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Speaker 1: What's the point of building bigger and bigger colliders other

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Speaker 1: than the obvious fun and awesomeness of it all. It's

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Speaker 1: a machine that opens up the sub atomic world. It's

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Speaker 1: not just because we like to see things go boom,

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Speaker 1: though of course we do, but because we want to

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Speaker 1: know what happens when you pull things apart. What's inside me,

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Speaker 1: what's inside you, what's inside everything. At the root of

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Speaker 1: it all is a desire to dig as deep as

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Speaker 1: we can into the very nature of matter, to hope

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Speaker 1: to reveal its inner workings and understand how it all

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Speaker 1: comes together to make our amazing, crazy and delicious world.

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Speaker 1: Is the universe made of quarks and leptons and dark matter?

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Speaker 1: Or is it made of strings or shmings or bada bings?

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Speaker 1: Right now we don't know. We might never know, or

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Speaker 1: one day and we might build a collider powerful enough

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Speaker 1: to show us the universe's fundamental lego bricks. Then we

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Speaker 1: can turned to the philosophers and ask them, hey, so

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Speaker 1: what does this mean? Dude? But what if we don't

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Speaker 1: get the billions to build a bigger collider? Is that

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Speaker 1: the only way forward? Can we find some other clever

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Speaker 1: way to get this information through the universe's back door.

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Speaker 1: That's what we're going to talk about on today's episode.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe, brought to you

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Speaker 1: by all the tiny particles that make it possible.

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Speaker 2: Hello. I'm Kelly leader Smith. I'm a parasitologist who also

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Speaker 2: studies space, and I'm wondering if today we're going to

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Speaker 2: be talking about something that Daniel studies staring his day job.

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Speaker 1: Hi. I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and my job

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Speaker 1: is to play with taxpayer funded billion dollar toys.

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Speaker 2: Ooh, my job usually involves playing with fish bomb and

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Speaker 2: I think your job might be better.

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Speaker 1: I hope nobody I've ever paid a billion dollars for

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Speaker 1: fish vomit.

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Speaker 2: There are some important questions that can get answered with

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Speaker 2: a lot of fish vomit. But yeah, probably not a

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Speaker 2: billion dollars worth. I'll give you that. Maybe a million

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Speaker 2: dollars worth. So you work at the LAC and we're

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Speaker 2: going to be talking about research happening at the LAC.

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Speaker 2: Is the thing that we're talking about today? Is this

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Speaker 2: a question that you were working on or what does

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Speaker 2: your lab do exactly? Daniel?

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Speaker 1: Mostly I take naps, in my office. Isn't that enough?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure everyone feels great about where their taxpayer

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Speaker 2: dollars are going right now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a fair question. What is Daniel actually do

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Speaker 1: all day? We should have a whole episode where I

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Speaker 1: talk about my research, But very briefly, in the last

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Speaker 1: ten years or so, I was looking for dark matter

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Speaker 1: at the Large Hadron Collider, smashing particles together, hoping to

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Speaker 1: make dark matter particles which would leave an invisible signature

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Speaker 1: which is really hard to pick out, and using machine

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Speaker 1: learning to try to filter those patterns out from all

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Speaker 1: of the noise, which is a fun challenge. But then

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Speaker 1: dark matter sort of became too popular at the Large

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Speaker 1: Hadron Collider and everybody was doing it, and there wasn't

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Speaker 1: a whole lot of opportunity to like do new clever stuff.

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Speaker 1: So more recently I've pivoted to looking for weird, unexpected stuff. Like,

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Speaker 1: we know that dark matter is out there, we should

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Speaker 1: be able to see at the collider, so let's go

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Speaker 1: look for it. That makes sense. But what would be

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Speaker 1: even more exciting to me is to find something that

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Speaker 1: nobody expected, a discovery that makes people go, what, that's impossible,

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Speaker 1: or that's crazy or huh, how could that even be

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Speaker 1: something that nobody expected? And that's hard to do because

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Speaker 1: you sort of have to have an idea for what

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Speaker 1: you're looking for in order to go looking for it.

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Speaker 1: But we use some cool machine learning tools, anomaly detection

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Speaker 1: and all sorts of other algorithms to try to make

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Speaker 1: mathematical what we're looking for, what we're not looking for,

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Speaker 1: and to figure out clever ways to look for it.

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Speaker 1: So that's one of the things that I'm focusing on

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Speaker 1: more recently, is looking for anomalies.

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Speaker 2: It's always so interesting to me the way the questions

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Speaker 2: that we ask are influenced by things like, well, what

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Speaker 2: are other people asking? And too many people are asking this,

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Speaker 2: and so I'm going to move on to something else.

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Speaker 2: And there's a lot of like social and funding things

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Speaker 2: that go into the decision about what to study. I

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Speaker 2: guess it makes sense. We're all humans doing work.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's definitely a lot of that. But I think

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Speaker 1: people also underestimate how personal science is. Like people ask

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Speaker 1: questions because those are their personal questions, and we all

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Speaker 1: benefit from that, like the fact that some people are

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Speaker 1: weirdly into fish guts, you know, we learn cool stuff

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Speaker 1: about the universe. Because of that, and because some people

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Speaker 1: want to stay up late looking into telescopes or get

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Speaker 1: their socks wet in the rainforest counting spiders. Because different

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Speaker 1: people enjoy different kinds of activities and have different questions,

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Speaker 1: we get to learn about all lots of different kinds

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Speaker 1: of science. And so you know, there's no like magic

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Speaker 1: sorting hat that tells people what science to do. They

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Speaker 1: just follow their instincts and also, you know, look for

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Speaker 1: opportunities for sure. But I think it really reflects the

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Speaker 1: sort of breadth of human curiosity, all the different kinds

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Speaker 1: of science that we have, and I think that's all

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Speaker 1: wonderful and delicious.

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Speaker 2: I absolutely agree limitless human curiosity. You can be interested

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Speaker 2: in fish, vomits, leeches, or dark matter or anything in between,

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Speaker 2: and even chemistry.

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Speaker 1: Don't go that far. You know, I was going to

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Speaker 1: say dark matter fish vomit, Like maybe dark fish's vomit

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Speaker 1: up dark matter vomit. That would be pretty awesome. That

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Speaker 1: would be like where our research overlaps.

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. Yes, I hope somebody will fund the

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Speaker 2: intersection of our research interests. Let's write to the NSF

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Speaker 2: and find out.

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Speaker 1: But more broadly, There's something really cool about the Large

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Speaker 1: A Drunk Collider, which is that it lets you do

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Speaker 1: lots of different kinds of things. People have the idea

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Speaker 1: that the Large A Drunk Collider is like an experiment

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Speaker 1: that I do and then somebody else get the turn

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Speaker 1: they do an experiment. In reality, it's the same experiment.

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Speaker 1: It's just running twenty four to seven collecting very very

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Speaker 1: general data, and people can ask different kinds of questions

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Speaker 1: about it. People can be like, hey, dude, we find

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Speaker 1: a new particle. People can be like, hey, are the

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Speaker 1: particles we've seen do they behave the way we expected?

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Speaker 1: Or also like is is there anything weird in the data?

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Speaker 1: You can ask all these different kinds of questions with

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Speaker 1: the same data from the same setup, and so it's

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Speaker 1: very general and very powerful in that way, which I

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Speaker 1: love because it lets you pivot easily from different kinds

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Speaker 1: of questions.

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Speaker 2: So, what is the experiment that's constantly running in the LHC.

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Speaker 2: And I'm always going to call it Hadron and embarrass myself.

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Speaker 2: So I'm just going to call it the LHC to

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Speaker 2: avoid that.

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Speaker 1: What's embarrassing about saying Hadron is it because it's so

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Speaker 1: close to another word you're afraid of saying.

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Speaker 2: Yeah it is.

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Speaker 1: That's not family friendly.

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Speaker 2: You called out Wienersmith.

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Speaker 1: It's true, the large Wienersmith collider. Yeah, what is the experiment? Essentially,

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Speaker 1: it's just a big camera around a collision point. You

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Speaker 1: smash particles together, and then you try to capture all

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Speaker 1: the debris that comes out to get it's much information

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Speaker 1: about the collision and the aftermath, so you can piece

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Speaker 1: together what happened because you can't see the actual collision directly,

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Speaker 1: Like when the quarks annihilate, you don't get to see

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Speaker 1: that happen. You just get to see what they turn into.

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Speaker 1: So we have these layers of detectors around the collision

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Speaker 1: point to take information about those particles so we can

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Speaker 1: reconstruct their trajectories and their energies and their angles and

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Speaker 1: all sorts of stuff and figure out what happened. And

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Speaker 1: we just do that for every collision, no matter what.

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Speaker 2: And is it like today we're just running electrons through there,

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Speaker 2: or it's like whatever particles happen to be in there

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Speaker 2: we're going to run into, or you know, is there

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Speaker 2: like a certain combination. What do you start with?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we just go outside and take a scoop of stuff,

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Speaker 1: toss it in the collider and see what happened.

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Speaker 2: It's like, oh my gosh, you're like biologists.

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Speaker 1: We're colliding fish bombit today. No, the collider is very

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Speaker 1: sensitive and very carefully tuned, so you have to put

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Speaker 1: the right stuff in and tune it. Most of the

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Speaker 1: time it runs protons, and so you just start from hydrogen.

