1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much 3 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: for tuning in. This is part two to two of 4 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: Aaron Burr Burr Perfect America's Drunk Uncle. Big shout out 5 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: to our super producer research associate mister Max Williams. I'm ben, 6 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,199 Speaker 1: big shout out to you know. Oh, we got a 7 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 1: lot of weird stuff ahead, sad stuff. 8 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:52,519 Speaker 2: A lot of weird stuff, sad stuff, copiously little drinking. 9 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 2: But I think Matt Max points out somewhere in this 10 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 2: episode that everyone was just kind of drunk all the time. 11 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 3: And Burr, I think he just the the whole drunk 12 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 3: uncle thing. 13 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:04,680 Speaker 2: It's just more of like a kind of a crystallization 14 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:05,680 Speaker 2: of his personality. 15 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: And I'm still this will make sense later, folks. I'm 16 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: still looking at this old Delmonico's menu and I just 17 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 1: can't figure out some of the things on here. What 18 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 1: is cabinet putting. 19 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 2: It's just like putting that you leave in a cabinet 20 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 2: for a really long time and just see what happens. 21 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 3: Roll the dice. 22 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:26,839 Speaker 1: This battle for New York is bad, and on some level, Burr, 23 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: despite his own miscalculations and his own warts and imperfections 24 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: and ugly bumps of her career. He says, Hamilton is 25 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: one of the big reasons I lost this election. That's 26 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 1: probably not true, but what we're saying is there was 27 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: already a lot of baggage and these guys were carrying around. 28 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean the biography we're referring to refers 29 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 2: to Hamilton as despising Burr at this point. Yes, so 30 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 2: there's definitely like serious bad blood between these gentlemen that 31 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 2: is just starting to metastasized. 32 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 3: Can blood metastasize? Sure? 33 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:05,639 Speaker 1: For the purposes of description, you get it, you get blood. 34 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 1: Cancer is a real thing, frightening. We actually talked about that, 35 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:11,519 Speaker 1: I think on our Saxophone episode at some point. 36 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:13,360 Speaker 3: Ah, yes, the Sexyphone episode. Yes. 37 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 1: And so this big duel that is one of the 38 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 1: climactic moments of the Hamilton Musical. It happens because of 39 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 1: a kind of a slight thing, like a tiny misstep, 40 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:28,239 Speaker 1: where ordinarily you would just talk it out with your buddy, 41 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 1: but at this point their relationship is like cans of 42 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 1: open paint and oily rags in a non ventilated room 43 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: where someone keeps playing with a lighter, even though the 44 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: lighters weren't invented yet. You get it. So in eighteen 45 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:44,639 Speaker 1: o four, it's February, it's cold out. There's a guy, 46 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 1: doctor Charles D. Cooper, aka the Coops is what is 47 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: boys called them back in the day. 48 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 3: They're all hanging with mister Cooper. 49 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: So the Coops is at this dinner party and at 50 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,640 Speaker 1: this party, you know, which is just an opportunity for 51 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 1: network and talking for these guys, thank you for the beatbacks. 52 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 1: At this party, Hamilton's like, you know, who sucks Aaron Burr? 53 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: That guy's just like the worst. And then some people 54 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: turn around and he like stands up. I'm picturing it 55 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:17,359 Speaker 1: like nineteen like nineteen eighties comic, you know, and standing 56 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: up and he's like, first off, Burr. 57 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 3: What's the deal with the burg guy? Yeah. 58 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 2: An article on PBS The American Experience described him as 59 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 2: speaking eloquently and forcefully against Burr. Cooper later wrote a 60 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 2: letter to Philip I think it's Skylar, and I think 61 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 2: I might have said Shoy Schuler earlier. It's s c 62 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 2: h u y l e R. It's an unfair name, 63 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 2: and I think so too. It's like one of those, 64 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 2: it's like worst, It's like Hermione. You know, you read 65 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 2: it in the book, you think it in your head, 66 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 2: and then you say it out loud and you were 67 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 2: wrong the whole time. 68 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: Or New Madrid out in uh out in Missouri. 69 00:03:57,400 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 3: That's right, exactly. 70 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 2: So in this letter he made a reference to a 71 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 2: particularly quote despicable opinion that Hamilton had had shared about Burn. 72 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: He was like, I don't think he washes his butt. Yeah, 73 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 1: and everyone said, you know what, I can see it 74 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: seems legit. 75 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 2: And then, of course, you know, to add insult to injury, 76 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 2: the letter gets. 77 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 3: Published in the New York newspaper. How does that? That 78 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 3: doesn't seem right? That seems real dirty? 79 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: Well, this is also their main source of publicly shared 80 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 1: in This is their Twitter, the social. 81 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 2: Media, but like to publish a private was it with 82 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 2: his knowledge he or was it with the writer's knowledge? 83 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 1: This This letter is written by Cooper to Hamilton's father 84 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:51,480 Speaker 1: in law, so the word gets around. It's Cooper who's 85 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: telling tales outside of school, that's right. So Hamilton is 86 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 1: not asked about this being published. We've seen examples of 87 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: this too. I believe it was that remember the duel 88 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: with Lincoln where there were like some letters, there was 89 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:07,720 Speaker 1: a letter talking to went too far because that went 90 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: a little too far. So you're right, that was exactly 91 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:14,359 Speaker 1: the Twitter comparison is. This is completely appropriate. So in 92 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 1: June Burr sees this. Obviously he's humiliated once again. You know, 93 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: he's not happy, he's not happy about it. He writes 94 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: a letter to Hamilton demanding satisfaction, sir, or at the 95 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 1: very least, what's up to what gifts? Bro? WTF? And 96 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:35,600 Speaker 1: so they have this correspondence and you can see this 97 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:38,359 Speaker 1: in the musical where they go back and forth with 98 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:42,720 Speaker 1: letters signing things your obedient servant, because they were very 99 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:46,039 Speaker 1: polite even when they were saying terrible things to and 100 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:53,600 Speaker 1: about each other. Ultimately, yes, Bird demands that Hamilton denies 101 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: ever talking trash about him, which sounds kind of childish 102 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: for grown men, but he's says, that's the only thing 103 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: that will repair this. You got to go out in 104 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 1: public and say I'm not that bad, and you never 105 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: set that stuff at the party. And this is back 106 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: when you could just sort of erase history that way. 107 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 1: But Hamilton says, hey, I'm principal too, dog, I'm not 108 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: gonna comply with your demand that would sacrifice my own 109 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: political career. And yes, my eldest son, Philip died in 110 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 1: a duel just three years ago. I oppose dueling. 