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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everyone, Robert Evans here with Behind the Bastards, and

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Speaker 2: we've got some kind of sad news today. This is

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Speaker 2: going to hit members of the community pretty hard. But

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Speaker 2: forty eight years ago, on November tenth, nineteen seventy five,

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Speaker 2: the SS Edmund Fitzgerald went down in Lake Superior, killing

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Speaker 2: all twenty nine crew members on board. This is a

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Speaker 2: hard time of the year for everybody here at Behind

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Speaker 2: the Bastards, for all of you at home, and the

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Speaker 2: only thing that makes it easier is the knowledge that

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Speaker 2: both the Russian Federation and the Chinese government have recently

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Speaker 2: substantially increased the sizes of their nuclear stockpile, while the

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Speaker 2: United States is in the process of renovating its own

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Speaker 2: nuclear weapons. And my hope, I think all of our hope,

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Speaker 2: is that the leaders of our world can kind of

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Speaker 2: band together in this time of conflict and sadness to

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Speaker 2: finally expect into the entirety of their nuclear stockpiles, detonating

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Speaker 2: them over Lake Superior. You know that's my hope. I

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Speaker 2: know it's all of your hope back at home, and

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Speaker 2: I really think what can carry us through this is

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Speaker 2: some classic MAO era propaganda posters sewing, Joe Biden, Zijen

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Speaker 2: Ping and Vladimir Putin walking hand in hand, surrounded by

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Speaker 2: a crowd of little kids in Red Guard uniforms, heading

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Speaker 2: towards the light of a new atomic sun, while a

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Speaker 2: series of mushroom clouds detonate over Lake Superior's debts. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: welcome to the show, Jamie. That's so.

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Speaker 3: I mean, first of all, thank you, thank you for that.

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Speaker 3: I needed to hear it. I think we all the

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Speaker 3: image you described, and I hate that my mind went

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Speaker 3: here conjured the image of Paul Walker in the convertible

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Speaker 3: next to Brian Griffin. That's right, that's right, sort of

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Speaker 3: what I was picturing. The image you described has that

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Speaker 3: exact same and it just acts just throw someone in

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Speaker 3: the back seat, same exact ship.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's the dream, Jamie, that's the dream. God, what

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Speaker 2: a beautiful, beautiful dream.

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Speaker 3: I really think about being a member of Paul Walker's

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Speaker 3: family at the time that image was circular. Well, you're

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Speaker 3: just like.

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Speaker 2: I mean, from your jacuzzie filled with one hundred dollars bills. Yes,

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Speaker 2: even so, my.

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Speaker 3: Loved one, my dearly departed, being thrown in a convertible

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Speaker 3: next to a cartoon dog. Who to add insult to

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Speaker 3: injury would be resurrected within months, and like Brian the

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Speaker 3: Dog not to Okay, Brian the Dog was resurrecrected, I

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Speaker 3: think on the same timeline as Jesus Christ.

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Speaker 2: It was like, yeah, very similar characters.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, and we can all agree that, Billow, they're

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Speaker 3: both mar heads and they also and they both are

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Speaker 3: you know, like middling authors.

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Speaker 2: You could say, yeah, yeah, that's fair to say. So Jamie,

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Speaker 2: speaking of mediocre men, how do you feel have you

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Speaker 2: been keeping up with the story of Bastard's pot alumni,

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Speaker 2: Sam Bankman Freed?

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Speaker 3: Okay, so I have. I I know the broad strokes,

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Speaker 3: but as soon as the joyous news became started coming in,

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Speaker 3: I knew that we were going to be doing this.

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Speaker 3: And I don't know any of the particulars except for

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Speaker 3: tweets of yours that have been algorithm to the top

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Speaker 3: of my feed. I'm just there's no one I would

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Speaker 3: rather be with to let it just wash off for me.

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Speaker 1: Robert Family, Robert, can I ask you to please share

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Speaker 1: your working title for this episode because it's funny.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's Sam Bankman, not Freed, and in parentheses because

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Speaker 2: he is in jail.

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Speaker 3: I think it's fun, and I think I think that

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Speaker 3: that is far superior to Sam Bankman jailed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not creative at all. You got to spend

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Speaker 2: a lot of extra words I could create.

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Speaker 3: I'm not interested in other perspectives on that title. I

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Speaker 3: think that you got it exactly right.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you. Yeah. Yeah, brevity is some bullshit.

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Speaker 2: As a great author once said, so Jamie, speaking of

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Speaker 2: great authors, eighty percent of this episode is shitting on

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Speaker 2: Michael Lewis, the author of The Big Shirt. Oh yeah, no,

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Speaker 2: we're really This is gonna be a great one for

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Speaker 2: the Lewis heads in the audience. Wow, okay, okay, this

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Speaker 2: is gonna be Oh buckle up, yeah, now this is relevant.

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Speaker 2: The man just said buckle up. Oh yeah, strap the

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Speaker 2: fuck in and down.

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Speaker 3: Fuck ahead, we are.

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Speaker 2: We are starting with Michael Lewis, author of The Big Short.

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Speaker 3: James, We're okay. I feel like when I recently saw

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Speaker 3: a picture of my three year old niece going to

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Speaker 3: a Wiggles concert and I just caught myself smiling in

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Speaker 3: the same way.

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Speaker 2: This is great. Yeah, this is great. So on January fifth,

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, Sam Bankman freed send a message to

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Speaker 2: one of his many signal loops. For what it's worth,

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Speaker 2: February eight through sixteenth, Michael Lewis is going to be

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Speaker 2: in the Bahamas profiling us. Now, if you haven't been

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Speaker 2: following this story, and if Michael Lewis is not familiar

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Speaker 2: to you, then you probably do remember like the most

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Speaker 2: famous result of one of his novels, which is the

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Speaker 2: movie The Big Short. This was based on a book

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Speaker 2: Lewis wrote about a group of traders who had the

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Speaker 2: foresight to predict and profit off of the two thousand

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Speaker 2: and eight financial crash. They realized that, like the subprime

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Speaker 2: loan business was like a bunch of hooey, and they

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Speaker 2: shorted it right, made a bunch of money while everybody

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Speaker 2: else lost their jobs.

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Speaker 3: You love to see it.

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Speaker 2: You love to see it. His other best known work

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Speaker 2: is probably Moneyball, which is about a baseball team manager

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Speaker 2: who uses which called saber metrics, which, without getting into it,

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Speaker 2: is basically being Nate Silver but also actually running a

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Speaker 2: sports team. Right.

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Speaker 3: That is also that in twenty twenty I started doing

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Speaker 3: this bit on Cursed Zoom comedy shows called The Boyfriend

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Speaker 3: Criterion Collection, and it's just like Blu Rays that are

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Speaker 3: in your house against your living well, Yeah, mon Ball

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Speaker 3: is very much a part of the boyfriend Criterion collection.

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Speaker 3: It's right up there with Whiplash. It's like a disaster.

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Speaker 1: I must say, if you, if you did not date

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Speaker 1: the worst man you've ever dated in your entire life

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Speaker 1: in twenty seventeen that was obsessed with all things Michael Lewis,

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Speaker 1: then were you really in Los Angeles?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? No, that's that's true. The problematic By the way, if.

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Speaker 3: Your worst boyfriend couldn't read, really.

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Speaker 2: Think you're you're the median American and honestly don't even know.

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Speaker 3: Who I'm talking about, Like it's impossible to say that,

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Speaker 3: but I know.

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Speaker 2: The only non problematic piece of physical media that you

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Speaker 2: can have on you in your house as a boyfriend

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Speaker 2: is an original VHS tape of Trimmors. That's just the

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Speaker 2: way it works.

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Speaker 3: I I and I would fight with you if I didn't,

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Speaker 3: if I didn't feel the same way. I think that

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Speaker 3: that is very much as a good sign.

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Speaker 2: Uh huh, that's excellent, Thank you, thank you.

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Speaker 3: The more prominently displayed, the better.

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Speaker 2: To say that Michael Lewis is a famous writer or

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Speaker 2: famous journalist. Puts it pretty lightly. He's probably the best

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Speaker 2: known journalist in the country and almost certainly the wealthiest.

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Speaker 2: There's not a lot of competition for that, but like,

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Speaker 2: he's definitely in the running. He's what you'd call an

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Speaker 2: access journalist. Who he is somebody whose stories come from

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Speaker 2: his ability to get close to his subjects and just

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Speaker 2: kind of exist with them during a crucial period of

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Speaker 2: time as a fly on the wall. There's a number

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Speaker 2: of ways to do this. There are a couple of

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Speaker 2: like big Trump administration books written by journalists who basically

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Speaker 2: just got to sit around Trump and his White House

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Speaker 2: while things went insane. The route that Lewis takes is

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Speaker 2: to befriend the people that he's writing about. Right, He

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Speaker 2: is this guy and people who know him will say

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Speaker 2: he just kind of makes people comfortable around him. He

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Speaker 2: is a guy that you want to have at a party.

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Speaker 2: He's a he's pleasant company. Enough people have said this

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Speaker 2: that I assume it's true based on just like how

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Speaker 2: he does his stories. People he's good at putting folks

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Speaker 2: at ease and they don't mind him being around, and

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Speaker 2: that's how he gets a lot of his stories. Now,

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Speaker 2: as general rule, if you are in the position that

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Speaker 2: Sam bankman Freed and his friends who are in circa

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty two running a massive financial shell game, you

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Speaker 2: would be hesitant and welcome very well.

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Speaker 3: I think we can all agree based on kings talk

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Speaker 3: about a game of four D chess.

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Speaker 2: The last guy you might want hanging around your office

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Speaker 2: is a dude who could literally, like Michael Lewis could

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Speaker 2: literally in like the space of a phone call, get

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Speaker 2: articles greenlit in every newspaper in the country. Right. He

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Speaker 2: just is he has that kind of pull. He is

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Speaker 2: that reliable a seller for his stories, Like nobody would

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Speaker 2: not want to take a story that he had, so

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Speaker 2: you would want to be cautious. You would think you'd

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Speaker 2: want to be cautious about letting this guy into your house.

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Speaker 2: But there's a reason why they said yes when he

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Speaker 2: reached out to SBF, and it's that Michael Lewis's reputation

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Speaker 2: among people in the finance industry was not oh, he

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Speaker 2: wrote this book that's critical of us. Oh, he's this

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Speaker 2: guy who exposes the diret of the finance industry. It's

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Speaker 2: this is a guy who can make you into a celebrity.

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Speaker 2: And in early twenty twenty two, that was the entire

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Speaker 2: vision of everyone like connected business wise to Sam Bankman,

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Speaker 2: Freed was, we need to turn this guy into a

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Speaker 2: celebrity who's constantly everywhere to raise the profile of this exchange. Right,

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Speaker 2: They spent something like a billion dollars on a variety

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Speaker 2: of different corporate and celebrity endorsements. Of the nine billion

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Speaker 2: that was missing, about a billion went towards shit to

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Speaker 2: boost FTX and to boost Sam's profile.

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Speaker 3: Right, I'm sorry, where's that. You gotta spend money to

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Speaker 3: make money, I guess you because spent ten billion to

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Speaker 3: make nothing. To go to jail. You have to see

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Speaker 3: this has been ten billion dollars to go to jail.

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Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying, to go to to go to

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Speaker 2: Forever prison, Shamie. Let's be honest about this.

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Speaker 3: He's going to. I for every time I've seen Forever prison,

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Speaker 3: very often. For you, I hear it in the cadence

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Speaker 3: of the Forever Purge trailer. You're like, Oh, it's the

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Speaker 3: Forever prison.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that is where he's going. And that's you know again,

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Speaker 2: everyone is kind of cut ties. Everyone legitimate has cut

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Speaker 2: ties with not just Sam, but like Crypto in general.

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Speaker 2: In the wake of Sam's collapse, But there was about

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Speaker 2: a year and a half period where like every bank

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Speaker 2: was looking into it, every tech company was putting shit

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Speaker 2: on the blockchain. The last kind of holdout, and the

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Speaker 2: reason why Sam put so much money into this was politicians. Right.

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Speaker 2: There were a few who would cut but like most

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Speaker 2: people who were in politics would not even take donations

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Speaker 2: directly from crypto, right, you had to launder that shit.

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Speaker 2: And Sam was looking to buy himself a sizable chunk

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Speaker 2: of Congress so that he could make sure that regulations

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Speaker 2: on crypto favored his company specifically, which is why he

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Speaker 2: did stuff like you know, he spent tens of millions

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Speaker 2: of dollars getting Tom Brady and Giselle Bunchen to like

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Speaker 2: pretend to be his friends. He sat down next to

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Speaker 2: Bill Clinton on fucking stage in a very cringey interview.

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Speaker 2: He paid Larry Davis to make a Super Bowl lad

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Speaker 2: But all of that, the potential, all of that had

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Speaker 2: to legitimize him paled in comparison to having the big

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Speaker 2: short dude treat you like a financial genius. Right, If

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Speaker 2: Michael Lewis treats you like Michael Burry, who's one of

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Speaker 2: the characters from the Big short who became a big

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Speaker 2: name after Lewis wrote this book. If he's like, this

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Speaker 2: guy is that kind of financial genius, then everybody's going

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Speaker 2: to start taking your calls, even people who like have

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Speaker 2: been hiding from Crypto because they don't they're worried that

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Speaker 2: what happened would happen right, that you'd get ten million

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Speaker 2: in donations, they have to pay them back because it

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Speaker 2: turned out that it was a con man.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's there's a note of it that it

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Speaker 3: almost reminds me when like Errol Morris like profiled and

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Speaker 3: worked for Elizabeth Holmes. You're just like, it's that level

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Speaker 3: of profile versus l.

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Speaker 2: Yes, this turns you into somebody who's like who can

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Speaker 2: be taken seriously because that's what who Lewis is, right,

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Speaker 2: he is that big a deal. I'm not like puffing

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Speaker 2: him up. He doesn't need it right now.

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Speaker 3: He is people to care about Moneyball the most, the

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Speaker 3: most boring ass thing I've ever heard about my life.

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Speaker 2: Well, and that's the thing. He is one of these guys.

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Speaker 2: He's maybe the main character of this episode. I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: call him quite a bastard, but one of the things

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Speaker 2: you have to give him is. He is legitimately a

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Speaker 2: very good writer. There's no other way you get people

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Speaker 2: to give a shit about Moneyball. He's like, I read

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Speaker 2: his whole Sam Bankman Freed book. I think it's bullshit,

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Speaker 2: but I didn't. I didn't get bored at any point.

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Speaker 2: You know, is at a pace a piece of writing,

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Speaker 2: you know. So he decides to come knocking. Sam is

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Speaker 2: immediately on board. All of their PR people are on board.

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Speaker 2: Not everyone at FTX is on board. Carolin Edison, who

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Speaker 2: is his on again, off again girlfriend who testified against

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Speaker 2: him repeatedly. She is running Alameda, which is the company

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Speaker 2: that bankrupts everything that he is illegally funneling consumer deposits into.

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Speaker 2: She is basically like the and she does not like

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Speaker 2: the idea of having Michael Lewis around. Now. She can't

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Speaker 2: really confront Sam Bankman Freed when she has a bad idea.