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Speaker 1: You kick off the electrons, you give them energy, and

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Speaker 1: you separate them using their charges. You have pure protons

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Speaker 1: and you collide those. The previous collider I worked at

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Speaker 1: in Chicago, the Tepatron, collided protons and anti protons, so

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Speaker 1: you have to make a source of anti protons a

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Speaker 1: whole other factory. That was too complicated. So for the

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Speaker 1: next collider, the Large Hadron Collider is just protons and protons,

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Speaker 1: but sometimes we do other stuff. Sometimes we put lead

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Speaker 1: in there or gold atoms and smash them together because

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Speaker 1: you can ask all sorts of interesting questions when you

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Speaker 1: have like zillions of protons smashing together. It's called heavy

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Speaker 1: ion physics. So yeah, the Large Adron collider is pretty flexible.

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Speaker 1: You can collide other kinds of stuff, not just protons,

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Speaker 1: probably not fish guts though.

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Speaker 2: That's disappointing, but I guess we'll keep talking about physics anyway.

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Speaker 2: And so is it like you know, Fridays or the

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Speaker 2: gold days, or just somebody like gets a grant and

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Speaker 2: that's the day you do the gold ions or whatever instead.

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Speaker 1: No, it's like ninety five percent protons. That's the main physics.

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Speaker 1: And then occasionally we'll do a run with gold or

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Speaker 1: with lead or something else, but it's mostly just proton

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Speaker 1: proton physics. That's the bread and butter. The large Adron collider,

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Speaker 1: and it's decided some very high level of committees ascerned.

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Speaker 1: It is like a collection of dozens of countries, and

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Speaker 1: so everything's decided by committees that take forever, and so

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Speaker 1: it's very bureaucratic. Even the way we publish a paper

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Speaker 1: is very bureaucratic. We have five thousand authors on a

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Speaker 1: paper and everybody gets to read it and comment on it.

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Speaker 1: So you know, you put a paper through and somebody's

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Speaker 1: like add a comma, and somebody else is like remove

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Speaker 1: that comments. We also know add that comment, put that comments.

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Speaker 1: It's very slow and frustrating, but it's also wonderful to

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Speaker 1: work with people from all over the world.

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Speaker 2: You have a very nuanced viewpoint on it. That's great.

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Speaker 2: I do get frustrated by those bureaucracy, like who cares

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Speaker 2: about the comma, Let's just get the paper done. But

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Speaker 2: on the other hand, I'm sure you get lots of

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Speaker 2: great ideas you wouldn't have gotten otherwise and it was

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Speaker 2: just two people working together on the paper.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but the particle collider is very powerful and it

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Speaker 1: lets you do things like look for new kind of

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Speaker 1: particles directly. But also I think this underappreciated, is that

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Speaker 1: there are indirect ways to discover new particles without actually

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Speaker 1: seeing them. And that's the thing I want to talk

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Speaker 1: about today. How we can use that potentially to see

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Speaker 1: inside particles, to learn about what's going on inside the

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Speaker 1: particles we think might be fundamental.

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Speaker 2: All right, well, and today we're going to be talking

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Speaker 2: about how can we see what's inside the electron? And

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Speaker 2: we asked our amazing listeners, who are always insightful, to

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Speaker 2: tell us what they think the answer is to how

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Speaker 2: can we see inside an electron? So let's go ahead

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Speaker 2: and hear. What they had to say is that in order.

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Speaker 1: To see things at that scale, we would need a

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Speaker 1: solar system sized particle collider. If we wanted to try

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Speaker 1: to see inside of it, we'd probably have to smash

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Speaker 1: other particles into it, and we just have to smash

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Speaker 1: them together block we do everything else. To see inside

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Speaker 1: an electron, we would need to probe it with something

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Speaker 1: that has a wavelength that's smaller than the electron.

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Speaker 3: I thought that we couldn't. I thought electrons a fundamental

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Speaker 3: and there's nothing in there.

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Speaker 1: Because we could crash them together with high energy particle physics,

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Speaker 1: can we actually see inside of an electrons? You can't

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Speaker 1: smash electrons together, so maybe you do it with neutrinos.

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Speaker 2: We might only be able just to look at the

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Speaker 2: outside of it, and there might not be anything different

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Speaker 2: on the inside.

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Speaker 1: I think that electrons are fundamental particles.

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Speaker 3: By colliding it with other electrons or other particles and

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Speaker 3: seeing what comes.

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Speaker 2: Out, it's various quantum states. When probed multiple times with

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Speaker 2: perhaps light, will generate some sort of semblance of a structure.

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Speaker 1: With a very powerful microscope and a lot of imagination,

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Speaker 1: get some pliers and a set of thirty weight ball bearings.

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Speaker 1: It's all about ball bearings nowadays.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I'm pretty certain Daniel's job is smashing particles together

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Speaker 3: and seeing their guts when they pop out. So that's

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Speaker 3: my guess. Or maybe the answer is math, but that's

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Speaker 3: not nearly as exciting.

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Speaker 1: I'm imagining something like X ray crystallography, like Rosalind Franklin

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Speaker 1: saw the structure of DNA, but much much more sensitive.

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Speaker 1: I mean electron microscope. It's right there in the name.

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Speaker 2: Wait wait wait wait wait, I see where this is going.

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Speaker 3: Are you asking for more funds to build an even

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Speaker 3: larger particle collider?

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Speaker 1: As far as I know, there's not an insight of

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Speaker 1: the electron to see.

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Speaker 4: You like collide electrons together and when they hit each other,

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Speaker 4: they like four minutees a big explosion, like a big

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Speaker 4: like a big electronic explosion, and when and when that happens,

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Speaker 4: it will there's like a giant microscope over it, and

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Speaker 4: there's like somebody looking through the microscope and they like

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Speaker 4: see what comes out of the explosion.

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Speaker 1: M magnets. Thanks to everybody who's sent in these answers.

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Speaker 1: If you would like to play for future episodes, don't

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Speaker 1: be shy. Write to us two questions at Danielandkelly dot org.

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Speaker 1: We want to hear from you and we want your

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Speaker 1: voice on the podcast. I love that so many people

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Speaker 1: said smash them together. These are particle physicists and folks

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Speaker 1: after my heart.

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Speaker 2: They've been listening to you. I think they've been listening

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Speaker 2: to the show for a while. I like the one

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Speaker 2: person who said it involves ball. I think a lot

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Speaker 2: of really great scientific questions involve ball bearings. That was

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Speaker 2: a good guess.

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Speaker 1: If you don't know, use some ball bearings, right. They

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Speaker 1: can't hurt.

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Speaker 2: No, no, no, and they're always fun to play with,

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Speaker 2: although I always lose them.

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Speaker 1: But these folks are basically right on the direct approach,

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Speaker 1: smash it together, see what comes out. If you have

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Speaker 1: enough energy, you can break the electron open. You know.

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Speaker 1: That's basically the short answer, and they're right, But nobody

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Speaker 1: got the indirect answer. The more subtle, the clever, the

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Speaker 1: back door way to maybe see what's inside the electron

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Speaker 1: without actually breaking it open, which I'm very excited to

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Speaker 1: talk about.

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Speaker 2: And I'm very excited to hear the explanation because I

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Speaker 2: looked at the outline and I was like, I have

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Speaker 2: never heard about this before, so this will be exciting

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Speaker 2: and new for me. Let's start from the very beginning.

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Speaker 2: You know, we're all made of molecules. Molecules are made

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Speaker 2: of atoms. Give me some more detail, what background do

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Speaker 2: we need?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, And I just love this question because I

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Speaker 1: love like looking at the stuff around us and wondering,

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Speaker 1: like how it comes together? What's the recipe for my coffee?

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Speaker 1: What's the recipe for those fish guts? How do we

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Speaker 1: end up in this universe? You know? And to me,

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Speaker 1: unraveling with things are made of is really like looking

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Speaker 1: at the matrix, you know, finding the source code for

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Speaker 1: the universe. It's something really deeply satisfying. So it's no

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Speaker 1: surprise that I am a particle physicist instead of like

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Speaker 1: a rainforest spider ologist. But I hope other people out

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Speaker 1: there also find that exciting. And we get to live

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Speaker 1: in a time when we have unraveled so much of nature.

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Speaker 1: You know, thousands of years ago people were like, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, maybe there's four kinds of stuff, who knows.

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Speaker 1: But you know, we figured out what used to summarize, like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: we're made of molecules, we're made of atoms. That took

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Speaker 1: us thousands of years to figure out. It's just like

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Speaker 1: obvious high school chemistry by now. But it's also hugely

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Speaker 1: revealing about the way our universe works, you know, and

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Speaker 1: it tells you something already really powerful, which is that

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Speaker 1: you have a huge complexity of stuff, right, Like how

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Speaker 1: many different kinds of things are out there in the universe?

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Speaker 1: Ice cream and blueberries and mushrooms and fish guts and planets,

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Speaker 1: so many things. Maybe infinite numbers of kinds of things.

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Speaker 2: Definitely a huge number, even white chocolate unfortunately, but yeah,

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of stuff out.

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Speaker 1: There, hey said fish cuts, Okay, don't be redundant. The

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Speaker 1: amazing thing is that you can build all of that

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Speaker 1: with like one hundred atoms, right, It's kind of incredible.