111 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 3: But I'm also you know, not gonna be a lill baby. 112 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:36,039 Speaker 1: But if you want to fart around, you're gonna find out. 113 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: I heard you don't wash your butt. 114 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:41,239 Speaker 3: That's that's what they say. I think perhaps. 115 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 1: Really classing it up for a special guest. 116 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 3: Alex, I know that's what we do, that's how we 117 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 3: do it. We're all class here. 118 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 2: That's wild man. I didn't realize that his son had 119 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 2: died in a duel. That was also like the idea 120 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 2: of dying in a duel. It just it seems like 121 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 2: so far removed from our modern day. I guess it's 122 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 2: you know, it's it's more of like a gentlemanly way 123 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 2: to die, but also a very unfortunate, preventable way to die. 124 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 3: Now it's just called getting shot. 125 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 1: Duels were it's I was thinking about this as we 126 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: were getting ready for this episode last week. You know, 127 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: duels back then at that time were kind of like 128 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:20,239 Speaker 1: how cannabis law is in the United States today. 129 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 2: We talked about this in the Lincoln episode to where 130 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 2: they had to find a spot that was like. 131 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 3: A gray area where chill spot. 132 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 2: It was decriminalized, you know, dueling, possession of a dueling 133 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 2: pistol was okay. 134 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, so duels are illegal at the time, both in 135 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 1: New York and in New Jersey. But as they say, 136 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: everything's legal in New Jersey. So the punishment for dueling, 137 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 1: for beefing up with pistols or swords, sabers or weapon 138 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 1: of choice, it's a lot more chill in New Jersey. 139 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 1: It's a lot less of a serious thing. So if 140 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 1: you kill someone in Jersey and you say, hey, we're 141 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 1: having a duel, I'll be like, I don't like it, 142 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: but hey, be on your way. 143 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 2: Indeed, so they did need to maintain an air of 144 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 2: secrecy around the right. It's because of the ify legal 145 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 2: you know waters and speaking of waters, in order to 146 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 2: keep that secret, they both left Manhattan separately from separate 147 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 2: docks before dawn. Pistols at dawn. Yeah, it's all coming 148 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 2: together now, five am. 149 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: If you win. What a great way to start the day. 150 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 3: I suppose. 151 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. 152 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 2: I mean your breath, that breath of fresh air is 153 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 2: like a breath of freedom. It's like you're you know, 154 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 2: the first day of the rest of your life. This 155 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 2: is July eleventh, by the way of eighteen oh four. 156 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 2: But this is also larger than life, we should say. 157 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 2: The place they're meeting is at Weehawken. There's a ledge 158 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 2: by the Hudson River. 159 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 3: Nice set piece, right, very John WICKI. 160 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 1: This has been a scenic, overlooked dueling brown for a while. 161 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 1: And this is a bit larger than life. It's very strange. 162 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 1: This was also the site where Hamilton's son died in 163 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:00,679 Speaker 1: a duel. 164 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 3: How about that. 165 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,679 Speaker 2: So both of these men, they're road by four men 166 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:07,439 Speaker 2: members of their entourage. You don't want to tire out 167 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 2: your own now, you just got to hold up that 168 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 2: pistol to New Jersey and they arrived. Burr actually arrived 169 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:15,439 Speaker 2: first at we Hawking around six an hour and a 170 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 2: half of rowan there's a lot of upper body workout. 171 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 2: Hamilton was fashionably late around thirty minutes later. And then 172 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 2: both men were accompanied by their which referred to often 173 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 2: as their seconds. So I guess second in command, their assistant, 174 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 2: their aide de camp. 175 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:34,439 Speaker 3: None of vallet. 176 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's more of like a you know, a what's 177 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 2: the word kind of like it's your wingman. It's a wingman, 178 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 2: but it's someone that would have probably done like like 179 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 2: like a like an aid. 180 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 3: A political aid perhaps, Oh yeah. 181 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:49,959 Speaker 1: Often sometimes a family member, right, that's right, a close 182 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: content on to be sure. And these these folks are 183 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 1: there to be witnesses, like how you have to have 184 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 1: a witness also signed for some contra legal documents. These 185 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: are two people who each have a horse in the race, right, 186 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 1: because they have chosen to second one of the duellists, 187 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,199 Speaker 1: And they are saying they're going to be the people 188 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: who say whether or not this was conducted according to 189 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: the rules. 190 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 3: Oh so, maybe I'm misunderstanding, because it does. 191 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 2: It does seem like these two men were kind of 192 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 2: political figures in their own right. Yes, is the second 193 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 2: just referring specifically to the parlance of dueling. This is 194 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 2: not necessarily like this was there, you know, someone that 195 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 2: was on their staff. These were just pit people that 196 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 2: they each chose to accompany them, you know, for the 197 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 2: purposes of fulfilling the uh I guess the rules of 198 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 2: the duel, the. 199 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 1: Du rules, Yeah, Hamilton. Hamilton's guy is Nathan aka Dirty 200 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 1: Nate Pendleton. He is a revolutionary war veteran and Georgia 201 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 1: District Court judge. By the way, I'm just making up 202 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: all these street names. It's crazy. You guys are letting 203 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 1: me get away. I don't know, dirty Nate. 204 00:10:58,840 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 3: Where are we to say? 205 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 2: Burr, on the other hand, was accompanied by William P. 206 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 2: Van Ness aka the Lockness Monster, a New York City 207 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 2: federal judge, adding to that Hamilton also had one doctor, 208 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 2: David Hassak, which is the only way to say that, 209 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:18,840 Speaker 2: who was a professor of medicine and botany at Columbia 210 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 2: Columbia College at the time, now of course, known as 211 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:22,679 Speaker 2: Columbia University. 212 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:27,440 Speaker 1: He also did hair and birthday parties, so yeah, light. 213 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 3: Of hand expert and balloon animals. 214 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: This guy is important because you want to have a 215 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 1: doctor on site. Sure, duels might not always be fatal. 216 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 1: They can be to the death, but they can also 217 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: be to first blood. They can be to the one 218 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 1: party yielding like I yield, or you know, I am 219 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 1: sorry I said that you smell weird. You know, I'm 220 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 1: sorry I said that your spouse looks like an otter. 