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Speaker 2: Nobody can, so she just kind of hedges it and

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Speaker 2: says the signal chat makes sense. I feel like my

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Speaker 2: instincts are more towards under the radar, but I might

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Speaker 2: just be irrationally biased towards that in general. And then

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Speaker 2: like an emoji of a face sticking its tongue out,

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Speaker 2: and Sam replies, Sam, except exactly the opposite that, right, like.

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Speaker 3: You know you're down bad if you're asking Sam Bankreant

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Speaker 3: Freed to make sense. Yeah, it's challenging. Oh god, that's

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Speaker 3: such I mean, I don't know, I know we've talked

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Speaker 3: about her in the past, but that's like a what

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Speaker 3: a mess, what a nightmare.

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Speaker 2: She's in a rough situation. And he will talk a

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Speaker 2: lot about how he treats her in this. But Will

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Speaker 2: mccaskell is also in that signal chat, and Will is

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Speaker 2: basically the founder. He's not like literally the founder, but

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Speaker 2: he is the founder of what is most commonly talked

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Speaker 2: about as the effect of altruism movement, and definitely its figurehead. Right.

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Speaker 2: He is the big guy. He's this Oxford professor who

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Speaker 2: he pills Sam Bankman Freed on the idea, and his

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Speaker 2: response is kind of I think part of why this

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Speaker 2: winds up going down. He says, I think either approach

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Speaker 2: is reasonable, should just be a deliberate, coordinated plan. But

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Speaker 2: if a whole bunch of attention is going to be

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Speaker 2: on FTX, Sam and EA, whatever happens, then getting ahead

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Speaker 2: of the game and controlling the narrative is necessary, yep,

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Speaker 2: responded Sam, and they did it. Michael Lewis spends like

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Speaker 2: a year with this guy, like he spends a lot

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Speaker 2: of time around them. Everyone's very excited because what happened

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Speaker 2: last year is Sam's world collapses and he gets charged

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Speaker 2: with like seven felonies. And then right afterwards, Michael Lewis

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Speaker 2: is like, by the way, I've been basically living with

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Speaker 2: him for a year, and everyone's like, oh shit, this

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Speaker 2: could be pretty good because like this guy can write.

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Speaker 2: He's been front set, he's written about a financial collapse before.

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Speaker 2: He's got front seat tickets to this whole thing. And

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Speaker 2: then the book comes out, and unfortunately for Lewis, the

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Speaker 2: book comes out, he times the release right for when

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Speaker 2: the court case starts, so we get all of this

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Speaker 2: right alongside his book. We get all of these signal

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Speaker 2: texts and stuff that were not in his book book,

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Speaker 2: and kind of the overwhelming thing that you see when

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Speaker 2: you compare what comes out in the court case what

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Speaker 2: comes out in the testimony of as Friends to the

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Speaker 2: text of Lewis's book, is that like, oh, Michael got

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Speaker 2: kind of fucking conned by this dude, right, Oh yeah,

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Speaker 2: Like he fell for it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean it speaks to the level of

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Speaker 3: confidence one would have to have in their own reporting

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Speaker 3: to time it with yep the trial, because if you

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Speaker 3: had even a remote feeling that you have got you

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Speaker 3: had gotten it wrong, I would be like release it

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Speaker 3: a year after the trial, like bury it in the area.

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Speaker 2: I can see if you're if you're just some journalists

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Speaker 2: and this is your first book or you just don't

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Speaker 2: have you're not like a huge hit. So like you

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Speaker 2: are very Your publisher has a lot of power and

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Speaker 2: they're like, we want this to drop when the case does,

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Speaker 2: because that's when it'll sell best. I get that you

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Speaker 2: might not have the suction necessary to move it. Michael

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Speaker 2: Lewis can say we are putting this out this day

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Speaker 2: and like, suck my dick. I'm Michael Lewis. It'll make

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Speaker 2: you money, right, And he doesn't, which which suggests he

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Speaker 2: has the same kind of hubris that Sam Bankman Freed

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Speaker 2: did in a lot of ways. So to give you

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Speaker 2: an example of how emotionally involved Lewis is in this case,

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Speaker 2: here's a good write up on the court case by

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Speaker 2: a journalist who was there during the trial, which was

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Speaker 2: not filmed. Writing for Jacobin, and this is how they

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Speaker 2: describe the devastating cross examination of Bankman Freed, who again

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Speaker 2: chose to take the stand in his own defense despite

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Speaker 2: every expert saying absolutely never do this. Quote across the

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Speaker 2: aisle for me and the section reserve for friends and family.

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Speaker 2: I could see Sam's parents growing increasingly agitated, his mom

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Speaker 2: visibly shaking two rows behind them. I couldn't help but

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Speaker 2: notice author Michael Lewis leaning forward, arms draped over the

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Speaker 2: bench in front of him, with his head down between

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Speaker 2: his arms.

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Speaker 3: Nobody expects Michael Lewis in the court.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I you know, I do actually have I

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Speaker 2: don't think they're very good people, but I have sympathy

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Speaker 2: for Sam's parents. This is like a nightmare if like

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Speaker 2: to know that your kid is going to forever prison,

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Speaker 2: even if it's totally their faults.

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Speaker 3: My empathy only goes so far. But also, like, what

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Speaker 3: a scene, What a fucking scene.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely phenomenal. Yeah, terrific. Can't wait for Jonah Hill to

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Speaker 2: start as Sam Bankman Freed in the movie based on this.

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Speaker 3: No, I really don't want.

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Speaker 2: No, No, there's no one I want to see play

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Speaker 2: him in a movie. Just do him. Like Maris and Frasier,

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Speaker 2: have him always be off.

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Speaker 3: That would be oh, I love yeah, like the Parents

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Speaker 3: and Charlie Brown, Heather Sinclaire of Degrassi.

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Speaker 2: And you know what, cast David Hyde Pierce as Michael Lewis.

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Speaker 2: Then we got a movie. Then we got a fucking film.

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Speaker 3: Then we got I mean, if if this whole ordeal

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Speaker 3: results in David Hype Pierce winning an oscar a.

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Speaker 2: Bad absolutely, absolutely.

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Speaker 3: There's way is good.

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Speaker 2: There's no way it's good. Yes, you know.

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Speaker 3: And and it's possible that Adam McKay in an effort

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Speaker 3: to course directing, endorse on sure Adam McKay is, like,

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Speaker 3: he absolutely could, and he's and he would need to

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Speaker 3: course correct on the Michael Lewis in the first place

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Speaker 3: for having directed The Big Short. It's a great move

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Speaker 3: for everyone. We could make everyone's agent in the situation.

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Speaker 2: You're gonna be rich, Jamie, I'm gonna be fucking rich. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: In in interviews he gave after the book came out

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Speaker 2: and the trial started, Lewis framed his book Going Infinite

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Speaker 2: about Sam Bankmanfried as a letter to the jury, which

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Speaker 2: is like kind of nonsense, because obviously the jury is

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Speaker 2: never allowed to read a book about the guy that

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Speaker 2: they're going on a trial about, and the judge specifically

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Speaker 2: instructed them not to. There's an interview with sixty minutes,

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Speaker 2: which is really something we will hear some clips from

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Speaker 2: it later. But in that interview, Lewis explained, I mean,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be this trial, and the lawyers are

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Speaker 2: going to tell two stories, and so there's a story

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Speaker 2: war going on in the courtroom, and I think every

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Speaker 2: war and I think neither one of those stories is

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Speaker 2: as good as the one I have. And like I

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Speaker 2: on one hand, yes, of course you're right, because you're

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Speaker 2: a better writer than any lawyer is going to be.

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Speaker 2: But on the other hand, this isn't a story. It's

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Speaker 2: just a question of what happened, Michael Lewis, and what

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00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,280
Speaker 2: happened is massive fraud, and you don't put that in

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Speaker 2: your book.

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Speaker 3: That's so I mean to hear. I mean, I guess

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Speaker 3: I can be of many minds about characterizing it as

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Speaker 3: a story war, because that is like just how history

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Speaker 3: is written, and it's kind of almost refreshing to hear

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Speaker 3: someone refer it to as like, well, whoever could write

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Speaker 3: the better story? That's will We'll end up having the

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Speaker 3: historical precedent, but interesting that it would be said out

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Speaker 3: loud in that way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and again I want to reiterate, while Michael is

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Speaker 2: the main character here, he's not like he's he's not

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Speaker 2: a bastard. He's not someone who's like impact on the

390
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Speaker 2: world has been monstrous as far as I've ever heard,

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Speaker 2: He's a reasonably nice person. We'll definitely get him being

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Speaker 2: mean in a couple of points here, but it's nothing

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Speaker 2: that I would like call someone that, like one of

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Speaker 2: history's greatest monster over But this is Bankman free. It

395
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Speaker 2: is a bastard. And so I think talking about the

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Speaker 2: way in which he kind of has Lewis wrapped around

397
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Speaker 2: his finger, in the degree to which Lewis tortures his

398
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Speaker 2: own logic and prose in order to ignore that is

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Speaker 2: just fascinating. So with that in mind, let's start with

400
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Speaker 2: a little bit more of Michael's backstory, because that is

401
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,719
Speaker 2: important to understand why he falls for this. Michael Monroe

402
00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:42,680
Speaker 2: Lewis was born on October fifteenth, nineteen sixty in New Orleans. Now,

403
00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,320
Speaker 2: from the beginning, his life was about as far from

404
00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,600
Speaker 2: working class as you get, and to his credit, Lewis

405
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:50,440
Speaker 2: does not deny this whenever he's.

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Speaker 3: Asked to the only thing you can't do, I guess, yeah, you've.

407
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Speaker 2: Got to be open about it. Here's him talking to

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Speaker 2: the Guardian Lewis's family stat at the very top of

409
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Speaker 2: the Wasp Aristocra in New Orleans. I was so inside,

410
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:04,680
Speaker 2: he told me. I was literally trained how to sit

411
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Speaker 2: on a throne when I was fifteen years old, because

412
00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:09,439
Speaker 2: it was crowned the king of the Carnival Ball, an

413
00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:12,720
Speaker 2: organization that didn't allow black people, didn't allow Jews. I

414
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,600
Speaker 2: would go from baseball practice to sceptor waving lessons. I

415
00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,560
Speaker 2: was born into that world. Being an insider in New

416
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Speaker 2: Orleans made him feel like an outsider everywhere else, and

417
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Speaker 2: not always to his disadvantage. And first off, wow, that's

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Speaker 2: quite a backstory.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, King, I do you, King?

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Speaker 2: I do think I want to point out something here,

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00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:36,760
Speaker 2: which is where I don't think he's obvious skating, but

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Speaker 2: I think he's missing something about his own what his

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00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:42,320
Speaker 2: background has done for him. Because I don't I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to question him when he says it made him

425
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Speaker 2: feel like an outsider. But I think it's very clear

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00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:49,520
Speaker 2: that this is a guy whose work is defined by

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00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,840
Speaker 2: his ability to make himself into an insider. And I

428
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:54,879
Speaker 2: think that's a big part of why he's able to

429
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Speaker 2: do that, is he grows up in the middle of

430
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Speaker 2: wealth and power, right where it's the air that he breathed.

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Speaker 2: And you don't notice this if like you grow up

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Speaker 2: working class and don't know any super rich people. But

433
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Speaker 2: when you meet some people who were born crazy rich,

434
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,439
Speaker 2: you note that, like a lot of them have this

435
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:16,440
Speaker 2: this way of making of making themselves feel like they

436
00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:19,320
Speaker 2: belong anywhere, right, It's why they can get away with

437
00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:21,400
Speaker 2: so much, Like even if they're totally out of their depth.

438
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:23,600
Speaker 2: There's this kind of expectation you get when you grow

439
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:25,960
Speaker 2: up hyper rich that the world is going to show

440
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,360
Speaker 2: you a degree of deference when you know people who

441
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,520
Speaker 2: have family fortunes behind them, you know what I'm talking about, right,

442
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:33,440
Speaker 2: Like it's the reason they are never going to get

443
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:35,960
Speaker 2: like carded to see if they're a member of a

444
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,720
Speaker 2: place that's members only, right, because they they have that

445
00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,280
Speaker 2: way about them. And I think that's part of how as.

446
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,199
Speaker 3: Receptible thing well, And I do think that there is

447
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:47,520
Speaker 3: I mean, and it sounds like what you're getting at

448
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:51,080
Speaker 3: is like there is if you can get someone who

449
00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 3: grew up in those circumstances on the side of fucking decency.

450
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:56,880
Speaker 2: There is a huge.

451
00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:58,920
Speaker 3: Value to having someone like that who knows how to

452
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,399
Speaker 3: navigate those places on your side. But if they're but

453
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,280
Speaker 3: but also, you know, to an extent and a liability

454
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 3: because you never know, you know. I'm curious what endears

455
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:11,760
Speaker 3: him to Sam.

456
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll get to that. So he goes to Princeton

457
00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 2: University and he graduates kum laude, which which means pretty

458
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:22,320
Speaker 2: good grades in nineteen eighty two. His senior thesis is

459
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:26,120
Speaker 2: on Donatello, a prominent ninja turtle. And when he's in college,

460
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,959
Speaker 2: he's a member of Princeton's Ivy Club, which is the

461
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,760
Speaker 2: oldest eating club in the school. Now, if you're not

462
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:33,880
Speaker 2: a blue blood, you probably are like, what the fuck

463
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,080
Speaker 2: is an eating club? These are private dining halls that

464
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,879
Speaker 2: are also kind of social clubs where upper classmen go

465
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 2: to get nicer food. There's like nine of them, I

466
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,399
Speaker 2: think on campus, the Ivy Club at Princeton, or like

467
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:50,240
Speaker 2: everywhere at Princeton. There's other fancy boys schools have these.

468
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:55,080
Speaker 1: Robert, this is full count the clue.

469
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 3: I was like eating club, the like eating club to

470
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 3: me is like drive through Taco bell one am starving. Yeah, wow,

471
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,359
Speaker 3: eating club eating.

472
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,119
Speaker 2: What they Sophie, you said, this is full cunt. But

473
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:12,680
Speaker 2: it did not admit women until nineteen ninety one.

474
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 1: The adacy to not let a woman go into hut.

475
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:22,680
Speaker 3: Something that cunty. It just doesn't make sense.

476
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,960
Speaker 2: And it's it's also very funny that like or not funny,

477
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,680
Speaker 2: but it's noteworthy. In this interview, it talks about how

478
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 2: he was at the Ivy Club. Right when he talks about,

479
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,359
Speaker 2: you know, his upbringing. He's like, yeah, this like this

480
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,679
Speaker 2: contest I was in. You couldn't You couldn't be in

481
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 2: this club if you were like black or Jewish. He

482
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 2: doesn't mentioned that the Ivy Club doesn't admit women. I

483
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:46,199
Speaker 2: think that is maybe interesting. It's also worth noting that

484
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,639
Speaker 2: the Ivy Club. F Scott Fitzgerald writes about the Ivy

485
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:53,720
Speaker 2: Club and calls it f Scott Fitzgerald calls it detached

486
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 2: and breathlessly aristocratic, and Scott Fitzgerald says that about your

487
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 2: blue Blood Club, like, my god.

488
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 3: I love that. Wow. What a treat, what a treat?

489
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 3: If yeah, if f Scott Fitzgerald is the one experiencing

490
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 3: like moral clarity about about your weird group. That's challenging. Now.

