1 00:00:15,076 --> 00:00:21,796 Speaker 1: Bushkin im Ave Higgins, and this is Solvable Interviews with 2 00:00:21,876 --> 00:00:25,516 Speaker 1: the world's most innovative thinkers working to solve the world's 3 00:00:25,556 --> 00:00:29,916 Speaker 1: biggest problems. My name is Samia Roy and I'm trying 4 00:00:29,916 --> 00:00:34,756 Speaker 1: to solve the problem of marginalized communities by bringing the 5 00:00:34,796 --> 00:00:39,756 Speaker 1: power of micro enterprise and microfinance to strengthen these communities. 6 00:00:40,436 --> 00:00:43,516 Speaker 1: The problem that I'm focused on is to look at 7 00:00:43,516 --> 00:00:46,556 Speaker 1: communities that are in both in poverty as well as 8 00:00:46,596 --> 00:00:49,476 Speaker 1: they faced social exclusion, and to look at how micro 9 00:00:49,636 --> 00:00:53,636 Speaker 1: enterprise can strengthen these communities. So we're in India today, 10 00:00:53,836 --> 00:00:57,116 Speaker 1: a fabulous country that's about ten years away from becoming 11 00:00:57,236 --> 00:01:00,996 Speaker 1: the biggest in the world population wise. India has had 12 00:01:01,116 --> 00:01:04,636 Speaker 1: this booming economy that is slowing somewhat these days, but 13 00:01:04,836 --> 00:01:09,036 Speaker 1: this huge nation has seen massive improvements in the quality 14 00:01:09,036 --> 00:01:13,236 Speaker 1: of life for many of its one point three billion citizens. 15 00:01:14,076 --> 00:01:17,076 Speaker 1: The work that they've done is extraordinary and the speed 16 00:01:17,076 --> 00:01:19,556 Speaker 1: of it too. In the ten years leading up to 17 00:01:19,636 --> 00:01:23,916 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, India lifted two hundred and seventy one million 18 00:01:23,956 --> 00:01:28,956 Speaker 1: people out of poverty. However, the World Bank's median poverty 19 00:01:28,996 --> 00:01:32,436 Speaker 1: line is three dollars and ten cents a day and 20 00:01:32,676 --> 00:01:36,276 Speaker 1: over half of India's population are stuck there at least 21 00:01:36,276 --> 00:01:39,396 Speaker 1: for now. More than two hundred and fifty million people 22 00:01:39,556 --> 00:01:44,436 Speaker 1: survive there on less than two dollars a day. So 23 00:01:44,516 --> 00:01:47,116 Speaker 1: if it takes money to make money, can't they just 24 00:01:47,236 --> 00:01:51,356 Speaker 1: borrow some and clamber up the ladder that way? Sadly, no, 25 00:01:52,076 --> 00:01:55,876 Speaker 1: that particular slice of upward mobility is not available to 26 00:01:55,956 --> 00:02:00,836 Speaker 1: many Indians. Banks will not do it, claiming limitations like oh, 27 00:02:00,996 --> 00:02:05,156 Speaker 1: lack of security, high operating costs. But you know there's 28 00:02:05,196 --> 00:02:09,036 Speaker 1: an alternative, and that's our guest, Sammy Roy is Solvable. 29 00:02:10,556 --> 00:02:14,076 Speaker 1: Microfinance provides loans to poor people with the goal of 30 00:02:14,196 --> 00:02:20,116 Speaker 1: creating financial inclusion and financial equality. Microfinance can also include 31 00:02:20,476 --> 00:02:25,556 Speaker 1: savings and checkings, accounts, microinsurance, and payment systems. It basically 32 00:02:25,716 --> 00:02:30,556 Speaker 1: makes money more affordable to poor and socially marginalized customers 33 00:02:30,596 --> 00:02:35,796 Speaker 1: and helps them to become self sufficient. Samuel Roy came 34 00:02:35,836 --> 00:02:38,756 Speaker 1: to this solvable in kind of a roundabout way. She 35 00:02:38,876 --> 00:02:42,676 Speaker 1: started out as a financial journalist documenting the heyday of 36 00:02:42,876 --> 00:02:46,476 Speaker 1: India's booming economy, and this one piece she was working 37 00:02:46,516 --> 00:02:50,036 Speaker 1: on led her to discover whole communities that were cut 38 00:02:50,076 --> 00:02:53,396 Speaker 1: out of the boom all these neighborhoods that were systematically 39 00:02:53,436 --> 00:02:58,196 Speaker 1: denied banking services. That's called redlining, and red lining, well, 40 00:02:58,236 --> 00:03:01,636 Speaker 1: it happens all over the world. It's a discriminatory practice 41 00:03:01,756 --> 00:03:05,156 Speaker 1: that was actually banned here in the US fifty years ago. 42 00:03:05,836 --> 00:03:09,716 Speaker 1: Red Lining is basically the way of locking people into poverty. 43 00:03:11,316 --> 00:03:14,596 Speaker 1: Samya wanted to do something to help, and eventually, when 44 00:03:14,596 --> 00:03:18,356 Speaker 1: her father retired as Mumbai's police chief, together they set 45 00:03:18,436 --> 00:03:22,516 Speaker 1: up a nonprofit called the Vandana Foundation to help people 46 00:03:22,556 --> 00:03:26,636 Speaker 1: that were targeted by redlining. You'll hear Samia mention a 47 00:03:26,676 --> 00:03:30,036 Speaker 1: place called Daravi, which is considered to be one of 48 00:03:30,076 --> 00:03:33,036 Speaker 1: the biggest slums in the world, but of course it's 49 00:03:33,076 --> 00:03:36,356 Speaker 1: also an affordable place to call home in an expensive 50 00:03:36,396 --> 00:03:41,476 Speaker 1: city like Mumbai. Davi has many Dalit communities made up 51 00:03:41,516 --> 00:03:45,356 Speaker 1: of people outside the cast system, sometimes known as untouchables. 52 00:03:46,076 --> 00:03:49,956 Speaker 1: We'll hear how Samya uses microfinance to lift the people 53 00:03:49,996 --> 00:03:52,916 Speaker 1: in Daravi as well as people in other regions of 54 00:03:52,956 --> 00:03:58,116 Speaker 1: India out of poverty in this great exchange with Malcolm Gladwell. Oh, 55 00:03:58,196 --> 00:04:02,156 Speaker 1: and when she says microfinance, she means it. For context, 56 00:04:02,236 --> 00:04:05,636 Speaker 1: you should know that five thousand rupees is about seventy dollars, 57 00:04:06,116 --> 00:04:10,276 Speaker 1: So one thousand rupees is only around fourteen dollars. Okay, 58 00:04:10,356 --> 00:04:14,596 Speaker 1: let's get yours. You started out as a journalist, a 59 00:04:14,596 --> 00:04:17,876 Speaker 1: financial journalist, so tell me how one gets from doing 60 00:04:17,876 --> 00:04:21,996 Speaker 1: financial journalism to becoming interested in starting a non profit 61 00:04:22,116 --> 00:04:27,516 Speaker 1: in microfinance by making a lot of mistakes. So I 62 00:04:27,756 --> 00:04:29,596 Speaker 1: was a financial journalist. I used to write about the 63 00:04:29,596 --> 00:04:34,036 Speaker 1: stock market, about you know, GDP and all of these things. 