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Speaker 1: You put those hundred items together in different ways, and

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Speaker 1: you get lava, or you get kittens, or you get hamsters,

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Speaker 1: or you get whatever. It's incredible that this huge complexity

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Speaker 1: is built out of simplicity, and the complexity comes from

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Speaker 1: the arrangements of the stuff. I think that says something

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Speaker 1: really deep and powerful about the nature of our universe.

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Speaker 1: And so I want to dig deeper, but I want

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Speaker 1: to past for a moment and like appreciate how far

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Speaker 1: we've come, even just when we get to the atom, right,

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Speaker 1: because the universe could have been different. It could have

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Speaker 1: been that like everything's made of its own kind of

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Speaker 1: particle and there isn't simplicity, or as you get lower,

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Speaker 1: there's more and more kinds of stuff. And so I'm

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Speaker 1: grateful that we live in the universe where as you

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Speaker 1: dig deeper, things seem to get simpler. And it's tantalizing

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Speaker 1: because it tells you like, ooh, maybe keep going. There's

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Speaker 1: a really simple hints they're waiting for you. It's all

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Speaker 1: forty two.

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Speaker 2: And as someone who studies behavior, I also think it's

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Speaker 2: awesome that we live in a time where you can

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Speaker 2: get a bunch of nations together to agree that we're

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Speaker 2: interested in the fundamental nature of the universe and we're

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Speaker 2: going to invest in something like the LHC. It's just

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I think it's an amazing time to

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Speaker 2: live for a lot of different reasons.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it is, And so for anybody out there who

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Speaker 1: happens to be in the US Congress, for example, I

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Speaker 1: think funding for particle physics is great for lots of reasons.

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Speaker 1: One is the huge return on investment in terms of

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Speaker 1: transforming the nature of society economically and militarily and all

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Speaker 1: that stuff. But also just for the sheer knowledge, you know,

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Speaker 1: like it's worth it anyway, Let's dig deeper. So we

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Speaker 1: have molecules. Molecules are atoms, is like roughly one hundred

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Speaker 1: kinds of atoms. Inside the atom, of course, is the

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Speaker 1: nucleus and then electrons. Nucleus is made of protons and neutrons,

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Speaker 1: and so now we have structure inside the atom, right,

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Speaker 1: and don't take that for granted. There's an amazing correlation

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Speaker 1: between the structure of the atom and the behavior of

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Speaker 1: the atom. All this complexity we're talking about, all the

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Speaker 1: fascinating different behavior like why are metals metallic, and why

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Speaker 1: something's active and something's inactive. That all comes from the

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Speaker 1: structure of the atom. And you could almost have guessed

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Speaker 1: it if you looked at the periodic table you said, oh,

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Speaker 1: look at these different kinds of atoms. Why there are

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Speaker 1: so many different ones, and why are there patterns here?

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Speaker 1: You could have guessed that it comes from internal structure.

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Speaker 1: That the atoms weren't themselves fundamental, meaning they weren't just

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Speaker 1: made of their own stuff. They were made of something smaller.

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Speaker 1: So we had a very strong clue already when you

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Speaker 1: look at the periodic table that there was more structure

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Speaker 1: deep down, and it's amazing that when we dig in

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Speaker 1: we find that structure and we're then able to explain

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Speaker 1: all of those patterns we saw, right, It's incredible.

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Speaker 2: I feel like you just said that chemistry is important,

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Speaker 2: and I'm feeling a little uncomfortable. But we talked about this.

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Speaker 2: There was a listener question about why is carbon so

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Speaker 2: important for life forms and that did come out of

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Speaker 2: a long discussion about, you know, what we can learn

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Speaker 2: from the periodic, So it's important even if it's chemistry.

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Speaker 1: Now I would say it's redundant. All you need to

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Speaker 1: know is the structure of the atom, and chemistry you

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Speaker 1: should just follow naturally from that if you knew what

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Speaker 1: you were doing.

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Speaker 2: It's always about physics.

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Speaker 1: Exactly anyway. So now let's dig inside the nucleus. Right,

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Speaker 1: we have the protons and the neutrons. Protons and neutrons

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Speaker 1: we know are made of smaller particles. They're made of quarks,

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Speaker 1: and the mass of the proton is fascinating, you know,

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Speaker 1: like basically the proton is the mass of hydrogen. That's

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Speaker 1: what the hydrogen is, basically just a proton. So fix

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Speaker 1: that in your mind is like the unit, and in

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Speaker 1: particle physics we use units of GeV giga electron volts

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Speaker 1: to talk about mass. It really is GeV divided by

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Speaker 1: the speed of light squared, but we just set the

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Speaker 1: speed of light to equal one because otherwise it's such

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Speaker 1: a pain in the butt. Anyways, So the proton has

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Speaker 1: a certain mass. And if you dig into the proton

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Speaker 1: and you ask, like, well, the proton is made of

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Speaker 1: the quarks. Does that mean I can get the proton

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Speaker 1: mass by adding up the mass of the quarks the

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Speaker 1: way you feel like if you take your car apart,

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Speaker 1: the mass of the car is equal to the mass

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Speaker 1: of the parts of the car, right, Well, that's not

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Speaker 1: true for the proton, and this is going to be

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Speaker 1: very important later. The proton's mass is made of things

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Speaker 1: with much much smaller mass. Like you add up the

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Speaker 1: mass of the quarks that make up the proton, you

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Speaker 1: get like a few percent of its mass. So where

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Speaker 1: do the rest of its mass come from? Or? Remember

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Speaker 1: mass is not stuff, right, Mass is internal stored energy,

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Speaker 1: and there's a lot of energy between those quarks holding

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Speaker 1: those quarks together, and that energy inside the proton contributes

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Speaker 1: to the proton's mass. The same way, like shining a

404
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Speaker 1: photon into a box of mirrors makes that box more massive,

405
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Speaker 1: even though what you've added hasn't added any actual mass

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Speaker 1: on its own. So the proton is pretty massive, but

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Speaker 1: it's made of very low mass stuff, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of its mass doesn't come from the mass of the

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Speaker 1: things that's made out.

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Speaker 2: Of this mass is internal stored energy thing. I remember

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Speaker 2: you blew my mind when we were talking about that

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Speaker 2: in the Where does Energy Come From? Episode? So if

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Speaker 2: folks want a bit of a deeper dive into that concept,

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Speaker 2: they should check out that episode.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, So we've zoomed it now inside the protons

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Speaker 1: and neutrons, and protons and neutrons both made of quarks,

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Speaker 1: just different arrangements. You got upcorks and down quarks and

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Speaker 1: two upcorks in it. Down makes one of them to

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Speaker 1: down quarks and up and makes the other one. Honestly,

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Speaker 1: I don't even remember which is which. I can never

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Speaker 1: keep that straight, but you can look it up.

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Speaker 2: I don't bother memorizing stuff like that either.

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Speaker 1: I often remember this stuff, but I feel like if

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Speaker 1: you confuse it too many times early on when you're

425
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Speaker 1: learning it, then it's forever scrambled in your brain, and

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Speaker 1: I will never be able to snangle them and always

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Speaker 1: have to look it up.

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Speaker 2: And this is why I'm never going to try to

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Speaker 2: say hadrawn, because I've gotten it totally confused. If there

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Speaker 2: are some people in my life where I said their

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Speaker 2: name wrong so many times, I will never be constantly

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Speaker 2: I'm going to say it right where I'm just like, hey,

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Speaker 2: I've known you for five years. I don't want to

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Speaker 2: mess it up now that we're face to face.

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Speaker 1: You remember my name though, right?

436
00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:39,800
Speaker 2: Hey?

437
00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:41,760
Speaker 1: You putting you on the spot.

438
00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:43,840
Speaker 2: It's Whitson right.

439
00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:53,040
Speaker 1: In French they call me Wittissan. I was actually one

440
00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:55,200
Speaker 1: time waiting for an aployment at a bank in France

441
00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:58,199
Speaker 1: and they came out and said Monsieur Wisson and I

442
00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,120
Speaker 1: was like, that's not me, and calling him and calling him.

443
00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:03,600
Speaker 1: I was like, who is this moron? We're going for

444
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:04,479
Speaker 1: your appointment already.

445
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:06,400
Speaker 2: Your whole never would come with me, oh.

446
00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:10,960
Speaker 1: Exact, oh simla. Anyway, I go to.

447
00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:14,480
Speaker 2: Doctor's appointments, including to the like obgyn, where you think

448
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:16,920
Speaker 2: that people would be comfortable saying the word wiener. It's

449
00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,320
Speaker 2: always like when they call people out from the waiting

450
00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:23,120
Speaker 2: room it's like, oh, uh, you know, miss Smith, Miss Jordan,

451
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:29,280
Speaker 2: Miss god Luski, uh Kelly, would they get to me?

452
00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,080
Speaker 2: And nobody wants to try to say Wiener Smith, even

453
00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,119
Speaker 2: at the Obgyn. But anyway, that's all right, I go

454
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:36,520
Speaker 2: buy anything. It's all fine.

455
00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:38,600
Speaker 1: Maybe they think you're Bird Simpson, you're playing a brank

456
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:38,920
Speaker 1: on them.

457
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:42,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe nobody would actually do that. We did one

458
00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:45,800
Speaker 2: We went to go pick up our turkey for Thanksgiving

459
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:47,600
Speaker 2: it Whole Foods, and they called to the back, the

460
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,320
Speaker 2: wiener Smiths are here for their turkey. And then fifteen

461
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:52,960
Speaker 2: minutes later we hadn't gotten the turkey, and I was like, hey,

462
00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,000
Speaker 2: could you call them in the back and see what's up.

