1 00:00:01,639 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: On September fourteenth, twenty fourteen, twenty three year old Hannah 2 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: Witherige and twenty four year old David Miller, who'd only 3 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:12,400 Speaker 1: just met by chance on Catou, were talking at the 4 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: ac Bar. The pair, both from the UK, left the 5 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: bar together around one am. It was the last time 6 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:25,599 Speaker 1: either of them was seen alive. Early the next morning, 7 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 1: on September fifteenth, a beach cleaner found their partially clad bodies. 8 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:35,239 Speaker 1: David was floating in the water, Hannah was found on 9 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:39,880 Speaker 1: the sand, the waves lapping over her. Near the crime 10 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: scene was a pile of clothes, cigarette butts, and a 11 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: used condom. Detectives discovered a garden hoe covered in blood 12 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 1: near their bodies, and autopsy revealed that David had scratches 13 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: on his back and water in his lungs, indicating he'd drowned. 14 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 1: Hannah's body was covered in defensive wounds, bruising and scratches. 15 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 1: Their death sparked international outrage and questions about a lack 16 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: of justice on Katao. Welcome to Death Island, a production 17 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: of Katie Studios and iHeartRadio, Episode four, The Case of 18 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: Hannah Witheridge and David Miller. I'm Connor Powell, an investigative 19 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 1: journalist at Katie Studios with Stephanie Lydecker, Courtney Armstrong, Andrew 20 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: Arnow and Jeff Shane. Their bodies were found it early 21 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: this morning on the Popular Beach, not very far from 22 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: the Bungling where they're staying. They believe they were killed, 23 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:47,320 Speaker 1: probably beaten to death sometime they last night. This is 24 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: an island in shock. Two breekle murders right on the 25 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: very beaches to have drawn so many visitors here. The 26 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: case of Hannah Witheridge and David Miller is a clear 27 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 1: cut murder. But who is responsible for their deaths? This 28 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: will be the start of the most explosive case in 29 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: Catao's history. Here's Stephanie and Connor. We've seen a lot 30 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: of recordings in news clips regarding Hannah. Her family describes 31 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 1: her as beautiful and intelligent. She was a loving young 32 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:26,640 Speaker 1: woman who brought so much joy into many people's lives. 33 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:30,079 Speaker 1: In their statement, they said, quote, she was selfless in caring, 34 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: and she made every day a little bit more wonderful. 35 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 1: Our family are utterly devastated and shocked by what has 36 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: happened to our beautiful Hannah end quote. It's frankly an 37 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: unimaginable level of grief, and David Miller had just completed 38 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 1: a civil engineering course at the University of Leeds. His 39 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:49,359 Speaker 1: family in Jersey said that break in Thailand was well deserved. 40 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 1: He was due to come home to complete a master's 41 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 1: for his degree, and in the statement that they released, 42 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:58,359 Speaker 1: they said David was an artist by temperament, so talented. 43 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: He had a creative eye that he carried with him 44 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: throughout life, and in his degree he was hard working, 45 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 1: bright and conscientious with everything to look forward to. David 46 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: was very giving to his family and friends and we 47 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 1: all adored him. He will be sorely, sorely missed by 48 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: all accounts. They had their whole lives ahead of them. 49 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: So here's what we know. The details of what happened 50 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,639 Speaker 1: in the moments prior to Hannah and David's murder there's 51 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: still a little bit sketchy, but here's what we know. 52 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: On August twenty five, twenty fourteen, Hannah and David arrived 53 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 1: to the island separately. Hannah was traveling with three friends 54 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: and David was with two others. And we know that 55 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: Hannah and David met for the first time on Kotau. 56 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: While staying at the same hotel on September fourteenth, twenty fourteen, 57 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 1: Hannah and David were seeing at the ac bar, partying 58 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: and drinking with each other and other friends. They left 59 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: the bar sometime around one am together on September fifteenth, 60 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 1: that's the Monday, twenty fourteen. Hannah and David's bodies were 61 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: then found around five am in the morning. As the 62 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: investigation started to take shape, very little reliable information was 63 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: coming from investigators when the news of Hannah and David's 64 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: murders broke. Jonathan Samuels was one of the first reporters 65 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: on the ground. So I was living in Sydney. I 66 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 1: was the Australia correspondent for Sky News and I got 67 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: the phone call from the Foreign desk saying that a 68 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: couple of backpackers have been murdered on this island of 69 