WEBVTT - Questlove Supreme: Bob James 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:13.680 West Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. Wait a minute, 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:15.000 is that a d X seven. 0:00:15.440 --> 0:00:20.880 That is a I know chorus patch on my montage? 0:00:22.320 --> 0:00:25.840 Okay, we got it. 0:00:26.079 --> 0:00:31.120 Nice, Nice, ladies and gentlemen, Welcome to another episode of 0:00:31.240 --> 0:00:35.839 West Love Supreme. I don't know Steve and why we 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:40.600 might need another superlative, like, you know, like James Brown 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:42.760 has the famous Flames. I think we should be like 0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:50.080 the legendary Supreme or you know, something some even more exciting. Yeah, 0:00:50.200 --> 0:00:54.840 you know, because I feel like every episode has yet 0:00:54.880 --> 0:01:00.520 another kind of bucket list that we didn't know that 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:04.920 we wanted to check off. Steve, I feel like this 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:08.559 is going to be the Yeah, this is the Steve 0:01:09.080 --> 0:01:11.360 MVP episode. Not to put any pressure on. 0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:14.119 You, I've handled some episodes. I think I had one 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:16.880 of the top five episodes of last year if you 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:18.880 want to check the numbers. 0:01:19.920 --> 0:01:21.880 Like this, this is sort of like, you know, we 0:01:21.959 --> 0:01:25.000 had expectations for Lebron to be the guy back when 0:01:25.040 --> 0:01:25.920 in high school and. 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:28.319 All right, well, I want you to do your intro. 0:01:28.480 --> 0:01:31.840 But but yeah, I was just telling honestly before the 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:35.000 before we started the show, was telling Bob and Sonny 0:01:35.000 --> 0:01:38.560 that I do have a radio show on WKCR, Columbia 0:01:38.640 --> 0:01:42.600 University's radio station, and the show that we do is 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:47.360 about jazz labels, and each episode we cover a different label, 0:01:47.360 --> 0:01:49.960 and quite recently a couple months ago, we did a 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:52.480 three hour episode about tappan Zee Records, which is Bob's 0:01:52.520 --> 0:01:56.760 label under Columbia in the late seventies and eighties and 0:01:57.080 --> 0:02:00.000 into the nineties, I believe, well as part of Warner 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:04.160 But Tappansz went on for a bit, and I'm dying 0:02:04.200 --> 0:02:06.600 to talk directly to the man who started the label 0:02:06.600 --> 0:02:09.640 and who was it was such an influential label and 0:02:09.680 --> 0:02:13.880 it's getting a little lost. So I want to refresh 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:19.119 our listeners with some like it said in like twenty episodes. 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:22.880 No, this is amazing, This is amazing. I might I 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:26.720 might just skip the intro anyway. Fante laya, you guys cool? 0:02:27.080 --> 0:02:28.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're good. 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:28.679 I'm living. 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:30.600 What's going on? 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:30.760 Man? 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:31.320 Was that? So? 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:35.320 I will basically say that our guest today, of course, 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:38.640 is a legendary jazz musician, but I don't think we 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:41.760 could just reduce him to jazz. Yeah, his music is smooth, 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:45.640 but we dare not call him smooth jazz. His music 0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:50.160 is hip hop, but you know, we can't call him 0:02:50.240 --> 0:02:53.760 hip hop. But I think probably the most unique character 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:59.480 trait of our guest today is probably my or not 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:05.400 my our inability to pinpoint what is he exactly? Is 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:09.160 he an avant garde artist, Is he a musical provocateur? 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:11.480 Is he the godfather smooth jazz? 0:03:11.520 --> 0:03:12.040 I don't know. 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:16.320 I will say that probably when the smoke clears and 0:03:16.360 --> 0:03:22.400 we start taking a toll of the artists that fall 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:25.320 under the jazz umbrella, and there's many categories under that, 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:28.640 I will say that as far as the scope of 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:30.480 hip hop, and yes, like we kind of come from 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:32.560 a hip hop scope because of our age and whatnot, 0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:34.920 we get to know a lot of these artists through 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:38.000 the power of sampling, I will say that our guest 0:03:38.080 --> 0:03:39.680 is probably at the top of the list. 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:41.760 Like I think, hands down he's the. 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:44.680 King of textures, which is something that you don't necessarily 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:49.720 hear someone describe another musician, but listening under a hip 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:54.280 hop context, texture means everything. I also think that our 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:58.600 guest is probably one of the kings of the perfect 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:04.240 four bar capture, the ability to transform your new creation 0:04:04.400 --> 0:04:05.320 into something else. 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:08.240 That's just how adventures he is cut to cut to 0:04:08.280 --> 0:04:10.360 cut to cut, from album to album. 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:14.800 And I will say that probably one of the best 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:21.200 engineered artists under the contemporary jazz umbrella, just as sound 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:27.159 speaks to probably everyone in my generation and beyond, because 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:29.680 of course, a lot of his music is the foundation 0:04:30.480 --> 0:04:33.480 for some of the best hip hop that I've ever known, 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:36.800 that we've ever known. And you the listener, you've heard 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:40.960 his music, whether you knew it or not. He is, 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:49.200 you know, multi nominated, underappreciated, loved, worship, always in demand, 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:54.400 an absolute legend. This is the Bob James episode of 0:04:54.480 --> 0:05:01.200 Quest Love Supreme. Finally, Man, Yes. 0:05:01.720 --> 0:05:04.360 And I hope that was recorded so I can put. 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:11.520 I cut it in half, like because I could really, yeah, 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:12.680 take this for eighteen minutes. 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:16.200 You mentioned the best engineered. Did you mean engineered or 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:20.440 did you mean like him engineering at a concept? I mean, 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:24.000 I'm trying to bring up the name Joe Jorgenson, who 0:05:24.080 --> 0:05:24.920 was George. 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:28.200 Organ and Rudy Like for me, just it's the perfect 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:34.400 texture of compression and natural sounds to me that I 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:39.760 think is what attracts my generation to his music, because 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:42.279 you know, like there's two ways to take in music. 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:45.640 You know, we come from a generation where you go digging, 0:05:46.080 --> 0:05:49.159 you take the records home. And I mean, with the 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:52.719 notable exception of Primo and Dyla, I don't know many 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:57.120 hip hop producers that actually listen and absorb the records, 0:05:57.320 --> 0:05:59.440 like listen to it over and over and over again 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:04.120 until they actually absorb it. And you know, because a 0:06:04.120 --> 0:06:05.880 lot of us just skip put it on forty five 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:09.200 no no, no oh, that's something you know you skip around. 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:12.080 But to me is one of some of the best 0:06:12.120 --> 0:06:17.839 engineered music for the purpose of sampling. But you know, again, 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:20.360 it's like you can listen to his music under different scopes, 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:23.800 not just like from a sampling perspective. But that's the 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:25.159 thing you can't category. 0:06:25.320 --> 0:06:29.279 Is it one more thing before? Maybe we let the 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:30.240 guests speak. 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:33.520 Right, Let's have a whole episode where he just doesn't 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:35.440 good thing. 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:38.560 You watch Keyboard Bob, I've smiling. 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:39.800 I'll just sit here and listen. 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:42.440 So I think the word that you were missing in 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:44.840 your intro and why it's so hard to describe what 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:48.040 he did and what he does is fusion. I think 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:50.240 that what he did was basically just another version of 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:51.840 fusion jazz. 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:55.640 But I feel like any description for jazz artist is 0:06:55.680 --> 0:06:56.960 almost like a four letter word. 0:06:57.920 --> 0:07:02.440 Fusion. You know is includes obviously whatever many different things 0:07:02.520 --> 0:07:03.480 that are being fused. 0:07:03.960 --> 0:07:09.080 Well, let's ask him, Bob James, welcome to the show. Finally, 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:13.160 nineteen minutes later. You know, I know we do it 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:17.080 if all is said and done and without sort of 0:07:17.160 --> 0:07:19.640 you know, oftentimes artists will and I'm guilty of it, 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:24.520 like sort of ducking and dodging the accolades like what 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:28.680 would you like us to know you as? And describing 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:31.280 your artistry. 0:07:31.520 --> 0:07:34.240 I don't know that I'd probably be the right person 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:39.840 because so busy doing it, and I never could stay 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:42.400 in one category for very long. Maybe I was just 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:47.800 too restless or something. But at one point earlier in 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:52.960 my career, my wife advised me that we were having 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:56.040 a conversation about I thought I was spreading myself too 0:07:56.120 --> 0:08:00.120 thin and I should focus more on one thing and 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:01.600 make up my mind whether I want to be in 0:08:01.640 --> 0:08:06.440 a ranger or a pianist in what genre classical jazz 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:13.160 or whatever, And she said, stop worrying about it, just 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:17.080 do what you do, and that maybe what sets you 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:19.240 apart or makes you different from an other artist is 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:22.200 that you do a lot of stuff. And so I've 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:25.800 kind of stayed with that and not attempted to categorize 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:30.800 myself or go too far into one direction, because I 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:35.560 love the variety and the challenge of it. Right now, 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:39.560 trying to meet hip hop head on, rather than have 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:42.920 it happen off to the side, whether they take a 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:44.960 chunk of me while I'm not there in the room 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:49.760 to be able to defend myself, it might be good 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:51.480 to get in there and say, well, wait a minute, 0:08:51.480 --> 0:08:53.839 wait a minute, before you chop me up, let's see 0:08:53.840 --> 0:08:56.400 if we just go from beginning. 0:08:56.080 --> 0:09:00.400 To end every now, Okay, So Bob James does a 0:09:00.400 --> 0:09:01.080 lot of stuff. 0:09:01.520 --> 0:09:04.040 The reason why said fusion though, Bob, is because I 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:07.040 feel like Tapanzee Records and a lot of what you've 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:10.240 done in your career was not only fusing different types 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:14.480 of music together, but also really incorporating the place and 0:09:14.520 --> 0:09:18.360 the time period into your music. Like New York City 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:22.360 in the late seventies and early eighties, and and you know, 0:09:22.920 --> 0:09:25.400 the city and the time period did that play a 0:09:25.400 --> 0:09:27.000 lot into the music. 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:31.840 I absolutely always have thought that one of the things 0:09:31.840 --> 0:09:35.679 about jazz is it's improvised, so you're giving your feeling 0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:38.199 right at that moment, on that day in that city, 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:41.720 wherever you are that it definitely does represent the time 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:45.800 period of what's going on. It should anyway, if we're 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:51.560 being honest, we're reflecting our time, and that changes. So 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:55.880 I've resisted when people try to make a definition of 0:09:55.920 --> 0:10:00.400 what jazz is or because it changes. It changed along 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:02.360 with everything else that's going on around it. 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:09.400 What was your first musical memory. 0:10:08.280 --> 0:10:11.320 Getting fired from being pianist at a tap dance class 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:12.199 in my hometown. 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:15.040 I think I was twelve or something like that. 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:18.600 And I couldn't keep the beat, so the tap dancers 0:10:19.000 --> 0:10:23.720 were tripping and finally the well, actually, the reason why 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:25.280 I got hired in the first place is I think 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:27.800 I was the only pianist in the town that they 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:31.520 could use to play for this tap dance class. I 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:35.600 guess it's my earliest memory of trying to learn what 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:37.679 keeping the beat met. 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:41.600 Still trying who would have the gumption to fire a 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:42.480 twelve year old? 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:48.320 Yeah, that was pretty cold, and I don't exactly remember that, 0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:51.400 but I may have defined that too harshly and they 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:51.720 may have. 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:54.400 I actually told me to go home to my mom. 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:57.359 Passive aggressive firing, Okay. 0:10:57.120 --> 0:10:59.240 You couldn't keep up? Was it with a simple kickball? 0:10:59.320 --> 0:11:00.880 Change of it all. Is it one of those kind 0:11:00.920 --> 0:11:05.400 of classes of beginners. I was just curious. I just 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:07.719 I mean, you know, I'm a Heines girl. 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:10.079 Was there music around your house growing up? 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:11.520 Not a whole lot. 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:15.760 My father was a lawyer, and I lived in a 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:19.640 small town of Missouri where what I did here was 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:23.920 mostly country music, and my parents didn't really have that 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:28.880 many records that came close to jazz either. I started 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:32.320 hearing a little bit and getting intrigued high school baby, 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:38.480 and I remember kind of liking that, feeling that it 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:44.160 was improvised, as opposed to what I perceived classical music 0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:49.400 being too much practicing, and jazz represented this at that time, 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:53.360 escape from practicing, so because you could just make it 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:57.560 up anything that came into your head. And it's only 0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:01.920 been in more recent years that I decided that practicing, 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:06.520 even somewhere in the relationship to jazz was a good 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:08.559 thing and not a bad thing. 