1 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: A new study out from a regular source here at drilled, 2 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 1: Doctor Robert Brule with the Institute for Environment and Society 3 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: at Brown University reveals just how big a role the 4 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: PR industry has played in obstructing climate action. From spreading 5 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: denial and disinformation to manipulating the masses to building political 6 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: will for or against certain policies, the PR industry has 7 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: been enabling the fossil fuel industries every move for more 8 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:42,479 Speaker 1: than one hundred years. Today, doctor Brule joins me to 9 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: talk about that research and the firm that's worked the 10 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:50,239 Speaker 1: longest and hardest for big Fossil Edelman. Also joining us 11 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:55,279 Speaker 1: is former Edelman VP, Christine Arena, founder of Generous Films. 12 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 1: If you're unfamiliar with Edelman, go back to our mad 13 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: Men season season three and listen to episode three, all 14 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: about the legendary Daniel Edelman, whose son Richard has followed 15 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 1: in his footsteps, and the biography the firm commissioned on 16 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: Daniel Edelman. They brag about how he put a human 17 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:18,400 Speaker 1: face on big oil for the American Petroleum Institute. Today, 18 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: we'll talk about PR's role in architect and climate obstruction. 19 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: Why PR firms have avoided accountability for so long, and 20 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 1: what it might look like for them to face the 21 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: music that's coming up after this quick break. I'm Amy 22 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: Westervelt and this is drilled. This episode is supported by 23 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: Degrees Real Talk about Planet Saving Careers, an original podcast 24 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: from the Environmental Defense Fund. People ask me all the 25 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: time what they can do about climate change, and I 26 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: feel a little bit like a climate change guidance counselor 27 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: sometimes the short answer is what do you get at, 28 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:13,919 Speaker 1: what are you interested in? Where can you plug in? 29 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 1: What I like about Degrees is that it helps people 30 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: figure out how they could maybe use their job to 31 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:24,839 Speaker 1: make an impact. Degrees features candid conversations and takeaways from 32 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 1: today's most inspiring climate change makers. Each episode tells a 33 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 1: story of how one inspiring change maker found their climate 34 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 1: career and how you can too. There's a new season 35 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: out now, season three, and it's all about how, no 36 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: matter the industry, you can find a planet saving job. 37 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: I got a sneak preview of season three of Degrees, 38 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: and I loved it, especially the episode about Lake Street Drive, 39 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:57,639 Speaker 1: which is a green band, which is actually a lot 40 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 1: harder to pull off than you might think in terms 41 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: of all of the disposable things that come along with 42 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 1: touring and concerts and music venues, trying to convince venues 43 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 1: to reduce their waste all of that stuff travel. How 44 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: do you figure that out? It was really good and 45 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 1: there's lots more where that came from. Too. These narrative 46 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: stories will capture your attention and inspire you while giving 47 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 1: you practical tips on how to get a climate focused career. 48 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 1: Search for Degrees real talk about planet saving careers anywhere 49 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: you listen to podcasts will include a link in the 50 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: show notes. Too Big thanks to Degrees for their support. Okay, so, 51 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: doctor Barwl, maybe you could start by explaining what prompted 52 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 1: this study in the first place. You know, what information 53 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: were you looking for. 54 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 2: For a long time, I've studied the environmental movement and 55 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 2: the climate movement, and around twenty twelve I started to 56 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 2: focus on on what I call the climate counter movement, 57 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 2: which is the organized effort to stop climate action in 58 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 2: the United States. And so I started looking at conservative 59 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 2: think tanks and who funds them and what their role 60 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 2: was in the climate obstruction process. And as I'm going 61 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 2: through that data, I started, you know, I'm looking at 62 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 2: dollar figures of you know, a total budget of two 63 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 2: million dollars here or three million dollars here for organizations 64 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 2: like the Heartland or the Competitive Enterprise Institute. And I 65 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 2: decided to branch out into looking at trade associations like 66 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 2: the American Petroleum Institute. So I started to get the 67 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 2: IRS data on the American Petroleum Institute, and suddenly I'm 68 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,559 Speaker 2: looking at a budget of two hundred and twenty five 69 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:54,479 Speaker 2: million dollars as opposed to three million for the Heartland Institute. 