463
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:57,000
Speaker 2: They called back and they said, what about the turkey

464
00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:58,720
Speaker 2: for the Wienersmith's. And I heard the person on the

465
00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:04,560
Speaker 2: walkie talkie go, oh oh gosh, you were serious. So

466
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,920
Speaker 2: then we got our turkey. All right, I've gotten us

467
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,200
Speaker 2: off track, daniell get us back on track.

468
00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:13,360
Speaker 1: Please, that's right. So we're zooming inside of matter inside

469
00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:16,200
Speaker 1: your frozen turkey. You have molecules and atoms, and those

470
00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,199
Speaker 1: are made of protons and neutrons and electrons, and the

471
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,440
Speaker 1: protons and neutrons are made of quarks. So we've zoomed

472
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,080
Speaker 1: all the way down, and everything that you've ever tasted

473
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 1: or eaten or thrown at your family members on Thanksgiving

474
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,119
Speaker 1: is made of quarks and electrons, right down to this

475
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,359
Speaker 1: very basic Two kinds of quarks and one kind of

476
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:37,280
Speaker 1: electron can make basically everything. So the particle physicists cookbook

477
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,160
Speaker 1: has three ingredients. And the most amazing thing, the most

478
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,919
Speaker 1: mind blowing to me, is that everything in the universe

479
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 1: is made of the same ratio of that stuff. It's

480
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,680
Speaker 1: like one proton to one neutron to one electron, which

481
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,479
Speaker 1: means the same numbers of quarks and electrons in everything.

482
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:53,960
Speaker 1: It's just the arrangement of stuff. But you know, we're

483
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,680
Speaker 1: never satisfied just knowing that it's not like that's the answer,

484
00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:59,560
Speaker 1: and so we're always interested in the question of like,

485
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,680
Speaker 1: is there something deeper? Is there something inside the electron?

486
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 1: Is there something inside the quarks? And we haven't talked

487
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:07,720
Speaker 1: about it today and probably won't, But obviously there's a

488
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:10,440
Speaker 1: huge chunk of the universe dark matter that's not made

489
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,720
Speaker 1: of quarks and leptons, So we know there's other kinds

490
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,800
Speaker 1: of matter out there. Definitely not the end of the story.

491
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,200
Speaker 2: Well, and you said leptons, which we haven't talked about yet.

492
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,119
Speaker 2: What is elepton? Is a lepton like a quark, but

493
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:26,360
Speaker 2: it jumps a lot. I'm stretched.

494
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 1: No, it's a particle that's slept in. No electon, Sorry

495
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,960
Speaker 1: for the terminology. There's a category of particles that the

496
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,040
Speaker 1: electron belongs in, and the electron has cousins the muon

497
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,199
Speaker 1: and the towel that make up the other leptons. But

498
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 1: we can also do say quarks and electrons because that's

499
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 1: what makes up the matter that we are made out of.

500
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 1: There are other quarks out there, and there are other

501
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:48,359
Speaker 1: versions of the electron out there, the muon and the towel,

502
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:50,680
Speaker 1: but our kind of matter is made out of two quarks,

503
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:52,560
Speaker 1: the up and the down, and the electron.

504
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 2: Got it, Okay, So after the break, we're going to

505
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:59,359
Speaker 2: talk about why we think that digging into the electron

506
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:01,439
Speaker 2: is worth it doing. Do we have any evidence to

507
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,320
Speaker 2: suggest there's something else making that up? And we'll discuss

508
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:23,640
Speaker 2: that after the break and we're back. Okay. So we've

509
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,159
Speaker 2: dug into protons and neutrons. We know that there's quarks

510
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 2: that are making them up. Do we have any indication

511
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,160
Speaker 2: that if we dig farther into electrons we will find

512
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 2: that electrons are made up out of something.

513
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,879
Speaker 1: We have no really direct smoking gun, right. What we

514
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 1: do have is a sort of history and some hints

515
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 1: that encourage us. Recall when we were talking about the

516
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,000
Speaker 1: periodic table. We saw all these patterns in the periodic

517
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 1: table and we were wondering, could that be explained by

518
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,679
Speaker 1: internal structure? Could these actually all be made out of

519
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:54,879
Speaker 1: smaller bits? And the patterns come from how those bits

520
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 1: arrange themselves and come together naturally, from the different ways

521
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 1: that they can click together, or whatever. And now we

522
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 1: know the answer is yes. So we can also look

523
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,239
Speaker 1: at the current list of particles that we don't know

524
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,400
Speaker 1: what's inside and ask are there patterns there? Are there

525
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:13,640
Speaker 1: unexplained phenomena, things that seem suggestive that maybe these are

526
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,159
Speaker 1: built out of the same smaller bits. The answer to

527
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 1: that is, oh, yeah, absolutely, there are huge, obvious, screaming

528
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,719
Speaker 1: patterns that suggest very strongly this is not the final answer.

529
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 2: And if you were to find something fundamental making up electrons,

530
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:30,040
Speaker 2: what would you name it?

531
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 1: The white son? Of course?

532
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 2: The what toll exactly?

533
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 1: So yeah, I hope I'm around to do that, and

534
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 1: I suspect the particle physics community would overrule me, and

535
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:48,360
Speaker 1: that happens occasionally, you get overruled, like the electron discovered

536
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 1: by JJ Thompson. He didn't call it the electron. He

537
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 1: wanted to call them corpuscules, like little bits of matter.

538
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 1: But people are like, yeah, no, we're going to go

539
00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:57,400
Speaker 1: with electron.

540
00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 2: I mean, as long as they don't name it like

541
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,399
Speaker 2: A or B, like what was it Jupiter's rings? It

542
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:04,959
Speaker 2: needs to be something exciting. But okay, all right, so

543
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 2: tell me more about these tantalizing patterns.

544
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 1: Yes, So we mentioned earlier that there's more than just

545
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 1: the electron, right, the electron has cousins. There's the muon

546
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 1: in the towel, so there's three kinds of electrons. The

547
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,120
Speaker 1: electron also has a partner, the new trino, which isn't

548
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,159
Speaker 1: part of our matter, but it's part of the universe.

549
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,919
Speaker 1: It's something the universe can do. So in total, there

550
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:28,400
Speaker 1: are six of these lepton particles, the electron, muon, TAW,

551
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 1: and then the three neutrinos that correspond to them. So

552
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 1: that's interesting and you might ask like, well, why are

553
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 1: there three these particles are all so closely related that

554
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,679
Speaker 1: muon is just a little heavier than the electron. The

555
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 1: toaw is even heavier. It feels like you patterns in

556
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 1: the periodic table. There's like three columns of these particles.

557
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,919
Speaker 1: So that's already very interesting and suggestive. It makes you wonder, like,

558
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 1: are there three ways to click together their internal bits?

559
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 1: And this is how it happens, three ways for some

560
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 1: string inside of it to vibrate. And that's just one

561
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: of the really interesting patterns. That whole pattern of like

562
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 1: six particles three pairs of two is also reflected in

563
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 1: the quarks. We talked about the quarks the up and

564
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 1: the down. That's one doublet of quarks up and the

565
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 1: down go together. There's a copy of that doublet the

566
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 1: charm and the strange, very similar to the up and

567
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 1: the down, but heavier. And then there's another copy of

568
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 1: that doublet the top and the bottom. So all in

569
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 1: all the quarks have six and it breaks into these

570
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 1: three columns of two particles exactly the same way the

571
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,360
Speaker 1: leptons do. So you have this structure which is interesting

572
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 1: and suggestive, and then you have it repeated in another

573
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: set of particles. The amazing thing is that the quarks

574
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,880
Speaker 1: and leptons are very different. The quarks feel the strong force,

575
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 1: the leptons don't. The quarks make up the nucleus, the

576
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 1: leptons make up the stuff that orbits around it. We

577
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,200
Speaker 1: don't actually know what the relationship is between quarks and leptons,

578
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 1: yet there's this very strong symmetry between them. It's like

579
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 1: if you go into a suburban street and you see,

580
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:55,880
Speaker 1: like all the houses on the left have this one

581
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:57,439
Speaker 1: floor plan, all the houses on the right have this

582
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,880
Speaker 1: other floor plan, but they're similar. You might be like, oh, okay,

583
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:02,919
Speaker 1: well this is obviously built by one company and they

584
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 1: got two floor plans, right, it's the same deal. It's

585
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 1: like the universe can do this or it could do that,

586
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 1: and probably they're built out of the same bits, you know, Like,

587
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,640
Speaker 1: for example, the charge of the proton is plus one

588
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 1: and the charge of the electron is minus one. Those

589
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,400
Speaker 1: two things cancel exactly. For that to happen, there has

590
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,440
Speaker 1: to be some relationship between the quarks and leftons. Can't

591
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: just be chance that the quarks add up to make

592
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,159
Speaker 1: plus one and the electron adds up to make minus one.

593
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 1: So there's definitely some connection there. But we don't know

594
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 1: what it is. So all of this to me are

595
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 1: very obvious clues. And in one hundred years, when we

596
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 1: know what's inside the electron and the quarks, people will

597
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 1: be like, God, it was so obvious. How did you

598
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 1: not see it? Right? But right now we don't know.

