1 00:00:02,200 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: I'm Will Lucas and this is black Tech, Green Money Fans. 2 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: Morris is Lead Product Designer, Global Conversion at Netflix. He's 3 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: an entrepreneur and self taught designer leading one of the 4 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:17,599 Speaker 1: most impactful teams inside one of the biggest tech and 5 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: media companies on the planet. He's traveled all around the 6 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:25,159 Speaker 1: world on his self driven educational adventures, and prior to 7 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: joining Netflix, he let a design team at Corsera. He's 8 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: super passionate about mentorship and helping young designers on their journey, 9 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: spending a lot of time doing it. He's got a 10 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 1: lot of big work on his plate, but why it's 11 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 1: helping young designers on their journey among the biggest. 12 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 2: Thanks for shouting that out. 13 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 3: I guess the easy answer I can say is I 14 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 3: feel honored to be able to do that. Like everybody 15 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 3: doesn't have the opportunity to be able to affect that many. 16 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 2: People or impact their community like that. 17 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 3: So I think I'm just very honored to be able 18 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 3: to do that, and that honor keeps me going as 19 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 3: well as just that's my nature, that's just how I am. 20 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 3: I did a sixteen personalities test, and part of my 21 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 3: strengths of that result of that test was I just 22 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 3: want the best for everybody, is what they said. That's 23 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,039 Speaker 3: how I just look at the world. And I also 24 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 3: look at the world as I want to be able 25 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 3: to say that I have that I have and I 26 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 3: had impact. I'm just honored and I enjoy seeing people 27 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 3: thrive and grow and people open the door for me. 28 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 3: So it's almost a pay forward type of situation as well. 29 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 1: So you are a self taught designer, and I'm interested 30 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: in your take on today. You know, just several years ago, 31 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: we were, you know, just talking about how you needed 32 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: to go to school. Companies required it because it was 33 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 1: part of their filtering process. These days, maybe not so much. 34 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: I want you to speak on that. But being in 35 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: product design, how do you show, oh, number one, can 36 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: you do it being self taught? And secondarily, how do 37 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: you show that you've got the jobs to do it? 38 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 2: So yes, you can definitely get a See. 39 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:16,079 Speaker 3: The thing is we have to be more specific about 40 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 3: the type of industry that we're talking about or the 41 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 3: specific company, because it's not fair to just say Google 42 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 3: or Netflix. I know those are the fame companies, so 43 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 3: that could be big tech you want to say, right, 44 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 3: but when you think of all of the different places 45 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 3: that are looking for product designers or are now adapting 46 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 3: design thinking have now given design a seat at the table. 47 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 3: There's millions of companies that you're just never going to 48 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 3: think of, right, So, yes, you can definitely get an 49 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 3: amazing job a design job at any stage of a 50 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 3: company's life cycle. I can say you can go from 51 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 3: being an entrepreneur and creating your own company to working 52 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 3: at a startup to working at a Series B or 53 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 3: C D company that's work one hundreds of millions, or 54 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 3: you can work with an IPO company and all of 55 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 3: them will hire a self taught designer because it's more 56 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 3: about the experience that you have. So if you are 57 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:14,519 Speaker 3: able to use your self taught skills to then get 58 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 3: opportunities and get experiences to answer your second question, to 59 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:21,079 Speaker 3: show the skills that you have, that's how you get 60 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 3: the job. 61 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:25,079 Speaker 2: The other names and stuff go with it. 62 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:27,919 Speaker 3: So if you tell somebody you work that meta, they're 63 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 3: going to think you had a higher quality of experience, 64 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 3: so that's why they're interested in you. 65 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 2: Yes, the meta part. 66 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 3: Is important, but what is the real importance is they 67 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 3: think you have a certain skill set, so you need 68 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 3: to be able to demonstrate that you have that skill 69 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 3: set and that's through your experiences. So that's why you 70 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 3: get a job and have a resume and have a 71 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 3: LinkedIn page that shows where have you worked, what. 72 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 2: Have you done, what skills do you have? 73 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 3: And now the company decides does your skill set match 74 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 3: the problem solving that they be done. 75 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's dig into that, because when you use the 76 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 1: word skills a couple of times, I want to make 77 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: sure people know what you're actually talking about. 78 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 4: So because there's a. 79 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 1: Difference between being like a pigma beast, like you can 80 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 1: just run circles inside Figma or Adobe or and a 81 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: difference between that and being just a person who develops 82 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: really beautiful products. And so can you talk about when 83 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: you say skills, I can show the skills that I have. 84 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:28,839 Speaker 4: What do you define that for me? 85 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 3: So the skills would be defined by the individual of 86 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 3: where they say their strengths are or where they want 87 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:38,359 Speaker 3: to pursue their career in. 88 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 2: When you think of a products life cycle. 