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 1: katow and it was all looking very serious. They were British, 70 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 1: they were young, and could I get out there as 71 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 1: soon as possible. So I pretty much got the next 72 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:40,280 Speaker 1: plane to Thailand and it's quite it's quite a convoluted 73 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: route actually to get to Coatous there's no airstrip, so 74 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: you have to get a boat, and that boat, even 75 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: the fastest one, takes three hours. But as you approach 76 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 1: you are stunned, really by the beauty of the place, 77 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: this sort of towering jungle in the middle, the beautiful 78 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: beaches around the edge, and that this crystal clear water, 79 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: the fishing boats that are bobbing away, and people in 80 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: and out of the sea. And we pulled up against 81 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 1: the pier and we got out, and I was struck 82 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: by the beauty of the place. But also straight away 83 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: we got a sense of the sadness because not far 84 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:18,239 Speaker 1: from where the boat dropped us off was the crime 85 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: scene where Hannah and David's bodies had been found. It 86 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,159 Speaker 1: was desperately sad, and I can remember it still now, 87 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: all those young backpackers from all around the world, all 88 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: sorts of nationalities, all still in a state of shock. 89 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 1: Now this was sort of thirty six forty eight hours 90 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:36,040 Speaker 1: after the bodies had been discovered, and people were still 91 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: in tears, they were hugging each other. Words spread quickly 92 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: around the island, and police were trying to determine a 93 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 1: timeline of events. Can you just give an overview of 94 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:50,479 Speaker 1: their deaths and then talk about the crime scene as 95 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: you understood it. They were on a bar. They left 96 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: very late. They walked together along Syree Beach. They were 97 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:03,160 Speaker 1: walking along the beach, which just is effectively underneath their hotel. 98 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:05,719 Speaker 1: If they had looked up that night, they probably would 99 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 1: have been able to see their own hotel rooms and 100 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:11,719 Speaker 1: the safety of their own hotel. But at some point 101 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: they were jumped, and they were very aggressively attacked. Tomstone 102 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 1: produced and directed a documentary called Murder in Paradise about 103 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:26,479 Speaker 1: the mysterious deaths Unktel Connor asked him to walk through 104 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 1: what happened. A cleaning crew had discovered Hnnah and David's 105 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:34,840 Speaker 1: bodies in the morning. Their bodies are found on the beach. 106 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:37,720 Speaker 1: One is floating in the sea in the shallows. David 107 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 1: Miller and Hannah Witheridge are violently attacked. Hannah is raped. 108 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 1: A garden home found at the scene covered in blood, 109 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: which is believed to be the murder weapon. The person 110 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 1: to raise the alarm is Monterey Watt to Wichia, a 111 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,479 Speaker 1: local businessman owned a number of businesses. His family is 112 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: very well known on the island, and he raised the 113 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: alarm and I interviewed him and he taught me through 114 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: what he saw. He took me through his horror seeing 115 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 1: Hannah with Ridge and David Miller on the beach. Connor 116 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: also spoke with Soup Buchanan, and author who wrote a 117 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: book about the deaths on Katau called The Curse of 118 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: the Turtle, The True Story of Thailand's Backpacker Murders. She 119 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 1: was living on a nearby island when Hannah and David 120 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: were murdered, and so with Hannah and David, I mean, 121 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: tell us what you know about their deaths? And was 122 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: that really shocking when you heard about it? I wasn't 123 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: shocked about that. I was shocked they were found on 124 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: Syrie Beach because I'm like, well, who would dare murder 125 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: a British couple on Twitchyan territory? You have to be 126 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 1: madder than a bag of fish to leave that kind 127 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: of mess on a Matthew your own beach. Like, forget 128 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: the police. You can pay the police. You can't leave 129 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 1: that kind of mess on warpans. I mean, like, what 130 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: the fuck. Locals and expats refer to the handful of 131 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:08,679 Speaker 1: families who control Katao as the mafia. The ta Vician 132 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: family is one of those families. Mantua Davician is the 133 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: brother of Warapan Davician, the chief of the island Mantua 134 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: controlled Sorry Beach and on the ac bar the police 135 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: where Hannah and David were last seen alive. He talked 136 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: as well about going to contact the local police. Sergeant 137 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 1: Apache Cherdouga was the first Tie officer on the scene 138 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: and spoke to the documentary filmmaker Tom