1 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:05,720 Speaker 1: As a baby of the eighties and child of the nineties, 2 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: If George Michael taught me anything it's that you gotta 3 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:11,399 Speaker 1: have faith. And that's the theme of this episode. Welcome 4 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: back to It's a Numbers Game with Ryan Grodski. On 5 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:17,119 Speaker 1: February twenty sixth, Pew Research, one of the premier think 6 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 1: tanks that looks at American life, put on their third 7 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:23,919 Speaker 1: Religious Landscape Study. This is a study conducted in two 8 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: thousand and seven, twenty fourteen, and last week that examines 9 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: how It's a massive study. It examines how Americans think 10 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: about religion in multitude of ways, everything from raising children 11 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 1: to praying to church attendance. It's over thirty six nine 12 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:42,519 Speaker 1: hundred people were part of the study. That's a massive, 13 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 1: massive study. So what it defined Between two thousand and 14 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: seven and twenty fourteen, these are the older studies. Christianity 15 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 1: and daily prayer decline substantially in this country, right, and 16 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: the number of people claiming to be part religiously unaffiliated 17 00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: climbed pretty dramatically. That trend continued all the way through 18 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: their smaller studies. They have small studies between these major years. 19 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: All in these smaller studies until twenty twenty. But and 20 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 1: here's your data for this episode. In two thousand and seven, 21 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: seventy eight percent of Americans reported being Christians. The number 22 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: fell to seventy one percent by twenty fourteen and declined 23 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 1: further to sixty two percent by twenty twenty. Likewise, number 24 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: of Americans who said they prayed daily went from fifty 25 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: eight percent in two thousand and seven to forty eight 26 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: percent in twenty twenty, a ten point drop. Americans have 27 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:32,040 Speaker 1: been getting more secular every day until twenty twenty, and 28 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:34,959 Speaker 1: that's when the really interesting part of this survey happened. 29 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:38,679 Speaker 1: Since twenty twenty, Christianitian America has remained stable and even 30 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: increased Among some segments of the population. The boomers, Zoomers, 31 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: and millennials are having a bit of a religious revival. 32 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: The number of people born between two thousand and two 33 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: thousand and six who reported to pray daily rose from 34 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 1: twenty percent to thirty percent. It's only ticked up slightly 35 00:01:57,760 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: from millennials born in the eighties and baby boomers in 36 00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: the fifties and sixties, but they all so a flight increase, 37 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 1: a noticeable increase. These are the generations that are most 38 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 1: likely to also see an increase in reporting that they 39 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 1: identify as Christians since twenty twenty. For Zoomers once again, 40 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: those born between two thousand and two thousand and six, 41 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 1: the numbers identifying as Christian went from forty five percent 42 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:21,799 Speaker 1: to fifty one percent. For millennials from the eighties, it's 43 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: going from fifty to two to fifty six percent, and 44 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: for older gen xers and young baby boomers going in 45 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: the sixties and fifties, the number one from seventy two 46 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: to seventy six percent. That's an average of a five 47 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: point increase in those three generations. And while that's not massive, 48 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: it's not like a thirty point increase. It's not this 49 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 1: you know, religious revival, it's in any like you know, 50 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 1: massive way, but it's a it's the first time in 51 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 1: almost twenty years that there's been any reversal or any 52 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 1: slowing down of mass secorism. That's worth noting. And while 53 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 1: young people are still far less Christian than their parents, 54 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: Zoomers went from being plurality agnostic in twenty twenty to 55 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 1: being majority Christian. So what happened in twenty twenty, Like, 56 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 1: why was that the thing? Why are did it spark 57 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,239 Speaker 1: the change. Some of my readers onlines that it was 58 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 1: because of immigration by President Biden. After all, did let 59 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: in millions and millions of people demographically change this country, 60 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: possibly permanently and unless we get the mass deportations, really 61 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: you know, kicking big time. But these millions of peoplend 62 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:23,639 Speaker 1: so maybe they changed the country, and that it's a 63 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: valid point. So I looked into it. The overall Christian 64 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: population America was sixty one percent white, thirteen percent Black, 65 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: eighteen percent Hispanic, and three percent Asian. Now look at 66 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: the overall composition of the US, which is fifty eight 67 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 1: percent white, twenty percent Hispanic, thirteen percent Black, and six 68 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: percent Asian. Basically, America's Christians look like the rest of America. 