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:13.559 So around what year was that when you discovered jazz. 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:18.960 In the nineteen fifties, in the mid nineteen fifties, and 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:24.640 I do remember that that was pretty much the highlight 0:12:24.720 --> 0:12:29.080 of the West Coast jazz because I do remember Chet Baker, 0:12:29.120 --> 0:12:34.840 Jerry Mulligan, Dave bru Beck, those names formed or the 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:38.520 style of it, the West Coast style was intriguing to me. 0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:43.000 Only in college did I kind of get more tried 0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:43.760 to get more deep. 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:48.280 I know, there's this famous story of was it a 0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:52.920 town show or something some kind of competition where the 0:12:52.960 --> 0:12:56.120 bands were being judged by Henry Mancini and Quincy Jones, 0:12:56.640 --> 0:12:57.600 And how. 0:12:57.559 --> 0:13:00.600 About that for a panel to be judging. Yeah, it 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:08.199 was very pivotal time in my life. I was at 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:11.920 that time, I just graduated from the University of Michigan, 0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:16.240 and there was a kind of big avant garde group 0:13:16.440 --> 0:13:22.200 of musicians that I became associated with because they needed 0:13:22.240 --> 0:13:25.720 performers who were willing to be really daring and do 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:29.880 crazy things. That the avant garde world was really out 0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:33.040 at that time, and so I was incorporating some of 0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:38.120 those avant garde things into my jazz trio. And I 0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:40.760 decided to take the trio down to Notre Dame where 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:44.200 this jazz festival was being held, and it was very conventional. 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:49.080 We were expected to play bebop and I kind of 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:53.120 deliberately went up against that and started playing some crazy 0:13:53.160 --> 0:14:00.120 stuff along with some bebop and Quincy's here especially. I 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:03.520 kind of don't remember whether Henry MENSI he was into 0:14:03.559 --> 0:14:06.040 what we did, but Quincy definitely was, and they put 0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:08.480 a smile on his face. Gave me a chance to 0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:14.000 meet him, and we kind of prevailed at that in 0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:16.719 the Winter Circle at the festival, and Quincy signed me 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:21.440 to record deal. So gave me confidence to move to 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:23.880 New York and go into the jazz business. 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:26.040 Did you been to school? Yep. 0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:32.880 I got a master's degree in composition, mostly classical training. 0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:39.920 My jazz training was extracurricular. I'd go into Detroit from 0:14:39.920 --> 0:14:43.720 ann Arburn, look around for a place to sit in. 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:44.240 Yeah. 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:48.520 And so Quincy signed you to was it Mercury? 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:49.560 Yes? 0:14:50.280 --> 0:14:53.600 And we recorded the album in Chicago. He was living there, 0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:54.760 I think at that time. 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:58.800 And that's where he was. The Mercury was based in Chicago. 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:03.120 And so this is like the early sixties, right, Yes. 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:05.680 Sixty three, sixty two, sixty two. 0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:10.280 Sixty three, And so I know that at the end 0:15:10.360 --> 0:15:15.360 of this small part of the conversation, Quincy eventually recommends 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:17.520 you or lead you to Creed Taylor, and that gets 0:15:17.560 --> 0:15:21.320 you to CTI. But what happens in between there in 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:23.160 the mid sixties. 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:27.960 Another big pivotal time was when I got the job 0:15:28.000 --> 0:15:32.240 with Saravon, her music director of Pianist nineteen sixty five. 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:33.200 Wow. 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:37.040 I had learned that her pianist ron L Bright had 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:41.760 left and she was looking around, and indirectly Quincy was 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:46.440 involved in that too, because where I learned that Sarah 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:49.960 was looking for pianists was at this music copy service 0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:54.360 in Manhattan where I used to hang out and watch 0:15:54.400 --> 0:15:57.240 all the arrangers come in with their charts that music 0:15:57.280 --> 0:16:00.720 needed to be copied. This was before the computer era, 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:05.960 where the copyists were still copying out departs for the 0:16:06.040 --> 0:16:11.720 musicians in ink. So anyway, uh, yeah, I learned about 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:18.240 this possible job. And I had actually met Sarah very 0:16:18.280 --> 0:16:21.800 briefly once when I was playing with Maiden Ferguson's band 0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:27.600 at Bergland in New York, and Sarah came in to 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:30.120 the club and made her ask her to come up 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:32.480 to sing, and of course she didn't have any arrangements 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:35.160 with her, so she couldn't do anything with a big band. 0:16:35.880 --> 0:16:40.080 And that's when my nerves kicked in because the pianist 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:44.840 always kind of gets the responsibility to have to play, 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:49.440 and once once she calls out a song, you better 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:52.280 know it, because she wouldn't have come in with any music, 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:57.800 even for the pianist. I got really, really lucky that 0:16:57.800 --> 0:17:03.080 that night because she said, do you know the Sweetest Sounds? 0:17:03.840 --> 0:17:09.520 And I was able to say fairly quickly, yeah, well 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:15.600 key this in the jargon of that time. Lets the 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:19.520 person who asks you about it know that you're that 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:20.240 you're prepared. 0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:22.679 And at that time, there. 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:27.200 Was a Broadway musical that had just opened up, and 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:30.840 the Sweetest Sounds was one of the songs in that musical. 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:35.760 It was a brand new song by Richard Rodgers. But anyway, 0:17:35.880 --> 0:17:38.479 I was kind of a fan of musical theater, and 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:43.240 it's just complete coincidence that I knew this song just barely. 0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:46.640 Shoe Sarah was one of the first cover artists sing 0:17:46.640 --> 0:17:49.000 it out of the Broadway show, and so. 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:53.720 It made an impression on her. And it was at 0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:54.920 least a year or two. 0:17:54.920 --> 0:18:00.240 After that that I responded when she was looking for 0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:03.920 a pianist, and she remembered that night and I got 0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:09.680 to John, I have. 0:18:09.680 --> 0:18:14.760 To ask a real amateur jazz question. Now, you know, 0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:18.160 my tenure in school was like in the eighties and nineties, 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:22.200 so of course I'm in a generation that grew up 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:26.040 with having access to what they would call a fake book. 0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:31.600 Was there any sort of cheat sheety fake books of 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:34.719 that level back in well, you know those songs are 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:37.720 also being written in real time, But how does a 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:41.879 musician learn these repertoires, like you would just have to 0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:43.560 go to the store and just buy all the sheet 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:46.800 music to everything? Or were their fake books out back then? 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:51.920 Yeah, in my memory, there were fake books that kept 0:18:51.920 --> 0:18:56.800 getting bigger as a as a tool. You know, we 0:18:56.880 --> 0:18:59.960 have it in our phone. We could look up atty Saw. 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:02.240 I mean, the similar kind of a fake book thing 0:19:02.240 --> 0:19:07.240 that we could do. But at that time, I'm reasonably 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:09.919 sure that this song was so new that it wouldn't 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:12.440 have been in a fake book anyway, because you jok 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:15.520 them out. And in Maynard's band, the only thing I 0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:18.879 would have had on the piano was his charts that 0:19:18.960 --> 0:19:21.960 I was playing with him, so that when she came 0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:27.439 in unannounced and surprised that if I hadn't known, that 0:19:27.600 --> 0:19:30.359 song might have changed my life and I probably wouldn't 0:19:30.359 --> 0:19:31.240 have gotten the gig later. 0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:35.080 I see now every time we have a jazz artist 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:37.840 on the show, the first thing they want to do 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:40.840 is sort of dispel not only dispel the myth, but 0:19:40.960 --> 0:19:44.960 sort of dispel it in a kind of a stick 0:19:45.040 --> 0:19:50.960 to a pinataway. Now, in general, if you're moving to 0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:56.080 New York City looking to make a living playing this music, 0:19:56.240 --> 0:19:59.639 jazz in particular, you pretty much have to be a 0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:01.399 wizard at reading music. 0:20:01.400 --> 0:20:02.160 Correct. 0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:06.119 I wouldn't say you have to what's that? 0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:07.240 What y'all? 0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:10.199 Well, you know, there were two different approaches to it. 0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:15.160 In my case, I think I was pretty clearly thinking 0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:18.720 that the more trending you had, the better, and that 0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:21.400 just meant it increased your odds of getting a gig. 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:24.280 Some of the gigs were not necessarily going to be 0:20:24.320 --> 0:20:27.080 a jazz gig. You might get a gig playing for 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:31.480 wedding or whatever, and certain kind of gigs, if you 0:20:31.480 --> 0:20:35.800 couldn't read, you wouldn't get that gig, But certain jazz gigs, 0:20:35.840 --> 0:20:37.640 it didn't make any difference whether you read or not, 0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:44.879 because we all know that the greats that were not readers, 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:49.439 And that's just a particular way. And I felt also 0:20:50.320 --> 0:20:53.600 to happen for me with Greed Taylor, he was a 0:20:53.840 --> 0:20:58.719 very much his style with his label, had a lot 0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:02.360 of production values and he was adding strings and woodwinds 0:21:02.400 --> 0:21:06.720 and various things to start out with a basic jazz 0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:10.760 group and then give it the same kind of production 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:15.720 details that pop artists had. So he needed arranger to 0:21:15.840 --> 0:21:19.919 do that, and it turned out that he he learned 0:21:19.960 --> 0:21:22.800 that I was qualified to do it after having been 0:21:22.880 --> 0:21:27.760 introduced to him by Quincy. So I got that job 0:21:28.400 --> 0:21:32.960 because of my training, and it helped me get the job. 0:21:33.440 --> 0:21:36.439 All right, let's take value of the shadows, which maybe 0:21:36.480 --> 0:21:40.879 our audience might note that as a group homes the 0:21:40.920 --> 0:21:46.439 realness now value of shadows, which has so much like 0:21:46.480 --> 0:21:48.679 stop on a dime, you know, just like all this 0:21:48.840 --> 0:21:52.080 arrangement stuff. So might I believe, like Steve gadd or 0:21:53.280 --> 0:21:56.600 it's just mohammet, we're giving these charts and knew exactly 0:21:56.640 --> 0:22:01.119 when the like the starts and stops were because I'm 0:22:01.320 --> 0:22:05.159 imagining that you guys can't live in a studio like 0:22:05.520 --> 0:22:08.960 I come from a place where like I've written complete 0:22:09.000 --> 0:22:12.160 albums inside the studio, whereas like I'm assuming that jazz 0:22:12.240 --> 0:22:15.040 musicians have to have this stuff prepared ahead of time. 0:22:15.160 --> 0:22:16.640 You just go to studio and you knock it out 0:22:16.640 --> 0:22:20.240 real quick. You don't waste time doing fifteen takes twenty 0:22:20.280 --> 0:22:24.320 takes or whatnot, So like, do they just study the 0:22:24.400 --> 0:22:26.400 music or do you give him a cassette the arrangement 0:22:26.440 --> 0:22:28.840 ahead of time and they just committed to memory. 0:22:30.240 --> 0:22:35.760 It was all variations of that over many years. You 0:22:36.320 --> 0:22:40.040 mentioned Idris Muhammad in my memory of working with Idris. 0:22:40.119 --> 0:22:43.280 It's been a long time, but Idris may have been 0:22:43.320 --> 0:22:46.200 able to read some simple chart, but he was not 0:22:46.359 --> 0:22:49.239 what we would call reader, And so I was going 0:22:49.280 --> 0:22:52.120 to hire Adrise. I wouldn't put a big complicated chart 0:22:52.240 --> 0:22:54.720 in front of him because even if he did, it 0:22:54.760 --> 0:22:58.040 would change his approach to playing, and what I wanted 0:22:58.080 --> 0:23:05.320 from him was his his own own, loose, non obedient, 0:23:06.119 --> 0:23:11.600 reading a chart kind of style. So in some cases 0:23:12.000 --> 0:23:17.040 we were deliberately trying to move away from a kind 0:23:17.040 --> 0:23:22.240 of written approach to the rhythm section at the basic tracks, 0:23:22.840 --> 0:23:26.520 because we had started during that era of overdubbing and 0:23:26.560 --> 0:23:28.520 not having everybody in the room at the same time. 0:23:28.640 --> 0:23:32.080 So for the most part, most of those CTI records, 0:23:32.600 --> 0:23:35.960 we would record the rhythm section first and the production 0:23:36.080 --> 0:23:39.080 part of it would come afterwards. So I could work 0:23:39.080 --> 0:23:42.439 with two different kind of musicians. I could go in 0:23:42.480 --> 0:23:45.200 on the rhythm section date and do a very loose 0:23:45.320 --> 0:23:50.240 with minimum kind of chart, and then once I had 0:23:50.400 --> 0:23:55.359 that basic track, I'd take that home and score the 0:23:55.440 --> 0:24:00.399 more complex stuff or the stuff for the larger orchestra. 0:24:01.240 --> 0:24:03.920 And so I guess we did it both ways. 0:24:04.440 --> 0:24:08.480 And for a piece like Value of the Shadows or 0:24:08.600 --> 0:24:11.720 Night on Maull Mountain, some of those things that were 0:24:11.880 --> 0:24:17.199 adaptations of classical music, it definitely required a chart and 0:24:17.280 --> 0:24:20.760 a musician that could read, and I hired them on 0:24:20.800 --> 0:24:24.239 the basis of that. And it wasn't categorical, because the 0:24:24.280 --> 0:24:26.240 next day I might want to do something that was 0:24:26.280 --> 0:24:30.840 totally loose and just play some blues or whatever, and 0:24:30.880 --> 0:24:34.040 then reading would take that music in the wrong direction. 0:24:34.359 --> 0:24:34.720 Got it? 0:24:35.400 --> 0:24:41.200 In developing your initial sound? Who were you idolizing? 0:24:41.840 --> 0:24:42.080 Yeah? 0:24:42.480 --> 0:24:47.040 I wasn't too different from most other aspiring jazz pianists 0:24:47.080 --> 0:24:50.560 in that I listened a lot to Oscar Peterson and 0:24:50.600 --> 0:24:54.119 Bill Eppens, maybe the two that I listened to the most. 0:24:54.240 --> 0:24:56.679 Of course, I tried to listen to everybody, Gardner and 0:24:56.760 --> 0:25:01.080 Artatam and on and on, but I I usually came 0:25:01.160 --> 0:25:05.480 down to thinking that three of those pianists influenced me 0:25:05.560 --> 0:25:10.639 the most. When I was trying to break into the field, 0:25:11.640 --> 0:25:14.679 and I would add count Basie to Bill Evans and 0:25:14.680 --> 0:25:21.600 Oscar Peterson count Basie just because his minimalism of playing 0:25:21.600 --> 0:25:25.720 only a couple of notes eight measures, but he knew 0:25:25.960 --> 0:25:30.359 exactly when played them, and I loved that economy of 0:25:31.320 --> 0:25:33.200 not playing too. He was sort of the opposite of 0:25:33.240 --> 0:25:37.359 Oscar Peterson, and Oscar Peterson had so much chops that 0:25:37.440 --> 0:25:40.360 I could I knew I could never do that anywhere 0:25:40.359 --> 0:25:42.359 close to the way he did it, so I better 0:25:42.400 --> 0:25:44.440 try to find some other approach. 0:25:45.920 --> 0:25:51.600 Is Bill the Is he partly responsible for why the 0:25:51.640 --> 0:25:54.960 Fender Rhodes became your signature sound? 