Stone. The Royal 139 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 1: Tie Police opened a murder investigation. Here again Jonathan Samuel's 140 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: followed by Sue Buchanan. All. At that time there were 141 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:50,559 Speaker 1: just six police officers on the island and it was 142 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: their job to then get to the bottom and investigate 143 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: what was a very brutal attack and murder. Can you 144 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 1: describe the crinian I've covered crime scenes all over the world, 145 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 1: a huge number in the UK and Europe and elsewhere 146 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: as well, and I've never seen a crime scene as 147 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: chaotic as this was. I mean from the start we 148 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:12,839 Speaker 1: were all allowed so close. Now, normally with a crime 149 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 1: scene is a tape a long way away from where 150 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 1: the incident happened, and certainly the media aren't allowed anywhere near. 151 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 1: And yet there were photographers, there were camera crews, there 152 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 1: were journalists pretty much walking all over the site, which 153 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 1: didn't really seem to be even taped off any longer. 154 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: It may have been taped off in the initial few hours, 155 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: but when we got there, all that had pretty much 156 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:34,320 Speaker 1: gone out of the window. People were trampling across the 157 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 1: sand where the bodies had been found, People were taking photographs, 158 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: People were taking selfies, which I thought was particularly distasteful. 159 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:44,319 Speaker 1: And there wasn't really a police presence at all. I mean, 160 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: there may have been one or two police officers, but 161 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 1: they certainly weren't holding the crowds back, and straight away 162 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 1: that concerned me. All of the rescue groups in Thailand, 163 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: they have Facebook pages, right, they have Facebook groups, So 164 00:09:57,320 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 1: if you want to find out what's going on on 165 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:01,559 Speaker 1: the island, just go onto one of these rescue groups, 166 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: because they just take photographs of whatever's happened, the most gruesome, 167 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 1: disgusting photographs you could possibly imagine. And all the rescue 168 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:11,719 Speaker 1: teams do is put it on their Facebook page. So 169 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:14,199 Speaker 1: to find the crime scene pictures was nothing more than 170 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 1: just tapping into the Coat and rescue and there's all 171 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: these photographs. The photos from the crime scene are graphic. 172 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:24,959 Speaker 1: Hannah has hid several times in her head and face 173 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:29,199 Speaker 1: and had a severe injury to her skull. David had 174 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 1: been hit by a blunt object and had deep gashes 175 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 1: across his skull. He's lying in very shallow water. He's 176 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: got complete death pallor, no coloration to his extremities, no 177 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 1: coloration to his lips, his hands sticking out of the 178 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: water like a flagpole is obviously in Rigga Mortis has 179 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: been there for a while, but the next picture shows 180 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 1: the rescue team carrying him out of the water where 181 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 1: he's not got Rigga Mortis. And the ocean is so 182 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 1: full of blood. The ocean's read well as a dive instructure. 183 00:10:57,880 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 1: I know how much blood you've got to put into 184 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 1: the water for it to show up. So I'm like, 185 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: this guy's gushing with blood. You know, dead people don't bleed. 186 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 1: In fairness to the Koteil police, the crime scene was 187 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 1: a tough location to secure. David was found in water 188 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: near the rocks, and Hannah was found on the shore 189 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 1: on Sorry Beach, a beach with tons of for traffic. 190 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:23,080 Speaker 1: Let's say they did everything right. Let's say the police 191 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 1: were well trained and they immediately roped off and secured 192 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: the crime scene. Given its location. From what you saw, 193 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:33,679 Speaker 1: it's rocky, there's the ocean, the tide comes up. It's 194 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 1: a party place where there's cigarette buds everywhere, but it's 195 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 1: a place where it's well trampled. Is it even a 196 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: place that could have been properly secured with great police anyways? Well, 197 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 1: there's no question it could have been done better because 198 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 1: it was a mess. There were people taking photographs of 199 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 1: the bodies, there were people wandering around all over the place. 200 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: They didn't have enough officers to properly secure the scene. 