WEBVTT - The Influence Industry and Climate Obstruction 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.760 A new study out from a regular source here at drilled, 0:00:11.800 --> 0:00:15.640 Doctor Robert Brule with the Institute for Environment and Society 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:19.320 at Brown University reveals just how big a role the 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:25.000 PR industry has played in obstructing climate action. From spreading 0:00:25.040 --> 0:00:30.760 denial and disinformation to manipulating the masses to building political 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:34.400 will for or against certain policies, the PR industry has 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:38.680 been enabling the fossil fuel industries every move for more 0:00:38.720 --> 0:00:42.479 than one hundred years. Today, doctor Brule joins me to 0:00:42.520 --> 0:00:45.640 talk about that research and the firm that's worked the 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:50.239 longest and hardest for big Fossil Edelman. Also joining us 0:00:50.360 --> 0:00:55.279 is former Edelman VP, Christine Arena, founder of Generous Films. 0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:58.640 If you're unfamiliar with Edelman, go back to our mad 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:03.080 Men season season three and listen to episode three, all 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:07.360 about the legendary Daniel Edelman, whose son Richard has followed 0:01:07.400 --> 0:01:10.840 in his footsteps, and the biography the firm commissioned on 0:01:10.920 --> 0:01:14.240 Daniel Edelman. They brag about how he put a human 0:01:14.319 --> 0:01:18.400 face on big oil for the American Petroleum Institute. Today, 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:22.000 we'll talk about PR's role in architect and climate obstruction. 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:26.640 Why PR firms have avoided accountability for so long, and 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:28.920 what it might look like for them to face the 0:01:29.040 --> 0:01:33.160 music that's coming up after this quick break. I'm Amy 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:50.360 Westervelt and this is drilled. This episode is supported by 0:01:50.600 --> 0:01:55.480 Degrees Real Talk about Planet Saving Careers, an original podcast 0:01:55.520 --> 0:01:59.480 from the Environmental Defense Fund. People ask me all the 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:03.520 time what they can do about climate change, and I 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:07.120 feel a little bit like a climate change guidance counselor 0:02:07.120 --> 0:02:11.320 sometimes the short answer is what do you get at, 0:02:11.520 --> 0:02:13.919 what are you interested in? Where can you plug in? 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:17.680 What I like about Degrees is that it helps people 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:20.680 figure out how they could maybe use their job to 0:02:20.720 --> 0:02:24.839 make an impact. Degrees features candid conversations and takeaways from 0:02:24.840 --> 0:02:30.120 today's most inspiring climate change makers. Each episode tells a 0:02:30.160 --> 0:02:33.440 story of how one inspiring change maker found their climate 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:37.520 career and how you can too. There's a new season 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:41.200 out now, season three, and it's all about how, no 0:02:41.320 --> 0:02:44.600 matter the industry, you can find a planet saving job. 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:48.760 I got a sneak preview of season three of Degrees, 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:54.000 and I loved it, especially the episode about Lake Street Drive, 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:57.639 which is a green band, which is actually a lot 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:01.080 harder to pull off than you might think in terms 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:04.040 of all of the disposable things that come along with 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:08.840 touring and concerts and music venues, trying to convince venues 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:12.160 to reduce their waste all of that stuff travel. How 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:14.200 do you figure that out? It was really good and 0:03:14.240 --> 0:03:16.920 there's lots more where that came from. Too. These narrative 0:03:16.960 --> 0:03:20.160 stories will capture your attention and inspire you while giving 0:03:20.160 --> 0:03:23.880 you practical tips on how to get a climate focused career. 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:28.280 Search for Degrees real talk about planet saving careers anywhere 0:03:28.320 --> 0:03:30.760 you listen to podcasts will include a link in the 0:03:30.760 --> 0:03:42.200 show notes. Too Big thanks to Degrees for their support. Okay, so, 0:03:42.360 --> 0:03:46.560 doctor Barwl, maybe you could start by explaining what prompted 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:49.640 this study in the first place. You know, what information 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:51.200 were you looking for. 