0:25:55.080 --> 0:25:55.840 Or was just. 0:25:57.440 --> 0:25:57.680 No? 0:25:57.760 --> 0:26:00.200 As a matter of fact, I didn't like the way 0:26:00.240 --> 0:26:03.639 either Bill Evans or Oscar Peterson played the Fender Rose 0:26:04.359 --> 0:26:07.480 and they only played it occasionally, and it always seemed 0:26:07.520 --> 0:26:11.239 to me that sounded like they either had to do 0:26:11.280 --> 0:26:17.040 it or experimented with it and ended up not liking it. 0:26:17.359 --> 0:26:21.000 If you look at their overall recorded repertoire, you won't 0:26:21.000 --> 0:26:24.040 find very many Fender Rows tracks from Bill Evans or 0:26:24.160 --> 0:26:27.960 Oscar Peterson. And when I heard them play it, both 0:26:28.000 --> 0:26:31.359 of them, I hope I'm not being sacrilegious, but they 0:26:32.640 --> 0:26:34.760 they hit it too hard, They hit the keys too hard. 0:26:34.800 --> 0:26:37.520 They wouldn't change their technique. 0:26:37.680 --> 0:26:39.520 They played it like it was an acoustic piano. 0:26:40.000 --> 0:26:44.000 Yeah, you can't play that instrument that way because the 0:26:44.000 --> 0:26:48.720 acoustic piano has so much more dynamic range. And I 0:26:50.000 --> 0:26:54.800 don't know it formed my style at that time because 0:26:54.920 --> 0:26:57.399 I was asked to do it. I hadn't gone out 0:26:57.440 --> 0:27:00.400 and found Fender Rose on my own. Rudy Vank had 0:27:00.400 --> 0:27:02.840 one in his studio and I started being asked to 0:27:02.840 --> 0:27:06.639 play it, and to my ear, I had to change 0:27:07.040 --> 0:27:08.680 my technique to make it sound good. 0:27:09.080 --> 0:27:12.159 Was it was it like now it's so commonplace, but 0:27:13.840 --> 0:27:17.800 in the early sixties when they're when they're developing this instrument, Like, 0:27:18.160 --> 0:27:19.880 was it foreign? 0:27:20.160 --> 0:27:21.240 Was it like? 0:27:21.240 --> 0:27:24.480 Like, I mean the way that we look at probably 0:27:24.520 --> 0:27:27.200 the way that we're looking at AI technology right now, 0:27:27.240 --> 0:27:29.919 Like was it sort of a thing to marvel or 0:27:30.600 --> 0:27:31.439 something to master? 0:27:32.240 --> 0:27:32.320 Like? 0:27:33.600 --> 0:27:36.080 What were your feelings on it? 0:27:36.080 --> 0:27:38.560 It was? It was a gig. 0:27:39.920 --> 0:27:46.800 I've also even really I was playing it because because 0:27:47.040 --> 0:27:50.640 I had to. That was my assignment on that particular gig, 0:27:50.640 --> 0:27:51.440 because they wanted. 0:27:51.200 --> 0:27:52.400 To Okay Bros. 0:27:52.920 --> 0:27:56.840 When my heart was still with the acoustic panto until 0:27:57.480 --> 0:28:00.480 I began to realize that I was getting identified with 0:28:00.560 --> 0:28:03.080 it and that I had some kind of approach that 0:28:03.080 --> 0:28:06.959 people were hearing. That almost forced me to take it 0:28:07.000 --> 0:28:12.960 more seriously. When my album, the first solo album that 0:28:13.000 --> 0:28:15.560 I made for CTI had feel like making Love on it, 0:28:15.640 --> 0:28:20.400 and there was a sound that I had used vendor 0:28:20.480 --> 0:28:23.720 Rose on ROBERTA Flex because I played piano for her 0:28:23.800 --> 0:28:28.359 on her version two, so that sound became very much identified. 0:28:29.480 --> 0:28:33.000 That was what nineteen seventy four, I guess in some 0:28:33.040 --> 0:28:36.280 ways I felt limited by it because it just had 0:28:36.920 --> 0:28:39.240 no matter what you did, there was only one way 0:28:39.320 --> 0:28:43.600 that I could make it sound authentic for good. 0:28:44.080 --> 0:28:54.200 Okay, So I kind of was starting your discography. 0:28:52.800 --> 0:28:54.400 The period in between. 0:28:55.600 --> 0:29:00.960 The first album, The Bowld Conceptions that Quincy produced and 0:29:01.280 --> 0:29:07.000 your second album Explosions, which really doesn't get discussed enough, and. 0:29:07.480 --> 0:29:09.720 It doesn't because if it got discussed too much, I 0:29:09.800 --> 0:29:10.800 might not have a career. 0:29:14.640 --> 0:29:17.480 The night and day of those two records, I meant 0:29:18.280 --> 0:29:22.520 in nineteen sixty five, like I know by you know, 0:29:22.560 --> 0:29:25.160 I know, by like fifty nine sixty like there was 0:29:25.200 --> 0:29:29.160 there is avant garde jazz and whatnot, but your version 0:29:30.240 --> 0:29:33.200 of it is way beyond like you know, Coltrane's thing 0:29:33.280 --> 0:29:36.840 was more spirituality, and then you know, like the stuff 0:29:36.840 --> 0:29:38.360 with the shape of Jazz to Come and all those 0:29:38.440 --> 0:29:41.600 things like which I think they're being avant garde with notes, 0:29:41.640 --> 0:29:47.680 but you know you're kind of taking at least listening 0:29:47.720 --> 0:29:48.600 to those records. 0:29:51.000 --> 0:29:53.800 I mean, if I could be bold to say, and 0:29:54.040 --> 0:29:55.160 you know, notwithstanding the. 0:29:55.400 --> 0:30:01.560 The early like electric records of the sixties, which were 0:30:01.640 --> 0:30:05.680 more like demonstration records or that sort of thing, but 0:30:06.080 --> 0:30:11.280 like dare I say, like that might have been one 0:30:11.320 --> 0:30:15.520 of the very first electronica records, like just in terms 0:30:15.600 --> 0:30:21.640 of you using different frequencies and whatnot, Like what made 0:30:21.680 --> 0:30:25.240 you go from Night and Day from like bold conceptions 0:30:25.280 --> 0:30:27.400 to Explosions. 0:30:27.880 --> 0:30:32.240 Well, it actually, in my memory was not totally Night 0:30:32.280 --> 0:30:35.080 and Day, because they were kind of all related, and 0:30:35.120 --> 0:30:39.240 there were some elements in the Explosions album that I 0:30:39.280 --> 0:30:44.040 had already been experimenting around and that had gotten Quincy's attention. 0:30:44.920 --> 0:30:51.640 The two classical avant garde composers that participated in the 0:30:51.640 --> 0:30:56.040 Explosions album were Robert Ashley and Gordon Muma, and they 0:30:56.080 --> 0:31:02.040 were both exploring different versions of what at that time 0:31:02.800 --> 0:31:06.760 was called electronic music, but it was It was a 0:31:06.800 --> 0:31:10.760 combination of what was called music concrete, and that was 0:31:10.960 --> 0:31:17.520 taking just natural sounds like a train engine or birds 0:31:17.800 --> 0:31:22.120 or whatever, and then manipulating them with tape machines. There 0:31:22.200 --> 0:31:26.280 was no personal computer. Digital way we look at electronic 0:31:26.320 --> 0:31:29.000 music now didn't exist at that time. There was a 0:31:29.040 --> 0:31:33.160 lot of tape manipulation, and they did have oscillators, so 0:31:33.560 --> 0:31:37.080 there were some very very primitive what we now call 0:31:37.160 --> 0:31:39.720 synthesizers that were just beginning. 0:31:39.280 --> 0:31:43.840 To be put together. And what I tried to do with. 0:31:44.000 --> 0:31:50.040 Explosions is is I guess you could say it was 0:31:50.120 --> 0:31:54.920 similar to the way artists us backing track more recently. 0:31:55.000 --> 0:32:02.240 So this electronic tape of or samply something. 0:32:03.000 --> 0:32:09.360 Yes, so that's the sample plays or the backing try plays, 0:32:09.400 --> 0:32:12.680 and then we would improvise over the top of it 0:32:12.760 --> 0:32:15.800 in a more conventional jazz way. And so the two 0:32:15.840 --> 0:32:19.720 different elements would clash with each other, and that created 0:32:19.800 --> 0:32:26.320 the conflict or the gardeners. And it was all seemed 0:32:26.320 --> 0:32:29.880 to be all about pushing boundaries. What are the limits 0:32:29.920 --> 0:32:35.600 of what could be called music? A sound organized sound, chaos, 0:32:36.280 --> 0:32:42.000 And different people used the different approach. Sometimes it was 0:32:43.080 --> 0:32:49.040 anger and thumbing their nose at the audience. The idea 0:32:49.160 --> 0:32:52.840 of making an audience happy in the conventional sense or 0:32:52.880 --> 0:32:56.400 making them fall in love, they wanted to do the opposite. 0:32:56.480 --> 0:32:58.760 They wanted to make them so angry that they'd walk 0:32:58.800 --> 0:33:02.520 out of the theater with them. So there was all 0:33:02.680 --> 0:33:08.280 variations of that and debate about it and what's meaningful 0:33:08.640 --> 0:33:11.680 what isn't. So you had the people that loved it, 0:33:11.680 --> 0:33:14.400 but you had as many or more people that hated 0:33:14.440 --> 0:33:14.840 it and. 0:33:15.000 --> 0:33:17.520 Thought it was noise. And so. 0:33:18.960 --> 0:33:22.920 In my youth, I was fascinated by it. I actually 0:33:22.960 --> 0:33:27.040 loved it sometimes that and I always felt during that 0:33:27.160 --> 0:33:30.760 time that I had the power to change it because 0:33:30.800 --> 0:33:32.960 I could play conventional. 0:33:34.000 --> 0:33:34.440 Jazz. 0:33:35.280 --> 0:33:38.720 I liked to surprise my audience that just when they 0:33:38.760 --> 0:33:41.360 thought we were just playing some conventional bebop, all of 0:33:41.400 --> 0:33:45.160 a sudden, electric electronic sounds would come in and then 0:33:45.280 --> 0:33:48.720 we were suddenly in a completely different world where I'd 0:33:48.720 --> 0:33:52.520 be stroking the strings with my hand or getting a 0:33:52.680 --> 0:33:55.640 mallet and playing beating on the side of the piano, 0:33:55.840 --> 0:34:01.880 and we were part of the time seducing the audience 0:34:01.880 --> 0:34:04.880 and part of the time confronting them with. 0:34:06.840 --> 0:34:08.960 Surprise and making him deal with it. 0:34:09.480 --> 0:34:11.960 At that point, were you familiar with like artists of 0:34:12.000 --> 0:34:16.480 the time like a Raymond Scott or the Tonto guys 0:34:16.600 --> 0:34:22.719 or just any of those experimental synthesizer records. 0:34:23.239 --> 0:34:26.840 Yes, I was those two names, I don't remember, but 0:34:28.120 --> 0:34:33.320 I was more influenced by the people in the classical 0:34:33.360 --> 0:34:39.880 avoc guard world like John Cage and Stockhausen and ghost 0:34:40.160 --> 0:34:44.080 people that it was a different kind of experimentation in 0:34:44.160 --> 0:34:46.799 the jazz world. Don Ellis, the trumpet player, was also 0:34:46.920 --> 0:34:49.879 very involved on avac guarde music at that time, and 0:34:50.600 --> 0:34:54.480 there were the mob guys. When the MoG's emphasiser came up, 0:34:54.760 --> 0:34:58.160 came into being a little bit later. Actually, by that 0:34:58.520 --> 0:35:03.160 time I was sort of using interest frankly, the idea 0:35:03.200 --> 0:35:07.239 of making the audience hate me. It started to be 0:35:07.800 --> 0:35:10.360 so ob severe that I thought, well, I'll never be 0:35:10.400 --> 0:35:12.520 able to make a living if I make. 0:35:12.440 --> 0:35:15.400 My You're saying that you were going for more of 0:35:15.480 --> 0:35:19.120 like a Stravinsky make the audience hate me thing, or just. 0:35:21.040 --> 0:35:29.040 No, because Scherenberg might be a better example. Because Stravinsky's 0:35:30.239 --> 0:35:36.240 music people realized fairly quickly that it was just great, 0:35:36.520 --> 0:35:39.440 and it was they also rioted, you know, and. 0:35:40.040 --> 0:35:40.960 Had a melody. 0:35:41.040 --> 0:35:43.719 It had all of the things and it's survived as 0:35:43.760 --> 0:35:46.840 a as a real classic, even though the dissonance shocked 0:35:46.920 --> 0:35:49.759 people a little bit at the time, but it was 0:35:50.480 --> 0:35:57.160 cinematic it. I never never viewed him as av It 0:35:57.200 --> 0:36:02.120 was more, we say about. 0:36:02.560 --> 0:36:04.640 A provocateur, musical provocateur. 0:36:05.040 --> 0:36:09.000 He had come out of the Impressionist area era when 0:36:09.640 --> 0:36:14.040 when the Romantic era of the nineteenth centuries the gradually 0:36:14.440 --> 0:36:20.080 they began to get tired of tonal music and the 0:36:20.080 --> 0:36:26.480 tonal and conventional dissonance, and so the Impressionist era reveled WC. 0:36:27.040 --> 0:36:32.359 It was a blur and where's where's the tonic? So 0:36:32.560 --> 0:36:37.120 by Stravinsky's time, he was going further in that direction 0:36:37.880 --> 0:36:44.960 and more dissonance and a less provincial tonality, but still 0:36:46.120 --> 0:36:50.160 making the attempt to Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't 0:36:50.160 --> 0:36:53.600 think he wanted his audience to hate him like we 0:36:53.719 --> 0:36:57.759 were sort of doing at that time. It was it 0:36:57.800 --> 0:37:04.200 was fun and a temporary interest for me, just trying 0:37:04.239 --> 0:37:07.920 to learn what were the limits. And I learned just 0:37:07.920 --> 0:37:11.640 for myself that the limits that I wanted to go 0:37:11.800 --> 0:37:15.880 back to were far more conventional and I wasn't really 0:37:17.560 --> 0:37:21.759 getting it wasn't reaching my heart. The avant guarde side 0:37:21.760 --> 0:37:26.600 of that was a curiosity from my brain. But I 0:37:27.600 --> 0:37:31.360 more and more started to like the romantic side, and 0:37:31.520 --> 0:37:35.200 probably those four years I spent with Sara Van, she 0:37:35.640 --> 0:37:38.200 certainly wouldn't have let me play in the avant guarde. 0:37:38.080 --> 0:37:39.839 Kenna, right, Yeah, I was trying to imagine that. 0:37:40.320 --> 0:37:44.120 Yeah, I had to really play all the learned the 0:37:44.160 --> 0:37:47.360 standards and not only learn and learned the great voicings 0:37:47.400 --> 0:37:50.480 and everything so I could inspire her and that became 0:37:50.520 --> 0:37:52.640 my life. 0:37:55.760 --> 0:37:58.600 So why did it take almost a decade for you 0:37:58.680 --> 0:38:03.000 to get to your third album? Your run of your period, 0:38:03.040 --> 0:38:07.799 which you know, for most collectors believe that one is 0:38:07.840 --> 0:38:10.640 your They seem to think that's your first record, even 0:38:10.680 --> 0:38:14.040 though it's not. But just as the Bob James as 0:38:14.040 --> 0:38:17.440 we know, why did it take you to nineteen seventy 0:38:17.480 --> 0:38:18.280 four to start? 0:38:19.160 --> 0:38:20.160 You're a part of the. 0:38:20.120 --> 0:38:25.200 Story from the after explosions and after I kind of 0:38:26.400 --> 0:38:27.960 thinking that it was a dead end for me. 0:38:28.480 --> 0:38:31.000 It was immediately after that that I got the job 0:38:31.040 --> 0:38:31.640 with Sarah Vong. 0:38:32.040 --> 0:38:35.320 That was a four year thing, and by that time 0:38:35.440 --> 0:38:38.800 I had given up any notion of being a leader. 0:38:38.840 --> 0:38:41.799 When I first came to New York, I sort of 0:38:41.840 --> 0:38:43.240 came as the Bob James Trio. 0:38:43.360 --> 0:38:44.040 I've thought of. 0:38:44.040 --> 0:38:47.920 Myself as a jazz pianist and was thinking about trying 0:38:47.920 --> 0:38:52.480 to make a solo career. But I really liked a 0:38:52.680 --> 0:38:56.040 job with Sarah being an accompanist, and I started getting 0:38:56.120 --> 0:38:58.440 arranging jobs as a result of it, and I liked 0:38:58.600 --> 0:39:02.840 that provided a steadier income in New York, and I 0:39:02.920 --> 0:39:06.520 was starting to get arranging jobs. And by the time 0:39:06.560 --> 0:39:11.720 I got to nineteen seventy when I got the job 0:39:12.120 --> 0:39:15.000 to play on Quincy's album Walking in Space, which was 0:39:15.040 --> 0:39:20.880 my introduction to Creed Taylor. That gave me the opportunity 0:39:20.920 --> 0:39:23.040 for Creed Taylor to see what I could do, that 0:39:23.080 --> 0:39:27.359 I could write for large ensembles. And still by that time, 0:39:27.440 --> 0:39:29.920 I was not thinking of myself as a solo artist, 0:39:29.960 --> 0:39:32.000 and I didn't even think I was going to pursue it. 0:39:32.560 --> 0:39:35.360 How musical was Creed Taylor, Well. 0:39:35.239 --> 0:39:39.200 He definitely wasn't one going out in playing an instrument 0:39:39.440 --> 0:39:44.120 or conducting or arranging. He did have some training that 0:39:44.200 --> 0:39:47.359 I heard about only by reputation. I never saw him 0:39:47.400 --> 0:39:51.320 do it. I think you could describe him as a visionary. 0:39:51.920 --> 0:39:57.399 He had a definite idea of how he wanted his 0:39:57.600 --> 0:40:02.560 label to have a style, a sound, and a look, 0:40:03.080 --> 0:40:07.680 even his packaging and his choice of covers and everything 0:40:07.719 --> 0:40:13.839 about it. He had a very strong producer vision and 0:40:14.280 --> 0:40:19.400 so his the style of the one element of it 0:40:19.480 --> 0:40:21.960 that he talked to me a lout because he wanted 0:40:22.040 --> 0:40:24.440 me to be one of the ones helping him realize 0:40:24.440 --> 0:40:28.600 his vision. He was a very very passionate fan of 0:40:28.640 --> 0:40:31.200 the music and he had his favorites. He had his taste, 0:40:31.800 --> 0:40:35.560 and that that form his choices that he made throughout 0:40:35.560 --> 0:40:36.240 those years. 0:40:36.880 --> 0:40:40.560 But does he allow you to really have say, like 0:40:40.600 --> 0:40:44.160 I know that you started producing after the four out, 0:40:44.239 --> 0:40:47.440 like by yourself, but like, are you allowed to have 0:40:47.480 --> 0:40:48.840 say in these first war records? 0:40:49.120 --> 0:40:49.799 Definitely did. 0:40:49.960 --> 0:40:52.440 I had a lot to say, And you mentioned value 0:40:52.440 --> 0:40:55.120 of the shadows right off the bat, which was completely 0:40:55.239 --> 0:41:01.800 me going as almost as avour guarde as I would 0:41:01.800 --> 0:41:06.760 have a project of his where he was a producer. 0:41:07.400 --> 0:41:11.200 But he gave me a lot of leeway and the arrangements. 0:41:12.200 --> 0:41:15.920 The basic thing that gave me that job early on 0:41:16.160 --> 0:41:20.200 working with him was one of his stylistic things was 0:41:20.239 --> 0:41:23.200 to take a classical theme that he thought that people 0:41:23.360 --> 0:41:30.040 would recognize that and then converted into having jazz performers reinterpreted, 0:41:30.640 --> 0:41:35.920 and that became such a trademark for him almost And 0:41:36.000 --> 0:41:39.000 when he saw that I was able to work with 0:41:39.040 --> 0:41:43.040 classical music and rearrange it and all that, that's led 0:41:43.080 --> 0:41:46.040 me down that path with him. 0:41:47.160 --> 0:41:50.120 Okay, So take something like A Night on Bald Mountain, 0:41:50.880 --> 0:41:52.799 which you know, if you're a Disney fan, you know 0:41:52.840 --> 0:41:57.440 that from Fantasia. I'll admit that I met Night on 0:41:57.520 --> 0:42:00.600 Bald Mountain because it was on side three of Saturday 0:42:00.640 --> 0:42:01.120 Night Fever. 0:42:02.200 --> 0:42:02.400 You know. 0:42:02.400 --> 0:42:04.280 I was also like seven years old when it came out. 0:42:04.760 --> 0:42:11.040 But when you're doing these interpolations of classical music into jazz, one, 0:42:11.160 --> 0:42:14.000 are you doing all the arranging? And how many man 0:42:14.040 --> 0:42:18.879 hours does it take for you to write each part? 0:42:18.920 --> 0:42:21.160 Because you're you know, I'm assuming that you're doing these 0:42:21.239 --> 0:42:27.120 arrangements for your brass section, your string sector, like for 0:42:27.360 --> 0:42:31.120 one song, how many man hours does it take for 0:42:31.200 --> 0:42:33.800 you to write these arrangements out a lot. 0:42:34.920 --> 0:42:37.319 I was fast, and you kind of had to be. 0:42:37.960 --> 0:42:43.359 I grew up watching the Great Arrangers, and Quincy had 0:42:43.400 --> 0:42:46.440 told me about that music copy service that I mentioned 0:42:46.440 --> 0:42:49.320 about earlier, and I would go in there and watch 0:42:49.440 --> 0:42:50.279 how they would work. 0:42:50.360 --> 0:42:53.200 And there were people like Billy buyer's and there were 0:42:53.200 --> 0:42:55.640 the people that got a lot of the jobs, and 0:42:55.719 --> 0:42:58.600 I saw how they did their scores and how they 0:42:58.640 --> 0:43:01.840 set up the scores that would make it easier for 0:43:01.880 --> 0:43:06.160 the copyists to copy the parts and well organized and everything, 0:43:06.200 --> 0:43:09.520 because very often there were deadlines and we had to 0:43:09.600 --> 0:43:13.440 deliver half a dozen charts overnight for the session the 0:43:13.480 --> 0:43:17.680 next day. So I learned to be fast, and I 0:43:17.840 --> 0:43:20.760 definitely wasn't the fastest, but I could put something together 0:43:20.840 --> 0:43:26.319 pretty quickly. And I had studied in college, so the 0:43:26.400 --> 0:43:28.840 part of that whole process was getting to know the 0:43:28.960 --> 0:43:32.279 range of the instruments and the kind of ways that 0:43:32.360 --> 0:43:35.080 you could write for an instrument that would make that 0:43:35.160 --> 0:43:39.240 player sound better if you kept it in the right range. 