64 00:04:34,036 --> 00:04:36,516 Speaker 1: And one of the stories that I wrote about was redlining, 65 00:04:36,716 --> 00:04:38,716 Speaker 1: which exists in the US and it exists in the UK, 66 00:04:38,836 --> 00:04:40,996 Speaker 1: but I wrote about it for the first time in India, 67 00:04:41,036 --> 00:04:44,196 Speaker 1: which is that I got out documents from banks that 68 00:04:44,396 --> 00:04:47,836 Speaker 1: said what are the areas, the people, the communities that 69 00:04:47,956 --> 00:04:50,276 Speaker 1: they don't learn to And that was the time, I 70 00:04:50,276 --> 00:04:52,436 Speaker 1: think two thousand and eight or so, when the Indian 71 00:04:52,436 --> 00:04:55,556 Speaker 1: economy was growing at like a historic base. Call center 72 00:04:55,716 --> 00:04:57,836 Speaker 1: representatives would call up and say, do you need a 73 00:04:57,916 --> 00:05:00,516 Speaker 1: loan for holiday? Do you need a loan for a wedding? 74 00:05:00,556 --> 00:05:03,316 Speaker 1: Do you need a loan for your education? And if 75 00:05:03,356 --> 00:05:05,396 Speaker 1: the person on the other side said yes, I would 76 00:05:05,596 --> 00:05:07,396 Speaker 1: and they would say okay, grides to where do you live? 77 00:05:07,476 --> 00:05:09,236 Speaker 1: And if they said they lived in an area that 78 00:05:09,316 --> 00:05:12,316 Speaker 1: was dominated by Muslims. Often, you know, depending on the 79 00:05:12,316 --> 00:05:15,316 Speaker 1: communities that you belong to where you lived, they would 80 00:05:15,316 --> 00:05:17,436 Speaker 1: say no, I'm sorry, so we can't give you a loan. 81 00:05:18,196 --> 00:05:20,036 Speaker 1: I often went to the Harave and I found that 82 00:05:20,236 --> 00:05:22,196 Speaker 1: there were almost a million people living there and not 83 00:05:22,236 --> 00:05:25,076 Speaker 1: a single bank branch. And if you went any two 84 00:05:25,156 --> 00:05:27,156 Speaker 1: bank branches where and said that you belong to the 85 00:05:27,196 --> 00:05:29,796 Speaker 1: Arave and you needed even to open a bank account 86 00:05:29,796 --> 00:05:31,956 Speaker 1: to keep your own money, they would say, no, sir, 87 00:05:31,996 --> 00:05:34,076 Speaker 1: if you belong there, we cannot open a bank branch 88 00:05:34,156 --> 00:05:36,676 Speaker 1: for you for you to keep your own money. So 89 00:05:37,116 --> 00:05:40,916 Speaker 1: and the other aspect was I wrote about India's farm 90 00:05:40,956 --> 00:05:44,236 Speaker 1: prices and a farmers who committed suicide in spite of 91 00:05:44,236 --> 00:05:47,356 Speaker 1: owning ten twenty thirty forty acres of land. And I 92 00:05:47,436 --> 00:05:49,956 Speaker 1: often thought that, with my meager reporters salary, if I 93 00:05:49,996 --> 00:05:51,756 Speaker 1: ever have the money, I would like to do something 94 00:05:51,756 --> 00:05:54,676 Speaker 1: to resolve this. And yet, you know, journalists we think 95 00:05:54,716 --> 00:05:56,716 Speaker 1: in terms of problems. We don't think in terms of 96 00:05:56,796 --> 00:06:00,436 Speaker 1: solutions or solvables as you call them. So I waited 97 00:06:00,476 --> 00:06:02,916 Speaker 1: a few years. I remember I had gotten award from 98 00:06:02,916 --> 00:06:04,876 Speaker 1: the Asian Development Bank for a story. I did, and 99 00:06:04,956 --> 00:06:07,636 Speaker 1: it was a princely some of five hundred dollars, and 100 00:06:07,676 --> 00:06:09,996 Speaker 1: I saved it for two or three years, thinking that, Okay, 101 00:06:10,036 --> 00:06:11,996 Speaker 1: if I have an opportunity, I would like to spend 102 00:06:12,036 --> 00:06:14,796 Speaker 1: it to to in some way resolve issues like this. 103 00:06:15,316 --> 00:06:17,556 Speaker 1: And then in twenty ten, my father retired from the 104 00:06:17,596 --> 00:06:19,916 Speaker 1: government and we decided that we would start a nonprofit 105 00:06:19,956 --> 00:06:23,996 Speaker 1: together where we would work on financial inclusion, as in 106 00:06:24,396 --> 00:06:27,836 Speaker 1: strengthening these communities where nobody opened their bank account, nobody 107 00:06:27,876 --> 00:06:30,516 Speaker 1: open and gave them credit cards for business purposes and 108 00:06:30,556 --> 00:06:32,556 Speaker 1: if I wanted one for a holiday to Europe, I 109 00:06:32,556 --> 00:06:35,196 Speaker 1: could get a loan. And so we decided to open 110 00:06:35,236 --> 00:06:37,916 Speaker 1: a nonprofit that worked on this, and we also worked 111 00:06:37,916 --> 00:06:41,196 Speaker 1: in rural areas where they faced very similar problems. So 112 00:06:41,316 --> 00:06:44,076 Speaker 1: tell me a little bit about all the reasons why 113 00:06:44,396 --> 00:06:48,276 Speaker 1: particular communities would be either ill served or not served 114 00:06:48,356 --> 00:06:52,396 Speaker 1: by existing financial institutions, because I'm assuming it's some combination 115 00:06:52,436 --> 00:06:56,596 Speaker 1: of attitudes on a part of the financial institutions, but 116 00:06:56,716 --> 00:07:01,516 Speaker 1: also characteristics of the community themselves. Yeah, so it is 117 00:07:01,516 --> 00:07:04,876 Speaker 1: what I would call othering, where it's the bank's call. 118 00:07:04,956 --> 00:07:07,436 Speaker 1: At that point, there was not much data available like today, 119 00:07:07,516 --> 00:07:10,156 Speaker 1: data science makes it possible for us to say who 120 00:07:10,196 --> 00:07:12,356 Speaker 1: can repay and who cannot repay, But at that point 121 00:07:12,396 --> 00:07:14,916 Speaker 1: they didn't have any great empirical data to say so, 122 00:07:15,196 --> 00:07:17,036 Speaker 1: and so it was just a feard. We don't want 123 00:07:17,036 --> 00:07:19,756 Speaker 1: to step foot in this place. It's a ghetto. We 124 00:07:19,796 --> 00:07:22,116 Speaker 1: don't feel we can find addresses in this place. The 125 00:07:22,236 --> 00:07:24,396 Speaker 1: lanes are too narrow even for the sun to get in. 126 00:07:24,956 --> 00:07:26,956 Speaker 1: We don't want to send up people there because they 127 00:07:26,956 --> 00:07:30,356 Speaker 1: could be in harm's way, and so they didn't extend 128 00:07:30,716 --> 00:07:35,156 Speaker 1: their services. They're not based too much on any data 129 00:07:35,236 --> 00:07:38,236 Speaker 1: because in fact we find that today if you see 130 00:07:38,276 --> 00:07:42,036 Speaker 1: India's economy today, corporate defaults are at a historic high. 131 00:07:42,476 --> 00:07:44,396 Speaker 1: So all the people that banks were lining up to 132 00:07:44,436 --> 00:07:47,076 Speaker 1: give loans to have defaulted on their loans left the 133 00:07:47,116 --> 00:07:49,516 Speaker 1: country and they now live in Europe, having defaulted on 134 00:07:49,636 --> 00:07:52,116 Speaker 1: thousands of cross of loans. Banks have known way of 135 00:07:52,156 --> 00:07:55,356 Speaker 1: getting that money back, and yet they targeted the pos 136 00:07:55,436 --> 00:07:57,596 Speaker 1: saying that, oh, we don't feel they would get that money. 