599
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 1: We know that we have these patterns, and it could

600
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: be that the universe is just this way, that all

601
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 1: this stuff is fundamental and the universe has made it

602
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 1: of these complex bits with these weird patterns, and there

603
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 1: is no explanation, but I refuse to believe it. I

604
00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 1: think that everything out there should be explained.

605
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 2: So if we've got you know, three different kinds of neutrinos,

606
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 2: they've got up and down quarks, charm and strange and

607
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 2: top and bottom charm and strange was a good naming thing.

608
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 2: When we break the electron into its component parts, do

609
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 2: we expect there to be two parts then, to match

610
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 2: with what we're seeing with the neutrinos.

611
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, good question. We don't know. There could be made

612
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 1: of two things, could we have three things? Could just

613
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 1: be made of itself. Whatever is down there is going

614
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 1: to be very different from what we've seen before. And

615
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 1: you know, when we saw the proton, it was made

616
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 1: out of three things. And it's interesting it's made of

617
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 1: three things because of the way the strong force works.

618
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 1: There's three colors, and one way to get a balance

619
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: is to have all three colors, you know. It's not

620
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 1: just like a plus charge and a minus charge is red, green, blue,

621
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 1: and if you have a red, green, and a blue,

622
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: it comes together to make a color neutral object, which

623
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 1: is stable. So one reason why the proton is made

624
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 1: out of three is for that reason, because of the

625
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 1: structure of that force. So we don't know what force

626
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: is holding together the quarks or the electrons, and that's

627
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 1: what would determine how many pieces there are and how

628
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 1: they interact, you know. And so it could be that

629
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 1: the electron is fundamental. It's just made of itself, and

630
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 1: when the coders of our simulation put together the universe,

631
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 1: they started with electrons and that's it, and there's just

632
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 1: nothing else inside. But it could also be that it's

633
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 1: made of smaller stuff. The frustrating thing is that you

634
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,479
Speaker 1: can never prove that something is fundamental, right. You can

635
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 1: prove it's not by breaking it open and seeing what's inside.

636
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 1: But all you can do is not to discover that

637
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 1: it is made of something. That doesn't prove that it

638
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 1: is fundamental, right, just shows that, well, maybe it's fundamental,

639
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: or maybe it's stuff that's so small you can't see,

640
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 1: or it's bound together so tightly you can't break it open,

641
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 1: so you can never actually prove that it's fundamental.

642
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 2: The universe can be very frustrating that way.

643
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 1: And it might also be this is really philosophical, that

644
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 1: there's nothing fundamental, like maybe the electron is made of

645
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 1: something else, Schma electrons and those are made of something else,

646
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 1: but electrons and those are made of something else, is

647
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 1: made of something else. And your instinct is, well, there's

648
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 1: got to be something at the bottom, right, it's got

649
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 1: to be a bedrock layer of reality. And maybe but

650
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 1: that's just a philosophical hunch, you know, we have no

651
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: evidence that there is. There are theories out there in

652
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 1: philosophy that the universe could just be an infinite ladder

653
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 1: of particles with no bottom, right, it just goes on forever,

654
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 1: which would be great for particle physics because like infinite funding, right,

655
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 1: just keep.

656
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 2: Digging infinite nobels. Yeah, there go, there you go.

657
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 1: But that could be our reality, right, it's possible, but

658
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 1: there also could be a bedrock, and that's what I

659
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 1: hope for. I hope that we get someday to some

660
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 1: set of particles that's so simple, so basic, so obvious

661
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 1: and beautiful that we think, okay, this must be it.

662
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 1: It would make sense for the universe to have this

663
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 1: beats fundamental, because it'd be very unsatisfying if the answer

664
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 1: is what we have today. The answer is, well, there

665
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 1: are twelve matter particles and there are five forced particles,

666
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 1: and that's just it. They're seventeen and that's the basic

667
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 1: elements of the universe, and that's what we start from.

668
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 1: And like, really, come on, it's got to be simpler

669
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 1: than that. We have this tendency towards simplicity, and I

670
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 1: just hope that the march continues, but there's no guarantees, so.

671
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 2: I gotta be honest. Before you and I started talking regularly,

672
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 2: I also held out hope that they were like simple, beautiful,

673
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 2: elegant answers. And then you told me about the weak force.

674
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 2: That was the moment for me where I'm like, I

675
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 2: don't think any of this is gonna make sense. We're

676
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 2: just gonna have to keep buddling our way through. But

677
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 2: hopefully I'm wrong.

678
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 1: So I ruined your view of particle physics. Used to

679
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 1: think of it as like a shining cathedral of simplicity

680
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 1: and beauty, and then you're like, man, this is a

681
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 1: mess that's.

682
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 2: All held together with zip ties and duct tape in there.

683
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:40,239
Speaker 2: I don't know what's going on, but it is.

684
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, But you know, at least now we understand why

685
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 1: the weak force is a mess. They used to just

686
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 1: be like, gosh, this is kind of ugly, and now

687
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 1: we see, oh, it was beautiful and it was shattered

688
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 1: by the Higgs boson in this precise way, and that's

689
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 1: at least satisfying, and we can explain it, and we

690
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 1: can hark back to an earlier day in the universe

691
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 1: before it all got messed up. Something satisfying there, and

692
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 1: I hope we get that kind of explanation.

693
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 2: All right, sounds good. I'm sure the more I learn,

694
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 2: the more satisfied I'll become. That's so nice of you,

695
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 2: You know, you make a strong effort to be interested

696
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 2: in biology. We're both supporting each other here. So let's

697
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 2: talk about the methods that are currently being used to

698
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 2: try to break electrons into smaller pieces. If that's a

699
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 2: thing that exists.

700
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, So the most obvious thing is what

701
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 1: the listener suggested, which is like, hey, let's smash it open, right,

702
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 1: Take two electrons or an electron and a positron, doesn't

703
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 1: really matter, point them at each other, give them a

704
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 1: lot of energy, and bounce them off each other. See

705
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 1: what happens. Like This method works also for things like toasters. Right,

706
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 1: want to know what's inside your toaster? Take two toasters,

707
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 1: throw them at each other at really high speeds. You're

708
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 1: gonna have a shower of stuff that comes out, and

709
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 1: you can sift through the debris and be like, oh

710
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 1: look there's two springs and there's two handles, and oh okay,

711
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 1: this must be what the toaster is made out of.

712
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 2: An ouch just should have unplugged it first.

713
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 1: That's a long extension cord. And there's something fundamentally different

714
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 1: about the way it happens or quantum particles, but the

715
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:08,759
Speaker 1: spirit is the same. I mean, if you smash two

716
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 1: toasters together, you're not destroying parts of the toaster and

717
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,839
Speaker 1: converting their math into energy and trains meeting them into

718
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 1: something else. The bits that come out of the toaster

719
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 1: collision are the same bits that went into the toaster collision.

720
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 1: In a quantum collision, you can annihilate the particles like

721
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 1: eve an electron and a positron. They can annihilate into

722
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 1: a photon and then turn into something else. Crazy. What

723
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 1: comes out isn't always what went in, right, So you're

724
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,320
Speaker 1: not always learning about what's inside the electron if you

725
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 1: annihilate it.

726
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 2: So, say you smashed two toasters into each other, and

727
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 2: you expected to see like screws and springs and stuff

728
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 2: like that. We don't even know what we should expect

729
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 2: to see when you break the electron. And so if

730
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 2: you know, things we had never seen before came out

731
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 2: of the toaster, like fish cuts, fish guts, exactly, how

732
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:52,920
Speaker 2: would we even know what to do with that? And so, like,

733
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:54,879
Speaker 2: how do we know what to look for or how

734
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 2: to measure it if we've never seen it before?

735
00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, good question. It would be amazing if we discover

736
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 1: this fish all the way down.

737
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 2: I'm skeptical.

738
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 1: The simplest version of what we do is that we

739
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,360
Speaker 1: start at low energy and we know what we expect

740
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 1: to see. Like, if you shoot two electrons at each

741
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,279
Speaker 1: other at fairly low energy, they're going to bounce off

742
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:16,800
Speaker 1: each other in a way that's similar to what happens

743
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 1: if you shoot two baseballs at each other. They're going

744
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 1: to bounce off, and you can calculate the angles they're

745
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:24,399
Speaker 1: going to come out at and the energy. And they're

746
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 1: quantum particles, so you can't predict an individual one, but

747
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 1: you can predict the distribution. And so if you have

748
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 1: what we call elastic scattering, which means you're not breaking

749
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 1: the particles open, you know, changing the configuration they're just

750
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 1: bouncing off each other is very predictable. So you start

751
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 1: with that and you see the distributions you expect, the

752
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,319
Speaker 1: angles that you expect, you're like, okay, that's cool. And

753
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 1: then you increase the energy, and like with baseballs, at

754
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 1: some point when you increase the energy, you're going to

755
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 1: get what we call an inelastic collision, which means the

756
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 1: baseballs shatter or they stick together, or something else happens. Right,

757
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,959
Speaker 1: And it's an energy threshold because the baseball's help together

758
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 1: with energy, right, it's bound together. And if you have

759
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 1: a high enough energy, you can break those bonds. If

760
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 1: you don't, you don't, So below some energy threshold, you're

761
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 1: not probing inside the baseball. You're probing the baseball behavior itself,

762
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:17,439
Speaker 1: but above some energy, it's inelastic, and then the distribution changes. Yeah,

763
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:19,800
Speaker 1: maybe a baseball comes out, but first of all, it's mangled.