70 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 2: And so I'm going, my goodness, you know, this is 71 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 2: at least one hundred times larger as the amount of 72 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:04,840 Speaker 2: money going into their political activities. And then I started 73 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:07,919 Speaker 2: to look at, well, where's that money going? And I 74 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 2: came across a contract from the American Petroleum Institute to 75 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 2: Ableman Communications in twenty ten for about seventy five million 76 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:23,720 Speaker 2: dollars to one organization from one other organization. And that 77 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 2: really piqued my interest because even if I add up 78 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 2: all of the money going into the climate science denial efforts, 79 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 2: I recently published a paper on that, and it amounts to 80 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 2: about thirty six million dollars annually. And I'm looking at 81 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 2: a contract in one year of seventy five million dollars 82 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:52,919 Speaker 2: for one organization in PR And I said, how much 83 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 2: of this is going on? You know, do we have 84 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 2: any good studies of this? And it turns out that 85 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 2: the answer is no, we're not looking that nobody had 86 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 2: done any peer reviewed research into the extent of the 87 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 2: role of advertising companies in the climate change arena. I mean, 88 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 2: there were an isolated study here about this particular campaign 89 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 2: or this particular campaign, but it didn't give you an 90 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 2: overall comparative idea of how much activity there was. So 91 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 2: I decided, let's go look at that. I'm just wondering 92 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 2: how much of this is there? So I set out 93 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:34,720 Speaker 2: to do a really really basic discovery study where all 94 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 2: I wanted to know is, well, how much is there 95 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:39,479 Speaker 2: and what do they do? What is this? And so 96 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 2: we compiled the list of about two I think it 97 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:48,160 Speaker 2: was two hundred and fourteen organizations that are prominent players 98 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 2: in climate politics. And it's all of the usual actors, API, 99 00:06:53,600 --> 00:07:00,120 Speaker 2: Sierra Club and our DC, Exxonmobile, Chevron, etc. We have 100 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 2: a list of two hundred and fourteen organizations. And then 101 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 2: I looked up it turns out that there's a corporate 102 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 2: directory that's put out annually by o'dwyers that basically, PR 103 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 2: firms send in who they work for, you know, lists 104 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 2: who they worked for. So we collected them all. That 105 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 2: took a while, and then we just go in and 106 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 2: we do a match. Who worked for Exon Mobile, we listed, 107 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 2: who worked for Sierra Club, We listed, who worked for Chevron, 108 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 2: we listed, and we just compiled that data very simple, 109 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 2: and that forms the backbone of the paper. It's just 110 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 2: a very descriptive paper. We make no claims about the 111 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 2: content of their advertising campaigns. We just sort of say 112 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 2: this is the frequency of employment that we see from 113 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,679 Speaker 2: this data. Then we said, well, what do these PR 114 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 2: firms do for these organizations? So we did a Lexus 115 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 2: Nexus search of all of the media coverage from nineteen 116 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 2: eighty nine to the year two thousand that involved one 117 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 2: of our two hundred and fourteen organizations and tried to 118 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 2: find all the media coverage that had to do with 119 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 2: advertising by these companies. And we compiled that and we 120 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 2: wrote a forty page supplemental material to the report. So 121 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 2: we focused on the ten largest PR companies that are 122 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 2: engaged in this area based on our data, and then 123 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 2: we found another ten that had gotten an extreme amount 124 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 2: of coverage because of their activities were seen as controversial 125 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:44,559 Speaker 2: or obviously newsworthy. And what we found is that regardless 126 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 2: of whether they're working for the Sierra Club or Greenpeace, 127 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 2: or Exon Mobile or the American fuel and petrochemical manufacturers, 128 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 2: the strategies and tactics of PR are pretty much similar 129 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 2: across the board. There's a well defined discipline of public 130 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 2: relations activities that is carried out on behalf of both sides. 131 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 2: And what this tells me in the end is that one, 132 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 2: basically everybody uses public relations as part of their effort 133 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 2: to either support or to obstruct action on climate change. Two, 134 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 2: they use pretty similar tactics, and so basically this is 135 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 2: a ubiquitous and under examined area of the effort to 136 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 2: obstruct climate action. The other thing we found is that 137 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 2: it's not about denying climate science. The climate science denial 138 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:52,679 Speaker 2: it's less expensive to do than to try to change 139 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 2: public opinion or to shift the cultural discourse, which is 140 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 2: what a lot of these PR campaigns do. So it 141 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 2: might only cost thirty or forty million dollars to try 142 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:06,959 Speaker 2: to cast out on climate science, but if you want 143 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 2: to move all the public opinion of people in the 144 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:13,199 Speaker 2: United States, or you want to shift congressional discourse about 145 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 2: it or media discourse on it. That's a much bigger proposition. 