WEBVTT - Part One: The Last Sam Bankman-Fried Episodes (secretly about Michael Lewis)

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<v Speaker 1>Also media.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey everyone, Robert Evans here with Behind the Bastards, and

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<v Speaker 2>we've got some kind of sad news today. This is

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<v Speaker 2>going to hit members of the community pretty hard. But

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<v Speaker 2>forty eight years ago, on November tenth, nineteen seventy five,

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<v Speaker 2>the SS Edmund Fitzgerald went down in Lake Superior, killing

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<v Speaker 2>all twenty nine crew members on board. This is a

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<v Speaker 2>hard time of the year for everybody here at Behind

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<v Speaker 2>the Bastards, for all of you at home, and the

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<v Speaker 2>only thing that makes it easier is the knowledge that

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<v Speaker 2>both the Russian Federation and the Chinese government have recently

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<v Speaker 2>substantially increased the sizes of their nuclear stockpile, while the

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<v Speaker 2>United States is in the process of renovating its own

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<v Speaker 2>nuclear weapons. And my hope, I think all of our hope,

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<v Speaker 2>is that the leaders of our world can kind of

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<v Speaker 2>band together in this time of conflict and sadness to

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<v Speaker 2>finally expect into the entirety of their nuclear stockpiles, detonating

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<v Speaker 2>them over Lake Superior. You know that's my hope. I

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<v Speaker 2>know it's all of your hope back at home, and

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<v Speaker 2>I really think what can carry us through this is

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<v Speaker 2>some classic MAO era propaganda posters sewing, Joe Biden, Zijen

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<v Speaker 2>Ping and Vladimir Putin walking hand in hand, surrounded by

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<v Speaker 2>a crowd of little kids in Red Guard uniforms, heading

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<v Speaker 2>towards the light of a new atomic sun, while a

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<v Speaker 2>series of mushroom clouds detonate over Lake Superior's debts. Anyway,

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<v Speaker 2>welcome to the show, Jamie. That's so.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, first of all, thank you, thank you for that.

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<v Speaker 3>I needed to hear it. I think we all the

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<v Speaker 3>image you described, and I hate that my mind went

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<v Speaker 3>here conjured the image of Paul Walker in the convertible

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<v Speaker 3>next to Brian Griffin. That's right, that's right, sort of

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<v Speaker 3>what I was picturing. The image you described has that

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<v Speaker 3>exact same and it just acts just throw someone in

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<v Speaker 3>the back seat, same exact ship.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, that's the dream, Jamie, that's the dream. God, what

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<v Speaker 2>a beautiful, beautiful dream.

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<v Speaker 3>I really think about being a member of Paul Walker's

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<v Speaker 3>family at the time that image was circular. Well, you're

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<v Speaker 3>just like.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, from your jacuzzie filled with one hundred dollars bills. Yes,

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<v Speaker 2>even so, my.

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<v Speaker 3>Loved one, my dearly departed, being thrown in a convertible

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<v Speaker 3>next to a cartoon dog. Who to add insult to

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<v Speaker 3>injury would be resurrected within months, and like Brian the

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<v Speaker 3>Dog not to Okay, Brian the Dog was resurrecrected, I

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<v Speaker 3>think on the same timeline as Jesus Christ.

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<v Speaker 2>It was like, yeah, very similar characters.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, yeah, and we can all agree that, Billow, they're

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<v Speaker 3>both mar heads and they also and they both are

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<v Speaker 3>you know, like middling authors.

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<v Speaker 2>You could say, yeah, yeah, that's fair to say. So Jamie,

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<v Speaker 2>speaking of mediocre men, how do you feel have you

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<v Speaker 2>been keeping up with the story of Bastard's pot alumni,

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<v Speaker 2>Sam Bankman Freed?

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, so I have. I I know the broad strokes,

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<v Speaker 3>but as soon as the joyous news became started coming in,

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<v Speaker 3>I knew that we were going to be doing this.

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<v Speaker 3>And I don't know any of the particulars except for

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<v Speaker 3>tweets of yours that have been algorithm to the top

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<v Speaker 3>of my feed. I'm just there's no one I would

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<v Speaker 3>rather be with to let it just wash off for me.

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<v Speaker 1>Robert Family, Robert, can I ask you to please share

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<v Speaker 1>your working title for this episode because it's funny.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's Sam Bankman, not Freed, and in parentheses because

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<v Speaker 2>he is in jail.

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<v Speaker 3>I think it's fun, and I think I think that

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<v Speaker 3>that is far superior to Sam Bankman jailed.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's not creative at all. You got to spend

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of extra words I could create.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm not interested in other perspectives on that title. I

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<v Speaker 3>think that you got it exactly right.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you, thank you. Yeah. Yeah, brevity is some bullshit.

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<v Speaker 2>As a great author once said, so Jamie, speaking of

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<v Speaker 2>great authors, eighty percent of this episode is shitting on

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<v Speaker 2>Michael Lewis, the author of The Big Shirt. Oh yeah, no,

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<v Speaker 2>we're really This is gonna be a great one for

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<v Speaker 2>the Lewis heads in the audience. Wow, okay, okay, this

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<v Speaker 2>is gonna be Oh buckle up, yeah, now this is relevant.

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<v Speaker 2>The man just said buckle up. Oh yeah, strap the

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<v Speaker 2>fuck in and down.

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<v Speaker 3>Fuck ahead, we are.

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<v Speaker 2>We are starting with Michael Lewis, author of The Big Short.

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<v Speaker 3>James, We're okay. I feel like when I recently saw

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<v Speaker 3>a picture of my three year old niece going to

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<v Speaker 3>a Wiggles concert and I just caught myself smiling in

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<v Speaker 3>the same way.

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<v Speaker 2>This is great. Yeah, this is great. So on January fifth,

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty two, Sam Bankman freed send a message to

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<v Speaker 2>one of his many signal loops. For what it's worth,

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<v Speaker 2>February eight through sixteenth, Michael Lewis is going to be

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<v Speaker 2>in the Bahamas profiling us. Now, if you haven't been

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<v Speaker 2>following this story, and if Michael Lewis is not familiar

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<v Speaker 2>to you, then you probably do remember like the most

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<v Speaker 2>famous result of one of his novels, which is the

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<v Speaker 2>movie The Big Short. This was based on a book

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<v Speaker 2>Lewis wrote about a group of traders who had the

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<v Speaker 2>foresight to predict and profit off of the two thousand

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<v Speaker 2>and eight financial crash. They realized that, like the subprime

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<v Speaker 2>loan business was like a bunch of hooey, and they

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<v Speaker 2>shorted it right, made a bunch of money while everybody

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<v Speaker 2>else lost their jobs.

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<v Speaker 3>You love to see it.

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<v Speaker 2>You love to see it. His other best known work

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<v Speaker 2>is probably Moneyball, which is about a baseball team manager

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<v Speaker 2>who uses which called saber metrics, which, without getting into it,

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<v Speaker 2>is basically being Nate Silver but also actually running a

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<v Speaker 2>sports team. Right.

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<v Speaker 3>That is also that in twenty twenty I started doing

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<v Speaker 3>this bit on Cursed Zoom comedy shows called The Boyfriend

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<v Speaker 3>Criterion Collection, and it's just like Blu Rays that are

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<v Speaker 3>in your house against your living well, Yeah, mon Ball

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<v Speaker 3>is very much a part of the boyfriend Criterion collection.

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<v Speaker 3>It's right up there with Whiplash. It's like a disaster.

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<v Speaker 1>I must say, if you, if you did not date

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<v Speaker 1>the worst man you've ever dated in your entire life

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<v Speaker 1>in twenty seventeen that was obsessed with all things Michael Lewis,

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<v Speaker 1>then were you really in Los Angeles?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah? No, that's that's true. The problematic By the way, if.

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<v Speaker 3>Your worst boyfriend couldn't read, really.

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<v Speaker 2>Think you're you're the median American and honestly don't even know.

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<v Speaker 3>Who I'm talking about, Like it's impossible to say that,

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<v Speaker 3>but I know.

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<v Speaker 2>The only non problematic piece of physical media that you

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<v Speaker 2>can have on you in your house as a boyfriend

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<v Speaker 2>is an original VHS tape of Trimmors. That's just the

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<v Speaker 2>way it works.

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<v Speaker 3>I I and I would fight with you if I didn't,

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<v Speaker 3>if I didn't feel the same way. I think that

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<v Speaker 3>that is very much as a good sign.

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<v Speaker 2>Uh huh, that's excellent, Thank you, thank you.

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<v Speaker 3>The more prominently displayed, the better.

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<v Speaker 2>To say that Michael Lewis is a famous writer or

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<v Speaker 2>famous journalist. Puts it pretty lightly. He's probably the best

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<v Speaker 2>known journalist in the country and almost certainly the wealthiest.

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<v Speaker 2>There's not a lot of competition for that, but like,

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<v Speaker 2>he's definitely in the running. He's what you'd call an

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<v Speaker 2>access journalist. Who he is somebody whose stories come from

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<v Speaker 2>his ability to get close to his subjects and just

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<v Speaker 2>kind of exist with them during a crucial period of

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<v Speaker 2>time as a fly on the wall. There's a number

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<v Speaker 2>of ways to do this. There are a couple of

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<v Speaker 2>like big Trump administration books written by journalists who basically

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<v Speaker 2>just got to sit around Trump and his White House

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<v Speaker 2>while things went insane. The route that Lewis takes is

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<v Speaker 2>to befriend the people that he's writing about. Right, He

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<v Speaker 2>is this guy and people who know him will say

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<v Speaker 2>he just kind of makes people comfortable around him. He

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<v Speaker 2>is a guy that you want to have at a party.

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<v Speaker 2>He's a he's pleasant company. Enough people have said this

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<v Speaker 2>that I assume it's true based on just like how

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<v Speaker 2>he does his stories. People he's good at putting folks

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<v Speaker 2>at ease and they don't mind him being around, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's how he gets a lot of his stories. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>as general rule, if you are in the position that

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<v Speaker 2>Sam bankman Freed and his friends who are in circa

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty two running a massive financial shell game, you

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<v Speaker 2>would be hesitant and welcome very well.

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<v Speaker 3>I think we can all agree based on kings talk

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<v Speaker 3>about a game of four D chess.

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<v Speaker 2>The last guy you might want hanging around your office

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<v Speaker 2>is a dude who could literally, like Michael Lewis could

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<v Speaker 2>literally in like the space of a phone call, get

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<v Speaker 2>articles greenlit in every newspaper in the country. Right. He

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<v Speaker 2>just is he has that kind of pull. He is

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<v Speaker 2>that reliable a seller for his stories, Like nobody would

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<v Speaker 2>not want to take a story that he had, so

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<v Speaker 2>you would want to be cautious. You would think you'd

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<v Speaker 2>want to be cautious about letting this guy into your house.

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<v Speaker 2>But there's a reason why they said yes when he

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<v Speaker 2>reached out to SBF, and it's that Michael Lewis's reputation

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<v Speaker 2>among people in the finance industry was not oh, he

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<v Speaker 2>wrote this book that's critical of us. Oh, he's this

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<v Speaker 2>guy who exposes the diret of the finance industry. It's

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<v Speaker 2>this is a guy who can make you into a celebrity.

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<v Speaker 2>And in early twenty twenty two, that was the entire

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<v Speaker 2>vision of everyone like connected business wise to Sam Bankman,

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<v Speaker 2>Freed was, we need to turn this guy into a

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<v Speaker 2>celebrity who's constantly everywhere to raise the profile of this exchange. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>They spent something like a billion dollars on a variety

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<v Speaker 2>of different corporate and celebrity endorsements. Of the nine billion

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<v Speaker 2>that was missing, about a billion went towards shit to

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<v Speaker 2>boost FTX and to boost Sam's profile.

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<v Speaker 3>Right, I'm sorry, where's that. You gotta spend money to

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<v Speaker 3>make money, I guess you because spent ten billion to

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<v Speaker 3>make nothing. To go to jail. You have to see

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<v Speaker 3>this has been ten billion dollars to go to jail.

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<v Speaker 2>That's what I'm saying, to go to to go to

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<v Speaker 2>Forever prison, Shamie. Let's be honest about this.

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<v Speaker 3>He's going to. I for every time I've seen Forever prison,

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<v Speaker 3>very often. For you, I hear it in the cadence

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<v Speaker 3>of the Forever Purge trailer. You're like, Oh, it's the

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<v Speaker 3>Forever prison.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that is where he's going. And that's you know again,

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<v Speaker 2>everyone is kind of cut ties. Everyone legitimate has cut

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<v Speaker 2>ties with not just Sam, but like Crypto in general.

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<v Speaker 2>In the wake of Sam's collapse, But there was about

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<v Speaker 2>a year and a half period where like every bank

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<v Speaker 2>was looking into it, every tech company was putting shit

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<v Speaker 2>on the blockchain. The last kind of holdout, and the

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<v Speaker 2>reason why Sam put so much money into this was politicians. Right.

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<v Speaker 2>There were a few who would cut but like most

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<v Speaker 2>people who were in politics would not even take donations

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<v Speaker 2>directly from crypto, right, you had to launder that shit.

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<v Speaker 2>And Sam was looking to buy himself a sizable chunk

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<v Speaker 2>of Congress so that he could make sure that regulations

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<v Speaker 2>on crypto favored his company specifically, which is why he

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<v Speaker 2>did stuff like you know, he spent tens of millions

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<v Speaker 2>of dollars getting Tom Brady and Giselle Bunchen to like

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<v Speaker 2>pretend to be his friends. He sat down next to

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<v Speaker 2>Bill Clinton on fucking stage in a very cringey interview.

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<v Speaker 2>He paid Larry Davis to make a Super Bowl lad

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<v Speaker 2>But all of that, the potential, all of that had

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<v Speaker 2>to legitimize him paled in comparison to having the big

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<v Speaker 2>short dude treat you like a financial genius. Right, If

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<v Speaker 2>Michael Lewis treats you like Michael Burry, who's one of

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<v Speaker 2>the characters from the Big short who became a big

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<v Speaker 2>name after Lewis wrote this book. If he's like, this

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<v Speaker 2>guy is that kind of financial genius, then everybody's going

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<v Speaker 2>to start taking your calls, even people who like have

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<v Speaker 2>been hiding from Crypto because they don't they're worried that

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<v Speaker 2>what happened would happen right, that you'd get ten million

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<v Speaker 2>in donations, they have to pay them back because it

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<v Speaker 2>turned out that it was a con man.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, there's there's a note of it that it

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<v Speaker 3>almost reminds me when like Errol Morris like profiled and

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<v Speaker 3>worked for Elizabeth Holmes. You're just like, it's that level

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<v Speaker 3>of profile versus l.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, this turns you into somebody who's like who can

0:11:53.840 --> 0:11:56.600
<v Speaker 2>be taken seriously because that's what who Lewis is, right,

0:11:56.600 --> 0:11:59.000
<v Speaker 2>he is that big a deal. I'm not like puffing

0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:00.640
<v Speaker 2>him up. He doesn't need it right now.

0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:03.920
<v Speaker 3>He is people to care about Moneyball the most, the

0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:06.439
<v Speaker 3>most boring ass thing I've ever heard about my life.

0:12:06.480 --> 0:12:09.600
<v Speaker 2>Well, and that's the thing. He is one of these guys.

0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:11.800
<v Speaker 2>He's maybe the main character of this episode. I wouldn't

0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:13.840
<v Speaker 2>call him quite a bastard, but one of the things

0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:15.600
<v Speaker 2>you have to give him is. He is legitimately a

0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:18.040
<v Speaker 2>very good writer. There's no other way you get people

0:12:18.040 --> 0:12:20.760
<v Speaker 2>to give a shit about Moneyball. He's like, I read

0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:23.720
<v Speaker 2>his whole Sam Bankman Freed book. I think it's bullshit,

0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:25.960
<v Speaker 2>but I didn't. I didn't get bored at any point.

0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:27.560
<v Speaker 2>You know, is at a pace a piece of writing,

0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:31.120
<v Speaker 2>you know. So he decides to come knocking. Sam is

0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:33.800
<v Speaker 2>immediately on board. All of their PR people are on board.

0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:36.840
<v Speaker 2>Not everyone at FTX is on board. Carolin Edison, who

0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:39.480
<v Speaker 2>is his on again, off again girlfriend who testified against

0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:42.880
<v Speaker 2>him repeatedly. She is running Alameda, which is the company

0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:47.040
<v Speaker 2>that bankrupts everything that he is illegally funneling consumer deposits into.

0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:50.480
<v Speaker 2>She is basically like the and she does not like

0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:54.400
<v Speaker 2>the idea of having Michael Lewis around. Now. She can't

0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:57.120
<v Speaker 2>really confront Sam Bankman Freed when she has a bad idea.

0:12:57.200 --> 0:12:59.120
<v Speaker 2>Nobody can, so she just kind of hedges it and

0:12:59.160 --> 0:13:03.120
<v Speaker 2>says the signal chat makes sense. I feel like my

0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:06.080
<v Speaker 2>instincts are more towards under the radar, but I might

0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:09.640
<v Speaker 2>just be irrationally biased towards that in general. And then

0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:13.000
<v Speaker 2>like an emoji of a face sticking its tongue out,

0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:19.960
<v Speaker 2>and Sam replies, Sam, except exactly the opposite that, right, like.

0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:22.840
<v Speaker 3>You know you're down bad if you're asking Sam Bankreant

0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:26.600
<v Speaker 3>Freed to make sense. Yeah, it's challenging. Oh god, that's

0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:29.200
<v Speaker 3>such I mean, I don't know, I know we've talked

0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:31.800
<v Speaker 3>about her in the past, but that's like a what

0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:33.079
<v Speaker 3>a mess, what a nightmare.

0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:35.480
<v Speaker 2>She's in a rough situation. And he will talk a

0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:37.240
<v Speaker 2>lot about how he treats her in this. But Will

0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:40.560
<v Speaker 2>mccaskell is also in that signal chat, and Will is

0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:44.080
<v Speaker 2>basically the founder. He's not like literally the founder, but

0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:46.520
<v Speaker 2>he is the founder of what is most commonly talked

0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:50.000
<v Speaker 2>about as the effect of altruism movement, and definitely its figurehead. Right.

0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:53.640
<v Speaker 2>He is the big guy. He's this Oxford professor who

0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:56.800
<v Speaker 2>he pills Sam Bankman Freed on the idea, and his

0:13:56.960 --> 0:13:59.160
<v Speaker 2>response is kind of I think part of why this

0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:02.360
<v Speaker 2>winds up going down. He says, I think either approach

0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:04.880
<v Speaker 2>is reasonable, should just be a deliberate, coordinated plan. But

0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:06.480
<v Speaker 2>if a whole bunch of attention is going to be

0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:09.360
<v Speaker 2>on FTX, Sam and EA, whatever happens, then getting ahead

0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:13.000
<v Speaker 2>of the game and controlling the narrative is necessary, yep,

0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:16.440
<v Speaker 2>responded Sam, and they did it. Michael Lewis spends like

0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:18.800
<v Speaker 2>a year with this guy, like he spends a lot

0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:23.200
<v Speaker 2>of time around them. Everyone's very excited because what happened

0:14:23.280 --> 0:14:27.080
<v Speaker 2>last year is Sam's world collapses and he gets charged

0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:30.680
<v Speaker 2>with like seven felonies. And then right afterwards, Michael Lewis

0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:32.760
<v Speaker 2>is like, by the way, I've been basically living with

0:14:32.840 --> 0:14:35.400
<v Speaker 2>him for a year, and everyone's like, oh shit, this

0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:38.560
<v Speaker 2>could be pretty good because like this guy can write.

0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:42.520
<v Speaker 2>He's been front set, he's written about a financial collapse before.