491
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,399
Speaker 2: While Lewis had a passion for art history, he had

492
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 2: a bigger passion in life and it's stacking motherfucking paper.

493
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,440
Speaker 2: So he goes to the London School of Economics next

494
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 2: and eventually joins the bond desk at Salomon Brothers. He's

495
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 2: in like the London branch of the Salomon Brothers. Uh no, no, no, no,

496
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 2: he's just making Dalla dollar bills, y'all.

497
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 1: Robert Dalla dollar Bill's time is happening now for us

498
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 1: as well.

499
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, speaking of Dalla dollar bills, buy some of

500
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 2: these products and we think about things.

501
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:58,879
Speaker 1: I have a request for the listeners, which is not

502
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,119
Speaker 1: something that I often. I don't I don't ask, I

503
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 1: don't ask anything of our listeners, just that just that

504
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 1: they're happy. But if somebody could please make a dating

505
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 1: profile for Michael Lewis as an art graphic, I just it,

506
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 1: just please for me?

507
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,360
Speaker 2: Oh man, Okay, that's that's good. You've got You've got

508
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 2: two different requests this week, listeners. One is that propaganda

509
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 2: poster and the other is Michael Lewis dating profile. So Lewis.

510
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 2: Lewis is, you know, an investment banker for just a

511
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 2: few years. Actually you know who? He reminds me of,

512
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 2: Oh okay, just.

513
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 3: You know, hoping your toes in it. Then that kind

514
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 3: of doesn't It's like the just the tip of financial crime.

515
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,919
Speaker 2: He's in there at eighty seven, the market crashes and

516
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 2: he makes a pivot away from like doing that as

517
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 2: a job, and he writes a book called Liar's Poker

518
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 2: about the investment you know, Bang the stockbroker. That like

519
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,879
Speaker 2: that kind of life that makes a shitload of money, right,

520
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 2: this is we'll talk about it in a second, but

521
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,400
Speaker 2: like I want to he minds me in this trajectory.

522
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 2: Do you know anything about Michael Crichton?

523
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 3: Uh? Oh, I mean I yeah, Peaks and Valleys. I

524
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 3: had no attachment to him, but I know many do.

525
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,679
Speaker 3: And like, yeah, the back half of Michael Crichton pretty

526
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 3: fucking brutal.

527
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm pretty pretty brutal. I'm not talking about like

528
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 2: his actual career as a writer as much as Crichton

529
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,200
Speaker 2: goes to Harvard Medical School and becomes a doctor. Most

530
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 2: people are I don't think I actually know this, but

531
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,120
Speaker 2: like he was an actual MD. But he doesn't really

532
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 2: do the job, Like he gets his MD and then

533
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 2: he quits to write books like some of which have

534
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:38,919
Speaker 2: a medical like he's the creator of ER and he

535
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 2: gets criticized by doctors who are like, oh you just

536
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 2: creator of ER. Yeah, Michael Crichton created a r Yes.

537
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 3: Oh okay, sorry, I thought we were talking about Michael Lewis. Yes,

538
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 3: I knew Michael.

539
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:50,639
Speaker 2: They have a similar They have a similar kind of

540
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:52,959
Speaker 2: trajectory where they go to school for this thing they

541
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:54,919
Speaker 2: do like a teeny amount of it, just dip their

542
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 2: toes in and then they get famous writing these books

543
00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 2: that are inspired by it. Right. I just find that interesting.

544
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 2: So to give you a further idea of Lewis's family background,

545
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 2: Liar's Poker, which is semi autobiographical, revolves around a scene

546
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 2: where Michael Lewis is invited to a banquet hosted by

547
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,639
Speaker 2: the Queen Mother while he's working in London. He gets

548
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,920
Speaker 2: a seat there because of his cousin, Baroness Linda von Stauffenberg,

549
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 2: and she seats next to the manager of Salomon Brothers,

550
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 2: which is how he gets his job. Word salad crabs

551
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,159
Speaker 2: don't have bluer blood than this man like that is

552
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:33,879
Speaker 2: that is the bluest you fucking get.

553
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,119
Speaker 3: If your cousin's a baroness and you're in your like

554
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 3: late twenties, y, what if you know.

555
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 2: A baroness, you are like, that's okay. Yeah. Yeah. So

556
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 2: Lewis's depiction of Wall Street guys from Liar's Poker on

557
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 2: because he writes a few books about Wall Street types

558
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 2: because he knows them, right, It's generally noted as not

559
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 2: being flattering, but I think that's by people who like

560
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 2: a very naive view of what's unflattering because his Wall

561
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 2: Street guys they curse a lot. They use phrases like

562
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 2: big swing and dick. They're like they're like kind of gross,

563
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 2: but in a way that's glamorous, right, Like I.

564
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 3: Mean I feel like it's like the Glengarry Glenn Ross,

565
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 3: Yes exactly, yeah, talking shit, yeah yeah yeah.

566
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 2: It like it is a kind of thing where you

567
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 2: could say he's not glamorizing it, but he's absolutely making

568
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 2: it look a way that makes more young men greeting

569
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 2: men when to become stock traders. And to extend the

570
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 2: Michael Crichton comparison, it is Liar's Poker is generally agreed

571
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 2: to have had a similar impact on its industry to

572
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 2: how Jurassic Park influenced paleontology by like bringing a shitload

573
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 2: of people in.

574
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 3: Wow, that's really interesting to me because I like, I

575
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 3: don't know. I have not read Liar's Poker. To be honest,

576
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 3: I have not read any of his books. I have

577
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 3: seen some of the adaptations in movies of his books.

578
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 3: But but yeah, in terms of like, anytime someone writes

579
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 3: something about Wall Street, like you have to be so

580
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 3: fucking careful, and also even if you are extremely fucking careful,

581
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 3: it will still bring in the wrong people who refuse

582
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 3: to see the point, like they're like Wolf of Wall

583
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 3: Street is one of my favorite movies, hands down. At

584
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 3: it's great and it is exact time. Yeah, but it's

585
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 3: still like brought people in on the wrong ye, Like

586
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 3: fuck it, because brain dead people are going to be

587
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 3: brain dead people.

588
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 2: This is we're going in a more serious direction. But

589
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 2: if you've read Slaughterhouse five, in the opening of it,

590
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 2: Vonnegut talks about how when he said I'm going to

591
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 2: write my my war book, his wife was like, don't

592
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 2: do it. There's no way to do it without making

593
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 2: it look cool, Like no one has ever managed to

594
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 2: not do it in a way that makes young men

595
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:42,480
Speaker 2: think it's cool. And she was right, like, for the record, yeah,

596
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 2: I mean one of the problems with even anti war

597
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 2: war fiction is it always makes it look cool because

598
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 2: it's it's cool, right, That doesn't mean it's good. It's like,

599
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 2: Joe Cammel is cool, he still killed one hundred million people.

600
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:59,479
Speaker 3: Joe Cammell gave my father lung cancer, and I stand

601
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 3: by that. And to conjure a similar image Joe Cammell,

602
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 3: there's an image that I saw when I worked in

603
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 3: the Playboy archives of Joe Cammel and illustrated gorgeous like

604
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 3: painting essentially of Joe Camil in convertible with smoking hot

605
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 3: human women. Hell yeah, yeah, big old titties, And you're like, no,

606
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 3: wonder this advertisement killed people. This advertisement kill people being

607
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 3: like this, you could be this ugly ass camel with

608
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 3: women with huge naturals, like just like.

609
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 2: You can add up all the German generals on the

610
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 2: Eastern Front and they didn't kill as many people as

611
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 2: that act.

612
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 3: Truly like, and it's a beautiful piece of artwork, but like,

613
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 3: let's be fucking honest.

614
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, so today Lewis merely acknowledges that the psychos he

615
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 2: wrote about in Liar's Poker were more fun on the

616
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 2: page than they were in person. This can be if

617
00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 2: this is your first book and you write it in

618
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty two and you really later, oh, this actually

619
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 2: might have made the problem worse. That's not a thing

620
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 2: you have any moral culpability for. That's just like writing

621
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 2: a thing with good intentions and it turns out badly.

622
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 2: But this does become a problem, and one that we

623
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 2: can critique is partly a moral problem when it becomes

624
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 2: part of a pattern, and it is a pattern with

625
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 2: Michael Lewis. The Big Short is obviously not a Wall

626
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 2: Street puff piece, but it became beloved by exactly the

627
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 2: same people you might assume it was trying to criticize.

628
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 2: And that Guardian article I've quoted from, there's a story

629
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 2: about Michael Lewis attends this big New York party and

630
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 2: he's like warned ahead of time that it's going to

631
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,719
Speaker 2: be full of bankers and other finance guys, and he's like, oh,

632
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 2: I don't know if they're going to like me, because

633
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 2: he had just not only was The Big Short out,

634
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 2: but he just published an article at a major publication

635
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 2: attacking Wall Street big wigs as being greedy idiots, like

636
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 2: saying it in very unsparing terms. And one of Lewis's

637
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 2: friends later said, quote, but all these former heads of

638
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 2: investment banks, all these current bankers, they ran not walked

639
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 2: to the office just to meet him. One hedge fun

640
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 2: manager walked in with fifteen copies of Lewis's books, Michael

641
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 2: signed them all. And again, if you are a journalist,

642
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 2: that's a bad side, Like.

643
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, what is your take on that? I mean, like,

644
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 3: what is the game of chess that I'm not seeing here?

645
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's just that he makes he

646
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 2: makes this look sexy, and it's if he writes about you.

647
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 2: Part of a big part of this is that while

648
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 2: he's maybe negative about greed within the overall finance industry,

649
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 2: he cannot write about a person without making them look

650
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 2: cool because he has to like them to write about them. Right,

651
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 2: All these guys in the big short you could say,

652
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 2: profited off of a lot of misery. Now they didn't

653
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 2: cause it. He didn't start this subprime loan thing. But

654
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 2: they profited off of a lot of misery. And that's

655
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 2: at least kind of grimy. But Lewis likes these guys

656
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 2: and he turns them into celebrities because of how good

657
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 2: he is at writing about them and making you see

658
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 2: what's likable in them. Right. And so at this point

659
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 2: he because of how often this has happened, is he

660
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 2: is aware that his books are pr for their subjects.

661
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 2: He has a habit now of connecting people he writes

662
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 2: about in his books to his PR manager so that

663
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 2: they can set up speaking tours for them, right, Because

664
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,320
Speaker 2: he knows if I put you in a book, that's

665
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:18,479
Speaker 2: going to be a big business for you, you're going

666
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 2: to be in demand. Yeah, And this is part as

667
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 2: a result of him he doesn't he can't really be

668
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 2: critical about the individuals, right, And this is this is

669
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:31,360
Speaker 2: another quote from that Guardian article. The obverse of Lewis's

670
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 2: approach is that he doesn't write about people he can't befriend,

671
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 2: or about stories that might cost him relationships. Among the

672
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 2: few projects he has abandoned is a biography of George Soros,

673
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:42,799
Speaker 2: who was so unhappy with Lewis's portrayal of him as

674
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 2: a financier rather than an intellectual in a magazine profile

675
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 2: that he refused to cooperate. Another is a book about

676
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 2: New Orleans, which would have demanded a level of honesty

677
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 2: about the city's society and about his family's place in

678
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 2: it that might have hurt his parents. He said, I

679
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,760
Speaker 2: adore my parents. I couldn't write that part while they're alive.

680
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 2: And and you know, again, none of this is like unforgivable.

681
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 2: But if you're admitting that as a journalist, what aren't

682
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 2: you able to admit? And I think in this case,

683
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:09,919
Speaker 2: it's that he is not able to look at Sam

684
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 2: Bankman freed honestly because he found himself taken in by

685
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 2: the kid stick.

686
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 3: Well, that's what I feel like is one of the

687
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 3: complicating factors of And I don't say this in a

688
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 3: way to seem like it's like an unsolvable puzzle, but it's,

689
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 3: like Michael Lewis writes, it seems like, you know, largely accurate,

690
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:36,919
Speaker 3: you know, pieces of journalism. We'll talk about that, well, okay, yeah,

691
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 3: so far right as someone who's never read his work.

692
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,879
Speaker 3: But they're also inherently commercial, because I feel like there's

693
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 3: a journalistic value to explaining why someone is appealing, but

694
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,439
Speaker 3: there's also an even more commercial value to explaining why

695
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 3: someone is appealing because that makes it, you know, that

696
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,399
Speaker 3: sells books, that sells movie tales, that sells all this shit.

697
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I think it's also part of why

698
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,319
Speaker 2: his stuff is successful in a commercial sense. Is that

699
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 2: is this other fact that like it's always kind of uplifting.

700
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 2: Right again, the big short the whole collapse of the

701
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 2: financial industry is dark, but stuff goes well for these

702
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 2: characters that you've come to light, right. And Lewis himself

703
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 2: is kind of admitted he can't really end on a

704
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:22,759
Speaker 2: not upbeat note. He has a lot of trouble with it.

705
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 2: He said, quote, once you identify yourself as happy, you're

706
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 2: always looking for happiness, and when things come along to

707
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:30,759
Speaker 2: great on that happiness, you find ways to deflect them.

708
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,319
Speaker 2: You can force the narrative. And I think what he

709
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 2: doesn't say there, but what is explains his Sam Bankman

710
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 2: Freed book, is that once you get in the habit

711
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 2: of writing about like these geniuses who are hidden in

712
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:44,359
Speaker 2: the middle of systems, right and see more than everybody else.

713
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,919
Speaker 2: Once you start doing that, you see anybody you start

714
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 2: focusing on as that kind of genius, even when they're not.

715
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:53,319
Speaker 2: And that's what's happened with Michael here?

716
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:58,360
Speaker 3: So yeah, mess, mess, And it's like, you know, ultimately,

717
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 3: nine times out of ten the person wearing like fucking

718
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 3: X ray glasses is wearing a pair of fucking Imax

719
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 3: glasses to go see Oppenheimer.

720
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 2: Like, it's just embarrassing, exactly, It's just embarrassing. And yeah, yeah,

721
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 2: So I think the best example of this before we

722
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 2: get into Sam Bankman freed prior in Lewis's history, is

723
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 2: a book called The blind Side, which was published in

724
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 2: two thousand and six. Now, The blind Side, like a

725
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 2: lot of Swiss stories, there's a macro in a micro narrative.

726
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 2: The macro narrative is he's talking about the grow, the

727
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 2: explosive growth in the importance of the left tackle in football.

728
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 2: This is an offensive lineman whose job is basically to

729
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:36,280
Speaker 2: make sure the quarterback doesn't get a maimed. The micro story,

730
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:39,320
Speaker 2: which contains the emotional heart of the book and is

731
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,320
Speaker 2: the core of the narrative, is the tale of a

732
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 2: guy named Michael Oher who was He was placed in

733
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 2: foster care at age seven because his mother suffered from addiction.

734
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:50,759
Speaker 2: His dad was generally in prison. His dad dies while

735
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 2: he's I think in high school or was dealt a

736
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 2: pretty tough hand in life. But he's also six foot

737
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 2: six and very fast, right, so he is someone who

738
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 2: will like shows an aptitude for football. As a result

739
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,719
Speaker 2: of this, he's kind of coaxed through getting into a

740
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,399
Speaker 2: private school and he gets he gets literally adopted by

741
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,760
Speaker 2: this rich white family, oh as a black man, black

742
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 2: child at this time, and they make it their business

743
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 2: to coach him and coax him in through getting through

744
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 2: the academics so that he can be in the NCAA

745
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:23,880
Speaker 2: and college so that he can get an NFL contract.