146 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 2: And I've seen figures that range, you know, depending on 147 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 2: the year, of course, but between five hundred million and 148 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 2: seven hundred million dollars a year is spent on these 149 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 2: pr activities to obstruct climate action. And if you only 150 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 2: look at climate science denial, you're missing this other amount 151 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 2: of money that's probably ten or twenty times larger than 152 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 2: the climate science denial efforts. So I think, you know, 153 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 2: for me, what I'm hoping that this study does is 154 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 2: that it puts the role of the public relations organizations 155 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 2: on the map, because it's pretty clear to me that 156 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 2: they are integral to the efforts to obstruct climate action, 157 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 2: and that they are independent actors, you know, in other words, 158 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:08,839 Speaker 2: they bid on these contracts and get them, but they 159 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 2: choose to bid on what contracts they want to take 160 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 2: and which ones they don't want to take, and so 161 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 2: they're voluntarily signing on to assist in these efforts, whether 162 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 2: it's helping to forward climate action. Public relations are to 163 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 2: obstruct climate action, which is what the vast majority of 164 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 2: these organizations are engaged in. So with that, I think 165 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 2: hopefully this puts the role of public relations firms on 166 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 2: par with Exon Mobile or API or Environmental Defense Fund, 167 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 2: is that these organizations are significant actors. They're the people 168 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 2: that Exon Mobile or API go to to say we 169 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 2: need this done for us, and they're the people that 170 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 2: carry it out and execute it. And so they are 171 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 2: part of the effort to either forward climate action or 172 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 2: struck climate action. And I think that it's going to 173 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:05,679 Speaker 2: be interesting to see how they're held accountable for their 174 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 2: activities in the future. 175 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 1: That's great, Okay, So I want to bring in Christine Arena. 176 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 1: She is the head of Generalis Films and she is 177 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 1: also a former VP at Edelman. I'd love to hear 178 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 1: just your kind of initial response when you first saw 179 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:24,319 Speaker 1: the information in this study. 180 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 3: What did you think, Well, just to drill down on 181 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 3: what doctor Bull is saying, it was eye opening to 182 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 3: see this is really the most comprehensive look to date 183 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 3: on how PR firms and AD firms really are a 184 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 3: major force in obstructing climate action. And also to doctor 185 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:46,679 Speaker 3: Bull's point, PR and AD firms are central players in 186 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 3: what we look at as the influence industry. Right so 187 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:54,320 Speaker 3: Exon Mobile can't do what it's doing without its influence 188 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,960 Speaker 3: industry partners. Those partners include law firms, those partners include 189 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 3: lobbying organizations right when think tanks and PR and ad 190 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 3: firms are part of that influence industry and they're central players. 191 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:09,680 Speaker 3: And so what doctor Burle is describing is incredibly important 192 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 3: because when you look at the resources channel through these 193 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 3: influence industry partners, PR and ad firms are taking a 194 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 3: big chunk of the money. A lot of emphasis is 195 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 3: on external facing advertising, marketing and promotion that helps prop 196 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 3: up Exon Mobile or the fossil fuel industry social license 197 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 3: to operate. And the point of doing that is to 198 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 3: give the world a sense that we got it. To 199 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:39,079 Speaker 3: quote API, we're on it. We don't need regulation, you know, 200 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:43,680 Speaker 3: we're good corporate actors. And so this is really, I think, 201 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 3: just such a valuable study. And to me, also the 202 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 3: major contribution is that it really helps illustrate why we are 203 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 3: where we are on climate policy today. So to this 204 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 3: point that doctor Burl's making, instead of the focus on 205 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 3: outright climate denial or are questioning the science, I think 206 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 3: our focus, everyone's focus, the public's focus needs to shift 207 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 3: to climate obstruction, what that is, what it looks like 208 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 3: in corporate propaganda as well. That's where the game is now. 209 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 3: And to me, that's what's so valuable about the study. 