764
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 1: It looks different, and the angles look very different. Like

765
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 1: if you collide to baseballs and they stick together, they

766
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 1: don't come back out at you in the same way.

767
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,360
Speaker 1: Or imagine if you're doing it, like you throw a

768
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 1: baseball at a wall, and if you throw it low energy,

769
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 1: it bounces off, it doesn't break the wall. Throw it

770
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 1: high enough energy, baseball just doesn't come back right. It

771
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 1: just goes through the wall. So that's very different. And

772
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 1: so that's what you look for to see. If you're

773
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,919
Speaker 1: probing inside a particle, you shoot it at higher, higher

774
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 1: and energy, and you look for deviations from the distributions

775
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,879
Speaker 1: you would expect from elastic scattering to see that you're

776
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 1: starting to do inelastic scattering. You're starting to probe maybe

777
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:59,319
Speaker 1: what's inside the particles instead of probing the particles as

778
00:36:59,320 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 1: a whole.

779
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 2: We found an energy at which we can shoot electrons

780
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 2: at each other where it looks like we're transitioning from

781
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 2: elastic to inelastic scattering.

782
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 1: Unfortunately not yet, but This is exactly how we discovered

783
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 1: the structure of the proton. We shot electrons and protons

784
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 1: at each other, and a low energy they bounce off

785
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 1: elastic scattering. At higher energy, you start to destroy the proton,

786
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 1: and what's happening is the electron is now interacting with

787
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,400
Speaker 1: the quarks inside of it, and so at some energy

788
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 1: you start to just get like shrapnel from the proton

789
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 1: and it's definitely not elastic scattering, so you can tell

790
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 1: you're doing inelastic scattering. For people who want to learn

791
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,399
Speaker 1: more about these experiments, they're fascinating and amazing. They're called

792
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 1: deep in elastic scattering, so you can google that. And

793
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 1: if you get to high enough energy, you actually start

794
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: to see elastic scattering from the things inside the proton.

795
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 1: And that's, for example, how we know we have three

796
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 1: quarks inside the proton, because you shoot electrons at the

797
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 1: proton and you start to get elastic scattering as if

798
00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 1: there are three tight little dots of objects that you're

799
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 1: interacting with. Because at high enough energy, the bonds of

800
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 1: the quarks are irrelevant. If your energy of your probe

801
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 1: is larger than the energy of the bonds between the quarks,

802
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 1: you're just shooting it at three quarks and sometimes they

803
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 1: bounce off and exactly the way you would expect from

804
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 1: elastic scattering between electrons and quarks. So it's this incredibly

805
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:20,840
Speaker 1: beautiful transition from elastic to inelastic to then three times

806
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:22,760
Speaker 1: elastic scattering. It's really amazing.

807
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 2: That must have been so cool to realize that you,

808
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 2: instead of a proton, now have three other things that

809
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:29,719
Speaker 2: have popped out and be like the answer is three.

810
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know.

811
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 2: That sounds really cool to me.

812
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 1: It is really cool, but for a while people didn't

813
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 1: believe it. They're like, okay, well that's cool and that's clever,

814
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,960
Speaker 1: but that's just mathematics, Like is that real. And for

815
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,839
Speaker 1: a long time people call these partons like parts of

816
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 1: the proton, and nobody believes that they were like actually

817
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 1: physically real things inside the proton until somebody predicted, like, okay,

818
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 1: well if these things are real, these quarks are real,

819
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:55,360
Speaker 1: they should be able to do other things also, like

820
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 1: make other states bound together. And somebody predicted one of

821
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 1: these states. And the day they saw this in the experiment,

822
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 1: is this new state made of just these quarks together.

823
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:07,919
Speaker 1: That's when everybody started to believe Okay, quarks are real.

824
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:11,759
Speaker 1: It's called the October Revolution. It was a very yeah,

825
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 1: absolutely in physics. And a guy I worked with tells

826
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 1: a story about his father who's also a particle physicist,

827
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 1: getting a phone call that day in October and like

828
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:22,399
Speaker 1: leaping out of the shower naked and dripping wet because

829
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 1: he knew he was going to be exciting news to

830
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 1: take that phone call. So sometimes there is drama in

831
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:28,759
Speaker 1: particle physics. And so that's what we saw for the

832
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 1: inside the proton. We know the proton has structure, and

833
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:33,479
Speaker 1: that's how we know, and we can try the same

834
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 1: thing shooting electrons at each other. But so far we've

835
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:37,400
Speaker 1: seen no structure.

836
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 2: And have we gone up to what you would consider

837
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 2: to be very very very high energies doing these experiments, Well.

838
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 1: We've done the highest we can, right. The large hadron

839
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:48,759
Speaker 1: collider is the highest energy collisions of protons and protons,

840
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 1: and before that we had a high energy electron collider.

841
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 1: You know, we built these things as large as we can.

842
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 1: The limitation is just money, Like, there's no fundamental limitation

843
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 1: to building a bigger collidse. We know how to do it.

844
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 1: It just costs a lot of cash. You got to

845
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:06,840
Speaker 1: build a tunnel, you got magnets, you got little accelerating modules.

846
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:10,839
Speaker 1: We could, in principle build one that circumnavigates the moon

847
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 1: or you know, the galaxy or whatever. You just cost

848
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,759
Speaker 1: a zillion dollars, and even I think that's probably not

849
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 1: a good way to spend to your cash. But it's

850
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 1: awesome sort of to think that, like we could just

851
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 1: buy this knowledge of the universe, Like it's out there,

852
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 1: we're in the candy store, we have the money in

853
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:29,360
Speaker 1: our pockets. We're just like, hmmm, I feel like that

854
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:30,800
Speaker 1: Snickers bar is too much money.

855
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:32,760
Speaker 2: Maybe we should figure out what causes cancer.

856
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:37,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, save some kids from dying. Exactly. So one

857
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 1: approach is like, just build bigger colliders. But the problem

858
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:41,799
Speaker 1: is we don't know how big it has to be,

859
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 1: Like until you see the inside of the electron, you

860
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,359
Speaker 1: have no idea. Is it right beyond our capability if

861
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 1: we build it a little bit bigger we see it,

862
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:51,800
Speaker 1: or is it going to require a solar system sized

863
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 1: collider or a galaxy sized colider or use black holes

864
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: or just like a revolution in collider technology, so we

865
00:40:57,680 --> 00:40:59,839
Speaker 1: don't need to make them so big and expensive something

866
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 1: are working on that, So it's an exploration game the

867
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 1: same way. You don't know when you land on an

868
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:07,400
Speaker 1: alien planet is going to be all dust and rubble?

869
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 1: Or are the aliens waiting for us? And you want

870
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:11,479
Speaker 1: to land on as many planets as possible. We don't

871
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 1: know when we build a collider, are we about to

872
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:16,759
Speaker 1: see inside the electron? Or is this thing way too

873
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 1: small and we're not going to see anything. You just

874
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 1: don't know, all right.

875
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 2: Well, so we've talked about direct methods of trying to

876
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 2: figure out if electrons are made of smaller parts. Next,

877
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 2: you are going to tell us about the indirect method

878
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 2: that you queued up for us as a super exciting

879
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 2: thing earlier in the episode, And when we get back

880
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 2: from the break, we're going to learn all about it.

881
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 2: We're back and during the break I asked Daniel if

882
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:55,360
Speaker 2: the indirect method required bigger colliders, and he said the

883
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:57,320
Speaker 2: answer is no, which means maybe this could be the

884
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 2: key with existing technologies for figuring it out exactly. I'm

885
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,400
Speaker 2: super excited. How do we do this indirectly?

886
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 1: Yeah? So, particle physicists loves smashing stuff together and they

887
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:09,279
Speaker 1: love making bigger and bigger colliders, and that's all fun

888
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 1: and everybody would prefer to do it's a direct way.

889
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 1: It's the most fun, it's the most obvious, it's the cleanest,

890
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 1: the data is beautiful. But hey, it's expensive, and you know,

891
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:19,399
Speaker 1: it's hard to build new colliders, and so we also

892
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:21,359
Speaker 1: try to be resourceful and we try to find other

893
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 1: ways to discover things without having to build the collider

894
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:27,880
Speaker 1: to make them directly. So we have these indirect methods

895
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 1: of discovering things. Essentially, if we can see the influence

896
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 1: of some new particle, for example, on the particles we

897
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:36,880
Speaker 1: already are able to make in the collider, even if

898
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:38,760
Speaker 1: we don't have enough energy to make that new particle,

899
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 1: that can still influence the particles we have. So for example,

900
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,480
Speaker 1: before we discovered the top quark, we were pretty sure

901
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 1: it was there, and we're pretty sure we knew where

902
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:48,759
Speaker 1: it was, like how much mass it had because of

903
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 1: the way it influenced the particles we were able to

904
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,839
Speaker 1: make at the lower energy colliders. So we can play

905
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 1: this indirect game of seeing the influence of new particles

906
00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:00,839
Speaker 1: out there on the particles we see to discover new

907
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 1: particles without like having the energy to make them, but

908
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 1: we can also do something similar to see inside the

909
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 1: electron using a very clever trick of studying the Higgs boson.

