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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

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Speaker 1: day we bring you insight and analysis into the most

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Speaker 1: important legal news of the day. You can find more

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Speaker 1: episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud

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Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com Slash podcasts. The bank and

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Speaker 1: tax fraud trial of former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort

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Speaker 1: is in its second day as prosecutors start bringing in

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Speaker 1: a steady stream of witnesses. President Trump tried to distance

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Speaker 1: himself from Manafort in tweets today, as he has for months.

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Speaker 1: Here he is speaking at the White House in June

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Speaker 1: like Manafort has nothing to do with our campaign. But

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Speaker 1: I feel so. I tell you, I feel a little

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Speaker 1: badly better. They went back twelve years to get things

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Speaker 1: that he did twelve years ago. Joining me in our

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Speaker 1: New York studios is former federal prosecutor Eli Hoenicki's special

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Speaker 1: counsel at Loewenstein Sandler and executive director of the Rutgers

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Speaker 1: Institute on Secure Communities. Before we get to the trial itself,

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Speaker 1: what's going on with the Manafort tweet storm references to

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Speaker 1: al capone. It's hard to follow. The President has been

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Speaker 1: all over the map in his relationship with Paul Manafort.

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Speaker 1: Of course, when Manafort was the campaign manager, they were

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Speaker 1: close in The President vouched for him and supported him.

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Speaker 1: When Manafort got remanded a month or so ago on

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Speaker 1: witness tampering, the President said he got a raw deal.

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Speaker 1: The last week or so, you saw the President doing

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Speaker 1: what a lot of people do when someone's closing in

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Speaker 1: on them, when someone's in trouble, and say, I don't

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Speaker 1: I barely know this guy. He only worked for me

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Speaker 1: for some short time. Who is he? But then today

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Speaker 1: he seems to the President seems to have bounced back

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Speaker 1: to the original position of Oh, this poor guy's getting

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Speaker 1: getting such a raw deal. So, uh, he's all over

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Speaker 1: the map. That that is true about about these tweets

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Speaker 1: and other tweets today too. So now let's talk about

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Speaker 1: the Manafort trout. Now we know the defense. It's blame

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Speaker 1: it on the witness who's cooperating with the government. Manafort

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Speaker 1: claims his right hand man, Rick Gates, did the crime.

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Speaker 1: It's not a very original defense, but might it work.

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Speaker 1: It's quite standard. Uh, you know, blame the cooperator. It's

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Speaker 1: really the everyone did it but me defense, which is

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Speaker 1: hard to swallow when the butt me is the boss,

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Speaker 1: the top guy. And so I think I think they're

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Speaker 1: gonna have an evidence problem and they're gonna have a

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Speaker 1: common sense problem with the jury. Um, who's the guy

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Speaker 1: who built the company it was manap Who's the guy

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Speaker 1: who opened thirty bank accounts all around the world. You know,

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Speaker 1: who's the guy who had the relationships with oligarchs. Who's

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Speaker 1: the guy, most importantly who made the most money. Who's

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Speaker 1: wearing you know, the now infamous Ostrich jacket. The emphasis

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Speaker 1: on that Ostrich jacket is amazing. I think a lot

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Speaker 1: of people google the term Ostrich jacket yesterday for the

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Speaker 1: first time. But it's a hard sell. Um. And and

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Speaker 1: you know, to to say my number two did it

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Speaker 1: all is gonna be tough, and the evidence looks like

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Speaker 1: it's just not going to support it. And obviously Gates

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Speaker 1: will implicate Manipor, but it sounds like others will to

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Speaker 1: take take the first witness from yesterday, who seems like

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Speaker 1: a pretty down the middle witness. UM. He said, he said.

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Speaker 1: The one quote that I took out of his testimony

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Speaker 1: was he said Paul was in charge. Paul meaning Manafort

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Speaker 1: was in charge. UM, and beyond that, you have financial

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Speaker 1: documents showing the money going to Manafort, you have emails.

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Speaker 1: You know. One of the key allegations here is that

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Speaker 1: Manafort knew he had these foreign bank accounts and light

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Speaker 1: it light on it and his tax returns. Um, there's

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Speaker 1: information the indictment saying we have communications from his accountant

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Speaker 1: asking Paul do you have foreign bank accounts? And Manafort

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Speaker 1: said no. So I don't know how they get around that. Now.

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Speaker 1: The judge is moving this very quickly. He today Apparently

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Speaker 1: the prosecution had trouble getting the some uh photographs in

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Speaker 1: or having the jury look at them that he they

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Speaker 1: he said that he wants he doesn't want to term oligarchus.