0:43:40.360 --> 0:43:45.399 Lots and lots of stuff like that, and the fact 0:43:45.440 --> 0:43:49.239 that I could do it allowed pre Taylor to give 0:43:49.280 --> 0:43:52.759 me directions depending upon what classical piece he wanted me 0:43:52.800 --> 0:43:55.120 to reinterpret. He'd give me some ideas about it, but 0:43:55.160 --> 0:43:59.879 then he'd leave me on my own to execute it. 0:44:01.040 --> 0:44:04.239 And the nine on Mountain nine on ball Mountain chart 0:44:04.320 --> 0:44:08.359 that I did, and Steve Gadd played the drum part, 0:44:08.400 --> 0:44:11.239 it was all about featuring him at that time. 0:44:11.320 --> 0:44:13.719 I just kind of know him, and I knew he 0:44:13.760 --> 0:44:15.239 could read whatever I. 0:44:15.239 --> 0:44:17.200 Put in front of him, but keep it in the 0:44:17.239 --> 0:44:24.440 spirit of free flowing jazz playing. And even with that arrangement, 0:44:25.160 --> 0:44:28.920 we went in first with the rhythm section. I recorded 0:44:28.920 --> 0:44:32.800 that and I refined to my score after that, somewhat 0:44:32.840 --> 0:44:35.879 based upon the fills that Steve would play. I used 0:44:35.880 --> 0:44:41.800 to like to do the vert rather than give Steve 0:44:41.880 --> 0:44:43.920 all them notes with all those hits on it, you know, 0:44:44.000 --> 0:44:48.200 the sycopatient things. He would just play loose, and I 0:44:48.280 --> 0:44:54.080 would him and yeah, and when he would hit those fills, 0:44:54.360 --> 0:44:57.080 I would make that the brass you know, no, that 0:44:57.280 --> 0:44:59.759 make it sound like he was he was answering the 0:44:59.800 --> 0:45:03.440 brea arrangement when actually and some of that stuff he 0:45:03.880 --> 0:45:08.800 wrote it and it was tight and in version end version, 0:45:08.840 --> 0:45:12.080 because the way he was playing it was loose, you. 0:45:12.040 --> 0:45:12.560 Know what I mean. 0:45:13.760 --> 0:45:17.719 I knew Steve Gadd was a monster, but in my mind, okay, now, 0:45:17.760 --> 0:45:20.240 it makes total sense that you do your rhythm section first, 0:45:20.239 --> 0:45:22.960 and then you build around what your rhythm section does and. 0:45:22.960 --> 0:45:28.840 Then yeah, in order that way, there had to be 0:45:28.880 --> 0:45:34.400 a pretty specific chart too, because it wasn't just a 0:45:34.440 --> 0:45:38.719 simple lead sheet for Steve and the bass player Gary King. 0:45:39.239 --> 0:45:42.319 All that I had on that particular piece, it was 0:45:43.120 --> 0:45:46.520 a lot was written out, but within that, since we 0:45:46.560 --> 0:45:49.759 didn't have a whole brass section in the studio, there 0:45:49.800 --> 0:45:53.319 was a kind of flexibility that we could use to 0:45:53.360 --> 0:45:56.319 get the groove happening and to make it so that 0:45:56.440 --> 0:45:59.759 it wasn't too too tight and too conservative in the 0:45:59.800 --> 0:46:02.839 way we played it. So my memory of what we 0:46:02.840 --> 0:46:07.400 were trying to do was both have a be a 0:46:07.520 --> 0:46:11.800 very specific chart but also the feel of a loose, 0:46:11.880 --> 0:46:14.000 improvised jazz performance. 0:46:15.040 --> 0:46:18.360 Your personnel, you know, it reads like a just a 0:46:19.120 --> 0:46:22.720 reads like a who's who of just monsters. Of course 0:46:22.800 --> 0:46:25.399 you know they're monster musicians now, but back then I'm 0:46:25.440 --> 0:46:31.160 assuming that they were just you know, dudes that played music. 0:46:31.640 --> 0:46:36.160 How did you go about gathering the personnels for your record? 0:46:36.160 --> 0:46:39.960 Because like it's the cast, it's just and leading into 0:46:40.000 --> 0:46:43.040 tap and z. It's just Yes, it's so much about 0:46:43.360 --> 0:46:46.360 who's around you. So yeah, I ask you a question, please, sorry. 0:46:46.160 --> 0:46:49.600 Yes, So, how did how did you come across like 0:46:49.840 --> 0:46:53.120 the Ralph McDonald's of the world, the Grover Washington genius 0:46:53.160 --> 0:46:57.279 of the world, the Wayne Yeah, Steve Gary. 0:46:58.000 --> 0:47:00.440 I don't think it's any different from what you're world 0:47:00.560 --> 0:47:04.080 is now. New York is a great place, and that's 0:47:04.120 --> 0:47:09.200 where maybe not quite as dominant as it was in 0:47:09.239 --> 0:47:13.719 the nineteen seventies when I was doing my thing, but 0:47:13.840 --> 0:47:18.399 everybody comes to New York too, and that's where most 0:47:18.400 --> 0:47:21.279 of the gigs were, and by word of mouth, you 0:47:21.360 --> 0:47:25.760 start to learn who are the best people. Once I 0:47:25.800 --> 0:47:32.799 got onto Retailer's list, he had his favorites, but the 0:47:34.640 --> 0:47:37.960 everybody was available to you. You could get George Benson 0:47:38.000 --> 0:47:40.480 to play guitar on you could get Ray Brown to 0:47:40.520 --> 0:47:44.520 play bass, and you could get whoever you want because 0:47:44.560 --> 0:47:48.080 it was New York. And then it just became a 0:47:48.120 --> 0:47:52.440 matter of casting. And I loved that whole aspect all 0:47:52.480 --> 0:47:56.759 through my life. I love the conversations about who's the 0:47:56.800 --> 0:48:02.399 new guy or gal, who who's going to inspire you? 0:48:04.120 --> 0:48:08.040 And so you keep searching, and every month we would 0:48:08.080 --> 0:48:12.560 find some new name that got in the door, and 0:48:12.640 --> 0:48:14.920 you'd want to use them, and the best of them 0:48:15.040 --> 0:48:17.239 became the people that we're talking about now. 0:48:17.840 --> 0:48:18.799 As a result of that. 0:48:19.320 --> 0:48:22.040 Did you and David Matthews ever collaborate at any time? 0:48:23.040 --> 0:48:26.480 No, the other David Matthews. 0:48:26.600 --> 0:48:34.880 There there's the Man, but the arranger Dave. It was 0:48:34.920 --> 0:48:38.319 one of those things, like Don Sebeski, I rarely was 0:48:38.760 --> 0:48:42.359 around him. If he got the job, I didn't, and 0:48:42.600 --> 0:48:45.360 I got the job he didn't, So there was usually 0:48:45.360 --> 0:48:49.560 only one of us on any particular project. I did 0:48:49.600 --> 0:48:52.760 get hired as a pianist for some of Don Sebeski's stuff, 0:48:52.760 --> 0:48:58.520 so I got to know him. But the the other arrangers, 0:48:58.880 --> 0:49:02.080 Robert Friedman I remember, and some of these other people 0:49:02.960 --> 0:49:06.640 that I knew them by reputation, but rarely it had 0:49:06.640 --> 0:49:09.760 a chance to be working on the same project. 0:49:09.920 --> 0:49:15.160 All right, just the sequencing of your first album is 0:49:15.239 --> 0:49:20.400 just off the chain. And I gotta know whose idea 0:49:20.560 --> 0:49:22.840 was it to make such a radical version of in 0:49:22.920 --> 0:49:27.240 the Garden, Because you know, when I hear in the Garden, 0:49:27.360 --> 0:49:31.600 it's either it's either used for wedding purposes, you know, 0:49:31.600 --> 0:49:34.200 it's always the it's always the pre song that's played 0:49:35.080 --> 0:49:37.799 right before here comes the Bride or whatever. So I 0:49:37.920 --> 0:49:43.680 totally wasn't expecting. It's almost like three things in one, 0:49:44.200 --> 0:49:49.280 like you know, it's part rockabillious bluegrass, but it's also 0:49:49.800 --> 0:49:55.160 jazzy and it's avant garde, Like do you just tell 0:49:55.200 --> 0:49:57.200 us the genesis of that or was it just like 0:49:57.560 --> 0:49:58.880 roll the tape, I got an idea. 0:49:59.360 --> 0:50:02.120 Well, thank you for describing it that way, and even 0:50:02.160 --> 0:50:07.000 thank you thank you for remembering it, because I do 0:50:07.640 --> 0:50:10.440 sort of remember the day that I came into Cretaylor's 0:50:10.480 --> 0:50:14.040 office and talked about wanting to do it, uh, to 0:50:14.120 --> 0:50:19.640 do that composition. And we had already discussed a lot 0:50:19.800 --> 0:50:23.800 about his basic theory that if if a jazz artist 0:50:23.840 --> 0:50:26.760 took a classical theme, they would turn it into something else, 0:50:27.160 --> 0:50:29.680 and that was part of his stylistic thing. 0:50:30.239 --> 0:50:33.360 So the real classical name, which is also. 0:50:33.640 --> 0:50:35.640 I'm darning in blank on it now, that I ended 0:50:35.719 --> 0:50:39.680 up calling in the Garden came from a very well 0:50:39.719 --> 0:50:46.120 known classical piece, And at that time I was using 0:50:46.560 --> 0:50:51.759 humor Crackt a lot. The really great studio guitarist but 0:50:52.080 --> 0:50:53.719 who had a. 0:50:53.280 --> 0:50:55.200 He did dueling banjos right. 0:50:55.680 --> 0:51:03.560 Yes, yeah, deliverance yeah. So he played bad joe guitar, 0:51:04.320 --> 0:51:08.600 and he was very authentic in those styles. So I 0:51:08.680 --> 0:51:13.880 knew that I could get a kind of raw, almost 0:51:14.000 --> 0:51:17.920 country kind of sound out of him and make that 0:51:18.360 --> 0:51:22.279 piece eclectic. We didn't know exactly where we were going 0:51:22.320 --> 0:51:25.360 with there's a lot of experimentation in the studio and 0:51:25.440 --> 0:51:29.160 crew Taylor gave me the flexibility to experiment with that 0:51:29.400 --> 0:51:32.600 and to come up with something unique. 0:51:32.800 --> 0:51:37.799 It's almost like, you know what that in particular, if 0:51:37.800 --> 0:51:41.400 a jazz artist had a public enemy, like that's the thing, like, 0:51:41.440 --> 0:51:44.200 you're so hip hop without The only only person that 0:51:44.239 --> 0:51:46.800 I could describe that way was Prince. Like before Prince 0:51:46.920 --> 0:51:51.759 purposely started rapping, everything about Prince was hip hop in 0:51:51.840 --> 0:51:54.640 terms of like drum programming and all that stuff. But 0:51:55.719 --> 0:51:58.080 I mean just the fact that you're mixing all these 0:51:58.120 --> 0:52:02.879 genres in one before it actually gets a home or 0:52:03.120 --> 0:52:06.960 some sort of identity, is you know, is kind of 0:52:06.960 --> 0:52:07.680 mind blowing. 0:52:08.400 --> 0:52:09.080 I mean, at the. 0:52:09.080 --> 0:52:14.480 Time, were you nervous or worried about what critics were 0:52:14.480 --> 0:52:19.080 going to receive this as your downbeats your you know whatever? 0:52:19.200 --> 0:52:24.080 The gods of critics of jazz critics were like, if 0:52:24.080 --> 0:52:29.600 you're not following a certain mold of what is deemed 0:52:29.640 --> 0:52:33.880 acceptable status quo, are you nervous about this or was 0:52:33.920 --> 0:52:36.960 the shield of CTI enough to I think. 0:52:37.400 --> 0:52:40.040 I can safely say that I was not nervous about it. 0:52:40.239 --> 0:52:45.439 If anything, I was not reluctant to be confrontational and 0:52:45.520 --> 0:52:50.000 to not give critics any easy thing to talk about, 0:52:50.640 --> 0:52:53.680 and I guess I always had a little bit of 0:52:53.719 --> 0:52:57.920 love hate relationship with them, and I got more hate 0:52:57.960 --> 0:53:02.880 than I did love times that so I ended up 0:53:02.920 --> 0:53:05.400 saying who cares, and I go, it's my job to 0:53:05.480 --> 0:53:08.480 do it at their job to say what they think 0:53:09.040 --> 0:53:11.799 about it. And I was not concerned about that at 0:53:11.800 --> 0:53:15.840 that time. Even forget about critics, I was not that 0:53:16.040 --> 0:53:20.680 concerned about retailer. He was my boss, but I wanted 0:53:20.719 --> 0:53:23.600 to confront him too and not necessarily come in with 0:53:23.680 --> 0:53:29.480 exactly what he expected. Bravery, I guess, has always been 0:53:29.520 --> 0:53:33.719 something that I feel like you have to stay with 0:53:33.760 --> 0:53:38.799 your vision no matter whether people will agree with it 0:53:38.920 --> 0:53:41.960 or not. And on the one album we were talking about, 0:53:42.719 --> 0:53:46.399 I was not thinking at that time as that as 0:53:46.440 --> 0:53:50.120 a solo career album for myself. I didn't think I 0:53:50.160 --> 0:53:54.399 would have one, and Creed said it was time because 0:53:54.400 --> 0:53:57.400 I'd done so many projects for him with Grover Washington 0:53:57.480 --> 0:54:02.160 and various other artists. I felt my identity at CTI 0:54:02.400 --> 0:54:06.400 was a ranger, and by doing a whole bunch of different, 0:54:07.000 --> 0:54:09.920 eclectic kind of stuff, I was hoping to use that 0:54:10.000 --> 0:54:11.840 as like an audition to get. 0:54:11.680 --> 0:54:14.319 More arranging jobs, and the more of a. 0:54:14.080 --> 0:54:17.279 Variety that I could show as an orchestrator, I could 0:54:18.280 --> 0:54:22.000 present it to other clients, and it was my good 0:54:22.080 --> 0:54:24.759 fortune that I had some commercial success with it that 0:54:24.880 --> 0:54:30.719 I was almost forced into considering a solo career after that. 0:54:31.239 --> 0:54:33.480 Can I share with you a little bit about Nautilus 0:54:33.520 --> 0:54:38.000 on that same album? Yeah, next, talking so many people 0:54:38.040 --> 0:54:41.640 about it and actually confronting with Wu Tank Clan guys 0:54:41.640 --> 0:54:42.480 of various. 0:54:42.239 --> 0:54:44.600 People about why. 0:54:44.760 --> 0:54:47.719 You know, I kept asking the question why did Nautilists 0:54:47.920 --> 0:54:49.800 get sampled by so many people? 0:54:49.960 --> 0:54:50.640 What was it? 0:54:51.840 --> 0:54:54.960 And I was able to share the story on that 0:54:55.040 --> 0:55:00.360 same one album you asked about the sequencing US was 0:55:00.360 --> 0:55:04.520 the last cut on side B kind of deliberately because 0:55:04.560 --> 0:55:08.879 it was almost a throwaway and Pree Taylor knew that 0:55:09.120 --> 0:55:11.680 the other cuts would get the attention at that time. 0:55:12.239 --> 0:55:18.799 So traditionally with the LP you always made put your 0:55:18.800 --> 0:55:21.960 weakest cuts on the center of the last cut on 0:55:22.000 --> 0:55:23.960 the side of an album because the grooves were narrower. 0:55:24.080 --> 0:55:27.000 You know, you've got your best bass sound on the 0:55:27.080 --> 0:55:31.839 on the outside cuts. So nobody paid attention Nautilus and 0:55:31.920 --> 0:55:36.280 then Upper ten or fifteen years later, I started hearing 0:55:36.440 --> 0:55:41.840 back that that that the hip hop producers were grabbing 0:55:41.920 --> 0:55:45.160 onto it and I could not. I knew it had 0:55:45.239 --> 0:55:49.560 a good baseline, and Ice Muhammad playing drums of groove 0:55:49.680 --> 0:55:53.400 was there, so I got that, but it just seemed 0:55:53.400 --> 0:55:56.040 like there had to be something else about it that 0:55:57.000 --> 0:55:59.560 it made it just keep showing up over and over 0:55:59.760 --> 0:56:04.200 and still does even to this day. So in a 0:56:04.239 --> 0:56:08.520 conversation with Rizza on an interview that he was doing, 0:56:09.280 --> 0:56:13.960 suddenly something clicked in for me that I had kind 0:56:13.960 --> 0:56:16.640 of not been paying attention to it at all. But 0:56:16.800 --> 0:56:22.240 it wasn't just a simple rhythm section groove that Price 0:56:22.320 --> 0:56:25.480 and Gary King were laying down. I had written a 0:56:25.600 --> 0:56:28.920 pretty elaborate string arrangement for fun. 0:56:30.520 --> 0:56:32.200 Let Me do It. There was enough budget that. 0:56:32.160 --> 0:56:35.200 I could hire a string section and write the arrangement, 0:56:35.560 --> 0:56:42.239 and there was this kind of mysterious, ethereal kind of 0:56:42.320 --> 0:56:47.560 sound that permeated that track, And if anything, I would 0:56:47.560 --> 0:56:50.000 have thought it would have made it less commercial because 0:56:50.800 --> 0:56:53.840 it didn't fit in with the other standard funk type 0:56:53.840 --> 0:56:57.040 of a string arrangement that I might have written. But 0:56:58.360 --> 0:57:01.960 as I've recently talk to the people in the hip 0:57:02.000 --> 0:57:06.640 hop community that that keep talking about that as being 0:57:06.840 --> 0:57:10.840 one of the essential tracts that have been sampled the most. 0:57:11.840 --> 0:57:15.320 I think it might be a combination of that groove 0:57:16.080 --> 0:57:23.720 and this almost classical blurry orchestration that's over the top 0:57:23.760 --> 0:57:24.920 of the texture. 0:57:25.520 --> 0:57:25.720 Yeah. 0:57:25.800 --> 0:57:28.840 Texture, it's that's why I say you're the king of textures. 0:57:28.920 --> 0:57:33.800 Like and I can't describe it, but it's you know, 0:57:33.920 --> 0:57:38.520 somehow you manage like I know, you don't intentionally say, Okay, 0:57:38.600 --> 0:57:42.360 let me create a song that somehow in six years 0:57:43.640 --> 0:57:46.080 will hit another generation, like no one thinks that. Like 0:57:46.440 --> 0:57:49.200 maybe a musician like me now will think that, like, Okay, 0:57:49.200 --> 0:57:52.479 what I do now, maybe twenty years from now it'll 0:57:52.480 --> 0:57:57.120 be in vogue. But you know, I think at the 0:57:57.200 --> 0:58:00.840 end of the day, you caught a compel selling performance 0:58:00.920 --> 0:58:06.400 with musicians that just were tightly locked. And the fact 0:58:06.440 --> 0:58:08.480 that you didn't plan it even makes it better because 0:58:08.600 --> 0:58:12.000 some of the best success stories and music all come 0:58:12.040 --> 0:58:16.200 from people that aren't calculating. Here's lightning in a bottle, 0:58:16.240 --> 0:58:18.200 you know, like Michael Jackson trying to follow up thriller 0:58:18.240 --> 0:58:20.480 like I'm gonna sell a hundred millionaires, Like you can't. 0:58:21.360 --> 0:58:23.320 You can't capture lightning in the bottle that way. It 0:58:23.440 --> 0:58:24.760 just happens or it doesn't happen. 0:58:25.160 --> 0:58:29.240 So yeah, I totally believe it. And that's why I've always. 0:58:30.800 --> 0:58:34.000 Tried to just enjoy the process of doing it and 0:58:34.280 --> 0:58:37.560 let whatever comes out of that happen. If you're passionate 0:58:37.920 --> 0:58:40.720 and if you're trying your best to get the best people, 0:58:41.360 --> 0:58:44.360 write the best arrangement, play the best solo, just do 0:58:44.480 --> 0:58:49.280 your best and keep trying to make the level higher. 0:58:49.320 --> 0:58:53.400 In that way, then you're still enjoying that even if 0:58:53.400 --> 0:58:57.920 it isn't successful, You've had that pleasure and privilege to 0:58:59.120 --> 0:59:06.800 make music and uh, and go through that process. 0:59:07.520 --> 0:59:13.520 You know, around eighty seven when you know Peter Piper 0:59:13.600 --> 0:59:17.440 is coming out the gate, which you know I'll probably 0:59:17.640 --> 0:59:20.160 I mean, you say, Fante, that's probably one of the 0:59:20.160 --> 0:59:27.600 first out the gate, uh, Bob Team samples, Yeah yeah yeah, 0:59:27.640 --> 0:59:32.080 so eighties yeah yeah yeah. So when when this is 0:59:32.080 --> 0:59:35.640 coming out in eighty six, eighty seven and whatnot, what 0:59:35.840 --> 0:59:38.680 is your immediate thought of what's happening? 0:59:39.160 --> 0:59:42.640 I believe my first memory was Jesse Jeff and the 0:59:42.640 --> 0:59:43.560 Fresh Prince. 0:59:43.400 --> 0:59:47.280 And they touch a jazz right. 