221 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 4: That's where I will never inform other people that you 222 00:11:58,040 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 4: don't wash your butt. 223 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, nobody needs to know that could you. 224 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 2: You know, we see sometimes in situations of fights to 225 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 2: the death or duels as far back as you know, 226 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:12,839 Speaker 2: medieval times, you could put forth a champion, yes, you know, 227 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 2: on your behalf. 228 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:18,719 Speaker 1: It was also considered not necessarily the honorable things at 229 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 1: this point. Yeah, so what could happen in a duel 230 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 1: that reaches the point of actually firing or we're stabbing 231 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 1: at each other, is someone draws first blood and they're like, 232 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 1: do you yield? And then if they yield, then the 233 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 1: doctor comes by and it's like, hey, great job on. 234 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: Not everybody died immediately. Let's see if we can save 235 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 1: your life long enough for that hour and a half 236 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:41,199 Speaker 1: row back to. 237 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:42,320 Speaker 3: The city and now I'll go. 238 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: And this is the origin of Dave and Busters. They 239 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: basically randomized, to the best of their ability who gets 240 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:00,079 Speaker 1: to go on which side, you know, like in a 241 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:03,680 Speaker 1: like in a battle wrap, you flip the coid and 242 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:06,839 Speaker 1: you call heads or tails. So yeah, that's what they 243 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 1: do to pick the side of the ledge they're going 244 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 1: to each be stationed. 245 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 3: Pretty sure. I mentioned this as well in the Lincoln episode. 246 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 2: But I'm a big fan of the John Quick movies, 247 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 2: and in the last one of the most recent one mean, 248 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 2: it's obviously franchised city. They're probably gonna keep making them. 249 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 2: But there's a duel that takes place at the Sacrique 250 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 2: in the Marmonto district of Paris. 251 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 1: Yea. 252 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 2: And in order and before that, they have this whole 253 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 2: ritualized kind of like drawing of the like these tarot 254 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 2: cards to determine like what weapons they're gonna use all 255 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 2: of that. This is sort of a last grandiose version 256 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 2: of that, you know, like the but I like the 257 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:46,080 Speaker 2: pomp and circumstance of this dual stuff. 258 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:48,560 Speaker 1: Who doesn't love a little pomp, you know what I mean? 259 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: There are worse ways to go, which might sound a 260 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 1: little nihilistic it it does, it does, it's but it's 261 00:13:54,800 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 1: nihilistic optimism. So they've got this, They've got this whole tour. 262 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 1: We've got our stage set, we've got our cast here 263 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: on this secluded ledge, we've got our sides, and you know, 264 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 1: at this point, Hamilton does have a storied military and 265 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: political career. He's a heck of a prolific writer, and 266 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 1: he had been pretty dope in the Continental Army. He 267 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 1: was George Washington's most trusted boy during the war. But 268 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: he probably hadn't actually shot a firearm in a minute 269 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 1: since the revolution. And that's not like riding a bike. 270 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 2: I was gonna say, But isn't it like riding a bike? 271 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 2: You say, no, okay, yeah, it does require muscle memory 272 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 2: and like a strength event, you know, just to like 273 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 2: you know, take the kickback and all of that. 274 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: Well, and you want to continually practice, that's right, right, 275 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: to keep keep your dead eye status. 276 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 3: The skills can can achrophy over time. 277 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 1: And Burr. We don't know whether Burr had how active 278 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: he had been with firearm maintenance and practice after the 279 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: but there was some evidence that he had been practicing 280 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 1: with pistols with firearms at his crib out in Richmond 281 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: Hill for a while, because as soon as it seems 282 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: as though as soon as they agreed to the duel, 283 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: Burr was going out on a non infrequent basis and 284 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: just you know, doing the doing in the range, doing 285 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: the equivalent of knocking over cans. 286 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 3: That's right. 287 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 2: So I mean, I'm sure we're gonna get into this, Ben. Yeah, 288 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 2: I don't really know. But like if you kill somebody 289 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 2: in a duel, are you then a murderer? 290 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: It depends, Okay, it depends on the okay, well in 291 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: the eyes of God. Also, the next chapter in the story, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, 292 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: we know and I know it is actually you know what, 293 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: I bet Alex does too. It Hamilton doesn't get to 294 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 1: in the weeds on this, but we're gonna give you 295 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: the actual We're gonna give you the actual story. Oh, 296 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 1: the Hamilton the musical. 297 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 2: Oh sorry, I thought, but Hamilton himself, as I didn't 298 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 2: get too into the weeds on practice. 299 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 1: Marksman absolutely not, and he needed spectacles. So Hi're standing there, 300 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: They're facing each other because they had no conflict resolution skills. 301 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: Hamilton's aiming, and he's like, psych, can I take a 302 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: second and put on my glasses? Dog? And then and 303 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 1: then uh, Burr is like, I don't care man, I 304 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: hate you. Do whatever you want. And then Hamilton apparently 305 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 1: Burr didn't know this. And there's a huge part of 306 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 1: the Hamilton Musical, So spoilers, folks, three to one spoiler alert. 307 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: Hamilton has already told his close friends, including his second 308 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 1: and he's already written about this in letters. He says, look, 309 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 1: I'm gonna throw away my shot. That's why it's that's 310 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: why there's such a big deal about. In the beginning 311 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: of the musical, he says, I'm gonna shoot wide of Burr. 312 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: I think duals suck. I think they're cruel. 313 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, but I gotta say, and it's been batting. 314 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 2: Around in my head the whole time. Yeah, why did 315 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 2: he agree to it? It seems like such a boneheaded move, 316 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 2: such a roll of the dice for someone who's such 317 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:08,919 Speaker 2: a you know, calculated political thinker, like you know, it 318 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:15,200 Speaker 2: is an antiquated kind of problem conflict resolution scenario, and 319 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:18,639 Speaker 2: it is of course pretty much illegal, despite them finding 320 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:22,679 Speaker 2: these little loopholes. I would just think that, you know, 321 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:26,199 Speaker 2: Hamilton was on top. Burr was kind of like this 322 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 2: little pisshand at this point, who everyone was kind of 323 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 2: just ready to be rid of. Why would Hamilton put 324 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 2: himself in this situation? 325 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 1: It was wild man, it was before Twitter. 