137 00:07:57,596 --> 00:08:01,836 Speaker 1: So you identify a couple of different strands of misinformation 138 00:08:01,836 --> 00:08:04,436 Speaker 1: and prejudice on a part of the institutions. One is 139 00:08:04,436 --> 00:08:06,996 Speaker 1: that they're simply don't know the communities don't know how 140 00:08:07,036 --> 00:08:10,236 Speaker 1: to navigate them. And the second thing is that they 141 00:08:10,276 --> 00:08:15,636 Speaker 1: have an intuition, which is that getting people to repay 142 00:08:15,636 --> 00:08:18,356 Speaker 1: their loans will be more difficult in these communities. Do 143 00:08:18,436 --> 00:08:22,516 Speaker 1: they have no empirical support for that second of those institutions. 144 00:08:22,916 --> 00:08:25,436 Speaker 1: So that has changed over the last ten years. The 145 00:08:25,476 --> 00:08:28,916 Speaker 1: for profit microfinance sector has stepped in and it's become big. 146 00:08:28,996 --> 00:08:31,756 Speaker 1: It's sort of fairly well regulated, and now we have 147 00:08:31,796 --> 00:08:34,676 Speaker 1: credit bureaus even for the poor. So we do report 148 00:08:34,676 --> 00:08:36,796 Speaker 1: our data to the credit bureau that we have a 149 00:08:36,876 --> 00:08:39,876 Speaker 1: fair ranular data in terms of who repays who doesn't repay. 150 00:08:40,156 --> 00:08:43,996 Speaker 1: There are also national identity cards through which subsidies go in, 151 00:08:44,236 --> 00:08:46,756 Speaker 1: so that has changed a lot in the last ten years. 152 00:08:47,236 --> 00:08:49,196 Speaker 1: But but yes, at that point that was the case 153 00:08:49,316 --> 00:08:51,876 Speaker 1: very much. But now, so what is empirically the state 154 00:08:51,876 --> 00:08:55,836 Speaker 1: of our knowledge about the credit worthiness of poor communities? 155 00:08:55,876 --> 00:08:58,436 Speaker 1: What is it? Yes, we know how much how many 156 00:08:58,476 --> 00:09:01,236 Speaker 1: loans they have, we know if they've defaulted on loans 157 00:09:01,756 --> 00:09:04,876 Speaker 1: they have. They also have a credit rating, so you know, 158 00:09:04,916 --> 00:09:06,956 Speaker 1: sometimes they'll even try to game this. They know what 159 00:09:07,036 --> 00:09:08,756 Speaker 1: they have a sense, they have a degree of soface, 160 00:09:08,836 --> 00:09:11,156 Speaker 1: they have a slightly sophisticated sense of what is their 161 00:09:11,196 --> 00:09:14,956 Speaker 1: credit rating, and that that drives consumer behavior as well. 162 00:09:14,996 --> 00:09:16,756 Speaker 1: They know that in order to get the next loan, 163 00:09:16,836 --> 00:09:19,196 Speaker 1: or to get a higher ticket loan, they need to 164 00:09:19,236 --> 00:09:21,676 Speaker 1: maintain their credit worthiness, and they do what it takes. 165 00:09:22,116 --> 00:09:27,316 Speaker 1: Having said that, access to credit for say Muslims, for 166 00:09:28,236 --> 00:09:32,076 Speaker 1: the lids for schedule cast is still not comparable with 167 00:09:32,116 --> 00:09:36,396 Speaker 1: what it is for uppercasting, those etc. Yeah, So even 168 00:09:36,436 --> 00:09:40,796 Speaker 1: if I provide a financial institution with data showing which 169 00:09:40,796 --> 00:09:43,556 Speaker 1: people in a particular community are credit worthy, that's not 170 00:09:43,596 --> 00:09:45,756 Speaker 1: going to be sufficient to get them to serve that 171 00:09:45,796 --> 00:09:48,076 Speaker 1: community as well as they do other communities. So there's 172 00:09:48,076 --> 00:09:52,156 Speaker 1: a there's a there's a bias on top of suspicion 173 00:09:52,196 --> 00:09:55,316 Speaker 1: about credit worthiness. Yes, I would say, first of all, 174 00:09:55,436 --> 00:09:59,476 Speaker 1: if you were to have done nothing, Yes, if no 175 00:09:59,476 --> 00:10:03,476 Speaker 1: nonprofits were stepping in, would this problem naturally resolve itself 176 00:10:03,476 --> 00:10:06,956 Speaker 1: over time? Do you think the banks would eventually come around? 177 00:10:07,556 --> 00:10:11,156 Speaker 1: So what happened was that, as you know, gramming became 178 00:10:11,196 --> 00:10:13,796 Speaker 1: a huge success in the microfinance space, and since the 179 00:10:13,876 --> 00:10:15,996 Speaker 1: time when we started, when we started in where they 180 00:10:15,996 --> 00:10:19,196 Speaker 1: would hardly one or two microfinance companies, but then this 181 00:10:19,316 --> 00:10:23,276 Speaker 1: sector became very big in the for profit space, so 182 00:10:23,316 --> 00:10:25,436 Speaker 1: there is a lot of lending now. Many of them 183 00:10:25,436 --> 00:10:28,036 Speaker 1: have become banks, they become small banks, They raised private 184 00:10:28,036 --> 00:10:31,516 Speaker 1: equity money and successfully returned it. Having said that, do 185 00:10:31,556 --> 00:10:35,356 Speaker 1: I see the lives of the poor having changed, Not necessarily, 186 00:10:35,756 --> 00:10:38,236 Speaker 1: the lives of the poor remain in many ways, just 187 00:10:38,396 --> 00:10:40,836 Speaker 1: as fragile. Their studies to show that many of these 188 00:10:40,876 --> 00:10:45,636 Speaker 1: loans become consumption smoothening loans they go into say medical expenses, 189 00:10:45,756 --> 00:10:49,716 Speaker 1: educational expenses, emergency expenses. We don't see the kind of 190 00:10:49,756 --> 00:10:53,156 Speaker 1: asset creation, not them. And it's something that bothers me 191 00:10:53,196 --> 00:10:56,116 Speaker 1: as well that I don't necessarily see the poor becoming 192 00:10:56,596 --> 00:10:58,876 Speaker 1: rising to the middle class or the lower middle class. 193 00:10:59,236 --> 00:11:02,956 Speaker 1: Any blow that comes, like say in the form of demonetization, 194 00:11:03,436 --> 00:11:05,636 Speaker 1: really does get them back to the ground as they 195 00:11:05,676 --> 00:11:09,796 Speaker 1: were before. Yeah, So describe to me your the particular 196 00:11:09,956 --> 00:11:14,596 Speaker 1: niche that you're operating in as this nonprofit you're involved in. 197 00:11:14,836 --> 00:11:16,996 Speaker 1: What is it? So you're trying to address a specific 198 00:11:17,076 --> 00:11:19,956 Speaker 1: part of this problem. Yes, So, our ticket sizes of 199 00:11:20,036 --> 00:11:22,716 Speaker 1: loans are the smallest in the industry in India by far. 200 00:11:23,676 --> 00:11:26,156 Speaker 1: The average ticket size in India would be about twenty 201 00:11:26,156 --> 00:11:29,236 Speaker 1: five thousand rupees for per loan. We started five thousand, 202 00:11:29,676 --> 00:11:33,156 Speaker 1: so we are specifically targeting porest of poor. About eighty 203 00:11:33,156 --> 00:11:36,276 Speaker 1: percent of our borrowers are Muslims. Then, in the rural 204 00:11:36,276 --> 00:11:38,796 Speaker 1: area where we work specifically look for widows of farmers 205 00:11:38,836 --> 00:11:41,716 Speaker 1: who committed suicide. In the last nine years our work 206 00:11:41,756 --> 00:11:43,956 Speaker 1: has grown, so while they are not all the widows, 207 00:11:44,036 --> 00:11:47,156 Speaker 1: we also have at risk women like who have whose 208 00:11:47,196 --> 00:11:49,916 Speaker 1: husbands have defaulted on loans, they're working on farms, they 209 00:11:49,916 --> 00:11:53,516 Speaker 1: maybe single mothers for different reasons. So we are looking 210 00:11:53,556 --> 00:11:56,436 Speaker 1: for the most vulnerable communities. We work a lot with 211 00:11:56,436 --> 00:11:59,356 Speaker 1: waste because who work on the landfill of Bombay, So 212 00:11:59,396 --> 00:12:02,116 Speaker 1: we definitely look for the most vulnerable of communities, and 213 00:12:02,236 --> 00:12:06,036 Speaker 1: apart from microfinance, even to make them credit worthy, we 214 00:12:06,116 --> 00:12:10,356 Speaker 1: give them everything from say counseling to my enterprise training. 