0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:45.400
<v Speaker 2>He's got front seat tickets to this whole thing. And

0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:50.120
<v Speaker 2>then the book comes out, and unfortunately for Lewis, the

0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:52.640
<v Speaker 2>book comes out, he times the release right for when

0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:55.360
<v Speaker 2>the court case starts, so we get all of this

0:14:55.720 --> 0:14:57.960
<v Speaker 2>right alongside his book. We get all of these signal

0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:00.280
<v Speaker 2>texts and stuff that were not in his book book,

0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:03.400
<v Speaker 2>and kind of the overwhelming thing that you see when

0:15:03.440 --> 0:15:05.440
<v Speaker 2>you compare what comes out in the court case what

0:15:05.480 --> 0:15:07.400
<v Speaker 2>comes out in the testimony of as Friends to the

0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:10.160
<v Speaker 2>text of Lewis's book, is that like, oh, Michael got

0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:14.640
<v Speaker 2>kind of fucking conned by this dude, right, Oh yeah,

0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:17.040
<v Speaker 2>Like he fell for it.

0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:20.840
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, And I mean it speaks to the level of

0:15:20.880 --> 0:15:25.240
<v Speaker 3>confidence one would have to have in their own reporting

0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:29.120
<v Speaker 3>to time it with yep the trial, because if you

0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:32.120
<v Speaker 3>had even a remote feeling that you have got you

0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:34.880
<v Speaker 3>had gotten it wrong, I would be like release it

0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:37.880
<v Speaker 3>a year after the trial, like bury it in the area.

0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:41.040
<v Speaker 2>I can see if you're if you're just some journalists

0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:43.560
<v Speaker 2>and this is your first book or you just don't

0:15:43.600 --> 0:15:45.920
<v Speaker 2>have you're not like a huge hit. So like you

0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:48.720
<v Speaker 2>are very Your publisher has a lot of power and

0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:50.520
<v Speaker 2>they're like, we want this to drop when the case does,

0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:52.800
<v Speaker 2>because that's when it'll sell best. I get that you

0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:56.000
<v Speaker 2>might not have the suction necessary to move it. Michael

0:15:56.040 --> 0:15:58.520
<v Speaker 2>Lewis can say we are putting this out this day

0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:01.920
<v Speaker 2>and like, suck my dick. I'm Michael Lewis. It'll make

0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:05.520
<v Speaker 2>you money, right, And he doesn't, which which suggests he

0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:08.800
<v Speaker 2>has the same kind of hubris that Sam Bankman Freed

0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:12.200
<v Speaker 2>did in a lot of ways. So to give you

0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:15.400
<v Speaker 2>an example of how emotionally involved Lewis is in this case,

0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:17.360
<v Speaker 2>here's a good write up on the court case by

0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:20.360
<v Speaker 2>a journalist who was there during the trial, which was

0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:23.840
<v Speaker 2>not filmed. Writing for Jacobin, and this is how they

0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:27.800
<v Speaker 2>describe the devastating cross examination of Bankman Freed, who again

0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:30.640
<v Speaker 2>chose to take the stand in his own defense despite

0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:35.200
<v Speaker 2>every expert saying absolutely never do this. Quote across the

0:16:35.240 --> 0:16:37.760
<v Speaker 2>aisle for me and the section reserve for friends and family.

0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:41.400
<v Speaker 2>I could see Sam's parents growing increasingly agitated, his mom

0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:44.520
<v Speaker 2>visibly shaking two rows behind them. I couldn't help but

0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:47.760
<v Speaker 2>notice author Michael Lewis leaning forward, arms draped over the

0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:50.080
<v Speaker 2>bench in front of him, with his head down between

0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:50.920
<v Speaker 2>his arms.

0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:53.880
<v Speaker 3>Nobody expects Michael Lewis in the court.

0:16:54.040 --> 0:16:58.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I you know, I do actually have I

0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:00.920
<v Speaker 2>don't think they're very good people, but I have sympathy

0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:04.600
<v Speaker 2>for Sam's parents. This is like a nightmare if like

0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:07.000
<v Speaker 2>to know that your kid is going to forever prison,

0:17:07.200 --> 0:17:10.560
<v Speaker 2>even if it's totally their faults.

0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:15.119
<v Speaker 3>My empathy only goes so far. But also, like, what

0:17:15.280 --> 0:17:17.240
<v Speaker 3>a scene, What a fucking scene.

0:17:17.320 --> 0:17:22.399
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely phenomenal. Yeah, terrific. Can't wait for Jonah Hill to

0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:25.040
<v Speaker 2>start as Sam Bankman Freed in the movie based on this.

0:17:26.480 --> 0:17:29.800
<v Speaker 3>No, I really don't want.

0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:31.920
<v Speaker 2>No, No, there's no one I want to see play

0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:35.000
<v Speaker 2>him in a movie. Just do him. Like Maris and Frasier,

0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:36.320
<v Speaker 2>have him always be off.

0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:44.440
<v Speaker 3>That would be oh, I love yeah, like the Parents

0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:47.760
<v Speaker 3>and Charlie Brown, Heather Sinclaire of Degrassi.

0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:52.439
<v Speaker 2>And you know what, cast David Hyde Pierce as Michael Lewis.

0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:55.879
<v Speaker 2>Then we got a movie. Then we got a fucking film.

0:17:56.119 --> 0:17:59.840
<v Speaker 3>Then we got I mean, if if this whole ordeal

0:18:00.600 --> 0:18:05.800
<v Speaker 3>results in David Hype Pierce winning an oscar a.

0:18:05.760 --> 0:18:08.440
<v Speaker 2>Bad absolutely, absolutely.

0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:10.320
<v Speaker 3>There's way is good.

0:18:10.600 --> 0:18:13.080
<v Speaker 2>There's no way it's good. Yes, you know.

0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:15.840
<v Speaker 3>And and it's possible that Adam McKay in an effort

0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:19.439
<v Speaker 3>to course directing, endorse on sure Adam McKay is, like,

0:18:20.119 --> 0:18:22.720
<v Speaker 3>he absolutely could, and he's and he would need to

0:18:22.720 --> 0:18:24.800
<v Speaker 3>course correct on the Michael Lewis in the first place

0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:27.040
<v Speaker 3>for having directed The Big Short. It's a great move

0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:31.120
<v Speaker 3>for everyone. We could make everyone's agent in the situation.

0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:35.640
<v Speaker 2>You're gonna be rich, Jamie, I'm gonna be fucking rich. Yeah.

0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:39.360
<v Speaker 2>In in interviews he gave after the book came out

0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:43.200
<v Speaker 2>and the trial started, Lewis framed his book Going Infinite

0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:46.520
<v Speaker 2>about Sam Bankmanfried as a letter to the jury, which

0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:49.359
<v Speaker 2>is like kind of nonsense, because obviously the jury is

0:18:49.400 --> 0:18:51.639
<v Speaker 2>never allowed to read a book about the guy that

0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:54.359
<v Speaker 2>they're going on a trial about, and the judge specifically

0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:58.200
<v Speaker 2>instructed them not to. There's an interview with sixty minutes,

0:18:58.240 --> 0:19:00.520
<v Speaker 2>which is really something we will hear some clips from

0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:03.359
<v Speaker 2>it later. But in that interview, Lewis explained, I mean,

0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:05.439
<v Speaker 2>there's going to be this trial, and the lawyers are

0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:07.600
<v Speaker 2>going to tell two stories, and so there's a story

0:19:07.640 --> 0:19:10.320
<v Speaker 2>war going on in the courtroom, and I think every

0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:12.680
<v Speaker 2>war and I think neither one of those stories is

0:19:12.720 --> 0:19:15.280
<v Speaker 2>as good as the one I have. And like I

0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:18.360
<v Speaker 2>on one hand, yes, of course you're right, because you're

0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:20.520
<v Speaker 2>a better writer than any lawyer is going to be.

0:19:20.560 --> 0:19:23.000
<v Speaker 2>But on the other hand, this isn't a story. It's

0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:26.159
<v Speaker 2>just a question of what happened, Michael Lewis, and what

0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:29.280
<v Speaker 2>happened is massive fraud, and you don't put that in

0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:29.760
<v Speaker 2>your book.

0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:33.480
<v Speaker 3>That's so I mean to hear. I mean, I guess

0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:37.040
<v Speaker 3>I can be of many minds about characterizing it as

0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:39.639
<v Speaker 3>a story war, because that is like just how history

0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:42.480
<v Speaker 3>is written, and it's kind of almost refreshing to hear

0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:44.960
<v Speaker 3>someone refer it to as like, well, whoever could write

0:19:45.000 --> 0:19:49.760
<v Speaker 3>the better story? That's will We'll end up having the

0:19:49.800 --> 0:19:53.520
<v Speaker 3>historical precedent, but interesting that it would be said out

0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:54.280
<v Speaker 3>loud in that way.

0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:58.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and again I want to reiterate, while Michael is

0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:00.240
<v Speaker 2>the main character here, he's not like he's he's not

0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:02.760
<v Speaker 2>a bastard. He's not someone who's like impact on the

0:20:02.800 --> 0:20:05.480
<v Speaker 2>world has been monstrous as far as I've ever heard,

0:20:05.760 --> 0:20:08.760
<v Speaker 2>He's a reasonably nice person. We'll definitely get him being

0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:10.560
<v Speaker 2>mean in a couple of points here, but it's nothing

0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:13.119
<v Speaker 2>that I would like call someone that, like one of

0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:16.720
<v Speaker 2>history's greatest monster over But this is Bankman free. It

0:20:16.800 --> 0:20:19.399
<v Speaker 2>is a bastard. And so I think talking about the

0:20:19.440 --> 0:20:21.520
<v Speaker 2>way in which he kind of has Lewis wrapped around

0:20:21.560 --> 0:20:23.960
<v Speaker 2>his finger, in the degree to which Lewis tortures his

0:20:24.080 --> 0:20:27.199
<v Speaker 2>own logic and prose in order to ignore that is

0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:31.480
<v Speaker 2>just fascinating. So with that in mind, let's start with

0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:34.159
<v Speaker 2>a little bit more of Michael's backstory, because that is

0:20:34.200 --> 0:20:37.719
<v Speaker 2>important to understand why he falls for this. Michael Monroe

0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:42.680
<v Speaker 2>Lewis was born on October fifteenth, nineteen sixty in New Orleans. Now,

0:20:42.760 --> 0:20:45.320
<v Speaker 2>from the beginning, his life was about as far from

0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:48.600
<v Speaker 2>working class as you get, and to his credit, Lewis

0:20:48.640 --> 0:20:50.440
<v Speaker 2>does not deny this whenever he's.

0:20:50.280 --> 0:20:53.240
<v Speaker 3>Asked to the only thing you can't do, I guess, yeah, you've.

0:20:53.080 --> 0:20:55.240
<v Speaker 2>Got to be open about it. Here's him talking to

0:20:55.280 --> 0:20:58.679
<v Speaker 2>the Guardian Lewis's family stat at the very top of

0:20:58.720 --> 0:21:02.200
<v Speaker 2>the Wasp Aristocra in New Orleans. I was so inside,

0:21:02.240 --> 0:21:04.680
<v Speaker 2>he told me. I was literally trained how to sit

0:21:04.760 --> 0:21:07.119
<v Speaker 2>on a throne when I was fifteen years old, because

0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:09.439
<v Speaker 2>it was crowned the king of the Carnival Ball, an

0:21:09.520 --> 0:21:12.720
<v Speaker 2>organization that didn't allow black people, didn't allow Jews. I

0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:15.600
<v Speaker 2>would go from baseball practice to sceptor waving lessons. I

0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:18.560
<v Speaker 2>was born into that world. Being an insider in New

0:21:18.640 --> 0:21:21.199
<v Speaker 2>Orleans made him feel like an outsider everywhere else, and

0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:27.120
<v Speaker 2>not always to his disadvantage. And first off, wow, that's

0:21:27.800 --> 0:21:28.840
<v Speaker 2>quite a backstory.

0:21:29.640 --> 0:21:31.960
<v Speaker 3>Thank you, King, I do you, King?

0:21:32.359 --> 0:21:34.480
<v Speaker 2>I do think I want to point out something here,

0:21:34.520 --> 0:21:36.760
<v Speaker 2>which is where I don't think he's obvious skating, but

0:21:36.800 --> 0:21:39.520
<v Speaker 2>I think he's missing something about his own what his

0:21:39.600 --> 0:21:42.320
<v Speaker 2>background has done for him. Because I don't I'm not

0:21:42.320 --> 0:21:43.800
<v Speaker 2>going to question him when he says it made him

0:21:43.840 --> 0:21:47.240
<v Speaker 2>feel like an outsider. But I think it's very clear

0:21:47.320 --> 0:21:49.520
<v Speaker 2>that this is a guy whose work is defined by

0:21:49.520 --> 0:21:52.840
<v Speaker 2>his ability to make himself into an insider. And I

0:21:52.880 --> 0:21:54.879
<v Speaker 2>think that's a big part of why he's able to

0:21:54.880 --> 0:21:57.199
<v Speaker 2>do that, is he grows up in the middle of

0:21:57.200 --> 0:22:00.000
<v Speaker 2>wealth and power, right where it's the air that he breathed.

0:22:00.600 --> 0:22:03.440
<v Speaker 2>And you don't notice this if like you grow up

0:22:03.520 --> 0:22:06.560
<v Speaker 2>working class and don't know any super rich people. But

0:22:06.600 --> 0:22:09.880
<v Speaker 2>when you meet some people who were born crazy rich,

0:22:10.560 --> 0:22:13.439
<v Speaker 2>you note that, like a lot of them have this

0:22:13.440 --> 0:22:16.440
<v Speaker 2>this way of making of making themselves feel like they

0:22:16.440 --> 0:22:19.320
<v Speaker 2>belong anywhere, right, It's why they can get away with

0:22:19.359 --> 0:22:21.400
<v Speaker 2>so much, Like even if they're totally out of their depth.

0:22:21.400 --> 0:22:23.600
<v Speaker 2>There's this kind of expectation you get when you grow

0:22:23.680 --> 0:22:25.960
<v Speaker 2>up hyper rich that the world is going to show

0:22:25.960 --> 0:22:28.360
<v Speaker 2>you a degree of deference when you know people who

0:22:28.400 --> 0:22:31.520
<v Speaker 2>have family fortunes behind them, you know what I'm talking about, right,

0:22:31.520 --> 0:22:33.440
<v Speaker 2>Like it's the reason they are never going to get

0:22:33.920 --> 0:22:35.960
<v Speaker 2>like carded to see if they're a member of a

0:22:35.960 --> 0:22:38.720
<v Speaker 2>place that's members only, right, because they they have that

0:22:38.920 --> 0:22:42.280
<v Speaker 2>way about them. And I think that's part of how as.

0:22:42.000 --> 0:22:45.199
<v Speaker 3>Receptible thing well, And I do think that there is

0:22:46.000 --> 0:22:47.520
<v Speaker 3>I mean, and it sounds like what you're getting at

0:22:47.600 --> 0:22:51.080
<v Speaker 3>is like there is if you can get someone who

0:22:51.160 --> 0:22:55.240
<v Speaker 3>grew up in those circumstances on the side of fucking decency.

0:22:55.680 --> 0:22:56.880
<v Speaker 2>There is a huge.

0:22:56.680 --> 0:22:58.920
<v Speaker 3>Value to having someone like that who knows how to

0:22:58.960 --> 0:23:01.399
<v Speaker 3>navigate those places on your side. But if they're but

0:23:01.400 --> 0:23:04.280
<v Speaker 3>but also, you know, to an extent and a liability

0:23:04.320 --> 0:23:09.320
<v Speaker 3>because you never know, you know. I'm curious what endears

0:23:09.440 --> 0:23:11.760
<v Speaker 3>him to Sam.

0:23:11.359 --> 0:23:14.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we'll get to that. So he goes to Princeton

0:23:14.440 --> 0:23:18.600
<v Speaker 2>University and he graduates kum laude, which which means pretty

0:23:18.640 --> 0:23:22.320
<v Speaker 2>good grades in nineteen eighty two. His senior thesis is

0:23:22.320 --> 0:23:26.120
<v Speaker 2>on Donatello, a prominent ninja turtle. And when he's in college,

0:23:26.160 --> 0:23:28.959
<v Speaker 2>he's a member of Princeton's Ivy Club, which is the

0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:31.760
<v Speaker 2>oldest eating club in the school. Now, if you're not

0:23:31.800 --> 0:23:33.880
<v Speaker 2>a blue blood, you probably are like, what the fuck

0:23:34.000 --> 0:23:37.080
<v Speaker 2>is an eating club? These are private dining halls that

0:23:37.119 --> 0:23:39.879
<v Speaker 2>are also kind of social clubs where upper classmen go

0:23:39.960 --> 0:23:41.760
<v Speaker 2>to get nicer food. There's like nine of them, I

0:23:41.760 --> 0:23:45.399
<v Speaker 2>think on campus, the Ivy Club at Princeton, or like

0:23:45.520 --> 0:23:50.240
<v Speaker 2>everywhere at Princeton. There's other fancy boys schools have these.

0:23:50.640 --> 0:23:55.080
<v Speaker 1>Robert, this is full count the clue.

0:23:55.760 --> 0:23:58.960
<v Speaker 3>I was like eating club, the like eating club to

0:23:59.040 --> 0:24:05.320
<v Speaker 3>me is like drive through Taco bell one am starving. Yeah, wow,

0:24:05.640 --> 0:24:08.359
<v Speaker 3>eating club eating.

0:24:07.640 --> 0:24:10.119
<v Speaker 2>What they Sophie, you said, this is full cunt. But

0:24:10.359 --> 0:24:12.680
<v Speaker 2>it did not admit women until nineteen ninety one.

0:24:13.000 --> 0:24:17.760
<v Speaker 1>The adacy to not let a woman go into hut.

0:24:18.880 --> 0:24:22.680
<v Speaker 3>Something that cunty. It just doesn't make sense.

0:24:23.080 --> 0:24:25.960
<v Speaker 2>And it's it's also very funny that like or not funny,

0:24:25.960 --> 0:24:28.680
<v Speaker 2>but it's noteworthy. In this interview, it talks about how

0:24:28.720 --> 0:24:32.760
<v Speaker 2>he was at the Ivy Club. Right when he talks about,

0:24:32.960 --> 0:24:35.359
<v Speaker 2>you know, his upbringing. He's like, yeah, this like this

0:24:35.480 --> 0:24:37.679
<v Speaker 2>contest I was in. You couldn't You couldn't be in

0:24:37.680 --> 0:24:40.320
<v Speaker 2>this club if you were like black or Jewish. He

0:24:40.320 --> 0:24:42.520
<v Speaker 2>doesn't mentioned that the Ivy Club doesn't admit women. I

0:24:42.520 --> 0:24:46.199
<v Speaker 2>think that is maybe interesting. It's also worth noting that

0:24:46.240 --> 0:24:49.639
<v Speaker 2>the Ivy Club. F Scott Fitzgerald writes about the Ivy

0:24:49.640 --> 0:24:53.720
<v Speaker 2>Club and calls it f Scott Fitzgerald calls it detached

0:24:53.800 --> 0:24:58.960
<v Speaker 2>and breathlessly aristocratic, and Scott Fitzgerald says that about your

0:24:59.000 --> 0:25:01.720
<v Speaker 2>blue Blood Club, like, my god.

0:25:02.200 --> 0:25:07.040
<v Speaker 3>I love that. Wow. What a treat, what a treat?

0:25:07.359 --> 0:25:10.960
<v Speaker 3>If yeah, if f Scott Fitzgerald is the one experiencing

0:25:11.080 --> 0:25:19.320
<v Speaker 3>like moral clarity about about your weird group. That's challenging. Now.

0:25:19.720 --> 0:25:22.399
<v Speaker 2>While Lewis had a passion for art history, he had

0:25:22.440 --> 0:25:26.040
<v Speaker 2>a bigger passion in life and it's stacking motherfucking paper.

0:25:26.480 --> 0:25:29.440
<v Speaker 2>So he goes to the London School of Economics next

0:25:29.440 --> 0:25:32.720
<v Speaker 2>and eventually joins the bond desk at Salomon Brothers. He's

0:25:32.720 --> 0:25:36.800
<v Speaker 2>in like the London branch of the Salomon Brothers. Uh no, no, no, no,

0:25:36.880 --> 0:25:39.280
<v Speaker 2>he's just making Dalla dollar bills, y'all.

