1 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. Hey, friends, Jackie and 2 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:23,280 Speaker 1: I just returned from crime Con, where we were able 3 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:27,640 Speaker 1: to discuss before live studio audience the death of Ellen Greenberg. 4 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: One of the great things about attending crime Con is 5 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:33,239 Speaker 1: that you're able to interact with like minded people that 6 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: are interested in forensics and death investigation. During our visit 7 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:40,160 Speaker 1: at crime Con this past weekend, Jackie and I were 8 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: able to sit down with a live studio audience and 9 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: discuss in detail the forensics. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and 10 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: this is body Backs. Let's take a listen. Jackie and 11 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: I've been talking about a case for quite a while now, 12 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:04,680 Speaker 1: and Uh, I'd say this case has probably gotten into 13 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 1: our hearts, certainly gotten into our mind, and kind of 14 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: captured the attention of the entire country. Uh. And it's 15 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: something that we've covered together. We've become friends. I guess 16 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: our acquaintances at least were the family Jackie in particular. 17 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 1: But today we're gonna talk about Ellen Greenberg. Ellen Greenberg, Jackie, 18 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 1: what can't you tell us about Ellen? Ellen Greenberg was 19 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: a teacher. She worked in an elementary school. Her kids 20 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: loved her, and she was a bride to be. She 21 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: was so excited she had just sent out that saved 22 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: the dates on her wedding. And she was found in 23 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:48,279 Speaker 1: her home, in her apartment, stabbed more than twenty times 24 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: in her front, in her back, and it was ruled 25 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: a suicide. Twenty two stab runs to her back, her head, 26 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 1: her tour, so and again it was classified as a suicide. 27 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: And Joe, I've got so many questions for you. People 28 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 1: don't normally stab themselves in a suicide, do they not? No, 29 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: it's not. And you know, going going back years and years, 30 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 1: Jackie had, you know, working with the Corner in New 31 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: Orleans and then working with Emmy in Atlanta. All of 32 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:26,360 Speaker 1: the years that that I was in my profession, I 33 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 1: have to say that I think maybe I remember two 34 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: cases where I had self inflicted stab wounds, and both 35 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 1: of those cases involved somebody that was in a severe 36 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: psychotic moment. As a matter of fact, one of the 37 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: individuals was a young man that was paranoid, schizophrenic that 38 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: was off of his medication. And when I say paranoid, 39 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: he's paranoid. He was actually looking for a microphone in 40 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 1: his forearm that he thought the CIA had planned that 41 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 1: gives you an idea. You know, they talked a lot 42 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: in this case about pain centers. This this guy actually 43 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 1: took a knife and opened his arm thirty two separate 44 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 1: times that we could count before he finally bled out. 45 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: But can you actually call that a suicide? So to 46 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 1: frame this, it's very rare And just so you understand 47 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 1: my background where I come from in the medical legal world, 48 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:19,360 Speaker 1: which is not I don't have a narrow spectrum of 49 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: looking at simply homicides. We in a medical examiner's corners office, 50 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 1: we're interested in all debts, all five all five manners, 51 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:30,919 Speaker 1: you know, homicide, suicide, accidental, natural, undetermined. All of that 52 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: is intellectually stimulating to us, and we have to make 53 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: those determinations. But Jackie, you know, contrary to what's steal 54 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: on television, you see all these gruesome homicides out there, 55 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: did you know that most people at medical examiner's offices 56 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:49,119 Speaker 1: and corners offices we handle a three to one suicides 57 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: to homicides. We were We are absolute. I don't claim 58 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 1: to be an expert in much, but when it comes 59 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: to suicide investigation, it's our Bailey Wick that's what we do. 60 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,119 Speaker 1: We look into suicides all the time, and actually they're 61 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: more difficult than homicides because many times you just don't 62 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 1: have a witness, you don't have a note. That's a typical. 63 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 1: But in Ellen's case, I gotta tell you over twenty 64 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: sharp force injuries she sustained, including if everybody will place 65 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 1: your hand on your right right parietal area, this large 66 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 1: bone right in this area and make emotion downward just 67 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: like this, generally about three to four inches. There was 68 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 1: a large, gaping in sized wound right here, almost like 69 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: someone had taken a blade and just drug it all 70 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 1: the way down to the bone. That's what I'm talking about. 71 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 1: I mean, how many of you guys in the audience 72 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 1: have actually ever hit your head on something. You know, 73 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 1: you raise up too quick and you realize how painful 74 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 1: that is. Ellen had this injury, not to mention a 75 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: flurry of injuries in her back, in her chest. The 76 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: knife was found buried here. She even had two stab 77 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 1: wounds to stab wounds that went into her spinal process. 78 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 1: One even touched even touched the dura, which is the 79 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 1: sleeve that covers the spinal cord, and there was no hemorrhage. 80 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:16,920 Speaker 1: You guys are amateur sluice. Many of you know what 81 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: that means. If there's no hemorrhage, what does that tell us? 82 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: That's probably a post mortem injury. So that's what we're 83 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: dealing with in this class, in this case. And just 84 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: so that you know, this case has been ruled a suicide. 85 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: So I think you actually had it right when you 86 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:35,159 Speaker 1: called it this class because you're going to teach us 87 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 1: a couple event. So let's look at how she was stabbed. 