910
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:13,800
Speaker 1: So you remember, the Higgs boson is the particle it

911
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 1: messes up the weak force, but also it gives mass

912
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 1: to all the particles, like it gives mass to the electron,

913
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 1: for example, by interacting with it. So without the Higgs boson,

914
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 1: the electron would have no mass. It would be a

915
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 1: speed of light, massless particle, similar to the photon, but

916
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:31,240
Speaker 1: with charge. Of course, once you have the Higgs boson

917
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 1: in the universe, the Higgs and the electron interact, and

918
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:36,840
Speaker 1: so the electron that we see is not the pure electron.

919
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 1: It's the electron interacting with the Higgs field, and that

920
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:43,440
Speaker 1: interaction is sort of like a big pulsing ball. The

921
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 1: energy is sliding back and forth between the electron field

922
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 1: and Higgs field, back and forth constantly, and that basically

923
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 1: counts as internal stored mass of this thing, this thing

924
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:55,719
Speaker 1: which is a combination of the electron in the Higgs field.

925
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 1: We talked in the Charge episode about how fields are

926
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,359
Speaker 1: coupled together sloshes back and forth between them. That's what's

927
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 1: happening with the electron field and the Higgs field. So

928
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,400
Speaker 1: the thing that we see is not really a pure electron.

929
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 1: What we call the electron is actually a combination of

930
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 1: the electron field and the Higgs field, and that thing

931
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 1: has energy inside of it because of this interaction, and

932
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:18,080
Speaker 1: that's where the electrons mass comes from. Still with me,

933
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 1: So I'm.

934
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 2: Trying to connect what you just said and thinking about

935
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 2: what we were talking about before. So is this interaction

936
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 2: going to give us more energy than you would get

937
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 2: if you were just smashing electrons together. No, that's not

938
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,759
Speaker 2: what we're going for. We're just expecting the interactions to

939
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,240
Speaker 2: be different in a way that is formative.

940
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. You can't use that as a source of

941
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 1: fuel to like push things further or anything. But what's

942
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:44,240
Speaker 1: really fascinating is that the electron has a different mass

943
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 1: than the muon. For example, right, muon is the cousin

944
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 1: of the electron. Muon has a lot more mass, interacts

945
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:52,920
Speaker 1: much more strongly with the Higgs boson, and so the

946
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 1: Higgs boson interacts with the muon more intensely. So the

947
00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 1: muon has more mass. And that's really interesting because it

948
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 1: means that by studying the interaction between the Higgs boson

949
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:06,719
Speaker 1: and a particle, you can understand how much mass it

950
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,840
Speaker 1: should have. Like if you knew the strength of the

951
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 1: interaction between the Higgs boson the electron, you could predict

952
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 1: the electrons mass. You'd be like, Okay, I know how

953
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 1: much these two fields couple together, so I can calculate

954
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 1: how that little pulsling ball of energy should be and

955
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 1: I can predict the electrons mass. Right, And the same way,

956
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:26,080
Speaker 1: you know, Okay, the muon interacts more strongly with the Higgs,

957
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:27,399
Speaker 1: so we should have a higher mass. And the top

958
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 1: quark crazy interaction with the Higgs. Huge mass for the

959
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:33,359
Speaker 1: top quark. Top quark is like two hundred times the

960
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:35,759
Speaker 1: mass of the proton, which is much more massive than

961
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 1: the electron. So enormous variations in the amount that the

962
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:43,040
Speaker 1: Higgs boson interacts with this stuff. So say you knew

963
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:45,439
Speaker 1: how the Higgs boson interacts with these particles, you could

964
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 1: predict their mass, and then you went out and you

965
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:50,759
Speaker 1: measured their mass, and what if you saw a discrepancy.

966
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:53,880
Speaker 1: What if the Higgs boson interacts with the electron and

967
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:55,839
Speaker 1: it should give it a mass of like zero point one.

968
00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:57,920
Speaker 1: But you go out and you measure the mass and

969
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 1: it's point five where it's ten point zero, then you'd

970
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 1: be like, hold on a second, the electron has more

971
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 1: mass than it's getting from the Higgs boson. We think

972
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 1: the Higgs boson is giving the electron a certain amount

973
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 1: of mass, but we can go out and measure it

974
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:13,359
Speaker 1: in the universe it has more mass than that. What

975
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 1: could that mean. Well, we've seen that before, haven't we.

976
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:20,840
Speaker 1: The proton is made of three quarks, and those quarks

977
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 1: get their mass from the Higgs boson, But the proton

978
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:25,800
Speaker 1: gets most of its mass not from the Higgs boson,

979
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 1: but from the interaction of the quarks, and so in

980
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 1: a similar way, if you measure the mass of the

981
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:34,400
Speaker 1: electron and it's heavier than you can explain with the

982
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 1: Higgs boson, that means that it's got some energy inside

983
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 1: of it, some bonds that are holding its bits together.

984
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:44,360
Speaker 1: That its mass is not just coming from the Higgs boson.

985
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 1: Its mass is coming from the interaction of the things

986
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 1: inside of it, which means there are things inside of it. Haha,

987
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:52,720
Speaker 1: look at that, ha ha.

988
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 2: But that doesn't tell us how many things are inside

989
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:57,400
Speaker 2: of it, or the nature of the things inside of it.

990
00:46:57,480 --> 00:46:59,839
Speaker 1: Don't throw cold water on our discovery. Oh my god,

991
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 1: we just had an aha moment. We revealed something about

992
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 1: the universe, and now you're not sad.

993
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 2: Now I'm excited. I'm excited. I'm just trying to figure

994
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:07,840
Speaker 2: out how excited.

995
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 1: I should be. No, you're totally right. The indirect method

996
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 1: is not as exciting as the direct method. It tells

997
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:14,560
Speaker 1: us that there is something inside of it, and you

998
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 1: can tell us something about the nature of those bonds.

999
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 1: But you're right, it doesn't tell us what it is.

1000
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 1: It doesn't show it to us, It doesn't give it

1001
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:20,920
Speaker 1: to us to play with.

1002
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:22,720
Speaker 2: But has this been done?

1003
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:24,480
Speaker 1: So this is what we're working on. And this is

1004
00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:27,320
Speaker 1: something we can do with a large hadron collider because

1005
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:29,840
Speaker 1: we can study the interaction of the Higgs boson in

1006
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:31,719
Speaker 1: various particles. Who The way we do that is by

1007
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:34,759
Speaker 1: measuring how often the Higgs boson turns into those particles.

1008
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 1: Like you create a Higgs boson, does it turn into

1009
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 1: a pair of bottom quarks or a pair of top quarks,

1010
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 1: or a pair of electrons or a pair of muons.

1011
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 1: The rate at which it interacts with these particles determines

1012
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 1: how often it turns into those particles, so electrons very

1013
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 1: very low mass, low interaction with the higgs, very rare.

1014
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 1: To see higgs turn into electrons very difficult, but you

1015
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:56,799
Speaker 1: run the collider long enough, you'll see it and you'll

1016
00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:58,880
Speaker 1: be able to measure that, and then we can compare

1017
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:00,879
Speaker 1: that to the mass of the higgs. So we don't

1018
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:03,440
Speaker 1: have that number yet because the higgs decase to electrons

1019
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 1: very very very rarely because they're so light. But we're

1020
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:09,360
Speaker 1: starting to be able to measure that for other particles.

1021
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:11,440
Speaker 1: So we've measured it for the top cork and for

1022
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:14,240
Speaker 1: the bottom cork, and those numbers are as we expect.

1023
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 1: So the higgs boson de case to the top cork

1024
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:18,720
Speaker 1: in a way that suggests that all of its mass

1025
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:21,160
Speaker 1: comes from the higgs boson. I mean, you would have

1026
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:24,440
Speaker 1: heard about it already if we discovered something inside the quarks.

1027
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 1: So far the number is don't indicate that there's anything

1028
00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:29,359
Speaker 1: inside the top cork or the bottom cork. We haven't

1029
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 1: been able to probe the other particles because they're lower

1030
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 1: masks and therefore the higgs the case to them more rarely.

1031
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:37,279
Speaker 1: But that is something we can do, and we have

1032
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:39,799
Speaker 1: ten more years to run this collider and get all

1033
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 1: that data and analyze these things. And I just think

1034
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:45,000
Speaker 1: it's cool that we have sort of these backdoor methods

1035
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:46,680
Speaker 1: to be like, well, let's look to see if we

1036
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:48,920
Speaker 1: can figure out if there is something there before we

1037
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:51,919
Speaker 1: actually build the collider to break it open and show

1038
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:52,319
Speaker 1: it to us.

1039
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:55,319
Speaker 2: Yeah. So say you had an electron a muon what

1040
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:56,839
Speaker 2: is a tau town?

1041
00:48:56,920 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 4: Good?

1042
00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:01,000
Speaker 2: Right? Towh man, it was so cool question stuff.

1043
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 1: I'm rounding you up to any of plus.

1044
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 2: All right, thank you? Great? Oh yeah, okay, So you've

1045
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:07,320
Speaker 2: got these three things and you interact them with the

1046
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:11,359
Speaker 2: Higgs if the answer for their mass differs in some

1047
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 2: predictable way, like you know, one is always twenty five

1048
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 2: percent higher than the other, and then the other one

1049
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 2: is another twenty five percent beyond that, could you guess

1050
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:22,239
Speaker 2: how many there were in there, like you know, there's

1051
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:24,239
Speaker 2: probably three, and then there's an additional one in this

1052
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:26,719
Speaker 2: one and an additional one in that one, Like could

1053
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 2: you get a handle on like the relative numbers of

1054
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:29,239
Speaker 2: things that way?