69 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: It's not overwhelmingly you know, Hispanic or overwhelmingly African. It's 70 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: it looks just like us. And I think people forget 71 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: that while America has grown more secular in the last 72 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: twenty years, so has the rest of the world, including 73 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: Latin America and even Africa. Like the image that we 74 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 1: have of like regions of Latin America where there's like 75 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: nine kids running around, you know, in a household, Crucifixes 76 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 1: in our lady of wild up statutes. That doesn't exist, 77 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: That doesn't exist anywhere, not in any big way. The 78 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 1: most of Latin America has a birth rate way below 79 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:19,159 Speaker 1: fertility level. Some parts of Latin America have a fertility 80 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:21,920 Speaker 1: oh you know, have fewer kids than we do in America. 81 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 1: So the study that the study is actually as They 82 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,160 Speaker 1: also found out that people born outside the United States 83 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: actually have a less religious affiliation than those born in 84 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 1: the United States, which does make sense when you remember 85 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 1: that Asians Asian immigrants are the least religious group of 86 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 1: people of any demographic in the United States. So if 87 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 1: it wasn't mass immigration that stopped the decline and create 88 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 1: a slight resurgence in Christianity of the last few years, 89 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:48,599 Speaker 1: what was it. Some analysts said it was COVID nineteen 90 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 1: that sparked maybe a slight religious change amongst some people. 91 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:53,600 Speaker 1: With a lot of free time and the lockdown, I 92 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: think people re examine their faith. But there's a bigger story, 93 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,600 Speaker 1: and that's the story of young men. Young men are 94 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: much more religious than they used to be. Religion was 95 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 1: something that women always did more often than men, and 96 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: that's true of the Silent generation, Baby Boomers, Gen xers Millennials, 97 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 1: but not much for Zoomers. Young men were basically as 98 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 1: religious as women for the very first time. Some sady 99 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: is actually besides the PUC, they have young men being 100 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: more religious than young women. Analysts like David Campbell, a 101 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:25,720 Speaker 1: political scientist from the University of Notre Dame. He says 102 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: that young men who have also become more likely to 103 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: support Donald Trump because of cultural values, are saying that 104 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:35,359 Speaker 1: they're more likely to identify as Christian. That there's an internet 105 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 1: personalities besides like the Joe Rogan's and the Barstow's sports 106 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: which are not religous at all, that have created this 107 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 1: cultural movement to sit there and say, you know, you 108 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 1: should at least identify as Christian because it's part of 109 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: our overall political values, are our moral values. You know, 110 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: people like Daily Wires hosts Michael Knowles, big big you 111 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 1: know podcast hosts. He talks about Catholic faith a lot. 112 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 1: Father Mike Schmitz who had a huge podcast called a 113 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 1: Bible in a Year and Catechism in a Year. There 114 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:08,359 Speaker 1: were big hits. He's a prominent person on the alternative media. 115 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: And then there's even like subculture interne people, people who 116 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: are not huge like those people are as far as 117 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 1: you know, podcast hosts go and Internet people Dasha and 118 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 1: Arika Sova. I'm probably just butchered her last name, but 119 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: Dasha from Red Scare and she was on the TV 120 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,159 Speaker 1: show Succession. She talks about her because a lot like 121 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: a lot a lot, and she has a lot of 122 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: women and young men and people who are maybe like 123 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: in more of the internet's subculture, but they are looking 124 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: and they're listening and they're talking about it. Is this 125 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:39,040 Speaker 1: part of a permanent change? Are we just going to 126 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: get a much more religious country? No, because zoomers are 127 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,160 Speaker 1: still way less religious than baby boomers are. So as 128 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 1: baby boomers die off and Zoomers go into adulthood, Christianity 129 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: will decrease as that time goes on. It's just a 130 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:55,359 Speaker 1: generational shift, but it's not bleeding the way that it 131 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 1: used to be. And maybe if the door's open to 132 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 1: some kind of revival, maybe that means something else will happen, 133 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: you know, because religion matters more than just people's personal 134 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 1: morals personal faith. There's entirely different life experiences that are 135 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 1: happening from people who are religious than those who are 136 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: not religious. Eighty two percent of people who are politically 137 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: conservative say they have some kind of religion, compared to 138 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: just thirty percent of liberals. Those who are religious are 139 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 1: also more likely to babies, They're more likely to boleance 140 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: it for charity. They're more likely to affiliate with other 141 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 1: religious organizations like schools like religious schools and private schools, 142 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: and homeschooling organizations. Think about this. Among thirty eight year 143 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: olds church going Mormons, seventy percent have children under the 144 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: age of eighteen. Compare that to thirty year old atheists. 