210 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 3: It points this out and it really shows who the 211 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 3: major actors are and the kinds of activities they're engaged 212 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 3: and on behalf of their clients. The three questions the 213 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 3: paper answers, which I think are so interesting, are you know, 214 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 3: which are the firms that are the most utilized by 215 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 3: the industry, who has the deepest relationships, and then what's 216 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 3: the extent of their involvement in climate politics and what 217 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 3: activities do they undertake to advance fossil fuel interests? And 218 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 3: I think what is really interesting with respect to the 219 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,119 Speaker 3: first point about the PR firms that are most utilized, 220 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 3: is that we see that the current debate around whether 221 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 3: or not fossil fuel clients deserve representation is really a 222 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 3: flawed debate. It's not a debate. In fact, we're not going, oh, 223 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 3: should PR and AD firms represent these clients? Should they not? 224 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 3: This is not an ideological debate. The real issues are 225 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 3: how are they currently represented? How are fossil fuel clients 226 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 3: currently represented by PR and ad firms and to what end, like, 227 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 3: what is the result of that? And so I think, 228 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 3: as this research shows, there are some PR firms and 229 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 3: AD firms that have relationships, you know, with some fossil 230 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 3: fuel clients, but then we see that there are other 231 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 3: firms with deep, deep relationships across these sectors oil, gas, coal, rail, 232 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 3: utility and these fears. You know, you got your corporate 233 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 3: clients like Exxons and Chevrons and then trade associations, and 234 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 3: there's such a difference. You know, you got your American 235 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 3: petroleum institutes, but also some of the more obstructing organizations 236 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 3: like American fuel and petrochemical manufacturers and others that are 237 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 3: considered more extreme. So that's actually interesting because some of 238 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 3: those bigger relationships, and then if you look at the 239 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 3: resources spent with those trade associations, if you're a business 240 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 3: leader and you're representing those clients, you cannot plausibly, incredibly 241 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 3: argue that your decision to represent them is neutral. It's 242 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 3: not a neutral decision because the entire purpose of some 243 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 3: of these super obstructing trade associations is to do just 244 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 3: that they exist in order to obstruct climate action. That's 245 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 3: their role, that's their purpose, that's the value proposition. So 246 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 3: you are not advancing any goal other than climate obstruction 247 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 3: by representing these clients, you are not helping to bring 248 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 3: the energy transition into being, So any spin on that 249 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 3: I think is really squelched, especially as doctor Brule is 250 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 3: sort of unveiled the spending and the big, big contracts. 251 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 3: So I think that's very interesting finding there, and it 252 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 3: kind of puts, I think, a lid on the party 253 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 3: line and from the industry, which is that look, we 254 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:05,439 Speaker 3: represent all clients, we're unbiased, we help everyone. That's not 255 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:10,160 Speaker 3: really true. Representation is not neutral, and certainly the outcome 256 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 3: of representation is not neutral. And then the other aspect 257 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 3: of the study that I find so interesting is just 258 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 3: this drill down on disinformation. The fact that the vast 259 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 3: majority of ads and marketing messages evaluated across a sample 260 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 3: set of one hundred and seventy nine clients contain factual distortions, omissions, 261 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,919 Speaker 3: and greenwashing. That should be an alarm bell for the 262 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 3: entire industry, because not only are these messages misleading, but 263 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 3: they're uniquely harmful to people. And I think that is 264 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 3: really something that we're going to see play out over 265 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 3: the next year as we see how these ag lawsuits. 266 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 3: Do you know, we got Mara Healey, Attorney General of Massachusetts. 267 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:02,679 Speaker 3: She successfully prosecuted Pretty Pharma and the Sackler family, but 268 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 3: in the process of doing that she also named McKinsey 269 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 3: their marketing partner, and you know, they settled for six 270 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 3: hundred million there. So there is definitely a precedent that 271 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 3: shows that professional services firms are not immune, that client 272 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 3: privilege is not a panacea, and that is really just 273 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 3: the point I think that activists should juilt down on, 274 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 3: and I think it's something that I want employees inside 275 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 3: these agencies to be really aware of. That disinformation, the 276 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:34,119 Speaker 3: fact that most of the messaging coming out of the 277 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 3: oil industry, the fossil fuel industry now contains these distortions 278 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:41,919 Speaker 3: emissions are in greenwashing, and those distortions emissions are harmful, 279 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 3: potentially harmful to people. That is just such an important point. 