WEBVTT - Poverty in Marginalized Communities is Solvable 0:00:15.076 --> 0:00:21.796 Bushkin im Ave Higgins, and this is Solvable Interviews with 0:00:21.876 --> 0:00:25.516 the world's most innovative thinkers working to solve the world's 0:00:25.556 --> 0:00:29.916 biggest problems. My name is Samia Roy and I'm trying 0:00:29.916 --> 0:00:34.756 to solve the problem of marginalized communities by bringing the 0:00:34.796 --> 0:00:39.756 power of micro enterprise and microfinance to strengthen these communities. 0:00:40.436 --> 0:00:43.516 The problem that I'm focused on is to look at 0:00:43.516 --> 0:00:46.556 communities that are in both in poverty as well as 0:00:46.596 --> 0:00:49.476 they faced social exclusion, and to look at how micro 0:00:49.636 --> 0:00:53.636 enterprise can strengthen these communities. So we're in India today, 0:00:53.836 --> 0:00:57.116 a fabulous country that's about ten years away from becoming 0:00:57.236 --> 0:01:00.996 the biggest in the world population wise. India has had 0:01:01.116 --> 0:01:04.636 this booming economy that is slowing somewhat these days, but 0:01:04.836 --> 0:01:09.036 this huge nation has seen massive improvements in the quality 0:01:09.036 --> 0:01:13.236 of life for many of its one point three billion citizens. 0:01:14.076 --> 0:01:17.076 The work that they've done is extraordinary and the speed 0:01:17.076 --> 0:01:19.556 of it too. In the ten years leading up to 0:01:19.636 --> 0:01:23.916 twenty sixteen, India lifted two hundred and seventy one million 0:01:23.956 --> 0:01:28.956 people out of poverty. However, the World Bank's median poverty 0:01:28.996 --> 0:01:32.436 line is three dollars and ten cents a day and 0:01:32.676 --> 0:01:36.276 over half of India's population are stuck there at least 0:01:36.276 --> 0:01:39.396 for now. More than two hundred and fifty million people 0:01:39.556 --> 0:01:44.436 survive there on less than two dollars a day. So 0:01:44.516 --> 0:01:47.116 if it takes money to make money, can't they just 0:01:47.236 --> 0:01:51.356 borrow some and clamber up the ladder that way? Sadly, no, 0:01:52.076 --> 0:01:55.876 that particular slice of upward mobility is not available to 0:01:55.956 --> 0:02:00.836 many Indians. Banks will not do it, claiming limitations like oh, 0:02:00.996 --> 0:02:05.156 lack of security, high operating costs. But you know there's 0:02:05.196 --> 0:02:09.036 an alternative, and that's our guest, Sammy Roy is Solvable. 0:02:10.556 --> 0:02:14.076 Microfinance provides loans to poor people with the goal of 0:02:14.196 --> 0:02:20.116 creating financial inclusion and financial equality. Microfinance can also include 0:02:20.476 --> 0:02:25.556 savings and checkings, accounts, microinsurance, and payment systems. It basically 0:02:25.716 --> 0:02:30.556 makes money more affordable to poor and socially marginalized customers 0:02:30.596 --> 0:02:35.796 and helps them to become self sufficient. Samuel Roy came 0:02:35.836 --> 0:02:38.756 to this solvable in kind of a roundabout way. She 0:02:38.876 --> 0:02:42.676 started out as a financial journalist documenting the heyday of 0:02:42.876 --> 0:02:46.476 India's booming economy, and this one piece she was working 0:02:46.516 --> 0:02:50.036 on led her to discover whole communities that were cut 0:02:50.076 --> 0:02:53.396 out of the boom all these neighborhoods that were systematically 0:02:53.436 --> 0:02:58.196 denied banking services. That's called redlining, and red lining, well, 0:02:58.236 --> 0:03:01.636 it happens all over the world. It's a discriminatory practice 0:03:01.756 --> 0:03:05.156 that was actually banned here in the US fifty years ago. 0:03:05.836 --> 0:03:09.716 Red Lining is basically the way of locking people into poverty. 