0:25:39.400 --> 0:25:42.520
<v Speaker 1>Robert Dalla dollar Bill's time is happening now for us

0:25:42.560 --> 0:25:43.040
<v Speaker 1>as well.

0:25:43.160 --> 0:25:46.280
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, speaking of Dalla dollar bills, buy some of

0:25:46.320 --> 0:25:49.080
<v Speaker 2>these products and we think about things.

0:25:56.440 --> 0:25:58.879
<v Speaker 1>I have a request for the listeners, which is not

0:25:59.000 --> 0:26:02.119
<v Speaker 1>something that I often. I don't I don't ask, I

0:26:02.160 --> 0:26:05.280
<v Speaker 1>don't ask anything of our listeners, just that just that

0:26:05.359 --> 0:26:10.000
<v Speaker 1>they're happy. But if somebody could please make a dating

0:26:10.119 --> 0:26:14.639
<v Speaker 1>profile for Michael Lewis as an art graphic, I just it,

0:26:14.920 --> 0:26:16.960
<v Speaker 1>just please for me?

0:26:17.160 --> 0:26:20.360
<v Speaker 2>Oh man, Okay, that's that's good. You've got You've got

0:26:20.359 --> 0:26:23.560
<v Speaker 2>two different requests this week, listeners. One is that propaganda

0:26:23.600 --> 0:26:30.080
<v Speaker 2>poster and the other is Michael Lewis dating profile. So Lewis.

0:26:30.560 --> 0:26:32.760
<v Speaker 2>Lewis is, you know, an investment banker for just a

0:26:32.800 --> 0:26:35.000
<v Speaker 2>few years. Actually you know who? He reminds me of,

0:26:35.080 --> 0:26:35.760
<v Speaker 2>Oh okay, just.

0:26:35.760 --> 0:26:37.760
<v Speaker 3>You know, hoping your toes in it. Then that kind

0:26:37.760 --> 0:26:41.480
<v Speaker 3>of doesn't It's like the just the tip of financial crime.

0:26:41.800 --> 0:26:44.919
<v Speaker 2>He's in there at eighty seven, the market crashes and

0:26:44.960 --> 0:26:47.440
<v Speaker 2>he makes a pivot away from like doing that as

0:26:47.480 --> 0:26:50.399
<v Speaker 2>a job, and he writes a book called Liar's Poker

0:26:50.480 --> 0:26:53.480
<v Speaker 2>about the investment you know, Bang the stockbroker. That like

0:26:53.520 --> 0:26:56.879
<v Speaker 2>that kind of life that makes a shitload of money, right,

0:26:56.920 --> 0:26:58.280
<v Speaker 2>this is we'll talk about it in a second, but

0:26:58.320 --> 0:27:01.400
<v Speaker 2>like I want to he minds me in this trajectory.

0:27:01.440 --> 0:27:02.840
<v Speaker 2>Do you know anything about Michael Crichton?

0:27:03.920 --> 0:27:07.760
<v Speaker 3>Uh? Oh, I mean I yeah, Peaks and Valleys. I

0:27:07.880 --> 0:27:11.040
<v Speaker 3>had no attachment to him, but I know many do.

0:27:11.160 --> 0:27:14.679
<v Speaker 3>And like, yeah, the back half of Michael Crichton pretty

0:27:14.720 --> 0:27:15.560
<v Speaker 3>fucking brutal.

0:27:16.000 --> 0:27:18.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm pretty pretty brutal. I'm not talking about like

0:27:18.440 --> 0:27:21.600
<v Speaker 2>his actual career as a writer as much as Crichton

0:27:21.800 --> 0:27:25.200
<v Speaker 2>goes to Harvard Medical School and becomes a doctor. Most

0:27:25.240 --> 0:27:28.040
<v Speaker 2>people are I don't think I actually know this, but

0:27:28.200 --> 0:27:31.120
<v Speaker 2>like he was an actual MD. But he doesn't really

0:27:31.200 --> 0:27:33.680
<v Speaker 2>do the job, Like he gets his MD and then

0:27:33.720 --> 0:27:36.800
<v Speaker 2>he quits to write books like some of which have

0:27:36.800 --> 0:27:38.919
<v Speaker 2>a medical like he's the creator of ER and he

0:27:38.960 --> 0:27:41.520
<v Speaker 2>gets criticized by doctors who are like, oh you just

0:27:41.680 --> 0:27:44.920
<v Speaker 2>creator of ER. Yeah, Michael Crichton created a r Yes.

0:27:45.000 --> 0:27:47.320
<v Speaker 3>Oh okay, sorry, I thought we were talking about Michael Lewis. Yes,

0:27:47.960 --> 0:27:48.560
<v Speaker 3>I knew Michael.

0:27:48.840 --> 0:27:50.639
<v Speaker 2>They have a similar They have a similar kind of

0:27:50.680 --> 0:27:52.959
<v Speaker 2>trajectory where they go to school for this thing they

0:27:53.000 --> 0:27:54.919
<v Speaker 2>do like a teeny amount of it, just dip their

0:27:54.960 --> 0:27:57.280
<v Speaker 2>toes in and then they get famous writing these books

0:27:57.280 --> 0:27:59.520
<v Speaker 2>that are inspired by it. Right. I just find that interesting.

0:28:00.119 --> 0:28:03.320
<v Speaker 2>So to give you a further idea of Lewis's family background,

0:28:03.320 --> 0:28:07.560
<v Speaker 2>Liar's Poker, which is semi autobiographical, revolves around a scene

0:28:07.560 --> 0:28:10.560
<v Speaker 2>where Michael Lewis is invited to a banquet hosted by

0:28:10.600 --> 0:28:13.639
<v Speaker 2>the Queen Mother while he's working in London. He gets

0:28:13.640 --> 0:28:17.920
<v Speaker 2>a seat there because of his cousin, Baroness Linda von Stauffenberg,

0:28:18.520 --> 0:28:21.520
<v Speaker 2>and she seats next to the manager of Salomon Brothers,

0:28:21.680 --> 0:28:27.879
<v Speaker 2>which is how he gets his job. Word salad crabs

0:28:27.920 --> 0:28:31.159
<v Speaker 2>don't have bluer blood than this man like that is

0:28:31.520 --> 0:28:33.879
<v Speaker 2>that is the bluest you fucking get.

0:28:34.560 --> 0:28:37.119
<v Speaker 3>If your cousin's a baroness and you're in your like

0:28:37.280 --> 0:28:40.360
<v Speaker 3>late twenties, y, what if you know.

0:28:40.560 --> 0:28:46.880
<v Speaker 2>A baroness, you are like, that's okay. Yeah. Yeah. So

0:28:47.320 --> 0:28:50.520
<v Speaker 2>Lewis's depiction of Wall Street guys from Liar's Poker on

0:28:51.040 --> 0:28:53.840
<v Speaker 2>because he writes a few books about Wall Street types

0:28:53.840 --> 0:28:57.160
<v Speaker 2>because he knows them, right, It's generally noted as not

0:28:57.240 --> 0:28:59.800
<v Speaker 2>being flattering, but I think that's by people who like

0:29:00.080 --> 0:29:02.720
<v Speaker 2>a very naive view of what's unflattering because his Wall

0:29:02.720 --> 0:29:05.440
<v Speaker 2>Street guys they curse a lot. They use phrases like

0:29:05.480 --> 0:29:09.280
<v Speaker 2>big swing and dick. They're like they're like kind of gross,

0:29:09.400 --> 0:29:12.320
<v Speaker 2>but in a way that's glamorous, right, Like I.

0:29:12.280 --> 0:29:14.720
<v Speaker 3>Mean I feel like it's like the Glengarry Glenn Ross,

0:29:14.800 --> 0:29:18.480
<v Speaker 3>Yes exactly, yeah, talking shit, yeah yeah yeah.

0:29:18.680 --> 0:29:20.840
<v Speaker 2>It like it is a kind of thing where you

0:29:20.880 --> 0:29:24.280
<v Speaker 2>could say he's not glamorizing it, but he's absolutely making

0:29:24.280 --> 0:29:27.000
<v Speaker 2>it look a way that makes more young men greeting

0:29:27.080 --> 0:29:29.240
<v Speaker 2>men when to become stock traders. And to extend the

0:29:29.320 --> 0:29:33.520
<v Speaker 2>Michael Crichton comparison, it is Liar's Poker is generally agreed

0:29:33.520 --> 0:29:36.000
<v Speaker 2>to have had a similar impact on its industry to

0:29:36.160 --> 0:29:39.680
<v Speaker 2>how Jurassic Park influenced paleontology by like bringing a shitload

0:29:39.680 --> 0:29:40.120
<v Speaker 2>of people in.

0:29:40.240 --> 0:29:43.680
<v Speaker 3>Wow, that's really interesting to me because I like, I

0:29:43.720 --> 0:29:47.320
<v Speaker 3>don't know. I have not read Liar's Poker. To be honest,

0:29:47.440 --> 0:29:49.760
<v Speaker 3>I have not read any of his books. I have

0:29:49.800 --> 0:29:52.760
<v Speaker 3>seen some of the adaptations in movies of his books.

0:29:53.160 --> 0:29:56.520
<v Speaker 3>But but yeah, in terms of like, anytime someone writes

0:29:56.520 --> 0:29:58.280
<v Speaker 3>something about Wall Street, like you have to be so

0:29:58.480 --> 0:30:02.800
<v Speaker 3>fucking careful, and also even if you are extremely fucking careful,

0:30:03.000 --> 0:30:05.560
<v Speaker 3>it will still bring in the wrong people who refuse

0:30:05.600 --> 0:30:07.880
<v Speaker 3>to see the point, like they're like Wolf of Wall

0:30:07.920 --> 0:30:10.320
<v Speaker 3>Street is one of my favorite movies, hands down. At

0:30:10.600 --> 0:30:13.640
<v Speaker 3>it's great and it is exact time. Yeah, but it's

0:30:13.680 --> 0:30:17.360
<v Speaker 3>still like brought people in on the wrong ye, Like

0:30:18.080 --> 0:30:20.560
<v Speaker 3>fuck it, because brain dead people are going to be

0:30:20.560 --> 0:30:21.400
<v Speaker 3>brain dead people.

0:30:21.760 --> 0:30:24.080
<v Speaker 2>This is we're going in a more serious direction. But

0:30:24.120 --> 0:30:26.320
<v Speaker 2>if you've read Slaughterhouse five, in the opening of it,

0:30:26.400 --> 0:30:28.560
<v Speaker 2>Vonnegut talks about how when he said I'm going to

0:30:28.560 --> 0:30:31.880
<v Speaker 2>write my my war book, his wife was like, don't

0:30:31.880 --> 0:30:33.960
<v Speaker 2>do it. There's no way to do it without making

0:30:34.000 --> 0:30:36.560
<v Speaker 2>it look cool, Like no one has ever managed to

0:30:36.600 --> 0:30:38.280
<v Speaker 2>not do it in a way that makes young men

0:30:38.320 --> 0:30:42.480
<v Speaker 2>think it's cool. And she was right, like, for the record, yeah,

0:30:42.880 --> 0:30:45.400
<v Speaker 2>I mean one of the problems with even anti war

0:30:45.480 --> 0:30:48.080
<v Speaker 2>war fiction is it always makes it look cool because

0:30:48.080 --> 0:30:52.440
<v Speaker 2>it's it's cool, right, That doesn't mean it's good. It's like,

0:30:52.560 --> 0:30:55.640
<v Speaker 2>Joe Cammel is cool, he still killed one hundred million people.

0:30:56.160 --> 0:30:59.479
<v Speaker 3>Joe Cammell gave my father lung cancer, and I stand

0:30:59.520 --> 0:31:04.600
<v Speaker 3>by that. And to conjure a similar image Joe Cammell,

0:31:04.640 --> 0:31:06.400
<v Speaker 3>there's an image that I saw when I worked in

0:31:06.440 --> 0:31:10.800
<v Speaker 3>the Playboy archives of Joe Cammel and illustrated gorgeous like

0:31:11.200 --> 0:31:16.880
<v Speaker 3>painting essentially of Joe Camil in convertible with smoking hot

0:31:16.960 --> 0:31:20.440
<v Speaker 3>human women. Hell yeah, yeah, big old titties, And you're like, no,

0:31:20.520 --> 0:31:25.360
<v Speaker 3>wonder this advertisement killed people. This advertisement kill people being

0:31:25.440 --> 0:31:28.680
<v Speaker 3>like this, you could be this ugly ass camel with

0:31:29.520 --> 0:31:32.960
<v Speaker 3>women with huge naturals, like just like.

0:31:33.080 --> 0:31:35.360
<v Speaker 2>You can add up all the German generals on the

0:31:35.360 --> 0:31:37.840
<v Speaker 2>Eastern Front and they didn't kill as many people as

0:31:37.840 --> 0:31:38.480
<v Speaker 2>that act.

0:31:40.160 --> 0:31:43.200
<v Speaker 3>Truly like, and it's a beautiful piece of artwork, but like,

0:31:43.360 --> 0:31:44.920
<v Speaker 3>let's be fucking honest.

0:31:45.160 --> 0:31:50.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so today Lewis merely acknowledges that the psychos he

0:31:50.600 --> 0:31:53.160
<v Speaker 2>wrote about in Liar's Poker were more fun on the

0:31:53.240 --> 0:31:57.080
<v Speaker 2>page than they were in person. This can be if

0:31:57.080 --> 0:31:58.760
<v Speaker 2>this is your first book and you write it in

0:31:58.800 --> 0:32:01.040
<v Speaker 2>nineteen eighty two and you really later, oh, this actually

0:32:01.080 --> 0:32:03.680
<v Speaker 2>might have made the problem worse. That's not a thing

0:32:03.720 --> 0:32:07.640
<v Speaker 2>you have any moral culpability for. That's just like writing

0:32:07.680 --> 0:32:10.440
<v Speaker 2>a thing with good intentions and it turns out badly.

0:32:11.720 --> 0:32:14.720
<v Speaker 2>But this does become a problem, and one that we

0:32:14.760 --> 0:32:17.960
<v Speaker 2>can critique is partly a moral problem when it becomes

0:32:17.960 --> 0:32:20.440
<v Speaker 2>part of a pattern, and it is a pattern with

0:32:20.520 --> 0:32:23.480
<v Speaker 2>Michael Lewis. The Big Short is obviously not a Wall

0:32:23.520 --> 0:32:25.880
<v Speaker 2>Street puff piece, but it became beloved by exactly the

0:32:25.960 --> 0:32:29.560
<v Speaker 2>same people you might assume it was trying to criticize.

0:32:29.720 --> 0:32:32.280
<v Speaker 2>And that Guardian article I've quoted from, there's a story

0:32:32.320 --> 0:32:35.200
<v Speaker 2>about Michael Lewis attends this big New York party and

0:32:35.240 --> 0:32:36.800
<v Speaker 2>he's like warned ahead of time that it's going to

0:32:36.800 --> 0:32:39.719
<v Speaker 2>be full of bankers and other finance guys, and he's like, oh,

0:32:39.760 --> 0:32:41.400
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if they're going to like me, because

0:32:41.440 --> 0:32:43.040
<v Speaker 2>he had just not only was The Big Short out,

0:32:43.040 --> 0:32:46.600
<v Speaker 2>but he just published an article at a major publication

0:32:46.920 --> 0:32:49.840
<v Speaker 2>attacking Wall Street big wigs as being greedy idiots, like

0:32:49.880 --> 0:32:52.640
<v Speaker 2>saying it in very unsparing terms. And one of Lewis's

0:32:52.640 --> 0:32:55.040
<v Speaker 2>friends later said, quote, but all these former heads of

0:32:55.040 --> 0:32:57.840
<v Speaker 2>investment banks, all these current bankers, they ran not walked

0:32:57.880 --> 0:33:00.240
<v Speaker 2>to the office just to meet him. One hedge fun

0:33:00.240 --> 0:33:03.520
<v Speaker 2>manager walked in with fifteen copies of Lewis's books, Michael

0:33:03.560 --> 0:33:07.160
<v Speaker 2>signed them all. And again, if you are a journalist,

0:33:07.320 --> 0:33:09.520
<v Speaker 2>that's a bad side, Like.

0:33:10.960 --> 0:33:13.680
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, what is your take on that? I mean, like,

0:33:14.000 --> 0:33:17.200
<v Speaker 3>what is the game of chess that I'm not seeing here?

0:33:17.720 --> 0:33:20.080
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I think it's just that he makes he

0:33:20.200 --> 0:33:23.440
<v Speaker 2>makes this look sexy, and it's if he writes about you.

0:33:23.600 --> 0:33:25.760
<v Speaker 2>Part of a big part of this is that while

0:33:25.800 --> 0:33:29.320
<v Speaker 2>he's maybe negative about greed within the overall finance industry,

0:33:29.680 --> 0:33:33.800
<v Speaker 2>he cannot write about a person without making them look

0:33:33.960 --> 0:33:37.200
<v Speaker 2>cool because he has to like them to write about them. Right,

0:33:37.400 --> 0:33:39.200
<v Speaker 2>All these guys in the big short you could say,

0:33:39.520 --> 0:33:41.520
<v Speaker 2>profited off of a lot of misery. Now they didn't

0:33:41.560 --> 0:33:44.600
<v Speaker 2>cause it. He didn't start this subprime loan thing. But

0:33:44.680 --> 0:33:46.680
<v Speaker 2>they profited off of a lot of misery. And that's

0:33:46.720 --> 0:33:50.240
<v Speaker 2>at least kind of grimy. But Lewis likes these guys

0:33:50.360 --> 0:33:53.240
<v Speaker 2>and he turns them into celebrities because of how good

0:33:53.280 --> 0:33:55.960
<v Speaker 2>he is at writing about them and making you see

0:33:56.000 --> 0:33:59.800
<v Speaker 2>what's likable in them. Right. And so at this point

0:33:59.880 --> 0:34:02.880
<v Speaker 2>he because of how often this has happened, is he

0:34:02.960 --> 0:34:05.600
<v Speaker 2>is aware that his books are pr for their subjects.

0:34:05.720 --> 0:34:08.200
<v Speaker 2>He has a habit now of connecting people he writes

0:34:08.239 --> 0:34:11.080
<v Speaker 2>about in his books to his PR manager so that

0:34:11.120 --> 0:34:13.680
<v Speaker 2>they can set up speaking tours for them, right, Because

0:34:13.680 --> 0:34:16.320
<v Speaker 2>he knows if I put you in a book, that's

0:34:16.360 --> 0:34:18.479
<v Speaker 2>going to be a big business for you, you're going

0:34:18.560 --> 0:34:21.680
<v Speaker 2>to be in demand. Yeah, And this is part as

0:34:21.680 --> 0:34:23.920
<v Speaker 2>a result of him he doesn't he can't really be

0:34:24.000 --> 0:34:27.680
<v Speaker 2>critical about the individuals, right, And this is this is

0:34:27.719 --> 0:34:31.360
<v Speaker 2>another quote from that Guardian article. The obverse of Lewis's

0:34:31.400 --> 0:34:33.960
<v Speaker 2>approach is that he doesn't write about people he can't befriend,

0:34:34.160 --> 0:34:37.239
<v Speaker 2>or about stories that might cost him relationships. Among the

0:34:37.239 --> 0:34:40.560
<v Speaker 2>few projects he has abandoned is a biography of George Soros,

0:34:40.600 --> 0:34:42.799
<v Speaker 2>who was so unhappy with Lewis's portrayal of him as

0:34:42.800 --> 0:34:45.920
<v Speaker 2>a financier rather than an intellectual in a magazine profile

0:34:46.120 --> 0:34:48.600
<v Speaker 2>that he refused to cooperate. Another is a book about

0:34:48.600 --> 0:34:50.960
<v Speaker 2>New Orleans, which would have demanded a level of honesty

0:34:51.000 --> 0:34:53.640
<v Speaker 2>about the city's society and about his family's place in

0:34:53.680 --> 0:34:55.920
<v Speaker 2>it that might have hurt his parents. He said, I

0:34:56.000 --> 0:34:58.760
<v Speaker 2>adore my parents. I couldn't write that part while they're alive.