215 00:12:10,796 --> 00:12:13,676 Speaker 1: I remember when we worked with widows. We wasted months 216 00:12:13,676 --> 00:12:15,636 Speaker 1: and months with us saying hey, we have a grant, 217 00:12:15,676 --> 00:12:18,116 Speaker 1: we can give you money, why don't you start a business, 218 00:12:18,596 --> 00:12:21,676 Speaker 1: and they, having faced years and years of abuse and 219 00:12:21,716 --> 00:12:25,356 Speaker 1: depression and vulnerability, said we can't do anything. What do 220 00:12:25,436 --> 00:12:26,996 Speaker 1: we do even if you give us the money, we 221 00:12:27,036 --> 00:12:29,196 Speaker 1: have no way of doing anything we just endlessly do 222 00:12:29,236 --> 00:12:33,156 Speaker 1: weating and debating on farms. So we started classes for 223 00:12:33,196 --> 00:12:35,876 Speaker 1: them that hey, here's what you can do, and once 224 00:12:35,876 --> 00:12:38,516 Speaker 1: they started, almost all of them have been highly successful. 225 00:12:38,556 --> 00:12:43,236 Speaker 1: So describe your typical loan applicant and then tell me 226 00:12:43,316 --> 00:12:46,956 Speaker 1: the ways in which they're with your help their life 227 00:12:47,036 --> 00:12:49,956 Speaker 1: might change over the course of After the course, I'll 228 00:12:49,996 --> 00:12:52,316 Speaker 1: tell you, I'll take a rural example, if you don't mind. 229 00:12:52,636 --> 00:12:56,476 Speaker 1: So we have many of these widows. We've picked widows particularly. 230 00:12:56,516 --> 00:12:58,156 Speaker 1: You think that they will be old, but many of 231 00:12:58,156 --> 00:13:00,556 Speaker 1: them are very young. They're between twenty and forty years old. 232 00:13:00,956 --> 00:13:04,276 Speaker 1: Often they'll have two children or more. They will be 233 00:13:04,316 --> 00:13:07,556 Speaker 1: looking after their parents in law, who are typically old 234 00:13:07,596 --> 00:13:10,756 Speaker 1: and real. When we spend months and months telling them 235 00:13:10,756 --> 00:13:12,996 Speaker 1: you should do something, they'll say, we can't do anything. 236 00:13:13,316 --> 00:13:15,476 Speaker 1: We've had many women calling us up. When we call them, 237 00:13:15,476 --> 00:13:17,196 Speaker 1: they say, please don't call us, because you're going to 238 00:13:17,196 --> 00:13:19,276 Speaker 1: push us to do something and we can't do anything. 239 00:13:20,196 --> 00:13:22,276 Speaker 1: So one or we've had a few who've dropped out 240 00:13:22,316 --> 00:13:24,916 Speaker 1: for that reason. And eventually when we'll push them and 241 00:13:24,916 --> 00:13:26,876 Speaker 1: there's there'll be a lot of motivation and a lot 242 00:13:26,876 --> 00:13:30,916 Speaker 1: of counseling everything, and when they agree, just that act 243 00:13:30,996 --> 00:13:33,356 Speaker 1: of stepping out of the house to take our loan 244 00:13:33,556 --> 00:13:35,956 Speaker 1: or to take a grunt. Sometimes we've even given small 245 00:13:35,956 --> 00:13:37,676 Speaker 1: grunts when we feel they don't even have food in 246 00:13:37,676 --> 00:13:39,436 Speaker 1: the house. We've given them a grunt to start with. 247 00:13:40,036 --> 00:13:42,436 Speaker 1: So now they have a lot of fear in their 248 00:13:42,436 --> 00:13:44,516 Speaker 1: mind that if they were to sit. Let's say, we've 249 00:13:44,556 --> 00:13:46,476 Speaker 1: had a woman who sat outside on the street and 250 00:13:46,516 --> 00:13:49,716 Speaker 1: sold glass bangles, and people came and told her, you know, like, 251 00:13:49,756 --> 00:13:52,316 Speaker 1: have you forgotten. Women are supposed to stay within the house. 252 00:13:52,316 --> 00:13:54,156 Speaker 1: They're not supposed to be sitting on a street and 253 00:13:54,196 --> 00:13:57,476 Speaker 1: selling bangles. And at first she said, and then she 254 00:13:57,516 --> 00:13:59,396 Speaker 1: thought about everything she had learned in her glass and 255 00:13:59,436 --> 00:14:01,116 Speaker 1: she said, you know what, I'm doing this to look 256 00:14:01,116 --> 00:14:03,836 Speaker 1: after my children. If you will give me money for 257 00:14:03,916 --> 00:14:06,436 Speaker 1: my house, I will stop doing it. And just the 258 00:14:06,556 --> 00:14:10,596 Speaker 1: confidence to say that took a lot for her. But eventually, 259 00:14:10,636 --> 00:14:13,356 Speaker 1: she being a widow, it became very big in though 260 00:14:14,116 --> 00:14:16,396 Speaker 1: marriage market. As you know, Indian weddings are very big. 261 00:14:16,436 --> 00:14:19,516 Speaker 1: It'll always be bigger than what the parent can afford. 262 00:14:20,116 --> 00:14:23,836 Speaker 1: So she started walking miles and miles to different villages, saying, 263 00:14:23,876 --> 00:14:26,316 Speaker 1: here I can sell bangers and whatever else. It is 264 00:14:26,316 --> 00:14:29,276 Speaker 1: you need for a wedding, and so she would walk 265 00:14:29,356 --> 00:14:31,596 Speaker 1: something like ten to twenty miles a day. In spite 266 00:14:31,596 --> 00:14:34,836 Speaker 1: of having sickles cell anemia. She educated her daughter who's 267 00:14:34,876 --> 00:14:38,116 Speaker 1: now a teacher. She treated her son, she treated herself. 268 00:14:38,116 --> 00:14:41,836 Speaker 1: She had throat cancer and you know, but she never 269 00:14:41,876 --> 00:14:44,836 Speaker 1: stopped working through any of that because she knew that 270 00:14:44,836 --> 00:14:47,636 Speaker 1: that is what was keeping her family going. Another one 271 00:14:47,716 --> 00:14:50,156 Speaker 1: has educated her son is an engineer today. He works 272 00:14:50,156 --> 00:14:53,196 Speaker 1: for one of the biggest auto companies in India. Some 273 00:14:53,276 --> 00:14:55,676 Speaker 1: of them had mortgaged their gold and they brought it back. 274 00:14:56,156 --> 00:14:59,476 Speaker 1: So I think that first step is the hardest. So 275 00:14:59,516 --> 00:15:02,716 Speaker 1: in that case, the only you were talking about, you 276 00:15:02,796 --> 00:15:05,196 Speaker 1: did you begin with a grant or alone. We began 277 00:15:05,236 --> 00:15:07,636 Speaker 1: with a grunt and so the grant would have been 278 00:15:07,636 --> 00:15:11,476 Speaker 1: how large thousand rupees a month? Yeah, oh I see. 279 00:15:11,516 --> 00:15:13,756 Speaker 1: So it was an ongoing We gave it to her 280 00:15:13,796 --> 00:15:16,076 Speaker 1: for about a year yea. And by the end of 281 00:15:16,076 --> 00:15:17,956 Speaker 1: it she was supposed to do something. So she has 282 00:15:17,996 --> 00:15:20,956 Speaker 1: no obligations to repay this initial amount of money. We 283 00:15:21,036 --> 00:15:23,436 Speaker 1: actually visited her house and we saw that she had 284 00:15:23,476 --> 00:15:26,116 Speaker 1: no money even to eat and in that position, to 285 00:15:26,196 --> 00:15:29,196 Speaker 1: become another source of debt to her just didn't feel 286 00:15:29,276 --> 00:15:31,756 Speaker 1: right to us. So instead we said that in this 287 00:15:31,796 --> 00:15:34,756 Speaker 1: one year, we'll train you, we'll do anything that you want, 288 00:15:34,796 --> 00:15:36,516 Speaker 1: but by the end of this year, you need to 289 00:15:36,516 --> 00:15:40,156 Speaker 1: become self sufficient. So one of our people when she 290 00:15:40,236 --> 00:15:42,756 Speaker 1: finally she agreed and she decided to keep glass bangles. 