0:03:11.316 --> 0:03:14.596 Samya wanted to do something to help, and eventually, when 0:03:14.596 --> 0:03:18.356 her father retired as Mumbai's police chief, together they set 0:03:18.436 --> 0:03:22.516 up a nonprofit called the Vandana Foundation to help people 0:03:22.556 --> 0:03:26.636 that were targeted by redlining. You'll hear Samia mention a 0:03:26.676 --> 0:03:30.036 place called Daravi, which is considered to be one of 0:03:30.076 --> 0:03:33.036 the biggest slums in the world, but of course it's 0:03:33.076 --> 0:03:36.356 also an affordable place to call home in an expensive 0:03:36.396 --> 0:03:41.476 city like Mumbai. Davi has many Dalit communities made up 0:03:41.516 --> 0:03:45.356 of people outside the cast system, sometimes known as untouchables. 0:03:46.076 --> 0:03:49.956 We'll hear how Samya uses microfinance to lift the people 0:03:49.996 --> 0:03:52.916 in Daravi as well as people in other regions of 0:03:52.956 --> 0:03:58.116 India out of poverty in this great exchange with Malcolm Gladwell. Oh, 0:03:58.196 --> 0:04:02.156 and when she says microfinance, she means it. For context, 0:04:02.236 --> 0:04:05.636 you should know that five thousand rupees is about seventy dollars, 0:04:06.116 --> 0:04:10.276 So one thousand rupees is only around fourteen dollars. Okay, 0:04:10.356 --> 0:04:14.596 let's get yours. You started out as a journalist, a 0:04:14.596 --> 0:04:17.876 financial journalist, so tell me how one gets from doing 0:04:17.876 --> 0:04:21.996 financial journalism to becoming interested in starting a non profit 0:04:22.116 --> 0:04:27.516 in microfinance by making a lot of mistakes. So I 0:04:27.756 --> 0:04:29.596 was a financial journalist. I used to write about the 0:04:29.596 --> 0:04:34.036 stock market, about you know, GDP and all of these things. 0:04:34.036 --> 0:04:36.516 And one of the stories that I wrote about was redlining, 0:04:36.716 --> 0:04:38.716 which exists in the US and it exists in the UK, 0:04:38.836 --> 0:04:40.996 but I wrote about it for the first time in India, 0:04:41.036 --> 0:04:44.196 which is that I got out documents from banks that 0:04:44.396 --> 0:04:47.836 said what are the areas, the people, the communities that 0:04:47.956 --> 0:04:50.276 they don't learn to And that was the time, I 0:04:50.276 --> 0:04:52.436 think two thousand and eight or so, when the Indian 0:04:52.436 --> 0:04:55.556 economy was growing at like a historic base. Call center 0:04:55.716 --> 0:04:57.836 representatives would call up and say, do you need a 0:04:57.916 --> 0:05:00.516 loan for holiday? Do you need a loan for a wedding? 0:05:00.556 --> 0:05:03.316 Do you need a loan for your education? And if 0:05:03.356 --> 0:05:05.396 the person on the other side said yes, I would 0:05:05.596 --> 0:05:07.396 and they would say okay, grides to where do you live? 0:05:07.476 --> 0:05:09.236 And if they said they lived in an area that 0:05:09.316 --> 0:05:12.316 was dominated by Muslims. Often, you know, depending on the 0:05:12.316 --> 0:05:15.316 communities that you belong to where you lived, they would 0:05:15.316 --> 0:05:17.436 say no, I'm sorry, so we can't give you a loan. 0:05:18.196 --> 0:05:20.036 I often went to the Harave and I found that 0:05:20.236 --> 0:05:22.196 there were almost a million people living there and not 0:05:22.236 --> 0:05:25.076 a single bank branch. And if you went any two 0:05:25.156 --> 0:05:27.156 bank branches where and said that you belong to the 0:05:27.196 --> 0:05:29.796 Arave and you needed even to open a bank account 0:05:29.796 --> 0:05:31.956 to keep your own money, they would say, no, sir, 0:05:31.996 --> 0:05:34.076 if you belong there, we cannot open a bank branch 0:05:34.156 --> 0:05:36.676 for you for you to keep your own money. So 0:05:37.116 --> 0:05:40.916 and the other aspect was I wrote about India's farm 0:05:40.956 --> 0:05:44.236 prices and a farmers who committed suicide in spite of 0:05:44.236 --> 0:05:47.356 owning ten twenty thirty forty acres of land. And I 0:05:47.436 --> 0:05:49.956 often thought that, with my meager reporters salary, if I 0:05:49.996 --> 0:05:51.756 ever have the money, I would like to do something 0:05:51.756 --> 0:05:54.676 to resolve this. And yet, you know, journalists we think 0:05:54.716 --> 0:05:56.716 in terms of problems. We don't think in terms of 0:05:56.796 --> 0:06:00.436 solutions or solvables as you call them. So I waited 0:06:00.476 --> 0:06:02.916 a few years. I remember