88 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 1: We know she was in her kitchen. She was making 89 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 1: a fruit salad. So if you look at an instrument, 90 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: the knife that you would use to cut a fruit salad, 91 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 1: you're looking at a pairing knife, a kitchen knife. If 92 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 1: you're at my house, you're using a regular kitchen knife. 93 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: What kind of a blade? We know they found one, 94 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 1: and you're gonna talk about that in a minute, But 95 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: what kind of a blade is it gonna take. Let's 96 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:07,159 Speaker 1: just say this injury in her head. What kind of 97 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:09,039 Speaker 1: blade is it gonna take to make that kind of 98 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:10,919 Speaker 1: an injury? Well, first off, it's going to take a 99 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 1: tremendous amount of pressure and you have to be committed 100 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:16,280 Speaker 1: to it. This is not something that you just it's 101 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 1: not a superficial kind of a braided area that you're 102 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: looking at. You're literally talking about, and we know it's 103 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 1: not blunt force trauma because that's a that's a strike. 104 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: Blunt force, you get a laceration. People don't understand the 105 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 1: difference between lacerations and in sized wounds. A laceration results 106 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: from blunt force trauma, and you'll get something that's called 107 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 1: tissue bridging, where the skin actually begins to kind of 108 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 1: tear apart a little bit, and you get these little 109 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 1: sinewy pieces of tissue that aren't clean cut like you 110 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 1: get with a milled blade. This is actually a sharp 111 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 1: force injury. The knife that was buried in her chest 112 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 1: was actually i think the eight eight inch eight inch 113 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:54,719 Speaker 1: or six inch eight inch. It was an eight inch 114 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 1: serrated steak knife or a knife that could be used 115 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:00,679 Speaker 1: as a carving knife. It was separate for the actual 116 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:04,719 Speaker 1: state knives, but it was a serrated edge that gives 117 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: a very particular opinion of appearance. The knife block, the 118 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: knife block that you have in the kitchen was actually overturned. 119 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 1: It's still only had three knives in it. There were 120 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:18,559 Speaker 1: still two knives in the sink, and there was water 121 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 1: in there one blade. To me when I saw the 122 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: crime scene images, look like it had blood on it. 123 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: And it was a smooth edge knife. It was like 124 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 1: a butchering knife like you would carve a turkey with, 125 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: for instance. And then of course you had the serrated 126 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: blade that's buried in her chest. Uh. And you know, talking, 127 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 1: I've gotta I gotta go down this road just a second, 128 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 1: because many people think, you know, when you think about 129 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: a suicide, um, most people think, well, what would be 130 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: the quickest, least painful way to go about this? And 131 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: Jackie made a fantastic point. She's cutting up a fruit salad. 132 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 1: There were blueberries, there were those little bitty oranges, um, 133 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 1: and uh, there were a couple of other items that 134 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: were there that were in the sink that she had 135 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 1: been cutting, and it struck me. I began to think 136 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: about this as I began to examine this case. Okay, 137 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: so you're you're standing at the sink and suddenly you decide, 138 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:17,679 Speaker 1: you know what, I think, this is an excellent time 139 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: to stab myself over twenty times. And it just it 140 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 1: was absolutely mind blowing to me. And when I say that, 141 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: you know, I talked about how infrequent these cases happen. 142 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 1: You know, you think about gunshot one of the head. 143 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:34,319 Speaker 1: That's very frequent in suicides. Most people think that it's 144 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 1: going to be say, for instance, number two is gonna 145 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 1: be like an O D. That's not. In my little 146 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 1: slice the world, it has consistently been uh, hanging it 147 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 1: very frequently, and it's not. They don't have to be suspended. Uh. 148 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: You get various types of hangings that occur. And what 149 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 1: do we all have in our home? Well, some of 150 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 1: you guys are wearing belts. I've seen people do it 151 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:57,199 Speaker 1: with a pair of jeans, sheets, all kinds of things. 152 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: Hangings very very common. Then we have people that well 153 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 1: O D. Certainly right, Um, and then you have carbon 154 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: monoxide way way down on the list is a self 155 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 1: inflicted stab? One twenty of them. Okay, but I gotta 156 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 1: I got a really good question. You said that this 157 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 1: wound here was a three to four inch Okay, what 158 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 1: kind of a knife are you gonna have that's gonna 159 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: make a gash like that? Well would have Okay, alright, 160 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: because if you went through the bone, it's bone. You're 161 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 1: not just gonna go stab and pull because you can't 162 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,439 Speaker 1: do that through a bone. Correct, No, and it it 163 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 1: didn't actually go into bone, It kind of glided over 164 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 1: the surface, but it went This is what we call 165 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 1: in in forensics, and this is what's referred to as 166 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: a full thickness injury. So if you began, if you 167 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:52,679 Speaker 1: just touch your sup right now and it cosses and 168 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 1: you can take your shar move your scalp around is 169 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: going to be deep up as a person will literally. 