Speaker 1: This crowd rises to speaking what Carl slammed it out?
Speaker 1: Carl left wing free ball.
Speaker 2: Perfect, Darl.
Speaker 3: Pop beg heleft block the shot at the rim pow
Speaker 3: with the left hand and of fowl.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Chasedown Podcast, part of the Caves Media family.
Speaker 2: I'm your host Justin Rowan. The Chasedown is presented by Fubo,
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Speaker 2: The Cleveland Cavaliers have handed the Indiana Pacers their first
Speaker 2: ever home playoff loss. With Tyre's Halliburton playing, The Calves
Speaker 2: won in blowout fashion as Evan Mobley, Darius Garland, and
Speaker 2: DeAndre Hunter made their returns to the lineup, joining me
Speaker 2: today making his return of this podcast my co host
Speaker 2: Carter Rodriguez. Carter, how you doing, buddy?
Speaker 1: It's funny.
Speaker 4: I just feel like Pacers fans have to have just
Speaker 4: the absolute worst relationship with the Cleveland Cals. Like every
Speaker 4: time we're in that building, we're ripping hearts out. I
Speaker 4: still remember the Calves Pacers game I went to where
Speaker 4: the playoff game in Indy Pacers go up like thirty
Speaker 4: in the first half and Lebron Channing, Kyle Korver, Darren
Speaker 4: Williams come back and just rip their freaking hearts out.
Speaker 4: Not quite as much a drama.
Speaker 1: In this one.
Speaker 4: I felt like the Cavs kind of had this one
Speaker 4: and start to finish it.
Speaker 1: Was so it just goes to show you, like.
Speaker 4: What the baseline talent level of these guys that were
Speaker 4: missing add to the to what makes the team so dynamic.
Speaker 4: You know, Darius doesn't have an eye popping stat line
Speaker 4: by any means, nor does DeAndre, but game just feels
Speaker 4: a little different.
Speaker 1: With them out there right away.
Speaker 4: And then it felt a lot different with Evan out there,
Speaker 4: who was absolutely freaking phenomenal. Eighteen points, thirteen rebounds for assist,
Speaker 4: three steals, three blocks, just completely you know, the head
Speaker 4: of the snake of the three to two zone was phenomenal.
Speaker 4: But then it just goes to show you don't need
Speaker 4: to give Donovan Mitchell too much, like you don't need
Speaker 4: to get him too much help other than a couple
Speaker 4: catch and shoot opportunities here and there, and a couple
Speaker 4: of possessions off where he gets to be on the
Speaker 4: off the week side of the ball at another masterclass.
Speaker 4: I actually think he was better in this game than
Speaker 4: he was in Game two, even though this is my
Speaker 4: favorite Game two.
Speaker 2: I would ever, I think this is my favorite Donovan
Speaker 2: Mitchell playoff game as Cleveland Cavalier. I think he was
Speaker 2: terrific on both ends of the floor. I felt like
Speaker 2: the shots he were taking, he was taking were all
Speaker 2: the right shots. I just felt like he was in
Speaker 2: complete control of the game. And you know it once
Speaker 2: again goes to show right like he's just put in
Speaker 2: better context when this team is healthy, even Darius in
Speaker 2: a limited form, what he's able to do to get
Speaker 2: Indiana into rotation, to open up opportunities for other guys
Speaker 2: with the Dribble Drive game, what Evan Mobley is able
Speaker 2: to do to open up opportunities for other guys, Like
Speaker 2: it was just a much healthier ecosystem. And you look
Speaker 2: at that starting lineup, they outscored Indy forty six to nineteen,
Speaker 2: Like that's nuts.
Speaker 1: Felt like it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Pivot Fade has them at a plus eighty three net
Speaker 2: rating for this game. And here's here's really the wild thing.
Speaker 2: You know, you're talking about how good they look and
Speaker 2: how good this team is when they do have everybody available.
Speaker 2: I think one of the most frustrating things about this
Speaker 2: series beyond the fact that, as I said on the
Speaker 2: last podcast, the last two minute report did come out
Speaker 2: with the apology and oh, you know, you guys probably
Speaker 2: should have won, but it didn't work out. That's frustrating.
Speaker 2: But the other thing that's really frustrating is we've really
Speaker 2: felt how big the margin for error is for this
Speaker 2: Cavs team that's a really good Indiana Pacers team and
Speaker 2: the Calves, despite missing Darius up until this point, despite
Speaker 2: you know, Mobley and Hunter getting hurt in Game one,
Speaker 2: despite the fact they haven't shot thirty percent from three
Speaker 2: in a single game this series, They've had a chance
Speaker 2: to win every single one of these games. They have
Speaker 2: a nuts margin for error because this roster is so good.
