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Speaker 1: On this episode of news World. In part two of

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Speaker 1: my discussion with Dwight Chapin, we talk about Watergate. Do

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Speaker 1: I thank you for your candor about Watergate? I think

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Speaker 1: fifty years later, it's still fascinating to hear an account

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Speaker 1: from someone who was working in the Nixon white House

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Speaker 1: at the time. After all, this, Nixon wins one of

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Speaker 1: the largest election victories in history. The momentum seems to

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Speaker 1: be there, and then the Watergate scandal breaks, which really

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Speaker 1: began June seventeenth, nineteen seventy two, or a break in

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Speaker 1: of the Democratic National Committee headquarters by some guys who

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Speaker 1: really were stunningly incompetent. I mean, this is sort of

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Speaker 1: a low level screw up that then evolves into a

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Speaker 1: cover up, and it's the up there really begins to

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Speaker 1: be like a cancer you end up. And I've never

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Speaker 1: understood this. I mean, you were the first to go

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Speaker 1: on trial because of Watergate, although you weren't involved in Watergate.

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Speaker 1: So how did that happen? Okay, so this is very important, dude.

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Speaker 1: There's Watergate, which we know as the major crime with

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Speaker 1: the cover up and so forth. The part that I

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Speaker 1: was involved in is way over at the side and

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Speaker 1: would be called the prankster type stuff or dirty tricks.

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Speaker 1: I'd hired a college roommate to go out and to

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Speaker 1: do prankster what we call Dick Tuck type activities. Dick

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Speaker 1: Tuck was a Democratic prankster round for years and had

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Speaker 1: always been doing stuff on Richard Nixon. I was called

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Speaker 1: into the Oval office in round February of nineteen seventy one,

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Speaker 1: and Bob Haldiman and Nixon are sitting there and the

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Speaker 1: buzzer gone off. I'd been called in and it was

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Speaker 1: a very simple question, do you know anyone who we

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Speaker 1: could get to do Dick Tuck type stuff on the

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Speaker 1: Democrats when the next election cycle comes up. I said,

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Speaker 1: let me think about it, and I went off and

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Speaker 1: I hired my friend Don Sagretti, who had been a

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Speaker 1: roommate at USC. It was a mistake I made, but

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Speaker 1: I didn't consider it a mistake at the time. To me,

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Speaker 1: it was a very logical request because I knew exactly

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Speaker 1: what the men meant. I had known Dick Tuck for years.

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Speaker 1: Down at the Bush Convention in New Orleans, I run

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Speaker 1: into Dick Tuck on the floor of the convention. He's

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Speaker 1: got every GOP credential known demandkind hanging around his neck.

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Speaker 1: Most of my friends didn't have as many credentials to

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Speaker 1: get around the Republican convention as Dick tucted. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he just had this knack and it was funny stuff,

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Speaker 1: and I knew him personally, obviously. Let me break in

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Speaker 1: for one second. We've always had this problem being conservatives

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Speaker 1: and Republicans that the media will think something done by

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Speaker 1: a left winger is funny and something done by us

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Speaker 1: is a threat to the republic. And I remember one

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Speaker 1: of the stories after I guess maybe the first debate,

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Speaker 1: Tuck hiring an older woman to stand at the foot

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Speaker 1: of the plane and when Nixon came off to say,

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Speaker 1: it's okay, you'll do better next time, and that was

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Speaker 1: sort of a classic. Tuck was a genius at psychological warfare,

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Speaker 1: which was fine if you were a liberal Democrat. When

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Speaker 1: we tried to do the same thing, it was, of

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Speaker 1: course a threat to the very republic. Yes, one of

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Speaker 1: my favorite deck tax stories was that when Nixon was

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Speaker 1: running in nineteen sixty against Jack Kennedy, Nixon goes to

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Speaker 1: Chinatown in the San Francisco area and there's this big

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Speaker 1: banner behind where Nixon is speaking, it's in Chinese, and

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Speaker 1: the banner in Chinese says vote for JFK. I mean

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Speaker 1: Mixon didn't know the difference, but Tuck had put the

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Speaker 1: banner up. I mean, it was that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 1: So why does that get you in trouble? So that

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Speaker 1: gets me in trouble because when Woodward and Bernstein and

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Speaker 1: the Washington Post started investigating and looking into CREEP, they

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Speaker 1: come across the fact that the Creep operation had some

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Speaker 1: people that were out doing stuff worse than what Cigretty

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Speaker 1: was doing. The guy I knew we should say, by

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Speaker 1: the way, for listeners, CREEP was the committee to re

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Speaker 1: elect the president. Yeah, the committee to re elect the president.