145 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: Only thirty eight percent have children under eighteen, half as 146 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: many are experiencing parenthood Like this life altering part of 147 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: your life as an adult, being a parent is only 148 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: being experience, or is being twice as experience among religious 149 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 1: people as non religious people. And that will bleed into 150 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: our politics, It will bleed into our values, it will 151 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 1: bleed into our economy and a million other things. And 152 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 1: while sixty three percent of Republicans say that they believe 153 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 1: in God without a doubt, just thirty nine percent of 154 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 1: Democrats do so. Is politics fueling a religious revival, especially 155 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: among men? Or is religious inspiring a political conversion? To 156 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: talk to me about it. This week is Catherine Ruth Bacullich. 157 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 1: She's a professor of economics at Catholic University and the 158 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 1: author of the great book Hannah's Children. Catherine, Welcome to 159 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 1: a numbers game. 160 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 2: Thanks Catherine. 161 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: In your book hannash Children, which I am in the 162 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: middle of reading, it's a great book, by the way, 163 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 1: you interviewed dozens of college educated women who had five 164 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 1: or more children, basically demographic outliers, and they all had 165 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 1: college educations. That's the important equation. They had college educations, 166 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: and they had lots of kids, and you know, having 167 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:56,840 Speaker 1: large families is a very obvious in the book. In 168 00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:59,079 Speaker 1: the book, they often talk about their religion, all these 169 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 1: women and how are and plays an important part in 170 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 1: their decision to have children. We've talked a lot about 171 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: religion earlier in the show and the and the change 172 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 1: in how people act with religion, how religion is changing, 173 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 1: and that there's been this small increase in number of 174 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: young people saying that they are religious that aside from 175 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 1: just marriage or is it just marriage and chowering? Is 176 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:22,079 Speaker 1: there another thing that religion plays a part in? 177 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 3: Probably education? 178 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: Really? 179 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 2: Yeah? 180 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean meaning we're seeing a real shift. Let's 181 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 3: just say, explosive rise in homeschooling, Christian schooling, you know, 182 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:36,679 Speaker 3: those kinds of things. I think that's probably something to 183 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 3: keep around. I haven't dug into the data on this. 184 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 3: I'm not actually sure I've seen any, but I think, 185 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 3: you know, if we were to break down the trends 186 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 3: and like the rise of homeschooling, you know, we're seeing 187 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 3: that motivated by a lot a lot of Christian. 188 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 2: Groups, a lot Jewish groups. So right, so I think 189 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 2: it's there. 190 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:52,679 Speaker 3: But of course education, I'd say, like in terms of 191 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:55,199 Speaker 3: marriage and family, it's it's part of the transmission of values. 192 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 3: So it's it's probably part of this story of this 193 00:09:57,880 --> 00:09:59,560 Speaker 3: political interaction. 194 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 1: The Pew study was interesting because there was the number 195 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 1: of people who are zoomers right generations see people worn 196 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: two thousand and two thousand and six who are port 197 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:13,680 Speaker 1: being Christian is up from twenty twenty. But they are 198 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 1: not praying daily increasing there, but they're identifying as Christian, 199 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: Like they're over there Christian. What is it? Like they're 200 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 1: they're consumptly Christian. The door is open. They're kind of 201 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 1: like walking through. Yeah, is being culturally Christian just a 202 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 1: big part of it? Like to say, I'm not down 203 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 1: with blocism, so therefore christian. 204 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 3: Maybe, I think that's part of it. Another piece of 205 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 3: it is probably what we would call like immunity, So 206 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 3: like they're because they're Christian or the identify as Christian 207 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 3: if some of like other identity group that keeps them 208 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 3: immune from these trends or gives them like a safe 209 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 3: space to be I kind of wonder looking at your. 210 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 2: Point about like these are zoomers, they're certainty. 211 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 3: I mean like if they're zumors, they're born in like 212 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 3: two thousand, right, that means probably a lot of them 213 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 3: haven't started their families yet. Yeah, And we know in 214 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 3: terms of religious trends on behavior that actually a time 215 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 3: when sort of cultural religious people become like actual religious 216 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 3: people is when they have their first kid, see right right. 217 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 2: You have something to take to church. 218 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, and also if you go sit into a religious school, 219 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 1: that's a big part of it as well. Yeah, you're 220 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: listening to It's a numbers game with Ryan Gerdosky. We'll 221 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 1: be right back after this message. There's a big question 222 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:29,080 Speaker 1: mark of like why did Christianity stop declining? Yes, part 223 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:31,440 Speaker 1: of it could be it happens like twenty twenty is 224 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: like the figurehead. And there's a lot that happens in 225 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: twenty twenty, right, there's the racial riots, there's the wokeism. 