Speaker 2: And despite the fact that they haven't shot thirty percent
Speaker 2: from three in a single game this series, they have
Speaker 2: a one sixteen point seven offensive rating, so almost that
Speaker 2: you know, one seventeen to one to eighteen rating that
Speaker 2: you wanted to see, you know, coming into the playoffs, like,
Speaker 2: this team went out, didn't shoot the well, they still
Speaker 2: haven't had a good shooting game, and still blew out
Speaker 2: Indy on their home court and as I said at
Speaker 2: the top of this podcast, gave them their first ever
Speaker 2: home playoff loss. With alburn Plaine like, I think it
Speaker 2: just goes to show you how deep and how good
Speaker 2: this team is, and how even though they are a
Speaker 2: team that gets up a lot of threes and you know,
Speaker 2: generates a lot of opportunities there, they are not solely
Speaker 2: reliant on three point variants to be a good offensive team.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and a lot of that comes to what Donovan's
Speaker 4: been doing. So and I do I do want to
Speaker 4: I want to stick on Donovan for a minute, yep,
Speaker 4: because not only do I think he's been you know,
Speaker 4: masterful his ability to get to the line and these
Speaker 4: are like real free throws he's earning I thought he was,
Speaker 4: as his demeanor in the fourth quarter was as important
Speaker 4: as the outcome.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 4: He goes up for yet another ram attack. He gets
Speaker 4: past Topping off the switch top and shoves him with
Speaker 4: one hand and finishes the job with the in mid
Speaker 4: air from behind. Another absolutely reckless play with no attempt
Speaker 4: on the ball from topping, really really dangerous stuff in
Speaker 4: a series where they've done these, They've made a lot
Speaker 4: of these kinds of dangerous plays. And what does Donovan
Speaker 4: do get does he writhe on the floor. No, he
Speaker 4: stands right up, pops up, and walks to the free
Speaker 4: throw line, freaking stone faced. Yep, it's his free throws,
Speaker 4: and then proceeds for the next three or four possessions
Speaker 4: to rip their freaking hearts out. He doesn't smile, he
Speaker 4: doesn't scream, he doesn't do anything. Stone faced. You're not
Speaker 4: going to get into my head. You're not going to
Speaker 4: affect me in any way. I thought that was one
Speaker 4: of the you know, We've had a couple of moments
Speaker 4: with Donovan that have really like, you know, warmed our
Speaker 4: hearts to him as a player. You know, I think
Speaker 4: about him big enough Darius after the corner three against
Speaker 4: the Orlando in Game seven, and like that level of
Speaker 4: like like f you everyone else, I'm I'm like, that's
Speaker 4: my point guard kind of energy. I feel like I'm
Speaker 4: gonna remember his face more than the plays he made,
Speaker 4: but his face straight up, Like Donovan is an expressive player,
Speaker 4: he was clearly pissed that he had been pushed in
Speaker 4: mid air, and he was like, I'm just gonna kill him. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and I'm gonna, I'm gonna take their spirit. I'm gonna
Speaker 4: I'm gonna stop this run. I'm gonna end this game
Speaker 4: right here. And I just thought that was one of
Speaker 4: the coolest moments of Donovan Mitchell's career with the Cavs
Speaker 4: so far.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And he's currently averaging forty one points per game
Speaker 2: in this series. He would be the fifth player in
Speaker 2: NBA history to average forty four a series in the
Speaker 2: first since Michael Jordan. If this were to continue, I
Speaker 2: just feel like that is the leadership, that is the composure,
Speaker 2: that is exactly what you want from your best player.
Speaker 2: And I think it illustrates basically what I think you
Speaker 2: and I have felt this entire season, where we say, yeah,
Speaker 2: like when you look at kind of you know, the
Speaker 2: on off data, when you look at the team stats overall,
Speaker 2: you know, Darius is probably the biggest driver for the offense,
Speaker 2: Like he is the one that makes everyone better. He
Speaker 2: seems to be that guy that has the most impact
Speaker 2: for the overall team's offensive health. Mobley has the most
Speaker 2: impact on the defensive end. But Donovan Mitchell is still
Speaker 2: the best player because he is that guy that has
Speaker 2: the composure, He has that leadership. He is the one
Speaker 2: that sacrifices to let both of those guys you know, emerge.
Speaker 3: And have the seasons that they've had this season.
Speaker 2: I just feel like this is the type of leadership,
Speaker 2: This is the type of composure that you've come to
Speaker 2: expect from Donovan Mitchell, and you know, highlighting that Obi
Speaker 2: play and highlighting all the other hits that he takes,
Speaker 2: and his ability to just get back up to to
Speaker 2: not lose his cool. I feel like for a team
Speaker 2: that had lost they're cool a lot of times in
Speaker 2: the past the last few years, Like if you were
Speaker 2: playing this series against Indiana two years ago, I think
Speaker 2: this team would be losing their minds because they're getting
Speaker 2: shoved every single time they're in mid air. You know,
Speaker 2: they are two hand shoves on screens, there are wind
Speaker 2: ups on almost every single play that I think they
Speaker 2: would lose their composure. I think you would see them
Speaker 2: yelling at the refs. You would see them reacting to
Speaker 2: what the Pacers are doing. And I think Mitchell is
Speaker 2: leading by example and they're not complaining. You know, India
Speaker 2: is the team that, despite being more physical, but despite
Speaker 2: you know, really kind of playing on the margins, they're
Speaker 2: the ones that are complaining and like they're.
Speaker 4: Straight up gooonery happening. I thought I was watching the
Speaker 4: other winner sport. I thought I was watching some hockey
Speaker 4: in this game.
Speaker 2: And what was while we're on that subject, what was
Speaker 2: up with like ESPN almost like making fan about James
Speaker 2: Johnson coming.
Speaker 1: And coming and hurt someone.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like it was.
Speaker 2: Like there was bloodlust from the broadcast and what is
Speaker 2: James Johnson going to do that Ben Matherin hasn't already
Speaker 2: done six times in this game.
Speaker 4: And apparently put someone in a choke hold? I don't know, man, Like,
Speaker 4: first off, someone that I've got my mentions on on
Speaker 4: Twitter and mentioned James Johnson hasn't played in a game
Speaker 4: since March tenth, like, and.
Speaker 1: I went and checked. I was like that's not true, yep.
Speaker 4: So, like, you know, putting him in with five minutes
Speaker 4: while he also had Halliburton, nim Hard and I think
Speaker 4: Mathron out there. I thought that was a real kind
Speaker 4: of statement, But like, you know, I don't know what
Speaker 4: the statement is because the Calves are the ones who
Speaker 4: you know, not really you know, there was one play
Speaker 4: where Max gave gave nim Hart a little shove and
Speaker 4: got a retaliation elbow for his trouble and drew a foul.
Speaker 4: Other than that, this has not been the Cavs seeking
Speaker 4: out this kind of aggressive context. So like I feel like,
Speaker 4: you know, like I remember when Kendrick Perkins came in
Speaker 4: to set that hard foul on to Boston's Celtics, but
Speaker 4: that was after that was a retaliation. I'm like, what
Speaker 4: are you retaliating against? And you know, with all this
Speaker 4: physicality uh from from Indy, the fact that they're that
Speaker 4: they're complaining after every play. I mean, Nie Smith, who
Speaker 4: I think has been a killer for Indy, has two
Speaker 4: hands full of DeAndre Hunter's jersey as he pulls him
Speaker 4: to the floor for and he gets caught and he's
Speaker 4: throwing an absolute fit.