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Speaker 1: They had made a decision at one point that I

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Speaker 1: was not aware of that Don Segretti should be put

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Speaker 1: under Howard Hunt and G. Gordon Liddy. And although Don

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Speaker 1: never did anything for them, they had met with him

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Speaker 1: briefly in Florida and his name into an address book.

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Speaker 1: And when that address book got found by the FBI,

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Speaker 1: when they found Don's name, that's what led him to them.

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Speaker 1: And then from Dawn it was a jump to me.

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Speaker 1: And as the Washington Post started uncovering various things because

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Speaker 1: the FBI was leaking stuff to Woodward and Bernstein through

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Speaker 1: Mark Felt. Mark Felt was the number two men at

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Speaker 1: the FBI, and he has become known as deep throat.

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Speaker 1: They discover that this guy Don Sagretti, who was Dwight

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Speaker 1: Chapin's friend. Well, I never never was as close to

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Speaker 1: Richard Nixon as I became as this all started unfolding,

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Speaker 1: because I was part of the battery ram to get

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Speaker 1: into the White House. So while I had nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with the cover up or the greater Watergate experience,

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Speaker 1: I had hired Don Sagretti. And that is the linkage

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Speaker 1: that got to me the important point that I want

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Speaker 1: to make, and that I detail in my book. I

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Speaker 1: go into incredible detail on this, particularly in the appendix.

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Speaker 1: The break in happens on the sixteenth end of the

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Speaker 1: seventeenth of June. On the Monday after the break in,

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Speaker 1: John Deane meets with G. Gordon Liddy in Lafayette's Park

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Speaker 1: and he asked them who at the White House knew?

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Speaker 1: We know knew, maybe not the precise date, but we

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Speaker 1: knew he knew there was going to be a break in,

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Speaker 1: And he mentions one other person and that person is

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Speaker 1: Gordon Strawn. Now, when Dean talks to the President as

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Speaker 1: this starts unfolding, he tells the President nobody at the

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Speaker 1: White House knew. He doesn't tell the president he knew.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't tell the President that Gordon Strong knew. He

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Speaker 1: says nobody at the White House knew, and Nixon is

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Speaker 1: not told that the White House had someone that knew

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Speaker 1: for nine months. The tapes clearly proved that it was

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Speaker 1: in March of nineteen seventy three that Nixon was told

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Speaker 1: by Dean that Gordon Strong knew. And he says, I

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Speaker 1: am also culpable. So Nixon is making decisions and trying

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Speaker 1: to figure this thing out for nine months. Now. I

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Speaker 1: want to bring something back to your attention that I

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Speaker 1: think clearly is similar to this, and that is that

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Speaker 1: our whizz kid, Robert Matt n Emera, that was Secretary

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Speaker 1: of Defense under Kennedy and was stayed over there with Johnson,

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Speaker 1: wrote a book and in his book, and this is

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Speaker 1: years later, he admits that he gave false information on

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Speaker 1: the troops in the situation in Vietnam to Lyndon Johnson.

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Speaker 1: In other words, that Secretary of Defense gave false information

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Speaker 1: to the President of the United States who is trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out how to end the war in Vietnam.

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Speaker 1: We have John Deane who provides false information to Richard

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Speaker 1: Nixon on what is going on on Watergate. And it

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Speaker 1: is to me criminal that these men provide these leaders

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Speaker 1: who they are trusting, with this false information. I think

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Speaker 1: there's going to be a lot of looking in as

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Speaker 1: we move on through this. There's going to be some

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Speaker 1: more investigation on what did Nixon really know? You know,

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Speaker 1: Howard Baker had the right question, what did the president

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Speaker 1: know and when did he know it? And that question

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Speaker 1: what did the president know and when did he know it?

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Speaker 1: Couldn't be answered because the tapes I'm talking about were

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Speaker 1: not released until nineteen ninety five. Okay. The prosecutors didn't

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Speaker 1: want the defense to have him, so they weren't released. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So part of what could have been exculpatory material for

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Speaker 1: the men that did end up getting indicted, or much

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Speaker 1: more importantly for Richard Nixon himself and his having to resign,

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Speaker 1: if this information had been available, in my opinion, Nixon

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Speaker 1: would never have resigned. And also let me say that,

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Speaker 1: in my opinion, had Gordon Strawn on the twentieth of June,

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Speaker 1: in the first meeting he had with Bob Haldham and

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Speaker 1: his boss, if he had said, Bob, you know, I've

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Speaker 1: got to give you some bad news. Here is what

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Speaker 1: happened and told him instead he destroyed documents. He saddled

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Speaker 1: in next to John Deane, and they went forward to