226 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,079 Speaker 1: There's also COVID, and there are a lot of people 227 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:44,199 Speaker 1: who turned to podcasters. You know was a father, Mike Schmidt. 228 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 2: As his famous that's true. Yeah, you have, you. 229 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 1: Know, Michael Knowles, you have even like sub texts of people. 230 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 1: What do you think it could be? You're college kids 231 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 1: a lot. 232 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, No, that's right. I was going to say, I mean, 233 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 3: I think the alternative media has been a huge piece 234 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 3: of that. 235 00:11:57,800 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. 236 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 3: My sons are probably my sons who are exact that 237 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 3: age range, and two of them are married. I mean, 238 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,320 Speaker 3: they listen to more podcasts than I do, and they're 239 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:07,680 Speaker 3: probably like politically a little bit to the right of me, 240 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:09,320 Speaker 3: you know which, and I'm like to the right of 241 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 3: most people, but my sons are definitely probably to the 242 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 3: right of me. Jordan Peterson had a big impact, and 243 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 3: of course he's like you know, and he talks about 244 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 3: God in religion all the time, even if he's not 245 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 3: a member of an organized religion. 246 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 2: Is oh is he I best? 247 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 1: Like, I think I'm not a huge follower, but I 248 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 1: think like his wife was like dying, she had a miraculous. 249 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 3: His wife converted, converted, I mean, and obviously he talks 250 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 3: about God all the time. And so if you were, 251 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 3: if you were, if you were like a kid growing 252 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,559 Speaker 3: up in a religious family and looking for sort of 253 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 3: permission to be sort of politically religious or to express 254 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 3: yourself or identify as a Christian, Peterson would certainly have 255 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 3: been something that would support that. Yeah, I mean, and 256 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 3: actually just I'm thinking of another detail from my book 257 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 3: that I forgot to mention earlier. I tell that story 258 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 3: like in the second chapter of this Family, I walked 259 00:12:58,160 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 3: into their house. They lived in New England. It's a 260 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:02,680 Speaker 3: super democratic area. There's like a Jewish family with a 261 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 3: bunch of kids, and the dad greets me with a 262 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 3: maga hat on, you know, and I. 263 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 1: Was like, I read part of your book. 264 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and it's like. 265 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 3: You know, you go look at the you go look 266 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 3: at those correlations, and there's there's obviously something going on 267 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 3: that I think it'll crystallize and the number is better 268 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 3: in the next decade. But like something we're seeing these 269 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 3: red states, I have more marriage and more family, more 270 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 3: traditional family behaviors, I'm assuming, although I don't have a 271 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 3: good chart of it, but I think the religious behavior 272 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 3: is stronger there as well. 273 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean yes, I think like the highest states 274 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 1: for fertility, off the top of my head is like 275 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 1: Utah is always usually number one because the LDS like 276 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: things still kind of even if the Mormons don't have 277 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: as many kids they used to, they're still higher than 278 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:47,199 Speaker 1: the average. And then it's like Nebraska, Kansas sometimes the. 279 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 2: Dakota, Dakota's yeah, yeah. 280 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:52,559 Speaker 1: The Plain States and Utah really outstretched the rest. 281 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 3: Of the yeah. 282 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 2: True. 283 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 3: Yeah. The other thing about like young people becoming more religious, 284 00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 3: and I'm thinking we may want to think about too, 285 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 3: is like religious college. There's this kind of story of 286 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 3: these kind of scrappy religious colleges, many of which stayed 287 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 3: open during COVID. And we've also got the homeschoolers coming 288 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:11,439 Speaker 3: of age. I mean, that big shift, that kind of 289 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:13,959 Speaker 3: growth in homeschoolers, which was like, you know, it's just 290 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 3: like a classic tipping point. You'd say, well, people were 291 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 3: out there homeschooling their kids in the nineties when I 292 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 3: hadn't even heard of homeschooling. 293 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 2: They were out there. 294 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 3: Doing this, and then those kids had kids, and like, 295 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 3: are we just starting to see a sort of tipping 296 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 3: point of all those homeschoolers right, community. 297 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: People said, like, I mean, my followers on Twitter were 298 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 1: saying to me, well, obviously this uptacking religion is all 299 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 1: because of immigration, Biden, let all these people. 300 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 2: In No, I don't think so. 301 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: Well. I looked it up the numbers and it's basically 302 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 1: the same exact demographic breakdown as America, So there's no 303 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 1: big change. And also I think that people forget that, 304 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: like Latin America is much less religious than it used 305 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: to be. People. Yeah, Westrola is a bunch of you know, 306 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 1: women with our lead to Guadalupe statues with nine children 307 00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: running around, and that's not the way it is and 308 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: has hasn't been for quite sometimes. 