0:59:47.720 --> 0:59:51.600 They took my son West yesterday and the way they 0:59:51.640 --> 0:59:54.160 did it at that time, because I wasn't following what 0:59:54.400 --> 0:59:54.920 was going on. 0:59:54.880 --> 0:59:56.520 In hip hop at all? 0:59:57.680 --> 1:00:00.120 But I found out about it after the fact and 1:00:00.440 --> 1:00:04.240 I listened to it, and yes, I was shocked. What 1:00:04.320 --> 1:00:06.880 the heck, you know, because it was just my record 1:00:06.880 --> 1:00:09.240 that played. It wasn't it wasn't even a loop or 1:00:09.240 --> 1:00:13.280 a chunk, right, and you could hear my melody, my composition. 1:00:13.880 --> 1:00:16.240 And suddenly I look at this album and it has 1:00:16.240 --> 1:00:16.920 a new title. 1:00:17.320 --> 1:00:19.520 They made it into a new song and they call 1:00:19.560 --> 1:00:22.640 it something else, and I'm thinking, wait, wait a minute, 1:00:22.640 --> 1:00:23.440 you know this is not. 1:00:23.600 --> 1:00:25.440 Right, what's going on here? 1:00:26.000 --> 1:00:28.640 And one of the first things back then that came 1:00:28.680 --> 1:00:32.920 into my mind is, hey, if they can do that, 1:00:33.160 --> 1:00:40.040 if Jessie, Jeff and Will Smith could just wrap over 1:00:40.080 --> 1:00:42.320 the top of my record, well I'll go out and 1:00:42.320 --> 1:00:44.800 get myself a Frank Sinatra record and I'll play some 1:00:44.840 --> 1:00:46.280 piano over the top of it. 1:00:46.200 --> 1:00:50.760 And I'll change the time from you know, from I 1:00:50.840 --> 1:00:51.200 left my. 1:00:51.240 --> 1:00:54.840 Heart, just go I'll call it Bob James something or 1:00:54.880 --> 1:00:55.520 other whatever. 1:00:56.040 --> 1:01:01.200 And I knew you couldst face does that, by the way, So. 1:01:02.320 --> 1:01:08.920 Times have changed, but that was my first reaction. And also, but. 1:01:08.960 --> 1:01:12.120 In your mind, you didn't think like some fourteen year 1:01:12.160 --> 1:01:17.680 old or fifteen year old is hearing that and now 1:01:17.720 --> 1:01:20.240 looking at their parents' record collection, like, wait, I have that, 1:01:20.440 --> 1:01:26.120 and then now you have new fans not yet okay. 1:01:26.320 --> 1:01:29.120 Eventually, you know, there's a lot of conversation about it. 1:01:29.160 --> 1:01:32.520 And if it had been just a fluke, I would 1:01:32.520 --> 1:01:37.800 have considered it more as a legal matter. And because 1:01:38.000 --> 1:01:44.280 throughout my sort of music business knowledge career, I have 1:01:44.560 --> 1:01:49.360 felt that copyrights and the protection of them are our 1:01:49.600 --> 1:01:51.840 most powerful. 1:01:51.560 --> 1:01:53.200 Weapon against big business. 1:01:54.280 --> 1:01:57.640 The copyright itself, the ownership of it, the control of 1:01:57.680 --> 1:02:03.720 it so that that you have some control. 1:02:03.480 --> 1:02:07.040 Over your destiny. Is was a very big deal for me. 1:02:07.240 --> 1:02:09.760 I fought for it in all of my contracts, and 1:02:09.800 --> 1:02:13.240 the only way that you can protect it is is 1:02:13.280 --> 1:02:16.080 by going to bat for it and not let people 1:02:17.320 --> 1:02:20.400 played your eyes or fraudulently steal it. 1:02:21.000 --> 1:02:23.160 So so that was really. 1:02:22.880 --> 1:02:26.040 Basic before I even was aware of what was going 1:02:26.080 --> 1:02:33.760 on in the hip hop world, and the whole structure 1:02:33.800 --> 1:02:37.320 of the legal thing hadn't happened yet where where you 1:02:37.360 --> 1:02:41.040 could figure out a reasonableare way to license and all 1:02:41.080 --> 1:02:46.280 those So, yeah, exactly, so you hear that happening, and 1:02:46.400 --> 1:02:51.800 I owned my recording of Westchester Lady and I and 1:02:51.840 --> 1:02:55.920 the compositions, so I had to fight for it, and 1:02:56.000 --> 1:02:59.840 I did, and that sort of started me off and 1:03:00.240 --> 1:03:01.920 world that at that time I thought it was a 1:03:02.000 --> 1:03:04.520 one off thing and that I would just have to 1:03:04.880 --> 1:03:07.760 try to do my best to be compensated properly and 1:03:07.800 --> 1:03:12.640 then go on about my business. But it proved that 1:03:13.240 --> 1:03:17.680 it wasn't an isolated thing, and not only did the 1:03:17.720 --> 1:03:22.920 field get bigger and bigger, but simply my music kept happening. 1:03:23.600 --> 1:03:27.760 So I had to make a decision about how to 1:03:27.800 --> 1:03:33.320 handle that, and eventually, yes, it became a very amazing 1:03:33.400 --> 1:03:37.200 deal that my own music got heard a lot more 1:03:37.240 --> 1:03:39.760 as a result of my name being associated in the 1:03:39.840 --> 1:03:43.240 hip hop community. So I ended up being very grateful 1:03:43.320 --> 1:03:46.760 for it, but always mixed feelings. 1:03:47.080 --> 1:03:53.280 Did you notice an immediate paradigm shift and reaction? Whereas like, 1:03:53.320 --> 1:03:55.840 if you start the intro to Nautilus back in nineteen 1:03:55.840 --> 1:04:00.480 seventy four, it probably wouldn't elicit the screams of oh 1:04:00.520 --> 1:04:04.280 shit like that. I'm certain that happened at Blue Note 1:04:04.800 --> 1:04:07.120 last week when you played there. 1:04:08.200 --> 1:04:13.120 Yes, and as drastic change has happened, I have so 1:04:13.320 --> 1:04:21.440 much appreciation and new respect, new desire to confront. 1:04:20.920 --> 1:04:22.400 This whole phenomenon. 1:04:25.240 --> 1:04:29.840 I want, as a copyright holder and as a composer 1:04:29.880 --> 1:04:33.280 who has fought hard to keep the rights to my music, 1:04:33.840 --> 1:04:35.840 I want to be one of the people in the 1:04:35.920 --> 1:04:41.360 music community that educates young people to learn about that, 1:04:41.480 --> 1:04:45.520 to learn about the business, to learn that these creations 1:04:46.360 --> 1:04:49.160 need to be protected and they need to be identified 1:04:49.200 --> 1:04:54.080 in the right way and entered into the legal part 1:04:54.080 --> 1:04:58.919 of the music business in a legitimate way. So I've 1:04:59.120 --> 1:04:59.920 kept fighting for that. 1:05:00.080 --> 1:05:01.440 Uh. 1:05:01.520 --> 1:05:07.760 But as I have learned more about the sample usage, 1:05:08.080 --> 1:05:13.640 I confronted Rizza and I sort of actually confronted DJ 1:05:13.800 --> 1:05:17.360 j Jeff too, And there was a new cut on 1:05:17.360 --> 1:05:19.840 my album be coming out in the spring that is 1:05:19.880 --> 1:05:26.880 a collaboration with djj Jeff where it's like let by 1:05:26.920 --> 1:05:28.920 Gones be by Gones were. 1:05:30.720 --> 1:05:33.280 Never were in bed together with the track. 1:05:33.360 --> 1:05:36.520 You know, we collaborated, and I'm very happy that we're 1:05:36.520 --> 1:05:42.160 able to do that, and it demonstrates that we're all 1:05:42.200 --> 1:05:46.000 in the music business together. But in attempting to actually 1:05:46.280 --> 1:05:50.560 confront this issue for me, which is when they took 1:05:50.680 --> 1:05:54.560 Nautilus or take Me to the Marty Ground and redid 1:05:54.600 --> 1:06:00.080 it or used it, it was my creativity that it 1:06:00.600 --> 1:06:03.960 was in this chunk or in this recording, and I 1:06:04.080 --> 1:06:08.040 was not in the studio to defend myself artistically. 1:06:08.480 --> 1:06:10.680 And as I began to hear my music being. 1:06:10.520 --> 1:06:13.720 Sample more and more the chunks of it were taken 1:06:13.880 --> 1:06:19.040 in all kinds of different ways, manipulated more drastically, tempo chains, 1:06:19.160 --> 1:06:21.800 speed sped up, slowed down the story. 1:06:24.760 --> 1:06:26.600 Only I didn't have any control over. 1:06:26.480 --> 1:06:29.000 The creativity right right. 1:06:28.840 --> 1:06:31.240 I'm not there, so they do whatever they want. So 1:06:31.400 --> 1:06:33.800 I began to think if I could be in the 1:06:33.840 --> 1:06:36.919 same room doing my thing while they did their thing, 1:06:37.720 --> 1:06:39.640 a different result could come out of it, where I 1:06:39.680 --> 1:06:42.840 would actually be at least be able to say, well, 1:06:42.840 --> 1:06:43.160 wait a. 1:06:43.160 --> 1:06:46.320 Minute, don't change this, or something like that. 1:06:46.960 --> 1:06:51.840 So or five days, two weeks ago, I was in 1:06:52.320 --> 1:06:56.440 Riz's studio and we did pretty much exactly that. He 1:06:56.520 --> 1:06:59.120 did his thing and I did my thing, And a 1:06:59.120 --> 1:07:02.560 couple of times I would do a kind of conventional 1:07:03.200 --> 1:07:07.120 jazz melodic thing, or a bassline thing or something like that, 1:07:07.680 --> 1:07:12.360 and he would hear some very small chunk of it 1:07:12.840 --> 1:07:15.720 and he would ask his engineer, stops right there and 1:07:16.040 --> 1:07:21.160 take just these two beats, And suddenly my conventional melody 1:07:21.240 --> 1:07:27.480 had become some completely new rhythm that I wouldn't have 1:07:27.880 --> 1:07:29.600 thought of in a million years. 1:07:30.200 --> 1:07:32.080 And now we're confronting each other. 1:07:32.520 --> 1:07:35.480 Either I have to be strong enough to say, you know, 1:07:35.760 --> 1:07:39.360 stay away from that, or or go along with it. 1:07:40.320 --> 1:07:44.600 Fante, are you thinking about the guitar center beat right now? 1:07:48.520 --> 1:07:52.520 I hope it's not that I think, but the guitars 1:07:52.520 --> 1:07:55.080 that would beat that's a whole other, you know. 1:07:55.240 --> 1:07:58.880 For me, For me a person who takes that, it 1:07:58.920 --> 1:08:02.600 makes I feel like someone's gonna flip it, like either 1:08:02.800 --> 1:08:03.920 vitamin D or something. 1:08:04.720 --> 1:08:05.360 You make it hard. 1:08:06.200 --> 1:08:07.480 It's inside joke. 1:08:08.320 --> 1:08:12.160 It's one of his most like unorthodox creations I've ever 1:08:12.160 --> 1:08:15.160 heard of my life. Ze When I when I heard 1:08:15.160 --> 1:08:17.960 you two were collaborating, the first thing I thought about was, okay, 1:08:18.000 --> 1:08:21.160 the guitar set beat, Bob. 1:08:21.240 --> 1:08:25.080 When you recall, do you remember the reasons why you 1:08:25.240 --> 1:08:27.559 cleared Dayton off my puncher but you didn't clear the 1:08:27.600 --> 1:08:28.880 Flowers record for ghost Face? 1:08:28.920 --> 1:08:33.040 Do you remember, uh, the reason for that? I do remember. 1:08:33.040 --> 1:08:36.200 In those days, we were trying to create a kind 1:08:36.200 --> 1:08:41.719 of formula which almost never worked, because every new creation 1:08:41.920 --> 1:08:46.000 is different and every circumstances different. But I tried to 1:08:46.040 --> 1:08:50.880 identify it in the amount of my actual recording that 1:08:51.040 --> 1:08:53.840 was used, and if it was just a little chunk 1:08:54.040 --> 1:08:58.800 that only occupied, you know, ten percent. Tried to base 1:08:58.840 --> 1:09:06.280 the licensing fee on the the prominence of my music 1:09:06.320 --> 1:09:09.080 in the track, and if my baseline or my melody 1:09:09.640 --> 1:09:12.400 was prominent all the way through the track. It's essentially 1:09:12.439 --> 1:09:16.040 my composition that I have, that I own, and that 1:09:16.280 --> 1:09:19.439 I own that copyright, and they're using it from beginning 1:09:19.439 --> 1:09:26.639 to end. I always was pretty firm and rigid about no, 1:09:26.720 --> 1:09:30.280 I'm not giving that up, and I don't. I don't 1:09:30.280 --> 1:09:34.080 think any composer who's proud of the ownership. 1:09:33.560 --> 1:09:37.360 Of their creation would ever want to give that up. 1:09:37.640 --> 1:09:38.360 Just say I. 1:09:38.360 --> 1:09:40.120 When you say not giving it up, you mean not 1:09:40.680 --> 1:09:42.840 giving up any publishing on it, or just not letting 1:09:42.840 --> 1:09:44.320 them use it period. 1:09:44.680 --> 1:09:48.400 Well either version, yes, not using letting them use the 1:09:48.479 --> 1:09:51.600 period unless they license it properly, if they license it, 1:09:52.280 --> 1:09:56.160 and and to get a license to change my music 1:09:56.479 --> 1:09:58.120 when they use it from beginning to end. 1:09:58.880 --> 1:10:06.400 U why why would I? Why would I? Why would 1:10:06.439 --> 1:10:10.559 any of you agree to do that? So here here 1:10:10.600 --> 1:10:12.320 you've got this. 1:10:12.800 --> 1:10:15.559 Understand Yeah, I think yeah, Well you asked the question, 1:10:15.600 --> 1:10:16.760 whyle we any of us would do that? 1:10:16.800 --> 1:10:18.640 I think definitely, it has to be. 1:10:19.920 --> 1:10:21.640 It has to be you know, you have to be 1:10:21.680 --> 1:10:24.200 compensated and the business has to be worked out. I 1:10:24.280 --> 1:10:26.519 just know, for me as a hip hop fan, there 1:10:26.560 --> 1:10:28.960 are so many records that I never would have listened 1:10:29.000 --> 1:10:30.840 to if it were not for hip hop. Like I 1:10:30.960 --> 1:10:33.760 never would have went and listened to you know, your 1:10:33.800 --> 1:10:37.519 first Floor, Well not first for but your album's one, two. 1:10:37.320 --> 1:10:37.880 Three, and four. 1:10:38.320 --> 1:10:40.280 You know what I'm saying, Like, I never would have 1:10:40.400 --> 1:10:42.679 went back to those records had I not heard them 1:10:42.720 --> 1:10:45.439 in this context now, you know what I mean. So 1:10:45.760 --> 1:10:48.400 for me now, I look at it as just you know, 1:10:48.520 --> 1:10:50.920 kind of just planting that seed and putting it in 1:10:50.960 --> 1:10:53.599 a context that we may not understand, but the generation 1:10:53.720 --> 1:10:56.639 after us they may hear it, and you know it goes. 1:10:57.360 --> 1:10:59.719 You know, it's pretty much I look at what sampling 1:10:59.880 --> 1:11:01.160 was back for us back then. 1:11:01.680 --> 1:11:02.799 It's like what mean. 1:11:02.720 --> 1:11:04.920 Culture is now in the Internet, you know. 1:11:04.920 --> 1:11:05.400 What I'm saying. 1:11:05.560 --> 1:11:09.760 Like my son, you know, he you know, watched the 1:11:09.760 --> 1:11:13.040 Wire and all because the gift there's a gift of 1:11:13.080 --> 1:11:16.360 webade that's like being used as a meme a million times, right, 1:11:16.439 --> 1:11:17.400 But to him. 1:11:17.280 --> 1:11:18.920 It was just oh my god. 1:11:19.040 --> 1:11:21.640 So that's where that came from, like, you know, this 1:11:21.760 --> 1:11:23.000 is a year old. 1:11:22.880 --> 1:11:27.599 Old that's right it that is the new sampling. Yeah, 1:11:27.800 --> 1:11:29.320 it's like that is crazy, you. 1:11:29.280 --> 1:11:32.759 Know, right in defense of the way this thing started 1:11:32.800 --> 1:11:37.120 to come together in the legitimatizing of licensing and all that, 1:11:38.160 --> 1:11:41.840 any of the biggest samples of my music, such as 1:11:41.840 --> 1:11:45.479 Peter Piper, I didn't find out about until even two 1:11:45.520 --> 1:11:49.519 three four years later, after the thing was too late 1:11:49.840 --> 1:11:53.960 and I suffered even if I wanted to confront, the 1:11:54.000 --> 1:11:57.320 statute of limitations prevented me from really being able to 1:11:57.320 --> 1:11:59.600 do what I wanted to do in some of the 1:11:59.640 --> 1:12:01.320 cases to protect my copyright. 1:12:01.680 --> 1:12:02.960 Couldn't couldn't do it. 1:12:04.400 --> 1:12:06.760 Quest I've just called it the Wild West, and yes 1:12:07.400 --> 1:12:11.040 it was during that time. You fend for yourself and 1:12:11.120 --> 1:12:13.720 you don't know the history of how it's going to 1:12:13.800 --> 1:12:16.559 turn out. If I had known that, I would have 1:12:16.840 --> 1:12:19.800 had so much respect from the whole hip hop community, 1:12:19.920 --> 1:12:23.080 and they treat me with so much dignity. It makes 1:12:23.120 --> 1:12:26.439 me so happy and proud that I'm a part of it. 1:12:26.520 --> 1:12:30.320 And I know that I have gotten a lot from 1:12:30.680 --> 1:12:32.479 the fact that it historically happened. 1:12:32.760 --> 1:12:35.280 But when it was the wild West, when all that 1:12:35.280 --> 1:12:36.160 stuff was going on. 1:12:36.640 --> 1:12:38.880 I had no idea, and I was fighting for my 1:12:38.960 --> 1:12:42.519 own image as a jazz artist and had enough time 1:12:42.680 --> 1:12:45.760 with that, let alone have a hard time holding on 1:12:45.840 --> 1:12:47.240 to my own composition. 1:12:48.000 --> 1:12:55.240 I understand are there certain songs that you favor of 1:12:55.280 --> 1:12:58.120 your usage? Like for me, I feel like DJ Premiere 1:12:58.200 --> 1:13:04.720 is probably the most ideal person to have utilized your 1:13:04.720 --> 1:13:08.360 work where it's not just straight up jacking it, but 1:13:08.360 --> 1:13:12.000 it's like the way he does it is amazing. But 1:13:12.200 --> 1:13:14.479 like for you, do you have favorites of like, oh, 1:13:14.520 --> 1:13:16.280 that was clever or that sort of thing. 1:13:16.800 --> 1:13:19.559 A little bit by the way. I really loved meeting 1:13:19.600 --> 1:13:22.960 him last week. He had come a year ago, but 1:13:23.080 --> 1:13:25.680 finally had a chance to meet him and talk with 1:13:25.760 --> 1:13:28.639 him a little bit last week at the Blue No such. 1:13:28.400 --> 1:13:30.800 A cool guy, and. 1:13:32.560 --> 1:13:36.040 I am embarrassed in jum ways to admit that I 1:13:36.080 --> 1:13:38.519 still don't listen to that much hip hop music. 1:13:39.000 --> 1:13:40.120 I don't guess what neither do. 1:13:42.320 --> 1:13:46.879 I'm not well versed to talk about it. But because 1:13:46.920 --> 1:13:50.200 of the opportunity to be up on the stage with 1:13:50.360 --> 1:13:56.040 Talib Khali and his other guests, finally I got some 1:13:56.360 --> 1:14:00.360 very great insight into the performance of rap and hip 1:14:00.360 --> 1:14:03.559 hop and the way it feels like jazz when I'm 1:14:03.960 --> 1:14:07.639 on the stage, and the skill and that the spirit 1:14:07.800 --> 1:14:10.720 of it that I had not paid attention to and 1:14:10.800 --> 1:14:15.160 listening to the recordings, but being there with him was fantastic. 1:14:15.880 --> 1:14:19.880 Let me let me explain to our listeners. So basically, 1:14:20.160 --> 1:14:24.960 mister James did a residency, a three night residency at 1:14:25.000 --> 1:14:28.160 the Blue Note in New York City with to live 1:14:28.240 --> 1:14:34.479 quality black thought was there, rock him was there? Yeah, 1:14:34.600 --> 1:14:38.840 Like just basically, you know it, is this the first 1:14:38.840 --> 1:14:42.240 time that you finally had a meeting of the minds 1:14:42.280 --> 1:14:45.719 between yourself and and hip hop MC's and a band 1:14:45.760 --> 1:14:47.679 that knew how to make this happen. 