89 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 3: There's different phases in those different phases require different skills. 90 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 3: So if you are a visual person, you may want 91 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 3: to focused on the visual design, which maybe youI which 92 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:57,159 Speaker 3: would be almost like a couple steps into the process 93 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 3: as opposed to per se I'm a product designer and 94 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 3: I'm trying to help ideate the idea and come up 95 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 3: with it from the beginning, So my skills might be 96 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:09,239 Speaker 3: more just like an innovative thinker. 97 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 2: I like, I'm. 98 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 3: Good at brainstorming, I'm good at coming up with zero 99 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 3: to one ideas. So that might be the skills that 100 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 3: I'm saying I have as a product designer. Where a 101 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 3: visual designer might say what you just said of I'm 102 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 3: really good in figma, I've done a bunch of you why, 103 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:32,719 Speaker 3: I can really take take wireframes and bring them to 104 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 3: life and make them inciting and make users want to 105 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 3: interact with them. So that would be the skills of 106 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 3: that person. Where if you were a ux researcher, you 107 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 3: really can come up with deep understand you know how 108 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 3: to interact with your users to get their insights from 109 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 3: them about different products that you may be working on 110 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 3: or different questions you have, So you have research skills. 111 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 2: So it's all about out what. 112 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:03,359 Speaker 3: Do you want to work on, what brings you joy, 113 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 3: what brings you passion, what excites you, and then now 114 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 3: the skills for that specific industry or domain will be 115 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 3: different and will be unique, and they'll be overlapping things 116 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 3: like that. 117 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 2: But man, the bucket of skills isles. 118 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: And so when you are you are today leading product design, 119 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: particularly for conversion at Netflix, and in my view, I mean, 120 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: maybe this is me translating it for myself, but you're 121 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: you're designing for sales, You're designing to keep people on 122 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: the site. You're designed to keep people going down the 123 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 1: rabbit hole in Netflix. So I'm gonna let you translate 124 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: it for your own. I'ma let you define that. But 125 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: when we think about product design, I when I listen 126 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 1: to you talk, and I've listened to other interviews you've had. 127 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 1: We've been friends for a while, and I listened to 128 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: your other interview, and I'm like, this guy is a 129 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 1: man that thinks about data. 130 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 4: He's and I saw this quote I want to bring up. 131 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 1: I don't even know if you remember say this, but 132 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:03,239 Speaker 1: you said, at this stage of my career, I don't 133 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 1: like to guess. I don't like to assume either. The 134 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: data doesn't dictate the design, but help support and give 135 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 1: direction for it. So can you take those things I 136 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: just mentioned there and just talk more about. 137 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 2: That, yeah, for sure. 138 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 3: So the second part I love to speak on because 139 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 3: when you're working with a user base that's as large 140 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 3: as Netflix is, we have about two hundred and sixty 141 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 3: million subscribers, you really any decisions you make are going 142 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 3: to affect a large amount of people. Now, even if 143 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 3: you do a small test, a small test for us 144 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 3: might be two million people, that's still two million people. 145 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 3: If we do like a multi large user based test, 146 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 3: that could be fifty sixty million people. You really shouldn't 147 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 3: be guessing when you're affecting that many people. And if 148 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 3: you have the resources and you have the data, now 149 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 3: you use that data to help figure out the dues 150 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 3: and don't of solving this problem where if you're just guessing, 151 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 3: you might make the wrong decision, where when you have 152 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 3: the data might tell you you shouldn't even be worrying 153 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 3: about that part of this problem, like that's not where 154 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 3: the problem is, or this is where you should be 155 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 3: focused more on. So that will fluctuate depending on the 156 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 3: problem you're solving. 157 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 2: But that's where I'm coming from. 158 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 3: Of I still have to come up with the solution 159 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 3: for it, but my solution is a lot more educated, 160 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:34,320 Speaker 3: So my chances of success is a lot higher because 161 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 3: I have the data to back it up. 162 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 2: So that's where I'm coming from. 163 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 3: Of right now, I'm less about oh, did Fonds make 164 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:47,200 Speaker 3: the right decision? I'm more focused on is this the 165 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,079 Speaker 3: best decision for our user? And now what are all 166 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 3: of the different things I need to do to make 167 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:54,319 Speaker 3: sure that that's the best decision. So it's almost says 168 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 3: as my career have grown has grown, I've kind of 169 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 3: taken myself out of being the person that I'm designing 170 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 3: for trying to make happy, and I'm really focused on 171 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 3: the user. So I'm very user centric with my design 172 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:12,840 Speaker 3: and my career I think now and forever moving forward. 