280 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: So speaking of people inside of these agencies, I want 281 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:53,920 Speaker 1: to hear a little bit about both the media coverage 282 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 1: of the study, Doctor Brule, who you've been talking to 283 00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:59,919 Speaker 1: and who's covered it and who hasn't, and then also 284 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:04,719 Speaker 1: what you guys have both been seeing from from Edelman, 285 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:08,360 Speaker 1: which you know kind of looms large in this report. 286 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 1: So maybe doctor Brule few and us speak first to 287 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: you know, what the media response has been. 288 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 2: We've had I think about ten or twelve stories coming out. 289 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 2: Your Washington Post got it in their newsletter. What's what's 290 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 2: been interesting for me is what's missing is that Wall 291 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,919 Speaker 2: Street Journal didn't cover it. The New York Times has 292 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 2: yet to cover it. So that for me, I guess, 293 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 2: is one area. But I mean, as far as the 294 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 2: coverage itself, I find it incredibly amusing that every one 295 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 2: of the media outlets that I talked to also tried 296 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 2: to contact Aleman Communications and the answer was no comment, 297 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 2: no comment, no comment, no comment, no comment, and no comment. 298 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 2: I mean, this is not a controversial topic. As far 299 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 2: as I can see, is that this is just as 300 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:03,399 Speaker 2: great descriptive analysis. I mean to follow on though a 301 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,679 Speaker 2: little bit with Christine is that I think what we 302 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 2: really need to recognize is that it's not just about disinformation, 303 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:17,959 Speaker 2: it's about manipulation of consciousness. Is that what these PR 304 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 2: firms do, and they spend I mean I did a 305 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,640 Speaker 2: paper on this up to like one point five billion 306 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 2: dollars from I think like nineteen eighty nine to twenty fifteen, 307 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 2: I think one point three billion dollars one point five 308 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 2: billion dollars. We know that the public relations industry itself 309 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 2: has bragged about the result of their activities regarding the 310 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:49,639 Speaker 2: effectiveness of what they do. Some new information I have 311 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 2: on this is that documents from the Global Climate Coalition 312 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 2: and their efforts and their pr efforts by ebrew Sarason 313 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 2: claimed that this is a quote GCC has successfully turned 314 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 2: the tide on press coverage of global climate change science, 315 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 2: effectively countering the eco catastrophe message, and asserted the lack 316 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 2: of scientific consensus on global climate And then again they 317 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:19,439 Speaker 2: claimed GCC's effort to raise awareness of the science and 318 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 2: economics of climate change influenced the administration's decision to rely 319 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:29,400 Speaker 2: on voluntary rather than mandatory measures to reduce climate change 320 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 2: greenhouse gas emissions in its Climate Change Action policy. In 321 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:37,119 Speaker 2: other words, they're claiming that they're able to manipulate the 322 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 2: consciousness of the American public, that they're able to manipulate 323 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 2: and shift the media coverage of it, and that they're 324 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:50,640 Speaker 2: able to manipulate the public opinion so that climate change 325 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 2: is not seen to be problematic and that climate science 326 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 2: is inaccurate and that they're able to manipulate and change 327 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:02,199 Speaker 2: public policy because of these perr activities. 328 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:05,959 Speaker 1: Christine, what have you been seeing from the agency itself 329 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 1: and what you know in terms of this sort of 330 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:09,919 Speaker 1: no common, no comment, now comment, how how much did 331 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 1: you sort of expect that to be the reaction and 332 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 1: what do you expect to see going forward. 333 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:20,639 Speaker 3: I absolutely expected the containment strategy that we've seen for 334 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 3: the past, you know, five six years on these stories continue. 335 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 3: A containment strategy is simply when you put up barriers 336 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 3: to discussion because you don't want to address the material issues. 337 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 3: You're going to try to undermine your critics. You're going 338 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 3: to try to say, you know, this journalist from the 339 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 3: New York Times wrote the story about FTI, she's biased 340 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 3: against the fossil fuel industry. You're going to try to 341 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:47,920 Speaker 3: downplay this peer reviewed research. As activists, you know, you're 342 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 3: going to not comment. You're going to instruct your employees 343 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 3: not to comment. You're going to issue can statements that 344 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 3: don't really address the material issues. You're going to pledge 345 00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:00,679 Speaker 3: to not represent climate deniers when clearly no one is 346 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:05,160 Speaker 3: denying climate change anymore. The game has moved, so that 347 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 3: is expected. It's what they've been doing for years, and 348 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 3: it's not surprising. It is infuriating, but it's not surprising. 