201 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 1: Could a more professional police force have done a better job. 202 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: I think so. Yes. I think that that would have 203 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:04,679 Speaker 1: served the country of Thailand much better as well, Bearing 204 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 1: in mind that criticism they've taken. They simply did not 205 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: have the set of skills and experience to oversee something 206 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: is complicated as that. Undoubtedly ifuld have been done better, 207 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:17,440 Speaker 1: I think that police officers on the mainland would tell 208 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 1: you it could have been done better. While it's important 209 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 1: to be even handed about the six officers who were 210 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: on the island at that time, Yes, it could have 211 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:27,559 Speaker 1: been done better and they could have gathered better, more 212 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 1: credible evidence. I think the inability of the Thaire police 213 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:33,679 Speaker 1: to secure the crime scene would be seen as one 214 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 1: of the many questionable acts the police made in the 215 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: investigation into Hannah and David's deaths. There's been a lot 216 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: of questions about the professionalism of the TIE authorities on 217 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:46,959 Speaker 1: the island, the police specifically. Can you just talk a 218 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 1: little bit more, elaborate a little bit more on that. Well, 219 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:51,680 Speaker 1: for example, there was a lot of talk about the 220 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 1: DNA evidence from Hannah and David's bodies, and it transpired 221 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 1: that the DNA evidence collection or the forensic collection of 222 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: particularly cack handed, and that even puts all the forensic 223 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 1: material into an old beer box to have it transported 224 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: back to Bangkok to the main laboratory for analysis. Now, 225 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: how anyone thought that was a good idea? I have 226 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 1: no idea. I mean, surely that isn't police procedure, you know, 227 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 1: just find the nearest cardboard box, shove everything in it 228 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:24,679 Speaker 1: and hope for the best. So you know, that's just 229 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: one example I think of where the police on the 230 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 1: island were completely out of their debt. We want to 231 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: find out more about the autopsy and DNA evidence, which 232 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,839 Speaker 1: Arthur Sue Buchanan is on a search for. We'll keep 233 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 1: you updated on progress. As an Unfaulds, the crime scene 234 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:48,439 Speaker 1: was contaminated within seconds because it took the police quite 235 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 1: a long time to get there, and by then loads 236 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: of people, including montou Actuichi and have been trampling all 237 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: over it. They were comparing that DNA to DNA on 238 00:13:55,960 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 1: cigarette butts and a condom because like rapists always use condoms, right, 239 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: and a wine bottle, but then every morning the beach 240 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: is strewn with cigarette butts and bottles. And not only that, 241 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 1: they were also checking footprints because they found a suspicious 242 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 1: footprint in the sand next to Hannah's body. But Hannah's 243 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 1: feet are buried in the sand because the tide has 244 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 1: been in and gone out, so there wouldn't be any footprints. 245 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 1: It's like, what kind of Mickey Mouse show is this? 246 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 1: The fact that Mantua to vician was walking around the 247 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 1: crime scenes after reporting it to the police, was concerning 248 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 1: it was on his family's land where the crime occurred. 249 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 1: I think that in fairness to Mantuachi Witchi and what 250 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: he might have seen on the beach when he got 251 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 1: there that morning might have shocked him so badly that 252 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 1: he might necessarily have considered that this is now a 253 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: live crime scene that needs to be needs to be 254 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: kept clear. I think that he denied doing anything at all, 255 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: just to the crime scene at all. And besides, the 256 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 1: crime scene itself was pretty difficult to keep sanitized. You've 257 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 1: got you know, seawater obviously, got the tide coming in 258 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: and out, You've got waves. He always insisted that he 259 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 1: did his best. But this talks to me for a 260 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: broader point which I've already raised about infrastructure and services 261 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: that are offered on that island which just are not 262 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 1: in proportion with the activities that take place there and 263 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: the many people going there to have the time of 264 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 1: their lives. And it's unsurprising in many respects that you know, 265 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: occasionally things like this happening, that you know, the six 266 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: police officers that were on that island at the time 267 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 1: aren't really equipped for a complicated murder investigation. Jonathan echoes 268 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: this concern that the local type police for us, Uncle 269 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 1: Tao weren't trained for this kind of crime. We did 270 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 1: go along to the local police station, and I mean 271 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: I say police station, it was more of a sort 272 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: of rickety hut. It was like a beach hut really, 273 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: and there was an officer inside there and we interviewed 274 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: him and he did his best to sort of say 275 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: that everything was under control and they'd find the