I had gotten award from 0:06:02.916 --> 0:06:04.876 the Asian Development Bank for a story. I did, and 0:06:04.956 --> 0:06:07.636 it was a princely some of five hundred dollars, and 0:06:07.676 --> 0:06:09.996 I saved it for two or three years, thinking that, Okay, 0:06:10.036 --> 0:06:11.996 if I have an opportunity, I would like to spend 0:06:12.036 --> 0:06:14.796 it to to in some way resolve issues like this. 0:06:15.316 --> 0:06:17.556 And then in twenty ten, my father retired from the 0:06:17.596 --> 0:06:19.916 government and we decided that we would start a nonprofit 0:06:19.956 --> 0:06:23.996 together where we would work on financial inclusion, as in 0:06:24.396 --> 0:06:27.836 strengthening these communities where nobody opened their bank account, nobody 0:06:27.876 --> 0:06:30.516 open and gave them credit cards for business purposes and 0:06:30.556 --> 0:06:32.556 if I wanted one for a holiday to Europe, I 0:06:32.556 --> 0:06:35.196 could get a loan. And so we decided to open 0:06:35.236 --> 0:06:37.916 a nonprofit that worked on this, and we also worked 0:06:37.916 --> 0:06:41.196 in rural areas where they faced very similar problems. So 0:06:41.316 --> 0:06:44.076 tell me a little bit about all the reasons why 0:06:44.396 --> 0:06:48.276 particular communities would be either ill served or not served 0:06:48.356 --> 0:06:52.396 by existing financial institutions, because I'm assuming it's some combination 0:06:52.436 --> 0:06:56.596 of attitudes on a part of the financial institutions, but 0:06:56.716 --> 0:07:01.516 also characteristics of the community themselves. Yeah, so it is 0:07:01.516 --> 0:07:04.876 what I would call othering, where it's the bank's call. 0:07:04.956 --> 0:07:07.436 At that point, there was not much data available like today, 0:07:07.516 --> 0:07:10.156 data science makes it possible for us to say who 0:07:10.196 --> 0:07:12.356 can repay and who cannot repay, But at that point 0:07:12.396 --> 0:07:14.916 they didn't have any great empirical data to say so, 0:07:15.196 --> 0:07:17.036 and so it was just a feard. We don't want 0:07:17.036 --> 0:07:19.756 to step foot in this place. It's a ghetto. We 0:07:19.796 --> 0:07:22.116 don't feel we can find addresses in this place. The 0:07:22.236 --> 0:07:24.396 lanes are too narrow even for the sun to get in. 0:07:24.956 --> 0:07:26.956 We don't want to send up people there because they 0:07:26.956 --> 0:07:30.356 could be in harm's way, and so they didn't extend 0:07:30.716 --> 0:07:35.156 their services. They're not based too much on any data 0:07:35.236 --> 0:07:38.236 because in fact we find that today if you see 0:07:38.276 --> 0:07:42.036 India's economy today, corporate defaults are at a historic high. 0:07:42.476 --> 0:07:44.396 So all the people that banks were lining up to 0:07:44.436 --> 0:07:47.076 give loans to have defaulted on their loans left the 0:07:47.116 --> 0:07:49.516 country and they now live in Europe, having defaulted on 0:07:49.636 --> 0:07:52.116 thousands of cross of loans. Banks have known way of 0:07:52.156 --> 0:07:55.356 getting that money back, and yet they targeted the pos 0:07:55.436 --> 0:07:57.596 saying that, oh, we don't feel they would get that money. 0:07:57.596 --> 0:08:01.836 So you identify a couple of different strands of misinformation 0:08:01.836 --> 0:08:04.436 and prejudice on a part of the institutions. One is 0:08:04.436 --> 0:08:06.996 that they're simply don't know the communities don't know how 0:08:07.036 --> 0:08:10.236 to navigate them. And the second thing is that they 0:08:10.276 --> 0:08:15.636 have an intuition, which is that getting people to repay 0:08:15.636 --> 0:08:18.356 their loans will be more difficult in these communities. Do 0:08:18.436 --> 0:08:22.516 they have no empirical support for that second of those institutions. 0:08:22.916 --> 0:08:25.436 So that has changed over the last ten years. The 0:08:25.476 --> 0:08:28.916 for profit microfinance sector has stepped in and it's become big. 0:08:28.996 --> 0:08:31.756 It's sort of fairly well regulated, and now we have 0:08:31.796 --> 0:08:34.676 credit bureaus even for the poor. So we do report 0:08:34.676 --> 0:08:36.796 our data to the credit bureau that we have a 0:08:36.876 --> 0:08:39.876 fair ranular data in terms of who repays who doesn't repay. 