1055
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:32,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly the game we'd love to play. You know,

1056
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 1: look at these things, look for patterns, look for clues.

1057
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:37,760
Speaker 1: If we saw this, there would be instantly a zillion

1058
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:41,080
Speaker 1: theories explaining it, you know, to match all those numbers,

1059
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:43,920
Speaker 1: which would be really fun. And you know, we need

1060
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:46,360
Speaker 1: that kind of inspiration. We need this kind of data

1061
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:48,400
Speaker 1: to give us a clue to come up with these ideas.

1062
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:51,440
Speaker 1: There are lots of theories of electron compositeness, you know,

1063
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 1: things that could be inside the electron, but nobody's any

1064
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:56,239
Speaker 1: idea if any of them are true. Maybe the most

1065
00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 1: famous is string theory. String theory says all the particles

1066
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:02,240
Speaker 1: are just string oscillating in different ways, which is cool

1067
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:05,160
Speaker 1: and very beautiful, but strings are so tiny that we

1068
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 1: could never see them with a direct method, like we

1069
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:12,759
Speaker 1: would need a ridiculous collider to see strings. And you know,

1070
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 1: not everything that's inside the electron could be seen even

1071
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:18,279
Speaker 1: with this indirect method, because it has to couple to

1072
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:20,880
Speaker 1: the Higgs boson. In order for this to work, it

1073
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 1: has to directly get its mass from the Higgs boson

1074
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:26,279
Speaker 1: the constituents of the electron. It could be that the

1075
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:28,760
Speaker 1: constituous electron don't get their mass from the Higgs boson,

1076
00:50:29,239 --> 00:50:32,960
Speaker 1: and the electron itself is some like effective approximate description

1077
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:34,840
Speaker 1: of it, and it gets its mass directly from the

1078
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:38,080
Speaker 1: Higgs boson, unlike the proton, for example. So there are

1079
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 1: ways that this could fail, but it's an exciting way

1080
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:42,840
Speaker 1: to see inside the electron anyway.

1081
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:45,120
Speaker 2: So is this the kind of thing where, like tomorrow,

1082
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:47,239
Speaker 2: the news could be saying, oh my gosh, using the

1083
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 2: indirect method, we are now sure that the electron is

1084
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:51,440
Speaker 2: made up of stuff. You said something about a decade's

1085
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:52,879
Speaker 2: worth of data. Is this the kind of thing where

1086
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 2: we're gonna need ten years to figure it out? To

1087
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:56,719
Speaker 2: see a signature, We're gonna.

1088
00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 1: Need a while. This is hard. You're measuring something that's

1089
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:02,160
Speaker 1: very very rarely happens, and then you want to measure

1090
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:04,839
Speaker 1: very precisely, which means you need a bunch of examples.

1091
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:06,640
Speaker 1: But this is what we're good at, you know, we

1092
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 1: are good at using machine learning to extract this information

1093
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 1: from the data to get the most juice out of

1094
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:14,719
Speaker 1: the dollars that we have spent on it. And you know,

1095
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:17,359
Speaker 1: this is what particle physicists do. We're blocked by this wall,

1096
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 1: so let's see if we can find a way around it.

1097
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:21,239
Speaker 1: And I'm impressed with the cleverness. I mean, I didn't

1098
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:23,719
Speaker 1: come over this. Yeah, somebody else thought of this, and

1099
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:26,719
Speaker 1: it just goes to show you the ingenuity of humanity.

1100
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:28,799
Speaker 1: You know, there are questions we have, and we will

1101
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 1: always push to find the answers, even if it seems

1102
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:35,239
Speaker 1: impossible or impractical or ridiculously expensive, we will find a

1103
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:35,959
Speaker 1: way to get there.

1104
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:39,319
Speaker 2: So you said that the LEDC right now mostly has

1105
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:42,440
Speaker 2: protons shooting around. So are we even collecting the right

1106
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:44,640
Speaker 2: kind of data to use the indirect method right now

1107
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 2: or is that happening at like a different collider.

1108
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:48,799
Speaker 1: No, proton shooting around is a good way to make

1109
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 1: Higgs bosons. One thing that LEDC is really good at

1110
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:55,120
Speaker 1: is making Higgs bosons. It was built to discover the Higgs,

1111
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:57,760
Speaker 1: but it was also built to discover lots of different

1112
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 1: versions of the Higgs, because we didn't know in advance

1113
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:03,000
Speaker 1: how much mass the Higgs would have, and so exactly

1114
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:05,319
Speaker 1: the best way to make it. So proton collider is

1115
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 1: really good at discovering things you don't know much about,

1116
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:10,279
Speaker 1: because it can make lots of different kinds of things.

1117
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:12,719
Speaker 1: Now that we know more about the Higgs boson, people

1118
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:15,440
Speaker 1: are talking about making a Higgs factory, which is a

1119
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:17,920
Speaker 1: machine that makes zillions and zillions of higgs. It's like

1120
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:20,760
Speaker 1: perfect for making higgs, and it does it by colliding

1121
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:24,800
Speaker 1: muons actually, so you make beams of muons because muons

1122
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:27,719
Speaker 1: interact with the higgs more than the electrons do. This

1123
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:30,000
Speaker 1: is a good way to make lots of higgs. It's

1124
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:32,520
Speaker 1: really hard to make muon beams because muons don't last

1125
00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:35,080
Speaker 1: very long that the k back into electrons. But people

1126
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:36,880
Speaker 1: have figured that out. So that's one thing on the

1127
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:39,960
Speaker 1: docket for the next colliders. Maybe make a big muon

1128
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:43,560
Speaker 1: collider higgs factory so you can study these things incredible detail.

1129
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:45,560
Speaker 1: So that'd be exciting, but of course you know that

1130
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:47,640
Speaker 1: cost a few bill Yeah, yeah.

1131
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:49,279
Speaker 2: I would like to make a discovery there where people

1132
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:51,840
Speaker 2: can say, like, well, we need to make more Wienersmiths,

1133
00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:54,719
Speaker 2: make more higgs. Like that's a person and that's just

1134
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:57,160
Speaker 2: so great that his name has become, you know, used

1135
00:52:57,200 --> 00:52:59,800
Speaker 2: in that way. But anyway, maybe one day they'll be

1136
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:01,920
Speaker 2: wanting to make more Wienersmiths, but maybe not.

1137
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:04,480
Speaker 1: Maybe one day, And I hope that in a one

1138
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:06,959
Speaker 1: hundred years or a thousand years, people know more about

1139
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:09,360
Speaker 1: the structure of matter and they can talk about the

1140
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:11,880
Speaker 1: fundamental bits and you can smoke banana peels on the

1141
00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:14,000
Speaker 1: roof and talk about why the universe is made out

1142
00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 1: of squiggly ons and what that even means and why

1143
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:18,400
Speaker 1: are the two of them? And you know, to me,

1144
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:20,680
Speaker 1: these are fun philosophical questions and we don't even get

1145
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:22,799
Speaker 1: to ask them yet because we don't know what those

1146
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:25,239
Speaker 1: answers are. And I hope to live long enough to

1147
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:25,799
Speaker 1: see some of that.

1148
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:27,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's cool that we live in a time

1149
00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:30,480
Speaker 2: where you can devise the experiments to ask these questions

1150
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:33,760
Speaker 2: that we've gotten this far down the ladder. So I'm excited.

1151
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:35,480
Speaker 1: The ancient Greece would be very impressed.

1152
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:37,359
Speaker 2: I hope, I think so. Yeah. I mean, even though

1153
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:39,520
Speaker 2: this isn't about fish cuts or fish vomit, I still

1154
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:39,960
Speaker 2: think this.

1155
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:43,040
Speaker 1: Is very cool in a way. It is about fish

1156
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:44,359
Speaker 1: cuts because it's about all of us.

1157
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 2: That's aw man. That was poetic, really poetics modern days.

1158
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:54,880
Speaker 5: Saga over here, all right, all right, thanks everyone for

1159
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:57,359
Speaker 5: going on this journey with us into the dark heart

1160
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:00,400
Speaker 5: of matter and understanding what makes up our uni and

1161
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:01,319
Speaker 5: what we know about it.

1162
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:03,239
Speaker 2: And if you have a question about the universe, you

1163
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:05,520
Speaker 2: can send it to us at Questions at Daniel and

1164
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:07,880
Speaker 2: Kelly dot org. We look forward to hearing from you.

1165
00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:18,920
Speaker 2: Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is produced by Iheartreading. We

1166
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:21,360
Speaker 2: would love to hear from you, We really would.

1167
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:24,279
Speaker 1: We want to know what questions you have about this

1168
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 1: Extraordinary Universe.

1169
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:29,240
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1170
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:32,239
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1171
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 2: back to you.

1172
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:36,400
Speaker 1: We really mean it. We answer every message. Email us

1173
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:39,600
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1174
00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:40,800
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1175
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:44,680
Speaker 2: We have accounts on x, Instagram, Blue Sky and on

1176
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:46,719
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1177
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:48,640
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1178
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:50,319
Speaker 1: Don't be shy, write to us