person 276 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 1: responsible pretty quickly. Although for me, judging by what I'd 277 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 1: seen at the crime scene, I was like, well, uncle, 278 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: I know how you're going to do this, because from 279 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 1: the limited A Mountain knowledge I've got, this seems to 280 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: be chaos. Let's stop here for a break. We'll be 281 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 1: back in a moment. Police asked two British brothers, Christopher 282 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 1: and James, not to leave Thailand. They were told they 283 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: were under watch because they had spent time with Hanna 284 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: and David prior to their deaths. The brothers willingly gave 285 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: DNA samples to tie authorities and ultimately returned to their 286 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: homeland of the UK. At this point, the Thai police 287 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: didn't have any additional leads, but you did set out 288 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: pretty quickly, I think, to search for a CCTV, right, 289 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 1: Can you explain that? Yeah, So we've been there two 290 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: or three days, and it was clear that the police 291 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: were really struggling with the investigation, that there hadn't got 292 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: any leads, there'd been no sort of formal press conference, 293 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:17,159 Speaker 1: there'd been no decent press release, there'd been no witnesses 294 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,640 Speaker 1: come forward. There was really nothing, and I was beginning 295 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 1: to struggle a little bit to know what to say 296 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 1: in my reports because there was no development. So I 297 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: went and started to do a bit of digging of 298 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:30,360 Speaker 1: my own, and I thought somehow there must be CCTV 299 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: footage of Hannah and David, because we knew that there'd 300 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:37,639 Speaker 1: been out the night before. I went into one or 301 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 1: two of the bars that we knew they'd been into, 302 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:43,159 Speaker 1: but straightaway was told in no one certain terms that 303 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 1: there was no CCTV and I shouldn't be asking questions. 304 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:49,159 Speaker 1: But then I went into one of the shops along 305 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: the seafront and it was actually a diving school Bands 306 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:54,920 Speaker 1: diving school, which is pretty prominent in the middle of 307 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: the resort, and I got chatting to a woman in 308 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:00,119 Speaker 1: there who spoke very good English, and in fact it 309 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:02,439 Speaker 1: turned out she'd been doing a bit of translation for 310 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: the police when they've been doing their investigations and questioning people. 311 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:09,200 Speaker 1: I said, look, if you've got any CCTV, I see 312 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 1: the camera on the outside, could we have a look through? 313 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:13,200 Speaker 1: And she was like, yeah, sure, happy to help. So 314 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:16,360 Speaker 1: we spent a couple of hours trawling through the CCTV 315 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 1: and eventually we found picture of David walking just a 316 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 1: few hours before he was murdered. And then we found 317 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,199 Speaker 1: picture of Hannah doing the same thing, and not together. 318 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: They were separate, but without any doubt it, but it 319 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 1: was certainly both of them. And this was amazing. It 320 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 1: was fantastic in the sense that we had the probably 321 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: the last footage of this couple alive. But also it 322 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 1: was shocking for me because here was me, fresh off 323 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 1: the fresh off the boat, finding video evidence that the 324 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:57,439 Speaker 1: police hadn't already got. I mean, surely it's the first 325 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: thing you do as a police officer and get CCTV 326 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 1: to try and get a timeline of exactly who was 327 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 1: where and at what time. Anyway, we all cast out 328 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 1: footage and we hope that maybe it would prompt people 329 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 1: to come forward and offer any information that they might have. 330 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:14,360 Speaker 1: But it gave me a real sense of just how 331 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:16,440 Speaker 1: incompetent the police were. I want to get back to 332 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:18,359 Speaker 1: the CCTV because you guys find that some of the 333 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: last pictures of Hannah and David, and then immediately the 334 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 1: police released their own sort of video right so after 335 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 1: what had been a sort of a deafening silence. Really, 336 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 1: the police did suddenly issue some CCTV. In fact, it 337 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:37,639 Speaker 1: wasn't footage, it was just a still and it was 338 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 1: of a couple the night that Hannah and David had 339 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: been murdered, and they said that this couple was Hannah 340 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 1: and David and that anyone who recognized them or whatever 341 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 1: should come forward and give them any information. But it 342 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 1: was quite clear, I mean, it was patently obvious looking 343 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:56,120 Speaker 1: at this still that it wasn't take I mean, there's 344 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:58,200 Speaker 1: no way it was David and Hannah. For a