746
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 3: Right, So I'll be perfectly honest. I before we started,

747
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 3: before you told me that Michael Lewis was a main character,

748
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:34,760
Speaker 3: I did not know that he wrote The blind Side.

749
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 2: Oh yes he did, because this comes becomes a movie

750
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 2: that's huge, right also, and.

751
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:44,360
Speaker 3: I am very well acquainted with the the ensuing nasty,

752
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 3: fucking cultural narrative associated with the movie. But I didn't

753
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:49,760
Speaker 3: realize that it was a book. I knew Liar's poker

754
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 3: moneyball in the Big Short.

755
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:54,359
Speaker 1: Holy Robert, Robert, I just want a fact teck real quick.

756
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 1: He wasn't adopted by them.

757
00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 2: Not We're getting to that Okay, that was the narrow,

758
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 2: that was the nar in the blind Side, right right,

759
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,720
Speaker 2: that they have basically adopted this guy. Yes, you are correct, Sophie,

760
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 2: but I'm building to that. Okay.

761
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:11,839
Speaker 3: So okayah, okay, that's just like I don't I don't

762
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,280
Speaker 3: know why I didn't know that, and also like who

763
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:16,840
Speaker 3: didn't want me to know that? Michael Lewis Yeah, I

764
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 3: mean Blindside a book that is famously bullsh Yeah.

765
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 2: So this family adopts or and they effectively adopt him,

766
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 2: is I think generally how it's framed. And they help

767
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:29,839
Speaker 2: him get through high school, get into a college, and

768
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,879
Speaker 2: kind of like help usher him into this NFL career

769
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:35,360
Speaker 2: where he makes a significant amount of money obviously, And

770
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,839
Speaker 2: I'm a quote from the La Times here. The administration

771
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 2: at his high school accepts him although he can barely read.

772
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,399
Speaker 2: He secures a full time tutor. When his grade point

773
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 2: average still proves too low for the NCAA. His adoptive father,

774
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 2: a canny former college basketball standout named Sean Touhey, manages

775
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 2: to find a crucial loophole he has over tested to

776
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 2: prove that he's learning disabled, then has him take numerous

777
00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 2: easy online courses Lewis treats these measures genius. We are

778
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:02,719
Speaker 2: meant to cheer the fact that Ore has gained the

779
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,799
Speaker 2: educational process. And this is a tech. This is from

780
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:09,359
Speaker 2: the book. Leanne, who's the wife of Sean, was now

781
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:11,840
Speaker 2: making it her personal responsibility to introduce him to the

782
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 2: most basic facts of life, the sort of thing any

783
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 2: normal person would have learned by osmosis. Every day, I

784
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 2: try to make sure he knows something he doesn't know,

785
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:21,760
Speaker 2: she said. If you ask him, where should I shop

786
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 2: for a girl to a pressure, He'll tell you Tiffany's

787
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 2: if I go, I'll go through the whole golf game.

788
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 2: He can tell you what six under is, and what's

789
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 2: a birding and what's par I love that those are

790
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:32,760
Speaker 2: her two examples of basic knowledge.

791
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:36,880
Speaker 3: This is Sandra Bullocks Oscar talking. Yes, is Sandra Bullocks

792
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:38,759
Speaker 3: Oscar flat? This nasty little mound.

793
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 2: Two things every boy needs to know? Where to buy

794
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 2: jewelry and how to golf works. Really says a lot

795
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 2: about her socioeconomic status, right, not like here's how you

796
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:54,720
Speaker 2: pay your taxes, not like you know literally anything else,

797
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 2: like here's how you cook eggs, But no fucking fucking

798
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:01,279
Speaker 2: golf and Tiffany's well yeah, and.

799
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:04,320
Speaker 3: Also, like I mean to state the obvious, like conflating

800
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 3: that with like this is what normal people, This is

801
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:10,359
Speaker 3: normal the doctoral thesis in the ways that that is.

802
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 2: Okay, great shit. Yeah, So we can all see the

803
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:17,440
Speaker 2: potential abusive issue with a wealthy white family adopting a

804
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 2: teenaged black boy to coach him into launching a pro

805
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 2: football career. Right, just if you think about all of

806
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:24,520
Speaker 2: the head injuries and shit involved, there's a lot this

807
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 2: problematic here. Lewis does quote Lane at one point as saying,

808
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 2: with me and Sean, I can see him thinking if

809
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 2: they found me lying in a gutter and I was

810
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 2: going to be flipping burgers at McDonald's, would they really

811
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 2: have had an interest at me? But the book is

812
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 2: ultimately positive and uplifting. We're left thinking how nice it

813
00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 2: is that these people help this kid out. The la

814
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 2: Times note that Lewis seems to be like amused at

815
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,319
Speaker 2: these rich people cheating the system to usher this kid

816
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:52,800
Speaker 2: into a dangerous job without like educating him. So the

817
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 2: nice parts of the story ended earlier this year when

818
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 2: a now retired or filed a lawsuit in a Tennessee

819
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 2: court alleging that the two He's never adopted him and

820
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 2: instead created a conservaship two He's, I don't care, fuck him,

821
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 2: and instead created a conservatorship and used it to take

822
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 2: his money. Right, the Twohees or whatever the fuck deny

823
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:12,440
Speaker 2: doing this.

824
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 3: They again, Yeah, I think it's it's actually for the pepes,

825
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 3: I don't care.

826
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 2: Dick bags deny this, And again I'm not being a

827
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 2: non biased journalist here, but.

828
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 3: Fuck you know, referend it's actually dickman's, dick Mans.

829
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:32,720
Speaker 2: The Dickmans. They call his claims hateful and absurd. Michael

830
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 2: Lewis has defended the Twohees by saying that they only

831
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 2: earned a few hundred thousand dollars off of The blind Side,

832
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 2: the book and the movie that was made off of it.

833
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:43,360
Speaker 2: He's like, they didn't make millions, then they made a

834
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 2: few hundred grand. Now Lewis also does and I'll give

835
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 2: him this. He also admits, right after saying that that

836
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 2: the two hees biological daughter is married to the son

837
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 2: of the main investor in the film, which might suggest

838
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:58,920
Speaker 2: that the family made a lot more money off of it. Right, Oh,

839
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 2: that might because The Blindside makes half a billion dollars

840
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 2: and a thirty five million dollar budget.

841
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:09,760
Speaker 3: In his own way, Michael Lewis in this.

842
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 2: Kind of Michael Lewis is super rich and always really

843
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 2: there's been buried.

844
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 1: There's there's so many articles about like it is the

845
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:20,959
Speaker 1: Shady Ship.

846
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:23,920
Speaker 3: That's the first time I'm hearing about the daughter marriage

847
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:25,839
Speaker 3: because I read a fair amount.

848
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:30,879
Speaker 2: About that fun stuff. So in his own twenty eleven book,

849
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 2: oh Like expresses issues with the movie based off of

850
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:37,320
Speaker 2: Lewis's book. Primarily, there's this part where like the twees

851
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:39,279
Speaker 2: are teaching him how to play football and he's like,

852
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 2: I knew football before I met them. I'm a teenager

853
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 2: in America, Like, like, what are you fucking talking about?

854
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 2: There are other problematic moments in the book, uh, and

855
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 2: this is from The Guardian Again. Lewis calls Oer big

856
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:55,280
Speaker 2: mic throughout it, despite the fact that Oher is open

857
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 2: about hating that nickname. He also tells this guy's story

858
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:01,239
Speaker 2: almost exclusively through the words of other people talking about him,

859
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 2: even though he had access to Oor. Lewis justifies this

860
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 2: by saying that or was not a strong voice on

861
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:10,800
Speaker 2: his life. Yeah, this guy's not good at talking about himself.

862
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna listen to everyone else about him. I'm out.

863
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 2: I think what's really going on here is that poor

864
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 2: is a black kid from a desperate poverty background, right,

865
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 2: and Lewis cannot identify or get inside of his head

866
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:29,880
Speaker 2: because that is nothing even that even resembles the Michael

867
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 2: Lewis story.

868
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 3: It feels like a very privileged dark take. Yes, Like, well,

869
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:38,399
Speaker 3: who do I consider to be a credible voice? Can

870
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 3: I get twenty white people who barely know this guy.

871
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 2: Who just met this kid to profit off him.

872
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 3: To speak to him better than he can speak to

873
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 3: his own life, Because that's who I trust is white people.

874
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 3: That yeah, Oh, that's so fucking gross.

875
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 2: He doesn't try to get inside o'er his head, and

876
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:57,240
Speaker 2: he just focuses most of the narrative on the twoees,

877
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 2: who who Lewis understands this is the final shoe. He

878
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 2: understands them for a very good reason. And I'm going

879
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:05,560
Speaker 2: to quote from the La Times here. As I tore

880
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 2: through the book, I kept wondering how Lewis got such

881
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:10,839
Speaker 2: remarkable access to the ties, and I also wondered why

882
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:13,359
Speaker 2: does he take such an uncritical view of their role.

883
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:16,279
Speaker 2: The author's note at the end provides the obvious explanation,

884
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 2: stating that Lewis is a friend of Sean Tooey's and

885
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:21,319
Speaker 2: that they had been longtime classmates at the same New

886
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 2: Orleans school.

887
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:27,880
Speaker 3: No, how is it even ethical to take this fucking

888
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:30,240
Speaker 3: story on if you have.

889
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 2: There's only one kind of ethics that I care about, Jamie,

890
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:35,880
Speaker 2: and it's dolla dolla fucking bills.

891
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 1: Well, well, Jamie, as you know, things could be unethical

892
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:41,320
Speaker 1: but still be legal legal.

893
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:42,280
Speaker 2: That's how.

894
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 3: I mean, truly, what a gift that we have as that,

895
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 3: Like I am he a force of evil in the world, certainly,

896
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:57,359
Speaker 3: but I am grateful that he gave us that one thing,

897
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 3: just the way of uh describing juvenile lawless capitalists.

898
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so funny.

899
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:04,239
Speaker 1: Yeah.

900
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 2: One thing I have started to notice watching some of

901
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 2: the more recent and critical interviews with Lewis after the

902
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 2: SBF book is that, well, he's generally a pretty friendly

903
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 2: seeming guy. He starts to get really angry the instant

904
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 2: you question him on anything regarding one of his stories.

905
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:22,720
Speaker 2: And you see this in this story in the Oer story,

906
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 2: because Ower's former coach comes out and like defends the

907
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:28,719
Speaker 2: twohees or whatever. Once the lawsuit goes out, He's like,

908
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:31,400
Speaker 2: you know, I don't think they took advantage of him, basically,

909
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 2: and Ower calls it brave.

910
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:36,200
Speaker 3: And my professional, unbiased opinion, thank you.

911
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:39,759
Speaker 2: Yeah. Lewis calls the coach brave for doing this and

912
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:42,840
Speaker 2: basically says he's taking a stand against cancel culture. And

913
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 2: then here's the Guardian again. Lewis recalled Oer as a

914
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:49,319
Speaker 2: shy young boy and found it hard to square that

915
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 2: memory with the Oer behind the lawsuit. What we're watching

916
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 2: is a change of behavior. He told me. This is

917
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:56,759
Speaker 2: what happens to football players who get hit in the head.

918
00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 2: They run into problems with violence and aggression. It wouldn't

919
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 2: surprise him. Lewis said, if we were seeing some confluence

920
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:05,319
Speaker 2: of Ora's history in football with other campaigns that stoke

921
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:08,360
Speaker 2: claims in lawsuits like his, perhaps some lawyer of Ores

922
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:11,279
Speaker 2: figured the time was ripe to sue the tweilies, Lewis speculated,

923
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 2: or perhaps Oer realized that people would get behind him

924
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 2: if he makes these accusations. He's just a poor head,

925
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 2: injured boy.

926
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 3: I They're like, no, the perceived exploitation and racism you

927
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 3: experienced was the result of CTE that's Oh my.

928
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:30,759
Speaker 2: God, that's fucking wild. Right, that's gross as hell.

929
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:35,399
Speaker 3: Oh, Jamie, Wow, I just thought he was the guy

930
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 3: who wrote Moneyball. I thought that that was the hard

931
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:40,359
Speaker 3: I was thinking too.

932
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:43,120
Speaker 2: Now. Yeah, so here, I want you to keep in

933
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 2: mind how he wrote about his former subject. Oor Now

934
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 2: hear his him talking in a sixty minutes interview about

935
00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 2: Sam Bankman Free, the now convicted former billionaire, and I

936
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:55,399
Speaker 2: just want to I really want to emphasize the contrast

937
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 2: between how he writes about these two different people who

938
00:47:58,560 --> 00:47:59,720
Speaker 2: are subjects of his books.

939
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 4: The story of Sam's life is people not understanding him,

940
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:07,640
Speaker 4: misreading him. He's so different, he's so unusual. I mean,

941
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 4: I think in a funny way that the reason I

942
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:13,680
Speaker 4: have such a compelling story is I have a character

943
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:15,800
Speaker 4: that I do come to know, and then the reader

944
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:18,400
Speaker 4: comes to know that the world still doesn't know.

945
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:22,719
Speaker 2: Now, that is not the case. Sam Bakman Freed is

946
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 2: exactly the person he appears to be on the surface. Right,

947
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 2: He is a guy who committed a bunch of financial

948
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 2: crimes and didn't get away with it because he was

949
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:33,719
Speaker 2: too lazy and undisciplined to do with the smart way, right,

950
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:34,759
Speaker 2: and that's all that going.

951
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 3: I mean, this is like, oh, this is a bummer.

952
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:40,839
Speaker 3: This is like a case study and a journalist biases

953
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:41,799
Speaker 3: coming out on there.

954
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 2: Oh it's so it's so obvious. Yeah, No, story better

955
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:50,440
Speaker 2: illustrates this part of the story than how Lewis wound

956
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:53,800
Speaker 2: up writing Going Infinite in the first place. In twenty fourteen,

957
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:56,359
Speaker 2: Lewis published a book called Flash Boys, which is a

958
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:59,600
Speaker 2: book about Brad Katsuyama and a small group of rebel

959
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:02,279
Speaker 2: Walst investors who form I ex which is like a

960
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 2: stock exchange that's supposed to. The idea is we want

961
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 2: to protect investors from the unfair advantages that these high

962
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:11,600
Speaker 2: frequency trading firms have on traditional exchanges due to like

963
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:14,279
Speaker 2: a whole bunch of shit, but largely access to a

964
00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:18,319
Speaker 2: special fiber optic cable. And with most Lewis books, there's

965
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:20,560
Speaker 2: a lot of insiders that will criticize them foring some

966
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:23,359
Speaker 2: details wrong here and glossing over some issues that don't

967
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:26,399
Speaker 2: conform to his narrative. There's like a market crash that's

968
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:30,239
Speaker 2: largely mitigated by some of these firms that he's criticizing.