0:08:40.156 --> 0:08:43.996 There are also national identity cards through which subsidies go in, 0:08:44.236 --> 0:08:46.756 so that has changed a lot in the last ten years. 0:08:47.236 --> 0:08:49.196 But but yes, at that point that was the case 0:08:49.316 --> 0:08:51.876 very much. But now, so what is empirically the state 0:08:51.876 --> 0:08:55.836 of our knowledge about the credit worthiness of poor communities? 0:08:55.876 --> 0:08:58.436 What is it? Yes, we know how much how many 0:08:58.476 --> 0:09:01.236 loans they have, we know if they've defaulted on loans 0:09:01.756 --> 0:09:04.876 they have. They also have a credit rating, so you know, 0:09:04.916 --> 0:09:06.956 sometimes they'll even try to game this. They know what 0:09:07.036 --> 0:09:08.756 they have a sense, they have a degree of soface, 0:09:08.836 --> 0:09:11.156 they have a slightly sophisticated sense of what is their 0:09:11.196 --> 0:09:14.956 credit rating, and that that drives consumer behavior as well. 0:09:14.996 --> 0:09:16.756 They know that in order to get the next loan, 0:09:16.836 --> 0:09:19.196 or to get a higher ticket loan, they need to 0:09:19.236 --> 0:09:21.676 maintain their credit worthiness, and they do what it takes. 0:09:22.116 --> 0:09:27.316 Having said that, access to credit for say Muslims, for 0:09:28.236 --> 0:09:32.076 the lids for schedule cast is still not comparable with 0:09:32.116 --> 0:09:36.396 what it is for uppercasting, those etc. Yeah, So even 0:09:36.436 --> 0:09:40.796 if I provide a financial institution with data showing which 0:09:40.796 --> 0:09:43.556 people in a particular community are credit worthy, that's not 0:09:43.596 --> 0:09:45.756 going to be sufficient to get them to serve that 0:09:45.796 --> 0:09:48.076 community as well as they do other communities. So there's 0:09:48.076 --> 0:09:52.156 a there's a there's a bias on top of suspicion 0:09:52.196 --> 0:09:55.316 about credit worthiness. Yes, I would say, first of all, 0:09:55.436 --> 0:09:59.476 if you were to have done nothing, Yes, if no 0:09:59.476 --> 0:10:03.476 nonprofits were stepping in, would this problem naturally resolve itself 0:10:03.476 --> 0:10:06.956 over time? Do you think the banks would eventually come around? 0:10:07.556 --> 0:10:11.156 So what happened was that, as you know, gramming became 0:10:11.196 --> 0:10:13.796 a huge success in the microfinance space, and since the 0:10:13.876 --> 0:10:15.996 time when we started, when we started in where they 0:10:15.996 --> 0:10:19.196 would hardly one or two microfinance companies, but then this 0:10:19.316 --> 0:10:23.276 sector became very big in the for profit space, so 0:10:23.316 --> 0:10:25.436 there is a lot of lending now. Many of them 0:10:25.436 --> 0:10:28.036 have become banks, they become small banks, They raised private 0:10:28.036 --> 0:10:31.516 equity money and successfully returned it. Having said that, do 0:10:31.556 --> 0:10:35.356 I see the lives of the poor having changed, Not necessarily, 0:10:35.756 --> 0:10:38.236 the lives of the poor remain in many ways, just 0:10:38.396 --> 0:10:40.836 as fragile. Their studies to show that many of these 0:10:40.876 --> 0:10:45.636 loans become consumption smoothening loans they go into say medical expenses, 0:10:45.756 --> 0:10:49.716 educational expenses, emergency expenses. We don't see the kind of 0:10:49.756 --> 0:10:53.156 asset creation, not them. And it's something that bothers me 0:10:53.196 --> 0:10:56.116 as well that I don't necessarily see the poor becoming 0:10:56.596 --> 0:10:58.876 rising to the middle class or the lower middle class. 