monarchs as well, the monopoly and currency issuance must

0:13:32.440 --> 0:13:37.760
<v Speaker 3>always be with the leaders of the country, basically, and

0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:40.680
<v Speaker 3>crypto has posed a threat to that, and that's why

0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:45.520
<v Speaker 3>central banks and the bis have taken it seriously. And

0:13:45.559 --> 0:13:47.880
<v Speaker 3>you're right, and I think the risk here is that

0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:54.160
<v Speaker 3>the sort of ideological underpinnings of bitcoin and crypto specifically

0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:58.920
<v Speaker 3>we're all about essentially escaping from government control of currencies,

0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:02.400
<v Speaker 3>and the irony of ironies, as always says, is that,

0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:05.920
<v Speaker 3>as you say, maybe Trump is the one to mainstream them,

0:14:06.000 --> 0:14:09.040
<v Speaker 3>and maybe mainstreams them by making you know, bitcoin a

0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:13.760
<v Speaker 3>reserve aset that backs the staple coin version of the dollar.

0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:14.360
<v Speaker 4>Type of thing.

0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:17.280
<v Speaker 3>You know, he sort of brings it into, you know,

0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:21.360
<v Speaker 3>under the control of you know, a kind of essentialized

0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:23.040
<v Speaker 3>kind of power. And I realize a lot of people

0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:24.960
<v Speaker 3>will be spitting out their tea when they hear that,

0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:28.640
<v Speaker 3>But that's kind of you know, if you're excited the

0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:32.760
<v Speaker 3>black Rock have launched that, you know, an etf owning bitcoin,

0:14:33.000 --> 0:14:33.480
<v Speaker 3>et cetera.

0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:36.880
<v Speaker 2>And then then you're not really yes, I mean, you're

0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:39.000
<v Speaker 2>not there with the original purpose of bitcoin. You know,

0:14:39.000 --> 0:14:41.560
<v Speaker 2>it's supposed to be more on a transaction currency that

0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:44.160
<v Speaker 2>has not happened, and it's long been taken over by

0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:46.640
<v Speaker 2>other things, and that they're supposed to be a store

0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:49.400
<v Speaker 2>of value, and you can't really call it that because

0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:51.920
<v Speaker 2>of the volatility. I mean, you can say it's gone

0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:53.680
<v Speaker 2>up in value, but that's not the same as being

0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:56.760
<v Speaker 2>a store of value, is it. And of course there's

0:14:56.760 --> 0:14:59.240
<v Speaker 2>this idea that it was supposed to operate outside the system,

0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:02.120
<v Speaker 2>and I was, it's now being pulled deeper and deeper

0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:04.040
<v Speaker 2>into the system. And one thing I might add to that,

0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:07.560
<v Speaker 2>by the way, is it in the general abuse I

0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:10.840
<v Speaker 2>get on Twitter as next tech bros. The general abuse

0:15:10.880 --> 0:15:13.840
<v Speaker 2>I get on Twitter a lot. A lot of it

0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:15.600
<v Speaker 2>is about, well, you know, if Larry Fink thinks it's

0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:17.240
<v Speaker 2>an asset class, then you should think it's a NAS

0:15:17.280 --> 0:15:18.720
<v Speaker 2>class too, and do you know what's wrong with you?

0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:19.080
<v Speaker 1>Et cetera.

0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:21.960
<v Speaker 2>And the point I would say to that is that

0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:25.800
<v Speaker 2>just because big institutions launch vehicles that allow you to

0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:29.360
<v Speaker 2>invest in a product, does not mean that they have

0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:32.320
<v Speaker 2>a particular belief in the long term value of that

0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:35.720
<v Speaker 2>product of that acid class. Simply that all products in

0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:39.600
<v Speaker 2>which you invest make big institutions money. So you know, obviously,

0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:41.240
<v Speaker 2>if you're going to set up a Bitcoin ETF, you

0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:44.440
<v Speaker 2>assume the bitcoin has got strong some longevity. But it's

0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:47.720
<v Speaker 2>not a vote of confidence in its long term value.

0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:50.600
<v Speaker 2>It's a vote of confidence in the fees that you

0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:54.280
<v Speaker 2>can gather from creating a vehicle in which other people

0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:58.640
<v Speaker 2>can invest in. I mean, it's different, it's different, So

0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:01.320
<v Speaker 2>please everyone stops sending me tweets saying that it was

0:16:01.320 --> 0:16:03.280
<v Speaker 2>good enough for black crockets should be good enough for me.

0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:07.920
<v Speaker 3>They only I mean, from a practical point of view,

0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:13.160
<v Speaker 3>I think that the best approach to investing in bitcoin

0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:19.600
<v Speaker 3>that I have seen is probably Charlie Morris's Bold, and.

0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:21.400
<v Speaker 2>I think we can probably say to that before you

0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:23.520
<v Speaker 2>tell us what boulders, I think I will also say

0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:28.000
<v Speaker 2>everyone telling us on Twitter to get Charlie Morrison, he's.

0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:33.320
<v Speaker 1>Been on john't remind us what bold is.

0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:36.880
<v Speaker 3>Basically, Charlie's get this mix where it's it's something like

0:16:37.160 --> 0:16:40.920
<v Speaker 3>it's the proportions vary, but it's a big chunk of gold.

0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:42.400
<v Speaker 4>With a little chunk of bitcoin.

0:16:43.000 --> 0:16:45.800
<v Speaker 3>And the great thing about it is that because they

0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:48.760
<v Speaker 3>kind of have similarities, but they also have differenceies, so

0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:51.680
<v Speaker 3>when one's going up, the others going down in vice versa.

0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:54.520
<v Speaker 3>But also it smooth at the volatility, and I think

0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:57.320
<v Speaker 3>it's returned. I could be completely wrong in this because

0:16:57.320 --> 0:16:58.440
<v Speaker 3>I don't have the figure in front of me, but

0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:01.480
<v Speaker 3>I think it's about eighty percent this year, which is

0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:04.560
<v Speaker 3>much better than you know, it's it's not as good

0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:07.520
<v Speaker 3>as holding bitcoin by itself, but at the same time,

0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:09.399
<v Speaker 3>there's no point at which you've been looking at your

0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:12.080
<v Speaker 3>portfolio going oh my god and kind of like sobbing

0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:14.280
<v Speaker 3>and worrying that you can be able to pay your

0:17:14.359 --> 0:17:14.960
<v Speaker 3>mortgage that.

0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:15.679
<v Speaker 4>Week or whatever.

0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:20.880
<v Speaker 3>So you know that's that's eighty percent is quite respectable.

0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:24.120
<v Speaker 3>And Charlie's been banging the drum on this for years now,

0:17:25.720 --> 0:17:27.959
<v Speaker 3>and think he's pretty much the only person I can

0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:31.359
<v Speaker 3>think of certainly that's talked about it in that respect.

0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:35.919
<v Speaker 3>And he definitely understands bitcoin for anyone who is, you know,

0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:38.280
<v Speaker 3>that way inclined.

0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:40.440
<v Speaker 4>So no, I think his approach is the best.

0:17:41.240 --> 0:17:43.000
<v Speaker 1>Do you mean he doesn't need to educate himself.

0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:47.760
<v Speaker 3>He doesn't need to educate himself, and obviously with more humility. Yeah,

0:17:49.200 --> 0:17:51.360
<v Speaker 3>humility is the first world that springs to mind when

0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:51.760
<v Speaker 3>I think you.

0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:55.880
<v Speaker 1>Okay, but that's interesting.

0:17:55.960 --> 0:17:58.520
<v Speaker 2>So anyone who hasn't listened to the episode that we

0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:00.760
<v Speaker 2>did with Charlie, do go back and listen to listen

0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:01.240
<v Speaker 2>to it again.

0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:02.440
<v Speaker 1>It's very interesting.

0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:07.119
<v Speaker 3>Some of us very kindly, just as showed me Childie's

0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:10.120
<v Speaker 3>most recent update. And so Bold has with on fifty

0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:14.199
<v Speaker 3>six percent, which is better than gold and not as

0:18:14.240 --> 0:18:15.080
<v Speaker 3>good as bitcoin.

0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:16.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:17.520
<v Speaker 1>God, I take that, though, wouldn't you.

0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:19.160
<v Speaker 4>I would take fifty six percent.

0:18:20.480 --> 0:18:23.120
<v Speaker 1>Crypto has done very well. Gold has done very well.

0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:24.320
<v Speaker 1>Crypto has done better.

0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:27.080
<v Speaker 2>You could have done pretty well by having both. You

0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:29.800
<v Speaker 2>may think that the future is very certain for bitcoin,

0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:33.440
<v Speaker 2>given that Trump appears to be a backer of bitcoin,

0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:35.560
<v Speaker 2>but there are all sorts of dynamics out there that

0:18:35.600 --> 0:18:38.600
<v Speaker 2>you don't and we don't yet fully understand. The future

0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:41.720
<v Speaker 2>is never certain anything else about John.

0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:45.280
<v Speaker 3>No said obviously all complaints to somewhere.

0:18:45.280 --> 0:18:48.760
<v Speaker 2>They also went to oh absolutely, and particularly about bitcoin,

0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:51.760
<v Speaker 2>particularly about bitcoin. And by the way, one one last thing,

0:18:51.840 --> 0:18:54.120
<v Speaker 2>it might still be a mania might be who knows.

0:18:59.000 --> 0:19:01.680
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for listening. To this week's Merin Talks Money Debrief.

0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:03.920
<v Speaker 2>If you like us show, rate and review, and subscribe

0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:06.320
<v Speaker 2>wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, be sure to follow

0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:08.680
<v Speaker 2>me in John on x or Twitter, at mariness W

0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:11.320
<v Speaker 2>and at John Underscore Stepic John.

0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:12.640
<v Speaker 1>Have you joined truth Social yet?

0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:13.040
<v Speaker 2>No?

0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:15.920
<v Speaker 4>But I intend to excellent get on with.

0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:17.359
<v Speaker 1>It I have at Marinus W.

0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:21.240
<v Speaker 2>This episode was produced by Summersadi, Production support and sound

0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:24.000
<v Speaker 2>designed by Moses and Questions and comments on this show

0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:26.960
<v Speaker 2>and all our shows always welcome. Our show email is

0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:29.280
<v Speaker 2>merin Money at Bloomberg dot net