969
00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:31,520
Speaker 2: But I don't know enough about that to want to

970
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:34,239
Speaker 2: get into it. What's important is that Katsuyama and his

971
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 2: book of Rogue Traders are depicted semi heroically, is that

972
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:40,560
Speaker 2: they're kind of fighting against this rigged financial system, which

973
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:42,880
Speaker 2: you know, the financial systems rigged. I don't know about

974
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:45,040
Speaker 2: his characteristication of them, but the book is a hit

975
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:48,360
Speaker 2: and it makes Katsuyama and his crew celebrities within the

976
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 2: finance world. So Katsuyama reaches out to Lewis when he

977
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 2: is considering an institutional investment in FTX. He's like, we're

978
00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:59,480
Speaker 2: considering getting into crypto through these guys putting a lot

979
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:01,920
Speaker 2: of money on there exchange. Would you look into this

980
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 2: guy for me? Right? And this is what Lewis says.

981
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 2: Lewis like basically goes in there and like talks to

982
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 2: Sam Bankman Freed, and he's he's so impressed that he

983
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:14,520
Speaker 2: quotes himself as telling Katsuyama do whatever he wants to do.

984
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:18,919
Speaker 2: What could possibly go wrong? Right? That's which bad bet

985
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:21,479
Speaker 2: Uh does wind up putting money.

986
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 3: He is a worst person to ask what to go

987
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:25,359
Speaker 3: wrong with?

988
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:28,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, yeah, And I'm going to continue from the

989
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:31,719
Speaker 2: Guardian here. Okay, he did find himself intrigued in particular

990
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:35,040
Speaker 2: by effective altruism, the movement to which Bankman Freed subscribed.

991
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 2: Effective altruists believe in giving away most of what they

992
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:39,239
Speaker 2: make to do the most good in the world. Some

993
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 2: of them commit to earning as much as possible so

994
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:44,319
Speaker 2: as to donate more to their chosen beneficiaries. Having spent

995
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:46,479
Speaker 2: so long on Wall Street, Lewis wasn't used to meeting

996
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:48,720
Speaker 2: a wealthy young man who claimed to have no interest

997
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 2: in wealth. Unusually for Lewis, he couldn't figure Bankman Freed out.

998
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:54,560
Speaker 2: Michael just said, this kid is the richest and most

999
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 2: interesting young person I've ever met. Understand them all the

1000
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:01,440
Speaker 2: deep possesses of bank Reid's mind. But he knew it

1001
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:03,399
Speaker 2: was a great story. And this was before the shit

1002
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 2: hit the fan. So this is real talking. Yeah.

1003
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:09,840
Speaker 3: And also it takes someone who grew up in that

1004
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 3: environment to not have alarm bells going off in their

1005
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 3: mind when they hear oh, I, as someone who has

1006
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 3: never not had money, don't really care about money, You're like, well, yeah, no, shit,

1007
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:22,040
Speaker 3: you've never not had it.

1008
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:23,279
Speaker 2: You would really.

1009
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:25,319
Speaker 3: Care if you'd. That reminds me of this is like,

1010
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:27,840
Speaker 3: I think about this easily once a week. It happened

1011
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:30,840
Speaker 3: over ten years ago my freshman year of college. It

1012
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:33,400
Speaker 3: was my first time really encountering people who grew up

1013
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:37,120
Speaker 3: with like money, you know. And there was this guy

1014
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:40,440
Speaker 3: on my floor and one night everyone was hanging out

1015
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:43,239
Speaker 3: and he like, put a this is the era, this

1016
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:45,680
Speaker 3: is the early twenty tens. He put a skinny scarf

1017
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:49,520
Speaker 3: around my neck because it was cold, and he was like,

1018
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 3: you can have that, and it smelled and I didn't

1019
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:54,120
Speaker 3: want it. But he's like, you could have that. And

1020
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, don't you like want it back

1021
00:51:57,040 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 3: and he's like, no, I don't care about my material possessions.

1022
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:02,479
Speaker 2: And great.

1023
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:04,879
Speaker 3: I think about that all the time because he could

1024
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:08,600
Speaker 3: just get nine thousand scarves. You just get nine thousand scarves.

1025
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:10,440
Speaker 3: But that was like, but I feel like that is

1026
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:12,600
Speaker 3: so much of what effect of altruism is. It's just

1027
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:16,880
Speaker 3: a fundamental like, yeah, not understanding how the world works.

1028
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:20,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's a bunch of rich kids who are

1029
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:24,040
Speaker 2: talking through like fucking philosophy one oh one level shit

1030
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:27,840
Speaker 2: and think and so impressed by everyone else's answers to

1031
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:32,000
Speaker 2: like dumb logic puzzles because they've they've never studied enough

1032
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:34,359
Speaker 2: humanities to know that like no man, people have been

1033
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 2: talking about this shit for thousands of years and all

1034
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:40,239
Speaker 2: of their takes are better than yours. Like anyway, we're

1035
00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:42,600
Speaker 2: not getting into that as much right now. We are

1036
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:44,960
Speaker 2: about to get into the ads and if you really

1037
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:48,560
Speaker 2: want to do some effective altruism, purchase from the sponsors

1038
00:52:48,560 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 2: of this podcast. Ah. So, we've been talking around the

1039
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:05,480
Speaker 2: book Going Infinite, which is Michael's terrible book on Sam,

1040
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:07,160
Speaker 2: so I think now is probably a good time to

1041
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:10,239
Speaker 2: dig into exactly how it fails. I wanted to start

1042
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:12,680
Speaker 2: by introducing that contrast between Lewis's treatment of o OR

1043
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 2: and SBF first, because it puts things into perspective. Now,

1044
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:18,360
Speaker 2: I think a good anecdote to start on. Here is

1045
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:21,120
Speaker 2: one of the stories Lewis uses to introduce Sam to

1046
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:23,400
Speaker 2: the reader. This is right at the start of Going Infinite,

1047
00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:26,239
Speaker 2: and it's about a phone call that Sam has during

1048
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:30,560
Speaker 2: his billionaire era with fashion industry icon Anna Wintour before

1049
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:35,880
Speaker 2: the Metgala. No oh yeah, oh yeah, Jamie. This this

1050
00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:36,600
Speaker 2: is good.

1051
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:42,239
Speaker 3: So exhausted because Anna Wintour is Bill Nye, He's girlfriend

1052
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:44,279
Speaker 3: right now, and I don't want to think poorly of

1053
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:44,839
Speaker 3: Bill Nye.

1054
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:48,640
Speaker 2: He does no, No, it is tragic. My heart goes

1055
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:51,480
Speaker 2: out to Bill Nye, who I'm incapable of feeling badly about.

1056
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:54,160
Speaker 3: No, I'm here, I'm sitting my ass down and listening.

1057
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:57,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Anna is who Meryl Streep's character in The

1058
00:53:57,120 --> 00:53:59,800
Speaker 2: Devilwar's product is based on, right, Like, that's who this

1059
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:01,000
Speaker 2: person is. Oh.

1060
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:03,839
Speaker 3: I love when men try to explain what The Devil

1061
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 3: Wears Prada is about. Yes, for all the men listening,

1062
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:10,920
Speaker 3: pause and go watch The Devil Wears Prada. It is

1063
00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 3: just like one of the greatest films of I think,

1064
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:18,560
Speaker 3: one of the greatest comedy films and books of Yeah,

1065
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:19,520
Speaker 3: very good.

1066
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:21,280
Speaker 2: Very good, happy essays.

1067
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:24,120
Speaker 1: Half the essays I wrote in college were based off

1068
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:24,840
Speaker 1: of said book.

1069
00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:29,480
Speaker 2: Really, the met Gala is an annual event. I think

1070
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:32,800
Speaker 2: Vogue puts it on technically, but like it's where rich, famous,

1071
00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:36,279
Speaker 2: and occasionally even beautiful people were insane outfits that cost

1072
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:38,120
Speaker 2: the GDP of a small island nation.

1073
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:41,040
Speaker 3: Right, yes, and then and then a bunch of YouTubers

1074
00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:42,960
Speaker 3: I watch say that they looked ugly.

1075
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:46,600
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, it's a true. Yeah, it's it's great. It's great.

1076
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:49,520
Speaker 2: Everybody makes a feast off of it. But somebody has

1077
00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:51,400
Speaker 2: to pay for the Son of a Bitch, right, and

1078
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:54,919
Speaker 2: that year went Tour wanted SBF to pay for the gala, right.

1079
00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:59,239
Speaker 2: He was spending way more money on stupider shit than that,

1080
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:04,160
Speaker 2: so not unreasonable that he might actually agree to do this.

1081
00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:07,239
Speaker 2: He had instructed at this point his publicity woman to

1082
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:10,200
Speaker 2: do whatever she could to increase ftx's reputation and keep

1083
00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:12,120
Speaker 2: his name in the news. So not a bad way

1084
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:14,680
Speaker 2: to do that, right. The met gala often does make

1085
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:17,880
Speaker 2: the news, And when it came to his side of

1086
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:20,960
Speaker 2: the job, though, Sam was he put as much work

1087
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:24,000
Speaker 2: into like this call with Anna win Tour where tens

1088
00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:26,080
Speaker 2: of millions of dollars are on the line, that he

1089
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:28,479
Speaker 2: did to like everything else that he had a meeting about,

1090
00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:30,920
Speaker 2: which is no work at all. Right. Lewis goes into

1091
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:33,640
Speaker 2: detail about the fact that he's playing this dumb video game,

1092
00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:36,160
Speaker 2: like while he's on a zoom call with her. It's

1093
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:38,880
Speaker 2: the same game he's always playing. It's this this video

1094
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:40,880
Speaker 2: game that he winds up buying because it's made by

1095
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:46,120
Speaker 2: a friend of his called Storybook Brawl, and it's it's

1096
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 2: about like Fable characters fighting, right, Like it's it's that

1097
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 2: it's a little strategy game. It's like an it's like

1098
00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:54,720
Speaker 2: an app game. It's not a real game.

1099
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:57,400
Speaker 3: You know, you know how you watch those videos And

1100
00:55:57,480 --> 00:56:02,200
Speaker 3: I say this with love and appreciation of like college

1101
00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:09,440
Speaker 3: students now playing a video game while explaining like Marxism

1102
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:13,880
Speaker 3: to you and I want that. But Sam Bankmin Freed

1103
00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:16,960
Speaker 3: playing that game. Well, well, Anna Wintour is like what

1104
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:17,920
Speaker 3: is he up to?

1105
00:56:18,239 --> 00:56:19,960
Speaker 2: What is he up to?

1106
00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:23,320
Speaker 1: The Jamie and I in Unison when you said playing

1107
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:27,879
Speaker 1: video game while talking to Anna Wintour, mouth wide open, like.

1108
00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:30,439
Speaker 3: Well, it's like she could, I mean and and and

1109
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:33,319
Speaker 3: not even to like endorse her. I'm just like I

1110
00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:35,840
Speaker 3: would be very afraid to do anything in front of

1111
00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:38,720
Speaker 3: scary and she's famously scary.

1112
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:43,080
Speaker 2: She's famously scary. And he's talking about a lot of money, right,

1113
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:45,760
Speaker 2: Like it's it's not that he's blowing her off, because

1114
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:49,239
Speaker 2: like I don't feel precious about Anna Wintour's time, but

1115
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:52,279
Speaker 2: like it's that this is a big money deal and

1116
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:55,000
Speaker 2: he just he can't focus on it. And I would

1117
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:57,000
Speaker 2: take that. It's just like this is a this is

1118
00:56:57,000 --> 00:56:59,799
Speaker 2: a dude too, smadhd right, Like that's what that is.

1119
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:02,440
Speaker 2: And this is a dude who has ADHD, who's part

1120
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:04,520
Speaker 2: of a generation that has ADHD.

1121
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:09,239
Speaker 3: Well, No, this is a very dumb observation. But it's

1122
00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:12,960
Speaker 3: also clear to me that Sam bank Bankment Freed has

1123
00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:15,239
Speaker 3: never seen the Devilwaar's product, which I've never been less

1124
00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:17,400
Speaker 3: surprised at. But it's like, if you have no one

1125
00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:21,680
Speaker 3: in your life who could tip you off you're talking

1126
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:26,120
Speaker 3: to me, protagonist of the Devilwaars product, then you lack

1127
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:30,000
Speaker 3: a support structure in a fundamental way. I think it's

1128
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:33,560
Speaker 3: it's okay, that's good to know that funny and I

1129
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:33,960
Speaker 3: are here.

1130
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:37,080
Speaker 2: What's funny about the way Lewis talks about this is

1131
00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:39,680
Speaker 2: that he marvels at this right like it's the most

1132
00:57:39,720 --> 00:57:42,920
Speaker 2: amazing thing, and it's evidence of how unique Sam is.

1133
00:57:42,920 --> 00:57:46,080
Speaker 2: When you just noted one of the biggest pieces of

1134
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:50,480
Speaker 2: entertainment for millennials in gen z is people playing video

1135
00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:54,160
Speaker 2: games and explaining politics. Right that is, it is not

1136
00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:57,760
Speaker 2: at all unique that Sam Bankman Freed will not stop

1137
00:57:57,840 --> 00:58:00,880
Speaker 2: gaming to have a business meeting. But Michael Lewis treats

1138
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:03,000
Speaker 2: it as like this is evidence that he is too

1139
00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:06,320
Speaker 2: much of a genius he can't bear to pay attention

1140
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:08,640
Speaker 2: to her for a second. It also there's a little

1141
00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:11,160
Speaker 2: bit of anti woman stuff in here, because Lewis notes

1142
00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:15,280
Speaker 2: that I think Sam would minimize the window with her

1143
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:17,600
Speaker 2: face on it whenever she spoke and bring it back

1144
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:20,920
Speaker 2: up whenever he talked. Right, curiously, only when he was

1145
00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:23,520
Speaker 2: talking did he want to see her, which I do

1146
00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:28,840
Speaker 2: think there's a lot in that sentence. So yeahsting, Yeah.

1147
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:32,160
Speaker 2: It is again like the way Lewis describes this, this

1148
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:34,440
Speaker 2: isn't just yeah, he's not very disciplined, and he has

1149
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:36,880
Speaker 2: the same thing that like a lot of millennial and

1150
00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:39,440
Speaker 2: gen Z people have, which is, you know, an inability

1151
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:42,840
Speaker 2: to stop distracting yourself no matter what important shit you're doing.

1152
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:47,000
Speaker 2: He describes this as SBF's brain being so big that

1153
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:50,000
Speaker 2: like games are he's like a Sherlock Holmes character and

1154
00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:52,520
Speaker 2: games are his heroin. Right, Well, that makes me.

1155
00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:56,120
Speaker 3: That indicates to me that Michael Lewis, because that's the

1156
00:58:56,160 --> 00:58:59,520
Speaker 3: way that you're like, like you're doting parent would talk

1157
00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:02,040
Speaker 3: about it, and like that's that is clear to me.

1158
00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:03,920
Speaker 3: The way he sees him is like, wow, look at

1159
00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:07,160
Speaker 3: this amazing kid. And also what SBF is doing here

1160
00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:11,160
Speaker 3: is like the inverse of what most easily distracted millennial

1161
00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:14,000
Speaker 3: and gen Z people are doing, which they're playing games

1162
00:59:14,040 --> 00:59:17,120
Speaker 3: and explaining radical politics to you. They're not playing games

1163
00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:20,640
Speaker 3: and talking to some like like half listening to someone

1164
00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:23,040
Speaker 3: before they part with millions of dollars to throw the

1165
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:27,960
Speaker 3: world's stupidest annual party. Yeah, and I love that stupid

1166
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:28,600
Speaker 3: ass party.