170 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 1: And the other point that you brought up a minute 171 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:08,199 Speaker 1: ago was the fact that there was a blade in 172 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 1: the scene that you think that you opine as you say, 173 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 1: that had blood on it, and then we have um 174 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 1: I didn't mention it earlier, but when Ellen was found, 175 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: she still had a blade in her chest. Okay, now, 176 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:28,079 Speaker 1: given that there were two blades, is she gonna stab 177 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,679 Speaker 1: herself for a while ago? Oh wait a minute, let 178 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: me change blades here. No, no, no, no, no, I 179 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 1: gotta tell you this is what I think that her body, 180 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: her body was found look like through all kinds of 181 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:44,439 Speaker 1: fancy terms at you. Here's a fancy medical term that 182 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 1: some of you may not hurt. Maybe you have, I know, 183 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 1: I've got people in medicine here. They used the term 184 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: supine and supine essentially meets face up. Okay, that she 185 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:56,439 Speaker 1: wasn't in a classic classically supine. It's kind of what 186 00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 1: they referred to as a modified position, where she is 187 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:02,679 Speaker 1: in her kitchen against she's got if you imagine your 188 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 1: cabinets at home, she's got a lazy Susan in one 189 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 1: of the corners. She's kind of leaning up against this 190 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: in supine, which means she's face up, but her shoulders 191 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 1: in the back of her head are contacting the surface 192 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: like this, so she's kind of slid down. You you 193 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 1: mentioned uses of multiple blades. The blood really doesn't extend 194 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: out any further than this location where she was found. 195 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:31,439 Speaker 1: You've got some contact blood that's there. You've got some 196 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: swipes that are there and very interesting. You've got these 197 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 1: kind of gravitational drops of blood that kind of are 198 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 1: on the outer perimeter. You can see these. They're very 199 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,839 Speaker 1: striking the outer perimeter of her body. And this is 200 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 1: consistent with somebody or an individual that is standing there. 201 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: Just imagine, I mean of you guys, have ever had 202 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 1: bloody nose. Bloody nose an audience, You have a bloody 203 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: nose and he's like, oh my god, I've got a 204 00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 1: bloody nose, and the first your first thing is not 205 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 1: to like, uh fling your head around. Many people will 206 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:04,439 Speaker 1: stand still. And if you look at the blood, hot 207 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:08,559 Speaker 1: drops drops directly down, blood drops in a sphere, and 208 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: then when it impacts, you'll have this kind of deepened 209 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 1: upon the surface it hits, it will have kind of 210 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 1: a modified uh circular shape to it. If it's going 211 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 1: straight down, this doesn't have a lot of energy. You've 212 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 1: got multiple of these drops, and it's almost consistent. Let 213 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,959 Speaker 1: me stand up just a second with an individual standing 214 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:31,839 Speaker 1: with a bloody blade in their hand and standing in 215 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: this position. If you've ever had a paint brush in 216 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 1: your hand and it's wet with paint, it drips down 217 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: the same principle, and it lines the body all the 218 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: way around here. And this is outside of her body. 219 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 1: She never touched it. It was away from her body. 220 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 1: So how exactly did that happen? And when you've got 221 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 1: this many injuries can imagine the pain that she was experiencing. 222 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 1: You would think that she would be thrashing around, there'd 223 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: be blood contact all over place. It was limited to 224 00:12:57,440 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: that location. Well, I got another point about where she 225 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,320 Speaker 1: sitting again. She was sitting in her kitchen, leaned up 226 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 1: against the countertop. If I am stabbing myself, am I 227 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: just gonna sit down and say, Okay, I'm gonna sit 228 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 1: here while I die. I mean, I just can't imagine 229 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 1: that all of a sudden she just decided to sit down. 230 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: You know, that's an excellent point, because I got I 231 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:26,439 Speaker 1: gotta back up just a second, because when you when 232 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 1: you really begin to think about this, why is it 233 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 1: that you would choose to do this in this particular 234 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: place and use this methodology? Because it's no secret. Um, 235 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: Ellen was under a lot of pressure. You know, she 236 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 1: just sent out wedding invitations. She was a school teacher. 237 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: Lord knows, that's enough pressure in the world. I'm married one. 238 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 1: I know. It's it's God bless all the teachers out there, 239 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:55,559 Speaker 1: God bless you all. Um. But she's she had anxiety. 240 00:13:55,920 --> 00:14:00,559 Speaker 1: She was on multiple different types of anti anxiety medication. Um, 241 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 1: and you think she had wine? Well why not? I mean, 242 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:07,439 Speaker 1: what do they always tell you don't mix drugs and 243 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:11,199 Speaker 1: wine and you've got anti anxiety medication, why not just 244 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:14,679 Speaker 1: take a handful of these pills and watch it down 245 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:17,439 Speaker 1: with chardonnay or whatever it is that you have. Why 246 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: is it that you're gonna take a blade and drive 247 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 1: it into your body multiple times and your intent, according 248 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: to the authorities, is to take your own life. Let 249 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 1: me tell you something. With knife wounds, there are no 250 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: guarantees because you don't know, you don't know if you're 251 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: gonna strike a vital area. And a lot of the 252 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: injury she has, she's gotten multiple superficial injuries where it 253 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: looks like the tip of the blade has been driven 254 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: just under her skin and hell there just for a minute, 255 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: and these populate her back, they populate her chest. And 256 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: I hadn't even gotten to one of the most gruesome 257 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: injuries she has, which other than this, and of course 258 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 1: the ones in the ba of her skull, she had 259 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 1: been stabbed in her liver. Now, if