0:34:59.760 --> 0:35:02.520
<v Speaker 2>And and you know, again, none of this is like unforgivable.

0:35:03.000 --> 0:35:05.560
<v Speaker 2>But if you're admitting that as a journalist, what aren't

0:35:05.600 --> 0:35:07.480
<v Speaker 2>you able to admit? And I think in this case,

0:35:07.520 --> 0:35:09.919
<v Speaker 2>it's that he is not able to look at Sam

0:35:09.960 --> 0:35:14.160
<v Speaker 2>Bankman freed honestly because he found himself taken in by

0:35:14.200 --> 0:35:14.920
<v Speaker 2>the kid stick.

0:35:15.760 --> 0:35:17.759
<v Speaker 3>Well, that's what I feel like is one of the

0:35:17.760 --> 0:35:22.160
<v Speaker 3>complicating factors of And I don't say this in a

0:35:22.200 --> 0:35:25.719
<v Speaker 3>way to seem like it's like an unsolvable puzzle, but it's,

0:35:25.760 --> 0:35:31.520
<v Speaker 3>like Michael Lewis writes, it seems like, you know, largely accurate,

0:35:32.160 --> 0:35:36.919
<v Speaker 3>you know, pieces of journalism. We'll talk about that, well, okay, yeah,

0:35:36.960 --> 0:35:39.480
<v Speaker 3>so far right as someone who's never read his work.

0:35:39.840 --> 0:35:43.879
<v Speaker 3>But they're also inherently commercial, because I feel like there's

0:35:43.920 --> 0:35:47.440
<v Speaker 3>a journalistic value to explaining why someone is appealing, but

0:35:47.480 --> 0:35:50.439
<v Speaker 3>there's also an even more commercial value to explaining why

0:35:50.480 --> 0:35:53.200
<v Speaker 3>someone is appealing because that makes it, you know, that

0:35:53.440 --> 0:35:56.399
<v Speaker 3>sells books, that sells movie tales, that sells all this shit.

0:35:57.320 --> 0:36:00.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, And I think it's also part of why

0:36:00.400 --> 0:36:03.319
<v Speaker 2>his stuff is successful in a commercial sense. Is that

0:36:04.440 --> 0:36:07.840
<v Speaker 2>is this other fact that like it's always kind of uplifting.

0:36:07.960 --> 0:36:11.160
<v Speaker 2>Right again, the big short the whole collapse of the

0:36:11.160 --> 0:36:13.920
<v Speaker 2>financial industry is dark, but stuff goes well for these

0:36:14.000 --> 0:36:16.920
<v Speaker 2>characters that you've come to light, right. And Lewis himself

0:36:16.960 --> 0:36:20.440
<v Speaker 2>is kind of admitted he can't really end on a

0:36:20.480 --> 0:36:22.759
<v Speaker 2>not upbeat note. He has a lot of trouble with it.

0:36:23.400 --> 0:36:26.120
<v Speaker 2>He said, quote, once you identify yourself as happy, you're

0:36:26.160 --> 0:36:28.480
<v Speaker 2>always looking for happiness, and when things come along to

0:36:28.520 --> 0:36:30.759
<v Speaker 2>great on that happiness, you find ways to deflect them.

0:36:31.080 --> 0:36:33.319
<v Speaker 2>You can force the narrative. And I think what he

0:36:33.360 --> 0:36:35.960
<v Speaker 2>doesn't say there, but what is explains his Sam Bankman

0:36:36.000 --> 0:36:38.440
<v Speaker 2>Freed book, is that once you get in the habit

0:36:38.520 --> 0:36:41.279
<v Speaker 2>of writing about like these geniuses who are hidden in

0:36:41.320 --> 0:36:44.359
<v Speaker 2>the middle of systems, right and see more than everybody else.

0:36:44.680 --> 0:36:47.919
<v Speaker 2>Once you start doing that, you see anybody you start

0:36:48.000 --> 0:36:50.960
<v Speaker 2>focusing on as that kind of genius, even when they're not.

0:36:51.480 --> 0:36:53.319
<v Speaker 2>And that's what's happened with Michael here?

0:36:53.800 --> 0:36:58.360
<v Speaker 3>So yeah, mess, mess, And it's like, you know, ultimately,

0:36:58.640 --> 0:37:01.480
<v Speaker 3>nine times out of ten the person wearing like fucking

0:37:01.760 --> 0:37:04.520
<v Speaker 3>X ray glasses is wearing a pair of fucking Imax

0:37:04.560 --> 0:37:06.120
<v Speaker 3>glasses to go see Oppenheimer.

0:37:06.280 --> 0:37:10.560
<v Speaker 2>Like, it's just embarrassing, exactly, It's just embarrassing. And yeah, yeah,

0:37:10.640 --> 0:37:13.360
<v Speaker 2>So I think the best example of this before we

0:37:13.440 --> 0:37:17.480
<v Speaker 2>get into Sam Bankman freed prior in Lewis's history, is

0:37:17.480 --> 0:37:19.719
<v Speaker 2>a book called The blind Side, which was published in

0:37:19.760 --> 0:37:22.040
<v Speaker 2>two thousand and six. Now, The blind Side, like a

0:37:22.040 --> 0:37:25.200
<v Speaker 2>lot of Swiss stories, there's a macro in a micro narrative.

0:37:25.200 --> 0:37:27.400
<v Speaker 2>The macro narrative is he's talking about the grow, the

0:37:27.440 --> 0:37:30.759
<v Speaker 2>explosive growth in the importance of the left tackle in football.

0:37:30.960 --> 0:37:33.040
<v Speaker 2>This is an offensive lineman whose job is basically to

0:37:33.040 --> 0:37:36.280
<v Speaker 2>make sure the quarterback doesn't get a maimed. The micro story,

0:37:36.320 --> 0:37:39.320
<v Speaker 2>which contains the emotional heart of the book and is

0:37:39.360 --> 0:37:41.320
<v Speaker 2>the core of the narrative, is the tale of a

0:37:41.320 --> 0:37:43.920
<v Speaker 2>guy named Michael Oher who was He was placed in

0:37:44.000 --> 0:37:48.200
<v Speaker 2>foster care at age seven because his mother suffered from addiction.

0:37:48.320 --> 0:37:50.759
<v Speaker 2>His dad was generally in prison. His dad dies while

0:37:50.760 --> 0:37:53.560
<v Speaker 2>he's I think in high school or was dealt a

0:37:53.560 --> 0:37:56.279
<v Speaker 2>pretty tough hand in life. But he's also six foot

0:37:56.320 --> 0:37:59.719
<v Speaker 2>six and very fast, right, so he is someone who

0:37:59.719 --> 0:38:03.160
<v Speaker 2>will like shows an aptitude for football. As a result

0:38:03.200 --> 0:38:06.719
<v Speaker 2>of this, he's kind of coaxed through getting into a

0:38:06.760 --> 0:38:09.399
<v Speaker 2>private school and he gets he gets literally adopted by

0:38:09.440 --> 0:38:12.760
<v Speaker 2>this rich white family, oh as a black man, black

0:38:12.920 --> 0:38:15.719
<v Speaker 2>child at this time, and they make it their business

0:38:16.000 --> 0:38:18.480
<v Speaker 2>to coach him and coax him in through getting through

0:38:18.480 --> 0:38:21.040
<v Speaker 2>the academics so that he can be in the NCAA

0:38:21.239 --> 0:38:23.880
<v Speaker 2>and college so that he can get an NFL contract.

0:38:23.920 --> 0:38:28.960
<v Speaker 3>Right, So I'll be perfectly honest. I before we started,

0:38:29.160 --> 0:38:31.400
<v Speaker 3>before you told me that Michael Lewis was a main character,

0:38:31.800 --> 0:38:34.760
<v Speaker 3>I did not know that he wrote The blind Side.

0:38:34.800 --> 0:38:37.120
<v Speaker 2>Oh yes he did, because this comes becomes a movie

0:38:37.120 --> 0:38:39.200
<v Speaker 2>that's huge, right also, and.

0:38:39.120 --> 0:38:44.360
<v Speaker 3>I am very well acquainted with the the ensuing nasty,

0:38:44.480 --> 0:38:47.080
<v Speaker 3>fucking cultural narrative associated with the movie. But I didn't

0:38:47.120 --> 0:38:49.760
<v Speaker 3>realize that it was a book. I knew Liar's poker

0:38:49.800 --> 0:38:51.000
<v Speaker 3>moneyball in the Big Short.

0:38:51.040 --> 0:38:54.359
<v Speaker 1>Holy Robert, Robert, I just want a fact teck real quick.

0:38:54.719 --> 0:38:56.440
<v Speaker 1>He wasn't adopted by them.

0:38:56.719 --> 0:38:59.200
<v Speaker 2>Not We're getting to that Okay, that was the narrow,

0:38:59.239 --> 0:39:02.200
<v Speaker 2>that was the nar in the blind Side, right right,

0:39:02.440 --> 0:39:05.720
<v Speaker 2>that they have basically adopted this guy. Yes, you are correct, Sophie,

0:39:05.760 --> 0:39:07.120
<v Speaker 2>but I'm building to that. Okay.

0:39:07.160 --> 0:39:11.839
<v Speaker 3>So okayah, okay, that's just like I don't I don't

0:39:11.840 --> 0:39:14.280
<v Speaker 3>know why I didn't know that, and also like who

0:39:14.280 --> 0:39:16.840
<v Speaker 3>didn't want me to know that? Michael Lewis Yeah, I

0:39:16.840 --> 0:39:21.160
<v Speaker 3>mean Blindside a book that is famously bullsh Yeah.

0:39:21.200 --> 0:39:25.640
<v Speaker 2>So this family adopts or and they effectively adopt him,

0:39:25.680 --> 0:39:27.400
<v Speaker 2>is I think generally how it's framed. And they help

0:39:27.520 --> 0:39:29.839
<v Speaker 2>him get through high school, get into a college, and

0:39:29.960 --> 0:39:32.879
<v Speaker 2>kind of like help usher him into this NFL career

0:39:32.880 --> 0:39:35.360
<v Speaker 2>where he makes a significant amount of money obviously, And

0:39:35.400 --> 0:39:38.839
<v Speaker 2>I'm a quote from the La Times here. The administration

0:39:38.920 --> 0:39:41.600
<v Speaker 2>at his high school accepts him although he can barely read.

0:39:41.880 --> 0:39:44.399
<v Speaker 2>He secures a full time tutor. When his grade point

0:39:44.400 --> 0:39:47.440
<v Speaker 2>average still proves too low for the NCAA. His adoptive father,

0:39:47.880 --> 0:39:51.960
<v Speaker 2>a canny former college basketball standout named Sean Touhey, manages

0:39:52.000 --> 0:39:54.480
<v Speaker 2>to find a crucial loophole he has over tested to

0:39:54.520 --> 0:39:57.200
<v Speaker 2>prove that he's learning disabled, then has him take numerous

0:39:57.239 --> 0:40:00.759
<v Speaker 2>easy online courses Lewis treats these measures genius. We are

0:40:00.800 --> 0:40:02.719
<v Speaker 2>meant to cheer the fact that Ore has gained the

0:40:02.840 --> 0:40:05.799
<v Speaker 2>educational process. And this is a tech. This is from

0:40:05.800 --> 0:40:09.359
<v Speaker 2>the book. Leanne, who's the wife of Sean, was now

0:40:09.360 --> 0:40:11.840
<v Speaker 2>making it her personal responsibility to introduce him to the

0:40:11.920 --> 0:40:13.960
<v Speaker 2>most basic facts of life, the sort of thing any

0:40:14.000 --> 0:40:17.040
<v Speaker 2>normal person would have learned by osmosis. Every day, I

0:40:17.080 --> 0:40:19.160
<v Speaker 2>try to make sure he knows something he doesn't know,

0:40:19.320 --> 0:40:21.760
<v Speaker 2>she said. If you ask him, where should I shop

0:40:21.800 --> 0:40:24.400
<v Speaker 2>for a girl to a pressure, He'll tell you Tiffany's

0:40:24.600 --> 0:40:26.520
<v Speaker 2>if I go, I'll go through the whole golf game.

0:40:26.560 --> 0:40:28.719
<v Speaker 2>He can tell you what six under is, and what's

0:40:28.719 --> 0:40:30.960
<v Speaker 2>a birding and what's par I love that those are

0:40:30.960 --> 0:40:32.760
<v Speaker 2>her two examples of basic knowledge.

0:40:32.840 --> 0:40:36.880
<v Speaker 3>This is Sandra Bullocks Oscar talking. Yes, is Sandra Bullocks

0:40:36.920 --> 0:40:38.759
<v Speaker 3>Oscar flat? This nasty little mound.

0:40:39.120 --> 0:40:41.560
<v Speaker 2>Two things every boy needs to know? Where to buy

0:40:41.640 --> 0:40:46.600
<v Speaker 2>jewelry and how to golf works. Really says a lot

0:40:46.680 --> 0:40:50.600
<v Speaker 2>about her socioeconomic status, right, not like here's how you

0:40:50.600 --> 0:40:54.720
<v Speaker 2>pay your taxes, not like you know literally anything else,

0:40:54.840 --> 0:40:59.200
<v Speaker 2>like here's how you cook eggs, But no fucking fucking

0:40:59.360 --> 0:41:01.279
<v Speaker 2>golf and Tiffany's well yeah, and.

0:41:01.239 --> 0:41:04.320
<v Speaker 3>Also, like I mean to state the obvious, like conflating

0:41:04.360 --> 0:41:07.000
<v Speaker 3>that with like this is what normal people, This is

0:41:07.080 --> 0:41:10.359
<v Speaker 3>normal the doctoral thesis in the ways that that is.

0:41:10.280 --> 0:41:14.080
<v Speaker 2>Okay, great shit. Yeah, So we can all see the

0:41:14.120 --> 0:41:17.440
<v Speaker 2>potential abusive issue with a wealthy white family adopting a

0:41:17.520 --> 0:41:20.080
<v Speaker 2>teenaged black boy to coach him into launching a pro

0:41:20.120 --> 0:41:22.480
<v Speaker 2>football career. Right, just if you think about all of

0:41:22.480 --> 0:41:24.520
<v Speaker 2>the head injuries and shit involved, there's a lot this

0:41:24.640 --> 0:41:28.520
<v Speaker 2>problematic here. Lewis does quote Lane at one point as saying,

0:41:28.680 --> 0:41:30.600
<v Speaker 2>with me and Sean, I can see him thinking if

0:41:30.600 --> 0:41:32.279
<v Speaker 2>they found me lying in a gutter and I was

0:41:32.600 --> 0:41:35.080
<v Speaker 2>going to be flipping burgers at McDonald's, would they really

0:41:35.080 --> 0:41:37.040
<v Speaker 2>have had an interest at me? But the book is

0:41:37.120 --> 0:41:40.640
<v Speaker 2>ultimately positive and uplifting. We're left thinking how nice it

0:41:40.719 --> 0:41:43.160
<v Speaker 2>is that these people help this kid out. The la

0:41:43.280 --> 0:41:46.960
<v Speaker 2>Times note that Lewis seems to be like amused at

0:41:46.960 --> 0:41:49.319
<v Speaker 2>these rich people cheating the system to usher this kid

0:41:49.320 --> 0:41:52.800
<v Speaker 2>into a dangerous job without like educating him. So the

0:41:52.920 --> 0:41:55.279
<v Speaker 2>nice parts of the story ended earlier this year when

0:41:55.280 --> 0:41:58.160
<v Speaker 2>a now retired or filed a lawsuit in a Tennessee

0:41:58.160 --> 0:42:01.120
<v Speaker 2>court alleging that the two He's never adopted him and

0:42:01.160 --> 0:42:05.440
<v Speaker 2>instead created a conservaship two He's, I don't care, fuck him,

0:42:05.760 --> 0:42:08.759
<v Speaker 2>and instead created a conservatorship and used it to take

0:42:08.800 --> 0:42:11.960
<v Speaker 2>his money. Right, the Twohees or whatever the fuck deny

0:42:12.080 --> 0:42:12.440
<v Speaker 2>doing this.

0:42:12.560 --> 0:42:17.120
<v Speaker 3>They again, Yeah, I think it's it's actually for the pepes,

0:42:18.080 --> 0:42:18.719
<v Speaker 3>I don't care.

0:42:20.400 --> 0:42:23.680
<v Speaker 2>Dick bags deny this, And again I'm not being a

0:42:23.719 --> 0:42:25.160
<v Speaker 2>non biased journalist here, but.

0:42:25.200 --> 0:42:29.160
<v Speaker 3>Fuck you know, referend it's actually dickman's, dick Mans.

0:42:28.800 --> 0:42:32.720
<v Speaker 2>The Dickmans. They call his claims hateful and absurd. Michael

0:42:32.800 --> 0:42:36.040
<v Speaker 2>Lewis has defended the Twohees by saying that they only

0:42:36.120 --> 0:42:39.160
<v Speaker 2>earned a few hundred thousand dollars off of The blind Side,

0:42:39.239 --> 0:42:40.960
<v Speaker 2>the book and the movie that was made off of it.

0:42:41.120 --> 0:42:43.360
<v Speaker 2>He's like, they didn't make millions, then they made a

0:42:43.360 --> 0:42:47.160
<v Speaker 2>few hundred grand. Now Lewis also does and I'll give

0:42:47.200 --> 0:42:49.960
<v Speaker 2>him this. He also admits, right after saying that that

0:42:50.080 --> 0:42:53.040
<v Speaker 2>the two hees biological daughter is married to the son

0:42:53.080 --> 0:42:56.040
<v Speaker 2>of the main investor in the film, which might suggest

0:42:56.080 --> 0:42:58.920
<v Speaker 2>that the family made a lot more money off of it. Right, Oh,

0:42:59.360 --> 0:43:04.360
<v Speaker 2>that might because The Blindside makes half a billion dollars

0:43:04.400 --> 0:43:06.120
<v Speaker 2>and a thirty five million dollar budget.

0:43:07.200 --> 0:43:09.760
<v Speaker 3>In his own way, Michael Lewis in this.

0:43:09.800 --> 0:43:13.640
<v Speaker 2>Kind of Michael Lewis is super rich and always really

0:43:14.800 --> 0:43:16.200
<v Speaker 2>there's been buried.

0:43:16.440 --> 0:43:19.600
<v Speaker 1>There's there's so many articles about like it is the

0:43:20.239 --> 0:43:20.959
<v Speaker 1>Shady Ship.

0:43:21.160 --> 0:43:23.920
<v Speaker 3>That's the first time I'm hearing about the daughter marriage

0:43:23.920 --> 0:43:25.839
<v Speaker 3>because I read a fair amount.

0:43:25.560 --> 0:43:30.879
<v Speaker 2>About that fun stuff. So in his own twenty eleven book,

0:43:30.960 --> 0:43:34.160
<v Speaker 2>oh Like expresses issues with the movie based off of

0:43:34.239 --> 0:43:37.320
<v Speaker 2>Lewis's book. Primarily, there's this part where like the twees

0:43:37.400 --> 0:43:39.279
<v Speaker 2>are teaching him how to play football and he's like,

0:43:39.280 --> 0:43:42.040
<v Speaker 2>I knew football before I met them. I'm a teenager

0:43:42.040 --> 0:43:45.200
<v Speaker 2>in America, Like, like, what are you fucking talking about?