291 00:15:42,796 --> 00:15:44,956 Speaker 1: And I remember two months later we decided to visit 292 00:15:44,956 --> 00:15:46,956 Speaker 1: her and we heard that yet she started her business 293 00:15:47,236 --> 00:15:49,196 Speaker 1: and she had a little piggie bank in her house 294 00:15:49,236 --> 00:15:51,236 Speaker 1: and she had kept all her earnings and that that 295 00:15:51,356 --> 00:15:53,676 Speaker 1: in case we came, she could give the money back 296 00:15:53,716 --> 00:15:57,836 Speaker 1: to us. Wow, that's how the degree of responsibility. So 297 00:15:57,916 --> 00:15:59,796 Speaker 1: how in that year, how long did it take her 298 00:15:59,796 --> 00:16:01,876 Speaker 1: to come up with the notion that she wanted to 299 00:16:01,876 --> 00:16:04,876 Speaker 1: do to sell glass Bengals. It took her several months. 300 00:16:04,876 --> 00:16:06,596 Speaker 1: At that point, we didn't have an office. We used 301 00:16:06,636 --> 00:16:10,356 Speaker 1: to sit under a tree thirty forty women, and you know, 302 00:16:10,396 --> 00:16:12,036 Speaker 1: they would all, what will you do? You know, it 303 00:16:12,076 --> 00:16:14,076 Speaker 1: was a deadlock where we would we would have forty 304 00:16:14,156 --> 00:16:16,076 Speaker 1: women sitting around and so, well, we will fund you, 305 00:16:16,076 --> 00:16:17,796 Speaker 1: you know, with a small amount of money, what would 306 00:16:17,796 --> 00:16:19,556 Speaker 1: you like to do? And they would say, we can't 307 00:16:19,596 --> 00:16:22,436 Speaker 1: do anything. And finally this One woman stood up and 308 00:16:22,436 --> 00:16:24,836 Speaker 1: she said, you know, I was pregnant when my husband died, 309 00:16:25,356 --> 00:16:27,476 Speaker 1: and now my son is five years old. I have 310 00:16:27,596 --> 00:16:30,316 Speaker 1: to do something. I don't care what anybody says. And 311 00:16:30,356 --> 00:16:32,516 Speaker 1: when the next time she came for the meeting and 312 00:16:32,516 --> 00:16:34,396 Speaker 1: she said, yes, I've started. I run a little like 313 00:16:34,396 --> 00:16:36,836 Speaker 1: a corner shop within my own house. It's running, I'm 314 00:16:36,876 --> 00:16:40,356 Speaker 1: earning money, and I feel so confident I can face anything. 315 00:16:40,876 --> 00:16:43,436 Speaker 1: And that gave confidence to other women as well, that yes, 316 00:16:43,556 --> 00:16:46,156 Speaker 1: we can do it too. It's a notion, this question 317 00:16:46,196 --> 00:16:50,276 Speaker 1: of there resists the reluctance to do something? Is it? 318 00:16:50,716 --> 00:16:52,676 Speaker 1: You said? How much of it is a product of 319 00:16:53,676 --> 00:16:57,236 Speaker 1: just how kind of traumatic and overwhelming your lives a been, 320 00:16:57,476 --> 00:16:59,596 Speaker 1: and how much of it is if they don't know, 321 00:17:00,236 --> 00:17:01,956 Speaker 1: they actually don't know what it would? I mean, if 322 00:17:01,996 --> 00:17:04,116 Speaker 1: you ask me to start a business tomorrow, I've taken 323 00:17:04,156 --> 00:17:05,876 Speaker 1: a long time figure what I would do right? How 324 00:17:05,956 --> 00:17:08,076 Speaker 1: much of it is simply that what on earth business 325 00:17:08,156 --> 00:17:11,116 Speaker 1: could I do even if I wanted to. It's both, 326 00:17:11,316 --> 00:17:14,156 Speaker 1: and we tackle both. You know. When we've had this deadlock, 327 00:17:14,236 --> 00:17:17,516 Speaker 1: we called a trainer in and he turned out to 328 00:17:17,516 --> 00:17:20,956 Speaker 1: be very nice because he actually he said, let's we 329 00:17:20,996 --> 00:17:23,956 Speaker 1: have a blackboard here right down. Why what are the 330 00:17:24,036 --> 00:17:26,276 Speaker 1: hurdles you face in doing a business. So some of 331 00:17:26,316 --> 00:17:28,276 Speaker 1: them said, well, I have no ideas. What would I do. 332 00:17:28,316 --> 00:17:30,276 Speaker 1: I've never done a business before. And he said, yeah, 333 00:17:30,276 --> 00:17:32,196 Speaker 1: that's fair. It takes a different kind of mindset to 334 00:17:32,236 --> 00:17:34,956 Speaker 1: be an entrepreneur. So he said he thought of the 335 00:17:35,036 --> 00:17:37,516 Speaker 1: smallest of things that they could do. I think it's 336 00:17:37,556 --> 00:17:40,236 Speaker 1: also a little bit of I wouldn't do lack is 337 00:17:40,276 --> 00:17:42,996 Speaker 1: a very strong word, but the lack of imagination, because 338 00:17:42,996 --> 00:17:45,436 Speaker 1: they don't know what urban markets are like. So he 339 00:17:45,476 --> 00:17:47,996 Speaker 1: gave them the most easy examples. He said, could you 340 00:17:48,036 --> 00:17:51,916 Speaker 1: sell crushed peanuts? Could you sell peeled sugar cane? And 341 00:17:51,996 --> 00:17:53,756 Speaker 1: he gave them this example. So you guys in a 342 00:17:53,836 --> 00:17:56,116 Speaker 1: village can just eat a sugar cane. You have strong teeth. 343 00:17:56,156 --> 00:17:58,716 Speaker 1: But people in cities they're not used to it. So 344 00:17:58,756 --> 00:18:00,316 Speaker 1: if you were just to peel a sugar cane and 345 00:18:00,316 --> 00:18:02,116 Speaker 1: sell it, you could earn so much more money. And 346 00:18:02,196 --> 00:18:04,636 Speaker 1: they were just surprised, you know. Or if you just 347 00:18:04,676 --> 00:18:06,436 Speaker 1: crushed chilies and sell it, you could earn a lot 348 00:18:06,476 --> 00:18:08,556 Speaker 1: more money, and they were just like, wow, I could 349 00:18:08,556 --> 00:18:11,516 Speaker 1: do this. So he just gave them hundreds of easy ideas. 