173 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:16,080 Speaker 3: I always was user centric, but this still was so 174 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 3: much that I was focusing in and trying to just 175 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 3: prove to myself that I was a designer. Where now 176 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:26,439 Speaker 3: I'm more getting the job done. And to get that done, 177 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 3: it takes a lot, like it takes a lot of 178 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 3: cross collaboration, it takes a lot of understanding of multiple 179 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:35,560 Speaker 3: domains at once, and it takes you being able to 180 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 3: really know how to use the data to make the 181 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 3: best decisions. 182 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:41,679 Speaker 1: You just said something. I thought it was interesting. You 183 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: just said you know I've been. I was trying to 184 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 1: prove to myself that I was a designer. You know, 185 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 1: Tay you more about that if you can. 186 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. Sure. 187 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 3: I think when anybody's getting started in a career, you're 188 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:58,199 Speaker 3: trying to build that confidence up, and you're probably comparing 189 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 3: yourself to people who you look up to, who have 190 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 3: more experienced than you, and you want to be in 191 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 3: their shoes one day. 192 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 2: So it's easy for you to kind of and I 193 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 2: don't like. 194 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 3: This term, but it's true to kind of develop imposter syndrome. 195 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 3: I don't think it's imposter because imposter is me trying 196 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 3: to perform. 197 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 2: Surgery on somebody. 198 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 3: I have no right to even think about doing anything 199 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 3: in medicine, but a lot of things design related. I 200 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 3: mean I might not be an expert in that, but 201 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 3: I think I have the right to stand up. 202 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 2: I know what I'm talking about. 203 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 3: So it's not that you're an impost it's just the 204 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 3: responsibilities and the expectations. It be so high sometimes that 205 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 3: you don't feel like you might be able to get 206 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 3: it done, and you're constantly reassuring yourself through different projects 207 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 3: that you work on. And we're only human and we're 208 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 3: sensitive and I think we forget about that part when 209 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 3: we're building product and we're building tech. 210 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 2: It's like we forget about the humanity side of it. 211 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 3: And that's always there, it's the foundation of it. So 212 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 3: when you're growing your career and as you move to 213 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 3: new jobs and with more responsibilities, you're constantly trying to 214 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:11,719 Speaker 3: prove to yourself that yo, you can do this, and 215 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:15,680 Speaker 3: you're good enough and you earned to be here. And 216 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 3: then depending on what other society things you may have 217 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:23,839 Speaker 3: going on, like are you a female versus a male? 218 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 3: Like are you from an underrepresented community? Like where'd you 219 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 3: go to school? All of those different things play a 220 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 3: part when you're working in this, just like ecosystem, So 221 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 3: at certain times you might find yourself I think not 222 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 3: necessarily designing for the wrong reasons, because you should make 223 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 3: yourself happy, but you start to lose focus on what 224 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 3: you should really be focused on. And that's why I 225 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 3: said I'm a user centered now as opposed to just 226 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:56,080 Speaker 3: like what does fonds thinking? 227 00:11:57,360 --> 00:11:58,679 Speaker 2: Do I think this looks great? 228 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 3: Sometimes it designs that end up shipping aren't the ones 229 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 3: that I think are the best designs. But it didn't 230 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,680 Speaker 3: matter because the data proved that this other design was 231 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 3: more efficient, so that's what we went with. 232 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 4: Yeah. 233 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 1: So in that same interview where I got that quote, 234 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: you were talking about the data and you were talking 235 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 1: about how, hey, somebody says, you know, people in Korea 236 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 1: are canceling. And then okay, so now you're going to 237 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: go dig into the data to figure out, Okay, is 238 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 1: that really true? 239 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 4: Number one? 240 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 1: And then why, And you said something I thought was 241 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 1: so interesting. You were like, you know, at some level 242 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:33,320 Speaker 1: you've got to talk to them, talk to the customers 243 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: and see, okay, why are you canceling? And I'm like, 244 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:38,679 Speaker 1: but he's at Netflix. And I remember this this quote 245 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 1: from Paul Graham who said, you know, do things that 246 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 1: don't scale. Doing things that don't scale, that's how you 247 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 1: get to scale. And I'm like, even at Netflix, you 248 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 1: are doing things like you can't pick up the phone 249 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 1: and call it one million people, you can't pick up 250 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: the phone and called fifty million, but you're talking still 251 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: to customers, even at that big of a stage. 252 00:12:57,280 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, you have to talk to customers. I mean, I 253 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 3: think that's one of the. 254 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 2: Favorite parts of my job. Honestly. 