0:10:59.236 --> 0:11:02.956 Any blow that comes, like say in the form of demonetization, 0:11:03.436 --> 0:11:05.636 really does get them back to the ground as they 0:11:05.676 --> 0:11:09.796 were before. Yeah, So describe to me your the particular 0:11:09.956 --> 0:11:14.596 niche that you're operating in as this nonprofit you're involved in. 0:11:14.836 --> 0:11:16.996 What is it? So you're trying to address a specific 0:11:17.076 --> 0:11:19.956 part of this problem. Yes, So, our ticket sizes of 0:11:20.036 --> 0:11:22.716 loans are the smallest in the industry in India by far. 0:11:23.676 --> 0:11:26.156 The average ticket size in India would be about twenty 0:11:26.156 --> 0:11:29.236 five thousand rupees for per loan. We started five thousand, 0:11:29.676 --> 0:11:33.156 so we are specifically targeting porest of poor. About eighty 0:11:33.156 --> 0:11:36.276 percent of our borrowers are Muslims. Then, in the rural 0:11:36.276 --> 0:11:38.796 area where we work specifically look for widows of farmers 0:11:38.836 --> 0:11:41.716 who committed suicide. In the last nine years our work 0:11:41.756 --> 0:11:43.956 has grown, so while they are not all the widows, 0:11:44.036 --> 0:11:47.156 we also have at risk women like who have whose 0:11:47.196 --> 0:11:49.916 husbands have defaulted on loans, they're working on farms, they 0:11:49.916 --> 0:11:53.516 maybe single mothers for different reasons. So we are looking 0:11:53.556 --> 0:11:56.436 for the most vulnerable communities. We work a lot with 0:11:56.436 --> 0:11:59.356 waste because who work on the landfill of Bombay, So 0:11:59.396 --> 0:12:02.116 we definitely look for the most vulnerable of communities, and 0:12:02.236 --> 0:12:06.036 apart from microfinance, even to make them credit worthy, we 0:12:06.116 --> 0:12:10.356 give them everything from say counseling to my enterprise training. 0:12:10.796 --> 0:12:13.676 I remember when we worked with widows. We wasted months 0:12:13.676 --> 0:12:15.636 and months with us saying hey, we have a grant, 0:12:15.676 --> 0:12:18.116 we can give you money, why don't you start a business, 0:12:18.596 --> 0:12:21.676 and they, having faced years and years of abuse and 0:12:21.716 --> 0:12:25.356 depression and vulnerability, said we can't do anything. What do 0:12:25.436 --> 0:12:26.996 we do even if you give us the money, we 0:12:27.036 --> 0:12:29.196 have no way of doing anything we just endlessly do 0:12:29.236 --> 0:12:33.156 weating and debating on farms. So we started classes for 0:12:33.196 --> 0:12:35.876 them that hey, here's what you can do, and once 0:12:35.876 --> 0:12:38.516 they started, almost all of them have been highly successful. 0:12:38.556 --> 0:12:43.236 So describe your typical loan applicant and then tell me 0:12:43.316 --> 0:12:46.956 the ways in which they're with your help their life 0:12:47.036 --> 0:12:49.956 might change over the course of After the course, I'll 0:12:49.996 --> 0:12:52.316 tell you, I'll take a rural example, if you don't mind. 0:12:52.636 --> 0:12:56.476 So we have many of these widows. We've picked widows particularly. 0:12:56.516 --> 0:12:58.156 You think that they will be old, but many of 0:12:58.156 --> 0:13:00.556 them are very young. They're between twenty and forty years old. 0:13:00.956 --> 0:13:04.276 Often they'll have two children or more. They will be 0:13:04.316 --> 0:13:07.556 looking after their parents in law, who are typically old 0:13:07.596 --> 0:13:10.756 and real. When we spend months and months telling them 0:13:10.756 --> 0:13:12.996 you should do something, they'll say, we can't do anything. 0:13:13.316 --> 0:13:15.476 We've had many women calling us up. When we call them, 0:13:15.476 --> 0:13:17.196 they say, please don't call us, because you're going to 0:13:17.196 --> 0:13:19.276 push us to do something and we can't do anything. 0:13:20.196 --> 0:13:22.276 So one or we've had a few who've dropped out 0:13:22.316 --> 0:13:24.916 for that reason. And eventually when we'll push them and 0:13:24.916 --> 0:13:26.876 there's there'll be a lot of motivation and a lot 0:13:26.876 --> 0:13:30.916 of counseling everything, and when they agree, just that act 0:13:30.996 --> 0:13:33.356 of stepping out of the house to take our loan 0:13:33.556 --> 0:13:35.956 or to take a grunt. Sometimes we've even given small 0:13:35.956 --> 0:13:37.676 grunts when we feel they don't even have food in 0:13:37.676 --> 0:13:39.436 the house. We've given them a grunt to start with. 0:13:40.036 --> 0:13:42.436 So now they have a lot of fear in their 0:13:42.436 --> 0:13:44.516 mind that if they were to sit. Let's say, we've 0:13:44.556 --> 0:13:46.476 had a woman who sat outside on the street and 0:13:46.516 --> 0:13:49.716 sold glass bangles, and people came and told her, you know, like, 0:13:49.756 --> 0:13:52.316 have you forgotten. Women are supposed to stay within the house. 