start, 345 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 1: we know from my CCTV footage that David was wearing 346 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:04,640 Speaker 1: a T shirt on the night he died. The guy 347 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: in this photo was wearing a vest. But what's more, 348 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,680 Speaker 1: the woman he was with was clearly Asian. She had 349 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:13,880 Speaker 1: dark hair, she had dark skin, and Hannah was as 350 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: blond as you can be. So straight away everyone was 351 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:19,879 Speaker 1: like scratching their chins, thinking, well, what on earth are 352 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:22,200 Speaker 1: the police doing. I mean, there must be so desperate 353 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:24,679 Speaker 1: to have some sort of lead that they just grabbed 354 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: any old photo and put it out there. And it 355 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: just added to that sort of sense that they were 356 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 1: completely at seat. We are not the best police in 357 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 1: the world, but we tried to do our best. We 358 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 1: try to bring the guestice to the victim's family. The 359 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 1: local police missteps were building and pressure was mounting internationally 360 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 1: and domestically to find the corporate or corporates told us 361 00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:00,119 Speaker 1: that an alibi and fear be it, the perpetrator is 362 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,640 Speaker 1: still out there and that the tourist industry has suffered 363 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: irreparable damage. During that week or ten days that I 364 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 1: was there, certainly, I think the police did realize pretty 365 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:12,199 Speaker 1: quickly that they were under a lot of criticism, and 366 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 1: that's when the second in command from the National Police 367 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: Force flew onto the island. He came onto the land 368 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:20,199 Speaker 1: in a helicopter and took control. Like the families of 369 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,199 Speaker 1: the victims, local people here desperately want this crying to 370 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,640 Speaker 1: be solved from the cloud, to be lifted from their island. 371 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: But after four days of false leads and frankly lacks investigation, 372 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:35,360 Speaker 1: the police admits they're nowhere near naming a suspect, let's 373 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:41,119 Speaker 1: alone finding the culprit again. Connor and Stephanie. The brutality 374 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,440 Speaker 1: of Hannah and David's death caused an international sensation. This 375 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: came as Thailand was still reeling from a military coups 376 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 1: earlier in the summer that saw a massive crackdown on 377 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 1: free speech and public descent. Let's face it, tourism is 378 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,880 Speaker 1: a hugely important, big part of Thailand. The last thing 379 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,680 Speaker 1: the TAG government wants this word spreading of these stories, 380 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,119 Speaker 1: whether that's spreading locally or even worse around the world. 381 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: Financially speaking, that affects their bottom line. Yeah, and the 382 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,399 Speaker 1: time military was in no mood to deal with an 383 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 1: international firestorm, especially one that would make TIES look bad 384 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 1: and risk losing tourism revenue, which at the time account 385 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: for about fifteen percent of their total economy. The TIE 386 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: authorities were putting a ton of work into solving these cases, 387 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 1: but in some ways it almost felt as though they 388 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,439 Speaker 1: were being performative, almost as if they were putting on 389 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,639 Speaker 1: a show, just to assure tourists that everything was safe 390 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 1: and that they were solving this case. Within days, more 391 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 1: than sixty police were sent to Kotel, including Police Lieutenant 392 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,439 Speaker 1: General Panya Mayman, who was sent from the mainland and 393 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:43,919 Speaker 1: was brought in to oversee the investigation. It was a 394 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:50,880 Speaker 1: real show of force. Here's Connor continuing his conversation with 395 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:56,160 Speaker 1: Jonathan Samuel's can you talk about what the police, particularly 396 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,439 Speaker 1: the commander who came down from Bangkok, what they were 397 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 1: sort of putting out there, what they were telling you 398 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 1: guys privately, what they were indicating publicly. So the number 399 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,919 Speaker 1: two came from Bangkok and he wanted to sort of 400 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 1: give this air that everything was in control now he 401 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 1: had landed and he'd get to the bottom of it. 402 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: And I remember actually sort of door stepping him. You know, 403 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: that's when a journalist sort of approaches somebody without a 404 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 1: formal sort of interview. And I said, now, thing's going 405 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 1: if you got anywhere, and he said, yeah, the investigation is, 406 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,160 Speaker 1: but it's proceeding well. And I said, are you close 407 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 1: to an arrest? And he sort of gave me this 408 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:31,679 Speaker 1: strange smile, stared at me, and then walked off. It 409 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,680 Speaker 1: was almost like I was being impertinent, you know, asking 410 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,640 Speaker 1: a question that everybody wanted to know. They did then 411 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 1: release some more CCTV, and this time it was footage, 412 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: and this time it really did feel like progress was 413 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 1: being made because it was of a young Asian man, 414 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 1: a scrawny looking guy, and he was running down the 415 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:56,119 Speaker 1: road away from the murder scene. He was top pless, 416 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 1: he was wearing shorts. He was clearly agitated when he 417 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 1: became nicknamed the running Man, and I think we all 418 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 1: felt at that stage, you know, finally real progress. This 419 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: could be the man. This is now the prime suspect, 420 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:16,120 Speaker 1: and the internet just went wild. Here again, Stephanie and Connor. 