255 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 3: We just had some calls that we had to really 256 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 3: work hard to ramp up to get done because the 257 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,319 Speaker 3: timeframe of the window that we had to actually do 258 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 3: the calls. 259 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,559 Speaker 2: And calls are qualitative research. 260 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 3: So qualitative is when you're like physically talking to somebody. 261 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 3: You're working with an individual versus like a focused group 262 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 3: versus quantitative could just be surveys. 263 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 2: So we could do a quantitative. 264 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 3: Survey and send that out the millions of people and 265 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 3: now you're at the mercy of whoever opens it and spam, 266 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 3: but you're going to get a huge group of people, right, 267 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 3: So quantitative is super valuable. But then qualitative is super 268 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 3: valuable because that's me sitting down with you now and 269 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 3: me being able to show you and say, hey, Will, 270 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 3: what's your thoughts about this? And then you say X, 271 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 3: y Z, And then I show you something else and 272 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 3: you give this and you give that. So now come 273 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 3: up with an idea that I think I have, but 274 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 3: I'm not just relying on. 275 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 2: Me validating it. 276 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 3: I'm making sure that it actually has value for the 277 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 3: people who who I thought I'm solving is for. So 278 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 3: by showing this to you, I can now hear from 279 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 3: you and you might give me a completely different set 280 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 3: of feedback that is opposite of what I thought, and 281 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 3: it's better for me to hear that feedback from you 282 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 3: now and improve the idea or scrap the idea. Now 283 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 3: I'll make the decision on how much of your input 284 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 3: I want to take. But now when we start thinking 285 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 3: of depending on the size of the research. 286 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 2: If you do research of. 287 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 3: Fifteen people and all fifteen people don't understand what's going on, 288 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 3: that's a sign that most. 289 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 2: People are probably not going to know what's going on. 290 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 3: So you can now take that information, take that data 291 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 3: once again, go back to the drawing board, make some edits, 292 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 3: go maybe test one more time, and now that second 293 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 3: time around you might see twelve people understand it. So 294 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 3: the first go zero understood it. You took the learners 295 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 3: from that, fixed it, went back twelve people understand it. 296 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 3: Now you probably got a better chance of more people 297 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 3: will understand that, and you figure out what's the next step. 298 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 2: Of testing and things like that. 299 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 3: So you tie the user research into experimentation, and I 300 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 3: think it just really allows you to build a way 301 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 3: better product before it. 302 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 2: Gets to market. And the last thing I'll say is 303 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 2: the reason why that is. 304 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 3: Important When you have a brand that is IPO, meaning 305 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 3: they're trading on the stock market. Their stock price can 306 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 3: be very volatile and tied to public perception and current 307 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 3: brand state. So if you roll out something bad that 308 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 3: all of your users jump on Twitter x Instagram and 309 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 3: they're talking smack, and now the market hears about that, 310 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 3: that could negatively affect your stock price, which negatively affects 311 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 3: your stakeholders and your shareholders, and it's just it gets 312 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 3: all bad. 313 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 2: So you want to really avoid that when. 314 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 3: You really are a when the basis of your company 315 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 3: is a product, like Netflix is a product. So it 316 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 3: would be in our best interest to make sure all 317 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 3: of our products are at the highest quality every time 318 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 3: you roll them out and there are no snack foods 319 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 3: or hiccups because that backtracking of that feature or that 320 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 3: negative sentiment and the market can really affect us as 321 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 3: a company. So not to be long winded, but that's 322 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 3: why you have to do all of that, because at 323 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 3: the end of the day, we're trying to make sure 324 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 3: you all are happy, and when you're not happy, everybody suffers, 325 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 3: you meaning the customer. 326 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, there's something I've heard you say 327 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 1: several times and not just this interview and others where 328 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: you said, you know, at Netflix, like, you have a 329 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: lot of resources, You have a lot of things you 330 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 1: can pull from to be able to do things at 331 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 1: a big scale small skill You get to pick big scale, 332 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: small scale whatever. And so when you talked about doing 333 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 1: that research, qualitative research, what I find is, with a 334 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: lot of founders and you mentioned this worst, I'll bring 335 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: it back up, we're sensitive and so we can there's 336 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 1: sometimes you can be inauthentic with your questions to people 337 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:11,880 Speaker 1: with customers, you know, potential users too, because you don't 338 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 1: want you want to structure the question in a way 339 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: to get the answer. You want them to give you right. 340 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: And so so how do so understanding what's sensitive? Understanding 341 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: A lot of people who listen to this will be founders, 342 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: will be entrepreneurs who are trying to get, you know, 343 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 1: to the fame level. You know, Facebook, Apple, Netflix, Google, 344 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: and there's there's others now and video even when you video, 345 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 1: yeah incredible. 346 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:44,160 Speaker 4: So how do you how do you ensure you're being 347 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:48,200 Speaker 4: authentic in that qualitative research, especially. 348 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 1: When you're just trying you know, there's this whole other 349 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: thing of you know, if you're not embarrassed by your 350 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:56,119 Speaker 1: first release, you've released too late because you could do 351 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: so much research, so much design, so much et cetera, 352 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: and now you just spend a whole bunch of money, 353 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 1: how much of resource or something that nobody even wants 354 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 1: to use in the first place. 355 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 2: Right, which is the worst case scenario. 356 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 3: And I think that's what a lot of founders or 357 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 3: companies end up doing. So you don't want to waste 358 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:19,159 Speaker 3: your time working on things that really won't solve the 359 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 3: problem that that like you're looking for, or that. 360 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 2: The customer is like looking for. 361 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,360 Speaker 3: So you want to make sure that you're always talking 362 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 3: to your your customers to really understand, Like asking questions 363 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 3: that don't solve the problems that the company needs is 364 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 3: a complete waste of time, to be honest with you, Like, 365 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 3: that's the most blunt way I can put it. To 366 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 3: go through the motions of scheduling, the research, the finances, 367 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 3: the time, the expense, like all of that stuff that 368 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 3: it takes to do research, to only ask questions to 369 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 3: tailor them in a way for you to get answers 370 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 3: that you want is like, that's just unprofessional. It's to 371 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 3: waste the time, it's not going to really help you 372 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,680 Speaker 3: get anything done. Where this is a shout out to 373 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 3: my UX researchers at Netflix. We grill like they come 374 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 3: up with questions, We suggest questions. We grial each other 375 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:16,360 Speaker 3: on the questions of like, that question is just not 376 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 3: going to get us to like what you think we're 377 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:20,879 Speaker 3: going to get from that question. 378 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 2: It's not really going to help us as much as 379 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:23,439 Speaker 2: you think it is. 380 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,199 Speaker 3: Like I've had my UX research and tell me that 381 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 3: many times, and. 382 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,679 Speaker 2: She wasn't trying to front on me or call me 383 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 2: out or nothing. She's just helping me. Think that. 384 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 3: Think about what do you need from every question that 385 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:40,879 Speaker 3: you're asking and do you really need like do you 386 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 3: really need a vanity question? Like I tell you that 387 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 3: I like your shirt? Will I mean it feels good? 388 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 3: But do you really need that question? And the answer 389 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 3: is no. 390 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 1: So it's like, no, you don't like my shirt, No 391 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: you don't like my shirt. 392 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:54,920 Speaker 2: I like your shirt. Do you really need to tell 393 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:58,679 Speaker 2: you that you know it's a nice shirt? You just 394 00:19:58,720 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 2: want to hear me. 395 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:05,879 Speaker 5: There's the other stuff I could probably tell you. So 396 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:10,199 Speaker 5: I think about a UX research like that, that's a 397 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 5: very important time for you to interact with your user 398 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 5: or interact with your potential user and really understand and 399 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,360 Speaker 5: make that connection possibly bond with them. 400 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,200 Speaker 2: To really learn some critical information. 401 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 3: So to waste that time would just be like sad. 402 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 3: It would be sad, and it's going to have an 403 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 3: impact where it's going to have a negative impact, where 404 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 3: if you had asked them the right questions, it could 405 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 3: have like such a positive impact because now you can 406 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 3: really say, Okay, I've shared this product with X users 407 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:44,400 Speaker 3: and this was their feedback. 408 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 2: And if the feedback. 409 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,639 Speaker 3: Is not what you wanted to hear, so what you 410 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:51,239 Speaker 3: now use that feedback and you build on it and 411 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:53,479 Speaker 3: you make the product better, and if it is what 412 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 3: you want to hear, then you're like, great, we got 413 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 3: some stuff validated in this research, and now that gives 414 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 3: a great life to do xyz. So either way, the 415 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:06,479 Speaker 3: UX research is so important, and talking to users is 416 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 3: almost if I'm a part of any company, if I'm 417 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 3: talking to any founders, if any of my peoples have questions, 418 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 3: I'm just always pushing for research, no matter how many 419 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 3: resources you have to bring us all the way back. 420 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 3: If you can only do research with five people, that's 421 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 3: better than zero. If you can do research with fifty million, 422 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,479 Speaker 3: like bu can in Netflix, that's fantastic. As well, But 423 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 3: just remember that the research is super super important. 424 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 1: If you're relearning or learning for the first time product 425 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 1: design today, knowing the tools that are available to you 426 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 1: today versus what was available when you were when you 427 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 1: were teaching yourself, then would you what would you be 428 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: doing or what do you advise people to do that's relevant? 429 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 1: What are the tools that are relevant today to learning 430 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 1: those methods of learning. 431 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 2: I don't even think I would tell you to jump 432 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 2: into tools. 433 00:21:54,880 --> 00:22:00,159 Speaker 3: I think tools is more like second, where first I 434 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 3: would tell people to focus more on what kind of 435 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 3: problems do you. 436 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 2: Want to solve? First? Like, that's the first question. 437 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 3: That's like such a basic foundational question that I don't 438 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 3: think a lot of people probably have asked themselves in 439 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 3: the last couple of years. So first ask yourself that, right, 440 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 3: because that's going to open up the doors of if 441 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 3: you just pick a software, you may be able to 442 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 3: use that software, but that software may not be mandatory 443 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 3: or it may not get you where you want to go, 444 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 3: as opposed to if you have under like, if you 445 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:34,919 Speaker 3: have an understanding of the problem you want to solve, 446 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 3: now you'll say, okay, well this is means I'm going 447 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:42,199 Speaker 3: to be a product designer versus a product manager. And 448 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:43,919 Speaker 3: if you want to be a product manager, do you 449 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:45,679 Speaker 3: really need to know I figment. It's okay that you 450 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 3: can bounce around in it, but that's not where you're 451 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 3: going to spend most of your time. You're probably going 452 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 3: to spend most of your time in Google docs or 453 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 3: Google slides, you know what I mean. So having more 454 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:59,639 Speaker 3: of that understanding of what problems you want to solve, 455 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 3: you want to go what you're passionate about, I think 456 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 3: then the tools will start to. 457 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:06,879 Speaker 2: Move towards that. 458 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 3: You'll see where like I gave the example of product 459 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:13,680 Speaker 3: manager might be more Google sweet stuff, product designer might 460 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:19,119 Speaker 3: be more Figma, UI engineer might be a little bit 461 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,640 Speaker 3: of Figma and Java script. So you start to if 462 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 3: you data science, you might just be in some custom 463 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 3: tools that you have, or you may just be looking 464 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 3: at reports all day. So I don't think it's a 465 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 3: specific tool that I would tell somebody to go to. 466 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,400 Speaker 3: I would tell them that tool will make itself apparent 467 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 3: after you understand either what problem or what industry or 468 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 3: what users you want to be solving problems for, Like 469 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:49,880 Speaker 3: if that makes sense. 470 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 1: It makes sense, And so you know, if anybody follows you. 471 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,399 Speaker 1: And I know this well, Like if anybody follows you 472 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 1: on any social they realize you are you stay on. 473 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:04,399 Speaker 6: The PJA you out here, you're really well traveled, passport heavy. 474 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 6: I do love traveling, and so you know you I 475 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 6: mean Europe, South you know, South America, Central America is 476 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 6: South Asia, all over the place. 477 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 4: And I wonder, can. 478 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 6: You be a successful. 479 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 1: Designer with a local you know, like having not traveled, 480 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 1: especially for somebody like a Netflix. 481 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, for sure. 482 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:31,880 Speaker 3: But remember everything is relative, will like everything is relative, 483 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 3: like do you want to work? Some people don't want 484 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 3: to work at a big organization like Netflix. Some people 485 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 3: like a smaller or or some people want to be 486 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:43,639 Speaker 3: an entrepreneur. 487 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 2: So I think it's up to once again us to help. 488 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 3: People understand that you need to do that kind of 489 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 3: foundational self awareness work and then that will be the 490 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 3: pathway to everything else. And then you'll be able to say, 491 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,880 Speaker 3: because like a person who's in per se, like the Philippines, 492 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,359 Speaker 3: maybe they want to work at Netflix, maybe they don't. 493 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,120 Speaker 3: So instead of like just gauging it by the company, 494 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,200 Speaker 3: it's more of what does this. 495 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 2: Impact that you want to give? 496 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,160 Speaker 3: Look like are you putting out great work where you're 497 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,640 Speaker 3: getting replied from your users of your solving problems and 498 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 3: they're happy to use your product. You can do that 499 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 3: in a lot of companies. You don't have to just 500 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 3: be at a big fan company to do that. So 501 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,640 Speaker 3: by having that like self understanding, I think you can 502 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 3: thrive as a designer anywhere in any continent, any country, 503 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 3: any city. 504 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 1: Honestly, yeah, so let's let's so do you make me 505 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 1: bring up an AI question on this? Because you know, 506 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: AI is an incredible conversation to be having today. You 507 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,680 Speaker 1: have to have this conversation at every level of any 508 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:58,479 Speaker 1: type of technology discussion or even just life discussion these days. 509 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,959 Speaker 1: Do you consider being better travel more having a bigger 510 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 1: world view? I should say, maybe not even just travel, 511 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:13,119 Speaker 1: but a bigger worldview allows you to be more valuable 512 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:17,199 Speaker 1: more of an asset specific to design, Because if I 513 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: only have a modicum of skill, a little bit of skills, 514 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 1: there are things coming for that. And so how do 515 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: I make myself more valuable to an organization because. 