1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:07,440 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 2: Japan's central bank just did something pretty extraordinary, something it 3 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 2: hadn't done in nearly two decades, something that got the 4 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:22,600 Speaker 2: attention of markets all over the world. It raised interest rates. 5 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 2: Here's Kazuo Ueda, governor of the Bank of Japan announcing 6 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 2: the change this week. 7 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,239 Speaker 1: And today's meeting. We took a thorough look at the 8 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: recent economic, financial, and price developments, particularly in wages and prices, so. 9 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 2: This alone wouldn't be such big news. Central banks all 10 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 2: over the world have been raising interest rates over the 11 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 2: last few years to help fight inflation, but in Japan 12 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 2: the rate hike was especially significant. 13 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 1: Today we've seen the Bank of Japan make a momentous decision. 14 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 2: This is Paul Jackson, who covers the Japanese economy for 15 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 2: bloom And Why is this recent hike getting so much attention? 16 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 2: He says, it's because Japan just raised interest rates to zero. 17 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 1: We've had negative interest rates in Japan since early twenty sixteen, 18 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 1: and it's a very radical approach to central banking. 19 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 2: Negative interest rates. They've been a big part of Japan's 20 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 2: radical economic stimulus for years, and we're supposed to get 21 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 2: money moving in the economy and spur on inflation, because 22 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:35,400 Speaker 2: while the US has been battling inflation for the past 23 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 2: few years, Japan has been desperately trying to bring it on. 24 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 2: And finally inflation happened, and so Japan is pulling interest 25 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 2: rates out of negative territory to zero, well between zero 26 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 2: and zero point one percent, and as low as the sounds, 27 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 2: it's still an interest rate hike, and it's created some 28 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 2: worries it'll slow the economy down too much, worries that 29 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 2: Kazuo Ueda made sure to address during his announcement. 30 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: Now when he was speaking, repeatedly stressed the idea that 31 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 1: we are keeping conditions easy, keeping them accommodative, meaning supportive. 32 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: That means that on a scale of tightening activity in 33 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:17,920 Speaker 1: the economy. 34 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 2: Today on the show Chasing Inflation, Japan's prices basically didn't 35 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 2: budge for two decades. Now finally they're on the rise. 36 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:32,079 Speaker 2: What that will mean for Japan's economy, for banks, for businesses, 37 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:35,920 Speaker 2: and for people who love imported chiefs, this is the 38 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 2: big take. I'm Sarah Holder. This week, the Bank of 39 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:46,359 Speaker 2: Japan made a pretty splashy announcement it would raise interest 40 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 2: rates for the first time in nearly two decades, and 41 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:52,799 Speaker 2: raising interest rates was seen as a kind of victorious moment, 42 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 2: says my colleague Paul Jackson. That's because it meant inflation 43 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 2: had finally taken hold in Japan. 44 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: And if you look to Japan over the last couple 45 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 1: of decades, one of the main problems is that there's 46 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:10,239 Speaker 1: a lot of money in Japan. It's just not moving around, 47 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 1: and that's why there's been this obsession with trying to 48 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 1: re establish inflation. 49 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:22,119 Speaker 2: Wait a second, so inflation is a good thing. That's 50 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 2: what they've been wanting to create. 51 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 1: That's right, inflation in Japan. They want inflation, they want 52 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 1: prices to go up. It's not like other countries where 53 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: the obsession is to keep inflation down. Policymakers in the 54 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: past have had the view that money is just too stagnant. 55 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: It's stationary. Companies aren't investing as much as they could. Consumers, 56 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: households just park the money in the bank and the 57 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: banks don't give them any interest and they don't really 58 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: do anything with the money. So there's all this cash 59 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: sitting in Japan, excess cash for companies and for households, 60 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 1: and it's doing absolutely nothing. 61 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 2: Absolutely nothing. Japan has been struggling with stagflation and deflation 62 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 2: for decades. That's when prices stagnate or fall. And while 63 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 2: falling prices might sound pretty great for an economy, it's 64 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 2: a disaster. And these struggles happened on the heels of 65 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 2: years of booming growth. In the eighties. Japan was an 66 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 2: economic powerhouse, producing some of the world's most innovative products 67 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 2: like the Walkman, the Camquarder, and cars like Toyota and Honda. 68 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:33,799 Speaker 2: And then, says Paul, things stalled. 69 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 1: Well, I'm afraid Japan lost that modjo in the nineteen nineties, 70 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 1: and so we got into this stagnation, and part of 71 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 1: it involved at prices going down. We got into deflation. 72 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:52,919 Speaker 1: And if you have deflation, that changes consumers behavior in 73 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 1: a very profound way, because hey, look, okay, Sarah, you 74 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: want to buy a washing machine, right, and if there's inflation, 75 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: you know that that washing machine is going to be 76 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: more expensive in three months or six months. So if 77 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: you've got the cash, what are you going to do? 78 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 1: You are going to buy it. However, if you are 79 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 1: in deflation, right, the price of that refrigerator is going 80 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: to be the same or less in six months. So 81 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: your incentive to use your spare cash to buy that 82 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:29,480 Speaker 1: a washing machine now is much more limited. In fact, 83 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 1: you might wait until your current washing machine has broken 84 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 1: down before you make that decision. 