0:43:46.239 --> 0:43:49.520
<v Speaker 2>There are other problematic moments in the book, uh, and

0:43:49.560 --> 0:43:52.520
<v Speaker 2>this is from The Guardian Again. Lewis calls Oer big

0:43:52.560 --> 0:43:55.280
<v Speaker 2>mic throughout it, despite the fact that Oher is open

0:43:55.320 --> 0:43:58.200
<v Speaker 2>about hating that nickname. He also tells this guy's story

0:43:58.239 --> 0:44:01.239
<v Speaker 2>almost exclusively through the words of other people talking about him,

0:44:01.520 --> 0:44:04.600
<v Speaker 2>even though he had access to Oor. Lewis justifies this

0:44:04.680 --> 0:44:06.960
<v Speaker 2>by saying that or was not a strong voice on

0:44:07.040 --> 0:44:10.800
<v Speaker 2>his life. Yeah, this guy's not good at talking about himself.

0:44:10.920 --> 0:44:15.680
<v Speaker 2>I'm just gonna listen to everyone else about him. I'm out.

0:44:16.239 --> 0:44:19.080
<v Speaker 2>I think what's really going on here is that poor

0:44:19.239 --> 0:44:22.960
<v Speaker 2>is a black kid from a desperate poverty background, right,

0:44:23.320 --> 0:44:26.520
<v Speaker 2>and Lewis cannot identify or get inside of his head

0:44:26.560 --> 0:44:29.880
<v Speaker 2>because that is nothing even that even resembles the Michael

0:44:29.920 --> 0:44:30.600
<v Speaker 2>Lewis story.

0:44:30.840 --> 0:44:35.960
<v Speaker 3>It feels like a very privileged dark take. Yes, Like, well,

0:44:36.000 --> 0:44:38.399
<v Speaker 3>who do I consider to be a credible voice? Can

0:44:38.440 --> 0:44:42.000
<v Speaker 3>I get twenty white people who barely know this guy.

0:44:42.040 --> 0:44:44.640
<v Speaker 2>Who just met this kid to profit off him.

0:44:44.520 --> 0:44:46.600
<v Speaker 3>To speak to him better than he can speak to

0:44:46.640 --> 0:44:50.120
<v Speaker 3>his own life, Because that's who I trust is white people.

0:44:50.360 --> 0:44:52.600
<v Speaker 3>That yeah, Oh, that's so fucking gross.

0:44:52.640 --> 0:44:54.960
<v Speaker 2>He doesn't try to get inside o'er his head, and

0:44:54.960 --> 0:44:57.240
<v Speaker 2>he just focuses most of the narrative on the twoees,

0:44:57.480 --> 0:45:00.480
<v Speaker 2>who who Lewis understands this is the final shoe. He

0:45:00.560 --> 0:45:03.080
<v Speaker 2>understands them for a very good reason. And I'm going

0:45:03.120 --> 0:45:05.560
<v Speaker 2>to quote from the La Times here. As I tore

0:45:05.640 --> 0:45:07.640
<v Speaker 2>through the book, I kept wondering how Lewis got such

0:45:07.680 --> 0:45:10.839
<v Speaker 2>remarkable access to the ties, and I also wondered why

0:45:10.840 --> 0:45:13.359
<v Speaker 2>does he take such an uncritical view of their role.

0:45:13.680 --> 0:45:16.279
<v Speaker 2>The author's note at the end provides the obvious explanation,

0:45:16.520 --> 0:45:18.600
<v Speaker 2>stating that Lewis is a friend of Sean Tooey's and

0:45:18.640 --> 0:45:21.319
<v Speaker 2>that they had been longtime classmates at the same New

0:45:21.400 --> 0:45:22.200
<v Speaker 2>Orleans school.

0:45:22.880 --> 0:45:27.880
<v Speaker 3>No, how is it even ethical to take this fucking

0:45:28.120 --> 0:45:30.240
<v Speaker 3>story on if you have.

0:45:31.239 --> 0:45:33.640
<v Speaker 2>There's only one kind of ethics that I care about, Jamie,

0:45:33.680 --> 0:45:35.880
<v Speaker 2>and it's dolla dolla fucking bills.

0:45:35.920 --> 0:45:39.560
<v Speaker 1>Well, well, Jamie, as you know, things could be unethical

0:45:39.600 --> 0:45:41.320
<v Speaker 1>but still be legal legal.

0:45:41.480 --> 0:45:42.280
<v Speaker 2>That's how.

0:45:45.920 --> 0:45:49.719
<v Speaker 3>I mean, truly, what a gift that we have as that,

0:45:50.040 --> 0:45:54.600
<v Speaker 3>Like I am he a force of evil in the world, certainly,

0:45:55.120 --> 0:45:57.359
<v Speaker 3>but I am grateful that he gave us that one thing,

0:45:57.640 --> 0:46:02.200
<v Speaker 3>just the way of uh describing juvenile lawless capitalists.

0:46:02.400 --> 0:46:03.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's so funny.

0:46:04.040 --> 0:46:04.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:46:05.280 --> 0:46:07.600
<v Speaker 2>One thing I have started to notice watching some of

0:46:07.640 --> 0:46:10.080
<v Speaker 2>the more recent and critical interviews with Lewis after the

0:46:10.160 --> 0:46:13.640
<v Speaker 2>SBF book is that, well, he's generally a pretty friendly

0:46:13.640 --> 0:46:16.960
<v Speaker 2>seeming guy. He starts to get really angry the instant

0:46:16.960 --> 0:46:19.520
<v Speaker 2>you question him on anything regarding one of his stories.

0:46:20.160 --> 0:46:22.720
<v Speaker 2>And you see this in this story in the Oer story,

0:46:22.719 --> 0:46:25.960
<v Speaker 2>because Ower's former coach comes out and like defends the

0:46:26.000 --> 0:46:28.719
<v Speaker 2>twohees or whatever. Once the lawsuit goes out, He's like,

0:46:29.080 --> 0:46:31.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, I don't think they took advantage of him, basically,

0:46:31.680 --> 0:46:33.120
<v Speaker 2>and Ower calls it brave.

0:46:32.960 --> 0:46:36.200
<v Speaker 3>And my professional, unbiased opinion, thank you.

0:46:36.560 --> 0:46:39.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Lewis calls the coach brave for doing this and

0:46:39.800 --> 0:46:42.840
<v Speaker 2>basically says he's taking a stand against cancel culture. And

0:46:42.880 --> 0:46:47.239
<v Speaker 2>then here's the Guardian again. Lewis recalled Oer as a

0:46:47.280 --> 0:46:49.319
<v Speaker 2>shy young boy and found it hard to square that

0:46:49.400 --> 0:46:52.040
<v Speaker 2>memory with the Oer behind the lawsuit. What we're watching

0:46:52.120 --> 0:46:54.120
<v Speaker 2>is a change of behavior. He told me. This is

0:46:54.160 --> 0:46:56.759
<v Speaker 2>what happens to football players who get hit in the head.

0:46:56.920 --> 0:47:00.000
<v Speaker 2>They run into problems with violence and aggression. It wouldn't

0:47:00.160 --> 0:47:02.640
<v Speaker 2>surprise him. Lewis said, if we were seeing some confluence

0:47:02.680 --> 0:47:05.319
<v Speaker 2>of Ora's history in football with other campaigns that stoke

0:47:05.360 --> 0:47:08.360
<v Speaker 2>claims in lawsuits like his, perhaps some lawyer of Ores

0:47:08.400 --> 0:47:11.279
<v Speaker 2>figured the time was ripe to sue the tweilies, Lewis speculated,

0:47:11.520 --> 0:47:14.080
<v Speaker 2>or perhaps Oer realized that people would get behind him

0:47:14.080 --> 0:47:17.040
<v Speaker 2>if he makes these accusations. He's just a poor head,

0:47:17.080 --> 0:47:18.040
<v Speaker 2>injured boy.

0:47:18.200 --> 0:47:22.160
<v Speaker 3>I They're like, no, the perceived exploitation and racism you

0:47:22.320 --> 0:47:26.600
<v Speaker 3>experienced was the result of CTE that's Oh my.

0:47:26.640 --> 0:47:30.759
<v Speaker 2>God, that's fucking wild. Right, that's gross as hell.

0:47:31.239 --> 0:47:35.399
<v Speaker 3>Oh, Jamie, Wow, I just thought he was the guy

0:47:35.440 --> 0:47:39.000
<v Speaker 3>who wrote Moneyball. I thought that that was the hard

0:47:39.200 --> 0:47:40.359
<v Speaker 3>I was thinking too.

0:47:40.680 --> 0:47:43.120
<v Speaker 2>Now. Yeah, so here, I want you to keep in

0:47:43.160 --> 0:47:47.040
<v Speaker 2>mind how he wrote about his former subject. Oor Now

0:47:47.080 --> 0:47:50.120
<v Speaker 2>hear his him talking in a sixty minutes interview about

0:47:50.239 --> 0:47:53.080
<v Speaker 2>Sam Bankman Free, the now convicted former billionaire, and I

0:47:53.120 --> 0:47:55.399
<v Speaker 2>just want to I really want to emphasize the contrast

0:47:55.480 --> 0:47:58.560
<v Speaker 2>between how he writes about these two different people who

0:47:58.560 --> 0:47:59.720
<v Speaker 2>are subjects of his books.

0:48:01.080 --> 0:48:04.160
<v Speaker 4>The story of Sam's life is people not understanding him,

0:48:04.480 --> 0:48:07.640
<v Speaker 4>misreading him. He's so different, he's so unusual. I mean,

0:48:07.680 --> 0:48:10.160
<v Speaker 4>I think in a funny way that the reason I

0:48:10.200 --> 0:48:13.680
<v Speaker 4>have such a compelling story is I have a character

0:48:13.840 --> 0:48:15.800
<v Speaker 4>that I do come to know, and then the reader

0:48:15.800 --> 0:48:18.400
<v Speaker 4>comes to know that the world still doesn't know.

0:48:19.080 --> 0:48:22.719
<v Speaker 2>Now, that is not the case. Sam Bakman Freed is

0:48:22.760 --> 0:48:25.560
<v Speaker 2>exactly the person he appears to be on the surface. Right,

0:48:25.880 --> 0:48:28.400
<v Speaker 2>He is a guy who committed a bunch of financial

0:48:28.440 --> 0:48:30.560
<v Speaker 2>crimes and didn't get away with it because he was

0:48:30.600 --> 0:48:33.719
<v Speaker 2>too lazy and undisciplined to do with the smart way, right,

0:48:33.800 --> 0:48:34.759
<v Speaker 2>and that's all that going.

0:48:34.880 --> 0:48:37.600
<v Speaker 3>I mean, this is like, oh, this is a bummer.

0:48:37.719 --> 0:48:40.839
<v Speaker 3>This is like a case study and a journalist biases

0:48:40.840 --> 0:48:41.799
<v Speaker 3>coming out on there.

0:48:42.000 --> 0:48:46.440
<v Speaker 2>Oh it's so it's so obvious. Yeah, No, story better

0:48:46.560 --> 0:48:50.440
<v Speaker 2>illustrates this part of the story than how Lewis wound

0:48:50.480 --> 0:48:53.800
<v Speaker 2>up writing Going Infinite in the first place. In twenty fourteen,

0:48:53.880 --> 0:48:56.359
<v Speaker 2>Lewis published a book called Flash Boys, which is a

0:48:56.440 --> 0:48:59.600
<v Speaker 2>book about Brad Katsuyama and a small group of rebel

0:48:59.640 --> 0:49:02.279
<v Speaker 2>Walst investors who form I ex which is like a

0:49:02.320 --> 0:49:05.040
<v Speaker 2>stock exchange that's supposed to. The idea is we want

0:49:05.040 --> 0:49:07.600
<v Speaker 2>to protect investors from the unfair advantages that these high

0:49:07.640 --> 0:49:11.600
<v Speaker 2>frequency trading firms have on traditional exchanges due to like

0:49:11.640 --> 0:49:14.279
<v Speaker 2>a whole bunch of shit, but largely access to a

0:49:14.280 --> 0:49:18.319
<v Speaker 2>special fiber optic cable. And with most Lewis books, there's

0:49:18.400 --> 0:49:20.560
<v Speaker 2>a lot of insiders that will criticize them foring some

0:49:20.640 --> 0:49:23.359
<v Speaker 2>details wrong here and glossing over some issues that don't

0:49:23.360 --> 0:49:26.399
<v Speaker 2>conform to his narrative. There's like a market crash that's

0:49:26.520 --> 0:49:30.239
<v Speaker 2>largely mitigated by some of these firms that he's criticizing.

0:49:30.239 --> 0:49:31.520
<v Speaker 2>But I don't know enough about that to want to

0:49:31.560 --> 0:49:34.239
<v Speaker 2>get into it. What's important is that Katsuyama and his

0:49:34.280 --> 0:49:37.200
<v Speaker 2>book of Rogue Traders are depicted semi heroically, is that

0:49:37.280 --> 0:49:40.560
<v Speaker 2>they're kind of fighting against this rigged financial system, which

0:49:40.600 --> 0:49:42.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, the financial systems rigged. I don't know about

0:49:42.920 --> 0:49:45.040
<v Speaker 2>his characteristication of them, but the book is a hit

0:49:45.120 --> 0:49:48.360
<v Speaker 2>and it makes Katsuyama and his crew celebrities within the

0:49:48.400 --> 0:49:52.080
<v Speaker 2>finance world. So Katsuyama reaches out to Lewis when he

0:49:52.200 --> 0:49:56.200
<v Speaker 2>is considering an institutional investment in FTX. He's like, we're

0:49:56.600 --> 0:49:59.480
<v Speaker 2>considering getting into crypto through these guys putting a lot

0:49:59.480 --> 0:50:01.920
<v Speaker 2>of money on there exchange. Would you look into this

0:50:01.960 --> 0:50:04.600
<v Speaker 2>guy for me? Right? And this is what Lewis says.

0:50:05.080 --> 0:50:08.160
<v Speaker 2>Lewis like basically goes in there and like talks to

0:50:08.200 --> 0:50:11.200
<v Speaker 2>Sam Bankman Freed, and he's he's so impressed that he

0:50:11.320 --> 0:50:14.520
<v Speaker 2>quotes himself as telling Katsuyama do whatever he wants to do.

0:50:14.600 --> 0:50:18.919
<v Speaker 2>What could possibly go wrong? Right? That's which bad bet

0:50:19.200 --> 0:50:21.479
<v Speaker 2>Uh does wind up putting money.

0:50:21.520 --> 0:50:24.680
<v Speaker 3>He is a worst person to ask what to go

0:50:24.800 --> 0:50:25.359
<v Speaker 3>wrong with?

0:50:25.560 --> 0:50:28.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, okay, yeah, And I'm going to continue from the

0:50:28.320 --> 0:50:31.719
<v Speaker 2>Guardian here. Okay, he did find himself intrigued in particular

0:50:31.719 --> 0:50:35.040
<v Speaker 2>by effective altruism, the movement to which Bankman Freed subscribed.

0:50:35.239 --> 0:50:37.600
<v Speaker 2>Effective altruists believe in giving away most of what they

0:50:37.600 --> 0:50:39.239
<v Speaker 2>make to do the most good in the world. Some

0:50:39.280 --> 0:50:41.120
<v Speaker 2>of them commit to earning as much as possible so

0:50:41.160 --> 0:50:44.319
<v Speaker 2>as to donate more to their chosen beneficiaries. Having spent

0:50:44.360 --> 0:50:46.479
<v Speaker 2>so long on Wall Street, Lewis wasn't used to meeting

0:50:46.480 --> 0:50:48.720
<v Speaker 2>a wealthy young man who claimed to have no interest

0:50:48.760 --> 0:50:52.040
<v Speaker 2>in wealth. Unusually for Lewis, he couldn't figure Bankman Freed out.

0:50:52.239 --> 0:50:54.560
<v Speaker 2>Michael just said, this kid is the richest and most

0:50:54.560 --> 0:50:58.920
<v Speaker 2>interesting young person I've ever met. Understand them all the

0:50:58.960 --> 0:51:01.440
<v Speaker 2>deep possesses of bank Reid's mind. But he knew it

0:51:01.440 --> 0:51:03.399
<v Speaker 2>was a great story. And this was before the shit

0:51:03.480 --> 0:51:06.600
<v Speaker 2>hit the fan. So this is real talking. Yeah.

0:51:07.239 --> 0:51:09.840
<v Speaker 3>And also it takes someone who grew up in that

0:51:10.000 --> 0:51:13.200
<v Speaker 3>environment to not have alarm bells going off in their

0:51:13.280 --> 0:51:16.480
<v Speaker 3>mind when they hear oh, I, as someone who has

0:51:16.520 --> 0:51:20.520
<v Speaker 3>never not had money, don't really care about money, You're like, well, yeah, no, shit,

0:51:20.680 --> 0:51:22.040
<v Speaker 3>you've never not had it.

0:51:22.120 --> 0:51:23.279
<v Speaker 2>You would really.

0:51:23.040 --> 0:51:25.319
<v Speaker 3>Care if you'd. That reminds me of this is like,

0:51:25.400 --> 0:51:27.840
<v Speaker 3>I think about this easily once a week. It happened

0:51:27.880 --> 0:51:30.840
<v Speaker 3>over ten years ago my freshman year of college. It

0:51:30.880 --> 0:51:33.400
<v Speaker 3>was my first time really encountering people who grew up

0:51:33.440 --> 0:51:37.120
<v Speaker 3>with like money, you know. And there was this guy

0:51:37.280 --> 0:51:40.440
<v Speaker 3>on my floor and one night everyone was hanging out

0:51:40.480 --> 0:51:43.239
<v Speaker 3>and he like, put a this is the era, this

0:51:43.280 --> 0:51:45.680
<v Speaker 3>is the early twenty tens. He put a skinny scarf

0:51:45.760 --> 0:51:49.520
<v Speaker 3>around my neck because it was cold, and he was like,

0:51:49.640 --> 0:51:51.560
<v Speaker 3>you can have that, and it smelled and I didn't

0:51:51.560 --> 0:51:54.120
<v Speaker 3>want it. But he's like, you could have that. And

0:51:54.160 --> 0:51:57.000
<v Speaker 3>I was like, oh, don't you like want it back

0:51:57.040 --> 0:52:02.200
<v Speaker 3>and he's like, no, I don't care about my material possessions.

0:52:01.800 --> 0:52:02.479
<v Speaker 2>And great.

0:52:02.600 --> 0:52:04.879
<v Speaker 3>I think about that all the time because he could

0:52:04.920 --> 0:52:08.600
<v Speaker 3>just get nine thousand scarves. You just get nine thousand scarves.

0:52:08.760 --> 0:52:10.440
<v Speaker 3>But that was like, but I feel like that is

0:52:10.480 --> 0:52:12.600
<v Speaker 3>so much of what effect of altruism is. It's just

0:52:12.640 --> 0:52:16.880
<v Speaker 3>a fundamental like, yeah, not understanding how the world works.

0:52:17.520 --> 0:52:20.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's it's a bunch of rich kids who are

0:52:20.120 --> 0:52:24.040
<v Speaker 2>talking through like fucking philosophy one oh one level shit

0:52:24.320 --> 0:52:27.840
<v Speaker 2>and think and so impressed by everyone else's answers to

0:52:28.000 --> 0:52:32.000
<v Speaker 2>like dumb logic puzzles because they've they've never studied enough

0:52:32.080 --> 0:52:34.359
<v Speaker 2>humanities to know that like no man, people have been

0:52:34.360 --> 0:52:36.640
<v Speaker 2>talking about this shit for thousands of years and all

0:52:36.680 --> 0:52:40.239
<v Speaker 2>of their takes are better than yours. Like anyway, we're

0:52:40.239 --> 0:52:42.600
<v Speaker 2>not getting into that as much right now. We are

0:52:42.640 --> 0:52:44.960
<v Speaker 2>about to get into the ads and if you really

0:52:45.000 --> 0:52:48.560
<v Speaker 2>want to do some effective altruism, purchase from the sponsors

0:52:48.560 --> 0:53:01.680
<v Speaker 2>of this podcast. Ah. So, we've been talking around the

0:53:01.680 --> 0:53:05.480
<v Speaker 2>book Going Infinite, which is Michael's terrible book on Sam,

0:53:05.600 --> 0:53:07.160
<v Speaker 2>so I think now is probably a good time to

0:53:07.200 --> 0:53:10.239
<v Speaker 2>dig into exactly how it fails. I wanted to start

0:53:10.239 --> 0:53:12.680
<v Speaker 2>by introducing that contrast between Lewis's treatment of o OR

0:53:12.760 --> 0:53:15.600
<v Speaker 2>and SBF first, because it puts things into perspective. Now,

0:53:15.640 --> 0:53:18.360
<v Speaker 2>I think a good anecdote to start on. Here is

0:53:18.400 --> 0:53:21.120
<v Speaker 2>one of the stories Lewis uses to introduce Sam to

0:53:21.200 --> 0:53:23.400
<v Speaker 2>the reader. This is right at the start of Going Infinite,

0:53:23.560 --> 0:53:26.239
<v Speaker 2>and it's about a phone call that Sam has during

0:53:26.280 --> 0:53:30.560
<v Speaker 2>his billionaire era with fashion industry icon Anna Wintour before

0:53:30.560 --> 0:53:35.880
<v Speaker 2>the Metgala. No oh yeah, oh yeah, Jamie. This this

0:53:36.080 --> 0:53:36.600
<v Speaker 2>is good.

