WEBVTT - Will 2026 Be The ‘ChatGPT Moment’ For The Brain-Computer Interface - The Story 0:00:14.250 --> 0:00:18.010 Welcome to Tech Stuff. I'm Oswald Loshin. Back in 2024, 0:00:18.010 --> 0:00:23.030 a 71-year-old Parkinson's patient named Jeffrey Kiefer underwent brain surgery. 0:00:23.530 --> 0:00:27.890 While his skull was open, surgeons temporarily placed an experimental 0:00:28.130 --> 0:00:32.400 brain-computer interface directly onto his brain to record neural activity, 0:00:32.860 --> 0:00:35.640 a key step towards technology that could one day allow 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:40.170 paralyzed individuals to control computers using only their thoughts. The 0:00:40.200 --> 0:00:43.820 following year, Precision Neuroscience, the startup behind that device, reached 0:00:43.840 --> 0:00:48.739 a big milestone, FDA clearance for 30-day human trials. As 0:00:48.780 --> 0:00:52.760 of this year, testing has expanded to nearly 100 participants 0:00:52.940 --> 0:00:57.350 across 18 major U.S. academic medical centers. Joining me today 0:00:57.370 --> 0:01:00.350 to discuss how this technology works and where it's heading 0:01:00.850 --> 0:01:05.470 is Michael Maker, CEO of Precision Neuroscience. Michael, welcome to 0:01:05.510 --> 0:01:05.910 Tech Stuff. 0:01:06.130 --> 0:01:06.910 Thanks so much for having me. 0:01:06.910 --> 0:01:07.809 What are you building? 0:01:08.850 --> 0:01:12.330 We're building, as you mentioned, a brain-computer interface. That is 0:01:12.350 --> 0:01:15.030 a system that I think is best thought of as 0:01:15.090 --> 0:01:18.640 a communication tool. It creates a communication link between the 0:01:18.690 --> 0:01:23.120 brain and computers. The first use of that link is 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:26.640 to enable people to control computers with their thoughts, people 0:01:26.680 --> 0:01:29.260 who have lost ability to move their arms and hands 0:01:29.280 --> 0:01:31.900 as a result of, you know, paralysis due to spinal 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:35.240 cord injury and certain diseases. But we think the applications 0:01:35.420 --> 0:01:39.480 of this communication link effectively between human and artificial intelligence 0:01:39.980 --> 0:01:41.140 go way beyond paralysis. 0:01:41.760 --> 0:01:43.000 So they said everyone might have one? 0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:46.290 I think the future is hard to predict. We see 0:01:46.450 --> 0:01:51.470 a path to having major impact clinically and potentially eventually 0:01:51.530 --> 0:01:54.770 beyond that. But we're really focused today on making a 0:01:54.790 --> 0:01:57.080 meaningful positive difference medically and clinically. 0:01:57.600 --> 0:02:00.870 Talk about that journey from working with Jeffrey Kiefer to 0:02:00.890 --> 0:02:03.160 the FDA clearance to the 100 participants? What does that 0:02:03.260 --> 0:02:05.880 mean that you get to work with 100 people now? 0:02:06.660 --> 0:02:10.000 Taking a step back, I think that it's important to 0:02:10.060 --> 0:02:15.360 understand medical technology requires people like Jeffrey Kiefer, who are 0:02:15.419 --> 0:02:20.310 really selfless in offering themselves to the advancement of medical technology. 0:02:20.990 --> 0:02:23.609 The reason that he was able to get an implant 0:02:23.810 --> 0:02:27.530 of this kind is that our system is is designed 0:02:27.550 --> 0:02:31.090 to be totally safe, it is reversible, and it is non-damaging. 0:02:32.230 --> 0:02:34.930 And because of that, we were able to get into 0:02:34.970 --> 0:02:37.890 the clinic and start implanting patients within two years, which 0:02:37.950 --> 0:02:41.560 is a very, very expedited path. And our first FDA clearance, 0:02:41.590 --> 0:02:45.310 as you mentioned, within about 40 years of founding. That 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:47.980 is really a function of the fact that our system 0:02:48.100 --> 0:02:52.120 is able to be explanted safely without having done damage 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:52.700 to the brain. 