0:13:52.316 --> 0:13:54.156 They're not supposed to be sitting on a street and 0:13:54.196 --> 0:13:57.476 selling bangles. And at first she said, and then she 0:13:57.516 --> 0:13:59.396 thought about everything she had learned in her glass and 0:13:59.436 --> 0:14:01.116 she said, you know what, I'm doing this to look 0:14:01.116 --> 0:14:03.836 after my children. If you will give me money for 0:14:03.916 --> 0:14:06.436 my house, I will stop doing it. And just the 0:14:06.556 --> 0:14:10.596 confidence to say that took a lot for her. But eventually, 0:14:10.636 --> 0:14:13.356 she being a widow, it became very big in though 0:14:14.116 --> 0:14:16.396 marriage market. As you know, Indian weddings are very big. 0:14:16.436 --> 0:14:19.516 It'll always be bigger than what the parent can afford. 0:14:20.116 --> 0:14:23.836 So she started walking miles and miles to different villages, saying, 0:14:23.876 --> 0:14:26.316 here I can sell bangers and whatever else. It is 0:14:26.316 --> 0:14:29.276 you need for a wedding, and so she would walk 0:14:29.356 --> 0:14:31.596 something like ten to twenty miles a day. In spite 0:14:31.596 --> 0:14:34.836 of having sickles cell anemia. She educated her daughter who's 0:14:34.876 --> 0:14:38.116 now a teacher. She treated her son, she treated herself. 0:14:38.116 --> 0:14:41.836 She had throat cancer and you know, but she never 0:14:41.876 --> 0:14:44.836 stopped working through any of that because she knew that 0:14:44.836 --> 0:14:47.636 that is what was keeping her family going. Another one 0:14:47.716 --> 0:14:50.156 has educated her son is an engineer today. He works 0:14:50.156 --> 0:14:53.196 for one of the biggest auto companies in India. Some 0:14:53.276 --> 0:14:55.676 of them had mortgaged their gold and they brought it back. 0:14:56.156 --> 0:14:59.476 So I think that first step is the hardest. So 0:14:59.516 --> 0:15:02.716 in that case, the only you were talking about, you 0:15:02.796 --> 0:15:05.196 did you begin with a grant or alone. We began 0:15:05.236 --> 0:15:07.636 with a grunt and so the grant would have been 0:15:07.636 --> 0:15:11.476 how large thousand rupees a month? Yeah, oh I see. 0:15:11.516 --> 0:15:13.756 So it was an ongoing We gave it to her 0:15:13.796 --> 0:15:16.076 for about a year yea. And by the end of 0:15:16.076 --> 0:15:17.956 it she was supposed to do something. So she has 0:15:17.996 --> 0:15:20.956 no obligations to repay this initial amount of money. We 0:15:21.036 --> 0:15:23.436 actually visited her house and we saw that she had 0:15:23.476 --> 0:15:26.116 no money even to eat and in that position, to 0:15:26.196 --> 0:15:29.196 become another source of debt to her just didn't feel 0:15:29.276 --> 0:15:31.756 right to us. So instead we said that in this 0:15:31.796 --> 0:15:34.756 one year, we'll train you, we'll do anything that you want, 0:15:34.796 --> 0:15:36.516 but by the end of this year, you need to 0:15:36.516 --> 0:15:40.156 become self sufficient. So one of our people when she 0:15:40.236 --> 0:15:42.756 finally she agreed and she decided to keep glass bangles. 0:15:42.796 --> 0:15:44.956 And I remember two months later we decided to visit 0:15:44.956 --> 0:15:46.956 her and we heard that yet she started her business 0:15:47.236 --> 0:15:49.196 and she had a little piggie bank in her house 0:15:49.236 --> 0:15:51.236 and she had kept all her earnings and that that 0:15:51.356 --> 0:15:53.676 in case we came, she could give the money back 0:15:53.716 --> 0:15:57.836 to us. Wow, that's how the degree of responsibility. So 0:15:57.916 --> 0:15:59.796 how in that year, how long did it take her 0:15:59.796 --> 0:16:01.876 to come up with the notion that she wanted to 0:16:01.876 --> 0:16:04.876 do to sell glass Bengals. It took her several months. 