421 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 1: Now the running Man video is an important piece of evidence. 422 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:24,159 Speaker 1: It shows a man wearing only shorts, calmly walking towards 423 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,119 Speaker 1: the InTouch Bungalows around three forty five in the morning. 424 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 1: This is the same hotel where David and Hannah were staying. 425 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: CCTV footage was filming less than two hundred meters from 426 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: the AC Bar, where Hannah and David were drinking that 427 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: night and where they would be murdered at four forty 428 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,359 Speaker 1: eight am. Video shows the same man running in the 429 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 1: opposite direction of the Inch bungalows and back towards the Acbar. 430 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 1: This was just a few minutes before the bodies were 431 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: discovered by a beach cleaning crew. So what was this 432 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 1: running Man up to? X Pats and locals on social 433 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 1: media went wild about who the identity of this running 434 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,439 Speaker 1: man was, which is pretty major kind of just the 435 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 1: idea of their being actual video of a potential assailant. 436 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: That's a huge piece of evidence, unlike many of the 437 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: other cases that don't have that. I mean, the other 438 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:15,919 Speaker 1: thing to remember or about all of this is that 439 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,719 Speaker 1: there's a huge expact community in Thailand who've been there 440 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 1: a long time. Some are there because they're escaping all 441 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,359 Speaker 1: sorts of stuff at home. Others are there just because 442 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 1: they love the lifestyle. And there was a huge amount 443 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: of rumor and speculation on social media sites on the internet, 444 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:34,879 Speaker 1: and we were sort of keeping an eye on that, 445 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,639 Speaker 1: but also we were clearly wary that this was from 446 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,959 Speaker 1: people who weren't journalists, who may have their own motives 447 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 1: for posting stuff. One of the questions that arose during 448 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,879 Speaker 1: the online discussions was about the weapon or weapons used 449 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 1: in the slayings. Remember, Thai police originally reported that only 450 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,919 Speaker 1: a garden hall was used to murder Hannah and David. 451 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:05,439 Speaker 1: And the other crazy thing is they said, you know 452 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 1: there's one murder weapon. Well, Anna's injuries bear absolutely no 453 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:13,399 Speaker 1: resemblance to David's injuries whatsoever. He's got tiny little little 454 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,159 Speaker 1: stab wounds like a punch knife. Well, unless they'd literally 455 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: held him down and taken the corner of the hoe 456 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,440 Speaker 1: and just kind of like push it through his face. 457 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 1: There's no freaking way on God's sunny Earth they'd use 458 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: the same murder weapon. I mean, it's just not possible. 459 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 1: It's completely different murder weapons. Let's stop here for another break. 460 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 1: Could the difference in wounds on Hannah and David prove 461 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,159 Speaker 1: that more than a garden hole was used in their attack? 462 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,440 Speaker 1: Connor spoke with the man we're calling David a a 463 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: tie anti corruption activist who lives in the US. He 464 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,679 Speaker 1: led a crowdsource web effort to exposed high corruption, investigated 465 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 1: some of the murders on Katao. He had his doubts 466 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:07,119 Speaker 1: about the alibi. Let's talk about the garden hole, because 467 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 1: do you think that was the likely cause of death, 468 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 1: that that was what police said was the sole instrument 469 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 1: of death. But you always I believe that is more 470 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 1: like users to space the crown scene and why is that? 471 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 1: I don't think it's a garden hole. I think the 472 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:25,159 Speaker 1: garden hole was kind of not not strong enough. There 473 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 1: was some sort of und object behind hit the back 474 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,159 Speaker 1: of his head. But we see a lot of sharp wound, 475 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,119 Speaker 1: you know, on his neck, his shoulders and his face. 476 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: And what is it? You say, a sharp wound? Describe 477 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 1: what you think that is. So our our community believe 478 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 1: that it's