309 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, a lot of Pentecostalism, Yeah, a. 310 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 1: Lot of just secular people who don't have kids anymore. 311 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 1: Mexico as well below the birth rate. Most of Latin 312 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: America is way below the earth. So I think that 313 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 1: that says a lot about who is If everything in 314 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: culture and everything in society it's as easy as possible 315 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 1: to be secular, and pop culture more or less mocks 316 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 1: religion more often than it celebrates it. What would make 317 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 1: a young person or a younger person gravitate towards faith? 318 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 3: Now? 319 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 1: Is it just saying, hey, look I'm Christian, therefore I'm 320 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 1: not woke or is it something deeper going on? A 321 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: lot of young people, a lot of like zoomers especially, 322 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 1: really crave an authentic relationship with something all the time. 323 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 1: They're always searching authenticity. Do you see that? Do you 324 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 1: think that? 325 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, yeah, I mean certainly in my time as 326 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 3: a college teacher kind of watching over the last ten years, 327 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 3: I mean, I would say I'm definitely seeing greater identification 328 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 3: with religiosity as a form of identity, but definitely political. 329 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 3: These are a lot of the same young men and 330 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 3: women that are part of the MAGA movement. The other 331 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 3: thing I kind of want to mention is like, and 332 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 3: I don't even know have I don't have a name 333 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 3: for it, but it seems to go along with this, 334 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 3: which is kind of these more traditional or sort of 335 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 3: throwback forms of religion which do seem sort of like 336 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 3: they're not doing what like we need to be more 337 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 3: granular when we talk about religion rates sort of like 338 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 3: we know what's happening with the sort of mainline Protestant churches. 339 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 3: They're all like super woke and progressive, right, and then 340 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 3: you know. 341 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 1: You got are all like they have like you know, 342 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 1: Jesus was like a black trans feminist. Like that's the 343 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: sign that they have outside. 344 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 3: Exactly, and you're like, that's not going to be the 345 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 3: future of your church as it, you know. But I 346 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 3: would say, like in my church and the Catholic Church, 347 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 3: you know that you've got these sort of I mean 348 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 3: so called trad Catholics. That wasn't even a name tech 349 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 3: we didn't have a name for that ten years ago. 350 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 3: It was like, oh, there seems to be like Latin 351 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 3: Mass people. But actually it's much bigger what people call 352 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 3: trad Catholic stuff today. It's a lot bigger than Latin 353 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 3: Mass stuff. It's like young people that want to veil 354 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 3: and they want like older they smell them bets Catholicism. 355 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 3: They want to sort of like that, and that seems 356 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 3: to be broad. It seems like there's a lot of Orthodoxy. 357 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,640 Speaker 3: I know literally no people older than zoomers that are 358 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 3: like becoming Orthodox Christians. 359 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 2: I know Orthodox Christians too, that's like all new. 360 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I know, well, there's two things that come 361 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: to mind. One is that people have this perception, like 362 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:26,640 Speaker 1: the Obama perception that religions for lower income people who 363 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 1: cling to their guns and their bibles, when in fact 364 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:32,479 Speaker 1: religious church attendance is higher among college educated people than 365 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:35,880 Speaker 1: non college educated religion is really, if you're an active 366 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 1: participant in a church a physical building, you are more 367 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 1: likely to be middle class or upper middle class. It 368 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 1: is a bougie thing to belong to religion. Really, why 369 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 1: do you think that is? Is religion something that you 370 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:51,160 Speaker 1: just have to have a lot of money in time 371 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:53,879 Speaker 1: to sit there and be a participant in because the 372 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 1: cultural forces of that would make someone go to church 373 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: aren't there anymore. 374 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I definitely think that. I mean, religion is 375 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 3: always engaged the idea of the intellectual virtue. I mean, 376 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 3: religion has always been a part of kind of the 377 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 3: academic or the intellectual sphere. There are religious groups that 378 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 3: are popping up and protected on all all the college campuses. 379 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:15,439 Speaker 3: I mean, this is another piece of this right, Like, 380 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 3: compared to when I was a student, it's much easier 381 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 3: to be part of a religious group on a secular 382 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:22,920 Speaker 3: campus than it used to be. Like when I was 383 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 3: a student, was like you couldn't even find other Christians. 