you'll take your 260 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: right hand and find the bottom of your rib cage 261 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 1: on the right side, Okay, that approximates the location of 262 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: your liver. Now, the liver is one of the most 263 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: vascular organs in the body. So if you insult this area, 264 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: the moment you insult that area, you will get an 265 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 1: infusion of blood. It doesn't have the ability to think, well, 266 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 1: there's a hole in the body, it's gonna it doesn't. Literally, 267 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: your internal organs will be floating in blood. When we 268 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: open bodies up, for instance, that have livery injuries, copious 269 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 1: amounts of blood occupied the abdominal cavity. But not only 270 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: that when she stabbed herself or was stabbed or it 271 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: just happened by miracle, I don't know. This injury in 272 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: her chest, not only does it clip the order of 273 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: her heart, the major vessel that comes off, it also 274 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: got the upper left lobe of her on. So now 275 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 1: she's got what's referred to as plural effusion. So she's 276 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: leaking out blood into her plural spaces, and essentially her 277 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: lungs are being compromised. Her ability to breathe, that's being compromised. 278 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 1: So it's in this. The more blood that comes out, 279 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: the more labor this becomes. Okay, I'm gonna pull a 280 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace on you. Yeah, what he just said was 281 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 1: her body cavity was filling up with blood, not her 282 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: lungs filling up with blood, and that was what was 283 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: keeping her from being able to breathe, not that her 284 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: lungs were full of blood. Correct. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And 285 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: this is uh, there's another fancy term nancy Nancy hates these. 286 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 1: When I throw them out, we call it exanguination. It's 287 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: a fancy term for bleeding out, and you bleed out internally, 288 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 1: And that's that's what's happening to her. Just imagine she's 289 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: kind of slipping into this kind of milky semiconscious state 290 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 1: because she's not what does our brain require oxygenated blood? 291 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:05,920 Speaker 1: But you've clipped a order which is just pumping out 292 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 1: huge volume of blood, even the smallest little nick because 293 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: of all of that pressure that's involved when this is 294 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 1: going on, So the chest cavity is filling up blood, 295 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: she's bleeding out of her what did we say, her liver? Right, 296 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 1: what's happening with what's happening with the brain all this time? 297 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: Becoming disoriented, just kind of slipping off into unconstantly. But 298 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 1: you know, the thing about it is is that there 299 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 1: would have been such a level of excruciating pain with 300 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 1: all of these insults that she has sustained all of 301 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,159 Speaker 1: these injuries, You really think, how did how was she 302 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 1: capable when her BP is dropping the level of oxygen 303 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: eated blood and her body is dropping, how was she 304 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 1: able to go ahead and facilitate all of this It's striking, 305 00:17:52,200 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 1: isn't it. One of the other things I want to 306 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: talk about in the kitchen before we go on and 307 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:17,159 Speaker 1: talk about some really interesting things with those stab wounds 308 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 1: is the fact that when the police looked at her body, 309 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 1: there was a line of blood. Okay, and as Joe's 310 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 1: been describing, she's sitting up, So you would think that 311 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 1: that line of blood on her face would be like this, 312 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 1: It's not. It's horizontal. So I don't know about laws 313 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 1: of gravity much, Joe, you can take over here, but 314 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: it really not plausible that that if she was in 315 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 1: this position, that she has this kind of blood bline. Yeah, 316 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: you've got blood that's emanating from the external ear canal here, 317 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:00,479 Speaker 1: and it's It gives us pause to think as an 318 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: investigator when you show up at a scene and you 319 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 1: see blood streaked in the opposite direction in which the 320 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: body is observed or appreciated at that point in time, 321 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,920 Speaker 1: it gives us possive think, well, was she capable of 322 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 1: moving or did somebody move her body after death and 323 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 1: the orientation of the blood and the original flow of 324 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:27,439 Speaker 1: the blood was compromised, So it presents in a different 325 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 1: a different viewpoint when you take a look at it, 326 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 1: and you think you can't explain when you look at it, 327 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 1: but you think this has to be explained because, as 328 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: we all know, and I can confirm this, I've been 329 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,440 Speaker 1: around a lot of dead bodies. Dead bodies don't just 330 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,160 Speaker 1: get up and move themselves. So you have to ask 331 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:45,119 Speaker 1: the question, was she still alive at that point? Was 332 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 1: she in some kind of perimortem state? That's that that 333 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 1: moment between anti mortem and post mortem where you're in 334 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 1: the throes of death. But what she have still have 335 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:58,640 Speaker 1: had the ability to move around at that point in time. 336 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 1: I've seen people thrash around it scenes. I've seen people 337 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: bathed in blood as a result of gunshot wounds, multiple 338 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: gunshot wounds. But with her, there's none of that. You 339 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 1: don't have like the super saturated scene here, it's absent 340 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:14,360 Speaker 1: some things. But here's the other point of that. If 341 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,400 Speaker 1: she had still still been able to move, which means 342 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 1: her heart would have still been pumping, which means this 343 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 1: blood would still be flowing, so that when she set up, 344 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:28,160 Speaker 1: if she had been lying down, then this blood should 345 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:30,639 Speaker 1: have not been dry and would have ran down the 346 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 1: side of her. It would have ran down the side 347 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 1: of her face or maybe depend upon how she's oriented 348 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: down to the back of her head. So you can 349 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 1: only speculate at that point in time as to what 350 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:45,680 Speaker 1: may have taken place in that kind of uh nebulous 351 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,680 Speaker 1: moment that no one can seem to peg down here, 352 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 1: and the investigators were never able to actually peg down 353 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: that at the scene and do a sufficient job of explaining. 