349 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 3: I'm a little more bullish than doctor Burull on the 350 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 3: long term implications here, because my attitude is they can 351 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 3: issue as many no comments as they like, they can 352 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 3: post as many canned environmental statements on their websites as 353 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 3: they like. But I think that these old school containment 354 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:33,439 Speaker 3: strategies are just not going to succeed against the weight 355 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,880 Speaker 3: of this particular story and in today's climate, because let's 356 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,880 Speaker 3: not forget we really are in an era of accountability 357 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 3: and accountability journalism. I mean, we got whistleblowers on the 358 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 3: cover of Time magazine. So disinformation is a huge issue nationally, 359 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,879 Speaker 3: and when we drill down to climate disinformation, this is 360 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 3: about a lot more than agencies are presently acknowledging. Because 361 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,160 Speaker 3: now not only do we have this body of peer 362 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 3: reviewed evidence, but there's the seven state ag lawsuits filed 363 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 3: on the basis of deceptive marketing practices. There's a congressional 364 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:13,159 Speaker 3: investigation into big oil disinformation. Subpoena is issued there. And 365 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 3: so I do think that journalists, including inside the trades 366 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 3: are going to start to ask tougher questions rather than 367 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 3: towing the agency party line. So offending firms are really 368 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 3: starting to receive pressure from all sides. They might not 369 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:31,160 Speaker 3: yet acknowledge this publicly, but that's what's really going on. 370 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting. What do you guys both think about 371 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,120 Speaker 1: the fact that Edelman has announced that they are going 372 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: to review their client roster. What does that mean when 373 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: a firm reviews their claire roster? 374 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,160 Speaker 2: What do you think they did that, you know, after 375 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 2: they got kind of beat up by clean creatives to say, well, 376 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:51,920 Speaker 2: we're going to look at maybe we're not going to 377 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,880 Speaker 2: keep working for fossil fuel companies. And maybe they maybe 378 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 2: they will probably you know, they're going to throw somebody 379 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,639 Speaker 2: out of the bus to do this. But you know, 380 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 2: guess what, you've been doing this for twenty years. You've 381 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 2: got a history here, you've got an accountability here. Part 382 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 2: of your effort is contributed to the obstruction of climate 383 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 2: action and the you know, promulgation of false advertising and 384 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 2: disingenuous activities that you know, you can't say, oh, well 385 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:22,159 Speaker 2: we're not going to you know, we're not going to 386 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 2: continue to do these evil things. Yeah, okay, but that's 387 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:29,400 Speaker 2: not an excuse to an accountability for their past actions. 388 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 2: I think they're going to try to not talk about 389 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:33,440 Speaker 2: their past activities. Yeah. 390 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 3: I couldn't agree more. The story is just getting started. 391 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 3: This is not just a bunch of activists. This is 392 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 3: not a short term media cycle. This is a long 393 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 3: gain and it's going to escalate over the next twelve months, 394 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 3: particularly as we go into round two of the House investigation. 395 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 3: But you know this whole thing about the sixty day review, Look, 396 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 3: that is just a delay tactic so that they don't 397 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 3: really have to say anything publicly and materially and all 398 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 3: next year they can wait to see if other agencies respond. 399 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,200 Speaker 3: They're buying a little time. We're going to review our 400 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,159 Speaker 3: client roster. Well, that gives them the opportunity then to 401 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 3: come up with basically standards that could be interpreted a 402 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,920 Speaker 3: number of different ways. For example, back in twenty fifteen, 403 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:16,719 Speaker 3: of course they came forward and said we will no 404 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 3: longer work on behalf of climate deniers. But because the 405 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 3: disinformation game doesn't really center on scientific climate denial anymore, 406 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:31,440 Speaker 3: it's moved and advanced to different messaging and more greenwashing 407 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,199 Speaker 3: and corporate propaganda, so technically they can work with anyone. 408 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 3: So these standards are a bit subjective. They can be 409 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 3: interpreted a number of different ways, and I believe that's 410 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 3: by design that gives them the opportunity to kind of 411 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 3: justify and say, well, we think Exon is being misrepresented 412 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 3: and they're taking the lead in carbon emissions activities without 413 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,439 Speaker 3: acknowledging the fact that one hundred percent of those activities 414 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 3: are on the supply side of Exxon's business. They're not 415 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 3: talking about using oil and gas output. They're not talking 416 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 3: about their core products when they say we're in line 417 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 3: with the Paris Agreement. They're talking about bringing fossil fuels 418 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:09,680 Speaker 3: to market more efficiently. But because we have no laws 419 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 3: in the United States to require fine print on advertising, 420 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 3: Edelman can say, well, they're doing a lot for climate 421 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 3: and the ads themselves past week fact checking criteria. So 422 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 3: really the whole emphasis, I think needs to be much 423 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:30,399 Speaker 3: more pointed on the nature of the messaging that they're producing. Really, 424 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 3: we need higher standards, and we need for those standards 425 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 3: to be enforced, and we need leadership within the space. 