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:54.220 Explanting means you can take it out. 0:02:54.300 --> 0:02:56.400 That means you can take it out. Yeah. And I 0:02:56.440 --> 0:02:59.700 think that that's an incredibly important feature. Really, when it 0:02:59.760 --> 0:03:02.730 comes to patient adoption, you know, people want a system 0:03:02.770 --> 0:03:05.210 that they know if they, for whatever reason, don't want 0:03:05.650 --> 0:03:09.070 can be removed safely. And also for upgrades, you know, 0:03:09.090 --> 0:03:12.030 this is a technology that is in the early stages 0:03:12.150 --> 0:03:15.690 of its development. I think people rightfully want a system 0:03:15.730 --> 0:03:17.560 that's going to be able to be upgraded over time 0:03:17.810 --> 0:03:19.240 as functionality improves. 0:03:20.300 --> 0:03:22.160 And who founded the company? What was their vision? 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:26.669 So I co-founded the company with Ben Rappaport. Ben is 0:03:27.330 --> 0:03:32.170 really ideally suited to pioneer this industry. He is a neurosurgeon. 0:03:32.690 --> 0:03:35.930 He also has a PhD from MIT in electrical engineering. 0:03:36.050 --> 0:03:38.070 That is not by accident, you know, getting both a 0:03:38.330 --> 0:03:41.880 medical degree and a PhD in electrical engineering. The brain 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:45.420 is an electrical system. So every thought you've ever had, 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:49.800 every idea, every memory, every intention, there is a physical 0:03:50.020 --> 0:03:52.060 representation of of those thoughts. 0:03:52.940 --> 0:03:55.520 By the way, it's a remarkable coincidence that both computers 0:03:55.560 --> 0:03:58.920 and the brain work on electricity. When did people start 0:03:58.940 --> 0:04:00.840 to understand what that could mean? 0:04:00.860 --> 0:04:03.440 A hundred years ago, I think, is when we started 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:06.560 to understand the electrical nature of the brain. I think 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:09.200 that for a long time, these two fields have been 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:12.280 quite disparate. I think we're actually entering a period, and 0:04:12.300 --> 0:04:14.660 I'm sure we're going to talk about this, where there 0:04:14.740 --> 0:04:18.760 is really a convergence of neuroscience and artificial intelligence that 0:04:18.800 --> 0:04:21.680 has the potential to be impactful really on both sides 0:04:21.720 --> 0:04:22.159 of the coin. 0:04:22.580 --> 0:04:25.740 But your co-founder, in a sense, this is a substantiation 0:04:25.900 --> 0:04:30.700 or a harvest of decades of academic research and vision. 0:04:30.820 --> 0:04:34.530 That's exactly right. I mean, he really was there at 0:04:34.570 --> 0:04:38.349 the birth of this industry, which initially happened like so 0:04:38.410 --> 0:04:41.750 much in terms of sort of breakthrough advances in academia initially. 0:04:42.290 --> 0:04:46.250 where the first proofs of concept that you could record 0:04:46.290 --> 0:04:49.740 and decode electrical activity in order to drive a function 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:53.740 on a computer actually happened in 2004, so over 20 0:04:53.740 --> 0:04:57.620 years ago. And the industry has been developing really in 0:04:57.760 --> 0:05:03.159 academic settings with prototype devices. Ben wanted to be involved 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:06.560 in that from the very beginning. He studied electrical engineering 0:05:06.779 --> 0:05:09.240 and became a neurosurgeon because that's the perfect combination of 0:05:09.279 --> 0:05:11.930 skills to pioneer this industry. He was also one of 0:05:11.950 --> 0:05:15.340 the co-founders of Neuralink with Elon Musk. And after a 0:05:15.620 --> 0:05:18.540 few years at Neuralink, he left because of the direction 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:21.080 that they went in. And he and I co-founded Precision 0:05:21.120 --> 0:05:24.320 in 2021. So what was the direction they went in 0:05:24.339 --> 0:05:28.200 that he objected to? So the initial work in the space, again, 0:05:28.339 --> 0:05:30.750 going back to sort of the academic proofs of concept, 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:37.589 involved electrodes to record and stimulate the brain that penetrate 0:05:37.650 --> 0:05:38.270 into the brain. 0:05:38.370 --> 0:05:38.550 Right. 0:05:39.150 --> 0:05:41.990 And when you penetrate into the brain... a few things happen. 