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:54.040 For a long time, I've studied the environmental movement and 0:03:54.080 --> 0:03:58.480 the climate movement, and around twenty twelve I started to 0:03:59.080 --> 0:04:02.640 focus on on what I call the climate counter movement, 0:04:03.560 --> 0:04:08.680 which is the organized effort to stop climate action in 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:12.080 the United States. And so I started looking at conservative 0:04:12.080 --> 0:04:14.800 think tanks and who funds them and what their role 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:19.279 was in the climate obstruction process. And as I'm going 0:04:19.320 --> 0:04:22.760 through that data, I started, you know, I'm looking at 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:25.400 dollar figures of you know, a total budget of two 0:04:25.440 --> 0:04:29.960 million dollars here or three million dollars here for organizations 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:35.120 like the Heartland or the Competitive Enterprise Institute. And I 0:04:35.200 --> 0:04:38.880 decided to branch out into looking at trade associations like 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:41.640 the American Petroleum Institute. So I started to get the 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:46.320 IRS data on the American Petroleum Institute, and suddenly I'm 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:49.559 looking at a budget of two hundred and twenty five 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:54.479 million dollars as opposed to three million for the Heartland Institute. 0:04:54.520 --> 0:04:57.080 And so I'm going, my goodness, you know, this is 0:04:57.360 --> 0:05:00.920 at least one hundred times larger as the amount of 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:04.840 money going into their political activities. And then I started 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:07.919 to look at, well, where's that money going? And I 0:05:08.040 --> 0:05:13.479 came across a contract from the American Petroleum Institute to 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:18.960 Ableman Communications in twenty ten for about seventy five million 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:23.720 dollars to one organization from one other organization. And that 0:05:23.800 --> 0:05:27.080 really piqued my interest because even if I add up 0:05:27.400 --> 0:05:33.760 all of the money going into the climate science denial efforts, 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:37.560 I recently published a paper on that, and it amounts to 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:43.680 about thirty six million dollars annually. And I'm looking at 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:46.880 a contract in one year of seventy five million dollars 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:52.919 for one organization in PR And I said, how much 0:05:53.080 --> 0:05:56.240 of this is going on? You know, do we have 0:05:56.279 --> 0:05:58.599 any good studies of this? And it turns out that 0:05:58.680 --> 0:06:03.680 the answer is no, we're not looking that nobody had 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:07.560 done any peer reviewed research into the extent of the 0:06:07.680 --> 0:06:12.000 role of advertising companies in the climate change arena. I mean, 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:15.680 there were an isolated study here about this particular campaign 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:18.640 or this particular campaign, but it didn't give you an 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:23.560 overall comparative idea of how much activity there was. So 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:26.200 I decided, let's go look at that. I'm just wondering 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:28.880 how much of this is there? So I set out 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:34.720 to do a really really basic discovery study where all 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:36.760 I wanted to know is, well, how much is there 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:39.479 and what do they do? What is this? And so 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:42.800 we compiled the list of about two I think it 0:06:42.839 --> 0:06:48.160 was two hundred and fourteen organizations that are prominent players 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:53.080 in climate politics. And it's all of the usual actors, API, 0:06:53.600 --> 0:07:00.120 Sierra Club and our DC, Exxonmobile, Chevron, etc. We have 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:03.760 a list of two hundred and fourteen organizations. And then 0:07:03.960 --> 0:07:06.560 I looked up it turns out that there's a corporate 0:07:06.600 --> 0:07:12.600 directory that's put out annually by o'dwyers that basically, PR 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:15.800 firms send in who they work for, you know, lists 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:18.880 who they worked for. So we collected them all. That 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:21.200 took a while, and then we just go in and 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:25.120 we do a match. Who worked for Exon Mobile, we listed, 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:29.960 who worked for Sierra Club, We listed, who worked for Chevron, 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:33.360 we listed, and we just compiled that data very simple, 0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:36.960 and that forms the backbone of the paper. It's just 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:42.360 a very descriptive paper. We make no claims about the 0:07:42.400 --> 0:07:46.400 content of their advertising campaigns. We just sort of say 0:07:46.560 --> 0:07:49.160 this is the frequency of employment that we see