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Speaker 1: So their witness ended up saying a very wealthy person

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Speaker 1: or a person of wealth. They seem to be taken

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Speaker 1: aback a little bit. The prosecutors by the speed at

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Speaker 1: which the judge is moving it. Yeah, so so two things.

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Speaker 1: Speed generally is the prosecutor's friend at a trial, you do,

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Speaker 1: I don't want a jury there through trial that's getting

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Speaker 1: dragged out over weeks months, you start to lose them.

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Speaker 1: You know, memory is just inherently not that long. So

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Speaker 1: when I was prosecuting cases. I wanted the case to move.

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Speaker 1: Now this case is moving at lightning speed, and I

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Speaker 1: think what we see the judge trying to do. By

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Speaker 1: by all accounts, Judge Ellis is a very strong, hands

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Speaker 1: on judge, and I think that by barring certain terms

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Speaker 1: that maybe would be inflammatory, oligarch that kind of thing. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's frustrating as a prosecutor, But I think what the

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Speaker 1: judge is trying to do is keep the focus as

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Speaker 1: narrowly as possible on the bank fraud, on the tax fraud.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't want any He wants as little as possible

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Speaker 1: of the Russian peace, you know, elections Trump. He wants

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Speaker 1: to keep all of that stuff out so we have

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Speaker 1: a clean right down to mental trial. He also, of course,

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Speaker 1: the prosecutors want to paint this lifestyle that Paul Manaford had,

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Speaker 1: which was really over the top. They spent about a

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Speaker 1: million and a half dollars on clothes and our antiques

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Speaker 1: and the houses. But he he also said something about, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, move this forward, he said, or when are

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Speaker 1: you going to start telling us about you know, I

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Speaker 1: wonder how you're going to time manifort to these moneys

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Speaker 1: after they talked about all the money, money, money, But

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Speaker 1: what's their point in talking about the money's more than

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Speaker 1: just tying him to the money's what's the kind of

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Speaker 1: picture they want to paint of him for the jury. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so there's two things. When you come across a piece

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Speaker 1: of evidence like that as a prosecutor that you know,

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Speaker 1: of course the ostrich check at the watch your first reactions.

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Speaker 1: You smile and you circle it and you make a

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Speaker 1: little happy face because he goes, Wow, the jury's gonna

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Speaker 1: hate this guy. It's obnoxious. It's offensive. They're all you know,

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Speaker 1: you assume your jurory or sort of working people. Um,

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Speaker 1: but you can't overdo it because at a certain point

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Speaker 1: it seems like you're just trying to slander the guy.

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Speaker 1: There's no there's no crime to being rich. But I

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Speaker 1: think there's a little more here to that argument. I

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Speaker 1: think what what the prosecution is trying to establish is

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Speaker 1: this is a guy who cared a lot about his money, right,

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Speaker 1: A guy who spends like that cares about his money.

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Speaker 1: There's some people who are sloppy with money or don't

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Speaker 1: really care, aren't focused on money. This guy was laser

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Speaker 1: focused on money, and I think it makes it that

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Speaker 1: much less likely that he had no idea what was

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Speaker 1: going on and his number two, Rick Gates, was sort

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Speaker 1: of stealing at all and he didn't follow the books

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Speaker 1: that closely. How much so with all the other evidence

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Speaker 1: of prosecutors have five pieces of evidence were listed, exhibits

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Speaker 1: were listed. How much is going to depend on the

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Speaker 1: credibility of Rick Gates? I mean if the if the

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Speaker 1: defense does a really good job on cross examination, how

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Speaker 1: much will that hurt the case? Yeah, Rick Gates is

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Speaker 1: going to be the most important witness in this case.

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Speaker 1: There's no question. There are some cases where you will

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Speaker 1: rise or fall on your cooperator. If the co operator

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Speaker 1: is credited, you'll win, get a conviction. I'm talking from

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Speaker 1: a prosecutor's perspective, and if the jury discredits him, you'll

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Speaker 1: have an acquittal. I actually don't think this is one

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Speaker 1: of those cases. I think there's enough other evidence, enough

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Speaker 1: documentary evidence, enough circumstantial evidence that even if the jury

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Speaker 1: is a little if he on Gates um, they can

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Speaker 1: still convict. Now, you want to make that argument in

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Speaker 1: closing as a prosecutor, but it's tricky because you don't

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Speaker 1: even want to raise the possibility they wouldn't fully credit Gates,

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Speaker 1: But but I do think even if the jury doesn't

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Speaker 1: completely by Rick gates testimony, there's still room for conviction here. Now,

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Speaker 1: the prosecution, as we know, has to get twelve out