0:53:37.200 --> 0:53:42.239
<v Speaker 3>So exhausted because Anna Wintour is Bill Nye, He's girlfriend

0:53:42.320 --> 0:53:44.279
<v Speaker 3>right now, and I don't want to think poorly of

0:53:44.320 --> 0:53:44.839
<v Speaker 3>Bill Nye.

0:53:44.840 --> 0:53:48.640
<v Speaker 2>He does no, No, it is tragic. My heart goes

0:53:48.640 --> 0:53:51.480
<v Speaker 2>out to Bill Nye, who I'm incapable of feeling badly about.

0:53:51.800 --> 0:53:54.160
<v Speaker 3>No, I'm here, I'm sitting my ass down and listening.

0:53:54.320 --> 0:53:57.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so Anna is who Meryl Streep's character in The

0:53:57.120 --> 0:53:59.800
<v Speaker 2>Devilwar's product is based on, right, Like, that's who this

0:54:00.040 --> 0:54:01.000
<v Speaker 2>person is. Oh.

0:54:01.200 --> 0:54:03.839
<v Speaker 3>I love when men try to explain what The Devil

0:54:03.880 --> 0:54:06.600
<v Speaker 3>Wears Prada is about. Yes, for all the men listening,

0:54:07.600 --> 0:54:10.920
<v Speaker 3>pause and go watch The Devil Wears Prada. It is

0:54:11.120 --> 0:54:14.640
<v Speaker 3>just like one of the greatest films of I think,

0:54:14.760 --> 0:54:18.560
<v Speaker 3>one of the greatest comedy films and books of Yeah,

0:54:18.960 --> 0:54:19.520
<v Speaker 3>very good.

0:54:19.520 --> 0:54:21.280
<v Speaker 2>Very good, happy essays.

0:54:21.960 --> 0:54:24.120
<v Speaker 1>Half the essays I wrote in college were based off

0:54:24.160 --> 0:54:24.840
<v Speaker 1>of said book.

0:54:25.719 --> 0:54:29.480
<v Speaker 2>Really, the met Gala is an annual event. I think

0:54:29.560 --> 0:54:32.800
<v Speaker 2>Vogue puts it on technically, but like it's where rich, famous,

0:54:32.840 --> 0:54:36.279
<v Speaker 2>and occasionally even beautiful people were insane outfits that cost

0:54:36.360 --> 0:54:38.120
<v Speaker 2>the GDP of a small island nation.

0:54:38.360 --> 0:54:41.040
<v Speaker 3>Right, yes, and then and then a bunch of YouTubers

0:54:41.080 --> 0:54:42.960
<v Speaker 3>I watch say that they looked ugly.

0:54:43.400 --> 0:54:46.600
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yes, it's a true. Yeah, it's it's great. It's great.

0:54:46.640 --> 0:54:49.520
<v Speaker 2>Everybody makes a feast off of it. But somebody has

0:54:49.560 --> 0:54:51.400
<v Speaker 2>to pay for the Son of a Bitch, right, and

0:54:51.520 --> 0:54:54.919
<v Speaker 2>that year went Tour wanted SBF to pay for the gala, right.

0:54:55.920 --> 0:54:59.239
<v Speaker 2>He was spending way more money on stupider shit than that,

0:54:59.480 --> 0:55:04.160
<v Speaker 2>so not unreasonable that he might actually agree to do this.

0:55:04.880 --> 0:55:07.239
<v Speaker 2>He had instructed at this point his publicity woman to

0:55:07.280 --> 0:55:10.200
<v Speaker 2>do whatever she could to increase ftx's reputation and keep

0:55:10.200 --> 0:55:12.120
<v Speaker 2>his name in the news. So not a bad way

0:55:12.160 --> 0:55:14.680
<v Speaker 2>to do that, right. The met gala often does make

0:55:14.719 --> 0:55:17.880
<v Speaker 2>the news, And when it came to his side of

0:55:17.920 --> 0:55:20.960
<v Speaker 2>the job, though, Sam was he put as much work

0:55:21.040 --> 0:55:24.000
<v Speaker 2>into like this call with Anna win Tour where tens

0:55:24.000 --> 0:55:26.080
<v Speaker 2>of millions of dollars are on the line, that he

0:55:26.080 --> 0:55:28.479
<v Speaker 2>did to like everything else that he had a meeting about,

0:55:28.480 --> 0:55:30.920
<v Speaker 2>which is no work at all. Right. Lewis goes into

0:55:31.000 --> 0:55:33.640
<v Speaker 2>detail about the fact that he's playing this dumb video game,

0:55:33.840 --> 0:55:36.160
<v Speaker 2>like while he's on a zoom call with her. It's

0:55:36.200 --> 0:55:38.880
<v Speaker 2>the same game he's always playing. It's this this video

0:55:38.880 --> 0:55:40.880
<v Speaker 2>game that he winds up buying because it's made by

0:55:40.880 --> 0:55:46.120
<v Speaker 2>a friend of his called Storybook Brawl, and it's it's

0:55:46.160 --> 0:55:49.640
<v Speaker 2>about like Fable characters fighting, right, Like it's it's that

0:55:49.800 --> 0:55:52.000
<v Speaker 2>it's a little strategy game. It's like an it's like

0:55:52.040 --> 0:55:54.720
<v Speaker 2>an app game. It's not a real game.

0:55:54.960 --> 0:55:57.400
<v Speaker 3>You know, you know how you watch those videos And

0:55:57.480 --> 0:56:02.200
<v Speaker 3>I say this with love and appreciation of like college

0:56:02.200 --> 0:56:09.440
<v Speaker 3>students now playing a video game while explaining like Marxism

0:56:09.520 --> 0:56:13.880
<v Speaker 3>to you and I want that. But Sam Bankmin Freed

0:56:13.960 --> 0:56:16.960
<v Speaker 3>playing that game. Well, well, Anna Wintour is like what

0:56:17.160 --> 0:56:17.920
<v Speaker 3>is he up to?

0:56:18.239 --> 0:56:19.960
<v Speaker 2>What is he up to?

0:56:19.520 --> 0:56:23.320
<v Speaker 1>The Jamie and I in Unison when you said playing

0:56:23.400 --> 0:56:27.879
<v Speaker 1>video game while talking to Anna Wintour, mouth wide open, like.

0:56:28.480 --> 0:56:30.439
<v Speaker 3>Well, it's like she could, I mean and and and

0:56:30.480 --> 0:56:33.319
<v Speaker 3>not even to like endorse her. I'm just like I

0:56:33.360 --> 0:56:35.840
<v Speaker 3>would be very afraid to do anything in front of

0:56:36.040 --> 0:56:38.720
<v Speaker 3>scary and she's famously scary.

0:56:38.880 --> 0:56:43.080
<v Speaker 2>She's famously scary. And he's talking about a lot of money, right,

0:56:43.200 --> 0:56:45.760
<v Speaker 2>Like it's it's not that he's blowing her off, because

0:56:45.760 --> 0:56:49.239
<v Speaker 2>like I don't feel precious about Anna Wintour's time, but

0:56:49.360 --> 0:56:52.279
<v Speaker 2>like it's that this is a big money deal and

0:56:52.320 --> 0:56:55.000
<v Speaker 2>he just he can't focus on it. And I would

0:56:55.040 --> 0:56:57.000
<v Speaker 2>take that. It's just like this is a this is

0:56:57.000 --> 0:56:59.799
<v Speaker 2>a dude too, smadhd right, Like that's what that is.

0:57:00.200 --> 0:57:02.440
<v Speaker 2>And this is a dude who has ADHD, who's part

0:57:02.480 --> 0:57:04.520
<v Speaker 2>of a generation that has ADHD.

0:57:05.040 --> 0:57:09.239
<v Speaker 3>Well, No, this is a very dumb observation. But it's

0:57:09.280 --> 0:57:12.960
<v Speaker 3>also clear to me that Sam bank Bankment Freed has

0:57:13.000 --> 0:57:15.239
<v Speaker 3>never seen the Devilwaar's product, which I've never been less

0:57:15.280 --> 0:57:17.400
<v Speaker 3>surprised at. But it's like, if you have no one

0:57:17.560 --> 0:57:21.680
<v Speaker 3>in your life who could tip you off you're talking

0:57:21.760 --> 0:57:26.120
<v Speaker 3>to me, protagonist of the Devilwaars product, then you lack

0:57:26.360 --> 0:57:30.000
<v Speaker 3>a support structure in a fundamental way. I think it's

0:57:30.280 --> 0:57:33.560
<v Speaker 3>it's okay, that's good to know that funny and I

0:57:33.600 --> 0:57:33.960
<v Speaker 3>are here.

0:57:34.560 --> 0:57:37.080
<v Speaker 2>What's funny about the way Lewis talks about this is

0:57:37.120 --> 0:57:39.680
<v Speaker 2>that he marvels at this right like it's the most

0:57:39.720 --> 0:57:42.920
<v Speaker 2>amazing thing, and it's evidence of how unique Sam is.

0:57:42.920 --> 0:57:46.080
<v Speaker 2>When you just noted one of the biggest pieces of

0:57:46.200 --> 0:57:50.480
<v Speaker 2>entertainment for millennials in gen z is people playing video

0:57:50.560 --> 0:57:54.160
<v Speaker 2>games and explaining politics. Right that is, it is not

0:57:54.400 --> 0:57:57.760
<v Speaker 2>at all unique that Sam Bankman Freed will not stop

0:57:57.840 --> 0:58:00.880
<v Speaker 2>gaming to have a business meeting. But Michael Lewis treats

0:58:00.880 --> 0:58:03.000
<v Speaker 2>it as like this is evidence that he is too

0:58:03.160 --> 0:58:06.320
<v Speaker 2>much of a genius he can't bear to pay attention

0:58:06.560 --> 0:58:08.640
<v Speaker 2>to her for a second. It also there's a little

0:58:08.640 --> 0:58:11.160
<v Speaker 2>bit of anti woman stuff in here, because Lewis notes

0:58:11.200 --> 0:58:15.280
<v Speaker 2>that I think Sam would minimize the window with her

0:58:15.320 --> 0:58:17.600
<v Speaker 2>face on it whenever she spoke and bring it back

0:58:17.680 --> 0:58:20.920
<v Speaker 2>up whenever he talked. Right, curiously, only when he was

0:58:20.960 --> 0:58:23.520
<v Speaker 2>talking did he want to see her, which I do

0:58:23.600 --> 0:58:28.840
<v Speaker 2>think there's a lot in that sentence. So yeahsting, Yeah.

0:58:28.880 --> 0:58:32.160
<v Speaker 2>It is again like the way Lewis describes this, this

0:58:32.240 --> 0:58:34.440
<v Speaker 2>isn't just yeah, he's not very disciplined, and he has

0:58:34.480 --> 0:58:36.880
<v Speaker 2>the same thing that like a lot of millennial and

0:58:36.960 --> 0:58:39.440
<v Speaker 2>gen Z people have, which is, you know, an inability

0:58:39.480 --> 0:58:42.840
<v Speaker 2>to stop distracting yourself no matter what important shit you're doing.

0:58:43.240 --> 0:58:47.000
<v Speaker 2>He describes this as SBF's brain being so big that

0:58:47.080 --> 0:58:50.000
<v Speaker 2>like games are he's like a Sherlock Holmes character and

0:58:50.080 --> 0:58:52.520
<v Speaker 2>games are his heroin. Right, Well, that makes me.

0:58:53.040 --> 0:58:56.120
<v Speaker 3>That indicates to me that Michael Lewis, because that's the

0:58:56.160 --> 0:58:59.520
<v Speaker 3>way that you're like, like you're doting parent would talk

0:58:59.520 --> 0:59:02.040
<v Speaker 3>about it, and like that's that is clear to me.

0:59:02.080 --> 0:59:03.920
<v Speaker 3>The way he sees him is like, wow, look at

0:59:03.920 --> 0:59:07.160
<v Speaker 3>this amazing kid. And also what SBF is doing here

0:59:07.280 --> 0:59:11.160
<v Speaker 3>is like the inverse of what most easily distracted millennial

0:59:11.200 --> 0:59:14.000
<v Speaker 3>and gen Z people are doing, which they're playing games

0:59:14.040 --> 0:59:17.120
<v Speaker 3>and explaining radical politics to you. They're not playing games

0:59:17.440 --> 0:59:20.640
<v Speaker 3>and talking to some like like half listening to someone

0:59:20.680 --> 0:59:23.040
<v Speaker 3>before they part with millions of dollars to throw the

0:59:23.040 --> 0:59:27.960
<v Speaker 3>world's stupidest annual party. Yeah, and I love that stupid

0:59:28.000 --> 0:59:28.600
<v Speaker 3>ass party.

0:59:29.040 --> 0:59:31.120
<v Speaker 2>It's it's I mean, I think both of those things

0:59:31.160 --> 0:59:33.760
<v Speaker 2>are on a similar level potentially, but it depends on

0:59:33.800 --> 0:59:36.600
<v Speaker 2>how you do them. And he's not actually good at it.

0:59:36.840 --> 0:59:40.080
<v Speaker 2>But the way Lewis describes this is he just is

0:59:40.120 --> 0:59:46.360
<v Speaker 2>in awe of this kid's ability to have attention deficit disorder. Quote. Yeah, absolutely,

0:59:46.440 --> 0:59:49.200
<v Speaker 2>said Sam. But his mind was elsewhere. The hoard dragon

0:59:49.360 --> 0:59:51.680
<v Speaker 2>was dead and a win tour had killed it. What

0:59:51.760 --> 0:59:53.760
<v Speaker 2>to do? He made a half hearted bid to begin

0:59:53.800 --> 0:59:56.320
<v Speaker 2>another game and pick another hero, but then changed his

0:59:56.360 --> 0:59:58.880
<v Speaker 2>mind and shut the game down. He could often occupy

0:59:58.920 --> 1:00:01.320
<v Speaker 2>two worlds at once in w in both. In this case,

1:00:01.360 --> 1:00:03.560
<v Speaker 2>he clearly stood no chance of winning in one world

1:00:03.640 --> 1:00:06.280
<v Speaker 2>unless he paid less attention in the other. And this woman,

1:00:06.360 --> 1:00:09.080
<v Speaker 2>somehow it acquired a spell that interfered with his abilities

1:00:09.120 --> 1:00:13.320
<v Speaker 2>to multitask. What an amazing way to write that paragraph.

1:00:14.160 --> 1:00:20.000
<v Speaker 2>Michael Lewis, dude, Oh god, it's it's something else. Like

1:00:20.280 --> 1:00:23.440
<v Speaker 2>I have played video games through some important work meetings.

1:00:23.600 --> 1:00:25.760
<v Speaker 2>Sophie has often had to pick my ass up off

1:00:25.800 --> 1:00:28.720
<v Speaker 2>that it's not because I'm a genius. It's because I'm

1:00:28.800 --> 1:00:32.439
<v Speaker 2>hungover and have trouble focusing because I use Twitter too much.

1:00:32.760 --> 1:00:35.840
<v Speaker 3>There's so many there's like so many, I mean whatever.

1:00:36.120 --> 1:00:38.240
<v Speaker 3>And also you have to imagine that this manuscript made

1:00:38.280 --> 1:00:41.240
<v Speaker 3>it through a lot. It speaks to how old people

1:00:41.520 --> 1:00:44.080
<v Speaker 3>in general who work in the public stitching industry are

1:00:44.360 --> 1:00:47.080
<v Speaker 3>that no one was like Michael, I have to tell

1:00:47.120 --> 1:00:49.360
<v Speaker 3>you that this is just how kids are these days.

1:00:49.400 --> 1:00:51.680
<v Speaker 2>He's a real venture game ganius. Yeah.

1:00:52.240 --> 1:00:53.840
<v Speaker 3>I mean it's like we've both written books. Like I

1:00:54.440 --> 1:00:57.400
<v Speaker 3>was surprised that I got the title of my book through,

1:00:57.760 --> 1:01:00.760
<v Speaker 3>but it was because people over sixty don't know what

1:01:01.160 --> 1:01:05.320
<v Speaker 3>raw Dog needs. And that's most people I'm publishing. Like,

1:01:05.360 --> 1:01:08.200
<v Speaker 3>it's ridiculous, that's so nuts that that made it to

1:01:08.240 --> 1:01:08.920
<v Speaker 3>the final book.

1:01:09.320 --> 1:01:13.320
<v Speaker 2>No, it's like that's yeah. So if you're not reading

1:01:13.320 --> 1:01:15.640
<v Speaker 2>critically and inclined to give Lewis the bit of the

1:01:15.680 --> 1:01:17.600
<v Speaker 2>benefit of the doubt, I can see how you might

1:01:17.960 --> 1:01:20.880
<v Speaker 2>assume that like he's trying to make Sam look kind

1:01:20.880 --> 1:01:23.160
<v Speaker 2>of silly in that paragraph. I can see how you

1:01:23.200 --> 1:01:25.800
<v Speaker 2>would assume that based on the text, but that is

1:01:25.840 --> 1:01:28.840
<v Speaker 2>not what's going on. Listener. Here is Lewis talking about

1:01:28.880 --> 1:01:32.320
<v Speaker 2>that exact same moment in an interview with Intelligence Squared

1:01:32.360 --> 1:01:33.440
<v Speaker 2>from about a month ago.

1:01:33.880 --> 1:01:37.720
<v Speaker 4>Yay, so on the screen zoom and a win tour,

1:01:38.560 --> 1:01:41.760
<v Speaker 4>and he does not know who she is. He doesn't

1:01:41.800 --> 1:01:45.480
<v Speaker 4>know what the purpose of the meeting is. He doesn't know, well,

1:01:45.520 --> 1:01:47.440
<v Speaker 4>the purpose of the meeting is can Sam Bank mcfreed

1:01:47.480 --> 1:01:49.840
<v Speaker 4>pay for the whole met gala? That's the purpose of

1:01:49.840 --> 1:01:52.200
<v Speaker 4>the meeting, because he'll pay for everything else. Why not that?

1:01:52.640 --> 1:01:54.600
<v Speaker 4>And she comes on the screen and she is dressed

1:01:54.640 --> 1:01:57.000
<v Speaker 4>to the nine. She's got those size of hair coming

1:01:57.040 --> 1:02:01.480
<v Speaker 4>down around her. She's like ready to kill and gorgeous.

1:02:01.520 --> 1:02:04.440
<v Speaker 4>You know, she looks great, She's well prepared. He's playing

1:02:04.600 --> 1:02:05.760
<v Speaker 4>Storybook Brawl.

1:02:05.520 --> 1:02:06.680
<v Speaker 2>Which is his video game.

1:02:06.960 --> 1:02:07.320
<v Speaker 3>Pause.

1:02:07.400 --> 1:02:09.000
<v Speaker 2>I hate the way he talks.