350 00:18:11,876 --> 00:18:14,636 Speaker 1: Then one woman finally stood up and said, I worry 351 00:18:14,676 --> 00:18:17,276 Speaker 1: what are people going to say? And he reminded them 352 00:18:17,316 --> 00:18:22,836 Speaker 1: of a Bollywood song, like people are going to say something, 353 00:18:22,876 --> 00:18:25,276 Speaker 1: it's their job to say something. We don't need to 354 00:18:25,316 --> 00:18:28,076 Speaker 1: worry about those people. And suddenly this room full of 355 00:18:28,116 --> 00:18:31,076 Speaker 1: women was just giggling like he just made light of 356 00:18:31,116 --> 00:18:34,276 Speaker 1: the fact that, yes, that discrimination all that, that judgment 357 00:18:34,476 --> 00:18:36,756 Speaker 1: is there, and here let's deal with it head on. 358 00:18:36,916 --> 00:18:38,556 Speaker 1: So let's go back to the example of the woman 359 00:18:38,596 --> 00:18:42,156 Speaker 1: with the Bengals. So she gets a grant for a year, 360 00:18:42,516 --> 00:18:45,596 Speaker 1: a thousand rupees a month. Then she decides at some 361 00:18:45,716 --> 00:18:49,236 Speaker 1: point that she would like to she making the class 362 00:18:49,236 --> 00:18:51,556 Speaker 1: Bengals stuff. Now she's buying them from somewhere else and 363 00:18:52,276 --> 00:18:55,316 Speaker 1: buying them wholesale and selling them on the street. So 364 00:18:55,436 --> 00:18:57,676 Speaker 1: you then, at that point when she has this idea, 365 00:18:57,756 --> 00:19:00,316 Speaker 1: you then say, we'd like to give you a loan. Yes, 366 00:19:00,516 --> 00:19:02,556 Speaker 1: how much of a loan are you giving her? We 367 00:19:02,636 --> 00:19:05,836 Speaker 1: started with five thousand, She's now taken twenty five thousand 368 00:19:05,996 --> 00:19:08,876 Speaker 1: each time from us several times. Yeah, and she what 369 00:19:09,036 --> 00:19:11,276 Speaker 1: is the term of repayment on that twenty five thousand? 370 00:19:11,476 --> 00:19:14,356 Speaker 1: It's interest free. Who's interest free? Yeah, oh, I see, 371 00:19:14,676 --> 00:19:16,916 Speaker 1: and so but she is. So can you tell me 372 00:19:16,956 --> 00:19:19,596 Speaker 1: a little bit more about how kind of credit worthy 373 00:19:19,676 --> 00:19:23,156 Speaker 1: she has been. Yeah, she's been perfectly credit worthy. Actually, 374 00:19:23,156 --> 00:19:25,956 Speaker 1: in rural areas, we found people to be extremely credit 375 00:19:25,996 --> 00:19:29,676 Speaker 1: worthy because also, our loan is interest free, so we 376 00:19:29,716 --> 00:19:32,236 Speaker 1: do tell them. Even when demonetization happened, there were a 377 00:19:32,236 --> 00:19:35,036 Speaker 1: lot of politicians who came and told them, hey, you 378 00:19:35,076 --> 00:19:37,156 Speaker 1: don't need to repay et cetera, and we told them 379 00:19:37,156 --> 00:19:40,196 Speaker 1: to listen, our loan is interest free. So you know, 380 00:19:40,356 --> 00:19:42,116 Speaker 1: we have a bond with you. We're not doing this 381 00:19:42,156 --> 00:19:44,236 Speaker 1: because we're trying to make money off of you or 382 00:19:44,276 --> 00:19:46,956 Speaker 1: we are not like another money lender or something like that. 383 00:19:47,516 --> 00:19:49,276 Speaker 1: So you know, we want to have a long term 384 00:19:49,276 --> 00:19:51,556 Speaker 1: relationship with you, and when you return your money, we 385 00:19:51,636 --> 00:19:53,756 Speaker 1: give it, give it to somebody else who needs it, 386 00:19:53,836 --> 00:19:56,956 Speaker 1: just like yourself. Yeah, so she is she going to 387 00:19:57,036 --> 00:19:59,996 Speaker 1: be using you in perpetuity as a revolving man of credit. 388 00:20:00,276 --> 00:20:02,356 Speaker 1: So we are we are grappling with that at this 389 00:20:02,396 --> 00:20:04,996 Speaker 1: point because she's been with us for now. This is 390 00:20:04,996 --> 00:20:08,716 Speaker 1: our ninth year, so she wants to graduate to bigger loans. 391 00:20:09,196 --> 00:20:11,876 Speaker 1: She also took a loan to take a tailoring machine. 392 00:20:11,956 --> 00:20:15,476 Speaker 1: She makes starry blouses. She's very highly enterprising, so she'll 393 00:20:15,516 --> 00:20:18,236 Speaker 1: have bangals, she'll have jewelry, she'll have anything that sells 394 00:20:18,236 --> 00:20:23,116 Speaker 1: in the manage market, flowers, flower pots. Every time I go, 395 00:20:23,156 --> 00:20:26,396 Speaker 1: I find something new that she's selling. So, yes, she 396 00:20:26,436 --> 00:20:28,796 Speaker 1: can take a bigger loan and she can RepA it. 397 00:20:29,396 --> 00:20:31,796 Speaker 1: Can she go to a bank? Would a bank be 398 00:20:31,916 --> 00:20:34,996 Speaker 1: interested in her? Maybe? Or maybe not? No. This is 399 00:20:34,996 --> 00:20:39,316 Speaker 1: interesting because I would have thought that eventually people would 400 00:20:39,316 --> 00:20:41,636 Speaker 1: graduate out of your program and the banks would see 401 00:20:42,196 --> 00:20:43,996 Speaker 1: this is a woman who's now been an entrepreneur for 402 00:20:44,076 --> 00:20:47,236 Speaker 1: nine years. She can presumably the bank can come to 403 00:20:47,316 --> 00:20:49,796 Speaker 1: you and say, what is your credit history? And you 404 00:20:49,836 --> 00:20:52,476 Speaker 1: can tell you can tell them what a good credit 405 00:20:52,596 --> 00:20:55,236 Speaker 1: risk she has been. What would be problematic for a 406 00:20:55,276 --> 00:20:59,076 Speaker 1: bank about this woman? See, banks don't always have that 407 00:20:59,236 --> 00:21:02,716 Speaker 1: last mile reach. We've tried this in our urban project 408 00:21:02,716 --> 00:21:05,796 Speaker 1: and it's done. It has been successful, but not completely 409 00:21:05,796 --> 00:21:08,876 Speaker 1: successful because the bank will not come to your house 410 00:21:08,876 --> 00:21:11,236 Speaker 1: to take the loan. The bank will tell you come 411 00:21:11,276 --> 00:21:13,636 Speaker 1: to our branch and pay the loan. If you don't 412 00:21:13,636 --> 00:21:16,116 Speaker 1: repay on a particular day, we'll call you. The bank 413 00:21:16,196 --> 00:21:18,276 Speaker 1: may not necessarily call you. They will just say al 414 00:21:18,276 --> 00:21:22,156 Speaker 1: a defaulter, So that last mile connectivity that we provide 415 00:21:22,276 --> 00:21:25,356 Speaker 1: is not necessarily provided by a bank. Having said that, 416 00:21:25,396 --> 00:21:27,716 Speaker 1: we have had borrowers who have taken bank loans and 417 00:21:27,756 --> 00:21:31,516 Speaker 1: repaid bank loans as well. Is the idea to be 418 00:21:31,676 --> 00:21:33,596 Speaker 1: the primary source of credit for a large group of 419 00:21:33,596 --> 00:21:36,316 Speaker 1: people or to be constantly graduating people out into the 420 00:21:36,996 --> 00:21:39,756 Speaker 1: into the commercial credit market. Yeah, we would like to 421 00:21:39,796 --> 00:21:42,836 Speaker 1: stay at the bottom of the pyramid. Those who get successful, 422 00:21:42,876 --> 00:21:44,756 Speaker 1: we would like them to be bankable. We would like 423 00:21:44,836 --> 00:21:47,476 Speaker 1: them to grow their businesses. But yes, this is a 424 00:21:47,516 --> 00:21:50,236 Speaker 1: conundrum that we face. How do you raise the money 425 00:21:50,236 --> 00:21:52,236 Speaker 1: that you Where does the money come from? For