1:14:48.000 --> 1:14:52.760 I did the same thing with Talib last year. That 1:14:53.120 --> 1:14:57.840 was only the other time, and I really liked that 1:14:58.680 --> 1:15:02.840 in a way of getting and know in real time 1:15:03.320 --> 1:15:07.880 the music's happening. The two starts and I'm playing right 1:15:07.920 --> 1:15:11.880 along with him, and and when Rakiema was was playing 1:15:12.000 --> 1:15:15.960 his UH version where he had set well my peak Shambouzi, 1:15:21.160 --> 1:15:25.919 and it made me smile because I remember UH percussion 1:15:25.920 --> 1:15:27.920 players that I used to work with all the time, 1:15:28.000 --> 1:15:32.200 Doc Gibbs, and Doc Gibbs had given me the title shambousie, 1:15:32.600 --> 1:15:36.040 which was the kind of part of his vocabulary, and 1:15:36.120 --> 1:15:38.599 it just brought back a whole bunch of memories. And 1:15:38.680 --> 1:15:42.400 this again, this, this, that was just the intro for me. 1:15:43.920 --> 1:15:47.240 The melody or the main part of that song. Rackim 1:15:47.240 --> 1:15:50.439 didn't use it at all. It was just those chords 1:15:50.439 --> 1:15:55.679 of the intro. Nevertheless, I loved the way he performed 1:15:55.720 --> 1:16:00.240 on stage with such confidence and charisma and and made 1:16:00.280 --> 1:16:04.080 me proud, happy and smiling that he had chosen my 1:16:05.640 --> 1:16:10.840 you know, as something to create a new piece out 1:16:10.880 --> 1:16:11.040 of it. 1:16:11.840 --> 1:16:14.360 What were your thoughts on Everyday People or People every 1:16:14.400 --> 1:16:17.080 Day by rest of development, because I thought that was 1:16:17.160 --> 1:16:19.960 just a genie that taking that little piece, Like to me, 1:16:20.000 --> 1:16:21.479 that was Jens, Well, we your thoughts on. 1:16:21.439 --> 1:16:26.840 It very very complicated from the business end of it, 1:16:26.960 --> 1:16:31.799 and actually even from it was another example of something 1:16:31.800 --> 1:16:34.800 that I was not paying attention to know that my 1:16:34.960 --> 1:16:38.120 sample had even been used until way after the fact, 1:16:38.439 --> 1:16:41.120 oh wow, way after it had become a big hit. 1:16:41.800 --> 1:16:45.360 So it came to me late in the game. And 1:16:45.760 --> 1:16:50.360 what had happened was People every Day had been released 1:16:50.560 --> 1:16:53.439 as a single without my sample on it. The first 1:16:53.880 --> 1:16:58.360 release out didn't have my recording on it and kind 1:16:58.360 --> 1:17:03.320 of didn't go anywhere, and they kept working with it, 1:17:03.360 --> 1:17:05.519 did a new mix which ended up being called a 1:17:05.560 --> 1:17:10.840 metamorphosis mix, did add my sample, and that became a 1:17:10.840 --> 1:17:11.320 big hit. 1:17:12.400 --> 1:17:16.160 And so quite clearly I knew that my. 1:17:16.200 --> 1:17:19.920 Sample had made a difference in that record, but what 1:17:20.240 --> 1:17:23.240 we had did not know at the time and until 1:17:23.479 --> 1:17:27.639 it got retigious and kind of got a little bit ugly, 1:17:27.720 --> 1:17:33.360 shall we say, series. And this may or may not 1:17:33.439 --> 1:17:36.120 have had anything to do with their management, but more 1:17:36.120 --> 1:17:41.000 of the record company's management. When the royalties came in, 1:17:42.080 --> 1:17:46.400 they somehow or other got channeled into the other version 1:17:46.800 --> 1:17:50.760 of U did not have my sample in it, so 1:17:51.040 --> 1:17:55.240 the royalties did not come my way and after a 1:17:55.240 --> 1:17:58.839 long period of time, and it was a very significant difference. 1:17:59.680 --> 1:18:02.320 So that that's why they had to identify the metamorphosis 1:18:02.360 --> 1:18:05.679 remix every time I see it used in public. 1:18:05.960 --> 1:18:08.240 But even though they did some. 1:18:09.920 --> 1:18:13.760 Unbeknownst to me and in the final I couldn't prove 1:18:13.760 --> 1:18:17.680 it anyway. Uh, it got channeled wrong, and it took 1:18:17.800 --> 1:18:20.800 us a long time before we figured out, well, why 1:18:21.000 --> 1:18:25.760 is this statement for the other version so huge and 1:18:25.840 --> 1:18:29.080 the statement for metamorphosis mixed nothing? 1:18:29.560 --> 1:18:34.920 Because no one wants to write Metamorphosis mix. I assure you, yeah, 1:18:34.920 --> 1:18:38.120 I assure you, ninety nine percent of the time, if 1:18:38.120 --> 1:18:42.400 someone's playing that song, they're they're definitely playing your version in. 1:18:42.400 --> 1:18:46.599 That TP appearances and everything else. That was the version 1:18:46.960 --> 1:18:51.920 that became a hit. But I probably shouldn't even be 1:18:51.960 --> 1:18:55.799 talking about details of this because there was a settlement 1:18:55.840 --> 1:18:58.280 that we finally reached and it was. 1:18:58.240 --> 1:19:01.400 Not particularly good. But so I don't have good memories 1:19:01.479 --> 1:19:02.840 about that, Let's put it that way. 1:19:03.560 --> 1:19:07.000 You have good memories about Taxi that Angela. 1:19:08.439 --> 1:19:12.320 Well, of course, that's all good news for me, you know, 1:19:13.040 --> 1:19:16.840 kind of I could have never anticipated how that would 1:19:16.840 --> 1:19:19.679 become such a signature piece for me, and I thank 1:19:19.760 --> 1:19:22.680 the producers of that series, which is still in syndication. 1:19:23.760 --> 1:19:27.200 But the most weird but it turns out to be 1:19:27.439 --> 1:19:32.840 very celebratory. Simple usage of it turned out to be 1:19:32.920 --> 1:19:36.559 Celo Green when he used it on a two called 1:19:36.600 --> 1:19:41.360 Sign of the Times recently, and he just kind of 1:19:42.120 --> 1:19:46.400 sang over it, redid it added a lyric to it. 1:19:46.040 --> 1:19:49.160 And first, it was a little bit shocking when I 1:19:49.200 --> 1:19:51.800 first found out about it, because they hadn't come to 1:19:51.840 --> 1:19:53.519 me in advance about it either. 1:19:54.080 --> 1:19:57.840 But when I first heard it, I loved it so much. 1:19:58.080 --> 1:20:01.479 I just couldn't be anything but. 1:20:01.479 --> 1:20:04.759 Happy about it, and we ended up the really fair 1:20:04.880 --> 1:20:08.880 and nice licensing arrangement, and it has led to me 1:20:09.000 --> 1:20:13.080 being able to meet him in person in a similar 1:20:13.080 --> 1:20:17.000 way that I confronted Rizzard recently. But Celo and I 1:20:17.040 --> 1:20:22.040 did some stuff together and we wrote a song together 1:20:22.120 --> 1:20:24.680 that's going to be on the same new album of 1:20:24.680 --> 1:20:28.479 the album You haven't heard Side of the Times by Celo. 1:20:28.960 --> 1:20:33.080 It's my Taxi piece reinterpreted by him. 1:20:33.600 --> 1:20:36.320 Wow, okay, well wait, you mean the Sign of the 1:20:36.360 --> 1:20:39.400 Times that Rod Timberton worked on that. 1:20:38.560 --> 1:20:40.280 That's by Side of the Times. 1:20:40.520 --> 1:20:45.479 So the Times, Yeah, right, that Rod Timperton worked on 1:20:45.560 --> 1:20:50.120 this on my album. The Selo version, which he called 1:20:50.200 --> 1:20:52.800 Side of the Times, has his lyric that has Sign 1:20:52.840 --> 1:20:54.080 of the Times in the lyric. 1:20:54.520 --> 1:20:58.519 I see it's you have another version another song called 1:20:58.520 --> 1:20:59.680 Sign of the Times that's not. 1:21:00.360 --> 1:21:02.280 Right related to the tempert. 1:21:02.720 --> 1:21:06.720 Several Side of the Time songs, but but here his 1:21:07.360 --> 1:21:12.559 side of the Times has my Taxi melody and a 1:21:12.680 --> 1:21:17.320 very very cool but very specific reinterpretation of it that 1:21:18.920 --> 1:21:21.280 It was a great opportunity for me to meet him 1:21:21.560 --> 1:21:22.879 and collaborate. 1:21:27.920 --> 1:21:29.320 I want to ask about your gear. 1:21:30.320 --> 1:21:34.320 I know that as a creator who you know, since 1:21:34.360 --> 1:21:37.640 the Explosion record, like you've been experimented with like electronic 1:21:38.360 --> 1:21:41.040 sonics and whatnot. But I do know like a lot 1:21:41.080 --> 1:21:44.240 of those early synthesizers that were available in the seventies 1:21:44.240 --> 1:21:48.040 were monophonic, which kind of makes it limiting for you 1:21:48.080 --> 1:21:49.760 to play chords or anything, like you got to play 1:21:49.760 --> 1:21:53.639 one note. But I know, like around seventy six seventy 1:21:53.680 --> 1:21:58.800 seven when they're making polyphonic synthesizers which allows you to 1:21:58.880 --> 1:22:04.439 make chords. Are sort of manufacturers the Yamahas of the day, 1:22:04.640 --> 1:22:07.720 the or the the electronic makers of the day. 1:22:07.760 --> 1:22:11.680 Are they courting you? Are you getting endorsements? Are you. 1:22:13.400 --> 1:22:16.120 Sort of in that Stevie wonder way where you know 1:22:16.680 --> 1:22:18.880 they go to him and Herbie Hancock with all this 1:22:20.160 --> 1:22:23.000 new gadgetry and like here like use our stuff. And 1:22:23.439 --> 1:22:26.799 more specifically in the seventies early eighties, not now where 1:22:27.240 --> 1:22:30.719 of course, now you know we use that every day, 1:22:30.760 --> 1:22:35.040 but in the late seventies and eighties, like what was 1:22:35.120 --> 1:22:39.400 the courting system like with keyboard makers and you. 1:22:41.160 --> 1:22:42.040 I don't remember. 1:22:41.840 --> 1:22:44.960 Exactly when I got endorsement from Yamaha, but I've been 1:22:45.120 --> 1:22:49.120 affiliated with them for many many years now, specifically the 1:22:49.200 --> 1:22:52.400 discal Vier, the acousticana that has many capability that I 1:22:52.520 --> 1:22:55.200 use all the time. I love it, and I have 1:22:55.280 --> 1:22:58.439 a montage and motif whatever. I use a lot of 1:22:58.520 --> 1:23:05.000 Yamaha gear and I am affiliated with them. Most of 1:23:05.040 --> 1:23:07.720 the rest of my gear throughout has been I pay 1:23:07.840 --> 1:23:10.680 for it and I go to the music store and 1:23:10.720 --> 1:23:16.400 buy it whatever. Ara, you were talking about the polyphonic synthesizers. 1:23:16.439 --> 1:23:20.240 I can remember the early stages of that when it 1:23:20.280 --> 1:23:25.439 was very primitive by today's standards, and Oberheim was the 1:23:25.479 --> 1:23:29.800 company that I remember that had the polyphonic synthesizer that 1:23:30.000 --> 1:23:34.320 had separate oscillators for each sound. So in the Oberheim 1:23:34.400 --> 1:23:38.400 eight voice was the one I a lot that you 1:23:38.400 --> 1:23:41.400 could play polyphonically on it, but each note in the 1:23:41.520 --> 1:23:45.160 chord was going to it through a different oscillator and 1:23:45.280 --> 1:23:51.320 manipulated very differently than the way the more recent polyphonic synthesizers. 1:23:50.720 --> 1:23:53.040 Are, so that gave it a character. 1:23:53.400 --> 1:23:57.240 Each oscillator you could kind of tweak it, and there 1:23:57.320 --> 1:24:01.280 was a thickness about it that they gave that Oberheim 1:24:01.760 --> 1:24:06.160 eight boys, where I made a lot of records using that, 1:24:07.640 --> 1:24:11.519 and I remember that they were also funky in a 1:24:11.840 --> 1:24:16.840 sense that yes, you could play four six eight no chords, 1:24:17.479 --> 1:24:20.800 but it was the sensesizer was trying to catch up. 1:24:20.880 --> 1:24:23.559 If you try to do anything too fancy or too 1:24:23.600 --> 1:24:27.120 fast changing, it didn't behave like a. 1:24:28.840 --> 1:24:29.160 Yato. 1:24:31.479 --> 1:24:32.320 So if you held the. 1:24:32.360 --> 1:24:34.759 Notes down, you could do a string pad or something 1:24:34.800 --> 1:24:37.160 like that, but if you tried to do something really 1:24:37.840 --> 1:24:42.640 really technically fast with it, it was clumsy. 1:24:43.280 --> 1:24:46.320 I was just gonna ask. I wanted to make sure 1:24:46.320 --> 1:24:49.600 we got in questions about four play. I used to 1:24:49.680 --> 1:24:52.439 do my homework to those records in school in high school, 1:24:53.680 --> 1:24:57.439 so I specifically I just wanted just the between the 1:24:57.439 --> 1:24:59.920 sheets album and the lixer like those like I played 1:25:00.000 --> 1:25:03.360 those records like you know, back and forth. I wanted 1:25:03.400 --> 1:25:06.400 to ask one how did all you guys come together? 1:25:06.960 --> 1:25:10.760 And specifically, if you have any memories of recording, why 1:25:10.760 --> 1:25:11.679 can't it wait till morning? 1:25:11.880 --> 1:25:14.400 Phil Common, what that session was like? 1:25:15.200 --> 1:25:21.160 That's my shit, many many, many great memories from those years. 1:25:21.520 --> 1:25:24.720 In nineteen ninety one, I think it was I was 1:25:24.840 --> 1:25:27.959 headed out to Los Angeles working on an album of mine. 1:25:28.240 --> 1:25:31.680 That album ended up being called Grand Panel Canyon, and 1:25:33.120 --> 1:25:36.080 I had brought Harvey Mason to New York many many 1:25:36.120 --> 1:25:39.280 times to play with me because most of my sessions 1:25:39.280 --> 1:25:41.759 were being done in New York at that time. 1:25:42.439 --> 1:25:47.080 But I had also Lee Retnauer had used me on 1:25:47.160 --> 1:25:48.120 the project of. 1:25:48.080 --> 1:25:52.600 His, and we were dealing with wanting to do reciprocal 1:25:52.720 --> 1:25:55.599 So if I do something for you, play for you, 1:25:55.920 --> 1:25:58.600 I want you to play on my album whatever. He 1:25:59.000 --> 1:26:02.320 re owed me reciprocal, and since he was LA based, 1:26:03.040 --> 1:26:05.800 I thought it might be more interesting for me to 1:26:05.840 --> 1:26:09.479 go to LA and use bothly Written Hour and Harvey 1:26:09.479 --> 1:26:13.519 Mason on my album. So I planned it and didn't 1:26:13.520 --> 1:26:17.120 know who to hire on bass. Wasn't that familiar with 1:26:17.160 --> 1:26:20.320 the LA scene. So I asked both Lee and Harvey 1:26:20.760 --> 1:26:24.760 who try to use on bass, and separately both came 1:26:24.840 --> 1:26:27.479 up at the same answer Nathan East, who I had 1:26:27.520 --> 1:26:31.160 not met, never had worked with him before. And I 1:26:31.200 --> 1:26:35.960 found myself in the studio with those three other guys, Nathan, Harvey, 1:26:36.000 --> 1:26:42.240 and Lee, and something clicked and all four of us 1:26:42.240 --> 1:26:45.599 could just feel it wasn't like a regular recording session. 1:26:45.680 --> 1:26:49.519 The combinations of our backgrounds are things that we had 1:26:49.600 --> 1:26:50.560 worked on. 1:26:52.040 --> 1:26:55.599 Different projects. Whatever, It just felt really special. 1:26:55.640 --> 1:26:59.080 And on a break we had a conversation about the 1:26:59.160 --> 1:27:01.559 idea of how do groups get formed? 1:27:01.680 --> 1:27:02.080 When? 1:27:02.520 --> 1:27:04.679 How did Weather Report get formed? How did the modern 1:27:04.760 --> 1:27:07.920 Judge portet get formed? When did they decide to put 1:27:07.960 --> 1:27:10.559 a name on it and be a group rather than 1:27:10.600 --> 1:27:15.240 an individual? And one thing I do another I had 1:27:15.240 --> 1:27:17.800 at our job at Warner Brothers Records, and I was 1:27:17.800 --> 1:27:21.519 able to go to a meeting there and say, will 1:27:21.560 --> 1:27:25.639 you give us a budget to experiment and do a project, 1:27:26.120 --> 1:27:32.200 never thinking about it becoming a full time long thing. 1:27:32.960 --> 1:27:36.519 It was at that time maybe just one project was 1:27:36.560 --> 1:27:43.320 all we were thinking about. But the first song of Restoration, 1:27:44.760 --> 1:27:49.680 my composition on my album, was what we remember as 1:27:49.760 --> 1:27:53.160 being kind of like the first idea of a four 1:27:53.200 --> 1:27:53.799 place sound. 1:27:56.640 --> 1:27:59.479 Okay, so, speaking of warners, I always wanted to know this. 1:28:00.000 --> 1:28:04.120 I'm not asking this because you're categorized in a certain 1:28:04.160 --> 1:28:07.160 type of jazz, but I always wanted to know, you know. 1:28:07.200 --> 1:28:13.080 In nineteen seventy seven, when Tommy Lapluna and George Benson 1:28:14.040 --> 1:28:18.519 create The Breezing Record, which was such a breakthrough album 1:28:18.720 --> 1:28:21.920 in terms of the multiple nominations that it got for 1:28:22.000 --> 1:28:25.160 Grammys and whatnot, you know, people were pretty much ready 1:28:25.200 --> 1:28:28.960 to dismiss George Benson, and not dismiss him, but you know, 1:28:29.160 --> 1:28:31.880 even he said like, well, I'm at the end of 1:28:31.880 --> 1:28:33.720 my room. Let me make this last record real quick 1:28:33.720 --> 1:28:37.360 and then retire. And then suddenly Breezing blows up. But 1:28:38.240 --> 1:28:41.160 did you see the embracing of that album as a 1:28:41.320 --> 1:28:45.160 victory for the type of jazz that you were doing, 1:28:45.160 --> 1:28:47.120 the type of instrumental music that you were doing. The 1:28:47.160 --> 1:28:57.960 fact that that album was somewhat embraced by the mainstream 1:28:58.000 --> 1:29:02.280 community and given all those accolades, all those Grammy nominations 1:29:02.320 --> 1:29:02.759 and whatnot. 1:29:04.120 --> 1:29:10.679 Yes, I was experiencing it from a distance, having done 1:29:10.720 --> 1:29:14.080 some collaborating with George when he was at CTI, and 1:29:14.120 --> 1:29:17.920 I was a little bit familiar with the complicated exit 1:29:18.000 --> 1:29:21.120 from CTI and when he went over to Warner Brothers 1:29:21.439 --> 1:29:26.320 and the sort of transition from just being a guitar 1:29:26.400 --> 1:29:30.959 player to a singer, and watched what was in George's 1:29:30.960 --> 1:29:34.360 mind of what he really wanted to do. And somewhat 1:29:34.439 --> 1:29:37.519 later after he went to Warner Brothers, I also got 1:29:37.840 --> 1:29:41.040 the job of producing one of his records, and at 1:29:41.040 --> 1:29:44.600 that time big bosses of Warner Brothers gave me the 1:29:44.640 --> 1:29:49.280 assignment of wanting to him play more guitar, but as 1:29:49.320 --> 1:29:51.800 I started to work with him, his heart was in 1:29:52.280 --> 1:29:56.799 singing more, and I could see that that has always 1:29:56.840 --> 1:29:57.640 been a conflict. 1:29:58.000 --> 1:30:00.840 And a lot of people, jazz. 1:30:00.560 --> 1:30:04.639 Fans just are aware of the genius that comes out 1:30:04.680 --> 1:30:06.880 of his fingers when he plays guitar that nobody else 1:30:07.640 --> 1:30:08.200 and do it. 1:30:08.800 --> 1:30:10.720 But uh, his. 1:30:12.240 --> 1:30:16.680 Whole other part of his personality felt that talent that 1:30:16.720 --> 1:30:19.240 he had as a singer too, and in the In 1:30:19.280 --> 1:30:25.080 a Breezing album, both were happy, both of course. 1:30:26.320 --> 1:30:27.120 Masquerade and. 1:30:29.240 --> 1:30:33.280 Every time I hear Breasons that tune, the same thing 1:30:33.520 --> 1:30:37.519 happens to me. There's no bridge, which was for us 1:30:37.560 --> 1:30:40.839 at that time. It's unusual. It's just the same. It's 1:30:40.840 --> 1:30:45.200 it's the same key and it just keeps repeating. But 1:30:47.200 --> 1:30:53.640 it was eight bars, uh, and it's just simple. He 1:30:53.760 --> 1:30:56.400 never goes away from it. And some of us who 1:30:57.000 --> 1:31:01.200 who have all these things, we think about stay with 1:31:01.240 --> 1:31:03.400 the hook, you know, don't get away from the hook, 1:31:03.439 --> 1:31:07.160 don't get too cute, don't get too complicated, because the 1:31:07.800 --> 1:31:11.880 fans want to hear that melody. And the way that 1:31:11.880 --> 1:31:18.160 that record was produced was so clearly on the on 1:31:18.200 --> 1:31:22.400 the money in terms of drive home that hook drive 1:31:22.479 --> 1:31:23.920 home uniqueness. 1:31:24.160 --> 1:31:26.519 It just made me want to go back to the 1:31:26.600 --> 1:31:28.559 drawing boards. I want to try to do that. 1:31:28.800 --> 1:31:31.599 I want to try to do something similar, but then 1:31:31.640 --> 1:31:35.479 you realize it's not easy to buy that matchic. 1:31:35.960 --> 1:31:38.599 I think a lot of our fan base might not 1:31:38.800 --> 1:31:45.559 know that Reason was written by Bobby Womack. It's actually 1:31:45.560 --> 1:31:48.280 a Bobby Womack cover, which I didn't know. I just 1:31:48.360 --> 1:31:52.519 recently found the Bobby Womack original, And you know, I 1:31:52.640 --> 1:31:56.800 tend to forget that Bob Womack was actually a good 1:31:56.840 --> 1:31:59.440 guitar player, Like so you know, that was the instrumental 1:31:59.439 --> 1:32:03.839 on one of his records in nineteen seventy one. 1:32:04.720 --> 1:32:08.360 And I know I'm getting to know quest love as 1:32:08.400 --> 1:32:10.840 a musicologist. 1:32:10.400 --> 1:32:13.400 To music nerds man. 1:32:14.760 --> 1:32:16.840 Because I knew. 1:32:16.640 --> 1:32:19.519 That sort of in my district memory. But I don't 1:32:19.520 --> 1:32:21.320 think I ever heard Bobby one Mac's version. 1:32:22.320 --> 1:32:25.840 Yeah, no, it's it's damn near the same song, just 1:32:26.520 --> 1:32:29.920 with a harder Well when we say harder more like 1:32:29.960 --> 1:32:33.360 a hip hop is that should jump on it like 1:32:33.439 --> 1:32:36.920 it's it's actually amazing. The drums are more kracking on 1:32:38.000 --> 1:32:40.800 the wool Mac version. We are you going to ask Steve. 