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Speaker 1: the Senate and they both lied, and on the tape

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Speaker 1: when Nixon asks about this, Dean says, don't worry about

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Speaker 1: straw and he's already lied twice. And that is in

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Speaker 1: my book The President's Man. So you ended up the

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Speaker 1: indicted and convicted. You served about eight months, I guess

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Speaker 1: nine months. Nine months. Well, let me ask you what

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Speaker 1: was it like to have been a White House official

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Speaker 1: and now to be in a federal prison. Yes, well,

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Speaker 1: I do make the point in my book I wish

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Speaker 1: I had gone to prison before I went to the

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Speaker 1: White House, because I think I could have been helpful

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Speaker 1: in some of the legislation and other things were Understanding

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Speaker 1: what's going on in these prisons is important. I will

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Speaker 1: say this. One of the first days I was walking

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Speaker 1: across the quad area at the prison, and this was

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Speaker 1: a low security type prison, not a high security and

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Speaker 1: out of a window somebody Nixon Man, Hey, Nixon Man, Hey,

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Speaker 1: Nixon Man. And then that kind of got my attention,

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Speaker 1: and a few days later an inmate kind of shoved me.

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Speaker 1: I was walking down the hallway and they kind of

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Speaker 1: used their elbow, and so I mentioned this to one

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Speaker 1: of the older men that was around there, and they said,

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Speaker 1: you need to go talk to Big Mike Thompson. He

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Speaker 1: has the Black Cultural Workshop. So I went over to

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Speaker 1: what they called his house. He was a two man

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Speaker 1: room and I knocked on his door and the door opened,

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Speaker 1: and there's Big Mike Thompson. He filled the whole doorway.

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Speaker 1: He had come out of solid Ad prison. He was

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Speaker 1: on his way to freedom, but he had to come

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Speaker 1: to this low security thing for a couple of years

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Speaker 1: before he could move forward. I said, Mike, my name's

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Speaker 1: Dwight Chapin. I's been recommended. I talked to you. I

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Speaker 1: went into his room. We talked for I don't know,

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Speaker 1: an hour, maybe more. He became very fascinated with my story,

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Speaker 1: loved politics. In fact, I had Pat Buchanan autographed one

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Speaker 1: of Pat's books and send it into him. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: the bottom line was in talking to Big Mike Thompson.

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Speaker 1: The word went out throughout Lompoke Prison and nobody came

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Speaker 1: near me again. So it's one of those things where

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Speaker 1: it has its own culture, its own way of operating,

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Speaker 1: and thank god, somebody was smart enough to tell me

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Speaker 1: to go talk to him. And then Mike and I

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Speaker 1: became very, very good friends. And then in nineteen eighty

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Speaker 1: eight you get back in president politics again. What drew

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Speaker 1: you to work on the Bush campaign? Well, actually, I

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Speaker 1: don't know if you know Bill Timmins. Bill Timmins was

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Speaker 1: in congressional relations outstanding man. So Reagan had a planning

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Speaker 1: group that I was a part of, and we met

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Speaker 1: in Washington, but then the group moved to Detroit for

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Speaker 1: the actual convention period itself. And I got on a

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Speaker 1: plane and I went to Detroit. And when I went

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Speaker 1: to the meeting, there were maybe twenty of us in

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Speaker 1: the room, and the state chairman from Ohio by the

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Speaker 1: name of Keith Bulan. He went around the table and

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Speaker 1: everybody introduced themselves and so forth, and I introduced myself.

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Speaker 1: He realized who I was, and he immediately adjourned the

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Speaker 1: meeting and he pulled me aside, and he says Dwight,

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Speaker 1: we can't have you here because of your participation back

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Speaker 1: with Nixon. And I said, okay. I got on an

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Speaker 1: airplane and I flew back to my home in Chicago.

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Speaker 1: I got off the airplane at O'Hare and I called

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Speaker 1: Bill Timmons, who had invited me to be part of

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Speaker 1: this group. I said, Bill, I've just been asked to

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Speaker 1: leave Detroit. He said, you stay right there by that phone.

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Speaker 1: I stayed right there by that phone. He made a

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Speaker 1: phone call and he called me back and he said,

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Speaker 1: you get on the next plane and you go back.

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Speaker 1: He said, I just got off the phone with ed Meese,

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Speaker 1: and we would be honored to have you a participate.