354 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:58,120 Speaker 1: And the only sign at the scene of any kind 355 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: of fourth entry that it's taking place was And keep 356 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 1: in mind, this is on the sixth floor of an 357 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:07,359 Speaker 1: apartment building in Philly. There's snow on the ground outside. 358 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 1: A matter of fact, there's just been a snowstorm, and 359 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: no balconies and no balcony. There's like a window that 360 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: you can look out and kind of it's not even 361 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 1: a Juliette balcony. There's like an area where you can 362 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: kind of hold on and look down. There's no footprints 363 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 1: and the snow down below. So whoever gained access to 364 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 1: this apartment came through the door. One entry way, yeah, 365 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,160 Speaker 1: and there's one entry way in this environment. There's nothing stolen, 366 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 1: there's no signs of struggle. We don't have broken furniture, 367 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,119 Speaker 1: all of the valuables where their keys or their pocketbook, 368 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: as their money is there, everything is there. There's no 369 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:45,360 Speaker 1: indication that there was anything the farious relative to property 370 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 1: theft that was going on here. So let's talk about 371 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:53,199 Speaker 1: the elephant in the room, the stab wounds. We certainly 372 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,120 Speaker 1: want to address the whether or not this one major 373 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:58,880 Speaker 1: stab wound in her neck was done before she died 374 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,359 Speaker 1: or after she died. The thing that keeps getting me 375 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,879 Speaker 1: as we talk about this case is the fact is 376 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:10,359 Speaker 1: if you look, I can barely reach around to the 377 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 1: back of my head. How do you stab yourself in 378 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:18,719 Speaker 1: the back? At number one, some of these injuries were upward. 379 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:23,719 Speaker 1: They were not like you're holding a knife and stabbing 380 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:29,200 Speaker 1: yourself in this manner. Some of them are done upwards. 381 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,359 Speaker 1: How long does your arm have to be to be 382 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:37,400 Speaker 1: able to do this? And how flexible I couldn't do it? Well, 383 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 1: here's here's here's the key to this. And when you 384 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 1: review the autopsy report, um the forensic pathologists they never 385 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: measured her arms. And one of the things that we 386 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 1: do at autopsy is that you you do a measurement 387 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 1: from essentially a shoulder to the a c F sand 388 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 1: cupital fassa right here in the end of your arm. 389 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 1: Then you do a measurement from the shoulder to the wrist, 390 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 1: from the shoulder to the fingertips. Now, wouldn't you guys 391 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 1: think that if you're talking about somebody that had self 392 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: inflicted over twenty stab lines, that you would have arm measurements, 393 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 1: you would know what the dominant hand was. None of 394 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,680 Speaker 1: this stuff comes up at autopsy. It's never measured, it's 395 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: never examined. I want everybody to extend your dominant hand. 396 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 1: What's your dominant hand? Stick it out and try to 397 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 1: reach over your shoulder and self and just a police 398 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 1: This is horrible, but just imagine make the stabbing motion 399 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: and think about holding an eight inch blade and trying 400 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 1: to inflict down your spine your shoulder blades and then 401 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,119 Speaker 1: a couple of really deep injuries into the back of 402 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 1: the neck that actually communicate with the spinal column. How 403 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 1: is that possible? How can you actually do that? And 404 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 1: and then you know the thing about the thing about 405 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 1: the dead after they have left the autopsy room, after 406 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:59,439 Speaker 1: the funeral home has come and picked them up, Elvis 407 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 1: has left the building. We're in Vegas, right, Elvis has 408 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:04,159 Speaker 1: left the building. At that point in time, either the 409 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: body is going to be embalmed and buried. You can 410 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 1: examine the body again, or the body has been cremated. 411 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 1: Even worse, you can't go back and kind of retroactively 412 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:16,120 Speaker 1: take a look at this. And this is a big 413 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 1: miss in this case. It is a plus um with 414 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: Ellen's religious beliefs. Her body was handled in death very quickly, 415 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,440 Speaker 1: very very quickly. Um uh. Ellen's family is Jewish, and 416 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: so one of the tenants um and it varies. I've 417 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,159 Speaker 1: worked in many cases involving individuals that that were Jewish 418 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 1: and the ideas to have the body buried before sunset, 419 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 1: and so everything has to happen very very quickly in 420 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 1: cases like this, and so that compromises your ability in 421 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: order to glean as much information as you can and 422 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 1: collect as much evidence as you can. This idea that 423 00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:00,639 Speaker 1: the necks wound that would have severed her spawn her 424 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: spinal cord, we have expert testimony that this happened after 425 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 1: she died postmortem. Yeah, there was a there was kind 426 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: of a slip of the lip when the family began 427 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: to depose people. In this case, they had an associate 428 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 1: medical examiner that worked for the same autopsy for the 429 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 1: same medical examiner's office that had actually done the autopsy, 430 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: and she just happened to say, well, in my opinion, 431 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 1: this autopsy, this insult that she had sustained to her 432 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 1: spinal cord. That's a post mortem injury. There's no focal 433 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 1: areas of hemorrhage. And it's one of those moments in 434 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 1: time where I think that probably they wanted to have 435 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: you ever done something in your life where you feel like, wow, 436 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: I wish I could get that back just for a second. 437 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:48,679 Speaker 1: I think that in this case they wish that they 438 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: had gone back and been able to grab that. But 439 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: it's out there, it's floating about. And this isn't just 440 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:58,639 Speaker 1: some kind of random physician. This is a board certified 441 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: forensic pathologist. It made this determination that actually said that 442 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: this is a postmorm insalt that she has sustained. So 443 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: again you're left to have to explain, to have to 444 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 1: explain how does this young woman sustain these types of 445 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:17,440 Speaker 1: injuries and how do they happen without any manifestation of 446 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: hemorrhage in this particular area. And at the end of 447 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,360 Speaker 1: the day, it's kind of chilling to boot. I think 448 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 1: Dr cyril Weck and another physician got involved and began 449 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:33,439 Speaker 1: to examine the reports, everything that was left behind, and um, 450 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 1: one physician it wasn't Dr Weck, but one well Dr Weck. 451 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: He said that, look, he said, out of all the 452 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 1: cases that I've handled, this is inconsistent with a suicide. 453 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 1: You just in Dr Wegg, God blessed him. He's handled 454 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 1: more more cases than anybody. Um. This other physician that 455 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 1: looked at it also made made an interesting point as well. 456 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 1: Said in reviewing the autopsy images and the reports, he 457 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:02,200 Speaker 1: noted that there were focal areas of hemorrhage on the 458 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:06,160 Speaker 1: neck and what he believed was actually a fingernail mark 459 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 1: on the neck, which is very which is very unique. 460 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 1: If you, if you will take your fingers most people 461 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 1: don't ask you to do this and look down the 462 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: long axis of your fingernail. People talk about scratch marks 463 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 1: on bodies. I'm gonna give you a real quick tutorial here. 464 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 1: You look at the tips of your fingers and you 465 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 1: see how they're crescent shaped like this, so that when 466 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 1: there is an impression that is made, save for a 467 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,160 Speaker 1: contact with a fingerprint mark, it's gonna leave a crescent 468 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,399 Speaker 1: shape in that area. Now, in addition to that, if 469 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 1: there is a fight going on. Um I equate it 470 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,640 Speaker 1: to a plow running over an unplowed field. You'll get 471 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: kind of the spurrowing that takes place where you look 472 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,199 Speaker 1: and you'll see these so called scratch marks. That's one 473 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 1: of the reasons why at autopsy only decease we do 474 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,440 Speaker 1: nail trimmings, We do nail scrapings, and then we do 475 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 1: nail trimmings and all that stuff can go in and 476 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,399 Speaker 1: be examined for skin and any kind of DNA. But 477 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 1: you know, I think that it would have been very, 478 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: very important at that point in time that anybody that 479 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 1: had had contact with Ellen's body, anybody, anybody in the 480 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:15,160 Speaker 1: immediate circle, should have looked at their fingernails. You should 481 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,199 Speaker 1: have looked at their hands to see if there were 482 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 1: any kind of defensive wounds on any potential perpetrators here. 483 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 1: And to that point, I don't I don't know that 484 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 1: that's ever been done. What about any slice marks on 485 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 1: her hand, because if she is stabbing herself, you know, 486 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 1: the knife's gonna get slippery, and it's possible as you 487 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 1: are stabbing, the knife slips on the on the handle 488 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 1: and she might have cut herself. Were there any of that, No, 489 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 1: you can't appreciate that. But there was one other thing 490 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 1: that they did find, and that was on the upper arm. 491 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: There were fresh contusions there as well. Yeah, yes, Truss, Yes, 492 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 1: you're right. And one of the things we do, one 493 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 1: of the things we do with contusions, and this is 494 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 1: very important for any of you guys that all of 495 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 1: like child abuse investigations. One of the things that my 496 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 1: colleagues in that field do. We do things called aging 497 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 1: a bruises. And everybody's had a bruise. If it's red 498 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 1: and swollen, you know, that's kind of recent. It goes 499 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: to that kind of black color, blue color, and that's 500 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 1: two to three days out and then it turns that 501 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: slimy yellow then to green and then it resolves. And 502 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 1: there were injuries on her, but they were at different ages, Jackie, 503 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 1: she had insults on her arm, on her leg. That 504 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 1: we're at different ages. That again to well again and 505 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 1: they're grading these, they're looking at these and because of 506 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 1: the color the color changes, that means that the body 507 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 1: is healing all right, and you're gonna get these different 508 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 1: points of color along this healing continuum that it will change. 509 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: So when we go to grade these injuries. We look 510 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 1: at them and it can kind of give us a 511 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 1: timetable list of what's going on in that person's life 512 00:29:57,920 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: at that moment time. Most of the time, you know, 513 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 1: we talk about this in the context of small children. 