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Speaker 1: of twelve. The defense only has to get one to

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Speaker 1: get a hung jury. What might the repercussions of a

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Speaker 1: hung jury b for the Muller investigation as a whole. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: hung jury would be devastating, It really would. Um, I've

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Speaker 1: had hung. Jerry's right. Technically, hung jury's a tie and

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Speaker 1: almost always you redo it, you retry the person. But

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Speaker 1: it would hurt here. Um, you know, you can see

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Speaker 1: what would happen if it's eleven to one. Eleven want

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Speaker 1: to convict and one doesn't. You know, the president and

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Speaker 1: everyone else who believes this is a rigged witch hunt

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Speaker 1: are going to declare victory and say shows what a

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Speaker 1: sham the Muller team is. And they couldn't even convict

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Speaker 1: and the jury rejected their theory. So uh, hung jury

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Speaker 1: is not going to be a tie. It's going to

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Speaker 1: be a win for Manaph and Trump and a loss

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Speaker 1: for Muller. Just to have about fifty seconds here, do

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Speaker 1: you know the prosecutor I know some of the prosecutors,

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Speaker 1: like some of them in action, But I don't know

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Speaker 1: these these pros I don't I know Greg Andres, who

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Speaker 1: I think is the lead in the case. Um, he

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Speaker 1: was doing organized crime cases in Brooklyn when I was

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Speaker 1: doing them in Manhattan. Look, he's the best there is. Um.

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Speaker 1: He's tenacious, he's extremely talented. He's on the short list

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Speaker 1: of guys i'd ever want prosecute me if I did

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Speaker 1: something wrong. It's great to have you here. It's always

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Speaker 1: great to have you on. That's Ellie Hoenig of Lowenstein

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Speaker 1: Sandler and executive director of the Rutgers Institute on Site

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Speaker 1: a community. Andrew Wheeler has only been leading the e

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Speaker 1: p A for three weeks, but in that time he's

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Speaker 1: made it clear that he'll be adopting much of his

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Speaker 1: predecessors Scott Pruitt's agenda, but not his headline grabbing habits.

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Speaker 1: During his first congressional testimony today, Wheeler said President Trump

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Speaker 1: gave him three tasks when he was appointed Acting Administrator.

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Speaker 1: Clean up the air, clean up the water, and provide

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Speaker 1: regulatory relief to help the economy thrive and create more

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Speaker 1: jobs for American workers. I believe we're accomplished all three

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Speaker 1: at the time. In fact, we have already made progress

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Speaker 1: on all three fronts in just the past few weeks.

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Speaker 1: Joining us is Jennifer de Loie, Bloomberg News Environment and

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Speaker 1: Energy Regulation reporter. Jennifer, you were at the hearings today

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Speaker 1: and did he explain how he's going to deregulate at

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Speaker 1: the same time as cleaning up the air and water. Well,

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Speaker 1: he talked a lot about regulatory certainty, the idea that

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Speaker 1: you can process permits more quickly um and and gives

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Speaker 1: answers to the you know, businesses that are and the

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Speaker 1: developers that are seeking permits involving water or land. So

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Speaker 1: that's really where I think the rubber meets the road,

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Speaker 1: where you have this flash, and where he is hoping

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Speaker 1: to bridge the divide. Any big headlines from him on

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Speaker 1: any important issues that you're following, absolutely, So what was

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Speaker 1: really interesting today is is, of course how heavily the

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Speaker 1: hearing focused on policy, A little bit of a change

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Speaker 1: from hearings we saw with his predecessor, Scott Krewett that

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Speaker 1: were dominated by concerns about ethics and spending. Today, uh

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Speaker 1: Andrew Wheeler indicated that he wants to reach some kind

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Speaker 1: of compromise with California, Fornia over vehicle emission standards. UH.

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Speaker 1: The Administrations is on the verge of releasing its proposal

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Speaker 1: UH to ease Obama era standards that aim to increase

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Speaker 1: fuel economy requirements and UM and greenhop gas emission requirements

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Speaker 1: for cars over the coming years, and they're going to

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Speaker 1: freeze those in the proposal. UH. The proposal also is

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Speaker 1: going to take aim at California's unique ability to regulate

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Speaker 1: emission in its own turf and UH. And what Wheeler

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Speaker 1: said today is he'd like to see a fifty states solution, UM,

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Speaker 1: some kind of compromise that that California can be on

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Speaker 1: board with and that wouldn't require him to go after

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Speaker 1: California's authority. So but jen In in the statement or

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Speaker 1: the report that's going to be unveiled, is it going