0:05:42.430 --> 0:05:45.330 First of all, you kill neurons. So there is damage 0:05:45.730 --> 0:05:49.130 that is irreversible. There's also a response from the brain. 0:05:49.770 --> 0:05:51.190 The body doesn't like it when you put a foreign 0:05:51.250 --> 0:05:54.830 object into it. And so there's something that's called gliosis, 0:05:54.890 --> 0:05:58.210 which is effectively sort of scarring around the foreign body. 0:05:59.130 --> 0:06:03.180 Over time, if you think about creating an interface between 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:06.940 the brain and technology and compute, you really want a 0:06:06.980 --> 0:06:09.760 system that's going to be able to scale. that's going 0:06:09.790 --> 0:06:13.110 to be able to start in a small discrete area 0:06:13.130 --> 0:06:16.490 of the brain, but over time expand because different areas 0:06:16.510 --> 0:06:18.830 of the brain are responsible for different functions. And so 0:06:18.910 --> 0:06:22.570 to unlock greater and greater performance, you need a system 0:06:22.589 --> 0:06:24.789 that's going to be able to expand to multiple regions 0:06:24.810 --> 0:06:27.230 of the brain at once. If you have to poke 0:06:27.290 --> 0:06:31.110 holes in the brain to do that, that just, there's a, 0:06:31.150 --> 0:06:34.460 there's a ceiling to the scalability of such a system. 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:38.240 There's also a patient adoption and surgeon adoption issue. You know, 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:42.200 When you're talking about any surgical intervention, there is a 0:06:42.779 --> 0:06:47.040 necessary weighing of risk and benefit. And you want that 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:50.260 trade-off to be as favorable as possible. 0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:53.980 When you're talking about this idea of reaching all the 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:56.080 regions of the brain, what came into my brain was 0:06:56.100 --> 0:06:58.700 the image of a metal helmet underneath my skull. Is 0:06:58.720 --> 0:06:59.539 that a crazy image? 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:02.140 Metal helmet is not how we would describe it. So 0:07:02.180 --> 0:07:05.940 what we've developed is an ultra-thin film. Think about it 0:07:06.050 --> 0:07:10.920 like a piece of saran wrap. in your language, maybe sellotape? 0:07:11.100 --> 0:07:12.460 Yeah, I know, cling film. 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:13.360 Cling film. Cling film. 0:07:13.820 --> 0:07:15.750 Sellotape is something, yeah. 0:07:16.450 --> 0:07:21.430 That basically covers the brain in a super, super gentle, 0:07:21.630 --> 0:07:26.130 thin film with thousands and eventually hundreds of thousands of 0:07:26.310 --> 0:07:29.070 electrodes on it. It does so in a way that 0:07:29.180 --> 0:07:31.940 is fundamentally sort of non-damaging. 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:36.820 What are the sort of planes of competition, let's say? 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:39.860 Because obviously Neuralink you know, because of Elon, probably because 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:42.240 of first mover is the most famous player in the space. 0:07:42.810 --> 0:07:46.250 There's you, there's maybe two other kind of household names 0:07:46.310 --> 0:07:48.330 of people who know the industry, right? Like, are you 0:07:48.410 --> 0:07:51.490 all chasing exactly the same holy grail or are there 0:07:51.510 --> 0:07:53.630 different planes of competition, so to speak? 0:07:53.810 --> 0:07:56.970 I think there are absolutely different planes of competition that 0:07:57.010 --> 0:07:59.830 will emerge over time. So for the time being, you're right. 0:08:00.030 --> 0:08:03.070 Everybody is focused on this initial question really around the 0:08:03.090 --> 0:08:06.090 hardware of how do you get electrodes into or onto 0:08:06.110 --> 0:08:08.300 the brain in a way that's safe and scalable. And 0:08:08.520 --> 0:08:11.920 our system, unlike Neuralink's, which is penetrating into the brain 0:08:11.940 --> 0:08:15.040 because they've built on that academic work that sort of 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:20.060 founded the industry, ours creates a non-damaging thin film. Others 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:24.250 go through the vasculature. Some folks are trying to use ultrasound. 