326 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 2: I guess it's just so yeah, he's already decided he's 327 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 2: going to do this. 328 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,360 Speaker 3: He does the thing like you said, puts away his spectacles. 329 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:45,879 Speaker 2: And again there is also this is like a you know, 330 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 2: who shot Hans shot first, right, A lot of debate 331 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:52,879 Speaker 2: as to who shot first, But Hamilton did miss. Burr, 332 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:57,400 Speaker 2: on the other hand, did not. He hit him in 333 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 2: the abdomen right above his hip. How old are these 334 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:06,439 Speaker 2: fellows at this point? They are both sixteen? But really, 335 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:09,120 Speaker 2: but really, how old are they at this point? They 336 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:10,919 Speaker 2: are both he got me? 337 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 3: What are they max? 338 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:19,119 Speaker 1: They're fourteen? No, they're they're about They're pretty close in age. Actually, Hamilton, 339 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: I think at this point is I want to say 340 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:24,400 Speaker 1: he's almost fifty. 341 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 2: He's like forty seven. Forty seven is what the interwebs say. 342 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 3: So it does make sense. 343 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 1: Not quite fifties. 344 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, lyrically young and spry. 345 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 2: But still even if that, you know how medicine was 346 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:38,440 Speaker 2: and those who didn't live as long you get hit 347 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:41,199 Speaker 2: in the hit man, that's that's not good, even if 348 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 2: you're not like super old. 349 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't know. To be fair, the musical is 350 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 1: supposed to lionize our buddy Hamilton, so they don't mention 351 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 1: in the musical that it's not clear if he actually 352 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: missed on purpose to just prove his point like a 353 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 1: little suck boom, I'm class, or if he was totally 354 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 1: gonna kill Burr. Got shot first and that's that impact. 355 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 2: Through his shot for it, So I say hip, it 356 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 2: was more above the hip, but it did fracture a rib, 357 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:16,919 Speaker 2: and it's absolutely ripped through his diaphragm, liver and then 358 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 2: lodged in his spine. I mean, they can't do spinal surgery, 359 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,119 Speaker 2: you know, one hundred percent with one hundred percent precision, 360 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 2: now right, you know this is an absolute death blow. 361 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,400 Speaker 1: And he was realistic. He pretty much said, look, I'm 362 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 1: not gonna make it. I'm a dead man walking. So 363 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 1: they roll him back to Manhattan. He survives, He survives, 364 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 1: the first day. He passes away after thirty one hours 365 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 1: of being shot. He is lucky enough to be surrounded 366 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 1: by his family, which doesn't happen for everybody then or now. 367 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 1: And he passes away on July twelfth, eighteen oh four. 368 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:04,440 Speaker 1: There's this huge outpouring of grief. His wife, Eliza is inconsolable, 369 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: and they have been through a lot, including infidelity, political struggles. 370 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:16,119 Speaker 1: They lost the child just three years earlier. And Burr 371 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: is a cautionary tale about dueling. Oh yeah, the legal 372 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 1: department wants just to tell you, don't duel. 373 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, don't duel. Well, you know it was 374 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:27,160 Speaker 3: his son died in a duel, right. 375 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 1: Yes, three years before. 376 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 2: I guess that's my point though, It's like knowing that, 377 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:33,400 Speaker 2: why would he not only agree to it. You think 378 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 2: he could have said no on the grounds of humanitarian reasons, 379 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 2: like my lost a son, this is a barbaric practice. Instead, 380 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 2: it seems like he did it to try to make 381 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 2: a point, but the other guy didn't get the memo 382 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 2: and he got blasted. 383 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 1: Literally. 384 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,360 Speaker 2: It just seems really shortsighted and dumb. But of course 385 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 2: Hamilton emerges from this for all the reasons that you 386 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:57,120 Speaker 2: said as this martyr. You know, lionis is the word 387 00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 2: you used. I think that's what the They wrote a 388 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,639 Speaker 2: damn musical, I mean many years later. But the story, 389 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 2: you know, persevered, and you know, while Burr thought he 390 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 2: was going to come off looking like the big big 391 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 2: man on campus. 392 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 3: Here, Oh he's the heel. He's cancelled. 393 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: He's the quizz basically, and he hoped to Burr had said, Okay, 394 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: I am going to show that I am upstanding, I 395 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:24,400 Speaker 1: am gambling again, and I duel Hamilton honorably. I will 396 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:28,920 Speaker 1: restore my reputation. My political career shall be resurrected. He 397 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 1: was wrong on both counts. He was super duper wrong. 398 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 1: The authorities issue these arrest warrants for Burr, and everybody 399 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 1: in New York is saying this guy is a murderer, 400 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: and they're like, well, you know, we were all soldiers 401 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 1: at some point we did some killer. He's like, no, 402 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,959 Speaker 1: but he's one of the bad murderers, and so Burr 403 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,640 Speaker 1: has to high tail it to Philadelphia where he invents 404 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:52,359 Speaker 1: cream cheese. 405 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 3: Man, your misinformation in this episode is admirable. We're just 406 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 3: weaving it in, you're dropping it in. I love it. Yeah, 407 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:01,159 Speaker 3: he was. 408 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 2: It's true that he did have to go on the lamb. 409 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 2: He did not invent cream cheese, but he did have 410 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 2: to go to Philly. Yeah, it's true. And cream cheese 411 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 2: is objectively good. 412 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,199 Speaker 1: It is great. Like it. I like it as an ingredient. 413 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 2: It's wonderful as an ingredient. But as you get older, 414 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,120 Speaker 2: you know what you start to favor just the plane plane, 415 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 2: the plain bagel playing cream cheese a bit. I like 416 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 2: a plain cream cheese on everything bagel. I like that too. 417 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:29,160 Speaker 2: I extremes, yeah, nothing and everything. When we were quite 418 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 2: philosophical with our bagels. Also, I tried some everything bagel 419 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:35,160 Speaker 2: flavored potato chips. 420 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, excellent. Really well, I'll tell you this. 421 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 1: Let me before. 422 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 2: There is a Trader Joe's Everything Bagel seasoning that you 423 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 2: can that is good? 424 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 1: Okay, but I bought the pre made everything bagel chips 425 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: to Trader Joe's. They insist upon themselves. 426 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 3: Okay, I can see that, you know. 427 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: I bet they'd be good with a smoked salmon dip. Okay, yeah, sure, okay, 428 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:59,199 Speaker 1: So so we have uh there we go, there we go. 429 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: I've got a like a fourteen pound can of chickpeas 430 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: I bought during the pandemic. Did I tell you about this? 431 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: They never go bad. I thought there was a regular 432 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 1: size can when I ordered them. But yeah, I have 433 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 1: prepper chickpeas. So I need to make some hummus. All right, 434 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 1: I'll bring some in for the class please. So anyway, 435 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:19,360 Speaker 1: Aaron Burr is now a pariah, but he does not die. 436 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,680 Speaker 1: He doesn't pass away. These we said what their late forties. 437 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: He doesn't pass away until he's like eighty years old. 438 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 1: So his life is just barely halfway through. 439 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's wild. 440 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 1: And his other adventures that his other adventures that the 441 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:41,199 Speaker 1: Hamilton Musical won't tell you are pretty nuts. As our 442 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:44,639 Speaker 1: research associate for this episode, mister Max Williams puts. 443 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 2: It, didn't he light off for the territories? Kind of 444 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,160 Speaker 2: did he let out for the territories? I love that phrase. 445 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:53,440 Speaker 2: He leaves the west. He leaves for the West ignomoniously 446 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 2: in eighteen oh five, and historians still aren't sure why 447 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 2: he was headed that way. People who didn't like him said, 448 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 2: we all know this snaky eel of a man, snake anony. 449 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 1: He wants to he wants to steal, yeah, right, he 450 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 1: wants to steal the Louisiana territory parts of it, along 451 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 1: with Spanish lands. We all know that Burr is a jerk. 452 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:26,160 Speaker 1: He's going to try to make his own country. And 453 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 1: because this guy's reputation was so bad, people would hear 454 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: that and they would go, yeah, I don't you know, 455 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 1: I don't have proof, but that guy is kind of a. 456 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 2: I know, he seems he seems really sketch, and he 457 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 2: you know, he does make contact with some British officials, 458 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 2: ministers from Spain, and even some revolutionary fighters you know, 459 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,159 Speaker 2: from from Mexico. But a lot of these folks are 460 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 2: actually accused of colluding with him to for this this 461 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 2: imagined or real purpose, the ide of starting his own nation. 462 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 1: Or starting or launching a coup. And that sounds crazy 463 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: because if you. 464 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 2: Have ever against Washington against yeah, if you have ever 465 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 2: been to Washington, d C. 466 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: Caveat not talking about January sixth, but on any other 467 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 1: day of the year, if you've been to Washington, d C. 468 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: You know, security is a little tighty. You're right. So 469 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 1: it might sound strange, super villainy, uh, the stuff of 470 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 1: legend or fiction to talk about a coup in Washington, 471 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 1: d C. Now, But the United States was much younger, 472 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 1: much less secure. Oh yeah, so this is a viable, actionable. 473 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 2: Threat, decent enough militia at your back, you know, could 474 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:45,120 Speaker 2: be done, could be. 475 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 1: Done, And a lot of coups happened with former military officers. 476 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 2: And you know this people. People were aware at the 477 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 2: very least of some of these meetings that he was taking, 478 00:25:55,920 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 2: and the district attorney for Kentucky actually tattled on him 479 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 2: to Jefferson. So James Wilkinson, who was one of Burr's 480 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 2: co conspirators in this act activity, I guess, produced a 481 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 2: letter that accused Burr of the worst accusation that any 482 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 2: patriots you know, could be accused of treason, and Jefferson 483 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 2: that immediately orders his former VP to be taken in arrested. 484 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. 485 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:27,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, is it dead or alive. It's got to be alive. 486 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:28,879 Speaker 2: They want him alive. 487 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 1: It's yeah, it's it's arrested so that he can stand trial. 488 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: That's the idea. 489 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,880 Speaker 2: But this is not necessarily stand trial for the murder 490 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 2: of Hamilton. 491 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 3: This is for treason, This is for colluding with these. 492 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 1: He never actually got tried for Hamilton's because that. 493 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 3: Was New York that wanted to try for Hamilton. 494 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,679 Speaker 4: Yeah, this is like the federal government is coming out. 495 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,639 Speaker 2: But is it true though? Was he actually doing this stuff? 496 00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 2: It seems like a little bit trumped up. 497 00:26:58,600 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 3: I mean, we don't know. 498 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: We don't know. Still remains unclear. There's not a primary 499 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 1: source at this point from my research, there's not a 500 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 1: primary source at this point where you have like a 501 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:15,679 Speaker 1: correspondence from a British official or Free to do It, 502 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: the Spanish minister saying, you know, like poor Cepuesto. 503 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,159 Speaker 3: Or whatever, he was trying to do something. We just 504 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 3: don't there's just not enough proof to know exactly what 505 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 3: he was doing. And it was also very unsuccessful. It 506 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 3: could well have been just trying to make investments. 507 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 2: You know, in another part of the country, or set 508 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 2: up a new life for himself not having to come. 509 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 3: Back to Ye. 510 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:38,639 Speaker 1: It was also a little finger character those you know. 511 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: So he's like chaos, he's a letter and all that well. 512 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:42,880 Speaker 2: And I want to do a little post mortem about 513 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 2: him and his character at the end here. But he 514 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 2: is put on trial, yes, and he is acquitted. A 515 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,399 Speaker 2: Supreme Court Chief Justice John Marshall acquitted him, saying there 516 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 2: was a lack of evidence to fully you know, bring 517 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 2: him up on these charges, but that he had in 518 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,680 Speaker 2: some form of fashion committee speak, but that he didn't 519 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,640 Speaker 2: actually take any action against the US government. 520 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 3: So usually you think, well, actually that's not the case. 521 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 2: Usually sometimes just being tried is enough to torpedo your 522 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 2: reputation and your career, unless you're a certain former president, 523 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,160 Speaker 2: which seems to not really take. 524 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll see how it goes. But absolutely there are 525 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 1: some things that just going to trial for them, even 526 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:27,399 Speaker 1: if you are acquitted, it's gonna it's gonna ruin your life, 527 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,680 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Yeah, Like, oh, I went 528 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:36,120 Speaker 1: to trial for driving puffins extinct. I didn't do I mean, 529 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 1: I didn't get convicted. 530 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 2: You're probably not going to be elected the head of 531 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 2: the WWF or WWE World Wildlife Federation. Yeah yeah, wait 532 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 2: there's the other there or two, the one with the 533 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 2: pandam yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. 534 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 1: Oh I'm thinking world What am I thinking of? Well, 535 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: the w w Yeah, you're right, you're right, World Wildlife Foundation. 536 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 1: There's another thing too. But but you know, the question 537 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 1: will always be in this weird comparison. You'll say, I 538 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: wasn't convicted of killing all the puffins, and in any 539 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 1: time you're not in the room, people will go just 540 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 1: between us, how many how many puffins did he kill? 541 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 2: Though? 542 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 3: Exactly like he just got kicked. 543 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 1: Where there's smoke, there's fire, right right, right right, And 544 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 1: so this is a death, This is a political death 545 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 1: before a physical death for. 546 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 2: Aaron Burr, he's already been absolutely dragged through the mud. 547 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 2: He was unpopular before the duel even took place. Now 548 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 2: he's been accused herber stands, I mean guilty of whether 549 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 2: it's a murder or not, killing a very popular political 550 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 2: figure and a former close friend, which means that this 551 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 2: guy is not trustworthy. 552 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 1: That's right. Look how he treats his friends. He also 553 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: he goes around the world, around Europe, attempting to hang 554 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: his shingle. Attempting to recover some modicum of success is 555 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 1: how you will see it put often in airon biographies. 556 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: He leaves the US eighteen oh eight, the country that 557 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: he helped create, and he travels to England. Ooh his 558 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 1: at this time, if you're American, and he says, maybe 559 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 1: the English will support me, bankroll a Mexican revolution. British 560 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 1: officials say, oh, you know, what'd be great, get out, 561 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 1: and so he flees. Not interested, right, he flees to France. 562 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 1: He's like Napoleon, bro it's me the a bomb, we 563 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 1: do big stuff. And Napoleon goes. 564 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 2: No, Yeah, he's a toxic person at this point. Nobody 565 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 2: wants to touch him, nobody wants to even be associated 566 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 2: with him. 567 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 3: He is basically exiled. I mean, he's an untouchable, right. 568 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 1: And he's broke, so he can't go back to the 569 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 1: United States. He has to wait around in France for 570 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 1: a while. And it's not till eighteen eleven of friendship 571 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 1: is on the way back to the United States and 572 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 1: he's able basically to beggar rived exactly. 573 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 2: I mean, you know that probably didn't come easy either, 574 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 2: you know, nobody even wanted him as a passenger on 575 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 2: their freighter. So back home he changes his name sure 576 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 2: to Edwards, like Timothy Edwards. 577 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly all that. 578 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 2: In eighteen thirty three, he does marry an Eliza, which 579 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 2: it wasn't Eliza Hamilton's wife. Yeah, but weird unrelated, but 580 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 2: just she is wealthy, she is a socialite. 581 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 1: Their marriage doesn't last long because he burns through her 582 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 1: entire state. He waste all her money, He's broke again. 583 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 1: He dies in debt on September fourteenth, eighteen thirty six, 584 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: the same day his wife's divorce paperwork comes through. 585 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 2: You know, I felt like, and I've said it a 586 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 2: couple of times that, like leading up to the duel 587 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 2: and all of that, he didn't seem like just absolute 588 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 2: villain material, you know. I mean everybody in politics has 589 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 2: their double dealings and slimy. 590 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 1: Behavior, played the saxophone, that's true. Barack Obama had a 591 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 1: tan suit one time. 592 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 2: I just mean, nobody, and especially in this area era, 593 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 2: I was beyond reproach, you know, like people were doing 594 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 2: backstabby kind of stuff all the time constantly. This dude 595 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 2: just sort of got that label sort of like it's 596 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 2: just absolutely emblazoned on his reputation. 597 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 3: But he wasn't the only one. But then this last chapter. 598 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 2: Of his life, the idea of like being a bit 599 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 2: of a he sort of became the villain that everyone 600 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 2: said he was the whole time. 601 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 1: He was a broken man. Yeah, and it's not a 602 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 1: fate that you want to wish on people. It's clearly possible. 603 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 1: I mean, history hinges on such tiny things. It's clearly 604 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: possible that had just a few other variables changed, he 605 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 1: would have been the border or he would have maybe 606 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 1: have led a more successful political career. 607 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 4: I mean, but to jump in here, and I think 608 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 4: this is an important thing. Election of eighteen hundred, I mean, 609 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 4: Hamilton basically said, I hate Thomas Jefferson. This guy's awful, 610 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 4: this guy's terrible. You need to vote for him instead 611 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:20,479 Speaker 4: of Aaron Burr. Yes, I think there's I don't know 612 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 4: about Burr. I think just the awful things he did 613 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 4: didn't become well known until he did enough awful things. 614 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, but then also you could I mean, when 615 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 1: you hold an objective mirror of retrospect up to the 616 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 1: founding dudes, you're gonna be hard pressed to find a 617 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 1: paragon of nobility amid any of them. 618 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:45,480 Speaker 2: I think that's what I was getting at, And I'm 619 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 2: not getting this guy a pass. He obviously sucked, but 620 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,040 Speaker 2: oh yeah, he's not good, not a good dude. But 621 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,760 Speaker 2: like a lot of these other drunk yeah, well, we 622 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 2: never really talked about him getting drunk. Oh well, everybody 623 00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 2: was drunk, okay at that point, and he. 624 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 3: Was very drunk when I think for a lot of 625 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:00,920 Speaker 3: these things. 626 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, he was kind of doing a Giuliani. Okay. Now, 627 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,879 Speaker 1: guys like I just it just it's heartbreaking though, because 628 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:14,800 Speaker 1: you don't you don't want to think about someone dying 629 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:19,360 Speaker 1: or even having to live in such circumstances. And he also, 630 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 1: while he himself was seen as perhaps a traitor to 631 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:27,800 Speaker 1: his friends in his political colleagues, he again toward the 632 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 1: end of his life he was suspected of being treason is, 633 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:34,760 Speaker 1: but he was never proven to be a trader. He 634 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 1: just certainly hung out with people who later became traders. 635 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 1: And that's where we sew it up. What about our 636 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:45,760 Speaker 1: buddy James Wilkinson, co conspirator, the guy that also we willie. 637 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,680 Speaker 2: He then like backstabbed Burr right by producing that letter 638 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 2: that led to his trial for treason. He also had 639 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 2: a bit of a circuitous path to trade her drum. 640 00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:02,720 Speaker 2: He won election and then used to leave after his term. 641 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:06,800 Speaker 2: There's a great quote from an article from Team Mighty 642 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 2: over at We Are the Mighty dot com about Wilkinson 643 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:12,440 Speaker 2: in this situation. It says, quote, Wilkinson was one of 644 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,920 Speaker 2: the most trusted soldiers in the US Army history, serving 645 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 2: in both the Revolutionary War and the War of eighteen twelve. 646 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:19,919 Speaker 2: He took on the role of governor of the newly 647 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 2: acquired Louisiana Territory and became one of the army's most 648 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 2: senior officers. There were many problems with Wilkinson's service, but 649 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,680 Speaker 2: the foremost among them was that he had been spying 650 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 2: for the Spanish most of the time. 651 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 1: Whoops, not all of the time, but most of the time. 652 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 2: So that's treason too, yes, talking about the pot calling 653 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:40,440 Speaker 2: the kettle black. 654 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 3: When he did again turn Burr in for a treason. 655 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 1: And then he almost gets caught up in this a 656 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,759 Speaker 1: bomb nonsense. Aaron Burr's treeson trial. And so here's what 657 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 1: Wilkinson does when he finds out that he might be 658 00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:00,719 Speaker 1: revealed as a treasonist. Dude, a rude due himself, as 659 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 1: our friends of ridiculous crime would say, Wilkinson, we Willie 660 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 1: places the entirety of New Orleans under martial law and 661 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:13,360 Speaker 1: locks up anyone who might be able to prove his involvement. 662 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,359 Speaker 1: He never gets caught during his life. He does get 663 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:20,880 Speaker 1: away clean. But his papers, his correspondencies, are discovered in 664 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:25,759 Speaker 1: eighteen fifty four, and the stuff that's in them led 665 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 1: Theodore Roosevelt to say, in an old roy history, there's 666 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:31,840 Speaker 1: no more despicable capacter. 667 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 3: Yeah what what did he say? 668 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:36,120 Speaker 1: We don't know what does well? 669 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 2: But again, I mean putting a whole city under martial 670 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 2: law just a savior butt, But that's the behavior of 671 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 2: a very powerful and desperate man. We mentioned Benedict Arnold, 672 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:50,879 Speaker 2: which is I don't think eggs Benedict are named after 673 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 2: Benedict Arnold's I would like to think not that would 674 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 2: really turn me on eggs Benedict, because I like ex Benedict. 675 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:02,799 Speaker 1: And BENEDICTO. Yeah, if you've seen things like turn right. 676 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 1: He is most famous for, you know, stepping on the 677 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 1: wrong side of the US government. He was raised in 678 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,799 Speaker 1: a pretty good family in Norwich, Connecticut. He was originally 679 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,959 Speaker 1: going to be a pharmacy guy. He apprenticed with an apothecary. 680 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,440 Speaker 1: He joined the militia During the French and Indian War, 681 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,960 Speaker 1: he became a successful private trader. The Revolutionary War breaks out, 682 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:32,000 Speaker 1: he joins a continental army and during the war. In 683 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:35,280 Speaker 1: his time as a military dude, he seems brave. He's skilled, 684 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,920 Speaker 1: He's a good leader. He does. He's got a couple 685 00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 1: of real hero moments. He helps capture Fort Ticonderoga. In 686 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 1: seventy five, he takes part in an unsuccessful attack on Quebec, 687 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 1: the British part of it. 688 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:53,160 Speaker 2: Much like our boy aarn burd Wait. Isn't that where 689 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:54,799 Speaker 2: they Maybe that's whe they met each other? Was during 690 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,759 Speaker 2: that that attack on Quebec the invasion member of the 691 00:37:57,800 --> 00:37:59,920 Speaker 2: unsuccessful invasion of Canada. 692 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:04,920 Speaker 1: This this invasion gives uh Benedict Arnold the promotion he's 693 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:06,960 Speaker 1: aiming for too. He becomes a brigadier general. 694 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:10,680 Speaker 2: Interesting, I mean, but you know it also benefited benefited burr. 695 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:13,719 Speaker 2: By the way, I just googled, is eggs Benedict named 696 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,239 Speaker 2: after Benedict Arnold? It is not, but the second most 697 00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 2: popular googles was is egg Benedict named after Benedict cumberbatche 698 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:24,960 Speaker 2: Oh wow, who is like, you know, an actor. 699 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,640 Speaker 1: Reading this nourll of food history. I remember reading this, 700 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,239 Speaker 1: but I can't. I can't remember how it got the 701 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:33,920 Speaker 1: name was it? 702 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:37,239 Speaker 2: Was it named for place, it was a person. It 703 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:42,239 Speaker 2: does appear that it was. Let's see, uh, miss Legrand 704 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:46,200 Speaker 2: Benedict grew bored of the menu at the particular place 705 00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:48,799 Speaker 2: and complained about its lack of variety and requested something 706 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 2: new to be made. Chef Ranhoffer spontaneously created the now 707 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,799 Speaker 2: famous Eggs Benedict dish and named it after her. And 708 00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,719 Speaker 2: this would have been in uh, let's see the Del 709 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:01,560 Speaker 2: mom Ah like state. 710 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:05,120 Speaker 1: Delmonico's think, yeah, because that was the origin point for 711 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:07,520 Speaker 1: so many amazing recipes. 712 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:08,320 Speaker 3: That's right. Eighteen. 713 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 1: You can look at if you ever want to have fun, folks, 714 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:14,640 Speaker 1: you can look at the old Delmonico menu. You will 715 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:16,960 Speaker 1: be shocked by the prices and there, I say, you 716 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,799 Speaker 1: might be shocked by some of the variety. They've got 717 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:24,360 Speaker 1: some weird stuff on roast beast. Yeah. Our buddy Benny 718 00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,799 Speaker 1: does some other cool stuff. During the war, he gets 719 00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:33,239 Speaker 1: the support of George Washington. He distinguishes himself in multiple campaigns, 720 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:37,840 Speaker 1: but it's the military. People are also gunning for the 721 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:42,040 Speaker 1: same promotion you want. Arnold has enemies within the military, 722 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:47,400 Speaker 1: and he's mad. He's spitting mad. In seventeen seventy seven, 723 00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:51,640 Speaker 1: a group of lower ranking dudes get promoted ahead of him. 724 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,320 Speaker 1: They got a leap frog. He's thinking, I'm supposed to 725 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,880 Speaker 1: be next in line. He marries a second time. He's 726 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:04,120 Speaker 1: living it up in Philly, cream cheese every day, everything, bagel. 727 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:08,000 Speaker 1: He racks up a lot of debt, and he's got 728 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:12,359 Speaker 1: these money problems, and he's got this personal resentment that 729 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:14,520 Speaker 1: he was not promoted, and he's like, I did my 730 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,040 Speaker 1: level best, you know, why are these guys getting favors 731 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:17,600 Speaker 1: over me? 732 00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:20,120 Speaker 3: And that's when he turns to the dark time. 733 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:24,400 Speaker 1: That's when he turns to the Sith Lord stuff. That 734 00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:30,520 Speaker 1: probably was the deciding factor, the money problems and the resentment, 735 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:34,000 Speaker 1: and no one finds out for a second. Seventeen eighty, 736 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:39,040 Speaker 1: Arnold takes over West Point, and this is before it's 737 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:40,840 Speaker 1: the home of the US Military Academy. 738 00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:44,040 Speaker 3: It's just it's a base. Yeah, yeah for it exactly. 739 00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,640 Speaker 2: He contacts Sir Henry Clinton, the head of the British Forces, 740 00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:50,920 Speaker 2: and just says Hey, I got an idea. How about 741 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,439 Speaker 2: I just give you the fort and my men? 742 00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:57,920 Speaker 1: And the guy goes what. 743 00:40:58,239 --> 00:40:59,040 Speaker 3: Presumably for. 744 00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:04,359 Speaker 2: What's the quid pro quote here, Ben, it's not really 745 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:05,360 Speaker 2: stated clearly. 746 00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:10,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. He meets with a British major, John Andre on 747 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,640 Speaker 1: September twenty one of that same year, seventeen eighty, and 748 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:17,640 Speaker 1: they crack a deal and he says, you, dirty American, 749 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:20,719 Speaker 1: I will give you a large sum of money. Okay, 750 00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,400 Speaker 1: got it, and I would also promote you in the 751 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:26,080 Speaker 1: British Army. So you could have that promotion. 752 00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:28,560 Speaker 2: He'll never be accepted. What is he going to do 753 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 2: a fake British accent? They'll see right through. 754 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:34,560 Speaker 1: It, they might. But well, actually they probably sounded very 755 00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:35,359 Speaker 1: similar to these guys. 756 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:37,279 Speaker 3: Oh that's a good point at that time. Yeah, you're earlier. 757 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:38,160 Speaker 3: That's a really good point. 758 00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,480 Speaker 1: But he would definitely be marked as a trader. The 759 00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:45,239 Speaker 1: thing about rats is that would no one trust them. Yeah, 760 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:47,360 Speaker 1: so he was still going to get a lot of money, 761 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:52,040 Speaker 1: solve his money problems, get promoted to the British Army ostensibly. However, 762 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:55,200 Speaker 1: he gets found out and his buddy, the point of 763 00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:58,879 Speaker 1: contact who can make this treason possible and worth it, 764 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:05,719 Speaker 1: Andrey gets captured, Andre is murdered. Ben addict Arnold flees 765 00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,319 Speaker 1: to the enemy side. Help me, help me, help me. 766 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,880 Speaker 3: Remember we had a thing, we had a deal. We're buddies. 767 00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:16,400 Speaker 1: Wait for me. And then they give him some British 768 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,839 Speaker 1: troops and he commands them in Virginia in Connecticut. That's 769 00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:21,960 Speaker 1: got to be a trip. If you're on the American 770 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,239 Speaker 1: side of it, you're like, hang on a second, Yeah, 771 00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:29,640 Speaker 1: I know that asshole. Yeah, that's the moment they have. 772 00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:31,400 Speaker 1: And eventually he survives. 773 00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:34,719 Speaker 2: He does move to England, but he never gets all 774 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:38,040 Speaker 2: of the accolades and you know, wealth and riches that 775 00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:41,480 Speaker 2: were promised him by the British. Once again, the story 776 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:45,040 Speaker 2: of a former great American hero and patriot who died 777 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:49,719 Speaker 2: like maybe not a pauper, but you know, definitely not 778 00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:55,400 Speaker 2: with reverence and respect and admiration, mainly in you know, 779 00:42:55,680 --> 00:43:01,040 Speaker 2: obscurity on June fourteenth, eighteen oh one. 780 00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:04,640 Speaker 1: And lest we had done a down. Note. The Delmonico 781 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:08,600 Speaker 1: Restaurant in New York is also responsible for baked Alaska 782 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:12,800 Speaker 1: and Lobster Newburgh. I don't know, lobster Newburg got a 783 00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:15,719 Speaker 1: very distinct smell. I've cooked at home. It's it's kind 784 00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:18,080 Speaker 1: of a pain because you have to use brandy in 785 00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:18,839 Speaker 1: the recipe. 786 00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:21,520 Speaker 2: I like brandy and like a lobster bisk you know again, 787 00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:23,680 Speaker 2: like a sherry or sherry. 788 00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:26,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess no, I mean you can tell. I 789 00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:29,239 Speaker 1: think we don't. I don't. I don't think either of 790 00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:33,920 Speaker 1: us really cook a ton with alcohol outside of like 791 00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:36,440 Speaker 1: some wine and like a beef shoe or something. 792 00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:38,160 Speaker 3: Or like a little white wine and like a pasta 793 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:39,200 Speaker 3: of some kind of Oh that's what. 794 00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:41,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I like. I like seafood pasta kind of thing. 795 00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,719 Speaker 2: Definitely, yes, exactly Like I like doing shrimp and rice too, 796 00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:48,160 Speaker 2: with dice roasted red peppers, and then you put a 797 00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:50,440 Speaker 2: little I actually like to cook the rice with half 798 00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:53,600 Speaker 2: wine and half chicken broth instead of water. 799 00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:56,880 Speaker 1: I use chicken broth just but I've never put wine in. 800 00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:59,200 Speaker 2: It's really nice. It's also what you would do for 801 00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:02,160 Speaker 2: like a pay. I guess that's what we got. We've 802 00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:05,000 Speaker 2: got a story of one of America's biggest traders and 803 00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:08,719 Speaker 2: a bunch of other little side players and Hamilton and 804 00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:09,680 Speaker 2: all of the things. 805 00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:13,040 Speaker 1: And what a wild ride. 806 00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:13,480 Speaker 3: We know. 807 00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:16,120 Speaker 1: We made this a two part episode, folks. That's because 808 00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:19,239 Speaker 1: there's so much stuff. We wanted to preemptive. Yeah, preemptive 809 00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:23,400 Speaker 1: on purpose. And we want to thank the following people 810 00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:25,880 Speaker 1: so much for making the show possible. First off, you 811 00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:30,719 Speaker 1: ridiculous historians, thanks for tuning in. Second well, first a, 812 00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:34,880 Speaker 1: our super producer and research associate for this series, mister 813 00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:37,439 Speaker 1: Max Williams. Who else? Who else? 814 00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:39,120 Speaker 3: Oh? You know, all the heads. 815 00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:44,120 Speaker 2: Jonathan Strickland, the quizter, our personal Aaron Burr, Benedict Arnold 816 00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,040 Speaker 2: and the other guy what was his name, the most 817 00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:48,840 Speaker 2: despicable one, James Wilkinson. 818 00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:50,399 Speaker 3: That's it, Wilkinson. You. 819 00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:53,839 Speaker 1: I also want to be fair and say like it was. 820 00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,280 Speaker 1: It was a tremendous pleasure to hang out with Jonathan 821 00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:57,240 Speaker 1: a little bit in Vegas. 822 00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:02,440 Speaker 2: Absolutely, he almost got assassinated by seafood tower. He was 823 00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,319 Speaker 2: sitting next to him. Yes, this is a true story. 824 00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:08,480 Speaker 2: He has a shellfish justly allergic to shellfish. Christopher Oscio 825 00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:13,600 Speaker 2: is here in spirit, Heves, Jeff Coke, Alex Williams, who 826 00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:14,479 Speaker 2: composed our theme. 827 00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:15,600 Speaker 3: Alex. 828 00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:18,239 Speaker 2: I don't know your last name, but who's visiting us 829 00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:21,400 Speaker 2: in the studio Alex circa nineteen hundred. 830 00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:22,640 Speaker 3: There we go. I love it. 831 00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:25,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, you go with that one, Alex. You want another 832 00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:26,799 Speaker 1: one that's pretty good. 833 00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:29,400 Speaker 2: That's pretty good Alex circa nineteen, that has a pretty 834 00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:30,400 Speaker 2: good history nickname. 835 00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:34,480 Speaker 1: Well, we won't expose real birthday. Okay, that's unfair, but 836 00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:37,120 Speaker 1: but yes and no. Of course, of course, of course, 837 00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:38,120 Speaker 1: thanks to you man. 838 00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:40,320 Speaker 3: He was well Ben, I'll see you next time, folks. 839 00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:50,000 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 840 00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:53,160 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.