1167
00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:31,120
Speaker 2: It's it's I mean, I think both of those things

1168
00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:33,760
Speaker 2: are on a similar level potentially, but it depends on

1169
00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:36,600
Speaker 2: how you do them. And he's not actually good at it.

1170
00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:40,080
Speaker 2: But the way Lewis describes this is he just is

1171
00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:46,360
Speaker 2: in awe of this kid's ability to have attention deficit disorder. Quote. Yeah, absolutely,

1172
00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:49,200
Speaker 2: said Sam. But his mind was elsewhere. The hoard dragon

1173
00:59:49,360 --> 00:59:51,680
Speaker 2: was dead and a win tour had killed it. What

1174
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:53,760
Speaker 2: to do? He made a half hearted bid to begin

1175
00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:56,320
Speaker 2: another game and pick another hero, but then changed his

1176
00:59:56,360 --> 00:59:58,880
Speaker 2: mind and shut the game down. He could often occupy

1177
00:59:58,920 --> 01:00:01,320
Speaker 2: two worlds at once in w in both. In this case,

1178
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:03,560
Speaker 2: he clearly stood no chance of winning in one world

1179
01:00:03,640 --> 01:00:06,280
Speaker 2: unless he paid less attention in the other. And this woman,

1180
01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:09,080
Speaker 2: somehow it acquired a spell that interfered with his abilities

1181
01:00:09,120 --> 01:00:13,320
Speaker 2: to multitask. What an amazing way to write that paragraph.

1182
01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:20,000
Speaker 2: Michael Lewis, dude, Oh god, it's it's something else. Like

1183
01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:23,440
Speaker 2: I have played video games through some important work meetings.

1184
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:25,760
Speaker 2: Sophie has often had to pick my ass up off

1185
01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:28,720
Speaker 2: that it's not because I'm a genius. It's because I'm

1186
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:32,439
Speaker 2: hungover and have trouble focusing because I use Twitter too much.

1187
01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:35,840
Speaker 3: There's so many there's like so many, I mean whatever.

1188
01:00:36,120 --> 01:00:38,240
Speaker 3: And also you have to imagine that this manuscript made

1189
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:41,240
Speaker 3: it through a lot. It speaks to how old people

1190
01:00:41,520 --> 01:00:44,080
Speaker 3: in general who work in the public stitching industry are

1191
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:47,080
Speaker 3: that no one was like Michael, I have to tell

1192
01:00:47,120 --> 01:00:49,360
Speaker 3: you that this is just how kids are these days.

1193
01:00:49,400 --> 01:00:51,680
Speaker 2: He's a real venture game ganius. Yeah.

1194
01:00:52,240 --> 01:00:53,840
Speaker 3: I mean it's like we've both written books. Like I

1195
01:00:54,440 --> 01:00:57,400
Speaker 3: was surprised that I got the title of my book through,

1196
01:00:57,760 --> 01:01:00,760
Speaker 3: but it was because people over sixty don't know what

1197
01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:05,320
Speaker 3: raw Dog needs. And that's most people I'm publishing. Like,

1198
01:01:05,360 --> 01:01:08,200
Speaker 3: it's ridiculous, that's so nuts that that made it to

1199
01:01:08,240 --> 01:01:08,920
Speaker 3: the final book.

1200
01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:13,320
Speaker 2: No, it's like that's yeah. So if you're not reading

1201
01:01:13,320 --> 01:01:15,640
Speaker 2: critically and inclined to give Lewis the bit of the

1202
01:01:15,680 --> 01:01:17,600
Speaker 2: benefit of the doubt, I can see how you might

1203
01:01:17,960 --> 01:01:20,880
Speaker 2: assume that like he's trying to make Sam look kind

1204
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:23,160
Speaker 2: of silly in that paragraph. I can see how you

1205
01:01:23,200 --> 01:01:25,800
Speaker 2: would assume that based on the text, but that is

1206
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:28,840
Speaker 2: not what's going on. Listener. Here is Lewis talking about

1207
01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:32,320
Speaker 2: that exact same moment in an interview with Intelligence Squared

1208
01:01:32,360 --> 01:01:33,440
Speaker 2: from about a month ago.

1209
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:37,720
Speaker 4: Yay, so on the screen zoom and a win tour,

1210
01:01:38,560 --> 01:01:41,760
Speaker 4: and he does not know who she is. He doesn't

1211
01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:45,480
Speaker 4: know what the purpose of the meeting is. He doesn't know, well,

1212
01:01:45,520 --> 01:01:47,440
Speaker 4: the purpose of the meeting is can Sam Bank mcfreed

1213
01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:49,840
Speaker 4: pay for the whole met gala? That's the purpose of

1214
01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:52,200
Speaker 4: the meeting, because he'll pay for everything else. Why not that?

1215
01:01:52,640 --> 01:01:54,600
Speaker 4: And she comes on the screen and she is dressed

1216
01:01:54,640 --> 01:01:57,000
Speaker 4: to the nine. She's got those size of hair coming

1217
01:01:57,040 --> 01:02:01,480
Speaker 4: down around her. She's like ready to kill and gorgeous.

1218
01:02:01,520 --> 01:02:04,440
Speaker 4: You know, she looks great, She's well prepared. He's playing

1219
01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:05,760
Speaker 4: Storybook Brawl.

1220
01:02:05,520 --> 01:02:06,680
Speaker 2: Which is his video game.

1221
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:07,320
Speaker 3: Pause.

1222
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:09,000
Speaker 2: I hate the way he talks.

1223
01:02:08,760 --> 01:02:10,800
Speaker 1: About Anna Wintour, Thank you very much.

1224
01:02:11,080 --> 01:02:13,600
Speaker 2: Well, okay, okay, And first we can deal with that

1225
01:02:13,680 --> 01:02:14,760
Speaker 2: in private, ze fair.

1226
01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:16,800
Speaker 3: We can no, no, before we can talk about a

1227
01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:20,440
Speaker 3: woman on a zoom call. Does she look gorgeous or yeah.

1228
01:02:20,080 --> 01:02:22,360
Speaker 1: That's the point. It has nothing to do with Anna Winter. Also,

1229
01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:24,200
Speaker 1: she looks like that all the time, Thank you so much.

1230
01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:25,560
Speaker 2: It's her thing.

1231
01:02:26,120 --> 01:02:29,040
Speaker 4: And wherever she comes on the screen, he blacks her

1232
01:02:29,040 --> 01:02:31,520
Speaker 4: out and the video game pops up, so like she's

1233
01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:37,520
Speaker 4: she's talking and and mons, minotaurs are killing, are killing dwarfs,

1234
01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:41,840
Speaker 4: and trees with axes are coming in and like you know,

1235
01:02:42,360 --> 01:02:45,240
Speaker 4: the weapons are appearing on the screen and people are

1236
01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:48,200
Speaker 4: dying and exploding, and and you're hearing her talk about

1237
01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:49,120
Speaker 4: the met Gala.

1238
01:02:49,240 --> 01:02:52,240
Speaker 2: And there's seven minutes in when he hits.

1239
01:02:52,080 --> 01:02:54,720
Speaker 4: A button in the Wikipedia entry for the met galap

1240
01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:56,520
Speaker 4: comes up, so he can figure out what the hell

1241
01:02:56,560 --> 01:02:57,480
Speaker 4: she's talking about.

1242
01:02:58,320 --> 01:03:01,360
Speaker 2: And he's doing watched him do this. He's doing this

1243
01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:01,760
Speaker 2: with her.

1244
01:03:01,880 --> 01:03:04,200
Speaker 4: This is what he was doing on live television when

1245
01:03:04,240 --> 01:03:05,800
Speaker 4: he would be interviewed by Bloomberg TV.

1246
01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:08,000
Speaker 2: It was like and he had tricks.

1247
01:03:08,600 --> 01:03:10,360
Speaker 4: He took him about one tenth of his brain to

1248
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:14,280
Speaker 4: have a conversation with Anna Wintour, And what he would

1249
01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:17,520
Speaker 4: do other part of his brain was either reading about

1250
01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:21,280
Speaker 4: who she was or playing his game. And what he'd

1251
01:03:21,280 --> 01:03:24,080
Speaker 4: do is he'd say, you asked me a question. He'd say,

1252
01:03:24,920 --> 01:03:28,120
Speaker 4: that's a really good question. It's a really good question.

1253
01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:30,040
Speaker 4: Let me think about that for a minute. You know, meanwhile,

1254
01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:32,360
Speaker 4: the minutaur is killing the tree and he comes off

1255
01:03:32,360 --> 01:03:34,000
Speaker 4: and then he thinks for a minute, and he says

1256
01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:35,200
Speaker 4: some boilerplate thing.

1257
01:03:36,120 --> 01:03:40,360
Speaker 2: So that does not show genius. He's obviously the smile

1258
01:03:40,400 --> 01:03:42,800
Speaker 2: on his face, that is not him being critical. That's

1259
01:03:42,880 --> 01:03:47,480
Speaker 2: him thinking about like, that's him fawning over this kid

1260
01:03:47,200 --> 01:03:51,960
Speaker 2: for not being prepared for a multimillion dollar meeting, right,

1261
01:03:52,280 --> 01:03:55,640
Speaker 2: which is like, fine, but that's not an example of

1262
01:03:55,720 --> 01:03:56,640
Speaker 2: him being smart.

1263
01:03:57,400 --> 01:04:00,440
Speaker 3: Well, And I think that that is a clear pattered

1264
01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:04,040
Speaker 3: in the way that we cover the like young white

1265
01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:06,680
Speaker 3: kid genius who comes from a rich background. There's a

1266
01:04:06,720 --> 01:04:11,040
Speaker 3: lot of similarities in how early Mark Zuckerberg's like casual

1267
01:04:11,080 --> 01:04:15,400
Speaker 3: misogyny and not giving a ship about people was like

1268
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:17,919
Speaker 3: part and parcel to why he was cool and why

1269
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:20,680
Speaker 3: he was seen as a visionary. Like that the same

1270
01:04:20,760 --> 01:04:23,640
Speaker 3: is truth. Like just I mean, I feel like every

1271
01:04:23,720 --> 01:04:26,480
Speaker 3: generation has at least one of these guys, and they're

1272
01:04:26,520 --> 01:04:28,360
Speaker 3: all covered in the same way. No one ever learns

1273
01:04:28,360 --> 01:04:30,800
Speaker 3: their lesson because the guy covering them is often the

1274
01:04:30,880 --> 01:04:38,120
Speaker 3: same guy. Literally Michael Lewis and often literally Michael Lewis.

1275
01:04:38,120 --> 01:04:40,920
Speaker 1: How did how did okay, I'm sorry, how did this

1276
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:42,360
Speaker 1: revolve with Anna Wintour?

1277
01:04:42,480 --> 01:04:44,240
Speaker 3: Did she like the fact that she.

1278
01:04:44,200 --> 01:04:46,920
Speaker 2: Didn't he said, He says, yeah, I'll pay for it,

1279
01:04:46,960 --> 01:04:48,240
Speaker 2: and then he just ghosts her.

1280
01:04:48,560 --> 01:04:51,440
Speaker 1: Yeah. So the fact that Anna wind Tour didn't like

1281
01:04:51,440 --> 01:04:55,480
Speaker 1: like smoke out that he was like fully a fraud

1282
01:04:56,520 --> 01:04:58,560
Speaker 1: at the girlies.

1283
01:04:58,800 --> 01:05:00,000
Speaker 2: The girlies are disappointed.

1284
01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:05,000
Speaker 3: I'm not caping for Anna Wintor here, but the famously.

1285
01:05:04,520 --> 01:05:05,840
Speaker 1: Named the Dragon Lady.

1286
01:05:05,880 --> 01:05:09,720
Speaker 3: Well, no, SBF is lucky that he'll never encounter Bill

1287
01:05:09,800 --> 01:05:11,960
Speaker 3: Nai because Bill for Bill Nihey, it would be on

1288
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:12,240
Speaker 3: the phone.

1289
01:05:12,320 --> 01:05:13,680
Speaker 2: Bill would fuck him.

1290
01:05:15,960 --> 01:05:18,720
Speaker 3: So he was an I Frankenstein for crying. He was

1291
01:05:18,760 --> 01:05:23,280
Speaker 3: in Detective pikat Chip break was broken like my brain.

1292
01:05:23,960 --> 01:05:28,360
Speaker 2: So Bra, these are these are amusing anecdotes right what

1293
01:05:28,480 --> 01:05:31,080
Speaker 2: he's what he's telling. Potentially, if you are someone who

1294
01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:34,040
Speaker 2: is critical about him, that same anecdote could could form

1295
01:05:34,160 --> 01:05:38,160
Speaker 2: part of your thesis about why this kid got away

1296
01:05:38,160 --> 01:05:40,400
Speaker 2: with it and for so long and why he ultimately

1297
01:05:40,440 --> 01:05:43,240
Speaker 2: flamed out. But Lewis is convinced that these show you

1298
01:05:43,280 --> 01:05:45,760
Speaker 2: evidence of Sam's genius, and he sets this up early

1299
01:05:45,800 --> 01:05:48,880
Speaker 2: in the book, talking about Sam's childhood quote. He had

1300
01:05:48,920 --> 01:05:51,800
Speaker 2: a fault line inside him. Pressure was building on it,

1301
01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:54,880
Speaker 2: and one day in the seventh grade, he slipped. His

1302
01:05:54,960 --> 01:05:57,680
Speaker 2: mother returned from work to find Sam alone in despair.

1303
01:05:58,040 --> 01:06:00,200
Speaker 2: I came home and he was crying. Recalled by b

1304
01:06:00,480 --> 01:06:05,720
Speaker 2: he said, I'm so bored, I'm going to die, and like, oh, yeah,

1305
01:06:05,800 --> 01:06:09,040
Speaker 2: I have had a similar conversation with my mom. And

1306
01:06:09,080 --> 01:06:11,520
Speaker 2: it's a sign. You know, certainly Sam has been diagnosed

1307
01:06:11,520 --> 01:06:14,800
Speaker 2: with ADHD. That's certainly one way in which that can manifest.

1308
01:06:14,880 --> 01:06:18,000
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Hold on one for the girlies again.

1309
01:06:18,040 --> 01:06:20,440
Speaker 1: That is a direct quote from Sex and the City.

1310
01:06:20,680 --> 01:06:21,600
Speaker 2: Oh okay, that is.

1311
01:06:21,560 --> 01:06:23,479
Speaker 1: A direct quote from a Sex in the City.

1312
01:06:23,840 --> 01:06:27,040
Speaker 2: Sure, I'm sure Sam's a big Samantha.

1313
01:06:26,680 --> 01:06:28,040
Speaker 3: Hey who says it?

1314
01:06:28,440 --> 01:06:30,320
Speaker 1: But she goes, I'm so bored I could die And

1315
01:06:30,360 --> 01:06:32,320
Speaker 1: she jumps out of and she falls out of the window.

1316
01:06:32,360 --> 01:06:36,920
Speaker 3: Oh my god. Really one of the most famous in

1317
01:06:36,920 --> 01:06:37,320
Speaker 3: the city.