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Speaker 1: to still talk about trying to take back California's the

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Speaker 1: special power it has over emissions. Right. Our reporting indicates

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Speaker 1: that indeed, this proposal tomorrow won't UH, We'll still have

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Speaker 1: that very strong language and in it UM that it

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Speaker 1: will asserts that California's own emission rules are preempted. UM

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Speaker 1: that California shouldn't have a wave or allowing them to

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Speaker 1: regulate emissions uh in this special way, and that it

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Speaker 1: will of course take this harder approach to freezing the

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Speaker 1: Obama air standards that said wheel Are made UH pains

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Speaker 1: today to say this is just a proposal, and of

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Speaker 1: course it's the proposal that involves not just his agency,

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Speaker 1: the e p A, but is also being written with

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Speaker 1: the Department of Transportation, where you have some uh political

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Speaker 1: appointees that are pushing this harder stance, so that that

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Speaker 1: we're going to see these tensions I think play out

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Speaker 1: overcoming months. But he took pains today to stress that

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Speaker 1: this is just an opening bid and his goal as

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Speaker 1: a compromise. Is it fair to say that will Are

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Speaker 1: is auditioning for the job full time? Is it his

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Speaker 1: to lose? Oh? Absolutely, This is an audition and on

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Speaker 1: the job and on the job audition as it were. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Senator Barosso the chairman of the Environment and Public Works

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Speaker 1: Committee today so that he'd like to see Wheeler get

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Speaker 1: the job full time. Uh, it doesn't. We don't have

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Speaker 1: any indications that the President is prepared to nominate him

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Speaker 1: any time before the November elections, and this issue will

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Speaker 1: probably Linker for a while, but no question, everyone is

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Speaker 1: watching his performance from the White House to the Senate.

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Speaker 1: Jen You've written about how you know, some people might

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Speaker 1: read some of his actions as being backing off of

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Speaker 1: prue It's agenda, but they would be wrong. Explain what

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Speaker 1: his aim seems to be right. What we see with

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Speaker 1: Wheeler is really a continuation of Prue's agenda. He still

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Speaker 1: aims to ease many of the same regulations that Pruitt

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Speaker 1: targeted for revision or appeal. Uh. That includes Obama air

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Speaker 1: regulations governing greenhouse gas emissions from oil wells and from

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Speaker 1: power plants, and of course the car proposal we just

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Speaker 1: talked about. Uh. What what is different is that even

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Speaker 1: though the agenda is going to be continuing, and it

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Speaker 1: is clearly continuing in similar fashion, Wheeler is taking a

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Speaker 1: slower approach. He's a little bit more cautious. He might

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Speaker 1: be a little less aggressive in leaning into some of

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Speaker 1: these um policy changes. Uh. Some folks think that will

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Speaker 1: that he's more interested in doing a lot of the

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Speaker 1: dotting of eyes and crossing of cheese that's necessary to

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Speaker 1: ensure these rollbacks are supported and can withstand legal scrutiny. Uh.

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Speaker 1: That's a question we'll see answered later on how well

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Speaker 1: he does at that UM. But certainly he's taking a

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Speaker 1: slower and more cautious approach in enacting some of the

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Speaker 1: same reforms. Now, Willer is a former lobbyist, and he

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Speaker 1: did get a question about his ethics. What was that?

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Speaker 1: Right at the very top of the hearing, he was

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Speaker 1: asked about his willingness to recuse himself from past clients.

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Speaker 1: He's he's indicated that he will not um interact with

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Speaker 1: or be involved in decisions that directly involved past clients,

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Speaker 1: including notably um uh the coal miner Bob Murray, the

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Speaker 1: head of Murray Energy Corporation. Uh. But that really was

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Speaker 1: remarkably the only ethics question in this uh this hearing

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Speaker 1: where Franklin Previous hearings involving Prue it were dominated by

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Speaker 1: inquiries about ethics. So in general, Jen about thirty seconds

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Speaker 1: here did it see less? Did it seem less confrontational

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Speaker 1: than the hearings with Pruitt Night and Day? Absolutely less confrontational.

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Speaker 1: He was given a warm welcome, relatively speaking, by both

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Speaker 1: Democrats and Republicans, including some of Prue expiercist critics. All right,

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Speaker 1: thanks so much for that report. That's Jennifer de Loowe,

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg News Environment and Energy regulation reporter. Will have more

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Speaker 1: on those Is Wheeler hearings throughout the day. Thanks for

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Speaker 1: listening to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can subscribe and

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Speaker 1: listen to the show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and on

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Speaker 1: bloomberg dot com slash podcast. I'm June Brosso. This is

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg