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Speaker 1: The Michael Berry Show. There are certain things from history

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Speaker 1: that you don't just say, well, that's history and move on.

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Speaker 1: The Holocaust would be one such example. The coronavirus and

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Speaker 1: the quote unquote vaccine, and the mandatory jabs and the

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Speaker 1: lives lost, the lockdowns. These are things you don't simply

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Speaker 1: move on from. You learn from. But before you can

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Speaker 1: learn from them, you have to face painful realities and

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Speaker 1: you have to pick at a wound that a lot

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Speaker 1: of people want to move on from. That's not how

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Speaker 1: you progress. George Santana famously said, those who do not

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Speaker 1: learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them.

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Speaker 1: Often the very people who want to quote move on

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Speaker 1: don't want to bear responsibility for what happened. Nick Saban

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Speaker 1: and other coaches will tell you that some of the

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Speaker 1: most important coaching you do of a team is not

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Speaker 1: during the team, during the game, but after the game,

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Speaker 1: when you come in and watch that painful game film

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Speaker 1: and you see what you did that you hope nobody noticed,

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Speaker 1: and how you failed here and came up short there.

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Speaker 1: It is very important that we go back and understand

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Speaker 1: what happened. On January sixth of twenty twenty one. It's

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Speaker 1: important that we understand what happened and not be told

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Speaker 1: what happened by those with an agenda, but that we

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Speaker 1: do our own research and we ask questions of various people.

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Speaker 1: One of the most important voices in all of that

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Speaker 1: who has seemingly been silenced officially is Steven sund who

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Speaker 1: was the Capitol Police chief at that time on that day,

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Speaker 1: and he's our guest chief.

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Speaker 2: Welcome, thank you very much for having me on. Michael.

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Speaker 1: Let's start with how you ended up the Capitol Police

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Speaker 1: chief leave January six aside, I think you were a

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Speaker 1: Metro police officer in DC before that. Talk about your career,

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Speaker 1: why did you get into law enforcement? Jeff family in it,

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Speaker 1: and then just walk me through your whole career there.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, I mean get the sertus succinctly as possible. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: So I did twenty five years with the DC Police,

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Speaker 2: and I got into policing because my dad had actually

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Speaker 2: gotten sick early early on. He had got lakimia. He

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Speaker 2: was a Bee fifty two pilot. He had been sick

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Speaker 2: for a number of years, but passed away when I

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Speaker 2: was sixteen. So after we got back from the funeral,

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Speaker 2: we just happen to be visited by two friends of

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Speaker 2: ours that we used to live with right nearby in

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Speaker 2: California that became Fremont Police officers Carolyn brad Brown Needing

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Speaker 2: sant touch today. They had reached out and came to visit.

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Speaker 2: This was the same day that we had buried my dad,

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Speaker 2: and as a young sixteen year old, as a very

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Speaker 2: pivotal part of my life, I looked at and said,

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Speaker 2: you know what I think. I know what I want

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Speaker 2: to do, and at from that point on, I was pursuing.

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Speaker 2: Right around twenty three, I applied to the couple different departments,

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Speaker 2: but DC Police picked me up. Started there right around

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Speaker 2: twenty five. By the time I went into the academy,

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Speaker 2: got out and patrolled as an officer in what they

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Speaker 2: call the sixth District, which is Antacostia, one of the

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Speaker 2: most violent parts of Washington, d C. Was there for

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Speaker 2: a couple of years, made sergeant, went to seventy, which

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Speaker 2: is also one of the most violent parts in Anacostia,

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Speaker 2: South Anacostia, down by South Capitol Street Congress Heights. Patrolled

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Speaker 2: there for a little bit and then started rising up

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Speaker 2: through the ranks. Became a lieutenant and then I got

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Speaker 2: assigned downtown for a little bit and went to Special

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Speaker 2: Operations Division, where I kind of stayed from lieutenant on

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Speaker 2: doing all the major events, major demonstrations in Washington, d C.

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Speaker 2: Made Captain inspector being commander of the Special Operations Division

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Speaker 2: from twenty ten to twenty fifteen, and that's when I retired.

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Speaker 2: At the end of the very last day, December thirty first,

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Speaker 2: twenty fifteen, I retired. We had the Pope come visit

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Speaker 2: in October, and I figured it's a good head out

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Speaker 2: went out and you know, kind of worked a little

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Speaker 2: bit in the private sector for just about eight months,

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Speaker 2: and then the House and Senate Sergeant Arms approached me

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Speaker 2: to come over and become the assistant Chief of Operations

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Speaker 2: for Capitol Police, and January seventh, I started. Twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 2: Started at the US Capitol Police just a few days

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Speaker 2: before Trump's inauguration, and I'd been involved in It's probably

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Speaker 2: my fifth or sixth inauguration I've been involved in planning

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Speaker 2: of so they brought me in right before that and

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Speaker 2: was there and then in May became the May of

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Speaker 2: twenty nineteen, became the chief and started revamping a lot

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Speaker 2: of operations and capabilities, and then January sixth happened and

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Speaker 2: I was removed from the position the very next day

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Speaker 2: by Speedar Pelosi. And I'm sure our conversation is going

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Speaker 2: to cover.

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Speaker 1: A couple of things along there, absolutely, but before that,

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Speaker 1: let's set in place our procedures so we know the

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Speaker 1: context within which we're working. I was with Senator Cruz

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Speaker 1: at an event in Milwaukee a few years ago and

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Speaker 1: he had a large contingent of Capital Police and I

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Speaker 1: learned that those are a sign based on kind of

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Speaker 1: death threats, and it's all on a screen, as you know,

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Speaker 1: And it turns out he was getting more death threats

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Speaker 1: than Pelosi and every other member of Congress combined. And

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Speaker 1: it was kind of interesting to me that that was,

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Speaker 1: you know, that that unlike the president, which is kind of,

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Speaker 1: you know, a designated secret service for the president. It

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Speaker 1: was sort of where is the threat right now? It

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Speaker 1: might be Jasmine Crockett on Monday, it might be Ted

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Speaker 1: Cruz on Thursday, or whoever that might be. But talk

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Speaker 1: to me about how the Capital Police chief is hired

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Speaker 1: and to whom they report and take orders.

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Speaker 2: Okay, and you're you're absolutely right about what you just

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Speaker 2: you just mentioned. We do statutory security details for the

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Speaker 2: leadership before on the House and the Senate side, and

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Speaker 2: then others based on the threat. So you're actually right there.

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Speaker 2: So the Capitol Police chief, and it's interesting, it's not

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Speaker 2: like any other police chief in the country. The I

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Speaker 2: report to a Capitol Police Board. They're the one that hire,

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Speaker 2: hire and fire me. We'll get into that too. They're

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Speaker 2: the ones that really have the hiring authority, but they

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Speaker 2: only do it with the approval of Senate leadership and

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Speaker 2: House leadership. Uh So, when I was first hired, you

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Speaker 2: had let's see, Schumer was over on the for the

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Speaker 2: chief's position. Schumer was over on the Senate side, and

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Speaker 2: Pelos who was on the House side, and they both

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Speaker 2: had to approve my hiring for the position. So you

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Speaker 2: go through and what's interesting to understand is the Capitol

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Speaker 2: Police Board is made up of for individuals the House

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Speaker 2: and Senate sergeant arms who are considered to be the

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Speaker 2: lead law enforcement agent for the House and for the

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Speaker 2: for the and one for the Senate. So when you

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Speaker 2: think of the chief as the top law enforcement official

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Speaker 2: for the legislative branch, I'm sorry, when you think of

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Speaker 2: the chief as the top law enforcement official for the

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Speaker 2: legislative branch. That's not the case. The Senate and the

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Speaker 2: House starge Arms actually are are above me. The third

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Speaker 2: person in the Capitol Police Board is the art contect

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Speaker 2: to the Capitol, and then the fourth person is the

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Speaker 2: Chief of Police. The three people that are politically appointed,

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Speaker 2: the House and Senate sarge arms, they are expected the Capitol,

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Speaker 2: all have a vote on how things go for the

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Speaker 2: Capitol Police and they control everything from some schedules, which

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Speaker 2: doors we cover, which equipment we can use. If I

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Speaker 2: want to get my officer's tasers, I had to go

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Speaker 2: to the Capitol Police Board and get approval, and then

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Speaker 2: I had to go to my oversight committee and get

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Speaker 2: approval for them. If I wanted to deploy fencing, I

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Speaker 2: got to go to the Capitol Police Board. If I

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Speaker 2: want to everything, pretty much all operations has to be

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Speaker 2: approved by the Capital of Police boards. That just gives

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Speaker 2: you a little bit of an idea what I'm dealing

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Speaker 2: with as the chief. It's very political. It's very political

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Speaker 2: because they the House and Senate sergeant Arms, who carry

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Speaker 2: mostly weight, don't want to do anything that's going to

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Speaker 2: upset their congressional leader. So we may be having a

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Speaker 2: hearing on the Supreme Court justice being nominated, and I

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Speaker 2: want to put up certain offencing. Well, one side may

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Speaker 2: want no fencing put up so protesters can come in,

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Speaker 2: you know, proms or you know the other side, and

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Speaker 2: he wanting to shut down all the buildings at public entry.

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Speaker 2: So we don't think.

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Speaker 1: That's going to be a good segue into our next

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Speaker 1: discussion point. Our guest is Stephen Sund who was the

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Speaker 1: Chief of Police of the Capitol Police on January sixth,

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, that fateful day. We'll talk about his perspective,

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Speaker 1: which I bet you haven't heard and may be surprised

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Speaker 1: by coming up. Stephen Sund is our guest. He's a

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Speaker 1: former Capital City Police chief, a position he held on

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Speaker 1: January sixth, twenty twenty one. I wanted to make the

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Speaker 1: point with his background, this guy's not a lightweight. He's

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Speaker 1: got a BS at MS from Johns Hopkins University, a

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Speaker 1: pretty highbrow, rigorous academic background. He has an MA and

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Speaker 1: Homeland Security from the Naval Postgraduate School. This guy is

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Speaker 1: thoughtful about strategy and operations and logistics in law enforcement.

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Speaker 1: It's what he's devoted his life too. This isn't somebody

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Speaker 1: who rolls through the ranks because they checked the right

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Speaker 1: box that they weren't a white male. He is, in

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Speaker 1: fact a white male. This is a guy who, by

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Speaker 1: all accounts, and I think he has demonstrated cares deeply

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Speaker 1: about law and order and security and preserving the peace,

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Speaker 1: and that's to be respected. So now we get to

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Speaker 1: January sixth. I know you've told this story because I've

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Speaker 1: seen you tell this story. I wish i'd let you

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Speaker 1: tell your story in public, but let's walk through. I

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Speaker 1: won't interrupt you. Why don't you tell the story as

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Speaker 1: you know it of January sixth?

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Speaker 2: I will, and I think your listeners will definitely be

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Speaker 2: surprised about what they're about to hear because a lot

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Speaker 2: of people will hear about Trump offering National Guard and

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Speaker 2: what happened to the Nation Guard and stuff like this.

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Speaker 2: You're going to hear the truth. This truth has been

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Speaker 2: upheld by congressional hearings. I come with the facts. I'm

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Speaker 2: thirty years law enforcement. I'm not going to say something

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Speaker 2: that I can't back up. So let's tick you back

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Speaker 2: to the Sunday before January sixth. January third, it was

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Speaker 2: the first day of the one hundred and seventeenth Congress,

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Speaker 2: regardless if it falls on a weekend, January third is

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Speaker 2: always going to be the first day of a new Congress.

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Speaker 2: When it comes into session, we do all the swearing

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Speaker 2: ends of the members of Congress, so it's a big

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Speaker 2: damp on the Capitol hill. I had been kind of

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Speaker 2: watching the crowd sides that were coming in, and mind you,

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Speaker 2: the intelligence I was getting, and the intelligence to a

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Speaker 2: whole other issue of what the intelligence I was getting

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Speaker 2: didn't say anything about any type of coordinated attack at

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Speaker 2: the Capitol, any threat to the federal billings or to

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Speaker 2: the Capitol, or to members of Congress, nothing like that.

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Speaker 2: I was just concerned about the size of the crowd

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Speaker 2: and the number of officers I had to put on

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Speaker 2: my perimeter. I had four foot high bike rack that

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Speaker 2: was going to surround the Capitol, which is a sizable area.

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Speaker 2: I only had two hundred and seventy three officers to

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Speaker 2: put on that perimeter, and that included response officers for

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Speaker 2: civil disobedience, so it wasn't a whole lot of officers.

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Speaker 2: Because we had a joint session of excuse me, a

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Speaker 2: joint session of Congress it took a lot of my

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Speaker 2: personnel inside building. So I'd gone over to the Senate

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Speaker 2: the House Sergeant Arms. I'm acquired by federal law. This

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Speaker 2: is another interesting thing. If I want to bring in

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Speaker 2: any assistance for my officers, any federal assistance, whether it's

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Speaker 2: be a National Guard f any federal assistance, I have

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Speaker 2: to buy law its to us nineteen seventy get permission

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Speaker 2: from the Capitol Police Board. So Sunday morning, at nine

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Speaker 2: thirty five, I went over to see the House Sergeant Arms.

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Speaker 2: Guy by the name of Paul Irving, who I knew.

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Speaker 2: He carried most of the weight. He was the big,

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Speaker 2: heavy hitter. Everyone kind of listened to him on the

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Speaker 2: Capitol Police Board. I know this would be a sensitive

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Speaker 2: topic for him, but I went over to ask for

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Speaker 2: National Guard support, specifically, just for the preiter unarmed national

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Speaker 2: Guard support. I wasn't asking for farm national Guard support

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Speaker 2: at that time. He didn't approve it. He didn't approve

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Speaker 2: it specifically because he said he didn't like the optics

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Speaker 2: of the National Guard standing a line with the Capitol

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Speaker 2: in the background. And I think that was because he

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Speaker 2: felt is his boss, his main boss, Speaker Pelosi would

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Speaker 2: have gotten upset about it, and he also said the

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Speaker 2: intelligence and supported Well, yeah, I understand the intelligence didn't

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Speaker 2: support it, but I still worried about the size of

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Speaker 2: the crowds. And I told him, you know that I'm

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Speaker 2: worried about the size of the crowds and I'd like to,

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Speaker 2: you know, have some resources on the perimeter with my officers. Again,

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Speaker 2: he at that point.

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Speaker 1: Can you give us a time frame again? When when

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Speaker 1: was this conversation?

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Speaker 2: Roughly, this conversation was on Monday, January third, three days

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Speaker 2: before January seven.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so plenty of time to muster troops if you need.

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Speaker 2: Them, plenty of times the must mustard troops we've we've used,

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Speaker 2: you know, in my in my history with DC Police

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Speaker 2: and even with with Capitol Police. Who eaves National Guard

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Speaker 2: And there's plenty of time. But it gets it gets

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Speaker 2: even better because I'm going to tell you how we

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Speaker 2: knew the Nation Guard. It's prepared. So he refers me

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Speaker 2: over to Mike Stinger, who's now the chairman of the

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Speaker 2: Capitol Police board and he became the chairman on that day.

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Speaker 2: I went over to his office. Mike Stinger wasn't inn

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Speaker 2: I came back later on right a little bit after eleven,

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Speaker 2: he's in the office, and I can tell he's already

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Speaker 2: been giving heads up on coming over to ask for

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Speaker 2: National Guard. When I asked for National Guard support, he

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Speaker 2: won't approve it again, he's concerned. Later on he in

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Speaker 2: April of that after January sixth, I finally asked me

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Speaker 2: and said he do you know I was coming over,

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Speaker 2: said irving, and told him, but anyway, he wouldn't He

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Speaker 2: wouldn't approve it. He said, you know, why don't you

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Speaker 2: call Do you know anybody at the DC National Guard

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Speaker 2: if we need their assistance? How quickly could they get here?

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Speaker 2: And I know the commanding General of the DC National Guard,

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Speaker 2: William Walker, General Walker. I told him I can call

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Speaker 2: General Walker, but that's still not going to help us

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Speaker 2: if we're having, you know, issues on the perimeter. But

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Speaker 2: he said, I got a run out. He's going to

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Speaker 2: the swearing in of members of Congress, and he said,

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Speaker 2: that's that's that's the best we're going to do. He

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Speaker 2: wouldn't approve it, so he leaves out. I go back

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Speaker 2: to my office later on that day. Just a short

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Speaker 2: time later, I get back. One of my deputy chief's

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Speaker 2: approaches me and says. We received a call from Carol Corman.

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Speaker 2: She's the program manager for the Defense Support for Civil Authorities,

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Speaker 2: which is the National Guard, and coming to support you know,

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Speaker 2: civil authorities, law enforcement it's needed. She was calling Dad

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Speaker 2: if we were going to be requesting the National Guard

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Speaker 2: for January six Now I had just been denied twice

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Speaker 2: my request for the use of National Guard on January sixth,

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Speaker 2: and by law, I had to tell him to tell

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Speaker 2: her no, we aren't. I've dealt with her before because

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Speaker 2: I'd been denied. So coming into January sixth, I don't

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Speaker 2: have Pentagon had offered National Guard. I had to turn

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Speaker 2: it down. I've been denied twice by the House and

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Speaker 2: Senate Sergeant Arms. So coming into January sixth, twelve fifty eight,

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Speaker 2: I'm in the command center. We're working with the pipe

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Speaker 2: bomb that had we started dealing with down at the

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Speaker 2: Republican National Committee, which is just a couple of blocks

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Speaker 2: south of the US Capital. We had been alerted of

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Speaker 2: a pipe bomb. I want to say, right around twelve

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Speaker 2: forty one pm, we're dealing with that. I mean, my

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Speaker 2: watchmanager showing me some pictures of the pipe bomb. When

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Speaker 2: somebody says we have a large crowd approaching our west front.

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Speaker 2: To look up, but we have cameras. There's two roadways

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Speaker 2: coming up toward the west front, right next to the

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Speaker 2: reflecting pool, Pennsylania Avenue, Maryland Avenue. Coming up to two circles.

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Speaker 2: I see a couple of hundred people at each of

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Speaker 2: the circles grew up approaching our fence line and some

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Speaker 2: of the people in the group got very confrontational and

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Speaker 2: physical with the officers very quickly. I've handled lots of protests.

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Speaker 2: I've seen lots of you know, where the marchers come

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Speaker 2: up to the line and the gate, and we'll usually

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Speaker 2: have ten fifteen minutes of back and forth where they're

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Speaker 2: yelling and stuff like that before it gets to this point.

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Speaker 2: This was a matter of a matter of minutes before

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Speaker 2: they started pulling out the gate and swinging at my officers.

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Speaker 2: And again this was a core group of people that

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Speaker 2: were in the in the crowd. So I look down,

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Speaker 2: that's twelve fifty three. I see what's going on. I

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Speaker 2: you know, having come from DC Police, I reached over

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Speaker 2: to dcent Police and said, hey, if you guys get

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Speaker 2: some resources, send them our way. And then at twelve

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Speaker 2: fifty eight, I called the Senate Star of the I'm sorry,

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Speaker 2: the House Sergeant arms Paul Irving to request permission. I'm

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Speaker 2: still required by law to request permission even in an emergency.

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Speaker 2: Now Congress has since changed that law December of twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty one. They changed it and allows the chiefs calling resources.

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Speaker 2: That I having to go through this, but anyway, they say,

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Speaker 2: admitted the failure. So twelve fifty eight, I call Paul Irving.

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Speaker 2: It took eleven calls. Let me back up. I start

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Speaker 2: following myself. My adrenaline start pumping when I'm talking about this.

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Speaker 2: So when I first called him, I said, it's bad

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Speaker 2: on the West Front. My officers are getting overrun. I

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Speaker 2: need federal resources now, I need permission to call in

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Speaker 2: the National Guard. He says to me, quote, let me

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Speaker 2: run this up the chain and I'll be right back

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Speaker 2: to you. So he and he has a liaison officer

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Speaker 2: sitting right behind me watching the same thing I'm seeing

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Speaker 2: on my screens. I get off the phone. I'm dumbfounded.

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Speaker 2: I'm seeing again. My officer is now backing up as

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Speaker 2: the crowd's getting starting to move on the Capitol. I

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Speaker 2: So I call Mike singer the Senate sergeon Arms call

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Speaker 2: him immediately and say, hey, you know we're getting overrun again.

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Speaker 2: He has the liais I'm sitting right behind me. I

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Speaker 2: need a media permission to bring in the National Guard.

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Speaker 2: He said, what did Paul Irving tell you? I said

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Speaker 2: he's going to run it up the chain. I means

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Speaker 2: mean he's gonna run Speaker Pelosi and get right back

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Speaker 2: to me. He said, let's wait to hear from Paul Irving.

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Speaker 2: I made eleven more phone calls to the two of them,

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Speaker 2: seventy one minutes before I finally got approval. At two

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Speaker 2: nine pm to fourteen pm, the crowd breaks the first

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Speaker 2: window and starts climbing in the Capitol. Think about that.

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Speaker 2: It took eighty one minutes for that crowd to fight

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Speaker 2: its way up to the Capitol and break the first window,

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Speaker 2: and for seventy one of those minutes, I was repeatedly

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Speaker 2: denied bringing in any federal resources for my men and women.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you to hold right there. It's

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Speaker 1: a perfect spot, yep. It continues with former Capital Chief

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Speaker 1: Stephen sound the chief of the Capitol Police, on January sixth,

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, with Stephen Sound. He's our guest telling

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Speaker 1: his story. And we were now in the middle of

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Speaker 1: the afternoon. You've waited over an hour, You've met a

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Speaker 1: number of calls. The situation is turning in your estimation.

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Speaker 1: Are the people who are beginning to approach the capital?

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Speaker 1: Do you suspect that any of those individuals are federal plans?

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Speaker 1: Do you suspect that they're paid activists? Do you think

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Speaker 1: they're just people who showed up or frustrated? Do you

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Speaker 1: have a sense of that?

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Speaker 2: So are you asking like at the time or are

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Speaker 2: you asking now that I reflect back on it.

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Speaker 1: I'm glad you asked. I guess both would be important

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Speaker 1: to know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So at the time, all I was thinking about

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Speaker 2: is how do we get my officers some assistants. They

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Speaker 2: were they were getting their rear ends handed to them,

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Speaker 2: and I need to get them some assistants real quick.

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Speaker 2: And I was just dumbfounded at repeatedly denials and delays

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Speaker 2: I was getting. You know, looking back on it, you know,

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Speaker 2: I keep hearing I try and you know, really stick

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Speaker 2: to it. Be a person of the facts. If I

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Speaker 2: know facts, I'm going to pass them on. You know,

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Speaker 2: I hear a lot about you know, there could have

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Speaker 2: been tief in the in the crowd. There could have

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Speaker 2: been you know, different people in the crowd very well

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Speaker 2: could be if I if I had facts to that,

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Speaker 2: I'd absolutely pass that, pass that on to you. Looking

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Speaker 2: at some of the videos, you see a lot of

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Speaker 2: people all wearing you know, it looks like brand new equipment,

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Speaker 2: brand new hats, flags, stuff like that. Who knows, who

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Speaker 2: knows what that that could tell you, But I will

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Speaker 2: tell you, you know, I've suspected you know all, And

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Speaker 2: it wouldn't be unusual front event in Washington. See when

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Speaker 2: you talk about federal agents, whether it's a Fourth July celebration,

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Speaker 2: a state funeral, a h Cherry Boston parade paper even

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Speaker 2: something like that. We we still have you'll put together

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Speaker 2: some of these plain closed teams that oftentimes are made

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Speaker 2: up of you know, people from the Washington Field Office

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Speaker 2: of the FBI, Secret Service, some of the Joint Terrorist

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Speaker 2: Task Force members just to go out there and keep

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Speaker 2: an eye look for any issues. Or if we get

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Speaker 2: a suspicious package, the can you know, respond to the

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Speaker 2: suspecial package quickly to start making assessments. So it wouldn't

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't have been surprised to think, okay, we had

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Speaker 2: some some plain closed assets in the in the crowd.

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Speaker 2: But you know, as I began to do my research,

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Speaker 2: and you know, I literally got stripped out of my

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Speaker 2: office the very next day and I hopefully we have

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Speaker 2: time to get to that. And I literally sat at

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Speaker 2: home and I had people come out of the woodwork.

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Speaker 2: I had whistle blowers come out and started pushing information

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Speaker 2: to me, and found out that the FBI had been

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Speaker 2: receiving information just prior to January sixth that indicated there's

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Speaker 2: several what they considered domestic terrorists that were most likely

401
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Speaker 2: planning to come to Washington, d C. For the event.

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Speaker 2: Then as we got closer, the numbers seemed to seem

403
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Speaker 2: to get higher. So you know, and I found this

404
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Speaker 2: in the aftermat that there at one point they were

405
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Speaker 2: tracking nineteen people that were on their domestic terrorists list

406
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Speaker 2: as coming to planning on coming to Washingt d C. Now,

407
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Speaker 2: I can tell you this, they're not tracking them with

408
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Speaker 2: just nobody. They're going to be tracking them with agents.

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Speaker 2: If they think somebody comes in, they know they have

410
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Speaker 2: a flight coming in, or that they're gonna putting eyes

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Speaker 2: on these people. So it wouldn't you know, if we're

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Speaker 2: we have that many people that they suspect our domestic terrorists,

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Speaker 2: I suspect you're going to have significant resource in the

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Speaker 2: crowd watching them. Uh. So that's where I based my

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Speaker 2: my opinion on. Now, Christopher Ray has come out and

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Speaker 2: said that there was a number of what they call

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Speaker 2: confidential human sources chs is in the crowd. Some people

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Speaker 2: have said the CHS is, we're the ones watching the

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Speaker 2: uh their domestic terrorist targets. I don't buy that. That's

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Speaker 2: not what I consider the good police work, because you

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Speaker 2: can only trust the CHS so much. But that's where

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Speaker 2: I always base my opinion on that. You know, one

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Speaker 2: I would have been surprised there's playing closed ass in

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Speaker 2: the crowd. But when you start hearing about you know,

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Speaker 2: there's some of these people that are out there that

426
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Speaker 2: are pushing them to get into the capital and move

427
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Speaker 2: on the capital, I find that very very concerning. And

428
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Speaker 2: if and if proven to be true, that's, you know,

429
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Speaker 2: that's definitely not what they're supposed to be doing. And

430
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Speaker 2: that is, you know, contrary to the oath of oath

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Speaker 2: they take.

432
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,760
Speaker 1: I know, you choose your words carefully, not out of cowardice,

433
00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:09,000
Speaker 1: but out of caution, is it outside the realm that

434
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:09,600
Speaker 1: that could be the.

435
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:14,879
Speaker 2: Case, outside the realm that some people could be pushing

436
00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,360
Speaker 2: pushing the group. Well, when you act and you think

437
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:24,000
Speaker 2: about why why am I denied repeatedly in advance? Why

438
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,680
Speaker 2: am I denied while you know, just to blatant that

439
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,000
Speaker 2: while my officers are under attack, And then I run

440
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 2: into problems with the with the Pentagon. Finally once I

441
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,560
Speaker 2: do get approval approving my request, and now we find

442
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:39,040
Speaker 2: out that there's probably some influence coming from General Millie

443
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 2: on on that the influence on from General Milly onto

444
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,560
Speaker 2: Acting Secretary of Defense Christopher Miller that caused him to

445
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:48,919
Speaker 2: place additional restrictions on the National Guard that no one

446
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,720
Speaker 2: knew about. When you start looking at that, you're like, yeah,

447
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,440
Speaker 2: this really, you know, could make a really interesting conspiracy

448
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:57,560
Speaker 2: theory novel when you look at what was going on

449
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,440
Speaker 2: in that aspect, and you know who who was you,

450
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,560
Speaker 2: you know, getting the most traction out of the whole

451
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:08,480
Speaker 2: January sixth initiative. You know, we haven't been able to

452
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,200
Speaker 2: identify the pipe bomber yet, which is I find that

453
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:16,119
Speaker 2: very interesting, But yeah, I mean, you know your listeners

454
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,520
Speaker 2: probably would be surprised. And when I activated muchel laid

455
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:22,120
Speaker 2: the New Jersey State Police made it before the DC

456
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:26,159
Speaker 2: National Guard coming down to the DC National Guard had

457
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,960
Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty five troops within eyesight of Capital

458
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:31,280
Speaker 2: and they didn't get the until five forty pm at

459
00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,399
Speaker 2: night once once all the fighting was over. And remember

460
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:36,680
Speaker 2: I told you well when I called, when I finally

461
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 2: got in touch with the Pentagon, the Pentagon wanted me

462
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,639
Speaker 2: on a conference call. This was bright on two thirty

463
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:45,760
Speaker 2: four pm. They wanted me on a conference call to

464
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,400
Speaker 2: then find out why I'm requesting National Guard. I think

465
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,840
Speaker 2: that would have been fairly self evident with anybody watching

466
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,200
Speaker 2: this on TV. But I'm on the phone with a

467
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 2: guy mate by the name of Lieutenant General Walter Pyot,

468
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 2: also on the phone with me as Mayor Bounser Chief

469
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,479
Speaker 2: of Police for the DC Police, Robert Conti, the director

470
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 2: of Emergency Management for DC, a number of other people,

471
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 2: including a guy that at one point was the Army's

472
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:15,719
Speaker 2: Acting General Counsel, Colonel Earl Matthews. He has since come

473
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,760
Speaker 2: out as a whistleblower on my behalf and I told him,

474
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,359
Speaker 2: I said, I need a National Guard support immediately. This

475
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:23,360
Speaker 2: is a life and death situation. They've now gotten into

476
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 2: the Capitol. We're battling to keep him out of the capital.

477
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 2: And he tells me the exact same thing Paul Irving

478
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,440
Speaker 2: told me, I don't like the optic of the National

479
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 2: Guards standing aligne with capital in the background. I was

480
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 2: dumbfound I'm hearing the exact same thing. So you know,

481
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 2: I'm wondering is there was some talking points behind this.

482
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 2: I repeatedly, I'm begging him, almost at Pears and the

483
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 2: marriage co Mountain said this. I was almost at Peers,

484
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,359
Speaker 2: begging him to send me resources, and kept hearing this

485
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 2: over and over, and he said, his recommendation is to

486
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 2: that that I in my request. That was his first response. Uh.

487
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:57,919
Speaker 2: And then I kept pleading with him. He said, well,

488
00:24:58,000 --> 00:24:59,919
Speaker 2: let me run this up the chain, and that's when

489
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 2: we had the shooting of ash Dab and I had

490
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 2: to get on the phone.

491
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:09,440
Speaker 1: It's uh, it's so frustrating. I mean, I think in

492
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,480
Speaker 1: many ways, I look at what happened in your career.

493
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 1: I think of how many officers that day never recovered,

494
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 1: and we know that some took their own lives. I

495
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 1: think how many people who went to the Capitol, in

496
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 1: my suspicion, who did little or nothing and relatively speaking,

497
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,399
Speaker 1: and ended up in prison. I just think of this

498
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 1: as horrible as Richard Nixon or as Gerald Ford referred

499
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,400
Speaker 1: to the next administration. It feels like a long national nightmare,

500
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 1: and it's extremely, extremely disturbing. And I believe you don't

501
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,480
Speaker 1: have to and I'm not saying you do or don't.

502
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 1: I believe that the various forces were at work here

503
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 1: and a lot of good people doing their jobs, and

504
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 1: a lot of people, patriots got caught up in it

505
00:25:55,760 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 1: and were terribly, terribly affected by you mentioned earlier you

506
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 1: made reference to, and I hope we'll have time to

507
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,879
Speaker 1: get to that. We will make time in the next segment.

508
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 1: Stephen Sundays our guest. He was a Capital City police

509
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 1: chief on January the Capitol Police chief on January sixth,

510
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one. Stephen Sunday is our guest. He was

511
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 1: the police chief of the Capitol Police on January sixth

512
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,360
Speaker 1: of twenty twenty one, that fateful day. And you made

513
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 1: reference chief to getting pulled into an office. I wasn't

514
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 1: sure exactly, but you said, I hope we'll have time

515
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 1: to talk about that, and I made a little scribble

516
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:36,680
Speaker 1: note to go back to that so that I do

517
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 1: make time for you. So go ahead at the floor

518
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:38,920
Speaker 1: is yours?

519
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 2: I appreciate it. So you know, here we are January,

520
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 2: January sixth. We get everybody back into back in the session.

521
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 2: The National Guard finally shows up at five forty pm.

522
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 2: We have to swear them in a special police officers.

523
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 2: Once they get off their bus, the fighting is over.

524
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 2: You know, we've got everything, everything's secured. I brought in

525
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,479
Speaker 2: seventeen law enforcement agencies, seventeen hundred police officers. That's all

526
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:07,959
Speaker 2: taken care of. What do they do. They line up

527
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 2: with all their riote gear, take a picture with the

528
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 2: Capitol in the background, and put it on Military Time magazine.

529
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 2: I thought you'd just get a kick out of that.

530
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:15,640
Speaker 2: When the Pentagon had said they were so concerned about

531
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 2: the optics and to have that bid the optics that

532
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 2: they took away from it, that was interesting. So the

533
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 2: next day we're briefing January seventh. The morning of January seventh,

534
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 2: we're briefing members of Congress. Now, now, mind you, that

535
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 2: evening I talked to Speaker Pelosi three times. First time

536
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 2: brought around five thirty five, I'd gone over to brief

537
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,159
Speaker 2: Vice President Pence. We had him at a secure location

538
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 2: on Capitol Hill. He had been calling me a couple

539
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:43,719
Speaker 2: of times asking me to come over and brief him.

540
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 2: I couldn't leave because you know, I had to be

541
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 2: up in the fan center getting things under control. But

542
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 2: once we could, I went over to brief him. When

543
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 2: I briefed him of when we can get them back

544
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 2: into session, he got Speaker Pelosi on a call. We

545
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 2: pretty sure And this has now all come out, and

546
00:27:57,119 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 2: you see the film footage that comes out from our

547
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 2: daughter that was with their Speaker Pelosi, which he's saying,

548
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 2: I take responsibility. But and you'll see some of this

549
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 2: that that I talk about, And there's a video of

550
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 2: me with Pence and her getting a call from Pence,

551
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 2: and that's one of the calls. So I talked to him.

552
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 2: I talked to her three times. So the next day

553
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 2: we're briefing my oversight. We're briefing members of Congress about

554
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:21,359
Speaker 2: you know, what the plan is moving forward with the

555
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 2: plan is with National Guard support. When I get a

556
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,440
Speaker 2: call that Speaker Pelosi. This is right on one o'clock

557
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:28,439
Speaker 2: in the afternoon, is getting ready to go on national

558
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 2: TV and call for my resignation. I said, okay. My

559
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 2: general counsel and my chief administrative officers, you know, said hey,

560
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 2: let's go in your office. We'll watch it there. Gave

561
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 2: my wife a little heads up, went in, watched it

562
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 2: and it was about a twenty minute press conference, and

563
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 2: it's on YouTube. You can watch. It's the very end

564
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 2: of the press conference. It's a planning question. Somebody asked,

565
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 2: you know, what are you gonna do about the security

566
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 2: figures up on Capitol Hill. She says, that's a great question.

567
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 2: We're going to do an after action study, which would

568
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 2: have been smart if she'd just stopped there. But then

569
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 2: she's calls me out by name and says, I'm calling

570
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 2: for the resignation of Chief's son. There was a failure

571
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 2: of leadership at the top, and you know he has

572
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 2: to go. He he failed. I'm trying to think exactly

573
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 2: what she said, but you could tell she studies over

574
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 2: her voice for a little bit. Now, mind you, I

575
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 2: had caught tried to get National Guard in advance on

576
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 2: January third, and repeatedly on January sixth, and been denied

577
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 2: by her sergeant at arms specifically, and then she goes

578
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 2: on national TV says there's a failure of leadership at

579
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 2: the top of the Capitol. Police calls me out by name,

580
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 2: then tells the American public and I haven't even called

581
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 2: her since this curve, which is a lie, and then

582
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 2: calls for my resignation. You know, I sat and talked

583
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 2: to my wife. I was hading stuff for thirty six hours.

584
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 2: I was shell shocked. I said, you know, fine, I

585
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 2: submitted my letter of resignation with a three week transition

586
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 2: period in the very that The very next morning, I

587
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 2: got a call saying you're immediately. I was cut off

588
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 2: from all my computer access and was to move out

589
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 2: of my office immediately. So over that weekend I actually

590
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 2: was moving everything at my office and has never stepped

591
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 2: back and foot in that office again. Nobody has talked

592
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 2: to me. Uh, well, very little. I had to go

593
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 2: down for a couple of conferences, but yeah, it wasn't

594
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 2: getting didn't get access to any investigation, nothing like that.

595
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 2: So so I agree there was there was a number

596
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 2: of key people in that crowd that I think were problematic,

597
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 2: But I think a lot of those people in that

598
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 2: crowd were what I call straphangers, people that just kind

599
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 2: of followed along, looked at the crowd, went in, didn't

600
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 2: do anything, didn't assault the officers at all.

601
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 1: You know that.

602
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 2: I think, you know, it's a shame how some of

603
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 2: these people got treated. I've been in policing for a

604
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 2: long time. I've never seen that type of levels of

605
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 2: sentencing handed down, even for APO assault on police officer.

606
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 2: So I was kind of surprised by that. But you know,

607
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 2: to be to be stripped away from an agency I

608
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 2: loved when I tried to prevent that. Now Congress has

609
00:30:57,880 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 2: come out. If you look at some of the recent

610
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 2: hearing and reports, Congress has said, if the Sergeant at

611
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 2: Arms had approved Sun's request for dashguard support on January third,

612
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,959
Speaker 2: chances are the capital have never been breached. And then

613
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 2: in December seventeenth, twenty twenty four, under Chairman Very Louder

614
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 2: Route their last report that they did. Now that I

615
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 2: think the committee's coming back again. Their last report exonerates

616
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 2: me by name. But I'm still fighting to get the retirement.

617
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 2: My retirement was stripped all you know, all benefits and

618
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 2: everything like that. It was immediately stripped. Yeah, oh yeah, yep, yeah,

619
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 2: I was only a few months away from me, totally

620
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 2: totally vested, and I do believe if the facts have

621
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 2: been known, I may even still be there today. Who knows,

622
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 2: but yeah, they so they exonerated me December seventeenth, twenty

623
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 2: twenty four. I'm one of maybe a handful of people

624
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 2: in history that Congress has has exonerated by name, which

625
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 2: is which is interesting. But I'm still working with the committee,

626
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 2: still working with Chairman louder Milk, you know, working to

627
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 2: get some executive branch support to have them look at

628
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 2: my case to see about, you know, returning whatever benefits

629
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 2: may have been stripped from me.

630
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 1: How many years in law enforcement, total of thirty.

631
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 2: Years in law enforcement. I did retire from DC Police.

632
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 2: I did get my retirement from DC Police. But for me,

633
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,719
Speaker 2: it's it's now just a it's not the federal retirement.

634
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 2: It's not anything big. But for me, it's the principle.

635
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 2: It is the fact that you know, I tried to

636
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 2: stop this. I tried to stop it repeatedly, was repeatedly denied,

637
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 2: And this all you know I've got. I've turned over

638
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 2: all my phone records, my transcripts, my emails, they have everything,

639
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 2: and I just find that that interesting that you know

640
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 2: I'm the one targeted, but you know we'll fight. I

641
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 2: know the truth is, the truth is coming out, and

642
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 2: that's more of the truth comes out, and the better

643
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 2: it looks for me.

644
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 1: Lives are destroyed in this manner. You're not going to

645
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 1: allow your life to be destroyed because you are survivor

646
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 1: and a prevailer, but lesser men would be. And I

647
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 1: think it's very important to see, you know, chiefs Son,

648
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 1: I always counsel doing what I do. I am approached

649
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 1: with a lot of what will be called conspiracy theories,

650
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 1: and that is, you know, sometimes slapping a pejorative tag

651
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 1: on a theory that might very well have otherwise been legitimate.

652
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 1: So I have come to learn and I counsel this often.

653
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 1: You have to be careful that you don't believe every

654
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 1: conspiracy theory that is offered, just because you're prone to

655
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 1: believing and inclined and biased and prejudice toward conspiracy theories. However,

656
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 1: the parallel to that is you have to be careful

657
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 1: if you refuse to believe anything called a conspiracy theory,

658
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 1: or you'll end up eighteen shots into Joe Biden's protocol

659
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 1: and Faul she's laughing at your funeral. So I think

660
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 1: there is somewhere in between where you have a more temperate,

661
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 1: measured approach to news of the day. But several of

662
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: the things that you describe strike me as so outside

663
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 1: the chain of command, so outside traditional policing principles, particularly

664
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 1: as it relates to a highly political environment. And I

665
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 1: realize that you know much more and could say much

666
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 1: more damning things. And I respect the fact that you're

667
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 1: holding that tight that would be in your defense. But

668
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 1: these are things that I think every American needs to know,

669
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 1: and that the Liz Cheney Show trial and all of

670
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 1: that which they didn't allow you to speak to you know,

671
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:47,840
Speaker 1: I consider this to be a major calamity, a major

672
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:53,800
Speaker 1: disaster in American life that needs to be explored to

673
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 1: extremely great extent. Chief, If you can hold with me

674
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 1: for one more segment, I have a couple more questions.

675
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 2: I absolutely have to.

676
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 1: Chief. Stephen sund is our guest s U. N. D.

677
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 1: If you'd like to look him up. He's he's written

678
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 1: a book about all this. We'll talk about that in

679
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,799
Speaker 1: just a moment. He has giving an interview now. He's

680
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 1: the former police chief of the Capitol police. On January sixth,

681
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, Nancy Pelosi went after him and basically

682
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 1: destroyed his career. As it were, Chief souned you, you

683
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 1: had a lot of guys how big is the Capital

684
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 1: Police Force?

685
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 2: Capitol Police Force? When when I was there, a lot

686
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 2: of people are kind of surprised by It's one nine

687
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,880
Speaker 2: hundred and sixty three officers with a budget of about

688
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 2: four hundred and sixty three million dollars. It comes out

689
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 2: to me about the twenty fifth department in the country.

690
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 1: My son's both I have a son who's a senior

691
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 1: in high school and a son who's now a sophomore

692
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 1: in college, and they interned for Congressman this summer. And

693
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 1: I had worked for a law firm in DC thirty

694
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 1: years ago, so it was fun for me and my

695
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 1: wife to get to go back and spend some time

696
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 1: there and meet them for lunch and walk around the

697
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 1: Capitol and do the tours and all that. We hadn't

698
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 1: done that in a long time, And I mean it's significant.

699
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:17,239
Speaker 1: People don't realize it is. As you said, it would

700
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 1: be about the twenty fifth largest police force in the country,

701
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 1: and there are real security concerns and you know, somebody

702
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 1: could argue that's too many or whatever else there are.

703
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:31,879
Speaker 1: It's a spread out area. You have kind of the boulevards,

704
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:36,720
Speaker 1: the way that the boulevards the esplanade style, big grand

705
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 1: European boulevard. That's hard to police. There's a lot that

706
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,320
Speaker 1: goes into this. But I want to go back to

707
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 1: January sixth and the officers there. There were officers who

708
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 1: died and one the claim was he was hit by

709
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 1: blunt force object and my understanding is whether he was

710
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 1: or he wasn't. His family said he did not die

711
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 1: from blunt force trun but that you had a number

712
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 1: of officers who committed suicide. They took their own life.

713
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 1: Their lives were not taken by the protesters. Can you

714
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 1: speak to that.

715
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 2: Absolutely. You've got again a lot of different questions there.

716
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 2: So technically, there was one officer whose death was they

717
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 2: went back and said it's what they call immediately a

718
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 2: line of duty death. That was officer Brian sick Nick.

719
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:27,239
Speaker 2: He was one of the officers I was in walve

720
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:28,839
Speaker 2: some of the fighting on the West Front. He had

721
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 2: been sprayed with pepper spray. At one point the media

722
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 2: had said he had been hit with the fire extinguisher,

723
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:36,880
Speaker 2: which didn't turn out to be true. I actually know

724
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 2: the DC police officer that got hit by that but

725
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 2: ended up later on that night, at about probably close

726
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:49,240
Speaker 2: to ten o'clock, maybe between nine and ten, was walking

727
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 2: with a group of officers. We now have the capital

728
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 2: under control. We've got a bunch of officers on the perimeter,

729
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 2: insides under control. He's now walking with a couple of

730
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 2: Capitol Police officers and a Virginia State trooper who happens

731
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 2: to be a medic. Uh to go get a I

732
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:07,320
Speaker 2: t He's walking along and he just drops and the

733
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 2: medic immediately went to work on him. And I had

734
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 2: a chance to talk to the medic. He said, you know,

735
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,320
Speaker 2: as soon as he hit the ground, you there was like,

736
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 2: you know, he was completely unconscious. He went over to

737
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 2: GW Hospital where they identified that he had uh what

738
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 2: appeared to be some type of a neurological issue at

739
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,360
Speaker 2: the base of his brain stem uh with no brain activity,

740
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:32,319
Speaker 2: and then ultimately passed away the very next day. That's

741
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:34,799
Speaker 2: the case I think you're talking about. The autopsy by

742
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 2: the DC Medical Examiner was concluded, uh. They and they

743
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 2: concluded in the autopsy that he passed away with what

744
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 2: he said were natural causes UH, and he had a

745
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 2: double stroke at the base of his brain stem.

746
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 1: UH.

747
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:50,240
Speaker 2: Later on the same medical examiner in a press conference

748
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 2: had stated that the actually the activities of the day

749
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,360
Speaker 2: contributed to his medical condition. So it wasn't in the

750
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 2: in the right. But you know that that was enough

751
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 2: if you have somebody that's on duty and then I'm

752
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:07,360
Speaker 2: just saying this from a law enforcement management or leadership

753
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:09,800
Speaker 2: point of view. If you have somebody that's on duty

754
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 2: uh in conducting their their line of duty and dies,

755
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:16,279
Speaker 2: that's gonna be a line of duty death. And this

756
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:18,880
Speaker 2: was a line of duty death. So that was a

757
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 2: situation with Brian sick Nick. Then what you had is

758
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:27,879
Speaker 2: on that Saturday, which would have been the ninth, January ninth,

759
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 2: you had the first of a series of suicides. UH.

760
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:34,480
Speaker 2: First by the name of Howard's Leaving Good. He was

761
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 2: a US Capitol police officer, lived out in Fairface County,

762
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,799
Speaker 2: committed suicide. I was in moving all the stuff out

763
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:44,400
Speaker 2: of my office when my watch manager came in and

764
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 2: passed on that that news to me.

765
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 1: UH.