1318
01:06:37,680 --> 01:06:42,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't remember that anyway. So, because like Lewis again, again,

1319
01:06:42,800 --> 01:06:44,479
Speaker 2: if you're if you're just kind of being honest about

1320
01:06:44,520 --> 01:06:46,640
Speaker 2: Sam writing a book, he might be like, well, Sam

1321
01:06:46,680 --> 01:06:50,120
Speaker 2: gets diagnosed with ADHD. This moment makes total sense as like, yeah,

1322
01:06:50,160 --> 01:06:52,840
Speaker 2: this is a kid who's got ADHD and he's also

1323
01:06:53,080 --> 01:06:55,160
Speaker 2: you know, good at math and stuff. He's bored in

1324
01:06:55,200 --> 01:06:58,720
Speaker 2: the classes that he's in. But Lewis does not acknowledge

1325
01:06:58,760 --> 01:07:01,520
Speaker 2: that Sam has ADHD in his book. He doesn't say

1326
01:07:01,560 --> 01:07:05,080
Speaker 2: anything about it because that would that's not a bad thing, obviously,

1327
01:07:05,400 --> 01:07:08,000
Speaker 2: but it's also that you like, you're not a genius

1328
01:07:08,040 --> 01:07:10,800
Speaker 2: just because you have ADHD. Right, plenty of people who

1329
01:07:10,840 --> 01:07:13,760
Speaker 2: are not super geniuses have ADHD. It's just a thing.

1330
01:07:14,680 --> 01:07:17,400
Speaker 3: Well, and it's like if you're if you're talking about

1331
01:07:17,600 --> 01:07:21,040
Speaker 3: that behavior and I want to be like delicate, and

1332
01:07:21,040 --> 01:07:24,240
Speaker 3: then they talk about it, but it's like it's contextually important.

1333
01:07:25,320 --> 01:07:27,200
Speaker 2: If you proceed from the principle like, yeah, this is

1334
01:07:27,200 --> 01:07:30,720
Speaker 2: a kid with ADHD, then there's another explanation for his

1335
01:07:30,760 --> 01:07:33,360
Speaker 2: addiction to games, his inability to focus on stuff, right

1336
01:07:33,600 --> 01:07:35,800
Speaker 2: and it it and then it means those things aren't

1337
01:07:35,800 --> 01:07:39,640
Speaker 2: a sign of his brilliance right now. Part of why

1338
01:07:39,680 --> 01:07:41,840
Speaker 2: I'm critical of Michael for this is that he does

1339
01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:45,240
Speaker 2: make a note about one character's ADHD in the book,

1340
01:07:45,440 --> 01:07:48,520
Speaker 2: and it's Carolyn Ellison, who comes across as one of

1341
01:07:48,520 --> 01:07:50,840
Speaker 2: the villains in the book. And I should note that

1342
01:07:50,880 --> 01:07:53,080
Speaker 2: the following paragraph comes to me part of the book

1343
01:07:53,240 --> 01:07:56,160
Speaker 2: where Lewis is talking to George, who is a therapist

1344
01:07:56,400 --> 01:07:59,880
Speaker 2: who worked for FTX as the company shrink. So, among

1345
01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:04,120
Speaker 2: other things, this is a therapist talking about his patient. Right, Okay.

1346
01:08:04,880 --> 01:08:07,080
Speaker 2: When she'd first come to him back in twenty eighteen,

1347
01:08:07,160 --> 01:08:09,480
Speaker 2: she'd had two issues. She wanted to talk about, her

1348
01:08:09,520 --> 01:08:13,440
Speaker 2: attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and her new and emotionally complicated

1349
01:08:13,440 --> 01:08:17,240
Speaker 2: polyamorous lifestyle. Every subsequent session after the first, Carolyn came

1350
01:08:17,280 --> 01:08:20,040
Speaker 2: back with just one issue. She wanted to discuss Sam.

1351
01:08:20,400 --> 01:08:23,040
Speaker 2: She'd fallen in love with Sam. Sam didn't love her back,

1352
01:08:23,160 --> 01:08:25,679
Speaker 2: and that fact alone left her deeply unhappy. I thought

1353
01:08:25,680 --> 01:08:27,800
Speaker 2: of her as an exception, said George. I thought she

1354
01:08:27,920 --> 01:08:30,840
Speaker 2: might be willing to trade effective altruism for reciprocation of

1355
01:08:30,880 --> 01:08:33,880
Speaker 2: love any day. Right, Sorry, how is it?

1356
01:08:34,200 --> 01:08:34,280
Speaker 1: Like?

1357
01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:38,200
Speaker 3: I mean, I truly like, how was it even legal

1358
01:08:38,320 --> 01:08:40,439
Speaker 3: or ethical for this information.

1359
01:08:40,000 --> 01:08:43,000
Speaker 2: To I don't actually know. I don't like that truly,

1360
01:08:43,000 --> 01:08:44,280
Speaker 2: because it seems.

1361
01:08:44,439 --> 01:08:46,800
Speaker 3: You're not supposed to be able to do like. They're

1362
01:08:46,840 --> 01:08:48,439
Speaker 3: famously not supposed to be able to do that. And

1363
01:08:48,520 --> 01:08:51,320
Speaker 3: also not to like overly come to her defense. But

1364
01:08:51,360 --> 01:08:56,880
Speaker 3: also it's like that if anyone's therapy logs were leaked,

1365
01:08:56,880 --> 01:08:59,000
Speaker 3: it would be like, oh, they had this fixation on

1366
01:08:59,040 --> 01:09:02,720
Speaker 3: this issue. Yeah, that's why you fucking go dude, you know,

1367
01:09:02,880 --> 01:09:04,760
Speaker 3: go there to be a reasoned person.

1368
01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:08,080
Speaker 2: No, and especially since like what's what's messy to me

1369
01:09:08,160 --> 01:09:10,040
Speaker 2: is that he brings that he makes sure to bring

1370
01:09:10,080 --> 01:09:12,840
Speaker 2: this up with Carolyn because he's kind of writing that

1371
01:09:12,920 --> 01:09:16,360
Speaker 2: like she was unreliable, she wasn't focusing enough, she was

1372
01:09:16,400 --> 01:09:22,200
Speaker 2: in love with him, hysterical, whereas he's just this misunderstood genius.

1373
01:09:22,520 --> 01:09:25,240
Speaker 2: But he notes her ADHD and he doesn't note Sam's,

1374
01:09:25,240 --> 01:09:28,160
Speaker 2: even though Sam's ADHD is a matter of public fucking record. Now,

1375
01:09:28,600 --> 01:09:31,439
Speaker 2: like his family went to court to get him his

1376
01:09:31,520 --> 01:09:34,160
Speaker 2: medicine a thing.

1377
01:09:34,160 --> 01:09:37,920
Speaker 3: It's like not even looking that he particularly tries to obscure, right, No,

1378
01:09:38,120 --> 01:09:39,720
Speaker 3: like no, yeah.

1379
01:09:39,200 --> 01:09:41,599
Speaker 2: And again it's critical to understand him because it provides

1380
01:09:41,640 --> 01:09:44,719
Speaker 2: an alternate explanation for all this behavior that Lewis chalks

1381
01:09:44,800 --> 01:09:47,920
Speaker 2: up to him just like only needing ten percent of

1382
01:09:47,920 --> 01:09:52,840
Speaker 2: his brain to talk to people. Yeah, now there's another

1383
01:09:53,080 --> 01:09:55,800
Speaker 2: like there's another very fun bit in this which kind

1384
01:09:55,800 --> 01:09:57,479
Speaker 2: of relates to that, which is that, and this is

1385
01:09:57,479 --> 01:09:59,519
Speaker 2: like the weirdest through line in Going Infinite, which is

1386
01:09:59,760 --> 01:10:03,800
Speaker 2: my Lewis does not understand games right like he is,

1387
01:10:03,880 --> 01:10:06,920
Speaker 2: so he writes about like video games and board games

1388
01:10:06,920 --> 01:10:09,720
Speaker 2: and other popular nerd pastimes that are now like the

1389
01:10:09,840 --> 01:10:13,320
Speaker 2: dominant form of entertainment by money in our country. He

1390
01:10:13,360 --> 01:10:16,160
Speaker 2: talks about them like he's an alien who's just arrived

1391
01:10:16,200 --> 01:10:20,200
Speaker 2: on the planet. And as a result, he talks about

1392
01:10:20,200 --> 01:10:22,479
Speaker 2: Sam's embrace of this stuff at the expense of everything

1393
01:10:22,479 --> 01:10:25,960
Speaker 2: else to be evidence of brilliance. Quote. He felt nothing

1394
01:10:26,000 --> 01:10:28,960
Speaker 2: in the presence of art. He found religion absurd. He

1395
01:10:29,000 --> 01:10:31,519
Speaker 2: thought both right wing and left wing political opinions kind

1396
01:10:31,520 --> 01:10:33,720
Speaker 2: of dumb, less a consequence of thought than of their

1397
01:10:33,760 --> 01:10:36,920
Speaker 2: holder's tribal identity. He and his family ignored the rituals

1398
01:10:36,920 --> 01:10:40,200
Speaker 2: that punctuated most people's existence. He didn't even celebrate his

1399
01:10:40,240 --> 01:10:43,160
Speaker 2: own birthday. What gave pleasure and solace and a sense

1400
01:10:43,200 --> 01:10:46,000
Speaker 2: of belonging to others left Sam cold. When the bankman

1401
01:10:46,040 --> 01:10:48,360
Speaker 2: Freeds traveled to Europe, Sam realized that he was just

1402
01:10:48,360 --> 01:10:51,240
Speaker 2: staring at a lot of old buildings for no particular reason.

1403
01:10:51,600 --> 01:10:53,840
Speaker 2: We did a few trips, he said, I basically hated

1404
01:10:53,880 --> 01:10:58,320
Speaker 2: it to his unrelenting alienation. There was only one exception. Games.

1405
01:10:58,760 --> 01:11:01,240
Speaker 2: In sixth grade, Sam learned of had a game called

1406
01:11:01,320 --> 01:11:04,000
Speaker 2: Magic the Gathering. For the next four years, it was

1407
01:11:04,040 --> 01:11:07,000
Speaker 2: the only activity that consumed him faster than he could

1408
01:11:07,040 --> 01:11:12,080
Speaker 2: consume it. And this is so funny because like Lewis

1409
01:11:12,120 --> 01:11:15,920
Speaker 2: has to describe Magic the Gathering after this point, and

1410
01:11:15,960 --> 01:11:20,240
Speaker 2: he like he describes it basically it's the first game

1411
01:11:20,320 --> 01:11:23,680
Speaker 2: ever made where like you like the way that you

1412
01:11:23,760 --> 01:11:26,639
Speaker 2: play it, like it's it's different, Like every character can

1413
01:11:26,680 --> 01:11:29,280
Speaker 2: come into this strategy game with a different set of equipment.

1414
01:11:29,520 --> 01:11:31,599
Speaker 2: No one had ever done this before. It was all

1415
01:11:31,680 --> 01:11:34,080
Speaker 2: like chess where everyone's the same. And it's like, no,

1416
01:11:34,120 --> 01:11:37,439
Speaker 2: it wasn't. There were decades, decades of war games and

1417
01:11:37,479 --> 01:11:44,559
Speaker 2: strategy games that Magic was influenced by. Like, that's just wrong, Michael, Now, hold.

1418
01:11:44,400 --> 01:11:48,040
Speaker 3: On, hold on magic, Yeah, hold on nerd any any

1419
01:11:48,760 --> 01:11:52,479
Speaker 3: put up. I I do think that like this is

1420
01:11:54,000 --> 01:11:57,200
Speaker 3: of the because because I don't play Magic the Gathering

1421
01:11:57,400 --> 01:12:01,280
Speaker 3: and I know that how he's describing it is, I was.

1422
01:12:01,160 --> 01:12:03,360
Speaker 2: Like, it's so wrong. Yeah, I think that.

1423
01:12:03,400 --> 01:12:06,680
Speaker 3: Speaks word to like a generation gap, because I think

1424
01:12:06,720 --> 01:12:09,519
Speaker 3: that you're someone who could be on the opposite side

1425
01:12:09,520 --> 01:12:13,519
Speaker 3: of SBF and equally with it. Like it's just like

1426
01:12:14,240 --> 01:12:15,120
Speaker 3: do your research.

1427
01:12:15,479 --> 01:12:16,120
Speaker 2: Just talk to it.

1428
01:12:16,760 --> 01:12:18,760
Speaker 3: Just talk to someone who plays Magic the Gathering. They

1429
01:12:18,800 --> 01:12:20,519
Speaker 3: famously love to talk about it.

1430
01:12:20,400 --> 01:12:23,080
Speaker 2: And it's it's funny because he's like he has to

1431
01:12:23,120 --> 01:12:25,320
Speaker 2: make this, Like he goes on a limb about like

1432
01:12:25,439 --> 01:12:28,280
Speaker 2: Sam Bankman Freed couldn't didn't like chess. It was too boring.

1433
01:12:28,479 --> 01:12:31,880
Speaker 2: There were too few possibilities, like you could calculate everything,

1434
01:12:31,920 --> 01:12:39,040
Speaker 2: like his computer brain wasn't amused by chess. Only Yeah,

1435
01:12:39,280 --> 01:12:42,080
Speaker 2: it's so funny. It's like, man, my friends and I

1436
01:12:42,160 --> 01:12:44,720
Speaker 2: all played Magic the Gathering and like as a spoiler,

1437
01:12:45,040 --> 01:12:47,560
Speaker 2: some people looked into Sam's like performance in League of

1438
01:12:47,680 --> 01:12:50,040
Speaker 2: Legends and the Other only he was never good at anything.

1439
01:12:50,120 --> 01:12:52,960
Speaker 2: He was not very good. He wasn't particularly bad, but

1440
01:12:52,960 --> 01:12:55,000
Speaker 2: he was not very good. And I'm gonna guess he

1441
01:12:55,120 --> 01:12:58,240
Speaker 2: was indifferent at Magic the Gathering because you know, like

1442
01:12:58,400 --> 01:13:01,160
Speaker 2: it's it is not a great it's a wonderful game,

1443
01:13:01,439 --> 01:13:05,000
Speaker 2: not a great like yardstick for your intelligence, you know, Oh,

1444
01:13:05,120 --> 01:13:06,360
Speaker 2: it's just a guard game.

1445
01:13:06,720 --> 01:13:09,800
Speaker 3: No one should be uh, I mean not, but like

1446
01:13:09,880 --> 01:13:12,360
Speaker 3: no one should be judged by their intelligence, by how

1447
01:13:12,400 --> 01:13:14,559
Speaker 3: they interact with like a beloved hobby.