Speaker 3: I will give the SPN broadcast credit for that.
Speaker 2: About the complaining about that call where they say, well,
Speaker 2: you know they do serve alcohol in the stands, it's.
Speaker 4: Nie Smith complaining that I've thrown off by And it's
Speaker 4: just like.
Speaker 3: As we are currently doing right now.
Speaker 4: It's funny on this and I don't think we should
Speaker 4: linger on this to long. Will I will say one
Speaker 4: more thing before we move on. Yeah, I got one
Speaker 4: more thing too, Okay, all right, then you proceed. I
Speaker 4: have you know, part of you wonders anytime, like you're
Speaker 4: feeling this way about like a series getting too physical,
Speaker 4: you wonder if you're playing the result a little bit
Speaker 4: in your brain, like would we really be as mad
Speaker 4: about the physicality if Evan doesn't get undercut, if DeAndre
Speaker 4: doesn't you know, hurt his thumb, And like, I do
Speaker 4: feel like this game did feel like the tipping point
Speaker 4: where like, no, this is just a lot of reckless plays.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and like in game.
Speaker 3: One, I didn't feel like that was the case.
Speaker 2: I was like, okay, Like they did hit us in
Speaker 2: mid air a couple times, but I think those are
Speaker 2: those are playoff fouls, right, Like, Hey, some Jared Allen's
Speaker 2: going up for a clean dunk. I'm going to try
Speaker 2: to make him earn it the free throw line. Still
Speaker 2: can't believe that wasn't called a foul. But you know,
Speaker 2: it's now a consistent theme where there is wind ups
Speaker 2: on all of these plays, and you know Matherin just
Speaker 2: Dex Jarrett like right. And here's my thing. If you're
Speaker 2: going to play that way, you don't, I would respect
Speaker 2: it more if you don't flop on the other end.
Speaker 2: And for you know, for shoves of players that are
Speaker 2: defenseless in mid air to not get called and then
Speaker 2: Matherin tie up Darius Garland, Garland push to free himself
Speaker 2: and Matherin flops and they reward that. I can't believe
Speaker 2: that if you're allowed to hit defenseless players, you've got
Speaker 2: to at least let someone fight to separate it. And
Speaker 2: you know, stuff like that just drives me nuts because
Speaker 2: it just it goes away from what the game is.
Speaker 2: I'm here for physicality. I like the fact that the
Speaker 2: Caves have responded to the physicality of the series. I
Speaker 2: like the fact that the Cavs physicality is related to basketball.
Speaker 2: They are killing Indy on the boards, they are killing
Speaker 2: them on the paint, they are killing them with second
Speaker 2: chance opportunities. It's why they've managed to score so much
Speaker 2: despite not shooting, you know, thirty percent from three like.
Speaker 3: I like that. I think they are responding. I think
Speaker 3: they are showing.
Speaker 2: Composure and honestly, one of the things I love about
Speaker 2: this game is I feel like I've learned something about
Speaker 2: this team. I feel like, you know, Darius, Evan and
Speaker 2: DeAndre going out there and playing hurt, the team responding
Speaker 2: to losing Game two in the fashion that they did,
Speaker 2: and coming out and playing well to start this game,
Speaker 2: to not look rattled when Indy makes their runs. When
Speaker 2: Indy cut it down to to eleven, I said in
Speaker 2: our Discord game for a chat, I was like, you
Speaker 2: know what, you just got to come out of this
Speaker 2: time out respond with an eight to two run and
Speaker 2: that's probably enough to put them away. It's exactly what
Speaker 2: they did. This team showed a lot of toughness and love.
Speaker 2: I love seeing it. I love seeing Darius playing through
Speaker 2: the pain. I love seeing Evan. You know, he was
Speaker 2: clearly laboring a little bit at times, but he was phenomenal.
Speaker 2: DeAndre was struggling to grip the ball, but I thought
Speaker 2: he made an impact off the bench. And then again
Speaker 2: the composure of Donovan Mitchell and honestly the toughness of
Speaker 2: Jared Allen as well. It's exactly what I wanted to see.
Speaker 2: And you know, I think that's something you don't learn
Speaker 2: about a group until you're in the spot. And I
Speaker 2: and It just makes me think back to a couple
Speaker 2: of years ago against the Knicks where we didn't like
Speaker 2: how that series closed out. We thought that there wasn't
Speaker 2: really that heart being shown. And this is why you
Speaker 2: have some patience with a group, and this is why
Speaker 2: you let teams go through the battles and mature and
Speaker 2: get that experience, because how you respond to those moments
Speaker 2: failure doesn't bother me. How you respond to failure and
Speaker 2: how you grow from it is the most important thing.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and like even tactically, I think they really showed
Speaker 4: up really ready for the physicality. Their press break was
Speaker 4: phenomenal in this game. Andy was really especially in the
Speaker 4: second half. I thought their press was getting more and
Speaker 4: more violent, more and more physical. You know, more plays
Speaker 4: where knee Smith was trying to ride Donovan the entire
Speaker 4: way up the floor, a few possessions where they did
Speaker 4: that to Max. I thought the Cavs did a great
Speaker 4: job finding release valves for their guys and moving off
Speaker 4: the ball quickly when a guy who wasn't a ball
Speaker 4: handler served as that release valve, a guy who the
Speaker 4: box score is not going to show they that he
Speaker 4: was helpful in this game. Sam Merrill goes one to
Speaker 4: five from three in his twenty minutes. I think I thought,
Speaker 4: I thought against the press, against pressure, he presented so
Speaker 4: many nice little shows into space to give Donovan a
Speaker 4: target and then get off the ball and find the
Speaker 4: next guy because I don't I think Sam knows he
Speaker 4: doesn't want to be dribbling against Knee Smith or nim
Speaker 4: Hard with them pressuring him in the full court. You know,
Speaker 4: there was a couple of plays where he did get
Speaker 4: the outlet, you know, looked off the pass, so they
Speaker 4: they peeled off and then he was able to get
Speaker 4: across half court. These are like the smart, unglorious plays
Speaker 4: that like help you overcome that pressure, especially when you're
Speaker 4: at a bit of a playmaking deficit. Just because Darius
Speaker 4: is laboring, because Tye isn't having a you know, he's
Speaker 4: having a nightmare series.