0:16:04.876 --> 0:16:06.596 At that point, we didn't have an office. We used 0:16:06.636 --> 0:16:10.356 to sit under a tree thirty forty women, and you know, 0:16:10.396 --> 0:16:12.036 they would all, what will you do? You know, it 0:16:12.076 --> 0:16:14.076 was a deadlock where we would we would have forty 0:16:14.156 --> 0:16:16.076 women sitting around and so, well, we will fund you, 0:16:16.076 --> 0:16:17.796 you know, with a small amount of money, what would 0:16:17.796 --> 0:16:19.556 you like to do? And they would say, we can't 0:16:19.596 --> 0:16:22.436 do anything. And finally this One woman stood up and 0:16:22.436 --> 0:16:24.836 she said, you know, I was pregnant when my husband died, 0:16:25.356 --> 0:16:27.476 and now my son is five years old. I have 0:16:27.596 --> 0:16:30.316 to do something. I don't care what anybody says. And 0:16:30.356 --> 0:16:32.516 when the next time she came for the meeting and 0:16:32.516 --> 0:16:34.396 she said, yes, I've started. I run a little like 0:16:34.396 --> 0:16:36.836 a corner shop within my own house. It's running, I'm 0:16:36.876 --> 0:16:40.356 earning money, and I feel so confident I can face anything. 0:16:40.876 --> 0:16:43.436 And that gave confidence to other women as well, that yes, 0:16:43.556 --> 0:16:46.156 we can do it too. It's a notion, this question 0:16:46.196 --> 0:16:50.276 of there resists the reluctance to do something? Is it? 0:16:50.716 --> 0:16:52.676 You said? How much of it is a product of 0:16:53.676 --> 0:16:57.236 just how kind of traumatic and overwhelming your lives a been, 0:16:57.476 --> 0:16:59.596 and how much of it is if they don't know, 0:17:00.236 --> 0:17:01.956 they actually don't know what it would? I mean, if 0:17:01.996 --> 0:17:04.116 you ask me to start a business tomorrow, I've taken 0:17:04.156 --> 0:17:05.876 a long time figure what I would do right? How 0:17:05.956 --> 0:17:08.076 much of it is simply that what on earth business 0:17:08.156 --> 0:17:11.116 could I do even if I wanted to. It's both, 0:17:11.316 --> 0:17:14.156 and we tackle both. You know. When we've had this deadlock, 0:17:14.236 --> 0:17:17.516 we called a trainer in and he turned out to 0:17:17.516 --> 0:17:20.956 be very nice because he actually he said, let's we 0:17:20.996 --> 0:17:23.956 have a blackboard here right down. Why what are the 0:17:24.036 --> 0:17:26.276 hurdles you face in doing a business. So some of 0:17:26.316 --> 0:17:28.276 them said, well, I have no ideas. What would I do. 0:17:28.316 --> 0:17:30.276 I've never done a business before. And he said, yeah, 0:17:30.276 --> 0:17:32.196 that's fair. It takes a different kind of mindset to 0:17:32.236 --> 0:17:34.956 be an entrepreneur. So he said he thought of the 0:17:35.036 --> 0:17:37.516 smallest of things that they could do. I think it's 0:17:37.556 --> 0:17:40.236 also a little bit of I wouldn't do lack is 0:17:40.276 --> 0:17:42.996 a very strong word, but the lack of imagination, because 0:17:42.996 --> 0:17:45.436 they don't know what urban markets are like. So he 0:17:45.476 --> 0:17:47.996 gave them the most easy examples. He said, could you 0:17:48.036 --> 0:17:51.916 sell crushed peanuts? Could you sell peeled sugar cane? And 0:17:51.996 --> 0:17:53.756 he gave them this example. So you guys in a 0:17:53.836 --> 0:17:56.116 village can just eat a sugar cane. You have strong teeth. 0:17:56.156 --> 0:17:58.716 But people in cities they're not used to it. So 0:17:58.756 --> 0:18:00.316 if you were just to peel a sugar cane and 0:18:00.316 --> 0:18:02.116 sell it, you could earn so much more money. And 0:18:02.196 --> 0:18:04.636 they were just surprised, you know. Or if you just 0:18:04.676 --> 0:18:06.436 crushed chilies and sell it, you could earn a lot 0:18:06.476 --> 0:18:08.556 more money, and they were just like, wow, I could 0:18:08.556 --> 0:18:11.516 do this. So he just gave them hundreds of easy ideas. 