0:08:24.790 --> 0:08:29.290 I think that there will emerge clear areas where certain 0:08:29.330 --> 0:08:34.270 approaches are better than others, and companies will necessarily focus 0:08:34.390 --> 0:08:38.600 where their systems are sort of optimized. That said, We've 0:08:38.900 --> 0:08:41.420 picked the approach that we've picked because we think it 0:08:41.940 --> 0:08:45.239 is really the only one that achieves ultra high performance 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:48.450 for all of the functions of BCI that exist today, 0:08:48.470 --> 0:08:52.910 but without some of the drawbacks around penetration and damage 0:08:53.330 --> 0:08:55.290 that some of the competing products entail. 0:08:55.970 --> 0:08:59.069 So you mentioned saran wrap. What does this thing physically 0:08:59.110 --> 0:09:01.050 look like? How big is it? And how do you 0:09:01.110 --> 0:09:01.910 get it into somebody's head? 0:09:02.740 --> 0:09:07.760 We manufacture the system that is about 20 microns thick. 0:09:08.100 --> 0:09:10.219 So that is about a fifth the width of a 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:13.610 human hair. So super thin. And it's about one and 0:09:13.640 --> 0:09:16.890 a half square centimeters in terms of surface area. So 0:09:16.990 --> 0:09:20.310 think about it like a postage size stamp. We deposit 0:09:20.309 --> 0:09:24.469 1,024 tiny platinum electrodes on that. These electrodes are 50 0:09:24.470 --> 0:09:27.350 microns in diameter. That's the size of a neuron. So 0:09:27.730 --> 0:09:31.110 we're really speaking to the brain at its own natural scale. 0:09:31.700 --> 0:09:35.940 The only way to manufacture at that scale is to 0:09:35.980 --> 0:09:40.740 do so using manufacturing techniques borrowed from semiconductor manufacturing. So 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:43.800 we use photolithography to make these devices. We're the first 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:47.439 company with an FDA-cleared device that is photolithographic. 0:09:47.820 --> 0:09:51.950 Is ASML the same providers as the chip industry? We're not. 0:09:52.190 --> 0:09:54.970 So those guys are at the nanoscale. We're at the 0:09:55.010 --> 0:09:59.490 micron scale. But the concept is the same, where basically 0:09:59.570 --> 0:10:03.319 to create... a breakthrough, in this case in medical technology, 0:10:03.340 --> 0:10:05.140 you really have to think about it in a different 0:10:05.179 --> 0:10:08.890 way and take techniques that have been pioneered elsewhere. In 0:10:08.950 --> 0:10:12.670 our case, that's required actually buying and retrofitting a fab, 0:10:13.470 --> 0:10:15.369 which we own in Texas. We have 20 people on 0:10:15.390 --> 0:10:16.910 the ground who do. 0:10:17.010 --> 0:10:18.770 Which used to be used to build chips is now 0:10:18.809 --> 0:10:19.569 being used to build your. 0:10:19.870 --> 0:10:22.450 That's right. And we have a level five clean room. 0:10:22.910 --> 0:10:26.120 All of this is necessary. It's capital intensive. It's resource intensive. 0:10:26.580 --> 0:10:29.660 But there is no supply chain that exists to do 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:31.600 this kind of work because it's so pioneering. 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:35.820 How do you put it inside somebody's head? And is 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:38.370 the vision to make them much bigger ultimately? Yeah. And 0:10:38.570 --> 0:10:39.380 how do you know where to put it? 0:10:39.530 --> 0:10:41.429 First of all, I don't put them in anybody's brain. 0:10:42.770 --> 0:10:45.620 I will assure you. But we're now working at 18 0:10:45.620 --> 0:10:47.470 of the best hospitals in the United States, which by 0:10:47.490 --> 0:10:50.490 the way, is multiples of the number of any other company. 