kind of like a push knife, you know, 479 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 1: the one that the chap fin ring. So it's a 480 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:52,160 Speaker 1: sharp fin ring something that is common among Thai people 481 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,399 Speaker 1: on islands, or it's very common in the south. You 482 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 1: know those gangster those the street gang they like to 483 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,200 Speaker 1: use those kind of thing. And was anyone within Namsets 484 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 1: group known to have a shark tooth ring or a 485 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 1: pushpen knife? Was one big guy a norm Suck gang. 486 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:08,680 Speaker 1: He's kind of big, like he was wearing that kind 487 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:10,880 Speaker 1: of ring. And his nam Set have a history of violence, 488 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 1: not norm Suck himself, but his gang, his AC bar, 489 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,159 Speaker 1: his the DJs, the people who look at a bar, 490 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 1: his friends, yes, those people are and then his uncle. Yeah, 491 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,920 Speaker 1: they have the history of violence. Yes. One news report 492 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 1: stated that there was a fight between David and another 493 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,720 Speaker 1: man at the AC bar. There was another report that 494 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,440 Speaker 1: suggested Hannah got into an altercation with an employee at 495 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 1: the AC bar. So I'm curious and a place like Kotao, 496 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 1: would there be a lot of CCTV video, a lot 497 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 1: a lot of CCTV videos and yes there's no real 498 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 1: video of the beach, which is one of the main areas. 499 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: That's that's always what happened in Thailand, right when something's 500 00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: going on and something fishy, the CCTV always broken. That's 501 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: why the Thai peo always know it's funny, right like, yeah, 502 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 1: that leader c suddenly disappear, are broken. And actually the 503 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 1: people who worked at the c bar told me that 504 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 1: next morning he was taught to go there to take 505 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 1: after CCTV. CCTV would have incriminated, Yeah, somebody in that bar. 506 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 1: When Jonathan Samuel was in Katau investigating, he noticed that 507 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 1: some people on the island didn't seem to want him 508 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: asking questions. Didn't an you long before I realized that 509 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 1: there was a pretty nasty undercurrent underneath a sort of 510 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 1: holiday sheen. If if you scratch a little bit under 511 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 1: the surface, you do find this rather dark place. And 512 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 1: very quickly after arriving on Katau, I realized that journalists 513 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 1: word wanted, people asking questions were not liked. We were intimidated, 514 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: I think is the right word, quite often by local people. 515 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 1: If I sat with the other list and we were 516 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 1: in a cafe or in a bar or having a 517 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 1: meal or whatever. Other people would sit very close to 518 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 1: us and stare at us in a very intimidating fashion. 519 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 1: When we asked too many questions, we were told to leave. 520 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 1: We weren't given any reasons why. We were just told, 521 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 1: forcibly that we weren't welcome. And I think as a 522 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 1: journalist it was very frustrating because people didn't want to 523 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 1: talk to you. People did sort of lead you down 524 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 1: the wrong path to try and get you off the scent, 525 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 1: and there was a lot of fog, if you like. 526 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: There was a lot of fog in terms of getting 527 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: to to what really happened. And one or two the 528 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 1: expats who live on the island had sort of subtly said, look, 529 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 1: things go on on this island that we people don't 530 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 1: like to talk about the stuff that happens, and it's 531 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,719 Speaker 1: better not to dig too far. And I'm like, well, 532 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 1: I'm a journalist, you know, it's my job. And I 533 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: suppose perhaps I was a bit naive at the time. 534 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 1: I don't know, but I've never really come across that before. 535 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 1: And people talk about the mafia on the island and 536 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 1: it is I mean, it's a good word it is 537 00:30:58,160 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 1: a good word because the island is run a bit 538 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 1: in mafia, and you don't double cross the mafia. More 539 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 1: on that next time. If you have any information about 540 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 1: Hannah Witheridge and David Miller, please contact us at producers 541 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 1: at Katie dash Studios dot com. For more information and 542 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:22,720 Speaker 1: relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at Katie Underscores Studios. 543 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 1: Death Island is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Connor Powell, Andrew Arnow, 544 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 1: Jeff Shane, Chris Cacaro, Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. 545 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: Editing and sound designed by Jeff Tis. Music by Vanacore Music. 546 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 1: Death Island is a production of iHeartRadio and kat Studios. 547 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 548 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.