516 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,160 Speaker 4: My perspective is better? That's where that question comes from. 517 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:30,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, I hate you. 518 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 3: Well, I would honestly say that the traveling I think 519 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 3: is a passion of mine, and I've found a way 520 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 3: to tie that passion into my professional life through public speaking, 521 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 3: and that's how I continue to do that. I do 522 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 3: think I grow as a person by traveling because I 523 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 3: learned more about cultures, I see more things, I'm exposed 524 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:58,880 Speaker 3: to more. So I think at the end of the day, 525 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 3: that helps me grow as funds, and me growing as 526 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 3: funds allows me to be a better designer. I think 527 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 3: that you don't have to travel to become a great designer. 528 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 3: I think the traveling does also help with your network though, 529 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 3: and I think networking is part of being a designer. 530 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 3: So I think it's more about what are you looking 531 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 3: for at that moment. I think traveling is important because 532 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,439 Speaker 3: I think being open minded and learning and seeing and 533 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 3: experiences is one of the best parts of life, you 534 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,360 Speaker 3: know what I mean. But I think there's a lot 535 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 3: of traveling that you can do just in the States 536 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 3: that a lot of people don't do. I still haven't 537 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 3: been to the Grand Canyon, you know what I mean, 538 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 3: Like that's one of the wonders of the world. I 539 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,119 Speaker 3: still haven't been to Seattle. There's so many things I 540 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 3: still haven't done. So I think the international travel is 541 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 3: a pleasure of mind. It's like a passion of mind. 542 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 3: I've been traveling since I was a kid. But I 543 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 3: think that the designers nowadays, whether you're trying to get 544 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 3: started or whether you're a senior designer, travel would just 545 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 3: be an extra part of it. Like I don't think 546 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 3: it really is is even slightly mandatory. 547 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,159 Speaker 1: You know, you've spoken that many conferences that you just 548 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 1: talked about your speaking career, which is you know, I'm 549 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,120 Speaker 1: assuming parallel to your you know. 550 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 2: Corporate career. 551 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 1: You spoken to Afrotech and other stages, big stages Afrotech 552 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 1: to Afrotech. 553 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:26,359 Speaker 3: Shout out, they gave you, honestly, part of the like 554 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:28,479 Speaker 3: to tie back into the first question that you asked me, 555 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,679 Speaker 3: A lot of the reason that I'm so proactive in 556 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 3: the community is because of the doors of Afrotech Open. 557 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:37,880 Speaker 2: Afrotech gave me a shot when I was like a 558 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 2: young young homie. 559 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:41,960 Speaker 3: I was just getting started out there in the Bay 560 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,959 Speaker 3: Area with speaking. But that was such a big stage 561 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 3: in front of so many people, and it's such a 562 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 3: credible organization that after that experience, it's just like I 563 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 3: happened to look back and that was literally five years ago. 564 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and yeah, you've done beautiful works, and so 565 00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:58,719 Speaker 1: I'm on to I want to ask you about that, 566 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 1: like how do you you choose what you're going to 567 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 1: speak about when you hit those stages. 568 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 3: So I'm in a position where I'm fortunate enough where 569 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 3: they ask me what do I want. 570 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 2: To speak about? 571 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 3: Usually, and there's different topics that I like to discuss 572 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 3: depending on who the audience would be or maybe with 573 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 3: the theme of the conferences about. 574 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 2: And that's how I gauge. 575 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 3: For instance, when I went to Japan, I did a 576 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 3: full day workshop about inclusive design. 577 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 2: When I went to bill a C. 578 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:38,959 Speaker 3: Georgia recently, I did a talk that was more about 579 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 3: business design. I've done conversations that's more just about inclusion 580 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 3: in itself or accessibility. 581 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 2: So I think it's more gauged around. 582 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 3: I'm so well versed in different things because I love 583 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 3: this stuff that I have the luxury at times to 584 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 3: pick different topics. It's always under designed to a certain extent, 585 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 3: but it's never the exact same talk or the exact 586 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 3: same slides or the exact same topic. 