1:02:08.760 --> 1:02:10.800
<v Speaker 1>About Anna Wintour, Thank you very much.

1:02:11.080 --> 1:02:13.600
<v Speaker 2>Well, okay, okay, And first we can deal with that

1:02:13.680 --> 1:02:14.760
<v Speaker 2>in private, ze fair.

1:02:14.880 --> 1:02:16.800
<v Speaker 3>We can no, no, before we can talk about a

1:02:16.800 --> 1:02:20.440
<v Speaker 3>woman on a zoom call. Does she look gorgeous or yeah.

1:02:20.080 --> 1:02:22.360
<v Speaker 1>That's the point. It has nothing to do with Anna Winter. Also,

1:02:22.400 --> 1:02:24.200
<v Speaker 1>she looks like that all the time, Thank you so much.

1:02:24.360 --> 1:02:25.560
<v Speaker 2>It's her thing.

1:02:26.120 --> 1:02:29.040
<v Speaker 4>And wherever she comes on the screen, he blacks her

1:02:29.040 --> 1:02:31.520
<v Speaker 4>out and the video game pops up, so like she's

1:02:31.920 --> 1:02:37.520
<v Speaker 4>she's talking and and mons, minotaurs are killing, are killing dwarfs,

1:02:37.720 --> 1:02:41.840
<v Speaker 4>and trees with axes are coming in and like you know,

1:02:42.360 --> 1:02:45.240
<v Speaker 4>the weapons are appearing on the screen and people are

1:02:45.320 --> 1:02:48.200
<v Speaker 4>dying and exploding, and and you're hearing her talk about

1:02:48.240 --> 1:02:49.120
<v Speaker 4>the met Gala.

1:02:49.240 --> 1:02:52.240
<v Speaker 2>And there's seven minutes in when he hits.

1:02:52.080 --> 1:02:54.720
<v Speaker 4>A button in the Wikipedia entry for the met galap

1:02:54.800 --> 1:02:56.520
<v Speaker 4>comes up, so he can figure out what the hell

1:02:56.560 --> 1:02:57.480
<v Speaker 4>she's talking about.

1:02:58.320 --> 1:03:01.360
<v Speaker 2>And he's doing watched him do this. He's doing this

1:03:01.480 --> 1:03:01.760
<v Speaker 2>with her.

1:03:01.880 --> 1:03:04.200
<v Speaker 4>This is what he was doing on live television when

1:03:04.240 --> 1:03:05.800
<v Speaker 4>he would be interviewed by Bloomberg TV.

1:03:06.120 --> 1:03:08.000
<v Speaker 2>It was like and he had tricks.

1:03:08.600 --> 1:03:10.360
<v Speaker 4>He took him about one tenth of his brain to

1:03:10.400 --> 1:03:14.280
<v Speaker 4>have a conversation with Anna Wintour, And what he would

1:03:14.320 --> 1:03:17.520
<v Speaker 4>do other part of his brain was either reading about

1:03:17.560 --> 1:03:21.280
<v Speaker 4>who she was or playing his game. And what he'd

1:03:21.280 --> 1:03:24.080
<v Speaker 4>do is he'd say, you asked me a question. He'd say,

1:03:24.920 --> 1:03:28.120
<v Speaker 4>that's a really good question. It's a really good question.

1:03:28.200 --> 1:03:30.040
<v Speaker 4>Let me think about that for a minute. You know, meanwhile,

1:03:30.080 --> 1:03:32.360
<v Speaker 4>the minutaur is killing the tree and he comes off

1:03:32.360 --> 1:03:34.000
<v Speaker 4>and then he thinks for a minute, and he says

1:03:34.160 --> 1:03:35.200
<v Speaker 4>some boilerplate thing.

1:03:36.120 --> 1:03:40.360
<v Speaker 2>So that does not show genius. He's obviously the smile

1:03:40.400 --> 1:03:42.800
<v Speaker 2>on his face, that is not him being critical. That's

1:03:42.880 --> 1:03:47.480
<v Speaker 2>him thinking about like, that's him fawning over this kid

1:03:47.200 --> 1:03:51.960
<v Speaker 2>for not being prepared for a multimillion dollar meeting, right,

1:03:52.280 --> 1:03:55.640
<v Speaker 2>which is like, fine, but that's not an example of

1:03:55.720 --> 1:03:56.640
<v Speaker 2>him being smart.

1:03:57.400 --> 1:04:00.440
<v Speaker 3>Well, And I think that that is a clear pattered

1:04:00.480 --> 1:04:04.040
<v Speaker 3>in the way that we cover the like young white

1:04:04.120 --> 1:04:06.680
<v Speaker 3>kid genius who comes from a rich background. There's a

1:04:06.720 --> 1:04:11.040
<v Speaker 3>lot of similarities in how early Mark Zuckerberg's like casual

1:04:11.080 --> 1:04:15.400
<v Speaker 3>misogyny and not giving a ship about people was like

1:04:15.480 --> 1:04:17.919
<v Speaker 3>part and parcel to why he was cool and why

1:04:17.960 --> 1:04:20.680
<v Speaker 3>he was seen as a visionary. Like that the same

1:04:20.760 --> 1:04:23.640
<v Speaker 3>is truth. Like just I mean, I feel like every

1:04:23.720 --> 1:04:26.480
<v Speaker 3>generation has at least one of these guys, and they're

1:04:26.520 --> 1:04:28.360
<v Speaker 3>all covered in the same way. No one ever learns

1:04:28.360 --> 1:04:30.800
<v Speaker 3>their lesson because the guy covering them is often the

1:04:30.880 --> 1:04:38.120
<v Speaker 3>same guy. Literally Michael Lewis and often literally Michael Lewis.

1:04:38.120 --> 1:04:40.920
<v Speaker 1>How did how did okay, I'm sorry, how did this

1:04:41.000 --> 1:04:42.360
<v Speaker 1>revolve with Anna Wintour?

1:04:42.480 --> 1:04:44.240
<v Speaker 3>Did she like the fact that she.

1:04:44.200 --> 1:04:46.920
<v Speaker 2>Didn't he said, He says, yeah, I'll pay for it,

1:04:46.960 --> 1:04:48.240
<v Speaker 2>and then he just ghosts her.

1:04:48.560 --> 1:04:51.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So the fact that Anna wind Tour didn't like

1:04:51.440 --> 1:04:55.480
<v Speaker 1>like smoke out that he was like fully a fraud

1:04:56.520 --> 1:04:58.560
<v Speaker 1>at the girlies.

1:04:58.800 --> 1:05:00.000
<v Speaker 2>The girlies are disappointed.

1:05:00.840 --> 1:05:05.000
<v Speaker 3>I'm not caping for Anna Wintor here, but the famously.

1:05:04.520 --> 1:05:05.840
<v Speaker 1>Named the Dragon Lady.

1:05:05.880 --> 1:05:09.720
<v Speaker 3>Well, no, SBF is lucky that he'll never encounter Bill

1:05:09.800 --> 1:05:11.960
<v Speaker 3>Nai because Bill for Bill Nihey, it would be on

1:05:11.960 --> 1:05:12.240
<v Speaker 3>the phone.

1:05:12.320 --> 1:05:13.680
<v Speaker 2>Bill would fuck him.

1:05:15.960 --> 1:05:18.720
<v Speaker 3>So he was an I Frankenstein for crying. He was

1:05:18.760 --> 1:05:23.280
<v Speaker 3>in Detective pikat Chip break was broken like my brain.

1:05:23.960 --> 1:05:28.360
<v Speaker 2>So Bra, these are these are amusing anecdotes right what

1:05:28.480 --> 1:05:31.080
<v Speaker 2>he's what he's telling. Potentially, if you are someone who

1:05:31.120 --> 1:05:34.040
<v Speaker 2>is critical about him, that same anecdote could could form

1:05:34.160 --> 1:05:38.160
<v Speaker 2>part of your thesis about why this kid got away

1:05:38.160 --> 1:05:40.400
<v Speaker 2>with it and for so long and why he ultimately

1:05:40.440 --> 1:05:43.240
<v Speaker 2>flamed out. But Lewis is convinced that these show you

1:05:43.280 --> 1:05:45.760
<v Speaker 2>evidence of Sam's genius, and he sets this up early

1:05:45.800 --> 1:05:48.880
<v Speaker 2>in the book, talking about Sam's childhood quote. He had

1:05:48.920 --> 1:05:51.800
<v Speaker 2>a fault line inside him. Pressure was building on it,

1:05:51.920 --> 1:05:54.880
<v Speaker 2>and one day in the seventh grade, he slipped. His

1:05:54.960 --> 1:05:57.680
<v Speaker 2>mother returned from work to find Sam alone in despair.

1:05:58.040 --> 1:06:00.200
<v Speaker 2>I came home and he was crying. Recalled by b

1:06:00.480 --> 1:06:05.720
<v Speaker 2>he said, I'm so bored, I'm going to die, and like, oh, yeah,

1:06:05.800 --> 1:06:09.040
<v Speaker 2>I have had a similar conversation with my mom. And

1:06:09.080 --> 1:06:11.520
<v Speaker 2>it's a sign. You know, certainly Sam has been diagnosed

1:06:11.520 --> 1:06:14.800
<v Speaker 2>with ADHD. That's certainly one way in which that can manifest.

1:06:14.880 --> 1:06:18.000
<v Speaker 1>I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Hold on one for the girlies again.

1:06:18.040 --> 1:06:20.440
<v Speaker 1>That is a direct quote from Sex and the City.

1:06:20.680 --> 1:06:21.600
<v Speaker 2>Oh okay, that is.

1:06:21.560 --> 1:06:23.479
<v Speaker 1>A direct quote from a Sex in the City.

1:06:23.840 --> 1:06:27.040
<v Speaker 2>Sure, I'm sure Sam's a big Samantha.

1:06:26.680 --> 1:06:28.040
<v Speaker 3>Hey who says it?

1:06:28.440 --> 1:06:30.320
<v Speaker 1>But she goes, I'm so bored I could die And

1:06:30.360 --> 1:06:32.320
<v Speaker 1>she jumps out of and she falls out of the window.

1:06:32.360 --> 1:06:36.920
<v Speaker 3>Oh my god. Really one of the most famous in

1:06:36.920 --> 1:06:37.320
<v Speaker 3>the city.

1:06:37.680 --> 1:06:42.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I don't remember that anyway. So, because like Lewis again, again,

1:06:42.800 --> 1:06:44.479
<v Speaker 2>if you're if you're just kind of being honest about

1:06:44.520 --> 1:06:46.640
<v Speaker 2>Sam writing a book, he might be like, well, Sam

1:06:46.680 --> 1:06:50.120
<v Speaker 2>gets diagnosed with ADHD. This moment makes total sense as like, yeah,

1:06:50.160 --> 1:06:52.840
<v Speaker 2>this is a kid who's got ADHD and he's also

1:06:53.080 --> 1:06:55.160
<v Speaker 2>you know, good at math and stuff. He's bored in

1:06:55.200 --> 1:06:58.720
<v Speaker 2>the classes that he's in. But Lewis does not acknowledge

1:06:58.760 --> 1:07:01.520
<v Speaker 2>that Sam has ADHD in his book. He doesn't say

1:07:01.560 --> 1:07:05.080
<v Speaker 2>anything about it because that would that's not a bad thing, obviously,

1:07:05.400 --> 1:07:08.000
<v Speaker 2>but it's also that you like, you're not a genius

1:07:08.040 --> 1:07:10.800
<v Speaker 2>just because you have ADHD. Right, plenty of people who

1:07:10.840 --> 1:07:13.760
<v Speaker 2>are not super geniuses have ADHD. It's just a thing.

1:07:14.680 --> 1:07:17.400
<v Speaker 3>Well, and it's like if you're if you're talking about

1:07:17.600 --> 1:07:21.040
<v Speaker 3>that behavior and I want to be like delicate, and

1:07:21.040 --> 1:07:24.240
<v Speaker 3>then they talk about it, but it's like it's contextually important.

1:07:25.320 --> 1:07:27.200
<v Speaker 2>If you proceed from the principle like, yeah, this is

1:07:27.200 --> 1:07:30.720
<v Speaker 2>a kid with ADHD, then there's another explanation for his

1:07:30.760 --> 1:07:33.360
<v Speaker 2>addiction to games, his inability to focus on stuff, right

1:07:33.600 --> 1:07:35.800
<v Speaker 2>and it it and then it means those things aren't

1:07:35.800 --> 1:07:39.640
<v Speaker 2>a sign of his brilliance right now. Part of why

1:07:39.680 --> 1:07:41.840
<v Speaker 2>I'm critical of Michael for this is that he does

1:07:41.920 --> 1:07:45.240
<v Speaker 2>make a note about one character's ADHD in the book,

1:07:45.440 --> 1:07:48.520
<v Speaker 2>and it's Carolyn Ellison, who comes across as one of

1:07:48.520 --> 1:07:50.840
<v Speaker 2>the villains in the book. And I should note that

1:07:50.880 --> 1:07:53.080
<v Speaker 2>the following paragraph comes to me part of the book

1:07:53.240 --> 1:07:56.160
<v Speaker 2>where Lewis is talking to George, who is a therapist

1:07:56.400 --> 1:07:59.880
<v Speaker 2>who worked for FTX as the company shrink. So, among

1:08:00.000 --> 1:08:04.120
<v Speaker 2>other things, this is a therapist talking about his patient. Right, Okay.

1:08:04.880 --> 1:08:07.080
<v Speaker 2>When she'd first come to him back in twenty eighteen,

1:08:07.160 --> 1:08:09.480
<v Speaker 2>she'd had two issues. She wanted to talk about, her

1:08:09.520 --> 1:08:13.440
<v Speaker 2>attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and her new and emotionally complicated

1:08:13.440 --> 1:08:17.240
<v Speaker 2>polyamorous lifestyle. Every subsequent session after the first, Carolyn came

1:08:17.280 --> 1:08:20.040
<v Speaker 2>back with just one issue. She wanted to discuss Sam.

1:08:20.400 --> 1:08:23.040
<v Speaker 2>She'd fallen in love with Sam. Sam didn't love her back,

1:08:23.160 --> 1:08:25.679
<v Speaker 2>and that fact alone left her deeply unhappy. I thought

1:08:25.680 --> 1:08:27.800
<v Speaker 2>of her as an exception, said George. I thought she

1:08:27.920 --> 1:08:30.840
<v Speaker 2>might be willing to trade effective altruism for reciprocation of

1:08:30.880 --> 1:08:33.880
<v Speaker 2>love any day. Right, Sorry, how is it?

1:08:34.200 --> 1:08:34.280
<v Speaker 1>Like?

1:08:34.560 --> 1:08:38.200
<v Speaker 3>I mean, I truly like, how was it even legal

1:08:38.320 --> 1:08:40.439
<v Speaker 3>or ethical for this information.

1:08:40.000 --> 1:08:43.000
<v Speaker 2>To I don't actually know. I don't like that truly,

1:08:43.000 --> 1:08:44.280
<v Speaker 2>because it seems.

1:08:44.439 --> 1:08:46.800
<v Speaker 3>You're not supposed to be able to do like. They're

1:08:46.840 --> 1:08:48.439
<v Speaker 3>famously not supposed to be able to do that. And

1:08:48.520 --> 1:08:51.320
<v Speaker 3>also not to like overly come to her defense. But

1:08:51.360 --> 1:08:56.880
<v Speaker 3>also it's like that if anyone's therapy logs were leaked,

1:08:56.880 --> 1:08:59.000
<v Speaker 3>it would be like, oh, they had this fixation on

1:08:59.040 --> 1:09:02.720
<v Speaker 3>this issue. Yeah, that's why you fucking go dude, you know,

1:09:02.880 --> 1:09:04.760
<v Speaker 3>go there to be a reasoned person.

1:09:05.000 --> 1:09:08.080
<v Speaker 2>No, and especially since like what's what's messy to me

1:09:08.160 --> 1:09:10.040
<v Speaker 2>is that he brings that he makes sure to bring

1:09:10.080 --> 1:09:12.840
<v Speaker 2>this up with Carolyn because he's kind of writing that

1:09:12.920 --> 1:09:16.360
<v Speaker 2>like she was unreliable, she wasn't focusing enough, she was

1:09:16.400 --> 1:09:22.200
<v Speaker 2>in love with him, hysterical, whereas he's just this misunderstood genius.

1:09:22.520 --> 1:09:25.240
<v Speaker 2>But he notes her ADHD and he doesn't note Sam's,

1:09:25.240 --> 1:09:28.160
<v Speaker 2>even though Sam's ADHD is a matter of public fucking record. Now,

1:09:28.600 --> 1:09:31.439
<v Speaker 2>like his family went to court to get him his

1:09:31.520 --> 1:09:34.160
<v Speaker 2>medicine a thing.

1:09:34.160 --> 1:09:37.920
<v Speaker 3>It's like not even looking that he particularly tries to obscure, right, No,

1:09:38.120 --> 1:09:39.720
<v Speaker 3>like no, yeah.

1:09:39.200 --> 1:09:41.599
<v Speaker 2>And again it's critical to understand him because it provides

1:09:41.640 --> 1:09:44.719
<v Speaker 2>an alternate explanation for all this behavior that Lewis chalks

1:09:44.800 --> 1:09:47.920
<v Speaker 2>up to him just like only needing ten percent of

1:09:47.920 --> 1:09:52.840
<v Speaker 2>his brain to talk to people. Yeah, now there's another

1:09:53.080 --> 1:09:55.800
<v Speaker 2>like there's another very fun bit in this which kind

1:09:55.800 --> 1:09:57.479
<v Speaker 2>of relates to that, which is that, and this is

1:09:57.479 --> 1:09:59.519
<v Speaker 2>like the weirdest through line in Going Infinite, which is

1:09:59.760 --> 1:10:03.800
<v Speaker 2>my Lewis does not understand games right like he is,

1:10:03.880 --> 1:10:06.920
<v Speaker 2>so he writes about like video games and board games

1:10:06.920 --> 1:10:09.720
<v Speaker 2>and other popular nerd pastimes that are now like the

1:10:09.840 --> 1:10:13.320
<v Speaker 2>dominant form of entertainment by money in our country. He

1:10:13.360 --> 1:10:16.160
<v Speaker 2>talks about them like he's an alien who's just arrived

1:10:16.200 --> 1:10:20.200
<v Speaker 2>on the planet. And as a result, he talks about

1:10:20.200 --> 1:10:22.479
<v Speaker 2>Sam's embrace of this stuff at the expense of everything

1:10:22.479 --> 1:10:25.960
<v Speaker 2>else to be evidence of brilliance. Quote. He felt nothing

1:10:26.000 --> 1:10:28.960
<v Speaker 2>in the presence of art. He found religion absurd. He

1:10:29.000 --> 1:10:31.519
<v Speaker 2>thought both right wing and left wing political opinions kind

1:10:31.520 --> 1:10:33.720
<v Speaker 2>of dumb, less a consequence of thought than of their

1:10:33.760 --> 1:10:36.920
<v Speaker 2>holder's tribal identity. He and his family ignored the rituals

1:10:36.920 --> 1:10:40.200
<v Speaker 2>that punctuated most people's existence. He didn't even celebrate his

1:10:40.240 --> 1:10:43.160
<v Speaker 2>own birthday. What gave pleasure and solace and a sense

1:10:43.200 --> 1:10:46.000
<v Speaker 2>of belonging to others left Sam cold. When the bankman

1:10:46.040 --> 1:10:48.360
<v Speaker 2>Freeds traveled to Europe, Sam realized that he was just

1:10:48.360 --> 1:10:51.240
<v Speaker 2>staring at a lot of old buildings for no particular reason.

1:10:51.600 --> 1:10:53.840
<v Speaker 2>We did a few trips, he said, I basically hated

1:10:53.880 --> 1:10:58.320
<v Speaker 2>it to his unrelenting alienation. There was only one exception. Games.