1:32:41.960 --> 1:32:45.719 Well, we kind of reazed right over it the time 1:32:45.720 --> 1:32:49.080 period that I wanted to talk about. I mean, Bob 1:32:49.160 --> 1:32:53.000 James had the coolest, one of the most iconic jazz 1:32:53.080 --> 1:32:56.599 labels of all the time with tappan Ze Records, and 1:32:56.840 --> 1:33:02.360 I'm a little curious about the the timetable because you 1:33:02.439 --> 1:33:05.320 were a and ring at Columbia. Was that during the 1:33:05.360 --> 1:33:10.200 CTI years when you were arranging and also playing on 1:33:10.280 --> 1:33:11.560 CTI records. 1:33:12.240 --> 1:33:14.880 I kind of had reached the end of my CTI. 1:33:16.800 --> 1:33:20.960 After my four solo albums that ended up around nineteen 1:33:20.960 --> 1:33:25.080 seventy seven, and there were some problems with CTI in 1:33:25.120 --> 1:33:28.799 the business world too, and then the lack of payment 1:33:28.840 --> 1:33:37.639 of royalties, et cetera, which necessitated me litigating there. I'm 1:33:37.840 --> 1:33:46.240 beginning to make it sound like a which I hope 1:33:46.280 --> 1:33:49.479 I wasn't in the long version of that. But there 1:33:49.520 --> 1:33:52.000 have been times when I've had to protect and in 1:33:52.040 --> 1:33:54.760 this case, I'm glad I did because I ended up 1:33:54.840 --> 1:33:58.200 with the ownership of my four records, which made it 1:33:58.280 --> 1:33:59.120 possible for me. 1:33:59.200 --> 1:34:01.160 To make many many things happened. 1:34:01.439 --> 1:34:04.600 So I left in nineteen seventy seven, negotiated with Columbia 1:34:05.040 --> 1:34:09.360 and signed there where Bruce Lenvall was the president. 1:34:09.560 --> 1:34:12.000 And he did give me the opportunity. 1:34:11.640 --> 1:34:14.800 To start a small custom label with the idea that 1:34:15.560 --> 1:34:20.040 I could do a continuation of sort of the CTI approach, 1:34:20.920 --> 1:34:25.360 in which I had done enough in this role of 1:34:25.400 --> 1:34:30.160 a ranger conductor for pre Taylor that my intention was 1:34:30.200 --> 1:34:33.160 to not do exactly what Greed Taylor did, but my 1:34:33.360 --> 1:34:37.000 version of it and tried to develop my own style, 1:34:37.160 --> 1:34:41.519 but influenced by him, and very early tonight you mentioned 1:34:41.600 --> 1:34:48.800 Joe Jorgenson. For many, many memories, I wanted Joe Jorgenson 1:34:48.960 --> 1:34:51.799 to be my Rudy van Gelder because Rudy Van Gelder 1:34:51.920 --> 1:34:56.800 was a very unique engineer for Preed Taylor and his 1:34:57.040 --> 1:35:01.200 style of engineering the sound of those records very different 1:35:01.200 --> 1:35:05.160 from anything else was out there, and in my experience 1:35:05.200 --> 1:35:08.120 of doing studio work in New York, Joe was the 1:35:08.160 --> 1:35:12.680 guy that I thought had the most interesting ears that 1:35:12.760 --> 1:35:14.920 the two of us could collaborate on trying to come 1:35:15.000 --> 1:35:16.519 up with our own sound. 1:35:17.240 --> 1:35:20.400 Would Rudy pre mix the stuff or like, would you 1:35:20.439 --> 1:35:22.880 guys track first then mix afterwards. 1:35:23.439 --> 1:35:30.880 That's a very good funny question because Rudy was extremely 1:35:30.960 --> 1:35:34.200 secretive about any of his techniques and he did not 1:35:34.439 --> 1:35:36.880 like sharing. He didn't not like anybody asking me any 1:35:36.920 --> 1:35:37.559 questions about you. 1:35:37.640 --> 1:35:40.959 Knew what my next question was, like share the secrets. 1:35:41.479 --> 1:35:45.880 So I got the job of writing these arrangements on 1:35:46.200 --> 1:35:49.320 where we'd have basic tracks, and all Rudy would be 1:35:49.360 --> 1:35:53.320 willing to give me was this rough of two track 1:35:53.720 --> 1:35:56.479 from the basic sessions, and I would take that home 1:35:56.920 --> 1:36:00.880 and listen to that to make my arrangements mix on 1:36:00.920 --> 1:36:04.160 those roughs that he sent me with the worst, most 1:36:04.479 --> 1:36:09.000 crude o reverb, no ambious, nothing, because he didn't want 1:36:09.000 --> 1:36:14.080 to let anything out of his studio that could even 1:36:14.560 --> 1:36:18.000 possibly be released. And so I have that memory of 1:36:18.040 --> 1:36:22.000 his mixing is so completely different from the way anybody 1:36:22.040 --> 1:36:22.519 else work. 1:36:22.960 --> 1:36:28.439 Wait, do you have a dry Rudy flat mix in 1:36:28.479 --> 1:36:29.160 your possession? 1:36:30.200 --> 1:36:33.760 Well? I have many. If I could find a real 1:36:33.880 --> 1:36:35.160 real player that would play. 1:36:34.960 --> 1:36:39.200 The I'm begging you to make a compilation of just dry. 1:36:39.640 --> 1:36:45.040 Because the thing is is until like Steve really got 1:36:45.040 --> 1:36:49.320 me into like listening to Steve's obsession with CDI like, 1:36:49.560 --> 1:36:53.200 and I'm sorry for really car jacking his interview Steve, 1:36:54.000 --> 1:36:56.639 Like Steve is the CTI coologist. So the thing is 1:36:56.640 --> 1:37:02.000 is that when I started studying Rudy's mix, thing I 1:37:02.200 --> 1:37:05.599 never was a fan of compression because I never liked 1:37:05.720 --> 1:37:10.559 being squeezed. But somehow on your on your records, on 1:37:10.600 --> 1:37:15.760 Grover's records, like certain CTI product, there's there's kind of 1:37:15.760 --> 1:37:18.959 a I don't know, I can't I don't have the 1:37:19.000 --> 1:37:23.960 proper eloquence to say the right words that describe Rudy's 1:37:23.960 --> 1:37:29.479 texture and his relationship with reverb and compression. But like, yeah, 1:37:29.479 --> 1:37:31.880 that's that's the secret sauce that I'm dying because I 1:37:31.880 --> 1:37:38.400 feel like that is the the apex of seventies production 1:37:39.800 --> 1:37:42.200 that I can't master just yet. 1:37:42.760 --> 1:37:45.479 To go to his studio. It's still open, let's. 1:37:45.280 --> 1:37:50.000 Go, and still unscathed and still yeah, it's it's exactly 1:37:50.040 --> 1:37:50.360 the same. 1:37:51.200 --> 1:37:53.880 I'm I'm in the same boat as you, even though 1:37:53.920 --> 1:37:56.439 I spent it was almost like a full time job. 1:37:56.920 --> 1:37:58.559 Being there every day. 1:37:58.360 --> 1:38:02.360 In a studio for five years, and I never learned 1:38:02.400 --> 1:38:04.679 much about the details of it either, because he wouldn't 1:38:04.680 --> 1:38:05.120 talk about it. 1:38:05.200 --> 1:38:06.480 He wouldn't share anything. 1:38:06.800 --> 1:38:10.760 Every one of his all of his gear, like his 1:38:11.000 --> 1:38:14.080 equalizers or compressors, anything like that. 1:38:14.080 --> 1:38:14.519 He had. 1:38:14.760 --> 1:38:18.880 He had taped over the manufacturers the names of him, 1:38:19.000 --> 1:38:22.280 so he didn't want you to know what they were. 1:38:22.280 --> 1:38:23.040 That's hip hop. 1:38:23.160 --> 1:38:25.240 See that's hip hop, that's hide in the labels, Like 1:38:25.320 --> 1:38:26.920 y'alln't even know that, y'all. 1:38:28.479 --> 1:38:29.439 Following a cycle. 1:38:34.600 --> 1:38:37.280 So yeah, hey guys, Bob James had one of the 1:38:37.280 --> 1:38:39.880 most iconic jazz labels of all time called Tap and 1:38:39.960 --> 1:38:44.320 Z Records, And yeah, I just wanted to I found 1:38:44.360 --> 1:38:48.719 it really interesting what artists you chose to have leader 1:38:48.760 --> 1:38:51.599 albums on Tap and Zee. Obviously you had so many 1:38:51.640 --> 1:38:53.840 of your own records on that label as well, But 1:38:54.200 --> 1:38:55.960 I want to just run some names by you that 1:38:56.040 --> 1:38:59.479 might not necessarily be household names for listeners or for 1:39:00.200 --> 1:39:02.599 or for us, and if maybe you could just give 1:39:02.680 --> 1:39:05.799 us just a brief, you know, blurb about them, because 1:39:06.240 --> 1:39:08.040 I'd be interested in Wilbert Longmire. 1:39:09.080 --> 1:39:12.439 Yeah. I found out about Wilbert through George Benson. Actually, 1:39:12.439 --> 1:39:15.920 he and George Benson were friends, and George had heard him, 1:39:16.640 --> 1:39:20.720 and yeah, he sang and played guitar, and to get 1:39:20.720 --> 1:39:23.679 a recommendation with George Benson's but good as you could 1:39:23.840 --> 1:39:28.640 vote for. So that's the main reason why I signed Wilbert. 1:39:28.920 --> 1:39:32.599 And it was at a time when I was very 1:39:32.720 --> 1:39:37.120 much in the heat of wanting to be a good 1:39:37.240 --> 1:39:41.000 follow up to the CTI sound, but my own version 1:39:41.040 --> 1:39:41.320 of it. 1:39:41.960 --> 1:39:42.360 Wow. 1:39:42.880 --> 1:39:45.560 And that's that was the end result. 1:39:45.280 --> 1:39:48.400 Of it, okay. Joe Anne Brakeen. 1:39:48.960 --> 1:39:56.080 Very very original pianist, amazing. She could not be produced 1:39:56.120 --> 1:39:58.120 in any kind of way like some of the other 1:39:58.320 --> 1:40:01.240 coversion artists that I I had a chance to work with. 1:40:01.680 --> 1:40:05.400 She was completely her own person. 1:40:06.000 --> 1:40:11.559 So my role with her in some ways was to 1:40:11.600 --> 1:40:14.360 try to be like what I would want a producer 1:40:14.640 --> 1:40:17.480 to be with me if I just had complete authority 1:40:17.520 --> 1:40:21.040 to do whatever I wanted to do. And I knew 1:40:21.080 --> 1:40:24.439 that it would be a kind of simple production because 1:40:24.520 --> 1:40:27.200 she just wanted to play jazz with a great rhythm 1:40:27.200 --> 1:40:32.000 session and make sure we have the best engineer for her, 1:40:32.120 --> 1:40:34.519 get the right sounds for her, and let her do 1:40:34.640 --> 1:40:39.800 her own thing. That was pretty much my goal with Joanne. 1:40:40.720 --> 1:40:43.680 There was an artist named Mark Colby that did a 1:40:43.680 --> 1:40:44.960 couple of records on Tappenzi. 1:40:45.520 --> 1:40:48.280 Yeah. He toured with me a lot, played my band, and. 1:40:49.840 --> 1:40:55.960 I've always loved power in his playing and I could 1:40:56.040 --> 1:40:59.120 treat him similarly to the way I tried to treat 1:40:59.160 --> 1:41:03.120 Grover Washington and for example, another sexophone player for that label. 1:41:03.880 --> 1:41:07.320 And very fond memories of those. 1:41:07.160 --> 1:41:12.479 Records, and Richard T the piano player, did a leader 1:41:12.760 --> 1:41:14.760 album or two on Tapaze as well. 1:41:15.760 --> 1:41:20.639 Yeah, well, Richard being a member of that stuff rhythm 1:41:20.640 --> 1:41:25.000 section that had Eric Gill on guitar and Gordon Edward 1:41:25.080 --> 1:41:28.960 was the bass and Rob McDonald percussion. They were a 1:41:29.080 --> 1:41:33.479 kind of quintessential top, top of the line R and 1:41:33.560 --> 1:41:40.840 B based rhythm section and Richard T's unique kind of 1:41:41.680 --> 1:41:49.559 heavily Church influenced combination organ and sometimes Fender roads. I 1:41:49.720 --> 1:41:52.800 just loved everything about him. I'm trying to emulate some 1:41:52.880 --> 1:41:59.040 of his feel because I was alongside him on many 1:41:59.200 --> 1:42:03.240 sessions where some of the Quincy Jones States and a 1:42:03.240 --> 1:42:05.920 lot of New York studio days, Richard be on Oregon 1:42:05.960 --> 1:42:09.960 and I would be on piano or sometimes trade off 1:42:10.040 --> 1:42:13.000 or whatever. So getting to know him that way and 1:42:13.040 --> 1:42:16.439 realizing what a uniquely great artist he was, of course 1:42:16.479 --> 1:42:19.080 he was an obvious one for me to try to sign. 1:42:19.880 --> 1:42:22.800 And Steve Khan, the guitar player, I think that was 1:42:22.840 --> 1:42:24.440 the first tappan Zee record. 1:42:25.200 --> 1:42:25.840 Might have been. 1:42:26.439 --> 1:42:32.520 Steve was very determined that he wanted the Columbia identity 1:42:32.720 --> 1:42:37.720 on his album, also SOE logo on it. 1:42:38.200 --> 1:42:42.000 But but he wanted the Red label, not the Blue. 1:42:41.920 --> 1:42:46.559 Kind of like that I didn't have enough prestige and 1:42:46.600 --> 1:42:49.160 that he needed the big name. 1:42:49.000 --> 1:42:52.040 On there too. He and I were friends, and so 1:42:53.439 --> 1:42:56.360 he was and smaller budgets. 1:42:56.840 --> 1:43:00.760 I was somewhat limited to sign the people that were 1:43:00.800 --> 1:43:03.360 within my sphere that I either knew or that I 1:43:03.439 --> 1:43:04.640 knew that they were available. 1:43:05.280 --> 1:43:08.040 Just a couple more Mango Santa Maria. 1:43:09.120 --> 1:43:13.240 Well, yes, and he came through the bigger label as well. 1:43:14.040 --> 1:43:18.120 Particular kind of sound, the Latin American sound that I 1:43:18.240 --> 1:43:22.000 wasn't doing with anybody else, made it possible for us 1:43:22.040 --> 1:43:23.479 to make some pretty cool. 1:43:23.320 --> 1:43:24.080 Records with him. 1:43:24.840 --> 1:43:29.200 And where did you come across? Alan Harris came to. 1:43:29.120 --> 1:43:35.799 Me through Columbia, through just and the most unusual Tapenzy project, 1:43:35.960 --> 1:43:39.200 I guess, and the one that I had the least 1:43:39.320 --> 1:43:40.320 influence over. 1:43:40.800 --> 1:43:41.960 I don't remember. 1:43:42.040 --> 1:43:45.040 Doing anything musically on it other than making it possible 1:43:45.080 --> 1:43:48.200 for him to do his thing and trying to treat 1:43:49.240 --> 1:43:52.120 him the way I would have wanted to be treated 1:43:52.160 --> 1:43:54.880 as a producer, make it possible for him to create 1:43:54.920 --> 1:43:55.439 his music. 1:43:56.200 --> 1:43:58.479 Okay, last one and the one I wanted to know 1:43:58.520 --> 1:44:00.880 the most about. It seemed to be kind of your 1:44:00.920 --> 1:44:04.000 partner at the label, which is Jay Chadaway. Can you 1:44:04.000 --> 1:44:06.599 tell us who a little bit about him? 1:44:07.080 --> 1:44:10.559 Well, I think I had maybe originally found out about 1:44:10.640 --> 1:44:13.599 him through Maynard Ferguson because he had done a lot 1:44:13.640 --> 1:44:19.160 of arranging from Maynard, and I was in need of 1:44:19.360 --> 1:44:22.439 somebody that had the same kind of arranging background as 1:44:22.479 --> 1:44:24.479 me because I was not able to keep up with 1:44:24.720 --> 1:44:28.000 the request that I was getting into do arrangements. 1:44:28.280 --> 1:44:31.719 So I started working with him in that way. 1:44:31.800 --> 1:44:34.680 I got to know him a little bit and we 1:44:34.800 --> 1:44:37.880 hit it off, and I knew he had a similar 1:44:38.160 --> 1:44:43.120 approach to sound production. And yeah, we had some really 1:44:43.880 --> 1:44:47.400 very good years and have remained friends. I just he's 1:44:47.439 --> 1:44:50.120 a big sailor fan. He and his wife live on 1:44:50.160 --> 1:44:51.840 a boat. A lot of times of the year, they 1:44:52.080 --> 1:44:55.200 take their take their boat to various places and just 1:44:55.240 --> 1:44:57.439 take up residence for. 1:44:57.439 --> 1:44:57.960 A long time. 1:44:58.040 --> 1:45:01.600 He moved after he after Z stopped, he moved to 1:45:01.720 --> 1:45:06.479 la and had a very successful career as a movie 1:45:06.520 --> 1:45:10.200 composer and he was very involved in the Star Trek series. 1:45:11.040 --> 1:45:12.160 Very very talented guy. 1:45:13.160 --> 1:45:15.400 Let me just wrap up the tappan Zee thing, Amir. 1:45:15.520 --> 1:45:18.479 You did such an incredible job with that label. Really 1:45:18.520 --> 1:45:20.560 the best thing that a label can do, which is 1:45:20.640 --> 1:45:25.719 create this whole world onto itself with all the beautiful 1:45:25.760 --> 1:45:29.639 continuity with the album covers, the beautiful gatefold album covers, 1:45:29.640 --> 1:45:32.920 and really you really knocked it out of the park 1:45:32.960 --> 1:45:35.880 with the with tap and Z was. I mean, you're 1:45:35.920 --> 1:45:38.800 welcome for all the rabbit holes folks out there with 1:45:38.840 --> 1:45:42.720 all those names. But all those tappan Ze records are great. Yeah, 1:45:43.080 --> 1:45:47.040 short related maybe not the Alan Harris record. 1:45:47.640 --> 1:45:51.880 Well, I wasn't going to say that, you said it now. 1:45:52.560 --> 1:45:53.200 Short thing. 1:45:53.360 --> 1:45:56.960 Since you mentioned Joe Jordanson, I more and more think 1:45:57.000 --> 1:46:01.080 that there just aren't really any total coincidences in life, 1:46:01.120 --> 1:46:05.439 that some things just happened for a reason. Recently, I 1:46:05.479 --> 1:46:11.000 was contacted by Joe's son, Michael Jordanson, who is interested 1:46:11.040 --> 1:46:14.320 in doing a biography on me, and he works with 1:46:14.400 --> 1:46:20.479 a video production company and I've been starting up a 1:46:20.479 --> 1:46:24.679 project in which he's going to do biographical thing. 1:46:25.120 --> 1:46:30.200 He's a member of the group Wilco Who's that's true. 1:46:30.760 --> 1:46:33.960 But when he grew up, he was when he was 1:46:34.040 --> 1:46:36.679 I don't know, ten or twelve years old, his father, 1:46:36.840 --> 1:46:39.240 Joe would invite him into the studio where we were 1:46:39.240 --> 1:46:42.280 making all those records. During that period of time, and 1:46:42.320 --> 1:46:45.840 he formed his taste and everything else based upon listening 1:46:45.920 --> 1:46:49.719 to all those records. And so many many years later 1:46:50.800 --> 1:46:53.720 after he's gone into business as a keyboard player and 1:46:53.800 --> 1:46:56.400 has a lot of success with Will Go. Now we're 1:46:56.439 --> 1:47:00.240 meeting again, and it gives me a chance to pay 1:47:00.320 --> 1:47:03.200 my respects and have such fond memories of all those 1:47:03.240 --> 1:47:04.320 great records. 1:47:03.960 --> 1:47:05.479 That Joe did with. 1:47:05.720 --> 1:47:08.759 Yeah, you hear that stand good terms with your engineer 1:47:08.880 --> 1:47:09.439 could pay off. 1:47:09.520 --> 1:47:13.000 Yes, what Steve very important. 1:47:13.120 --> 1:47:17.320 But your very first production was on another Creed Tailor 1:47:17.400 --> 1:47:22.519 label called Salvation with Goborbo, the Hungarian guitar player. What 1:47:22.600 --> 1:47:25.320 was that like your first production and what was Zabo 1:47:25.520 --> 1:47:28.080 like nineteen seventy five. 1:47:28.800 --> 1:47:30.880 Unique aspect of that for me was it was the 1:47:30.880 --> 1:47:33.720 only time that I was able to actually produce and 1:47:33.880 --> 1:47:37.559 do something without Creed Taylor being there. It was his label, 1:47:38.040 --> 1:47:40.280 but he gave me the flexibility to just do that 1:47:40.320 --> 1:47:42.599 project on my own, and I went out and. 1:47:43.040 --> 1:47:45.840 To La and did it. 1:47:46.400 --> 1:47:50.479 And he was gobor was definitely a gypsy and he 1:47:50.560 --> 1:47:57.360 had his own style of approach, which I tried to 1:47:57.479 --> 1:48:00.640 keep that gypsy aspect, but to try to bring some 1:48:00.680 --> 1:48:02.760 of my own style into it. I wish I could 1:48:02.760 --> 1:48:06.880 have done more with him because he is kind of 1:48:07.000 --> 1:48:12.240 like an ideal artist for an arranger to produce, because 1:48:12.760 --> 1:48:15.640 I want to have the tapestry surrounding him, but I 1:48:15.680 --> 1:48:18.960 want him to be able to stay within his own style, 1:48:19.040 --> 1:48:20.280 and that's what I was trying to do. 1:48:20.720 --> 1:48:24.240 Wow, Gary McFarland worked a lot with him in that regards. 1:48:24.720 --> 1:48:27.559 Yes, definitely, I love Gary McFarland's work. In fact, I 1:48:27.640 --> 1:48:28.439 was very influenced. 1:48:28.479 --> 1:48:31.000 But I used to study his records to try to 1:48:31.000 --> 1:48:33.240 figure out how he made his choices. 1:48:34.400 --> 1:48:36.519 Yeah, the Sign of the Times record. 1:48:37.160 --> 1:48:40.080 Now I get the film about to answer my own question, 1:48:40.120 --> 1:48:42.880 say Quincy Jones, but I'll ask you, how did you 1:48:43.840 --> 1:48:47.559 get involved with Rod Temperton working on that album? 