1448
01:13:14,720 --> 01:13:18,880
Speaker 2: That's weird. Yeah, it's so weird, and it's like it's

1449
01:13:18,920 --> 01:13:21,559
Speaker 2: interesting because like Sam's parents, A big part of this

1450
01:13:21,600 --> 01:13:23,639
Speaker 2: section is like he comes home and he's like, I'm

1451
01:13:23,640 --> 01:13:27,000
Speaker 2: so bored, I can't I want to die, and his

1452
01:13:27,320 --> 01:13:29,040
Speaker 2: you know, his parents do what I think is the

1453
01:13:29,080 --> 01:13:31,120
Speaker 2: right thing. They lead the charge to get their school

1454
01:13:31,160 --> 01:13:33,840
Speaker 2: to add like an advanced math class, and it seems

1455
01:13:33,840 --> 01:13:35,560
Speaker 2: to have a good impact on him. He's excited to

1456
01:13:35,600 --> 01:13:37,840
Speaker 2: go to school now, and that's a good thing. But

1457
01:13:37,920 --> 01:13:40,120
Speaker 2: what we find hints of in parts of this story,

1458
01:13:40,160 --> 01:13:42,560
Speaker 2: and I don't think Lewis is able either knows it

1459
01:13:42,640 --> 01:13:45,120
Speaker 2: or is able to admit it to himself, is the

1460
01:13:45,240 --> 01:13:49,040
Speaker 2: troubling fact that once Sam's parents decide he's a math genius,

1461
01:13:49,479 --> 01:13:52,280
Speaker 2: they they don't bother to make him into a well

1462
01:13:52,360 --> 01:13:56,040
Speaker 2: rounded person. Sam grows up hating art. He thinks books

1463
01:13:56,080 --> 01:13:58,960
Speaker 2: are useless. He has this big rant he goes about like, well,

1464
01:13:59,040 --> 01:14:01,400
Speaker 2: there's no way that shape is the best author ever,

1465
01:14:01,479 --> 01:14:03,800
Speaker 2: because there have been this many billion people born since

1466
01:14:03,840 --> 01:14:05,840
Speaker 2: he was alive, and if you want to calculate the

1467
01:14:05,880 --> 01:14:08,280
Speaker 2: odds that none of them were better at writing than him,

1468
01:14:08,280 --> 01:14:11,479
Speaker 2: then there's really no reason to read Shakespeare. And it's like, well, Sam,

1469
01:14:11,520 --> 01:14:13,280
Speaker 2: the fact that you think that means that like no

1470
01:14:13,320 --> 01:14:17,479
Speaker 2: one even casually tried to teach you the humanities, because like,

1471
01:14:17,520 --> 01:14:20,200
Speaker 2: the reason you should study Shakespeare is not that he's

1472
01:14:20,200 --> 01:14:23,360
Speaker 2: the quote unquote best author ever. That doesn't exist. It's

1473
01:14:23,400 --> 01:14:25,280
Speaker 2: that there is not a day in your life or

1474
01:14:25,320 --> 01:14:27,240
Speaker 2: the life of anyone that you love that they don't

1475
01:14:27,320 --> 01:14:31,520
Speaker 2: use words and phrases Shakespeare introduced to the English language.

1476
01:14:31,560 --> 01:14:32,679
Speaker 2: That's why he's important.

1477
01:14:32,720 --> 01:14:35,479
Speaker 3: Don't get me wrong, Sam, I also don't want.

1478
01:14:35,280 --> 01:14:40,560
Speaker 5: To read a book, but I there sometimes were Sometimes

1479
01:14:40,600 --> 01:14:42,720
Speaker 5: that's just what you need to do to understand the

1480
01:14:42,760 --> 01:14:45,360
Speaker 5: world and not go to prison for forever because you're

1481
01:14:45,400 --> 01:14:46,920
Speaker 5: a gambler or just.

1482
01:14:46,920 --> 01:14:49,680
Speaker 3: Be willing to fucking google your way around it. Like

1483
01:14:49,720 --> 01:14:51,720
Speaker 3: that you're not better than Shakespeare.

1484
01:14:52,120 --> 01:14:52,360
Speaker 2: Weird.

1485
01:14:52,680 --> 01:14:55,160
Speaker 3: There is like an element of like there are certain

1486
01:14:56,200 --> 01:15:01,800
Speaker 3: the lower side of sbf L's that he takes in

1487
01:15:01,840 --> 01:15:05,200
Speaker 3: the statements he makes. He sounds like like a one

1488
01:15:05,240 --> 01:15:06,839
Speaker 3: episode Fraser character.

1489
01:15:07,160 --> 01:15:09,120
Speaker 2: Yes, you know, he sounds like.

1490
01:15:09,560 --> 01:15:13,479
Speaker 3: Freddy made a friend and he fucking sucks and.

1491
01:15:13,439 --> 01:15:14,759
Speaker 2: He's a piece as shit.

1492
01:15:15,400 --> 01:15:19,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then he even polarizes Fraser and Niles. And

1493
01:15:19,680 --> 01:15:21,439
Speaker 3: that's how you know you're in fucking trouble.

1494
01:15:21,840 --> 01:15:25,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, when Niles Niles is like, this kid's kind

1495
01:15:25,080 --> 01:15:26,200
Speaker 2: of got a fucking problem.

1496
01:15:26,439 --> 01:15:30,479
Speaker 3: This kid's incomprehensible. I wouldn't I wouldn't share a glass

1497
01:15:30,479 --> 01:15:31,559
Speaker 3: of brandy with him.

1498
01:15:31,760 --> 01:15:33,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, And man, if you know Niles, you know what

1499
01:15:34,000 --> 01:15:38,120
Speaker 2: that takes. Hey, everyone, Robert here just wanted a quick

1500
01:15:38,520 --> 01:15:41,240
Speaker 2: note that the next like the last like five or

1501
01:15:41,280 --> 01:15:44,160
Speaker 2: six minutes of this episode is all Fraser. It's all

1502
01:15:44,240 --> 01:15:46,400
Speaker 2: all all Fraser talk. Jamie and I got off on

1503
01:15:46,400 --> 01:15:48,800
Speaker 2: a tangent. There is a lot more Sam Bankman Freed

1504
01:15:48,800 --> 01:15:50,800
Speaker 2: than Part two. It's another like hour and twenty minutes,

1505
01:15:50,840 --> 01:15:54,320
Speaker 2: so plenty more on Thursday. But as heads up in

1506
01:15:54,360 --> 01:15:56,960
Speaker 2: case it's kind of confusing, we just we just wound

1507
01:15:57,040 --> 01:15:59,360
Speaker 2: up in a Fraser hole after this point. So if

1508
01:15:59,360 --> 01:16:02,160
Speaker 2: you want to hear us talk about Frasier, this is

1509
01:16:02,200 --> 01:16:08,280
Speaker 2: your chance. Speaking of David Hyde Peers, Jamie Loftus, you

1510
01:16:08,360 --> 01:16:11,200
Speaker 2: are starring in a floor show with David Hyde Peers

1511
01:16:12,400 --> 01:16:16,320
Speaker 2: based on the life of Kelsey Grammar. Actually you are

1512
01:16:16,360 --> 01:16:20,240
Speaker 2: playing Kelsey. You spent like Michael Lewis a full year

1513
01:16:20,320 --> 01:16:22,680
Speaker 2: living with him to really get his character down. What

1514
01:16:22,720 --> 01:16:23,120
Speaker 2: was that like?

1515
01:16:25,000 --> 01:16:29,160
Speaker 3: Look, it was pretty hostile. It was pretty hostile. And

1516
01:16:29,360 --> 01:16:32,360
Speaker 3: in the subsequent publishings that I've made, a lot of

1517
01:16:32,360 --> 01:16:36,639
Speaker 3: people have said that I couldn't explain the video games

1518
01:16:36,800 --> 01:16:39,640
Speaker 3: that Kelsey Grammer was playing for the year that I

1519
01:16:39,720 --> 01:16:44,040
Speaker 3: was following him around, and I resent that I was

1520
01:16:44,120 --> 01:16:47,360
Speaker 3: in the room with Kelsey while he was berating women

1521
01:16:47,479 --> 01:16:50,639
Speaker 3: on the phone. And I think that that makes him

1522
01:16:50,720 --> 01:16:52,759
Speaker 3: a genius. I think that that makes him a genius.

1523
01:16:52,800 --> 01:16:55,679
Speaker 3: And you know, do I believe he's the greatest sitcom

1524
01:16:55,720 --> 01:16:58,800
Speaker 3: actor of all time? Well, I'll keep that to myself,

1525
01:16:58,840 --> 01:17:01,400
Speaker 3: but wink wink. I think that he's kind of a

1526
01:17:01,439 --> 01:17:05,559
Speaker 3: beautiful genius and is above criticism. And if you don't

1527
01:17:05,600 --> 01:17:07,800
Speaker 3: think that he's kind of the perfect person, or if

1528
01:17:07,840 --> 01:17:10,880
Speaker 3: you even like just we read his Wikipedia page in

1529
01:17:10,920 --> 01:17:14,680
Speaker 3: four am an opinion, I beg to disagree.

1530
01:17:15,040 --> 01:17:19,720
Speaker 2: And I do love I love Kelsey Grammar stories from

1531
01:17:19,760 --> 01:17:22,240
Speaker 2: the head of Fraser because they're all like members of

1532
01:17:22,280 --> 01:17:25,439
Speaker 2: the cast being like, well, yeah, he was very like

1533
01:17:25,479 --> 01:17:28,160
Speaker 2: he came on set and he had clearly just woken

1534
01:17:28,240 --> 01:17:32,040
Speaker 2: up after vomiting up his seven martini lunch. He looked

1535
01:17:32,120 --> 01:17:34,720
Speaker 2: like he was dying. We were all worried that he

1536
01:17:34,880 --> 01:17:37,519
Speaker 2: was going to drop dead that day, and then the

1537
01:17:37,560 --> 01:17:42,080
Speaker 2: director called action and he was immediately care He was perfect,

1538
01:17:42,439 --> 01:17:42,800
Speaker 2: He was.

1539
01:17:42,760 --> 01:17:49,160
Speaker 3: Beautiful, his chest hair hurt like We'll never know I was.

1540
01:17:49,240 --> 01:17:53,040
Speaker 3: I mean, I was fixated on Fraser reruns when I

1541
01:17:53,080 --> 01:17:54,880
Speaker 3: was a kid. I would stand late to watch them.

1542
01:17:54,960 --> 01:17:56,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's one of my conference shows for sure.

1543
01:17:56,600 --> 01:18:00,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, the best. And like when I remember remember getting

1544
01:18:00,760 --> 01:18:05,000
Speaker 3: Kelsey Grammer's like memoir from the library and read that

1545
01:18:05,040 --> 01:18:07,599
Speaker 3: he broke up with his wife on the phone, and

1546
01:18:07,640 --> 01:18:09,160
Speaker 3: it may have been one of the first times that

1547
01:18:09,200 --> 01:18:13,080
Speaker 3: I was like, wow, Wow, men are scary.

1548
01:18:13,320 --> 01:18:15,200
Speaker 2: You can just do that.

1549
01:18:15,320 --> 01:18:17,640
Speaker 3: You could just be Kelsey Grammar and be evil and

1550
01:18:17,680 --> 01:18:21,000
Speaker 3: then and I will still like base my sexuality on

1551
01:18:21,200 --> 01:18:22,000
Speaker 3: you forever.

1552
01:18:22,439 --> 01:18:27,120
Speaker 2: Absolutely seem fair. Who's among us, right, ah man? But

1553
01:18:27,320 --> 01:18:30,519
Speaker 2: I will say, having watched the new Fraser show, it

1554
01:18:30,560 --> 01:18:33,479
Speaker 2: becomes very clear how much of that show's charm was

1555
01:18:33,560 --> 01:18:35,240
Speaker 2: John Mahoney and David Hyde Pierce.

1556
01:18:35,560 --> 01:18:39,000
Speaker 3: Oh well, I think tell Kelsey's doing I mean, and

1557
01:18:39,040 --> 01:18:41,120
Speaker 3: he's an evil person. He's doing his damn best.

1558
01:18:41,280 --> 01:18:43,680
Speaker 2: He is, he is perfect. He is like literally his

1559
01:18:43,760 --> 01:18:46,360
Speaker 2: voice is not changed in twenty years, which is remarkable.

1560
01:18:46,360 --> 01:18:50,360
Speaker 3: No, and he's been, you know, physically preserved well enough.

1561
01:18:50,880 --> 01:18:52,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. One of the big problems that show has is

1562
01:18:52,960 --> 01:18:56,920
Speaker 2: they've cast that kid as Niles and Daphne's son, and

1563
01:18:57,120 --> 01:18:59,240
Speaker 2: they're relying on him to hold up a lot of

1564
01:18:59,240 --> 01:19:01,360
Speaker 2: the physical con many ends that David and Hyde Pierce

1565
01:19:01,479 --> 01:19:03,599
Speaker 2: used to. And if if you are going up next

1566
01:19:03,600 --> 01:19:07,400
Speaker 2: to David Hyde Peers in like a physical comedy competition,

1567
01:19:07,600 --> 01:19:12,799
Speaker 2: you're gonna look like shit fu. David Peers like he's

1568
01:19:12,920 --> 01:19:13,960
Speaker 2: the guy. Robert.

1569
01:19:14,000 --> 01:19:16,320
Speaker 3: I thought you would love the Fraser reboot because it's

1570
01:19:16,360 --> 01:19:19,040
Speaker 3: some of the most abysmal Boston accents I've ever heard

1571
01:19:19,080 --> 01:19:20,040
Speaker 3: of my fucking Lutch.

1572
01:19:20,040 --> 01:19:23,280
Speaker 2: Don't get me wrong, I've watched every episode, some.

1573
01:19:23,240 --> 01:19:27,000
Speaker 3: Of the nastiest little I have to like pause sometimes

1574
01:19:27,080 --> 01:19:31,840
Speaker 3: and like get a water. Yeah, I like walk nearly

1575
01:19:31,880 --> 01:19:36,000
Speaker 3: that acsence. Yeah, I mean you have and I have

1576
01:19:36,280 --> 01:19:38,280
Speaker 3: conceded long ago that you've got it down.

1577
01:19:38,640 --> 01:19:41,800
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you well. Anything to plug Jamie after

1578
01:19:41,880 --> 01:19:45,640
Speaker 2: our five minute Fraser digression, Well, i'd like to.

1579
01:19:45,920 --> 01:19:47,720
Speaker 3: I guess I'd like to plug the Fraser reboot because

1580
01:19:47,720 --> 01:19:48,880
Speaker 3: I would like a second season.

1581
01:19:49,439 --> 01:19:51,839
Speaker 2: Check it out, everybody. It's not ship.

1582
01:19:52,520 --> 01:19:58,400
Speaker 3: It's on Paramount Plus. And I also just read read

1583
01:19:58,520 --> 01:20:03,519
Speaker 3: Raw Dog and follow me online. You're so inclined. And

1584
01:20:03,600 --> 01:20:06,000
Speaker 3: that's that's all I have to say. Listen to the

1585
01:20:06,000 --> 01:20:07,400
Speaker 3: Bexel Cast while you're at it. Why not?

1586
01:20:08,920 --> 01:20:14,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, what about you? Uh, that's it. I'm done.

1587
01:20:15,640 --> 01:20:18,360
Speaker 2: You're gonna find find figure out where David Hyde Pierce lives.

1588
01:20:18,439 --> 01:20:22,200
Speaker 2: You know, have a nice letter. A letter.

1589
01:20:28,680 --> 01:20:31,400
Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1590
01:20:31,720 --> 01:20:34,360
Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

1591
01:20:34,439 --> 01:20:38,360
Speaker 1: Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1592
01:20:38,479 --> 01:20:38,759
Speaker 1: Apple

1593
01:20:38,800 --> 01:20:40,800
Speaker 3: Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.