0:10:51.010 --> 0:10:53.949 Part of that is enabled by our FDA clearance, which 0:10:54.010 --> 0:10:57.510 also is a first. And we're working with neurosurgeons at 0:10:57.710 --> 0:11:01.750 these institutions who are absolutely best in class. They are 0:11:01.910 --> 0:11:05.210 using the system in different ways. And part of the 0:11:05.350 --> 0:11:07.989 benefit of a system that does not penetrate into the 0:11:08.030 --> 0:11:10.010 brain and does not damage the brain is that you 0:11:10.030 --> 0:11:13.580 can explore. You can put it. in the area that 0:11:13.620 --> 0:11:17.559 controls the motor part of the brain. So the part 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:19.719 of the brain that controls the arms and the fingers 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:22.460 and the hands and use that to control a computer 0:11:22.480 --> 0:11:24.820 cursor just with thoughts, which we've done. But you can 0:11:24.940 --> 0:11:27.360 also put it in areas of the brain that are 0:11:27.540 --> 0:11:32.179 much less well characterized. We have gone to somatosensory cortex 0:11:32.260 --> 0:11:34.870 and prefrontal cortex. We've gone to the brainstem. We've actually 0:11:35.190 --> 0:11:38.450 even gone to the spinal cord. That is the only 0:11:38.530 --> 0:11:41.270 way that you can explore in that manner and you 0:11:41.290 --> 0:11:44.990 can enable academics and clinicians to explore in that manner 0:11:45.170 --> 0:11:49.590 is if your system is fundamentally non-damaging and reversible. So 0:11:49.630 --> 0:11:52.950 we think this is a huge advantage for precision, but 0:11:53.050 --> 0:11:54.719 also for the field, because I think it's going to 0:11:54.860 --> 0:11:58.600 unlock understanding that previously has just not been possible. 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:01.020 What are you finding today by going to those places? 0:12:01.420 --> 0:12:03.380 I think we're at the beginning of this journey. I 0:12:03.420 --> 0:12:07.260 think a lot of our efforts up until now have 0:12:07.340 --> 0:12:09.290 been focused on that motor part of the brain. So 0:12:09.309 --> 0:12:11.130 you asked the earlier question, is everyone focused on the 0:12:11.170 --> 0:12:14.429 same thing? And today, the answer is largely yes, where 0:12:14.530 --> 0:12:19.010 we're really focused all on paralysis, enabling people whose brain-body 0:12:19.050 --> 0:12:21.589 connection has been disrupted by a disease or an injury. 0:12:22.350 --> 0:12:24.760 So think about someone who's in their 20s, they're in 0:12:24.770 --> 0:12:28.820 a catastrophic car accident, their brains function as well as 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:32.710 yours or mine probably better, but they have lost the 0:12:32.750 --> 0:12:35.570 ability to control their arms and hands. And so they 0:12:35.630 --> 0:12:37.510 can't use technology in the way that we all take 0:12:37.530 --> 0:12:39.010 for granted. So you can't use a phone, you can't 0:12:39.070 --> 0:12:41.990 use a tablet, you can't use a computer. Our goal 0:12:42.070 --> 0:12:46.469 is to give people in that situation control again over 0:12:46.530 --> 0:12:49.689 a digital ecosystem to enable them to have higher quality 0:12:49.710 --> 0:12:51.609 of life and eventually to go back to work if 0:12:51.650 --> 0:12:58.760 they want. The FDA is effectively pushing us and others 0:12:59.179 --> 0:13:02.090 to addressing that initial use case first, because we know 0:13:02.179 --> 0:13:06.410 it works. The risk benefit is just very obviously favorable, 0:13:07.190 --> 0:13:09.530 and it's a way to get this technology out into 0:13:09.550 --> 0:13:11.050 the world in a way that's going to make a 0:13:11.070 --> 0:13:12.100 real positive difference. 0:13:12.150 --> 0:13:15.199 Pushing by providing grant funding or pushing by not delaying 0:13:15.220 --> 0:13:16.100 things too much. 0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:19.840 I'd say encouraging. I'd say the FDA has been extremely 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:24.750 constructive But it's clear that we all should start in 0:13:24.809 --> 0:13:28.910 this place. That said, as this technology gets out in 0:13:28.929 --> 0:13:32.530 the world and as it advances, as discussed earlier, I 0:13:32.570 --> 0:13:34.650 think different companies are going to end up focusing in 0:13:34.690 --> 0:13:37.590 different areas. We are focused initially on the motor part 0:13:37.610 --> 0:13:40.750 of the brain because that is our first clinical application. 