from 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:52.679 this data. Then we said, well, what do these PR 0:07:52.760 --> 0:07:56.920 firms do for these organizations? So we did a Lexus 0:07:56.960 --> 0:08:01.640 Nexus search of all of the media coverage from nineteen 0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:06.800 eighty nine to the year two thousand that involved one 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:10.320 of our two hundred and fourteen organizations and tried to 0:08:10.360 --> 0:08:14.000 find all the media coverage that had to do with 0:08:14.240 --> 0:08:18.720 advertising by these companies. And we compiled that and we 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:24.000 wrote a forty page supplemental material to the report. So 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:28.320 we focused on the ten largest PR companies that are 0:08:28.320 --> 0:08:31.760 engaged in this area based on our data, and then 0:08:31.800 --> 0:08:35.040 we found another ten that had gotten an extreme amount 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:39.760 of coverage because of their activities were seen as controversial 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:44.559 or obviously newsworthy. And what we found is that regardless 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:50.360 of whether they're working for the Sierra Club or Greenpeace, 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:57.400 or Exon Mobile or the American fuel and petrochemical manufacturers, 0:08:57.520 --> 0:09:01.520 the strategies and tactics of PR are pretty much similar 0:09:01.559 --> 0:09:06.800 across the board. There's a well defined discipline of public 0:09:06.840 --> 0:09:11.600 relations activities that is carried out on behalf of both sides. 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:15.400 And what this tells me in the end is that one, 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:21.000 basically everybody uses public relations as part of their effort 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:26.480 to either support or to obstruct action on climate change. Two, 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:30.680 they use pretty similar tactics, and so basically this is 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:36.800 a ubiquitous and under examined area of the effort to 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:39.760 obstruct climate action. The other thing we found is that 0:09:40.360 --> 0:09:47.120 it's not about denying climate science. The climate science denial 0:09:48.400 --> 0:09:52.679 it's less expensive to do than to try to change 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:56.400 public opinion or to shift the cultural discourse, which is 0:09:56.440 --> 0:09:59.520 what a lot of these PR campaigns do. So it 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:04.000 might only cost thirty or forty million dollars to try 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:06.959 to cast out on climate science, but if you want 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:10.000 to move all the public opinion of people in the 0:10:10.080 --> 0:10:13.199 United States, or you want to shift congressional discourse about 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:16.960 it or media discourse on it. That's a much bigger proposition. 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:22.240 And I've seen figures that range, you know, depending on 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:25.400 the year, of course, but between five hundred million and 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:29.520 seven hundred million dollars a year is spent on these 0:10:29.679 --> 0:10:34.040 pr activities to obstruct climate action. And if you only 0:10:34.080 --> 0:10:39.360 look at climate science denial, you're missing this other amount 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:42.480 of money that's probably ten or twenty times larger than 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:45.480 the climate science denial efforts. So I think, you know, 0:10:45.520 --> 0:10:48.560 for me, what I'm hoping that this study does is 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:54.880 that it puts the role of the public relations organizations 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:57.800 on the map, because it's pretty clear to me that 0:10:57.880 --> 0:11:02.000 they are integral to the efforts to obstruct climate action, 0:11:02.160 --> 0:11:05.800 and that they are independent actors, you know, in other words, 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:08.839 they bid on these contracts and get them, but they 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:11.720 choose to bid on what contracts they want to take 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:13.960 and which ones they don't want to take, and so 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:18.280 they're voluntarily signing on to assist in these efforts, whether 0:11:18.360 --> 0:11:22.000 it's helping to forward climate action. Public relations are to 0:11:22.120 --> 0:11:25.160 obstruct climate action, which is what the vast majority of 0:11:25.200 --> 0:11:29.280 these organizations are engaged in. So with that, I think 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:33.760 hopefully this puts the role of public relations firms on 0:11:33.920 --> 0:11:40.920 par with Exon Mobile or API or Environmental Defense Fund, 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:45.080 is that these organizations are significant actors. They're the people 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:49.760 that Exon Mobile or API go to to say we 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:52.880 need this done for us, and they're the people that 0:11:53.040 --> 0:11:56.040 carry it out and execute it. And so they are 0:11:56.160 --> 0:11:59.800 part of the effort to either forward climate action or 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:02.720 struck climate action. And I think that it's going to 0:12:02.720 --> 0:12:05.679 be interesting to see how they're held accountable for their 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:06.880 activities in the future. 