587 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 1: And so I mean, you know this better than most 588 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 1: like getting promoted and getting to your level has maybe 589 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: maybe more to do with how you navigate spaces and 590 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 1: your skill. It's not just about having the skill, it's 591 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:30,959 Speaker 1: politics involved. And how so how do you can you 592 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: discuss that and how what can we learn from your 593 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 1: story and how you've managed to do both well be 594 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 1: very good at what you do and manage the politics 595 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 1: of what you do. 596 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 2: That's a really good question. 597 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 3: I think you should probably say that one and ask 598 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 3: everybody that one. I would say, Man, I'm just I'm 599 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 3: just me. I'm just fonds, you know, I tell people 600 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 3: that all the time. I just this sounds cliche, but 601 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 3: I really try my best to be my authentic self. 602 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 2: I don't like when I'm not being my authentic self. 603 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 3: But I don't like when I'm switching or changing up 604 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 3: or thinking else, none of that, because that's not me. 605 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 3: Like I'm where I am because of who I am. 606 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 3: So like I spend a lot of time working on 607 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 3: my self confidence, because you really need that self confidence 608 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 3: to fight these battles every single day, Like it's hard 609 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 3: out here, so. 610 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 2: Definitely take the time too. 611 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 3: And then that self confidence comes in a lot of 612 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 3: different ways. It's not just oh, you're confident because people 613 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 3: tell you, because people give you conflidents all the time. 614 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 3: Maybe you're you're confident because you know inside you put 615 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 3: your X amount of time into this, so. 616 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 2: You're good, you know what I mean. But having that 617 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 2: type of. 618 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 3: Understanding is really important because there's going to be times 619 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,600 Speaker 3: where this journey is going to test you. And when 620 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 3: you get tested is where you now have to decide 621 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 3: what are you gonna do? And the more confident you are, 622 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 3: the greater your chances are probably succeeding through those tough 623 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 3: times because you're probably gonna be able to still must 624 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 3: to rupt that energy, still must to rupt that faith. 625 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 3: You still have that belief in yourself that you can 626 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 3: get this done as opposed to per se bowan down 627 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 3: and being a nice person, Like being a nice person 628 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 3: goes a long way, and I don't think a lot 629 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 3: of people understand that anymore so and being very humble. 630 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 3: I'm a very humble dude. I'm still down to earth man. 631 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 3: I still my feeling still get hurt. I still blushed 632 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 3: when somebody tells me something really positive about it. So 633 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 3: all of that to say is just like, remember that 634 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 3: it's about the journey, you know what I'm saying, So 635 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 3: make the journey as fun as possible, make it as 636 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 3: learn as much as you can, meet as many people, 637 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 3: help as many people as you can, you know what 638 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 3: I mean, Take as many risks as you can do. 639 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,719 Speaker 2: All of that's all, all of the part of the journey. 640 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:03,360 Speaker 3: Like you want to be able to look back on 641 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,920 Speaker 3: your career and feel like, man, I really I left 642 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,480 Speaker 3: it out there, like I left it all on the court, 643 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 3: like I gave them boards five thousand percent. That's how 644 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 3: I want to look at things. So I make sure 645 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 3: like I'm doing that. And now there's different ways that 646 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 3: I do that. And that's like I do a lot 647 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 3: of mentoring with up and coming designers. Now more people 648 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 3: reach out to me than I can meet with, but 649 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 3: the like ten twenty fifty people I might meet with 650 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 3: the year, that still makes me feel good, you know 651 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 3: what I mean. So knowing that I'm out there just 652 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 3: giving it, giving it all I got, and I think 653 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 3: that's what everybody should always strive to do, like leave 654 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:50,360 Speaker 3: it all out there every day and that would be 655 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,240 Speaker 3: enough because when you look back and just be like, yo, 656 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 3: I did the best side of dude, I did the 657 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 3: best side it did, and that feels good, like it 658 00:33:58,520 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 3: feels good to say that. 659 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 1: Black Tech Green Money is the production of Blavity, Afro 660 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,360 Speaker 1: Tech and The Black Effect podcast Network and night Heart Media. 661 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 4: It is produced by Morgan Debonne and me. 662 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,719 Speaker 1: Well Lucas, with additional production support by Kate McDonald and 663 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:24,359 Speaker 1: Sarah Ergan. 664 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,720 Speaker 4: Special thank you to Michael Davison. Love Beach. 665 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 1: Learn more about My Guess and other tech disrupt it's 666 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 1: an innovators at afrotech dot com. At the video version 667 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:35,839 Speaker 1: of this episode, we'll drop the Black Tech Green Money 668 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 1: on YouTube, So tap in enjoying Black Tech Green Money. 669 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 1: Shaw this to somebody, Go get your money, piece and 670 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:45,200 Speaker 1: love