Speaker 1: He had another really rough game.
Speaker 4: Like if you're gonna be down one of your lead
Speaker 4: point guards and your other one is not going to
Speaker 4: be there, that's what they didn't do in game two.
Speaker 4: It's not just about like be fast so you get open,
Speaker 4: be fast and good at dribbling, like that's like that's
Speaker 4: the lazy man's press breaker. Like the smart man's press
Speaker 4: breaker is doing exactly what the Cavs did in this game,
Speaker 4: which is flashing into empty space, making yourself an obvious
Speaker 4: and clear target for the guy getting pressured or for
Speaker 4: the inbounder, and then the gaps and sealing off guys
Speaker 4: once the corner has turned. The Cavs got two or
Speaker 4: three buckets in this game, just coast to coast layups.
Speaker 4: I mean, Max got his dunk, Donovan got his three
Speaker 4: as crazy, I cannot believe he maintained his balance when
Speaker 4: he kind of threw the ball out in front of
Speaker 4: him and had to sprint to go get it, and
Speaker 4: then still got around the corner and got the wide
Speaker 4: open layup. And I think that was near the end
Speaker 4: of the third quarter. I just thought there, their composure
Speaker 4: against that pressure was really really good. And I don't
Speaker 4: know if that was a thing that they just drilled
Speaker 4: or if it was just a thing they collectively agreed,
Speaker 4: we're going to be the smart basketball players we've been
Speaker 4: all season. But I was just I think tactically offensively,
Speaker 4: that's what I was most pleased with.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think some of it's also probably just
Speaker 2: settling into the rhythms of a series, right like a
Speaker 2: you start to know what the tendencies are. You know
Speaker 2: what indeed's going to be throwing at you on every
Speaker 2: single possession. And I'm really glad that you highlight Sam
Speaker 2: because I thought of the bench players, I didn't mind
Speaker 2: what DeAndre gave them. Obviously he was having some issues
Speaker 2: gripping the ball, but I thought overall he was in
Speaker 2: that positive. I thought Sam was a positive as well.
Speaker 2: And Game one was a really tough game for him
Speaker 2: on the defensive end. I feel like his defense has
Speaker 2: been a lot better these last two games. I think
Speaker 2: he's doing a good job there. And you know, you
Speaker 2: talk about not shooting particularly well, going one of five
Speaker 2: from the field, you're a makeaway from being a forty
Speaker 2: three point shooter, right like. You know, that's that's the
Speaker 2: margins in a situation like this. So I'm not going
Speaker 2: to sit here and be like one mak or miss
Speaker 2: is the difference between you having a good game and
Speaker 2: a bad game, Right Like, I thought he played well.
Speaker 2: He just didn't shoot particularly well, but I thought his
Speaker 2: defense was really strong, did a good job. You know
Speaker 2: in the midst of that three two zone that the
Speaker 2: cast are out there, and I thought you know, the
Speaker 2: going to the three two zone was in credibly interesting.
Speaker 3: You know, we've loved that and we haven't seen it
Speaker 3: since Mobley's rookie year, but.
Speaker 1: We love that Lowry Markinen was a part of that
Speaker 1: three too, and.
Speaker 2: I thought it was really really interesting that Kenny went
Speaker 2: to it in multiple instances. One he went to you know,
Speaker 2: obviously with Mobiley as the head of snake in the
Speaker 2: three two zone, and then when it was just one big,
Speaker 2: when it was just Evan Mobley out there and Jared
Speaker 2: wasn't out there, he used DeAndre as the top of
Speaker 2: it as well. I thought that that was a really
Speaker 2: interesting wrinkle and I would expect them to go to
Speaker 2: it a more in this series. Indy's probably going to
Speaker 2: find some adjustments and they're going to have a plan
Speaker 2: of attack on the zone. But that's that's a defensive
Speaker 2: look that I feel pretty comfortable with. I think the
Speaker 2: Cats can execute that pretty well. And having both MOBILEI
Speaker 2: and DeAndre Hunter that you can use at the head
Speaker 2: of it, depending on whether or not Jared's there for
Speaker 2: the back line support. I really do like that as
Speaker 2: something that they can do for this series.
Speaker 4: It really speaks to just how smart this team is
Speaker 4: that they can do. They can run a zone they
Speaker 4: have not run all season and just.
Speaker 3: Be really good at it right away.
Speaker 4: I mean Andy was a really short circuiting Halliburton. You
Speaker 4: ad a just a non existent game. I wouldn't even
Speaker 4: say a bad game. It was like he wasn't even playing,
Speaker 4: you know, eight attempts for only one three point attempt
Speaker 4: for him, five assists, four points. You saw his decision
Speaker 4: making short circuit several plays. And I think I've always
Speaker 4: loved Mobilely at the top of that zone ever since.
Speaker 4: It was kind of you know, called out early in
Speaker 4: that and that is rookie year that that was what
Speaker 4: the Wolves like to do with KG. I think the
Speaker 4: Cavs positional size and smarts and having a Jarrett who
Speaker 4: can be at the bottom of the zone is just
Speaker 4: kind of a cheat code.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I'll be interested to see how much they go back
Speaker 4: to that and whether Indy has answers, because if there's
Speaker 4: one thing, the three two zone does a really good
Speaker 4: job of kind of cutting off those wings, those those
Speaker 4: deep corners. That's a lot of ground to cover, you know,
Speaker 4: And I'll be interesting to see if Andy tries to
Speaker 4: find their way into the corner a little more, or
Speaker 4: even just kind of tries to clear out with some
Speaker 4: Pascal post ups. It's an easier zone to post up
Speaker 4: a little bit than the two three, I think, And
Speaker 4: Pascal really hasn't had like a game this series. If
Speaker 4: you're looking for like a thing to be angsty about
Speaker 4: for the calves, like he's been fine, you know, but
Speaker 4: like I just loved they were able to I love
Speaker 4: that they were able to break that out.