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:12.400 That's great, Okay, So I want to bring in Christine Arena. 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:14.840 She is the head of Generalis Films and she is 0:12:14.920 --> 0:12:18.680 also a former VP at Edelman. I'd love to hear 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:21.960 just your kind of initial response when you first saw 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:24.319 the information in this study. 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:27.920 What did you think, Well, just to drill down on 0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:31.320 what doctor Bull is saying, it was eye opening to 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:34.160 see this is really the most comprehensive look to date 0:12:34.600 --> 0:12:37.920 on how PR firms and AD firms really are a 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:42.360 major force in obstructing climate action. And also to doctor 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:46.679 Bull's point, PR and AD firms are central players in 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:50.280 what we look at as the influence industry. Right so 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:54.320 Exon Mobile can't do what it's doing without its influence 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:57.960 industry partners. Those partners include law firms, those partners include 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:01.960 lobbying organizations right when think tanks and PR and ad 0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:05.800 firms are part of that influence industry and they're central players. 0:13:06.240 --> 0:13:09.680 And so what doctor Burle is describing is incredibly important 0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:12.280 because when you look at the resources channel through these 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:15.040 influence industry partners, PR and ad firms are taking a 0:13:15.040 --> 0:13:18.600 big chunk of the money. A lot of emphasis is 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:24.960 on external facing advertising, marketing and promotion that helps prop 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:28.720 up Exon Mobile or the fossil fuel industry social license 0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:31.800 to operate. And the point of doing that is to 0:13:31.880 --> 0:13:35.120 give the world a sense that we got it. To 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:39.079 quote API, we're on it. We don't need regulation, you know, 0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:43.680 we're good corporate actors. And so this is really, I think, 0:13:43.800 --> 0:13:46.400 just such a valuable study. And to me, also the 0:13:46.440 --> 0:13:50.760 major contribution is that it really helps illustrate why we are 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:54.520 where we are on climate policy today. So to this 0:13:54.679 --> 0:13:57.760 point that doctor Burl's making, instead of the focus on 0:13:58.000 --> 0:14:02.880 outright climate denial or are questioning the science, I think 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:06.720 our focus, everyone's focus, the public's focus needs to shift 0:14:06.760 --> 0:14:10.160 to climate obstruction, what that is, what it looks like 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:14.560 in corporate propaganda as well. That's where the game is now. 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:18.000 And to me, that's what's so valuable about the study. 0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:20.560 It points this out and it really shows who the 0:14:20.600 --> 0:14:23.960 major actors are and the kinds of activities they're engaged 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:27.120 and on behalf of their clients. The three questions the 0:14:27.160 --> 0:14:29.880 paper answers, which I think are so interesting, are you know, 0:14:30.000 --> 0:14:33.560 which are the firms that are the most utilized by 0:14:33.640 --> 0:14:37.800 the industry, who has the deepest relationships, and then what's 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:41.440 the extent of their involvement in climate politics and what 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:45.280 activities do they undertake to advance fossil fuel interests? And 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:48.080 I think what is really interesting with respect to the 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:51.119 first point about the PR firms that are most utilized, 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:55.200 is that we see that the current debate around whether 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:59.000 or not fossil fuel clients deserve representation is really a 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:04.360 flawed debate. It's not a debate. In fact, we're not going, oh, 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:07.960 should PR and AD firms represent these clients? Should they not? 