0:18:11.876 --> 0:18:14.636 Then one woman finally stood up and said, I worry 0:18:14.676 --> 0:18:17.276 what are people going to say? And he reminded them 0:18:17.316 --> 0:18:22.836 of a Bollywood song, like people are going to say something, 0:18:22.876 --> 0:18:25.276 it's their job to say something. We don't need to 0:18:25.316 --> 0:18:28.076 worry about those people. And suddenly this room full of 0:18:28.116 --> 0:18:31.076 women was just giggling like he just made light of 0:18:31.116 --> 0:18:34.276 the fact that, yes, that discrimination all that, that judgment 0:18:34.476 --> 0:18:36.756 is there, and here let's deal with it head on. 0:18:36.916 --> 0:18:38.556 So let's go back to the example of the woman 0:18:38.596 --> 0:18:42.156 with the Bengals. So she gets a grant for a year, 0:18:42.516 --> 0:18:45.596 a thousand rupees a month. Then she decides at some 0:18:45.716 --> 0:18:49.236 point that she would like to she making the class 0:18:49.236 --> 0:18:51.556 Bengals stuff. Now she's buying them from somewhere else and 0:18:52.276 --> 0:18:55.316 buying them wholesale and selling them on the street. So 0:18:55.436 --> 0:18:57.676 you then, at that point when she has this idea, 0:18:57.756 --> 0:19:00.316 you then say, we'd like to give you a loan. Yes, 0:19:00.516 --> 0:19:02.556 how much of a loan are you giving her? We 0:19:02.636 --> 0:19:05.836 started with five thousand, She's now taken twenty five thousand 0:19:05.996 --> 0:19:08.876 each time from us several times. Yeah, and she what 0:19:09.036 --> 0:19:11.276 is the term of repayment on that twenty five thousand? 0:19:11.476 --> 0:19:14.356 It's interest free. Who's interest free? Yeah, oh, I see, 0:19:14.676 --> 0:19:16.916 and so but she is. So can you tell me 0:19:16.956 --> 0:19:19.596 a little bit more about how kind of credit worthy 0:19:19.676 --> 0:19:23.156 she has been. Yeah, she's been perfectly credit worthy. Actually, 0:19:23.156 --> 0:19:25.956 in rural areas, we found people to be extremely credit 0:19:25.996 --> 0:19:29.676 worthy because also, our loan is interest free, so we 0:19:29.716 --> 0:19:32.236 do tell them. Even when demonetization happened, there were a 0:19:32.236 --> 0:19:35.036 lot of politicians who came and told them, hey, you 0:19:35.076 --> 0:19:37.156 don't need to repay et cetera, and we told them 0:19:37.156 --> 0:19:40.196 to listen, our loan is interest free. So you know, 0:19:40.356 --> 0:19:42.116 we have a bond with you. We're not doing this 0:19:42.156 --> 0:19:44.236 because we're trying to make money off of you or 0:19:44.276 --> 0:19:46.956 we are not like another money lender or something like that. 0:19:47.516 --> 0:19:49.276 So you know, we want to have a long term 0:19:49.276 --> 0:19:51.556 relationship with you, and when you return your money, we 0:19:51.636 --> 0:19:53.756 give it, give it to somebody else who needs it, 0:19:53.836 --> 0:19:56.956 just like yourself. Yeah, so she is she going to 0:19:57.036 --> 0:19:59.996 be using you in perpetuity as a revolving man of credit. 0:20:00.276 --> 0:20:02.356 So we are we are grappling with that at this 0:20:02.396 --> 0:20:04.996 point because she's been with us for now. This is 0:20:04.996 --> 0:20:08.716 our ninth year, so she wants to graduate to bigger loans. 0:20:09.196 --> 0:20:11.876 She also took a loan to take a tailoring machine. 0:20:11.956 --> 0:20:15.476 She makes starry blouses. She's very highly enterprising, so she'll 0:20:15.516 --> 0:20:18.236 have bangals, she'll have jewelry, she'll have anything that sells 0:20:18.236 --> 0:20:23.116 in the manage market, flowers, flower pots. Every time I go, 0:20:23.156 --> 0:20:26.396 I find something new that she's selling. So, yes, she 0:20:26.436 --> 0:20:28.796 can take a bigger loan and she can RepA it. 0:20:29.396 --> 0:20:31.796 Can she go to a bank? Would a bank be 0:20:31.916 --> 0:20:34.996 interested in her? Maybe? Or maybe not? No. This is 0:20:34.996 --> 0:20:39.316 interesting because I would have thought that eventually people would 0:20:39.316 --> 0:20:41.636 graduate out of your program and the banks would see 0:20:42.196 --> 0:20:43.996