514 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 1: You know, if they're sustaining abuse, how long has this 515 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 1: been going on? They've got various healing injuries. Contusions, bruises 516 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: are one of the things that we look at, and 517 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 1: with her, you had various various injuries that were consistent 518 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 1: with having been going on for a long time. The 519 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 1: next question you have to ask is, well, you automatically 520 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: don't default to homicide. You think, well, did she have 521 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 1: problems with her gate, was she bumping into anything? Was 522 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 1: she disoriented? Did she have a problem with alcohol? Did 523 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 1: any of this stuff happen that would compromise her ability 524 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: to ambulate anywhere, to make it around anywhere. There's no 525 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 1: indication about the other thing that interests me, And there's 526 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 1: just so much. I just I'm absorbed by this as 527 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 1: if I stubbed my toe. It's something that's simple. I 528 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 1: am out for the count. It is so painful. You 529 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,719 Speaker 1: gotta sit on the bed, you gotta do something right. 530 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 1: You hit your knee, you hit your elbow, your funny bone, 531 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 1: and you are down. How painful did it have to 532 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: be to be stabbed this many times for one and 533 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 1: after one? Wouldn't you stop because it's just part But yeah, 534 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, I think I don't want 535 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 1: to say a gentleman's name, but the individual that had 536 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 1: noted the insults on the on the on the neck, 537 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,960 Speaker 1: he is also a neuropathologist, which means he studies the brain. 538 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 1: He has an understanding of pain centers and all this, 539 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 1: and he started talking about the level of pain that 540 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 1: Ellen would have been enduring as a result of these 541 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 1: individual little insults on her body, that it would almost 542 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 1: have been intolerable. And so when you, you know, you 543 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 1: begin to think about this, how much pain could you stand? 544 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: You talked about striking your toes not at all, or 545 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 1: hitting your funny bone. There nothing funny about it, right, 546 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 1: And so you begin to hit all of these areas 547 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 1: and everything. The pain would be so very intense that 548 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 1: you you take this out to this point where you 549 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 1: have sustained all of these injuries, how is it that 550 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 1: how is it that she could tolerate that level of 551 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 1: pain and not to mention the spinal cord. Yeah, because 552 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: that's been compromised as well. There's one other vital piece 553 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 1: of evidence in this room that we can talk about 554 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 1: that's not got anything to do with the body, and 555 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 1: that's the door. I don't know if your rooms have 556 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 1: these locks on them here, but Ellen's door had a 557 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 1: safety catch on it. You know, it looks like a 558 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 1: v It's got a little knob and her door when 559 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 1: her boyfriend who she was living with, he went downstairs 560 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 1: to work out. When he came back, started banging on 561 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 1: the door because he couldn't get in because this lock 562 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 1: was engaged. He started calling, he started texting because he 563 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 1: couldn't get in the door. In the end he said 564 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: he had to break the door down. And I know 565 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 1: that you have just done a great re enactment, Joe, 566 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: trying to recreate what happened with this door. Can it 567 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 1: be done? Could you in essence knocked down this solid 568 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 1: front door with that kind of a lock on it? No, 569 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 1: and not have it intact? And everybody knows the type 570 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 1: of lock here. If any of you guys I don't 571 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 1: know about Paris, I'm staying in Bolly's my room, and 572 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 1: Bolly's has got a gate lock. It's just swings, you know. 573 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 1: I mean, everybody's ever stayed in a hotel, you know 574 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 1: these things. If if you're going to force your way 575 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 1: through that door, the anchor in and of itself, either 576 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 1: how it's anchored into the door or how the gate 577 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 1: is anchored into the frame, the thing would have splintered. 578 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 1: It would have absolutely splintered. The contact points there, that's 579 00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 1: not what happened. Has slightly pulled away, slightly pulled away, 580 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 1: and there's evidence of that at the at the scene. 581 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 1: But the ability to actually knock this thing in and 582 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 1: not pull it out of frame, and even if you 583 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 1: open it enough, I mean, how many of you guys 584 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 1: have ever tried to open the door with the gate 585 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 1: lock in place and you can kind of peer through it, 586 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 1: you know, like this, you can't squeeze through it. I 587 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 1: certainly couldn't squeeze through it. There's no way, there's no 588 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 1: way you can get access to it. So that leaves us, 589 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 1: you know, thinking, well, how has this thing still remained 590 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:30,759 Speaker 1: this intact and didn't splinter into a thousand pieces? If 591 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 1: what he is saying is accurate. Does anybody have any 592 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,320 Speaker 1: questions for Joe Um when my children were little, and 593 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,440 Speaker 1: we used to do our time share at Park City, Utah. 594 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 1: They had those kind of latches on the door and 595 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:43,839 Speaker 1: we would have two rooms together and then the kids, 596 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,359 Speaker 1: the kids would get in the other room, shut the door, 597 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 1: and then that room was locked just like that with 598 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,959 Speaker 1: that kind of lock. That Marriott did have a tool 599 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,239 Speaker 1: that could come in, push it open, undo it with 600 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,279 Speaker 1: doing no damage at all, and open the door really quickly. Well, 601 00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:00,160 Speaker 1: there there has been damage to this door. Again, the 602 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 1: the anyway it can be done without kicking the door 603 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:07,320 Speaker 1: in where it was anchored in has been splintered away, 604 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 1: but it wasn't splintered away to the point where it 605 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 1: had destroyed the door. I think that it would require 606 00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: a special tool. I know there are any number of 607 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,440 Speaker 1: people that have tried to really re enact this case 608 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 1: using dental floss, uh, sewing thread and also rubber bands. 