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:12.040 This is not an ideological debate. The real issues are 0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:16.360 how are they currently represented? How are fossil fuel clients 0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:21.080 currently represented by PR and ad firms and to what end, like, 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:23.800 what is the result of that? And so I think, 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:26.960 as this research shows, there are some PR firms and 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:30.720 AD firms that have relationships, you know, with some fossil 0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:33.480 fuel clients, but then we see that there are other 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:40.480 firms with deep, deep relationships across these sectors oil, gas, coal, rail, 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:44.120 utility and these fears. You know, you got your corporate 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:48.440 clients like Exxons and Chevrons and then trade associations, and 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:51.920 there's such a difference. You know, you got your American 0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:57.280 petroleum institutes, but also some of the more obstructing organizations 0:15:57.320 --> 0:16:00.880 like American fuel and petrochemical manufacturers and others that are 0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:05.480 considered more extreme. So that's actually interesting because some of 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:07.720 those bigger relationships, and then if you look at the 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:11.920 resources spent with those trade associations, if you're a business 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:16.720 leader and you're representing those clients, you cannot plausibly, incredibly 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:20.360 argue that your decision to represent them is neutral. It's 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:23.800 not a neutral decision because the entire purpose of some 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:28.200 of these super obstructing trade associations is to do just 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:31.720 that they exist in order to obstruct climate action. That's 0:16:31.720 --> 0:16:34.920 their role, that's their purpose, that's the value proposition. So 0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:38.120 you are not advancing any goal other than climate obstruction 0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:41.520 by representing these clients, you are not helping to bring 0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:44.760 the energy transition into being, So any spin on that 0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:48.600 I think is really squelched, especially as doctor Brule is 0:16:48.640 --> 0:16:52.000 sort of unveiled the spending and the big, big contracts. 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:55.840 So I think that's very interesting finding there, and it 0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:59.800 kind of puts, I think, a lid on the party 0:16:59.840 --> 0:17:02.000 line and from the industry, which is that look, we 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:05.439 represent all clients, we're unbiased, we help everyone. That's not 0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:10.160 really true. Representation is not neutral, and certainly the outcome 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:13.440 of representation is not neutral. And then the other aspect 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:16.080 of the study that I find so interesting is just 0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:21.560 this drill down on disinformation. The fact that the vast 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:26.920 majority of ads and marketing messages evaluated across a sample 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:32.560 set of one hundred and seventy nine clients contain factual distortions, omissions, 0:17:32.600 --> 0:17:35.919 and greenwashing. That should be an alarm bell for the 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:41.080 entire industry, because not only are these messages misleading, but 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:45.840 they're uniquely harmful to people. And I think that is 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:49.280 really something that we're going to see play out over 0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:52.600 the next year as we see how these ag lawsuits. 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:57.520 Do you know, we got Mara Healey, Attorney General of Massachusetts. 0:17:57.920 --> 0:18:02.679 She successfully prosecuted Pretty Pharma and the Sackler family, but 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:05.560 in the process of doing that she also named McKinsey 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:09.320 their marketing partner, and you know, they settled for six 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:12.800 hundred million there. So there is definitely a precedent that 0:18:12.960 --> 0:18:17.080 shows that professional services firms are not immune, that client 0:18:17.160 --> 0:18:20.879 privilege is not a panacea, and that is really just 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:24.159 the point I think that activists should juilt down on, 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:26.600 and I think it's something that I want employees inside 0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:30.720 these agencies to be really aware of. That disinformation, the 0:18:30.800 --> 0:18:34.119 fact that most of the messaging coming out of the 0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:37.600 oil industry, the fossil fuel industry now contains these distortions 0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:41.919 emissions are in greenwashing, and those distortions emissions are harmful, 0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:47.040 potentially harmful to people. That is just such an important point. 0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:51.080 So speaking of people inside of these agencies, I want 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:53.920 to hear a little bit about both the media coverage 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:56.960 of the study, Doctor Brule, who you've been talking to 0:18:57.119 --> 0:18:59.919 and who's covered it and who hasn't, and then also 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:04.719 what you guys have both been seeing from from Edelman, 0:19:04.920 --> 0:19:08.360 which you know kind of looms large in this report. 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:11.240 So maybe doctor Brule few and us speak first to 0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:13.280 you know, what the media response has been. 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:18.200 We've had I think about ten or twelve stories coming out. 0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:21.960 Your Washington Post got it in their newsletter. What's what's 0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:24.920 been interesting for me is what's missing is that Wall 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:27.919 Street Journal didn't cover it. The New York Times has 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:32.000 yet to cover it. So that for me, I guess, 0:19:32.160 --> 0:19:35.480 is one area. But I mean, as far as the 0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:40.720 coverage itself, I find it incredibly amusing that every one 0:19:40.800 --> 0:19:44.560 of the media outlets that I talked to also tried 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:49.280 to contact Aleman Communications and the answer was no comment, 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:52.480 no comment, no comment, no comment, no comment, and no comment. 0:19:53.240 --> 0:19:56.600 I mean, this is not a controversial topic. As far 0:19:56.600 --> 0:19:59.040 as I can see, is that this is just as 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:03.399 great descriptive analysis. I mean to follow on though a 0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:06.679 little bit with Christine is that I think what we 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:11.720 really need to recognize is that it's not just about disinformation, 0:20:12.000 --> 0:20:17.959 it's about manipulation of consciousness. Is that what these PR 0:20:18.040 --> 0:20:20.560 firms do, and they spend I mean I did a 0:20:20.600 --> 0:20:23.640 paper on this up to like one point five billion 0:20:23.720 --> 0:20:28.240 dollars from I think like nineteen eighty nine to twenty fifteen, 0:20:28.320 --> 0:20:31.240 I think one point three billion dollars one point five 0:20:31.280 --> 0:20:38.680 billion dollars. We know that the public relations industry itself 0:20:39.480 --> 0:20:46.119 has bragged about the result of their activities regarding the 0:20:46.119 --> 0:20:49.639 effectiveness of what they do. Some new information I have 0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:52.840 on this is that documents from the Global Climate Coalition 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:57.520 and their efforts and their pr efforts by ebrew Sarason 0:20:57.640 --> 0:21:02.080 claimed that this is a quote GCC has successfully turned 0:21:02.080 --> 0:21:05.280 the tide on press coverage of global climate change science, 0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:11.600 effectively countering the eco catastrophe message, and asserted the lack 0:21:11.680 --> 0:21:15.800 of scientific consensus on global climate And then again they 0:21:15.840 --> 0:21:19.439 claimed GCC's effort to raise awareness of the science and 0:21:19.520 --> 0:21:25.080 economics of climate change influenced the administration's decision to rely 0:21:25.240 --> 0:21:29.400 on voluntary rather than mandatory measures to reduce climate change 0:21:29.720 --> 0:21:33.800 greenhouse gas emissions in its Climate Change Action policy. In 0:21:33.840 --> 0:21:37.119 other words, they're claiming that they're able to manipulate the 0:21:37.200 --> 0:21:42.200 consciousness of the American public, that they're able to manipulate 0:21:42.280 --> 0:21:46.080 and shift the media coverage of it, and that they're 0:21:46.160 --> 0:21:50.640 able to manipulate the public opinion so that climate change 0:21:50.720 --> 0:21:53.240 is not seen to be problematic and that climate science 0:21:53.359 --> 0:21:58.080 is inaccurate and that they're able to manipulate and change 0:21:58.400 --> 0:22:02.199 public policy because of these perr activities. 0:22:03.119 --> 0:22:05.959 Christine, what have you been seeing from the agency itself 0:22:06.000 --> 0:22:07.520 and what you know in terms of this sort of 0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:09.919 no common, no comment, now comment, how how much did 0:22:09.960 --> 0:22:12.359 you sort of expect that to be the reaction and 0:22:12.440 --> 0:22:14.119 what do you expect to see going forward. 