384 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 3: You'd look around. I went to Harvard for grad school 385 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 3: upin undergrad deeply secular places, very very secular places, not. 386 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: A community college robout like myself. 387 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 3: But you know, no, I honestly like, at this point, 388 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 3: I'm like, despite having gone to ivy like schools, I'm 389 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:44,679 Speaker 3: still like a decent person. That's like, it's almost an 390 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 3: embarrassing thing on my vita at this point. But I mean, 391 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:48,920 Speaker 3: for sure, like you would look around and be like, 392 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 3: those look like cheerful Asian students over there, they're probably Christian, 393 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 3: which is a funny sort of stereotype, but it was 394 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:57,680 Speaker 3: it was kind of true at the time, and you'd 395 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 3: have to guess looking at people, like maybe they're Christian 396 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 3: and maybe they're religious. There was no like chat groups, 397 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 3: there was no way to find people today like that's 398 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:07,880 Speaker 3: that's one of these things that's been enabled. So there's 399 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:09,239 Speaker 3: a lot of that. But I did want to get 400 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 3: to that point that I think religion, the great religions 401 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 3: of the world, have always been engaged with the kind 402 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:17,920 Speaker 3: of proposition about faith and reason. 403 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 2: And so I think it is kind of natural. 404 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 3: That that there we would see this reflected in the 405 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:28,119 Speaker 3: sort of educated classes. That's a complete answer to your question. 406 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 3: But you you reminded me of something else, Like I 407 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 3: know that ARC Forum was in London last week? Was 408 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,640 Speaker 3: it ARC? This like alliance? It's like Peterson's gig. It's 409 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 3: this alliance responsible sitisitions. There's all these people that want 410 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,159 Speaker 3: to protect Western civilization. I mean, I would think of 411 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 3: it as like a political cultural thing. It has nothing 412 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 3: officially to do with religion. But the first ARC forum 413 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 3: that they had, like eighteen months ago, one of the 414 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 3: speakers was like, so organized religion, it's important raise your 415 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 3: hand in this group if you belong to an organized 416 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,639 Speaker 3: religion unless you're just like Peterson, like spiritual, and you know, 417 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,200 Speaker 3: like the hands went up, And so there is some 418 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:05,879 Speaker 3: kind of story here about kind of whatever it is 419 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 3: that organized religion is providing in the wake of sort 420 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 3: of like the rest of it all fell apart, right, 421 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,439 Speaker 3: like the old belief that like liberal like whatever the 422 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 3: old consensus about like liberal institutions will save us, Like 423 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 3: we'll all just kind of march towards this happy religious, happy. 424 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 1: Cour It's like the neoliberalism will all have Donald's. 425 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 2: In every box. 426 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 3: Yes, that clearly fell apart, right, And yeah. 427 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 1: I think there's three different bosses to it. I think 428 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: that there is like the people who are motivated by influencers, 429 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 1: whether they be like the whole crisis King, you know, 430 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 1: I think this is what I'm signaling, or whether it 431 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: be like the trad wife movements on Instagram. You see 432 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:47,880 Speaker 1: those women who like they've got makeup and their milk 433 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 1: and cow and they have fourteen kids running around. 434 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:52,119 Speaker 2: And then you have they're millionaires. 435 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,880 Speaker 1: You're millionaires, right, They're just millionaires. 436 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 2: Models and millionaires, I know. 437 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 1: And then you have people who have real crave towards 438 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 1: towards authenticity where you I mean, I go to I've 439 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: gone to a lad of miss I'm Catholic too, so 440 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 1: I've gone a lot of mass several times in my life. 441 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:09,119 Speaker 1: There are a bunch of young people and they do 442 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:11,159 Speaker 1: tend to sit there within the veils. And then I 443 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 1: think the third bucket are people who are defenders of 444 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: Western civilization or just see that the culture is rotted, 445 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 1: so they sit there and say, like, look, the West 446 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: is worth defending, and it's not in the terms of 447 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: like the post World War two neoliberal philosophy, like the 448 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:30,199 Speaker 1: real West of what it means to be a West Journey. 449 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:32,640 Speaker 1: I think that's more of like like a sense Trump thing. 450 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:34,479 Speaker 3: Yeah, I was just going to say, like, when you 451 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 3: put that together, I'm thinking of like, you know, how 452 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,119 Speaker 3: appealing JD. Vance was to so many or is to 453 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 3: so many, like my students and so on, that kind 454 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 3: of like he's religious. He sort of rejects that old 455 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 3: liberal consensus, you know, right, I mean he's like, well, 456 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:52,360 Speaker 3: I don't know, like we're going to deal with western. 457 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:55,880 Speaker 2: North Carolina and their problems before we do other things. 458 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, right now, I worked for JD. And I think 459 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: JD I fill out a lot of you know things. 