85 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 2: So the negative interest rates walk me through how that 86 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 2: helps someone or encourages someone to buy a washing machine. 87 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: Well, the first thing to just clarify is that for 88 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:52,280 Speaker 1: all the talk of negative interist rates, we are talking 89 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: about financial institutions, and the idea is to get them 90 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: to use the money, building more growth in theomy, rather 91 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: than just doing the safe thing and parking the money. 92 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:09,720 Speaker 1: And that's really the inflation story of Japan is that 93 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 1: for decades, too much money has been parked either in 94 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 1: bank or savings account or company coffers, just doing absolutely nothing. 95 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:26,159 Speaker 2: So before global inflation got going, prices in Japan were 96 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 2: basically stagnant. Paul says. That's exactly right. 97 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: In terms of consumers everyday life. Your cup of coffee, 98 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 1: your pint of milk, your bowl of rice, you're on 99 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:42,600 Speaker 1: a giddy would have stayed at the same price year in, 100 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 1: year out. And so when the cost factors with energy 101 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 1: prices and all the supply chain problems following the pandemic 102 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 1: and the war in Ukraine, companies in Japan, for the 103 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 1: first time in their generation, had to start raising price. Now, 104 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:03,359 Speaker 1: you might find this out to believe that some of 105 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: the companies put ads in newspapers apologizing, saying we're really, 106 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: really sorry. 107 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 2: So a couple years ago, prices started rising for the 108 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 2: first time in about seventeen years. Inflation rose to about 109 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 2: two percent, which is the bank's goal. So I asked Paul, 110 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 2: why is the Bank of Japan just raising interest rates now? 111 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: Right. One of the reasons why the Bank of Japan 112 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: didn't immediately pull away from stimulus when it hit two 113 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: percent in the spring of twenty twenty two is because 114 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 1: they said, hey, look, we've been seeking this target for 115 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: a long time, and we've got to have stable, positive 116 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 1: inflation cycle. And their view is that unless people are 117 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 1: getting wage gains that are matching inflation or higher than inflation, 118 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: then there's no chance that they can consume more because 119 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: they will be getting worse off. Right, And the whole 120 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: point is they're trying to generate a positive inflation cycle 121 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: that improves Japan's growth. Now, just to scroll back here, 122 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: Japanese companies have been very, very miserly in terms of 123 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: giving wage gains over the last decades, because over half 124 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 1: the working population are in these kind of jobs where 125 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: essentially you're never going to lose your job. But the 126 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: trade off, it's almost a social contract, is that Okay, 127 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 1: you've got job security, but you do not have big 128 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: wage gains. So the pay that people accept in this 129 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: country is of a totally different, much much lower level 130 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: than would be acceptable in the US. But if all 131 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: your employees are saying, hey, hey, hey, boss, you know 132 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: I've got inflation of four percent. You know I need 133 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: a bigger raise, then after a while you realize, hey, 134 00:08:57,320 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 1: we are going to have to give them something. 135 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,680 Speaker 2: Prices and wages have been rising for a while. The 136 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 2: Bank of Japan decided the economy was on solid enough 137 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 2: ground and it could bring interest rates back out of 138 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 2: negative territory. When we come back, what will rising interest 139 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 2: rates mean for Japan's economy? Who will the winners and 140 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:26,680 Speaker 2: losers be from this historic change. We're back today. We're 141 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 2: talking to Bloomberg editor Paul Jackson about the Bank of 142 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 2: Japan's decision to increase its interest rates, which have been 143 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:36,199 Speaker 2: negative for years, and this raises the question, who are 144 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 2: the winners and losers here. 145 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 1: Well, the rising of interest rates in Japan is going 146 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 1: to create quite a few winners and losers, but the 147 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 1: banking sector overall is going to win them. The government 148 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: Japan has the biggest public debt load amongst advanced economies 149 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: in the world, so if interest rates go up, then 150 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 1: the government's interest rate payments, which are already a quarter 151 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: of the annual budgets, are going to get even more expensive. 152 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 1: So hey, the government is not going to be a winner, 153 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 1: is going to be a loser. Next, we've got the 154 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 1: Bank of Japan. Well, the Bank of Japan has about 155 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: six hundred trillion YenS worth of bonds. Over half the 156 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 1: bond market is owned by the Bank of Japan, so 157 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 1: those are going to go down. It is going to 158 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:24,200 Speaker 1: get paper losses on those, So Bank of Japan's going 159 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: to lose out. Now, companies Japan's biggest companies, it's big exporters. 