Speaker 1: I love what Mobley's.
Speaker 4: Present at the top does to sight lines for the
Speaker 4: point guard. Yeah, navigating, you know, if you set screens.
Speaker 4: The nice thing about the three two is that you've
Speaker 4: just got so many bodies near the top of the
Speaker 4: near the top of that alli, Like I think I
Speaker 4: think Caylen Cooper was kind of noting that, hey, let's see,
Speaker 4: maybe they should test mobile screen navigation a little bit.
Speaker 1: Says some screens.
Speaker 4: I'm like, well, you're just going to bring someone else
Speaker 4: close by in that zone right into the action, right
Speaker 4: and now you're trying to navigate tight tight space. Like
Speaker 4: I'm not saying you can't do it. And there it's
Speaker 4: not like it's an unattackable thing and the zone can
Speaker 4: be beaten by disciplined, sharp offensive actions. But it does
Speaker 4: feel like it did a great job of short circuiting
Speaker 4: what Andy was trying to do.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it really did it.
Speaker 2: And I think one of the things that we've learned
Speaker 2: about Kenny Atkinson in this postseason is he isn't as
Speaker 2: rigid as what we saw in the regular season when
Speaker 2: it comes to what the Cavs are going to do defensively,
Speaker 2: what he does from a rotation standpoint, We've seen him,
Speaker 2: you know, give guys short leashes. We've seen him, you know,
Speaker 2: change up what they're going to do defensively. We're not
Speaker 2: as switch heavy as we were in Game one at all.
Speaker 2: We used a ton of zone in the regular season.
Speaker 2: We've seen much less of it in the playoffs. And
Speaker 2: we come into Game three and we bust out of
Speaker 2: three to two, which we haven't seen all season long. Right,
Speaker 2: I think we're getting a sense for, you know, what
Speaker 2: he's going to do in a postseason environment versus the
Speaker 2: regular season, and I think it's going to be instructive
Speaker 2: for us even going into next year in the regular
Speaker 2: season where hey, you know, the rotation, being the rotation
Speaker 2: and playing you know, shell defense and just kind of
Speaker 2: trusting it. We can kind of now more confidently say
Speaker 2: this is a regular season thing, and the approach is
Speaker 2: likely going to change in the playoffs. So I just
Speaker 2: wanted to highlight that because I know, coming into the
Speaker 2: playoffs that was one of the questions that we had
Speaker 2: and one of the things that we wanted to keep
Speaker 2: an eye on. And you know, through seven games so
Speaker 2: far of the postseason, I think we're seeing that Kenny
Speaker 2: is definitely a tinkerer.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I haven't.
Speaker 4: You know, sometimes you can be that way and it's
Speaker 4: like putting on someone else's jacket. Yep, it's a little
Speaker 4: uncom you know. Like I always use that analogy with
Speaker 4: when JB would try to play ten. He'd be like, Hey,
Speaker 4: I love that you're doing a JB, but I can
Speaker 4: tell this these ain't your clothes. Yeah, you know, like
Speaker 4: and like I that was one thing I was a
Speaker 4: little worried about. Kidding, Uh, not worried, but you know,
Speaker 4: if you're you're looking for something to be worried about,
Speaker 4: it's like, Okay, this guy's pretty been pretty rigid with
Speaker 4: his rotations and some of his philosophy stuff in the
Speaker 4: regular season. If he goes away from that, is he
Speaker 4: going to be flailing wildly for solutions. I do think
Speaker 4: for the most part, when he's made tweaks and adjustments
Speaker 4: to the rotation, be like, yeah, I get it, you know.
Speaker 2: I understand the intent. Like when it's a change up
Speaker 2: to the defensive scheme, I'm like, Okay, that's a good
Speaker 2: look to throw at them. Right when it's a change
Speaker 2: up of the rotation, I'm sitting there and being like, yeah,
Speaker 2: Tie is really struggling, and Sam's playing well, he should absolutely,
Speaker 2: you know, lap him in the rotation for this game.
Speaker 3: It's all logical.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and even Wade taking o'coro's spot rotation though Wade's
Speaker 4: jumper is unfortunately abandoning him again.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And now, like from a gravity standpoint, it's looking
Speaker 2: about the same where they're just not paying a lot
Speaker 2: of attention to the Dean out there, which is unfortunate.
Speaker 2: I think he's been playing really well defensively, and I
Speaker 2: think the length and the second chance opportunities have been
Speaker 2: there with Dean, Like I think that he's doing a
Speaker 2: good job of battling it and playing hard. That the
Speaker 2: jumper just isn't there right now.
Speaker 4: Yeah, But what I will say, because like one thing
Speaker 4: I didn't really hit on this too hard on the
Speaker 4: podcast just because, you know, it just didn't come up
Speaker 4: as much, which was that the o'coro and Wade combined
Speaker 4: for like six field goal attempts in fifty nine minutes
Speaker 4: in game two, and it's really hard to have someone
Speaker 4: eating up so much, you know, having players eat up
Speaker 4: so much of your minute share while they're not really
Speaker 4: like bending the defense at all, just by taking shots, yep,
Speaker 4: and it's just.
Speaker 3: A lot ribble.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the dynamicism just gets really limited. I think that's
Speaker 4: why Donovan was so fried at the end of a
Speaker 4: thirty four minute game because of stuff like that. And
Speaker 4: when you go down to just one player who's not
Speaker 4: shooting a lot, it's just easier. Like you look at that,
Speaker 4: you look at the attempts Mobley thirteen, Jared eleven, Darius eleven,
Speaker 4: Donovan twenty nine, Struce twelve, Hunter six, Jerome eight, Merrill five,
Speaker 4: like okay, like almost everyone's getting these shots up yep.