766
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,359
Speaker 2: The person who was acting who they made acting chief,

767
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 2: and that's the whole story in itself was at home

768
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 2: and I had to call her and tell her, you know,

769
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:56,839
Speaker 2: the news, and tell her to come on in because, uh,

770
00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:59,759
Speaker 2: you know, we got a lot to do. But yeah,

771
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 2: So so his suicide ultimately, after a lot of back

772
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:08,480
Speaker 2: and forth, was made a line of duty death. My my,

773
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 2: my thought is, you know, with with many lines different

774
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 2: lines of work, especially in law enforcement, you're exposed to

775
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:17,840
Speaker 2: a lot of different trauma you go through, you know

776
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 2: a lot of different issues. There's a lot of PTSD

777
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:24,880
Speaker 2: uh in law enforcement. But we've really fought hard, uh

778
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 2: to make sure that officers know that there's there's options.

779
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 2: You know, these officers walk around, they've got a gun

780
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 2: on their hip. Uh, you know whenever they're on duty

781
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:34,839
Speaker 2: to carry it home with them. Uh. They have other

782
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 2: options than to than to turn and consider suicide. Now

783
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 2: you know, it's it's okay to get counseling. You know

784
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:46,320
Speaker 2: a lot of agencies wait counseling available to the officers.

785
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,359
Speaker 2: I get concerned that, you know, it's it's always it's

786
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,879
Speaker 2: rare that they'll ever make a suicide line of duty death.

787
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:56,319
Speaker 2: And I just hate to think that, you know, there's

788
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 2: other people that are thinking Okay, now we've had his

789
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 2: suicide declared line of duty. Jeff Smith, who is with

790
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:06,360
Speaker 2: DC Police, committed suicide. I want to say, imprised me

791
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 2: ten days later on like January nineteenth. If I have

792
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:10,839
Speaker 2: my dates right, I think I'm pretty close. But it's

793
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 2: been a couple of years committed suicide. His was also

794
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 2: determined to be a line of duty death. I get

795
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 2: concerned that, you know, when when you do that, I

796
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 2: don't want to give officers the impression that, you know, hey,

797
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 2: if I've had really a couple of traumatic experiences and

798
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:26,400
Speaker 2: you know, things aren't going well for me, this is

799
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 2: an option for my family get you know, full full

800
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 2: benefits in a line of duty death funeral. It just

801
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 2: raises for me. It raises concerns when they go through

802
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 2: that that you know, this may be an option for him. So,

803
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 2: you know, i't want any any officers listening that you know,

804
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:46,879
Speaker 2: this isn't isn't a course of action that you really

805
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:50,320
Speaker 2: want to take. You know, consider the counseling, consider what

806
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 2: other options are to you, and you know, don't don't

807
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 2: turn toward your service weapon or anything like that to

808
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 2: solve problems.

809
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:03,839
Speaker 1: It's unfortunate that an individual is in a position where

810
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:06,399
Speaker 1: that does make sense to them, and it's a good

811
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,239
Speaker 1: reminder of how difficult this job is and why it

812
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 1: is deserving of respect. Steven Son, is there anything we

813
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 1: did not get to? I got about a minute that

814
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 1: you wanted to offer up before we close.

815
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. I appreciate you mentioning the book. My intention was

816
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 2: to never write a book. You always hear about these

817
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,800
Speaker 2: people writing books. I'm sitting at the desk where when

818
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 2: I was forced to leave. I sat down and I

819
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 2: started just writing every note I've done after action reports,

820
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 2: over and over and over again, and started putting this together.

821
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:37,719
Speaker 2: And at first my wife was like, he sure, this

822
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 2: is what you want to do, because I was reliaving

823
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 2: this for fourteen hours a day every day, and then

824
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:45,400
Speaker 2: when it all started coming together, you wouldn't believe what

825
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 2: was going on with the intelligence, with the with the FBI,

826
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,239
Speaker 2: with you know, I was putting together a briefing beforehand,

827
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 2: and what was being told me that it's just when

828
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 2: you look at it, it just got so chaotic and

829
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:00,319
Speaker 2: it didn't have to be like that. I still believe

830
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 2: January sixth could have been prevented if they wanted they

831
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:05,759
Speaker 2: listen to me. But if so many people had just

832
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:08,720
Speaker 2: done their job the way they're supposed to, we wouldn't

833
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 2: be here talking right now. So I ended up putting

834
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 2: it together. It's now been referred to on Capitol Hill

835
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 2: as the Defentative after Action of January sixth. If your

836
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:19,759
Speaker 2: readers are interested, it's on Amazon. Get the paperback. The

837
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 2: paperback has the most up to date information, but I

838
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:26,719
Speaker 2: think they'll find it shocking. It's the The exoneration I

839
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 2: got from Congress isn't even in there because it happens

840
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 2: since the last edition. So I'm sure that'll be updated.

841
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 2: But you know, January sixth Committee under Barry Laudermuk's coming back.

842
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 2: You know, they may invite me down to testify. I'm

843
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:41,239
Speaker 2: more than happy to testify. That'll be probably the third

844
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 2: time I've been down to testify. One time the Slight

845
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 2: Committe wouldn't let me testify in public. But you're gonna

846
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 2: hear a little you know, you'll read a little bit

847
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:51,359
Speaker 2: about the Slight Committee and some of the issues they had.

848
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 2: But no, I appreciate you mentioned it. I appreciate your

849
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:56,800
Speaker 2: interest in the in the story, there's there's still a

850
00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:57,439
Speaker 2: lot more there.

851
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:01,320
Speaker 1: Thank you. For your service. Good Sir Stevenson and Capitol

852
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:02,840
Speaker 1: Police Chief on January.

853
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 2: Sixth, Thank you, Michael.

854
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,400
Speaker 1: If you like the Michael Berry Show and Podcast, please

855
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:13,719
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856
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:18,920
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857
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:22,919
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858
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:27,399
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859
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:31,880
Speaker 1: Michael Berryshow dot com, or simply by clicking on our website,

860
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:36,880
Speaker 1: Michael Berryshow dot com. The Michael Berry Show and Podcast

861
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:42,360
Speaker 1: is produced by Ramon Roeblis, the King of Ding. Executive

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00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:51,240
Speaker 1: producer is Chad Knakanishi. Jim Mudd is the creative director.

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00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 1: Voices Jingles, Tomfoolery, and Shenanigans are provided by Chance McLain.

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00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:02,920
Speaker 1: Director of Research is Sandy Peterson. Emily Bull is our

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Speaker 1: assistant listener and superfan. Contributions are appreciated and often incorporated

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00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:14,160
Speaker 1: into our production. Where possible, we give credit, where not,

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Speaker 1: we take all the credit for ourselves. God bless the

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Speaker 1: memory of Rush Limbaugh. Long live Elvis, be a simple

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Speaker 1: man like Leonard Skinnard told you, and God bless America. Finally,

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Speaker 1: if you know a veteran suffering from PTSD call Camp

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Speaker 1: Hope at eight seven seven seven one seven PTSD and

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Speaker 1: a combat veteran will answer the phone to provide free counseling.