1:10:58.760 --> 1:11:01.240
<v Speaker 2>In sixth grade, Sam learned of had a game called

1:11:01.320 --> 1:11:04.000
<v Speaker 2>Magic the Gathering. For the next four years, it was

1:11:04.040 --> 1:11:07.000
<v Speaker 2>the only activity that consumed him faster than he could

1:11:07.040 --> 1:11:12.080
<v Speaker 2>consume it. And this is so funny because like Lewis

1:11:12.120 --> 1:11:15.920
<v Speaker 2>has to describe Magic the Gathering after this point, and

1:11:15.960 --> 1:11:20.240
<v Speaker 2>he like he describes it basically it's the first game

1:11:20.320 --> 1:11:23.680
<v Speaker 2>ever made where like you like the way that you

1:11:23.760 --> 1:11:26.639
<v Speaker 2>play it, like it's it's different, Like every character can

1:11:26.680 --> 1:11:29.280
<v Speaker 2>come into this strategy game with a different set of equipment.

1:11:29.520 --> 1:11:31.599
<v Speaker 2>No one had ever done this before. It was all

1:11:31.680 --> 1:11:34.080
<v Speaker 2>like chess where everyone's the same. And it's like, no,

1:11:34.120 --> 1:11:37.439
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't. There were decades, decades of war games and

1:11:37.479 --> 1:11:44.559
<v Speaker 2>strategy games that Magic was influenced by. Like, that's just wrong, Michael, Now, hold.

1:11:44.400 --> 1:11:48.040
<v Speaker 3>On, hold on magic, Yeah, hold on nerd any any

1:11:48.760 --> 1:11:52.479
<v Speaker 3>put up. I I do think that like this is

1:11:54.000 --> 1:11:57.200
<v Speaker 3>of the because because I don't play Magic the Gathering

1:11:57.400 --> 1:12:01.280
<v Speaker 3>and I know that how he's describing it is, I was.

1:12:01.160 --> 1:12:03.360
<v Speaker 2>Like, it's so wrong. Yeah, I think that.

1:12:03.400 --> 1:12:06.680
<v Speaker 3>Speaks word to like a generation gap, because I think

1:12:06.720 --> 1:12:09.519
<v Speaker 3>that you're someone who could be on the opposite side

1:12:09.520 --> 1:12:13.519
<v Speaker 3>of SBF and equally with it. Like it's just like

1:12:14.240 --> 1:12:15.120
<v Speaker 3>do your research.

1:12:15.479 --> 1:12:16.120
<v Speaker 2>Just talk to it.

1:12:16.760 --> 1:12:18.760
<v Speaker 3>Just talk to someone who plays Magic the Gathering. They

1:12:18.800 --> 1:12:20.519
<v Speaker 3>famously love to talk about it.

1:12:20.400 --> 1:12:23.080
<v Speaker 2>And it's it's funny because he's like he has to

1:12:23.120 --> 1:12:25.320
<v Speaker 2>make this, Like he goes on a limb about like

1:12:25.439 --> 1:12:28.280
<v Speaker 2>Sam Bankman Freed couldn't didn't like chess. It was too boring.

1:12:28.479 --> 1:12:31.880
<v Speaker 2>There were too few possibilities, like you could calculate everything,

1:12:31.920 --> 1:12:39.040
<v Speaker 2>like his computer brain wasn't amused by chess. Only Yeah,

1:12:39.280 --> 1:12:42.080
<v Speaker 2>it's so funny. It's like, man, my friends and I

1:12:42.160 --> 1:12:44.720
<v Speaker 2>all played Magic the Gathering and like as a spoiler,

1:12:45.040 --> 1:12:47.560
<v Speaker 2>some people looked into Sam's like performance in League of

1:12:47.680 --> 1:12:50.040
<v Speaker 2>Legends and the Other only he was never good at anything.

1:12:50.120 --> 1:12:52.960
<v Speaker 2>He was not very good. He wasn't particularly bad, but

1:12:52.960 --> 1:12:55.000
<v Speaker 2>he was not very good. And I'm gonna guess he

1:12:55.120 --> 1:12:58.240
<v Speaker 2>was indifferent at Magic the Gathering because you know, like

1:12:58.400 --> 1:13:01.160
<v Speaker 2>it's it is not a great it's a wonderful game,

1:13:01.439 --> 1:13:05.000
<v Speaker 2>not a great like yardstick for your intelligence, you know, Oh,

1:13:05.120 --> 1:13:06.360
<v Speaker 2>it's just a guard game.

1:13:06.720 --> 1:13:09.800
<v Speaker 3>No one should be uh, I mean not, but like

1:13:09.880 --> 1:13:12.360
<v Speaker 3>no one should be judged by their intelligence, by how

1:13:12.400 --> 1:13:14.559
<v Speaker 3>they interact with like a beloved hobby.

1:13:14.720 --> 1:13:18.880
<v Speaker 2>That's weird. Yeah, it's so weird, and it's like it's

1:13:18.920 --> 1:13:21.559
<v Speaker 2>interesting because like Sam's parents, A big part of this

1:13:21.600 --> 1:13:23.639
<v Speaker 2>section is like he comes home and he's like, I'm

1:13:23.640 --> 1:13:27.000
<v Speaker 2>so bored, I can't I want to die, and his

1:13:27.320 --> 1:13:29.040
<v Speaker 2>you know, his parents do what I think is the

1:13:29.080 --> 1:13:31.120
<v Speaker 2>right thing. They lead the charge to get their school

1:13:31.160 --> 1:13:33.840
<v Speaker 2>to add like an advanced math class, and it seems

1:13:33.840 --> 1:13:35.560
<v Speaker 2>to have a good impact on him. He's excited to

1:13:35.600 --> 1:13:37.840
<v Speaker 2>go to school now, and that's a good thing. But

1:13:37.920 --> 1:13:40.120
<v Speaker 2>what we find hints of in parts of this story,

1:13:40.160 --> 1:13:42.560
<v Speaker 2>and I don't think Lewis is able either knows it

1:13:42.640 --> 1:13:45.120
<v Speaker 2>or is able to admit it to himself, is the

1:13:45.240 --> 1:13:49.040
<v Speaker 2>troubling fact that once Sam's parents decide he's a math genius,

1:13:49.479 --> 1:13:52.280
<v Speaker 2>they they don't bother to make him into a well

1:13:52.360 --> 1:13:56.040
<v Speaker 2>rounded person. Sam grows up hating art. He thinks books

1:13:56.080 --> 1:13:58.960
<v Speaker 2>are useless. He has this big rant he goes about like, well,

1:13:59.040 --> 1:14:01.400
<v Speaker 2>there's no way that shape is the best author ever,

1:14:01.479 --> 1:14:03.800
<v Speaker 2>because there have been this many billion people born since

1:14:03.840 --> 1:14:05.840
<v Speaker 2>he was alive, and if you want to calculate the

1:14:05.880 --> 1:14:08.280
<v Speaker 2>odds that none of them were better at writing than him,

1:14:08.280 --> 1:14:11.479
<v Speaker 2>then there's really no reason to read Shakespeare. And it's like, well, Sam,

1:14:11.520 --> 1:14:13.280
<v Speaker 2>the fact that you think that means that like no

1:14:13.320 --> 1:14:17.479
<v Speaker 2>one even casually tried to teach you the humanities, because like,

1:14:17.520 --> 1:14:20.200
<v Speaker 2>the reason you should study Shakespeare is not that he's

1:14:20.200 --> 1:14:23.360
<v Speaker 2>the quote unquote best author ever. That doesn't exist. It's

1:14:23.400 --> 1:14:25.280
<v Speaker 2>that there is not a day in your life or

1:14:25.320 --> 1:14:27.240
<v Speaker 2>the life of anyone that you love that they don't

1:14:27.320 --> 1:14:31.520
<v Speaker 2>use words and phrases Shakespeare introduced to the English language.

1:14:31.560 --> 1:14:32.679
<v Speaker 2>That's why he's important.

1:14:32.720 --> 1:14:35.479
<v Speaker 3>Don't get me wrong, Sam, I also don't want.

1:14:35.280 --> 1:14:40.560
<v Speaker 5>To read a book, but I there sometimes were Sometimes

1:14:40.600 --> 1:14:42.720
<v Speaker 5>that's just what you need to do to understand the

1:14:42.760 --> 1:14:45.360
<v Speaker 5>world and not go to prison for forever because you're

1:14:45.400 --> 1:14:46.920
<v Speaker 5>a gambler or just.

1:14:46.920 --> 1:14:49.680
<v Speaker 3>Be willing to fucking google your way around it. Like

1:14:49.720 --> 1:14:51.720
<v Speaker 3>that you're not better than Shakespeare.

1:14:52.120 --> 1:14:52.360
<v Speaker 2>Weird.

1:14:52.680 --> 1:14:55.160
<v Speaker 3>There is like an element of like there are certain

1:14:56.200 --> 1:15:01.800
<v Speaker 3>the lower side of sbf L's that he takes in

1:15:01.840 --> 1:15:05.200
<v Speaker 3>the statements he makes. He sounds like like a one

1:15:05.240 --> 1:15:06.839
<v Speaker 3>episode Fraser character.

1:15:07.160 --> 1:15:09.120
<v Speaker 2>Yes, you know, he sounds like.

1:15:09.560 --> 1:15:13.479
<v Speaker 3>Freddy made a friend and he fucking sucks and.

1:15:13.439 --> 1:15:14.759
<v Speaker 2>He's a piece as shit.

1:15:15.400 --> 1:15:19.640
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and then he even polarizes Fraser and Niles. And

1:15:19.680 --> 1:15:21.439
<v Speaker 3>that's how you know you're in fucking trouble.

1:15:21.840 --> 1:15:25.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, when Niles Niles is like, this kid's kind

1:15:25.080 --> 1:15:26.200
<v Speaker 2>of got a fucking problem.

1:15:26.439 --> 1:15:30.479
<v Speaker 3>This kid's incomprehensible. I wouldn't I wouldn't share a glass

1:15:30.479 --> 1:15:31.559
<v Speaker 3>of brandy with him.

1:15:31.760 --> 1:15:33.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And man, if you know Niles, you know what

1:15:34.000 --> 1:15:38.120
<v Speaker 2>that takes. Hey, everyone, Robert here just wanted a quick

1:15:38.520 --> 1:15:41.240
<v Speaker 2>note that the next like the last like five or

1:15:41.280 --> 1:15:44.160
<v Speaker 2>six minutes of this episode is all Fraser. It's all

1:15:44.240 --> 1:15:46.400
<v Speaker 2>all all Fraser talk. Jamie and I got off on

1:15:46.400 --> 1:15:48.800
<v Speaker 2>a tangent. There is a lot more Sam Bankman Freed

1:15:48.800 --> 1:15:50.800
<v Speaker 2>than Part two. It's another like hour and twenty minutes,

1:15:50.840 --> 1:15:54.320
<v Speaker 2>so plenty more on Thursday. But as heads up in

1:15:54.360 --> 1:15:56.960
<v Speaker 2>case it's kind of confusing, we just we just wound

1:15:57.040 --> 1:15:59.360
<v Speaker 2>up in a Fraser hole after this point. So if

1:15:59.360 --> 1:16:02.160
<v Speaker 2>you want to hear us talk about Frasier, this is

1:16:02.200 --> 1:16:08.280
<v Speaker 2>your chance. Speaking of David Hyde Peers, Jamie Loftus, you

1:16:08.360 --> 1:16:11.200
<v Speaker 2>are starring in a floor show with David Hyde Peers

1:16:12.400 --> 1:16:16.320
<v Speaker 2>based on the life of Kelsey Grammar. Actually you are

1:16:16.360 --> 1:16:20.240
<v Speaker 2>playing Kelsey. You spent like Michael Lewis a full year

1:16:20.320 --> 1:16:22.680
<v Speaker 2>living with him to really get his character down. What

1:16:22.720 --> 1:16:23.120
<v Speaker 2>was that like?

1:16:25.000 --> 1:16:29.160
<v Speaker 3>Look, it was pretty hostile. It was pretty hostile. And

1:16:29.360 --> 1:16:32.360
<v Speaker 3>in the subsequent publishings that I've made, a lot of

1:16:32.360 --> 1:16:36.639
<v Speaker 3>people have said that I couldn't explain the video games

1:16:36.800 --> 1:16:39.640
<v Speaker 3>that Kelsey Grammer was playing for the year that I

1:16:39.720 --> 1:16:44.040
<v Speaker 3>was following him around, and I resent that I was

1:16:44.120 --> 1:16:47.360
<v Speaker 3>in the room with Kelsey while he was berating women

1:16:47.479 --> 1:16:50.639
<v Speaker 3>on the phone. And I think that that makes him

1:16:50.720 --> 1:16:52.759
<v Speaker 3>a genius. I think that that makes him a genius.

1:16:52.800 --> 1:16:55.679
<v Speaker 3>And you know, do I believe he's the greatest sitcom

1:16:55.720 --> 1:16:58.800
<v Speaker 3>actor of all time? Well, I'll keep that to myself,

1:16:58.840 --> 1:17:01.400
<v Speaker 3>but wink wink. I think that he's kind of a

1:17:01.439 --> 1:17:05.559
<v Speaker 3>beautiful genius and is above criticism. And if you don't

1:17:05.600 --> 1:17:07.800
<v Speaker 3>think that he's kind of the perfect person, or if

1:17:07.840 --> 1:17:10.880
<v Speaker 3>you even like just we read his Wikipedia page in

1:17:10.920 --> 1:17:14.680
<v Speaker 3>four am an opinion, I beg to disagree.

1:17:15.040 --> 1:17:19.720
<v Speaker 2>And I do love I love Kelsey Grammar stories from

1:17:19.760 --> 1:17:22.240
<v Speaker 2>the head of Fraser because they're all like members of

1:17:22.280 --> 1:17:25.439
<v Speaker 2>the cast being like, well, yeah, he was very like

1:17:25.479 --> 1:17:28.160
<v Speaker 2>he came on set and he had clearly just woken

1:17:28.240 --> 1:17:32.040
<v Speaker 2>up after vomiting up his seven martini lunch. He looked

1:17:32.120 --> 1:17:34.720
<v Speaker 2>like he was dying. We were all worried that he

1:17:34.880 --> 1:17:37.519
<v Speaker 2>was going to drop dead that day, and then the

1:17:37.560 --> 1:17:42.080
<v Speaker 2>director called action and he was immediately care He was perfect,

1:17:42.439 --> 1:17:42.800
<v Speaker 2>He was.

1:17:42.760 --> 1:17:49.160
<v Speaker 3>Beautiful, his chest hair hurt like We'll never know I was.

1:17:49.240 --> 1:17:53.040
<v Speaker 3>I mean, I was fixated on Fraser reruns when I

1:17:53.080 --> 1:17:54.880
<v Speaker 3>was a kid. I would stand late to watch them.

1:17:54.960 --> 1:17:56.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's one of my conference shows for sure.

1:17:56.600 --> 1:18:00.599
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, the best. And like when I remember remember getting

1:18:00.760 --> 1:18:05.000
<v Speaker 3>Kelsey Grammer's like memoir from the library and read that

1:18:05.040 --> 1:18:07.599
<v Speaker 3>he broke up with his wife on the phone, and

1:18:07.640 --> 1:18:09.160
<v Speaker 3>it may have been one of the first times that

1:18:09.200 --> 1:18:13.080
<v Speaker 3>I was like, wow, Wow, men are scary.

1:18:13.320 --> 1:18:15.200
<v Speaker 2>You can just do that.

1:18:15.320 --> 1:18:17.640
<v Speaker 3>You could just be Kelsey Grammar and be evil and

1:18:17.680 --> 1:18:21.000
<v Speaker 3>then and I will still like base my sexuality on

1:18:21.200 --> 1:18:22.000
<v Speaker 3>you forever.

1:18:22.439 --> 1:18:27.120
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely seem fair. Who's among us, right, ah man? But

1:18:27.320 --> 1:18:30.519
<v Speaker 2>I will say, having watched the new Fraser show, it

1:18:30.560 --> 1:18:33.479
<v Speaker 2>becomes very clear how much of that show's charm was

1:18:33.560 --> 1:18:35.240
<v Speaker 2>John Mahoney and David Hyde Pierce.

1:18:35.560 --> 1:18:39.000
<v Speaker 3>Oh well, I think tell Kelsey's doing I mean, and

1:18:39.040 --> 1:18:41.120
<v Speaker 3>he's an evil person. He's doing his damn best.

1:18:41.280 --> 1:18:43.680
<v Speaker 2>He is, he is perfect. He is like literally his

1:18:43.760 --> 1:18:46.360
<v Speaker 2>voice is not changed in twenty years, which is remarkable.

1:18:46.360 --> 1:18:50.360
<v Speaker 3>No, and he's been, you know, physically preserved well enough.

1:18:50.880 --> 1:18:52.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. One of the big problems that show has is

1:18:52.960 --> 1:18:56.920
<v Speaker 2>they've cast that kid as Niles and Daphne's son, and

1:18:57.120 --> 1:18:59.240
<v Speaker 2>they're relying on him to hold up a lot of

1:18:59.240 --> 1:19:01.360
<v Speaker 2>the physical con many ends that David and Hyde Pierce

1:19:01.479 --> 1:19:03.599
<v Speaker 2>used to. And if if you are going up next

1:19:03.600 --> 1:19:07.400
<v Speaker 2>to David Hyde Peers in like a physical comedy competition,

1:19:07.600 --> 1:19:12.799
<v Speaker 2>you're gonna look like shit fu. David Peers like he's

1:19:12.920 --> 1:19:13.960
<v Speaker 2>the guy. Robert.

1:19:14.000 --> 1:19:16.320
<v Speaker 3>I thought you would love the Fraser reboot because it's

1:19:16.360 --> 1:19:19.040
<v Speaker 3>some of the most abysmal Boston accents I've ever heard

1:19:19.080 --> 1:19:20.040
<v Speaker 3>of my fucking Lutch.

1:19:20.040 --> 1:19:23.280
<v Speaker 2>Don't get me wrong, I've watched every episode, some.

1:19:23.240 --> 1:19:27.000
<v Speaker 3>Of the nastiest little I have to like pause sometimes

1:19:27.080 --> 1:19:31.840
<v Speaker 3>and like get a water. Yeah, I like walk nearly

1:19:31.880 --> 1:19:36.000
<v Speaker 3>that acsence. Yeah, I mean you have and I have

1:19:36.280 --> 1:19:38.280
<v Speaker 3>conceded long ago that you've got it down.

1:19:38.640 --> 1:19:41.800
<v Speaker 2>Thank you, thank you well. Anything to plug Jamie after

1:19:41.880 --> 1:19:45.640
<v Speaker 2>our five minute Fraser digression, Well, i'd like to.

1:19:45.920 --> 1:19:47.720
<v Speaker 3>I guess I'd like to plug the Fraser reboot because

1:19:47.720 --> 1:19:48.880
<v Speaker 3>I would like a second season.

1:19:49.439 --> 1:19:51.839
<v Speaker 2>Check it out, everybody. It's not ship.

1:19:52.520 --> 1:19:58.400
<v Speaker 3>It's on Paramount Plus. And I also just read read

1:19:58.520 --> 1:20:03.519
<v Speaker 3>Raw Dog and follow me online. You're so inclined. And

1:20:03.600 --> 1:20:06.000
<v Speaker 3>that's that's all I have to say. Listen to the

1:20:06.000 --> 1:20:07.400
<v Speaker 3>Bexel Cast while you're at it. Why not?

1:20:08.920 --> 1:20:14.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, all right, what about you? Uh, that's it. I'm done.

1:20:15.640 --> 1:20:18.360
<v Speaker 2>You're gonna find find figure out where David Hyde Pierce lives.

1:20:18.439 --> 1:20:22.200
<v Speaker 2>You know, have a nice letter. A letter.

1:20:28.680 --> 1:20:31.400
<v Speaker 1>Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1:20:31.720 --> 1:20:34.360
<v Speaker 1>For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

1:20:34.439 --> 1:20:38.360
<v Speaker 1>Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

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<v Speaker 1>Apple

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<v Speaker 3>Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.