0:22:14.800 --> 0:22:20.639 I absolutely expected the containment strategy that we've seen for 0:22:20.840 --> 0:22:24.440 the past, you know, five six years on these stories continue. 0:22:24.720 --> 0:22:28.840 A containment strategy is simply when you put up barriers 0:22:29.240 --> 0:22:32.240 to discussion because you don't want to address the material issues. 0:22:32.280 --> 0:22:34.639 You're going to try to undermine your critics. You're going 0:22:34.680 --> 0:22:37.240 to try to say, you know, this journalist from the 0:22:37.240 --> 0:22:39.960 New York Times wrote the story about FTI, she's biased 0:22:39.960 --> 0:22:42.320 against the fossil fuel industry. You're going to try to 0:22:42.400 --> 0:22:47.920 downplay this peer reviewed research. As activists, you know, you're 0:22:47.920 --> 0:22:50.840 going to not comment. You're going to instruct your employees 0:22:50.840 --> 0:22:53.359 not to comment. You're going to issue can statements that 0:22:53.480 --> 0:22:57.040 don't really address the material issues. You're going to pledge 0:22:57.359 --> 0:23:00.679 to not represent climate deniers when clearly no one is 0:23:00.720 --> 0:23:05.160 denying climate change anymore. The game has moved, so that 0:23:05.480 --> 0:23:08.760 is expected. It's what they've been doing for years, and 0:23:08.800 --> 0:23:12.520 it's not surprising. It is infuriating, but it's not surprising. 0:23:13.000 --> 0:23:15.720 I'm a little more bullish than doctor Burull on the 0:23:15.800 --> 0:23:20.240 long term implications here, because my attitude is they can 0:23:20.240 --> 0:23:22.800 issue as many no comments as they like, they can 0:23:22.880 --> 0:23:26.840 post as many canned environmental statements on their websites as 0:23:26.880 --> 0:23:29.600 they like. But I think that these old school containment 0:23:29.640 --> 0:23:33.439 strategies are just not going to succeed against the weight 0:23:33.640 --> 0:23:37.880 of this particular story and in today's climate, because let's 0:23:37.920 --> 0:23:41.880 not forget we really are in an era of accountability 0:23:41.960 --> 0:23:45.720 and accountability journalism. I mean, we got whistleblowers on the 0:23:45.720 --> 0:23:50.639 cover of Time magazine. So disinformation is a huge issue nationally, 0:23:50.800 --> 0:23:53.879 and when we drill down to climate disinformation, this is 0:23:53.960 --> 0:23:58.399 about a lot more than agencies are presently acknowledging. Because 0:23:58.480 --> 0:24:01.160 now not only do we have this body of peer 0:24:01.160 --> 0:24:05.840 reviewed evidence, but there's the seven state ag lawsuits filed 0:24:05.840 --> 0:24:09.320 on the basis of deceptive marketing practices. There's a congressional 0:24:09.359 --> 0:24:13.159 investigation into big oil disinformation. Subpoena is issued there. And 0:24:13.240 --> 0:24:16.760 so I do think that journalists, including inside the trades 0:24:16.960 --> 0:24:20.000 are going to start to ask tougher questions rather than 0:24:20.040 --> 0:24:24.720 towing the agency party line. So offending firms are really 0:24:24.760 --> 0:24:27.520 starting to receive pressure from all sides. They might not 0:24:27.720 --> 0:24:31.160 yet acknowledge this publicly, but that's what's really going on. 0:24:32.119 --> 0:24:34.840 Yeah, that's interesting. What do you guys both think about 0:24:34.840 --> 0:24:37.120 the fact that Edelman has announced that they are going 0:24:37.240 --> 0:24:40.760 to review their client roster. What does that mean when 0:24:40.800 --> 0:24:42.760 a firm reviews their claire roster? 0:24:42.960 --> 0:24:46.160 What do you think they did that, you know, after 0:24:46.200 --> 0:24:50.200 they got kind of beat up by clean creatives to say, well, 0:24:50.200 --> 0:24:51.920 we're going to look at maybe we're not going to 0:24:52.200 --> 0:24:55.880 keep working for fossil fuel companies. And maybe they maybe 0:24:55.880 --> 0:24:57.760 they will probably you know, they're going to throw somebody 0:24:57.760 --> 0:25:00.639 out of the bus to do this. But you know, 0:25:01.000 --> 0:25:03.480 guess what, you've been doing this for twenty years. You've 0:25:03.520 --> 0:25:07.080 got a history here, you've got an accountability here. Part 0:25:07.119 --> 0:25:11.280 of your effort is contributed to the obstruction of climate 0:25:11.320 --> 0:25:16.000 action and the you know, promulgation of false advertising and 0:25:16.320 --> 0:25:20.720 disingenuous activities that you know, you can't say, oh, well 0:25:20.760 --> 0:25:22.159 we're not going to you know, we're not going to 0:25:22.240 --> 0:25:25.000 continue to do these evil things. Yeah, okay, but that's 0:25:25.040 --> 0:25:29.400 not an excuse to an accountability for their past actions. 0:25:29.560 --> 0:25:31.440 I think they're going to try to not talk about 0:25:31.480 --> 0:25:33.440 their past activities. Yeah. 0:25:33.440 --> 0:25:36.800 I couldn't agree more. The story is just getting started. 0:25:37.200 --> 0:25:39.520 This is not just a bunch of activists. This is 0:25:39.600 --> 0:25:42.280 not a short term media cycle. This is a long 0:25:42.320 --> 0:25:44.800 gain and it's going to escalate over the next twelve months, 0:25:45.040 --> 0:25:48.840 particularly as we go into round two of the House investigation. 0:25:49.240 --> 0:25:52.359 But you know this whole thing about the sixty day review, Look, 0:25:52.560 --> 0:25:54.960 that is just a delay tactic so that they don't 0:25:55.000 --> 0:25:57.960 really have to say anything publicly and materially and all 0:25:58.119 --> 0:26:01.000 next year they can wait to see if other agencies respond. 0:26:01.359 --> 0:26:04.200 They're buying a little time. We're going to review our 0:26:04.240 --> 0:26:07.159 client roster. Well, that gives them the opportunity then to 0:26:07.240 --> 0:26:11.560