426 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 3: There have been no agency CEOs who have clung forward 427 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 3: to say, you know what, we agree climate disinformation is 428 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,639 Speaker 3: out of control, just like COVID disinformation. This is a crisis. 429 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 3: Greenwashing is out of control as well. This is a crisis. 430 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 3: We acknowledge a crisis, and we're going to do something 431 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 3: about it. Nowhere in Edelman's statement or in any other 432 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 3: agency statement, do they even ignore knowledge that crisis exists, 433 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:06,439 Speaker 3: and that to me is incriminating. And that is the 434 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 3: biggest hot button issue in my view, that we can 435 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 3: look at. And then the other aspect I would say 436 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 3: is that this whole crisis is also revealing a cultural 437 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 3: rift inside agencies. You know, agencies are in a tough 438 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,639 Speaker 3: spot right now in the sense that the innovation in 439 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 3: the marketing communications realm is really happening, not in the 440 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 3: big old school agencies. It's happening outside and independence and startups. 441 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 3: And so we have this new generation of young creative talent, 442 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:43,239 Speaker 3: whether they're into creator communities or n fts or you know, 443 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 3: specialized formats like film, really gravitating towards these indies and startups. 444 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 3: And so it is harder for big agencies like Wagner, 445 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 3: Egstrom and Eedleman to retain top creative talent. So and 446 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 3: then if you layer on top of that, the ethos 447 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 3: of this new generation of creative workers climate is critical 448 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 3: to them. It's a paramount consume. So when you have 449 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 3: these old guard management attempts to deflect from the deeper 450 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 3: issues to put forth you know, subjective standards that could 451 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 3: be interpreted a number of different ways, that double talk, 452 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 3: those containment strategies, those strategists are just not going to work. 453 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 3: They're going to just eroad trust more, cause more leaks, 454 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 3: and then really guarantee that the truth comes out some 455 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 3: other way, which then lengthens the media cycle. So it's 456 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 3: really funny. I was thinking, you know, yesterday, if the 457 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 3: PR and AD agency world were my client at this point, 458 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 3: I would be imploring them to come forward to address 459 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 3: the nature of the problem, at the very least address 460 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 3: that this material problem exists. If you don't do that, 461 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 3: and you try to sidestep this, you're going to lose 462 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 3: the trust not only of the media, the media cycle, 463 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 3: of the public, but your own employees as well. I 464 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 3: think this could be really much more damaging for them 465 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 3: than they're willing to acknowledge. 466 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 1: That's it for this time. Quick shout out to some 467 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 1: of our latest Patreon supporters. Patrick Santucci, Nick Freeman, Ruth Schaeffer, 468 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 1: Ak Shatt thea Young's, Tana Morgan, Katie, David Weiskough and 469 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 1: Will Golli. Hugh thank you so much for the support. 470 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 1: It means a lot and it really does pay for 471 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: a lot of things over here, including a new reporter 472 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: in Australia. Her name is Lyndall Rollins. You might have 473 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 1: heard her a couple episodes ago talking about the gas 474 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: fired recovery in Australia. We'll be hearing more from her 475 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 1: incoming episodes. We also have two more parts of season six, 476 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 1: our gas season, coming up in the next few months. 477 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: Our producer or Juliana Bradley, is helping to put those 478 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 1: together and doing a ton of reporting as well. Again 479 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 1: reporting that our Patreon supporters have helped to support, So 480 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 1: thanks for that, Thanks for listening. If you'd like to 481 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 1: support our work, you can do that at patreon dot 482 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 1: com slash Drilled. You get ad free episodes, early releases, 483 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 1: additional research and reporting, and the occasional sneak peek of 484 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: other shows we're working on. Another way you can support 485 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: us is by dropping us a reading or review wherever 486 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 1: you're listening to your podcasts that helps other people find us. 487 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 1: Thanks again and we'll see you next week.