1:48:48.560 --> 1:48:51.760 Quincy introduced me to Rod and he was in the 1:48:51.800 --> 1:48:53.640 studio and a couple of the records that I was 1:48:53.680 --> 1:48:58.240 involved with with Quincy, and I was a big fan 1:48:58.840 --> 1:49:02.759 admirer and Quence. He put us together because he thought 1:49:02.800 --> 1:49:06.519 that we might hit it off. And even though Rod 1:49:07.640 --> 1:49:14.000 specifically with his talent was not a classical music I 1:49:14.040 --> 1:49:19.760 didn't think that much of an influence, but as I 1:49:19.920 --> 1:49:25.600 was working with him, he just had a whole cinematic, 1:49:26.720 --> 1:49:32.080 classical way of talking to me, and we hit it 1:49:32.120 --> 1:49:38.360 off and I was trying to learn from him. I 1:49:38.360 --> 1:49:41.360 don't think Thriller had I can't remember where he was. 1:49:41.320 --> 1:49:44.360 And he just finished out The Wall and Thrillers about 1:49:44.400 --> 1:49:45.360 the kind of the next. 1:49:45.200 --> 1:49:46.719 Year, Yeah, so big. 1:49:47.160 --> 1:49:49.920 In other words, kind of out of my league, and 1:49:50.000 --> 1:49:51.800 I was kind of shocked that he was even willing 1:49:51.840 --> 1:49:54.880 to spend some time with me. But at least I 1:49:54.920 --> 1:49:57.280 had a chance to work in studio with him. He 1:49:57.360 --> 1:50:00.559 had his own complete language of how he talked and 1:50:00.560 --> 1:50:03.879 how he put together his vocals, and they were totally 1:50:03.880 --> 1:50:07.760 different from anything that I was aware of, So it 1:50:07.840 --> 1:50:14.120 was very much a learning process. And the difference, I 1:50:14.160 --> 1:50:19.600 guess the main difference in the success there was that 1:50:21.320 --> 1:50:23.760 when he worked with me, he had Bob James and 1:50:23.800 --> 1:50:27.919 when he worked with Michael Jackson he had Michael Jackson. 1:50:29.640 --> 1:50:32.240 That kind of says it all. That makes the difference 1:50:32.360 --> 1:50:33.519 in the success level. 1:50:33.960 --> 1:50:36.840 I guess you co scored one of my all time 1:50:37.840 --> 1:50:44.160 favorite films and I didn't realize it until maybe a 1:50:44.240 --> 1:50:47.759 year and a half ago during the pandemic that you 1:50:47.880 --> 1:50:52.640 created the King of Comedy score. So can you talk 1:50:52.680 --> 1:50:54.320 about working with Scorsese and. 1:50:55.280 --> 1:50:58.920 Well, you're crazy. Where do you get all these details? 1:50:59.280 --> 1:51:02.120 How do you feel? Well, you know more information than. 1:51:02.760 --> 1:51:07.200 Yeah, the pandemic happens, and trust me, the pandemic happens. 1:51:07.200 --> 1:51:10.600 You read all the fine print to keep yourself busy. 1:51:10.600 --> 1:51:13.400 Ash, I mean, I should have done a lot of 1:51:13.400 --> 1:51:15.040 homework before I did this. 1:51:16.640 --> 1:51:16.920 With you. 1:51:17.080 --> 1:51:21.439 Quest love you know so much. And I got to say, 1:51:22.120 --> 1:51:25.559 my memories of working on that are so vague in 1:51:25.600 --> 1:51:28.240 my mind now, I'm not sure that I even remember 1:51:28.280 --> 1:51:29.639 how to talk about it very much. 1:51:29.920 --> 1:51:32.400 You just threw it together and just gave it to him. 1:51:32.720 --> 1:51:35.960 Well, no, I mean I know that I was treating 1:51:35.960 --> 1:51:38.679 it very seriously at the time that I haven't listened 1:51:38.680 --> 1:51:41.920 back to it. But it's been twenty twenty five years ago, 1:51:42.080 --> 1:51:50.120 or at least forty, And when you reach my age, 1:51:50.400 --> 1:51:52.880 you know how hard it is to keep retaining a 1:51:52.880 --> 1:51:54.960 lot of those memories. You don't have much of a 1:51:55.000 --> 1:51:59.040 memory other than the way you described it as a 1:51:59.080 --> 1:52:03.800 weird film. Made a career assignment for me to make 1:52:03.920 --> 1:52:06.640 music for it. That's kind of about all I'd be 1:52:06.680 --> 1:52:07.840 able to say at this point. 1:52:08.200 --> 1:52:09.320 But do another zoom. 1:52:09.360 --> 1:52:11.920 I'll do some homework listen to it again and maybe 1:52:11.920 --> 1:52:13.800 I'll have something more intelligent to say. 1:52:14.520 --> 1:52:17.280 No, you know, I watch it like maybe five times 1:52:17.280 --> 1:52:20.519 a year, so for me, like I like when dark 1:52:20.600 --> 1:52:23.960 films have light music scores because it makes it even darker. 1:52:24.320 --> 1:52:30.080 So it contributes to the power, I think, rather than 1:52:30.200 --> 1:52:33.160 everything be dark as too obvious. 1:52:33.439 --> 1:52:35.880 Right, you're right, this is sort of on the same level. 1:52:36.600 --> 1:52:39.880 But so I used to work in a record store 1:52:40.040 --> 1:52:43.880 back in high school, and this is right when you 1:52:44.320 --> 1:52:50.960 and David Sanborn started your collaboration process. I think this 1:52:51.240 --> 1:52:54.600 was maybe this is the Double Vision album, but I 1:52:54.800 --> 1:52:58.880 just got to know this, you guys. Fade you guys, 1:52:59.000 --> 1:53:03.840 fade Algebra's voice right when he's about to start scatting 1:53:03.880 --> 1:53:08.360 like a madman on since I fail for you, and 1:53:09.479 --> 1:53:12.719 every time I hear it, like I'm now a collector 1:53:12.760 --> 1:53:15.920 of pro tools and whatnot, you know, Like I like 1:53:15.960 --> 1:53:18.679 hearing the original versions in its dry state and see 1:53:18.680 --> 1:53:23.760 what happens after the fate. But how long do you 1:53:23.800 --> 1:53:25.880 have any memory of how long that song goes on 1:53:26.080 --> 1:53:29.120 after the fade? Because right when the fade goes down, 1:53:29.160 --> 1:53:33.120 that's when like Algio just starts scatting out of his mind. 1:53:33.320 --> 1:53:36.880 And I always wanted to know what happens after that fad. 1:53:37.760 --> 1:53:42.120 Well, I can say that I was probably not there 1:53:42.240 --> 1:53:46.599 in the mix and the choice. I don't remember being there. 1:53:46.680 --> 1:53:49.240 I didn't produce that. I mean, it was my albums, 1:53:49.400 --> 1:53:55.040 my name on it, all right, but that fade. Usually 1:53:55.280 --> 1:53:58.800 I would have been very involved and very specifically with 1:53:59.120 --> 1:54:01.200 the last thing that you want people to hear, and 1:54:01.240 --> 1:54:02.679 you want it to be hot. 1:54:03.040 --> 1:54:06.400 You want it to be and I think the fade. 1:54:06.040 --> 1:54:09.040 Works just in the way you described it, because it 1:54:09.160 --> 1:54:11.639 left you wanting more, and it left it when it's 1:54:11.640 --> 1:54:15.559 at its most hot. What I would say about that 1:54:15.640 --> 1:54:22.120 record to you is that I'm very proud of the 1:54:22.200 --> 1:54:27.519 pre production and arranging and scoring that I did, which 1:54:27.680 --> 1:54:34.320 is would have been a conventional string orchestra and brass 1:54:34.360 --> 1:54:38.640 and whatever, but I chose to do it with my 1:54:39.280 --> 1:54:44.760 home studio equipment. And it's all the strings, all the horns, 1:54:44.920 --> 1:54:50.600 everything else are me synthesizers. And many people give me 1:54:50.680 --> 1:54:52.880 credit that when they hear it it sounds like a 1:54:52.920 --> 1:54:55.200 full large orchestra of production. 1:54:56.040 --> 1:54:59.440 But I had an otari a track. 1:54:59.680 --> 1:55:02.120 And this was in the era when you had the 1:55:02.240 --> 1:55:05.560 multi track studio or whatever in the studio and then 1:55:05.560 --> 1:55:08.680 you had to bounce down in order to do the overdub. 1:55:08.760 --> 1:55:11.680 So I took Bill say, I guess it was made 1:55:11.720 --> 1:55:16.280 a pre mix bouncing down and all of the basic 1:55:16.360 --> 1:55:17.000 tracks were on. 1:55:18.080 --> 1:55:20.200 He gave me four tracks or something like that to 1:55:20.240 --> 1:55:21.560 work with, and I. 1:55:22.560 --> 1:55:26.360 Created the woodwinds, the French horns and springs and all 1:55:26.400 --> 1:55:31.200 that were synthesized. And the part that I loved the 1:55:31.240 --> 1:55:35.880 most was in that exact section you're talking about, where 1:55:35.920 --> 1:55:41.320 he goes or something like that, and I scored it 1:55:41.680 --> 1:55:45.320 for the horns going in. The French horns echo that line. 1:55:45.920 --> 1:55:48.280 And because I had the rough mix that I was 1:55:49.200 --> 1:55:52.080 from that had his vocal already on it when I 1:55:52.120 --> 1:55:54.520 was working on my scoring, I was able to actually 1:55:54.720 --> 1:55:58.240 write the orchestration after the fact to make it sound 1:55:58.320 --> 1:56:01.400 like al was responding to the orchestra. 1:56:01.880 --> 1:56:04.120 So right, okay, but those. 1:56:03.920 --> 1:56:07.360 French horns were not there when he's sang it, so 1:56:07.360 --> 1:56:10.600 so I added the French horns before, so it make 1:56:10.680 --> 1:56:13.560 it sound like he was ad living to my orchestration. 1:56:14.080 --> 1:56:15.520 And if I do. 1:56:15.520 --> 1:56:17.920 This sort of like Steve Gadd's rumming. See now, now 1:56:17.960 --> 1:56:21.240 I realized the same exact approach. Yeah, the power the 1:56:21.280 --> 1:56:23.960 power of post production. Now that's that's the lesson I 1:56:24.040 --> 1:56:26.640 learned today. No, that was at the time when I 1:56:26.680 --> 1:56:31.480 was working at that record store. I think Moonlighting, Bruce 1:56:31.480 --> 1:56:36.040 Willison Sybil Shepherd's uh show, very popular show on ABC, 1:56:36.920 --> 1:56:41.880 had just started using that song. So suddenly a whole 1:56:42.720 --> 1:56:44.240 that was back in the day when like a show 1:56:44.360 --> 1:56:46.680 like that could feature a song, and then suddenly everybody's 1:56:46.720 --> 1:56:50.800 coming in requesting it. And yeah, when that that came out, 1:56:51.000 --> 1:56:53.920 just the whole world just started asking for Since I 1:56:54.120 --> 1:56:56.840 you know, fell for you that that uh that cover, 1:56:56.960 --> 1:56:58.520 so always want to do. 1:56:58.520 --> 1:57:04.880 That tables and ask you uh one question and yeah, absolutely, 1:57:05.080 --> 1:57:09.040 since I have the opportunity. Yeah, this is hypothetical only 1:57:09.760 --> 1:57:14.440 so since you nor I are kind of session players 1:57:14.520 --> 1:57:19.520 these days. But if we were in New York session players. 1:57:19.360 --> 1:57:20.200 Yes, let's do it. 1:57:20.520 --> 1:57:24.880 And there's a trio date that we were called upon 1:57:25.120 --> 1:57:29.560 to do, and you had me hell looking for a 1:57:29.600 --> 1:57:34.160 bass player. Who would you recommend do a trio date 1:57:34.840 --> 1:57:37.960 with with you on piano and me on drums? 1:57:38.040 --> 1:57:42.560 I mean the or we to do that? We I 1:57:42.560 --> 1:57:45.080 would actually let's. 1:57:44.960 --> 1:57:47.640 See who Derek hadge. 1:57:48.760 --> 1:57:52.880 I would say either Hajj or I would actually go 1:57:52.920 --> 1:57:58.120 with Pino of course, Yeah, I would go with Pino. 1:57:58.720 --> 1:58:02.200 Derek Hodge can go with Christian Mcbriene McBride. But Pino, 1:58:02.520 --> 1:58:05.440 you know, I like, I've worked. 1:58:05.160 --> 1:58:08.360 With you know a little bit many years ago, and 1:58:08.520 --> 1:58:10.920 Christian McBride I did an album with, so that could 1:58:10.920 --> 1:58:11.120 be that. 1:58:11.200 --> 1:58:14.120 But the Pino is more on your knowledge since you've 1:58:14.520 --> 1:58:15.800 worked with them. Let's go with that. 1:58:16.360 --> 1:58:18.240 Are you are you committed to a label right now? 1:58:18.800 --> 1:58:20.600 Top and Z I will do it. 1:58:21.600 --> 1:58:24.800 I got to say, I'm sorry, this is I have 1:58:24.840 --> 1:58:26.360 to cut in here because I have my own jazz 1:58:26.440 --> 1:58:30.560 label here as well. Uh thanks, thanks partially to my 1:58:30.640 --> 1:58:35.520 love for Tap and Z and and uh we can 1:58:35.560 --> 1:58:38.800 go co co on that if you're if you're interested. 1:58:38.840 --> 1:58:42.000 But I was only joking about Z. It's it's kind 1:58:42.000 --> 1:58:42.680 of let's. 1:58:42.520 --> 1:58:46.760 Bring it back, man, let's bring it back. JM I. 1:58:46.760 --> 1:58:49.160 I'm signed as d M I for all my jazz stuff. 1:58:49.200 --> 1:58:51.080 So I got to ask my label president right here. 1:58:51.160 --> 1:58:54.760 Yeah, I think we're good for We're good for a 1:58:54.760 --> 1:58:57.520 Bob James Pinal question. Yes, we'll sign on for that. 1:58:57.600 --> 1:59:00.240 We are absolutely going to do that. You and I'm 1:59:00.280 --> 1:59:01.400 not doing that like fake. 1:59:01.520 --> 1:59:04.360 You heard it here first, people No, we're making I'm 1:59:04.360 --> 1:59:06.840 telling you, I got so much envy when I saw 1:59:07.720 --> 1:59:11.240 that clip at Blue Mine, and then you know I 1:59:11.320 --> 1:59:15.200 was working all weeks. So but no, you're You're a 1:59:15.200 --> 1:59:18.600 favorite of mine, and you know I thank you for 1:59:18.680 --> 1:59:21.200 letting us nerd out on you for two hours. 1:59:21.520 --> 1:59:23.520 Yes, we will make this happen. 1:59:24.000 --> 1:59:26.680 Yay, yay, Okay, I hope that was recorded. 1:59:27.240 --> 1:59:28.879 Yes, it's absolutely recorded. 1:59:29.240 --> 1:59:32.240 You can sue me if I renigg on on on 1:59:32.240 --> 1:59:35.680 on this on this audio contract. 1:59:36.000 --> 1:59:36.480 Let's do it. 1:59:36.600 --> 1:59:39.320 Soon because of the age factor, so we don't. 1:59:39.760 --> 1:59:42.040 Yes, I don't know if I have much time left. 1:59:42.080 --> 1:59:43.000 So yes, I will do it. 1:59:43.080 --> 1:59:45.680 You will be here forever, trust me, Steve. I'll leave 1:59:45.720 --> 1:59:47.520 you with the last question. Then I'm signed out. 1:59:47.680 --> 1:59:50.560 Yeah, last question. Whose idea was it to name the 1:59:50.600 --> 1:59:53.480 first for Bob James albums one, two, three, four, because 1:59:53.480 --> 1:59:57.240 we're modeling Ray Angry's catalog after that on our label. 1:59:57.280 --> 2:00:00.200 But was that preconceived or did you just do that 2:00:00.240 --> 2:00:00.720 as it went on? 2:00:00.880 --> 2:00:03.400 I think Cree Taylor's idea and the way he explained 2:00:03.400 --> 2:00:05.800 it to me at that time, because we were very 2:00:05.800 --> 2:00:10.840 aware of Chicago, the group Chicago had done talk about 2:00:10.840 --> 2:00:14.040 it a lot and the way I remember Creed thinking 2:00:14.080 --> 2:00:18.480 about it strategically was that. And this was nice that 2:00:18.560 --> 2:00:22.000 he was thinking that I might have longevity. But if 2:00:22.000 --> 2:00:24.520 you name if, if you name it that way, you 2:00:24.560 --> 2:00:27.760 get to your album five and the people are fans, 2:00:28.400 --> 2:00:30.520 they know that they got four that they have to. 2:00:30.520 --> 2:00:33.600 Collect, so collect the. 2:00:33.520 --> 2:00:35.720 More records you make, and I did have. 2:00:35.760 --> 2:00:37.960 It happened to me that after I got up to 2:00:38.040 --> 2:00:42.360 ten or whatever, that the avid fans know what they 2:00:42.400 --> 2:00:44.360 have to look for that, oh I don't have eight 2:00:44.480 --> 2:00:47.000 or I don't have And I heard him talking about that, 2:00:47.080 --> 2:00:50.040 but that was that was what was in his mind. 2:00:50.360 --> 2:00:52.640 Oh my gosh, thank you, thank you for it. 2:00:53.200 --> 2:00:55.120 Do you have time for me to tell you one 2:00:55.120 --> 2:00:58.720 more little thing, because yes, you and I encountered each 2:00:58.760 --> 2:01:01.760 other when I came in the middle of your back 2:01:01.800 --> 2:01:03.960 and forth thing that you had going with Bis Marquis 2:01:04.560 --> 2:01:05.400 about the bells. 2:01:05.680 --> 2:01:07.120 Damn, I forgot about the bells. 2:01:07.560 --> 2:01:09.920 Sure that he's no longer with us, can you just 2:01:09.960 --> 2:01:13.240 release a copy of PI Peter Piper without the bells? 2:01:13.800 --> 2:01:15.720 Well, here's what I wanted to tell you. 2:01:15.840 --> 2:01:18.600 I did a little round table at the Blue Note 2:01:19.600 --> 2:01:23.240 with some hip hop guys and we had a surprise 2:01:23.320 --> 2:01:27.080 for them because my engineer, David, we had gone out 2:01:27.080 --> 2:01:30.840 to Iron Mountain to check out my master recordings, the 2:01:30.920 --> 2:01:36.280 multi tracks and so, and got the multi tracks from 2:01:36.400 --> 2:01:41.160 those sessions for that album Take Me to Marti Gras, 2:01:41.360 --> 2:01:45.680 And we have an outtake of a different take of 2:01:45.720 --> 2:01:48.000 Taking Me to the Marti Gras that David made a 2:01:48.040 --> 2:01:50.640 rough mix that played it for these guys at the 2:01:50.720 --> 2:01:56.360 roundtable that nobody had heard before, and it's got the 2:01:56.400 --> 2:01:58.480 bells on there. But I have the multi tracks and 2:01:58.560 --> 2:02:00.800 I could do whatever I want. And when I went 2:02:00.840 --> 2:02:03.200 to Iron Mountain to check them out to make sure 2:02:03.240 --> 2:02:06.280 that the multi tracks were still in good shape, I 2:02:06.320 --> 2:02:08.240 was able to sit at the console and push a 2:02:08.280 --> 2:02:10.160 solo button and hear. 2:02:10.120 --> 2:02:11.800 Boom boom boom boom boom. 2:02:13.600 --> 2:02:13.880 Wow. 2:02:15.160 --> 2:02:18.040 Uh. And it's a different a little bit different groove 2:02:18.280 --> 2:02:18.880 and play. 2:02:19.000 --> 2:02:22.640 I played the melody differently, different keyboard solo in the middle, 2:02:22.880 --> 2:02:25.320 and of course it doesn't have any other production than 2:02:25.360 --> 2:02:27.680 any of the strings all that other stuff. 2:02:27.720 --> 2:02:28.480 Because he's out. 2:02:28.920 --> 2:02:31.520 I do have a question, but just a bonus question. 2:02:32.360 --> 2:02:35.000 You you have a tendency to use a lot of 2:02:35.160 --> 2:02:39.880 sound effects on your What's the purpose of that, because 2:02:39.920 --> 2:02:43.120 even with take Me to the Mani Gras, and even 2:02:43.160 --> 2:02:46.920 with Alley of the Shadows, Like, what was the purpose 2:02:46.920 --> 2:02:50.000 in using those like sound effect records on top of 2:02:50.040 --> 2:02:52.240 the music cinematic? 2:02:52.400 --> 2:02:55.320 I don't know that we were even that specific about it. 2:02:55.360 --> 2:02:59.320 But the atmosphere with Take Me to the Marti grad 2:02:59.320 --> 2:03:01.920 we were trying to create the party in New Orleans 2:03:02.000 --> 2:03:04.840 kind of an atmosphere. So that was that one was 2:03:04.840 --> 2:03:05.440 pretty clear. 2:03:05.520 --> 2:03:10.720 But which animal sounds No, I don't know. It just 2:03:10.760 --> 2:03:12.400 like this sounds like a bunch of sheep in the 2:03:12.440 --> 2:03:13.320 background or something. 2:03:13.360 --> 2:03:16.920 But it sounds it sounds like they were just having fun, 2:03:17.320 --> 2:03:19.360 is what. It sounds like a lot On Chapanzee, they 2:03:19.440 --> 2:03:20.880 use a lot of sound effects on tap and z 2:03:21.040 --> 2:03:22.800 and it's just you know, you can tell they're just 2:03:22.800 --> 2:03:23.560 having a blast. 2:03:23.920 --> 2:03:27.320 Yeah, we're gonna have new sound effects that we'll be able. 2:03:27.200 --> 2:03:27.640 To do with it. 2:03:28.280 --> 2:03:29.400 Let's make it happen. 2:03:30.640 --> 2:03:33.920 We're all analog though, so bring your analog thoughts. 2:03:34.320 --> 2:03:35.440 Yes, we'll do this. 2:03:35.640 --> 2:03:39.720 So on Behalf of Sick Steve Laya fon Diicgelo and 2:03:39.760 --> 2:03:42.360 on Paid Bill. This is Quest Love talking to the 2:03:42.400 --> 2:03:48.360 great Immortal Bob James, my my future collaborator. Yeah, We're gon, 2:03:48.520 --> 2:03:51.000 We're gonna do this project and up your grammy count. 2:03:51.320 --> 2:03:54.000 I'm calling it right now. This is Quest Love Supreme, 2:03:54.080 --> 2:03:57.720 one of the dude. This NERD's paradise right now and 2:03:57.840 --> 2:03:59.920 I'm happy and I'll see you guys on the next. 2:04:00.440 --> 2:04:12.560 West Love Supreme Zeo. West Love Supreme is a production 2:04:12.760 --> 2:04:13.960 of iHeartRadio. 2:04:17.720 --> 2:04:22.120 For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 2:04:22.600 --> 2:04:24.280 or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.