0:13:40.890 --> 0:13:45.979 And so decoding intended movements to drive a digital keyboard 0:13:46.020 --> 0:13:50.250 and digital mouse effectively is where we've started. But Now 0:13:50.350 --> 0:13:54.130 that we have established that functionality, we have the opportunity 0:13:54.290 --> 0:13:56.579 to look beyond it, and that's something that we're in 0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:57.510 the early days of doing. 0:13:58.429 --> 0:14:01.520 There was a New Yorker story, I guess probably in 2018, 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:04.700 about the scientist at Carnegie Mellon who was leading. You 0:14:04.720 --> 0:14:06.579 know his name, I guess, but I can't remember it 0:14:06.620 --> 0:14:07.339 off the top of my head. 0:14:07.540 --> 0:14:09.819 There are a few fantastic ones there. 0:14:09.960 --> 0:14:12.040 I met him, and it was a New Yorker story 0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:16.520 about how two young people had become paralyzed, both had 0:14:16.540 --> 0:14:20.280 the ability with this electronic array placed into their brain 0:14:20.300 --> 0:14:23.729 to control artificial limbs and maybe it was University of 0:14:23.750 --> 0:14:26.670 Pittsburgh actually but the piece had this kind of lyrical 0:14:26.710 --> 0:14:29.350 but ultimately quite tragic quality which was that it stopped 0:14:29.390 --> 0:14:31.750 working because whatever the word you use for the scar 0:14:31.770 --> 0:14:34.930 tissue in the brain would essentially grow over the arrays 0:14:35.070 --> 0:14:39.430 and like this miraculous experience like had its limit and 0:14:39.460 --> 0:14:42.280 that was a second sadness essentially in that but what 0:14:42.300 --> 0:14:44.480 you're saying is we may be on the cusp of 0:14:44.880 --> 0:14:45.560 that not being true. 0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:49.200 I think What we and a few others are doing 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:54.380 is taking that amazing proof of concept and productizing it 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:57.530 because that was achieved. And the other experiments like it, 0:14:57.770 --> 0:15:00.270 places like Carnegie Mellon and University of Pittsburgh and a 0:15:00.310 --> 0:15:06.710 few other centers of excellence, using prototype devices that involved 0:15:06.990 --> 0:15:10.830 parts of the system actually protruding from the head, wires 0:15:11.130 --> 0:15:16.800 often physically connecting the brain to external compute. There's all 0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:20.300 sorts of issues and risks associated with that, with infection 0:15:20.340 --> 0:15:23.560 being sort of the most obvious one. And the systems 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:25.880 were nowhere near robust enough to go through the FDA 0:15:25.950 --> 0:15:31.790 regulatory process. So the positive sort of take on this 0:15:32.050 --> 0:15:34.390 is this technology works and is going to make a 0:15:34.590 --> 0:15:36.970 huge difference to a group of people who right now 0:15:36.990 --> 0:15:40.590 have nothing. The negative is it's been validated in academia 0:15:40.610 --> 0:15:43.610 for two decades, and about 100 people have been implanted. 0:15:44.090 --> 0:15:48.980 I mean, incredibly poor real-world impact. And so I think 0:15:49.020 --> 0:15:51.300 it's our job to make sure that the next 20 0:15:51.300 --> 0:15:53.160 years are not like the previous 20. 0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:55.580 How many of these implants do you think you may 0:15:55.620 --> 0:15:56.400 do in the next 20 years? 0:15:57.220 --> 0:16:04.710 The path for precision is initially to start with severe paralysis. 0:16:05.390 --> 0:16:09.250 There are 350 or so thousand people in the United 0:16:09.310 --> 0:16:13.240 States and several million globally who are completely paralyzed. So 0:16:13.340 --> 0:16:15.780 unable to use arms and hands at all, but still 0:16:16.340 --> 0:16:19.800 sound of mind. I think the next expansion from that 0:16:20.260 --> 0:16:24.020 is towards partial paralysis. So think about, for example, someone 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:27.130 who's had a stroke. So they can use one side 0:16:27.170 --> 0:16:29.670 of their body, but not the other. Again, that means 0:16:29.950 --> 0:16:33.750 severe limitations in terms of an ability to control a keyboard, 0:16:33.770 --> 0:16:36.470 a mouse, a touchscreen. And that is a population that 0:16:36.510 --> 0:16:39.960 is five to 10 times larger than the initial severe 0:16:40.630 --> 0:16:44.900 paralysis population. So just in those two groups, which are 0:16:44.940 --> 0:16:47.940 our initial two areas of focus, you're talking about millions 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:49.900 of people in the United States and tens of millions 0:16:49.940 --> 0:16:55.160 of people globally. I'm very excited over time to address 0:16:55.820 --> 0:16:59.560 some of the neurological illnesses that we either have no 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:02.860 treatments for now or that they're very, very poor. So 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:06.600 two examples I'll give are one is refractory depression. So 0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:11.770 depression that doesn't respond well medication. The idea of using 0:17:11.890 --> 0:17:16.670 electricity to disrupt neural circuits that are not operating properly 0:17:17.450 --> 0:17:21.080 is extremely well established. It's electroconvulsive therapy. You're talking about 0:17:21.340 --> 0:17:25.119 putting electrodes on people's skulls. It's very coarse. There are 0:17:25.220 --> 0:17:29.580 significant off-target effects, which is sort of a euphemism for reality. 0:17:29.740 --> 0:17:32.490 And yet, it's still used as standard of care because 0:17:32.510 --> 0:17:32.869 it works. 0:17:33.340 --> 0:17:36.010 So what you've been talking up until now is output, 0:17:36.050 --> 0:17:38.649 decoding the thoughts from the brain to create action in 0:17:38.670 --> 0:17:40.530 the world. What you're now talking about is input. 0:17:40.690 --> 0:17:44.830 That's exactly right. I think the way that a really 0:17:44.869 --> 0:17:50.750 high-performance depression-focused system must work is bidirectional. So you need 0:17:50.770 --> 0:17:54.260 to be able to, instead of just introducing current to 0:17:54.300 --> 0:17:56.619 the brain, irrespective of brain state, you really want to 0:17:56.680 --> 0:18:02.180 understand when the brain needs intervention. And then when it does, 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:06.379 do so as precisely as possible to limit the sort 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:09.520 of the side effects of that intervention. I think that 0:18:09.660 --> 0:18:13.810 is only possible with a high-performance, high-bandwidth brain-computer interface. 0:18:14.550 --> 0:18:16.330 And when might UI want to get one of these 0:18:16.350 --> 0:18:17.310 voluntarily and why? 0:18:17.890 --> 0:18:21.570 I think the short answer is there's already people who 0:18:21.590 --> 0:18:24.650 want one. That said, I think that that's, you know, 0:18:25.170 --> 0:18:28.359 Neuralink has publicly said they have a 10,000-person wait list 0:18:28.470 --> 0:18:31.479 for their system. I guarantee not all those people are 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:35.470 severely paralyzed. we all get inquiries from folks who are 0:18:35.510 --> 0:18:38.830 interested in controlling computers in a more seamless way. I 0:18:38.869 --> 0:18:41.750 think the kind of maybe superficial way of describing it 0:18:41.790 --> 0:18:46.490 would be to say, well, we have always evolved the 0:18:47.130 --> 0:18:51.959 interface between computers and human beings, and that's unlocked new function. 0:18:52.100 --> 0:18:55.419 So like mainframe computers, we had punch cards. With the 0:18:55.440 --> 0:18:59.940 desktop and the laptop, we have a keyboard and a mouse. Increasingly, 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:04.200 we control computers with smartphones by tapping on a little 0:19:04.220 --> 0:19:08.320 black screen. And all of those shifts have created whole 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:12.020 new areas of function, new applications. I think the end 0:19:12.040 --> 0:19:16.639 state is direct neural control. That said, would I or 0:19:16.660 --> 0:19:20.149 would I recommend my family get an implant simply to 0:19:20.190 --> 0:19:22.850 be able to control a computer cursor a little bit faster, 0:19:22.869 --> 0:19:25.670 a little bit more efficiently? No, I think most people 0:19:25.710 --> 0:19:30.389 would not. I think where the really interesting and exciting 0:19:30.670 --> 0:19:35.859 developments lie is around being able to