Speaker 4: And then so the fact that, yeah, Dean's not hidden,
Speaker 4: but you only needed to survive fourteen minutes with him
Speaker 4: and his two field goal attempts don't feel as problematic
Speaker 4: because you've got volume being soaked up all over the floor.
Speaker 4: Like even with Ty having the nightmare series that he's having,
Speaker 4: it's valuable to make.
Speaker 1: The defense think about you. Yeah, when you have the
Speaker 1: ball in your hands.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just having one player in that role is a
Speaker 2: lot easier. It does make things a whole lot easier,
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Speaker 1: Can we talk about Mad Max?
Speaker 2: Oh, you just botch my transition. I was about to say,
Speaker 2: speaking of people that make things easier, Darius Garland making
Speaker 2: his return to the lineup. I really thought I want
Speaker 2: to talk about Max. You know, Max is my favorite
Speaker 2: KAS role player of all time. He's firmly there, He's
Speaker 2: a lunatic.
Speaker 3: I love him.
Speaker 2: But I do want to talk about Darius because him
Speaker 2: he was obviously laboring. I thought he looked physically better
Speaker 2: at the start of the game. I was impressed by
Speaker 2: how he moved offensively. I thought that he was moving
Speaker 2: his feet really well, he was navigating screens. You know,
Speaker 2: Indy tried to pick on him at times, and I
Speaker 2: don't think it really bore any fruit. But what I
Speaker 2: liked about this game, and this was something I know
Speaker 2: you've brought up and I want to get your thoughts
Speaker 2: on it.
Speaker 3: For that reason.
Speaker 2: We've talked about in the past, how when Darius is
Speaker 2: playing through some stuff, sometimes when the shot is in falling,
Speaker 2: it feels like is he making an impact on the game.
Speaker 2: And I felt like he made a real impact on
Speaker 2: this game despite the shot not falling. No, I mean
Speaker 2: the box score is not good, and it just didn't
Speaker 2: matter to me. Yeah, he was very clearly a net
Speaker 2: positive out there. And you know, we've we've gotten some
Speaker 2: more clarification, you know, reporters coming out and talking about
Speaker 2: what he was, what he's been dealing with. Right, I
Speaker 2: don't think we recognized really that this was something that
Speaker 2: he was playing through, you know, the final weeks of
Speaker 2: the season. I know that he had missed the one
Speaker 2: game due to the toast brain.
Speaker 4: I remember privately being like, that's a funky injury designation.
Speaker 1: For resting someone at the end of the year.
Speaker 2: Right, So like it was something that he was playing through,
Speaker 2: And honestly, I thought he was actually playing pretty well
Speaker 2: to close out the season. Like you look at the
Speaker 2: last fifteen games, I think he was at you know,
Speaker 2: forty nine percent from the field and thirty seven percent
Speaker 2: from three. There was just a couple like really bad
Speaker 2: outlier games in the other direction. But you know, it
Speaker 2: was clearly something that he had been playing through. So
Speaker 2: the fact that reaggravating it got to a point where
Speaker 2: he couldn't play through it anymore kind of you know,
Speaker 2: give some context to the whole thing, and you can
Speaker 2: very clearly see that he was limited out there. But
Speaker 2: I like the shots that he was taking. I thought
Speaker 2: he did a good job of getting Indies defense into rotation.
Speaker 2: I think he made life easier for Donovan Mitchell and
Speaker 2: I think he makes life a lot easier for Max
Speaker 2: Strus as well, because Max.
Speaker 3: Is a secondary playmaker.
Speaker 2: Is something that's effective, right, Like those little side pick
Speaker 2: and rolls he runs with the Bigs. He has great
Speaker 2: chemistry in those spots. But him as you know, a
Speaker 2: third playmaker. You know, when the defense is keying in
Speaker 2: on Donovan, Darius is getting the defense into rotation and
Speaker 2: then he swings it to Max. I feel like that
Speaker 2: is the most optimized times for Max Strus, where you know,
Speaker 2: you're paying so much attention to those two guards, and
Speaker 2: he's really able to cook, whether it's as a playmaker
Speaker 2: or as a score or even just crashing because so
Speaker 2: much attention is being paid to the core and he's
Speaker 2: getting offensive rebounds. I just feel like he put everybody
Speaker 2: in their more natural position. And as Kenny Atkinson said
Speaker 2: after the game, this is something he's going to have
Speaker 2: to play through. If they can get fifteen to twenty
Speaker 2: minutes from Darius, that's going to be enough to make
Speaker 2: a real impact.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I mean, you you just need a little bit of
Speaker 4: a release voul for Donovan. You need someone to start plays,
Speaker 4: You need someone to feed Evan and Jarrett comfortable possessions.
Speaker 4: And like I thought, you know, I thought, I thought
Speaker 4: Ni Smith had a really hard time garden Darius. Yeah,
Speaker 4: you know, Darius was consistently able to turn the corner,
Speaker 4: keep Nee Smith penned on his back hip, get into
Speaker 4: the defense, and maintain his dribble. I just thought he
Speaker 4: was really really good in this game. Uh, and and
Speaker 4: I think, well, actually, here's.
Speaker 1: What I'll say.
Speaker 4: I don't think he was really good in this game,
Speaker 4: but what he brings is so valuable to this team
Speaker 4: that it doesn't matter, Like, like, you know, this, what
Speaker 4: he brought tonight added another layer of dynamicism to the
Speaker 4: to the offense that makes it okay that he's not
Speaker 4: moving that well and that he is taking some possessions
Speaker 4: where he's just like I turned to my wife at
Speaker 4: one point, I was like, Darius is just hanging in
Speaker 4: the corner in this possession.
Speaker 1: Ain't gonna be moving, you know.