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Speaker 1: And Ed Meese, the guy that ended up being Attorney

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Speaker 1: General of the United States, is the man that made

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Speaker 1: it possible for me to re enter politics. I went

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Speaker 1: over there, I helped out. I worked all through the convention,

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Speaker 1: all through the back and forth between should we pick

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Speaker 1: Jerry Ford or who are we going to pick? And

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Speaker 1: then the picking up George Herbert Walker Bush. So that's

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Speaker 1: really when I re entered back into politics. I'm curious,

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Speaker 1: You've had a remarkable career, just your Chinese and Russian

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Speaker 1: experiences would justify a pretty good career. But you've done

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Speaker 1: so many more things. If you were talking to young people,

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Speaker 1: what would you say, is the greatest lesson you've learned

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Speaker 1: throughout your political career. Yes, the greatest lesson I learned.

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Speaker 1: First of all, if you get an opportunity to go

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Speaker 1: to Washington and to participate it in our government on

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Speaker 1: the hill or in the executive branch, go do it.

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Speaker 1: We need good, solid people participating. So get in the arena.

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Speaker 1: I love that Teddy Roosevelt man in the arena thing.

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Speaker 1: Get in there. You may lose some, you may win some, whatever,

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Speaker 1: and then be honest, tell the truth. I went to

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Speaker 1: prison new because it was said that I made false

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Speaker 1: and misleading statements to a grand jury. I don't believe

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Speaker 1: I did that in my heart of heart. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I know my intent when I went in, and I

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Speaker 1: went in and I told the truth. But a jury

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Speaker 1: decided that when I said not that I recall or

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Speaker 1: not to the best of my memory. By the way,

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Speaker 1: Hillary said not that I recall not to the best

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Speaker 1: of my memory about fifty times. But all I had

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Speaker 1: to do is say it once or twice, and I

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Speaker 1: was indicted because Juwarski needed to get somebody as fast

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Speaker 1: as possible to get to halting it. By the way,

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Speaker 1: it could also be that if you're a conservative, we

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Speaker 1: actually expect you to remember something, and if you're liberal enough,

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Speaker 1: we know you're not going to remember anything. You've got it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you've understood all this stuff for years. The

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Speaker 1: game in the House is tilted by House. I mean

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Speaker 1: the game in Washington Republicans have it much harder and

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Speaker 1: so forth. But my advice to young people is get in,

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Speaker 1: tell the truth, always tell the truth, and fight for

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Speaker 1: what you believe in. I had a very interesting experience

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Speaker 1: on LinkedIn. I got a young man that got in

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Speaker 1: touch with me who is a foreign affairs advisor to

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Speaker 1: a Democrat member of Congress, and he told me, he said, Dwight,

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Speaker 1: I got involved in foreign policy because when I was

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Speaker 1: a high school student, I studied Richard Nixon. And when

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Speaker 1: I graduated, I went to Beijing and I went to

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Speaker 1: the Chinese University and I studied Chinese and I came

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Speaker 1: back and Richard Nixon is my role model because I

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Speaker 1: want to participate in the foreign policy arena over the

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Speaker 1: years ahead. It blew my mind. I immediately had a

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Speaker 1: zoom call with this guy. I've introduced him to several

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Speaker 1: other people. For a young person to have an interest

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Speaker 1: like that in Richard Nixon to me is fantastic. That's great.

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Speaker 1: I want to thank you for joining me. Issday said

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Speaker 1: in my praise for your book, The President's Man. It

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Speaker 1: sheds a unique, interesting light on one of our most

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Speaker 1: complicated an effective presidents. Because of Watergate, A few people

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Speaker 1: recalled the Nixon was historically popular, remarkably successful, and I

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Speaker 1: think anyone who cares about American history in politics should

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Speaker 1: read The President's Man. And I really recommend our listeners

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Speaker 1: pick up a copy. Learn about Nixon from someone who

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Speaker 1: knew him well. It's a fascinating read. And I can't

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Speaker 1: tell you how much I'm grateful that you would spend

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Speaker 1: this kind of time with us. This has been a

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Speaker 1: real pleasure and I love sharing these stories with you.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you. To my guest Dwight Chapin. You

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Speaker 1: can get a link to buy his new book, The

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Speaker 1: President's Man, The Memoirs of Nixon's Trusted Aid on our

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Speaker 1: show page at newtsworld dot com. Newtsworld is produced by

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Speaker 1: Gangwig Sweet sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Garnsey Slum,

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Speaker 1: Our producer is Rebecca Howe, and our researchers Rachel Peterson.

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Speaker 1: The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley.

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Speaker 1: Special thanks to the team at Gingwich three sixty. If

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Speaker 1: you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple

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Speaker 1: Podcast and both rate us with five stars and give

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Speaker 1: us a review so others can learn what it's all about.

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Speaker 1: Right now, listeners of newts World can sign up for

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Speaker 1: my three free weekly columns at Ingwide three sixty dot

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Speaker 1: com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. This is newts World.