your 426 00:21:52,396 --> 00:21:55,796 Speaker 1: pool of capital? We get grunts and we also take 427 00:21:55,916 --> 00:22:00,116 Speaker 1: some low interest of social sector loans, like we had 428 00:22:00,116 --> 00:22:02,956 Speaker 1: a loan from the Social Business Fund, so that came 429 00:22:02,996 --> 00:22:05,076 Speaker 1: to us at a lower interest rate. And what are 430 00:22:05,116 --> 00:22:07,556 Speaker 1: your if you look at your total pool of capital, 431 00:22:07,956 --> 00:22:09,596 Speaker 1: how much of that is grants and how much of 432 00:22:09,596 --> 00:22:12,516 Speaker 1: that is loans? At this point it would be almost 433 00:22:12,596 --> 00:22:15,636 Speaker 1: equal grants and low interests. So some portion of your 434 00:22:15,676 --> 00:22:19,356 Speaker 1: capital is being returned. But but the point of grants 435 00:22:19,956 --> 00:22:22,796 Speaker 1: is always to get someone stable enough so that they 436 00:22:23,076 --> 00:22:25,156 Speaker 1: are taking out loans. So it's kind of now, that's 437 00:22:25,196 --> 00:22:28,236 Speaker 1: sort of super interesting that what you're doing essentially is 438 00:22:28,276 --> 00:22:31,836 Speaker 1: preparing people to enter the credit market. Yeah, and also 439 00:22:32,516 --> 00:22:35,996 Speaker 1: sort of credit related behavior. Just we already have a 440 00:22:36,036 --> 00:22:38,476 Speaker 1: credit history that we create with them. Their first credit 441 00:22:38,556 --> 00:22:40,196 Speaker 1: history is created with us. We have a pass, but 442 00:22:40,356 --> 00:22:42,276 Speaker 1: we show them that yes, every week, this person is 443 00:22:42,316 --> 00:22:44,956 Speaker 1: repaying every week, or they've had so many cycles of loans, 444 00:22:45,396 --> 00:22:47,716 Speaker 1: so they are now credit worthy. They have the kind 445 00:22:47,716 --> 00:22:51,156 Speaker 1: of behavior that you would like from a borrow What 446 00:22:51,236 --> 00:22:53,916 Speaker 1: are the most surprising things you've learned over the course 447 00:22:53,956 --> 00:22:56,196 Speaker 1: of that nine years. I mean, I'm guessing what you're 448 00:22:56,236 --> 00:22:58,556 Speaker 1: doing now does not match your expectations of what you 449 00:22:58,596 --> 00:23:01,236 Speaker 1: thought you would be doing nine years ago. Yeah, it doesn't. 450 00:23:01,996 --> 00:23:05,436 Speaker 1: So in the rural Project, what surprised me was that 451 00:23:05,716 --> 00:23:09,036 Speaker 1: the most difficult step was the first step. They were 452 00:23:09,276 --> 00:23:11,796 Speaker 1: a lot of exclusion. There was a lot of even abuse. 453 00:23:11,916 --> 00:23:13,876 Speaker 1: There was a lot of like, oh, if your husband 454 00:23:13,916 --> 00:23:15,756 Speaker 1: is dead, you no more have anything to do with us, 455 00:23:15,756 --> 00:23:18,076 Speaker 1: and we can treat you any way we like. While 456 00:23:18,076 --> 00:23:19,996 Speaker 1: I knew that it existed, I think it was more 457 00:23:20,036 --> 00:23:22,476 Speaker 1: than what I thought it was, And that made that 458 00:23:22,596 --> 00:23:26,236 Speaker 1: mountain in their mind tremendous to come out of that, 459 00:23:26,356 --> 00:23:29,276 Speaker 1: to do something, to fight that fight that yes, I 460 00:23:29,316 --> 00:23:31,636 Speaker 1: can do something and I will do it. To have 461 00:23:31,756 --> 00:23:35,356 Speaker 1: that confidence was the most difficult thing. Having started. Very 462 00:23:35,396 --> 00:23:37,676 Speaker 1: few have failed and you going in and thought it 463 00:23:37,716 --> 00:23:40,796 Speaker 1: would be the reverse. Yes, in urban areas. What has 464 00:23:40,836 --> 00:23:42,836 Speaker 1: surprised me? And I mean, I could be wrong, but 465 00:23:42,916 --> 00:23:46,036 Speaker 1: this is my personal experience. I feel that urban poverty 466 00:23:46,116 --> 00:23:50,436 Speaker 1: lacks dignity and there's a tremendous fragility to urban poverty, 467 00:23:50,636 --> 00:23:53,756 Speaker 1: even with our loans. What disappoints me is I don't 468 00:23:53,756 --> 00:23:58,036 Speaker 1: necessarily see people getting to the next stage very easily 469 00:23:59,396 --> 00:24:02,796 Speaker 1: because there's very little social security in India, so one 470 00:24:02,836 --> 00:24:07,076 Speaker 1: illness or you know, like a wedding, can just wipe 471 00:24:07,076 --> 00:24:10,236 Speaker 1: out their savings. I remember we had this. We had 472 00:24:10,236 --> 00:24:12,556 Speaker 1: this one moment who was a fruit seller in Bombay 473 00:24:12,676 --> 00:24:14,796 Speaker 1: and on a handcut. She used to sell fruit and 474 00:24:14,796 --> 00:24:16,516 Speaker 1: she was doing very well. We paid her three we 475 00:24:16,556 --> 00:24:18,476 Speaker 1: gave her three or four loans and one day I 476 00:24:18,476 --> 00:24:22,116 Speaker 1: was just walking through her community and I saw her 477 00:24:22,276 --> 00:24:24,836 Speaker 1: standing there in her fruit cart and it was totally empty. 478 00:24:25,036 --> 00:24:26,716 Speaker 1: So I got very upset with her. I said what 479 00:24:26,796 --> 00:24:29,036 Speaker 1: are you doing? And she just started crying. And she 480 00:24:29,116 --> 00:24:31,556 Speaker 1: was a middle aged woman. I suppose why are you crying? 481 00:24:31,676 --> 00:24:33,596 Speaker 1: And she said, you should have come a week ago. 482 00:24:33,636 --> 00:24:35,836 Speaker 1: Why did you come today? I had so much fruit? 483 00:24:36,156 --> 00:24:37,916 Speaker 1: You didn't come then? So I said, well, what did 484 00:24:37,916 --> 00:24:39,356 Speaker 1: you do with all the money? She said, you know, 485 00:24:39,436 --> 00:24:43,196 Speaker 1: my father, he died in and we had my brothers 486 00:24:43,196 --> 00:24:46,396 Speaker 1: told me that we need to do the funeral immediately. 487 00:24:46,836 --> 00:24:48,596 Speaker 1: So I used all the money I had. I took 488 00:24:48,596 --> 00:24:51,556 Speaker 1: a flight and I went to and she was very 489 00:24:51,596 --> 00:24:54,556 Speaker 1: proud of it that she thought, what better he could 490 00:24:54,596 --> 00:24:57,516 Speaker 1: my money bet that I could go for my father's funeral. 491 00:24:58,156 --> 00:25:00,116 Speaker 1: And if I didn't have this money, I couldn't have 492 00:25:00,156 --> 00:25:03,436 Speaker 1: been able to attend it. So small, I wouldn't say 493 00:25:03,436 --> 00:25:05,836 Speaker 1: this is a small thing, but like medical expenses or 494 00:25:05,876 --> 00:25:09,676 Speaker 1: wedding related expenses. Educated they're very aspirational to educate their children. 