Speaker 4: But like even then, you know, because he's such a
Speaker 4: good shooter, you still have gravity even when you're not moving,
Speaker 4: so like in you're and you're doing decoy possession. So
Speaker 4: I think it's a testament to his uh, his understanding
Speaker 4: of the sport, in his uh, in his you know,
Speaker 4: the way that he's a savant that even as limited
Speaker 4: as he was, he was still really really giving it as.
Speaker 3: All out there.
Speaker 2: And I don't think, you know, once again taking it
Speaker 2: back to two years ago, I don't think if he
Speaker 2: was in this physical condition two years ago, he could
Speaker 2: have been as effective as he was tonight, Like I
Speaker 2: thought he played better than he shot like. I like
Speaker 2: the shots that he took. I didn't feel like he
Speaker 2: was pressing. There was those two possessions in the third
Speaker 2: quarter where he got mauled, you know, driving to the basket.
Speaker 2: The one thing I'll say is, when you're in this state,
Speaker 2: don't slow down in the lane to try to draw contact.
Speaker 2: Just go up man, Like you know, Indy is looking
Speaker 2: for every opportunity to deliver that contact. You gotta you
Speaker 2: gotta change the decision making there. I understand you want
Speaker 2: to play your game, but I thought he wasn't pressing
Speaker 2: in ways that felt harmful. The shots he took were
Speaker 2: the right shots, and I thought the playmaking opportunities he
Speaker 2: generated were all meaningful. And if that's all we get,
Speaker 2: that's really helpful. I will say. It's like, that's going
Speaker 2: to be something that's nagging in my mind because I
Speaker 2: think coming into the playoffs, our ultimate goal was to
Speaker 2: contend for a championship and win a championship this season.
Speaker 2: There is so much work to be done in this series.
Speaker 2: You can't take anything for granted here. But if this
Speaker 2: is going to be something that just lingers for the
Speaker 2: rest of the playoffs, it is going to cap the
Speaker 2: Cavs ceiling this year, and like, that's going to cap
Speaker 2: my enthusiasm to some extent. But if this playoffs turns
Speaker 2: into all right, let's find out how tough this team is.
Speaker 2: Let's see if this team can come back from down
Speaker 2: oh two after losing both games at home. Let's see
Speaker 2: how they can win with a limited Darius and see
Speaker 2: if hey Evan is going to step up and give
Speaker 2: us eighteen points, thirteen rebounds forress, three steals, three blocks,
Speaker 2: Donovan's going to play out of his mind. Like, let's
Speaker 2: see that team problem solve and find out how tough
Speaker 2: they are and how far that they can go even
Speaker 2: with this team being banged up. If that's what this is,
Speaker 2: that's at least a playoff run that I can be
Speaker 2: proud of. And when I look at the effort that
Speaker 2: the Cavs gave tonight, that's an effort I can be
Speaker 2: proud of. This is a team I can be really
Speaker 2: damn proud of. This is the team that I watched
Speaker 2: all regular season wins sixty four games, that found ways
Speaker 2: to problem solve. That's that's what I care about. I
Speaker 2: am I frustrated that this is something that could potentially
Speaker 2: cap this season. Yes, but I appreciate the effort. I
Speaker 2: appreciate DeAndre, Darius and Evan all going out there and playing,
Speaker 2: you know, hurt and playing limited.
Speaker 3: Let's see what this team can do. Let's let's go
Speaker 3: win this other game in Indie.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I left this So going into this game,
Speaker 4: I was really trying to keep my expectations a little flat.
Speaker 4: Like I honestly I did that last uh pretty pretty well.
Speaker 4: I kept it pretty pretty pretty. I kept it pretty
Speaker 4: even for a least the first half. But one thing
Speaker 4: that I was really kind of like guarding myself against
Speaker 4: because I saw all all these Cavs fans correctly celebrating
Speaker 4: that all three guys were gonna play, and my kind
Speaker 4: of question was gonna be like, but can.
Speaker 3: They Yeah, I didn't know. I didn't know if it
Speaker 3: was going to be positive.
Speaker 4: Yeah, are they gonna Are they doing this because they
Speaker 4: have to and it's not gonna go well? Or are
Speaker 4: they doing this because they're actually able to go? And
Speaker 4: like a big thing I am really interested in this
Speaker 4: game for and I think not to go Debbie Downer
Speaker 4: a little bit.
Speaker 3: Here is how they respond.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a big difference between having a few days
Speaker 4: off rehabbing in really low impact environments to get yourself
Speaker 4: ready for you know, thirty five minutes of banging and
Speaker 4: running and stopping and bumping and the pain that they
Speaker 4: might be feeling right this second. You know, Donnie in
Speaker 4: his post game availability that like they got to win
Speaker 4: the recovery game.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I like that framing of like that's as big of
Speaker 4: them as part of the competition as anything. And you know,
Speaker 4: they're not on home turf to you know, they don't
Speaker 4: have all those lovely Cleveland clinic facilities and all the
Speaker 4: things that they're used to having in the comfort of
Speaker 4: home to to try to win that rehab game and
Speaker 4: that in that recovery game. But it's going to be
Speaker 4: really really important because you know, Evan I think just said,
Speaker 4: uh in his post game that he was wearing a
Speaker 4: boot after game one and that's crazy. He was moving
Speaker 4: that well. So you know, we'll see be such a
Speaker 4: fast heeler's wild, Like we'll see after the adrenaline wears
Speaker 4: off and we really get a good you know, look
Speaker 4: at how these guys recover, how well they move. But
Speaker 4: like I will say, especially the way Evan moved. Did
Speaker 4: kind of build me back up a little bit in
Speaker 4: terms of how I'm feeling, because he was just I
Speaker 4: thought he was just utterly dominant in this game. He
Speaker 4: had butter It's funny he got charged with no turnovers
Speaker 4: because he had insane butter fingers to start.
Speaker 2: It was like rebounds that went out out of bounce.