609 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 1: And there's one guy that used to I think he 610 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,239 Speaker 1: was like a professional thief, and he demonstrated how to 611 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 1: get into one of these things defeat the lock with 612 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,799 Speaker 1: a rubber band. So I don't know, Yes, my um, 613 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,759 Speaker 1: you talked about the blood on her cheek moved. Did 614 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,840 Speaker 1: they ever check where the lividity went in her body 615 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,400 Speaker 1: if she had been moved that way. Yeah, that's an 616 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 1: excellent question. One of the things we look for is 617 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 1: the settling the blood. This is called postmormal ovidity. It 618 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 1: it gravity grabs blood, it pulls it to the lowest point. 619 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 1: Her lividity pattern was consistent with the position that she 620 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 1: was seated in. It was dependent on the on her 621 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 1: back side. Yes, ma'am, it's a good question. Anybody else 622 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,320 Speaker 1: did they ever determine her dominant her dominant hand or 623 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 1: the dominant hand hand of her boy, her fun They 624 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,839 Speaker 1: don't have that information. That hasn't been released. This lady 625 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,359 Speaker 1: had a question back here. I was just wondering, did 626 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: they ever look test for DNA under her fingernails to 627 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 1: see if that's an excellent question one of the things 628 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:26,719 Speaker 1: that they talked about. And they made a big deal 629 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:29,759 Speaker 1: out of this in the autopsy report. And again this 630 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,880 Speaker 1: is this is going back several years. This is before 631 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:36,680 Speaker 1: this is before the status of DNA that we have 632 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,239 Speaker 1: right now. But they made a big deal out of 633 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:43,520 Speaker 1: the fact that, um, they tested the knife and of 634 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,720 Speaker 1: course the knife is bathed in her blood. There's blood everywhere. 635 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,120 Speaker 1: But they said there's no other blood on the knife 636 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:56,160 Speaker 1: or nobody else's DNA. Okay, great glad to hear that. Uh. 637 00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,839 Speaker 1: Just because there is an absence of DNA on an 638 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:05,879 Speaker 1: instrument of death doesn't exclude anybody, because if you're well, 639 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 1: first off, if you had another person's blood I'm not 640 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,359 Speaker 1: talking about touch DNA, just talking about blood, you would 641 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:13,120 Speaker 1: have a commingling of the blood and they would be 642 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 1: able to see that. There's no evidence of that. And also, 643 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 1: contrary to popular opinion, when somebody wields a sharp force injury, 644 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 1: there is no guarantee that the perpetrator is necessarily going 645 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:28,640 Speaker 1: to injure themselves while using the nine, particularly if it's 646 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:31,440 Speaker 1: a dominant person that's on a that's up against a 647 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 1: small person. She only weighed like a hundred thirty pounds, 648 00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 1: She's not overwhelming in size. Anybody that could come in 649 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 1: and dominate her, they might not insult themselves, they might 650 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,920 Speaker 1: not cut themselves. So it's a red harry to say 651 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 1: that there was no one else's blood on the nine. 652 00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:54,840 Speaker 1: We get him. So, assuming that it is a possible homicide, 653 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:58,920 Speaker 1: have there been any other suspects that have been investigating? Oh? 654 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:00,400 Speaker 1: Not to the best of my knowledge, which I think 655 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 1: that as from a death investigator death investigation perspective, I 656 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,880 Speaker 1: want to know who lives in the building. Obviously, hopefully 657 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 1: they ran down all those leads. UM, there is no indication, 658 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,279 Speaker 1: you know, one of the one of my first as 659 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:16,920 Speaker 1: a death investigator, one of the first things I think, 660 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 1: if I have a woman that is brutalized like this, 661 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,160 Speaker 1: this is very intimate, I'm going to think that there's 662 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,759 Speaker 1: a sexual motivation, there's a relational motivation because this is 663 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:29,320 Speaker 1: a lot of anger. So, you know, back to the building, 664 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,600 Speaker 1: I'd want to know if there were any individuals that 665 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:33,839 Speaker 1: have been stalking her, wanting to know if any sex 666 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,600 Speaker 1: offenders lived in, any sex offenders with violent past, and 667 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:40,399 Speaker 1: I'm hoping that the Philadelphia Police Department ran nose, leaves, 668 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,200 Speaker 1: dound or explored all of that. That information has not 669 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,160 Speaker 1: been released though. Let me add something a very important 670 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:50,080 Speaker 1: point here. Please you can go on Facebook and do 671 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:52,880 Speaker 1: justice for Ellen if you're interested in helping out in 672 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:58,600 Speaker 1: this case, because they are trying. Her family have been 673 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:03,200 Speaker 1: working all of these years years to UM have this 674 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:09,840 Speaker 1: case changed from a suicide to undetermined. They can continue 675 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:16,759 Speaker 1: their investigation if it's classified as undetermined and so far 676 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:24,239 Speaker 1: three times it's gone before the appropriate authorities and it's 677 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:28,120 Speaker 1: still yet unchanged. Okay, guys, hey, thank you all for 678 00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:30,640 Speaker 1: listening to body Bags. I really appreciate it. Come business 679 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:34,440 Speaker 1: at our booth. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this has 680 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:38,239 Speaker 1: been body Bags. Y'all have fun. Okay, thank you so much, 681 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 1: thank you very much.