460 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 1: Where as a kid, I don't think he went to 461 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 1: church very often. They read the Bible a lot, but 462 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:06,959 Speaker 1: they didn't go to church. They weren't part of an 463 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:09,239 Speaker 1: organized religion, which is a story of a lot of 464 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: people in lower income communities. And that conversion towards being 465 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: a practicing Catholic came once he had college degree and money, 466 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 1: and it's and I think marriage to that story is 467 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:23,160 Speaker 1: something that is more common than people. Now, hey, we'll 468 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:29,120 Speaker 1: be right back after this. The last question I want 469 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 1: to get to you, and you've written about this for 470 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: Hannah's Children, which is a really good book. I want 471 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,639 Speaker 1: to emphasize that to my listeners. You bring up a 472 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 1: lot of times these women who have a lot of kids, 473 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 1: but we are seeing a big gender divide when it 474 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 1: comes to women and men. Women are more likely to 475 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 1: leave faith than not for the first time. Young men 476 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,399 Speaker 1: are more likely to belong to a church than young women. 477 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 1: What is going on with young women? I hate to 478 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 1: say it, but yeah. 479 00:22:55,960 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 3: That's great, Like, don't give me an easy question to answered. Man, 480 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,680 Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean, I'm inclined a little bit 481 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 3: towards the direction of the thesis that you know, people 482 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:11,439 Speaker 3: people like Alibastucky talk about where you know, just you know, 483 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 3: as a kind of a class of explanations. I mean, 484 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 3: to some extent other commentators where you know, you look 485 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,680 Speaker 3: at young women who are kind of they are other focused. 486 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 3: They're empathetic, they want to do good, they want to 487 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 3: help people. 488 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:22,919 Speaker 2: That's all. 489 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:26,120 Speaker 3: We kind of associate that with with a female charism, 490 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,159 Speaker 3: if you will, And and they just are applying it 491 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,399 Speaker 3: to the world, right, you know, like they want to 492 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,160 Speaker 3: take care of stuff and mother things, but they want 493 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,360 Speaker 3: to do that, you know, you know, so they kind 494 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 3: of take like, don't be nice, and then they sort 495 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 3: of spread that out. So it's like, I mean, the 496 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 3: thesis is it's like a misapplication of your desire to 497 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 3: take care of stuff. 498 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:48,679 Speaker 1: Is it also like a girl boss thing of like 499 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:52,440 Speaker 1: rejecting things that seem oppressive? Is that because the religions 500 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:53,640 Speaker 1: you know, allegedly oppressed. 501 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, So I don't know, I don't know where we 502 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,239 Speaker 3: are with the girl boss stuff. It seems like that 503 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,640 Speaker 3: bubbles burst a little bit. I think that women don't 504 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:02,679 Speaker 3: like to be mean, and so they don't associate with 505 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,199 Speaker 3: politics that seems mean, and they don't associate with religion 506 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,680 Speaker 3: that seems mean, right, And I think that's. 507 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 2: Like a really big point. That's a really way to 508 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 2: put it. Yeah. 509 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's why traditional things or like Republican politics 510 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:15,360 Speaker 1: would seem too mean. 511 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 3: For Republican politics seems evil. And you know, certain kinds 512 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 3: of traditional religion seems kind of mean too, right, Like 513 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,399 Speaker 3: you don't accept all that love is love, and so 514 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 3: it looks kind of mean. That's the explanation out favor. 515 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 3: But we are seeing too, like once women get married 516 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 3: and have kids, like they tend to move way closer 517 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,160 Speaker 3: to their to the to the men in the same 518 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:34,879 Speaker 3: age range. 519 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 1: I think what you could see is this really different 520 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 1: two different americas that people live in. You know, I 521 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 1: said earlier in the show that if you look at 522 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:49,119 Speaker 1: like Mormons, for example, church going Mormons between eighteen and 523 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 1: forty seventy percent have kids, and if you look at 524 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 1: atheists in the same age range, like thirty eight percent 525 00:24:55,840 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 1: have kids, and the numbers just drop immensely among those 526 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 1: who are church going. Those are not going from doing 527 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:07,360 Speaker 1: a lot of things that I guess are very sacrificial. 528 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,400 Speaker 1: It's a lot of big sacrifice to have children, It's 529 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 1: a big sacrifice to sit there and do a lot 530 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:13,199 Speaker 1: of things. You don't have as much freedom as you 531 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: would and there's no incentive to demand it. And so 532 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,120 Speaker 1: I think that that is that you I think if 533 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 1: there is a fuel of religion and it marries with 534 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:29,119 Speaker 1: political lines, you're talking at two immensely different life experiences 535 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 1: that kind of infused. 