Speaker 4: Had a pass too, I think, but either way, you know,
Speaker 4: I just thought outside of that, like first two three
Speaker 4: minutes of butterfingers, he was dominant. He was a big
Speaker 4: reason why Indy only scored one hundred and four points
Speaker 4: in this game, and if he's able to in I
Speaker 4: thought his offensive game was really really strong as well.
Speaker 4: His finishing, his rim attacks, his ability to draw fouls
Speaker 4: all really really strong. The extra ball handling was so
Speaker 4: noticeable for this team against the Indie pressure. I thought
Speaker 4: he was just phenomenal on both ends. And that's a
Speaker 4: really good box score eighteen thirteen four to three three.
Speaker 1: I think he played better than it.
Speaker 2: I think so too, And you know he's going to
Speaker 2: be an All NBA player, which by virtue of that,
Speaker 2: he's a top fifteen player, and I felt like he
Speaker 2: was a top fifteen player tonight. I feel like he
Speaker 2: has been a top fifteen player throughout these playoffs and
Speaker 2: you know, as discouraging as it is to see Darius
Speaker 2: not be himself and you know what that means for
Speaker 2: the team, And I'm with you, like I'm worried about
Speaker 2: what it's going to look like for Game four.
Speaker 3: The excitement of.
Speaker 2: Evan Mobley is just like that, that's booying me. And
Speaker 2: I said, you know in our private chats, is like,
Speaker 2: I don't think I'm going to get like all the
Speaker 2: way fired up unless you know, they come back and
Speaker 2: they make it to two in this series when they
Speaker 2: were up like nineteen to five hours already all the
Speaker 2: way in, Like I don't know who I was kidding.
Speaker 2: I was lying to myself. I'm an excitable boy. I
Speaker 2: always will be. But you know, like as I said,
Speaker 2: if this playoffs turns into all right, what can Donovan
Speaker 2: and Evan you know, do with a very good team
Speaker 2: with very good supporting cast, with Jared Allen who you know, again,
Speaker 2: we get so excited about everybody else. We don't talk
Speaker 2: about Jared Allen getting nineteen and twelve like he was
Speaker 2: awesome again tonight. What can this team do even if
Speaker 2: it is you know, a limited Darius. You know, I
Speaker 2: think you and I are both on the same page
Speaker 2: that we hope that this team does get you know,
Speaker 2: the as long of a window as it looks like
Speaker 2: they may have, that this core continues to get chances
Speaker 2: to grow together. You know, maybe there's going to be
Speaker 2: future playoff series where Donovan's a little banged up and
Speaker 2: Darius and Evan are going to be the ones that
Speaker 2: need to step up like that. That is the ebbs
Speaker 2: and flows of a team's lifespan together, you know it,
Speaker 2: As I said, if if what we get out of
Speaker 2: this is a performance that I can be proud of
Speaker 2: that I feel like, hey, this team worked its ass off,
Speaker 2: We got everything that everything that they had within them,
Speaker 2: they left it out on the floor. They worked as
Speaker 2: hard as they could to come back and make this
Speaker 2: a series. That's ultimately enough for me. And you know,
Speaker 2: I'm going to be frustrated because I look, you know,
Speaker 2: at the other side of the bracket and I see
Speaker 2: Boston lose both home games as well, and I'm sitting
Speaker 2: here being like they are just as vulnerable as I
Speaker 2: thought they were. This is exactly what I thought the
Speaker 2: type of thing that could happen because that New York
Speaker 2: team is not as good as the Sandiana team they like.
Speaker 2: You know, if the first round series is called properly,
Speaker 2: that could very easily be Detroit. But you know, I
Speaker 2: have to put that aside and just look at Okay,
Speaker 2: this is what the situation is. And for me right now,
Speaker 2: I'm proud to be a Cash fan. I'm proud so
Speaker 2: to watch the fight of this team, and I'm interested
Speaker 2: to see what they do in game four.
Speaker 4: You just put a really excellent bow on this podcast.
Speaker 4: But can I ask one more tactical question before we go?
Speaker 3: Sure?
Speaker 4: Sorry, ty Jerome. Another struggle Bus game doesn't really get
Speaker 4: much run in the second half, and you know it,
Speaker 4: it kind of felt like Kenny was down to eight
Speaker 4: Dean DeAndre Sam do you start? Do you give Tie
Speaker 4: his normal shift in the first half in game four?
Speaker 3: Yep, yep, I do too.
Speaker 4: I don't I think you need it because you're not
Speaker 4: gonna don't.
Speaker 1: Darius's toe isn't.
Speaker 4: Just gonna heal overnight, So you need Tye to find himself,
Speaker 4: if not now then later, and I and I just
Speaker 4: I'm not ready. I would do exactly what Kenny did
Speaker 4: in this game. If it's not going well, pay it
Speaker 4: down in the second half.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 2: And you know, I think the same thing goes for Sam,
Speaker 2: the same thing goes for Dean, right, Like you play
Speaker 2: a deeper rotation in the first half and then you
Speaker 2: figure out who your eight is for the second half.
Speaker 2: I think it's just important. He's been too valuable of
Speaker 2: a contributor to write off that as a possibility, particularly
Speaker 2: when you are working through some stuff. You know, it's
Speaker 2: very tough right now, but I don't think that this
Speaker 2: is something that he can't overcome. I think there is
Speaker 2: value in letting guys try to problem solve, to bounce
Speaker 2: back from, you know, the these slumps. It's not like
Speaker 2: he didn't have slumps throughout the season as well. You know,
Speaker 2: just just let them work through it and see if
Speaker 2: he can give you a lift, because we are still
Speaker 2: due for a good shooting game, and when we have
Speaker 2: good shooting games, Ty Jerome is usually a pretty.
Speaker 3: Big part of that.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, brother, Sorry, sorry, sorry to wrap up your wonderful
Speaker 4: little bow. I want, I really wanted to get that
Speaker 4: question before we say goodbye.
Speaker 2: It's fine, it's a good question and need to be
Speaker 2: in the podcast, So thank thank you for doing that,
Speaker 2: and a big thanks to our listeners for tuning in
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