495 00:25:09,676 --> 00:25:13,076 Speaker 1: There's been a huge move from government schools to private schools, 496 00:25:13,116 --> 00:25:16,036 Speaker 1: low cost private schools, and they will pay whatever it 497 00:25:16,076 --> 00:25:20,036 Speaker 1: takes to shift their children to private schools. And the 498 00:25:20,116 --> 00:25:22,956 Speaker 1: pressure for that, I feel sometimes is spared more by 499 00:25:22,996 --> 00:25:25,836 Speaker 1: women than by you. You're not arguing with her choices, 500 00:25:26,236 --> 00:25:28,916 Speaker 1: You're saying that that is a that is the outcome 501 00:25:28,956 --> 00:25:31,756 Speaker 1: that they want. In many of these, do you feel 502 00:25:31,756 --> 00:25:33,916 Speaker 1: that their lives are very fragile? You know, if we 503 00:25:33,996 --> 00:25:36,556 Speaker 1: go into it with a degree of innocence thinking, oh, 504 00:25:36,596 --> 00:25:38,356 Speaker 1: I paid you fifty that whatever, we give you a 505 00:25:38,356 --> 00:25:40,916 Speaker 1: loan of fifty thousand rupees. By now you should have X, 506 00:25:41,076 --> 00:25:43,516 Speaker 1: y Z, But we don't realize that they are. They're 507 00:25:43,516 --> 00:25:47,556 Speaker 1: facing headwinds from really everywhere. So in that case of 508 00:25:47,596 --> 00:25:50,116 Speaker 1: the woman with the root stand, what did you do next? 509 00:25:50,756 --> 00:25:53,236 Speaker 1: We continue to lend and she's doing well. Now someone 510 00:25:53,316 --> 00:25:55,556 Speaker 1: like her who's been running a fruit card for so long, 511 00:25:55,796 --> 00:25:58,436 Speaker 1: I would think she should now have a shop. She 512 00:25:58,436 --> 00:26:00,476 Speaker 1: should be able to render shop and have a shop. 513 00:26:00,676 --> 00:26:04,196 Speaker 1: So that taking that next step out of poverty is 514 00:26:04,236 --> 00:26:07,156 Speaker 1: just a huge step, just because of all the headwinds 515 00:26:07,156 --> 00:26:10,356 Speaker 1: that they face. Too. Finals one is give me a 516 00:26:10,396 --> 00:26:14,516 Speaker 1: sense of what a typical day looks like for you, 517 00:26:15,236 --> 00:26:17,796 Speaker 1: Either me or my father will personally meet an interview 518 00:26:17,836 --> 00:26:21,476 Speaker 1: everyone who comes for a loan. So usually they come 519 00:26:21,516 --> 00:26:24,476 Speaker 1: to our office, but by the same token we do 520 00:26:24,596 --> 00:26:26,316 Speaker 1: go out on the field just to see what are 521 00:26:26,316 --> 00:26:28,676 Speaker 1: they up to these days. I've been researching a ways 522 00:26:28,796 --> 00:26:31,196 Speaker 1: picking communities. So I go to the garbage landfill of 523 00:26:31,236 --> 00:26:35,236 Speaker 1: Bombay at least every week, climb up, try to see 524 00:26:35,356 --> 00:26:37,316 Speaker 1: what people are picking, what are they buying, what are 525 00:26:37,316 --> 00:26:41,076 Speaker 1: they eating in their house? Because even to understand their 526 00:26:41,116 --> 00:26:44,236 Speaker 1: household finances it's not necessarily written neatly on a firm. 527 00:26:44,276 --> 00:26:46,436 Speaker 1: It's also by knowing what did you have for dinner 528 00:26:46,516 --> 00:26:49,076 Speaker 1: last night? What did you do for a festival? How 529 00:26:49,076 --> 00:26:51,036 Speaker 1: did you celebrate a festival? Could you buy clothes for 530 00:26:51,156 --> 00:26:54,556 Speaker 1: the festival? Or your medical expenses how are you meeting 531 00:26:54,556 --> 00:26:58,276 Speaker 1: those medical expenses? And that often helps to strengthen communities 532 00:26:59,076 --> 00:27:01,796 Speaker 1: rather than just pouring cash in that community. So we 533 00:27:01,876 --> 00:27:05,396 Speaker 1: do run a few after school classes, I clinics, so 534 00:27:05,476 --> 00:27:07,396 Speaker 1: based on the feedback that we get from them, we 535 00:27:07,476 --> 00:27:11,476 Speaker 1: do try to resolve their problems in non financial ways 536 00:27:11,556 --> 00:27:13,836 Speaker 1: as well. Are the things that ordinary people can do 537 00:27:14,076 --> 00:27:17,836 Speaker 1: to help. They can do a lot to help. First 538 00:27:17,836 --> 00:27:20,436 Speaker 1: of all, I think that I myself and I think 539 00:27:20,476 --> 00:27:23,276 Speaker 1: anybody hearing about these women, they can be inspired by 540 00:27:23,276 --> 00:27:26,476 Speaker 1: these women. And then yes, they can get involved in 541 00:27:26,516 --> 00:27:28,636 Speaker 1: any way they like, whether it is by teaching, by 542 00:27:28,676 --> 00:27:33,436 Speaker 1: donating money, by just spreading the world around all of them. 543 00:27:35,076 --> 00:27:38,236 Speaker 1: The great writer Jonathan Swift said that a wise person 544 00:27:38,276 --> 00:27:40,836 Speaker 1: should have money in their head, but not in their heart, 545 00:27:41,476 --> 00:27:43,716 Speaker 1: and that's what kept coming through for me when I 546 00:27:43,756 --> 00:27:47,276 Speaker 1: listened to that interview. Also handy, of course, is money 547 00:27:47,276 --> 00:27:51,116 Speaker 1: in your pocket and the transformative power of investing in 548 00:27:51,196 --> 00:27:54,636 Speaker 1: people For the first time, that sounded so real and 549 00:27:54,756 --> 00:27:58,876 Speaker 1: incredibly empowering. India remains one of the fastest growing major 550 00:27:58,956 --> 00:28:02,436 Speaker 1: economies in the world, and it's impossible not to watch 551 00:28:02,516 --> 00:28:05,836 Speaker 1: in awe as the country surges toward a brighter future 552 00:28:06,156 --> 00:28:12,196 Speaker 1: with digitization, globalization and favorable demographics. But poverty is hard 553 00:28:12,236 --> 00:28:15,876 Speaker 1: to shake and many people will stay stuck there unless 554 00:28:15,916 --> 00:28:20,316 Speaker 1: financial opportunities are inclusive and fair. India has a chance 555 00:28:20,356 --> 00:28:24,196 Speaker 1: to refuse to repeat the mistakes of other countries. Today's 556 00:28:24,236 --> 00:28:27,316 Speaker 1: Solvable the work Zamia and her dad do at the 557 00:28:27,396 --> 00:28:32,396 Speaker 1: Vandana Foundation providing financial opportunities while la can help everybody 558 00:28:32,436 --> 00:28:37,996 Speaker 1: to win. Solvable is a collaboration between Pushkin Industries and 559 00:28:38,076 --> 00:28:42,396 Speaker 1: the Rockefella Foundation, with production by Laura Hyde, Hester Kant, 560 00:28:42,516 --> 00:28:46,276 Speaker 1: Laura Sheeter, and Ruth Barnes from Chalk and Blade. Pushkin's 561 00:28:46,276 --> 00:28:51,236 Speaker 1: executive producer is Nia LaBelle. Research by Sheer, Vincent Engineering 562 00:28:51,276 --> 00:28:54,996 Speaker 1: by Jason Gambrel and the great folks at GSI Studios. 563 00:28:55,476 --> 00:28:59,156 Speaker 1: Original music composed by Pascal Wise and special thanks to 564 00:28:59,396 --> 00:29:04,436 Speaker 1: Maggie Taylor, Heather Fine, Julia Barton, Carly Mgliori, Jacob Weisberg, 565 00:29:04,516 --> 00:29:08,076 Speaker 1: and Malcolm Gladwell. You can learn more about solving today's 566 00:29:08,116 --> 00:29:13,756 Speaker 1: biggest problems at Rockefeller Foundation dot org slash salvable. I'm 567 00:29:13,796 --> 00:29:15,756 Speaker 1: Mave Higgins. Now go solve it.