160 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 1: They have global businesses. They benefit a lot from the 161 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 1: cheap yen. So if interest rates go up, the yen 162 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: strengthens and the value of those profits made overseas for 163 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 1: those big Japanese exporters are going to go down. They're 164 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: going to take a hit, so this is a minus 165 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 1: for them. 166 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 2: So let me get this straight. This is bad for 167 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 2: the BOJ, it's bad for the government. Why are they 168 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 2: going to do this if they are going to be 169 00:10:57,440 --> 00:10:59,440 Speaker 2: losers along with big companies. 170 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously all these things. It's the angle that 171 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: you're looking at him. So in terms of the government finances, 172 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: the government's finances and the boj's finances could take a 173 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 1: hit from this. But overall, for the good of the 174 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:20,559 Speaker 1: economy and the nation, this is a good thing. Getting 175 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:26,199 Speaker 1: into a positive inflation cycle that gets all the money 176 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:32,560 Speaker 1: that's there doing nothing moving around getting invested into companies 177 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 1: that are growing and not supporting companies that are in 178 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: a kind of zombiefide status and chewing up money and resources. 179 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: But it is going to be uncomfortable for consumers and businesses, 180 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: but ultimately the policymakers of the Bank of Japan and 181 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 1: of the national government overall this is the objective. So 182 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: in those terms, this is going to be very good. 183 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 2: And what about these people, what will this mean for them? 184 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 1: If you're a homeowner, well, obviously interest rates go up, 185 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:08,679 Speaker 1: then your mortgage rate is eventually going to go up. 186 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 1: So that's not going to be good for you. If 187 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 1: you're a consumer and you like Italian wine and French cheese, well, 188 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 1: if the en strengthens, that's going to get cheaper, so 189 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:22,079 Speaker 1: you're going to be happier. The flood of tourists coming 190 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 1: into Japan, it's one of the cheapest places. The out 191 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: of reach bucket list destination has become one of the 192 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: most exciting and affordable places in Asia. But it's going 193 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: to become more expensive if the end strengthens, and. 194 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 2: It's helping French wine lovers, which is of course paramounts. 195 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:41,199 Speaker 1: Absolutely. 196 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 2: Is there any scenario in which these rate hikes will backfire? 197 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 1: Hey, well, look, you know when whenever you have these 198 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: policy changes, you are basically putting kind of more pressure 199 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: on all the actors within the economy. They've got to 200 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: kind of raise their game. It becomes more differentficult to 201 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:03,320 Speaker 1: make money, so it puts more pressure on the economy. 202 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: Usually you get companies having to tighten the belts, maybe 203 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 1: layoff people. As you go higher and higher up the 204 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: interest rate scale. This is tightening policy. And you'll have 205 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 1: heard in the US, obviously Jerom Powell talking about the 206 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 1: need to try and secure a soft landing This is 207 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: the idea of trying to like close down activity in 208 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 1: the economy just enough to take the heat the froth 209 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: out of the economy and lower the price growth without 210 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 1: going too hard on the breaks, and then having companies 211 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: like lay off a whold sway of people and then 212 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 1: getting into a recession and something that causes scarring in 213 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: the economy. Now, calibrating this, you probably want to move 214 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 1: in small steps that may look fairly significant if you 215 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: look at them one by one, But it's the trend 216 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 1: and the impact as it filters through to the economy 217 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 1: that's the important factor. 218 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 2: So what are you watching for as these higher rates 219 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 2: roll out, either as an economic indicator or just as 220 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 2: a person living in Japan? 221 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 1: Hey, I think it's that consumption, whether households can get 222 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 1: into the mindset of hey, actually it's okay to spend 223 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: because our wages are going faster than inflation. But I 224 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 1: think the analogy here is of riding a bicycle. If 225 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: you ride it, you can move forward, you can make progress. 226 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: But getting on the bicycle and getting up to the 227 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: critical speed on the bicycle, until you get to that moment, 228 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 1: there's a lot of instability and you could fall off. 229 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 2: You might need training wheels first. Well, thank you so much, Paul. 230 00:14:54,240 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 2: I really appreciate your time, my pleasure. This is the 231 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 2: Big Take from Bloomberg News. I'm Sarah Holder. This episode 232 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 2: was produced by Thomas lou and David Fox. It was 233 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 2: edited by Stacy Vanick Smith. It was mixed by Ben 234 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 2: O'Brien and Alex Sugiura. It was fact checked by Naomi. 235 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 2: Our senior producers are Naomi Shavin and Elizabeth Ponso. Nicole 236 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 2: Beemsterbor is our executive producer. Sage Bauman is our head 237 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 2: of podcasts. Thanks for listening. Please follow and review The 238 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 2: Big Take wherever you listen to podcasts. It helps new 239 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 2: listeners find the show. We'll be back tomorrow.