536 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 3: And both exactly. Well. I like this this line about 537 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 3: you know, sort of sacrifice and hard work. I mean, 538 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 3: I think I always think like in kind of archetype, 539 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 3: the universe of archetypes, there's kind of two things that 540 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,200 Speaker 3: a lot of people have with religion. You know, one 541 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 3: is the sort of the nasty archetype, like it was 542 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 3: the cause of all the wars. Everybody fights a religion 543 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,560 Speaker 3: and inspires people to do bad stuff. We don't want 544 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 3: people to be too religious, you know, that's kind of 545 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 3: a thing people have. But then there's this other part 546 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 3: of your brain. It's like you forget that part altogether. 547 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 3: The other part of your brain remembers that. You know, 548 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,200 Speaker 3: every time you find these stories of heroism, the mother Teresa's, 549 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 3: the people who survive in prison for ages and ages, 550 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 3: I mean just the ones just released, you know recently, 551 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 3: you often find these amazing stories of faith that sustained 552 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 3: people through really difficult things. 553 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 1: Can I tell you I've never told the story before, 554 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:16,879 Speaker 1: and I have flashbacks to it once in a while. 555 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 1: In a I worked in politics in my entire life. 556 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: That's my whole experience, working on campaigns, and I was 557 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: working on I was literally just doing like handing out 558 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: palm cards outside of mailhouse. I met a voting site. 559 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 1: This was like when I was eighteen years old, like 560 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,120 Speaker 1: one of the very very first things I ever did. 561 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 1: And there was a woman there running for office as 562 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 1: a Democrat and someone said something anti Catholic to her, 563 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,399 Speaker 1: and I will never forget this because she shouldn't win. 564 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 1: I forget what her name was, but she dressed down 565 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 1: the person who said the anti Catholic thing her because 566 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:53,880 Speaker 1: she said, I never forget when, like I think, when 567 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,359 Speaker 1: the AIDS epidemic happened, the person the first group of 568 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 1: people to take care of dying AIDS patients were nuns. 569 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 1: It was not the government. And she made this big 570 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:07,440 Speaker 1: defense of none in the religious order, the women's religious 571 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:13,640 Speaker 1: order that I found extremely well educated, extremely intelligent, and 572 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:16,879 Speaker 1: coming from a very progressive side, which you would not 573 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,119 Speaker 1: hear nowadays, probably at all. But it's something that was 574 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 1: really real and I think that obviously that meant a 575 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 1: lot to her and among religious sec religious liberals like 576 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,159 Speaker 1: the Stephen Colberts of the world, who speak very profoundly 577 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:31,200 Speaker 1: on faith and very. 578 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 2: Well educated on faith, Yeah, there. 579 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 1: Is something there that is just different than those who 580 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 1: sit there and say it's all hogwash and yeah. 581 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,639 Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, totally, And that's going to be the 582 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 3: big thing to unpack. 583 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,439 Speaker 1: It's just a fewer Stephen Colberts and they're used to. 584 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,120 Speaker 3: Being, you know, right, And those are great stories they're 585 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 3: great stories, and so they're worth nursing our imaginations on them. 586 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 1: Well, Catherine, thank you for being on a numbers game. 587 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: Where can people go to find your book or read 588 00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 1: what you write? 589 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 3: Give us your plug Amazon. Amazon's a great place to 590 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 3: get the book and audible. If you like to listen 591 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,199 Speaker 3: to books on tape tape, that's not a thing anymore, 592 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 3: so Amazon. 593 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:06,959 Speaker 2: I'm on X. 594 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,159 Speaker 3: You know, I'm not as big as you are on X, 595 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,400 Speaker 3: but I'm there. I'm holding my own, you know, God 596 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:13,160 Speaker 3: willing in the next couple of years, I'll get more 597 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 3: out there. 598 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: But well, I hope you write another book because I 599 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 1: really like Hannah. 600 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 2: It's coming, it is. 601 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 3: I'm going to interview the men next, I'm going to 602 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 3: do the guy. 603 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:22,919 Speaker 1: Well, that's fair. I really want to talk about that then, 604 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: because that's really really fascinating. 605 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:25,400 Speaker 3: Exactly. 606 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:27,920 Speaker 1: Absolutely good luck on the new book. Thanks. I will 607 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:29,879 Speaker 1: definitely want I'll definitely pick that up because I'm interested 608 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 1: in the men's story. The women's story is very good though. 609 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: Get it hannahs Children on Amazon dot com. And thank 610 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,479 Speaker 1: you so much for listening. It's been great. This podcast 611 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 1: has been growing. Please like and subscribe wherever you get 612 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: your podcasts the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, Spotify. Give us 613 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 1: a five star review. It means a lot, and thank 614 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 1: you again. Come back next week and we will have 615 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 1: more numbers to break down.