interact with technology 0:19:36.060 --> 0:19:38.900 in ways that are just not possible right now. So 0:19:39.160 --> 0:19:42.960 I'll give you an example. We all use AI in 0:19:43.280 --> 0:19:47.469 one way, shape, or form, largely through text prompts. You 0:19:47.490 --> 0:19:51.780 either speak a prompt or you... type it. That involves 0:19:51.820 --> 0:19:56.199 taking an idea and basically condensing it into words and 0:19:56.300 --> 0:19:58.580 outputting those words to a prompt. And what I think 0:19:58.619 --> 0:20:03.040 everybody experiences is that the output is magical in some ways, 0:20:03.140 --> 0:20:04.200 but often off. 0:20:04.480 --> 0:20:05.200 Lost in translation. 0:20:05.340 --> 0:20:07.100 A little bit. And you got to keep going back 0:20:07.119 --> 0:20:11.150 and forth and Eventually, it usually gets it. But the 0:20:11.210 --> 0:20:15.180 reason for that is at least partly because the AI 0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:20.260 doesn't have all of the context that you're bringing to 0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:23.460 this request. It doesn't have your memories. It doesn't have 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:28.109 your intentions. It doesn't have your perspective. It can't understand 0:20:28.170 --> 0:20:30.510 all of that. And it's very lossy to take an 0:20:30.630 --> 0:20:33.590 idea and condense it into a few sentences and a 0:20:33.609 --> 0:20:37.580 text prompt. I think where... we are headed is a 0:20:37.920 --> 0:20:43.439 system that can decode and interpret higher level mental processes. 0:20:43.960 --> 0:20:46.940 You know, we're starting with more mechanistic sort of motor control, 0:20:47.240 --> 0:20:49.060 but if you can decode the motor part of the brain, 0:20:49.180 --> 0:20:52.540 you can also decode some of these more sophisticated mental 0:20:52.580 --> 0:20:56.180 processes over time. And I think that that will enable 0:20:56.720 --> 0:20:59.710 us to interact with AI in ways that just aren't 0:20:59.810 --> 0:21:02.110 possible without a system like this. 0:21:02.630 --> 0:21:05.209 But so, I mean, talk about that because the, I mean, 0:21:05.670 --> 0:21:08.409 It's obviously one of the hardest science challenges humanity has 0:21:08.490 --> 0:21:12.450 ever solved to decode the brainwaves into electricity and turn 0:21:12.470 --> 0:21:15.090 it into output information to move a mechanical limb. I mean, 0:21:15.109 --> 0:21:17.310 no one would take away from how extraordinary that is. 0:21:17.990 --> 0:21:20.380 But ultimately, like, I know I want to raise my 0:21:20.430 --> 0:21:23.320 hand is different from, I know I want to sit 0:21:23.359 --> 0:21:26.200 here with Michael and continue the conversation, but I'm also hungry. Like, 0:21:26.240 --> 0:21:27.760 you know, like, should I go for lunch or should 0:21:27.780 --> 0:21:29.180 I stay? I'm going to stay because I have a 0:21:29.540 --> 0:21:32.379 higher order brain function that makes the social norm is 0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:35.430 that we continue this interview even though I'm hungry. First, 0:21:35.470 --> 0:21:38.110 what's been done now and what hasn't been done? But secondly, 0:21:38.170 --> 0:21:40.429 how do you begin to bridge that gap? 0:21:40.770 --> 0:21:43.580 It's a fantastic question. And I only have partial answers, 0:21:43.630 --> 0:21:47.040 but I'll sort of offer you what I have. That 0:21:47.200 --> 0:21:51.020 is absolutely true. It's part of the complexity of the 0:21:51.040 --> 0:21:54.930 brain and interfacing with the brain. And it's actually present 0:21:55.150 --> 0:21:57.210 even in the work that we're doing now. So we 0:21:57.430 --> 0:22:00.230 brought on, as an advisor, we announced this a couple 0:22:00.280 --> 0:22:02.840 months ago, John Donahue. He was the pioneer. John is 0:22:03.160 --> 0:22:06.600 the godfather of BCI. He did that sort of initial 0:22:06.600 --> 0:22:12.180 2004 implant and most of the other ones. He's seen 0:22:12.220 --> 0:22:13.840 it and done it all. And he joined Precision for 0:22:13.859 --> 0:22:15.760 a variety of reasons, which I can get into. But 0:22:16.300 --> 0:22:18.419 talking to him about some of the experiences, you know, 0:22:18.800 --> 0:22:22.990 what they found, especially in their earlier systems, was if someone... 0:22:23.280 --> 0:22:26.420