1 00:00:08,245 --> 00:00:14,365 Speaker 1: School of Humans. As I go through the case file 2 00:00:14,525 --> 00:00:19,005 Speaker 1: one last time, three moments stand out to me. It's 3 00:00:19,045 --> 00:00:23,565 Speaker 1: September eleventh, nineteen eighty nine, two days after Janie Ward died. 4 00:00:24,605 --> 00:00:28,925 Speaker 1: It's around noon at the Junction Liquor store in Big Flat, Arkansas. 5 00:00:29,445 --> 00:00:32,965 Speaker 1: A pickup truck pulls into the parking lot. Gary Don 6 00:00:33,045 --> 00:00:35,325 Speaker 1: is the driver, and he's hauling two kegs off the 7 00:00:35,365 --> 00:00:38,405 Speaker 1: back of the truck. He comes inside says that one 8 00:00:38,445 --> 00:00:41,125 Speaker 1: of the kegs is untapped and he wants a refund. 9 00:00:42,165 --> 00:00:45,845 Speaker 1: His request is denied. The keg is several days old 10 00:00:45,925 --> 00:00:49,125 Speaker 1: and it hadn't been on ice. Gary Don asks again, 11 00:00:49,405 --> 00:00:53,925 Speaker 1: more aggressively. This time he is refused again. He hadn't 12 00:00:53,965 --> 00:00:57,325 Speaker 1: even brought one of the keg taps back. Gary Don 13 00:00:57,365 --> 00:01:00,605 Speaker 1: gives up. He slams the door of his truck, annoyed 14 00:01:00,645 --> 00:01:08,285 Speaker 1: that he couldn't get the money back. It's April two 15 00:01:08,325 --> 00:01:11,885 Speaker 1: thousand and seven and investigators are asking Sherry, who was 16 00:01:11,925 --> 00:01:15,085 Speaker 1: one of the passengers in Ron Roses truck, about the 17 00:01:15,205 --> 00:01:18,125 Speaker 1: night Janie died and what she thinks happened. There's no 18 00:01:18,125 --> 00:01:22,685 Speaker 1: one down there fighting, There is no one doing anything here. 19 00:01:23,005 --> 00:01:24,725 Speaker 1: She had no one who did find her there was 20 00:01:24,805 --> 00:01:27,485 Speaker 1: no boy that she was dating someone else's life, and 21 00:01:28,005 --> 00:01:30,005 Speaker 1: you know all those unders that have always gone around. 22 00:01:30,165 --> 00:01:32,885 Speaker 1: So that's why I just don't believe that anything happened 23 00:01:32,885 --> 00:01:35,725 Speaker 1: there in all these hears in school, even saying they're 24 00:01:35,765 --> 00:01:39,605 Speaker 1: rum and rumors among the kids. No, the only ones 25 00:01:39,685 --> 00:01:43,885 Speaker 1: who've ever made allegations and who brought up rumor had 26 00:01:43,885 --> 00:01:48,125 Speaker 1: been her parents and adults, not the kids. There's no 27 00:01:48,205 --> 00:01:50,525 Speaker 1: way that if something bad had happened, it would have 28 00:01:50,565 --> 00:01:54,045 Speaker 1: not somehow gotten through the kids in school. Even teachers 29 00:01:54,085 --> 00:01:56,645 Speaker 1: here things. The teacher's never heard anything because we see 30 00:01:56,685 --> 00:01:59,925 Speaker 1: these outside. So I mean, I don't know. I'm times 31 00:01:59,965 --> 00:02:05,485 Speaker 1: that anything happened to her. That same day, Investigators interview Kim. 32 00:02:05,685 --> 00:02:09,725 Speaker 1: She says that September ninth, nineteen eighty nine, was the 33 00:02:09,765 --> 00:02:13,005 Speaker 1: worst day of her life. Fourth day in my life. 34 00:02:13,245 --> 00:02:17,725 Speaker 1: I I can understand. It's been thirty years and we 35 00:02:17,885 --> 00:02:22,325 Speaker 1: still don't know how Janie Ward died. I'm Catherine Townsend 36 00:02:23,005 --> 00:03:01,045 Speaker 1: and this is Helen Gone. Janie's third autopsy was filled 37 00:03:01,085 --> 00:03:04,085 Speaker 1: with observers. There was a representative for the Ward family, 38 00:03:04,365 --> 00:03:09,125 Speaker 1: a forensic anthropology, and ABC had their FBI consultant, Brad 39 00:03:09,125 --> 00:03:13,285 Speaker 1: Garrett in the room. Brad worked at the FBI for years. 40 00:03:13,805 --> 00:03:17,445 Speaker 1: He worked on tons of high profile cases. Because of this, 41 00:03:18,125 --> 00:03:21,805 Speaker 1: he got the nickname doctor Death. When he first started 42 00:03:21,805 --> 00:03:25,605 Speaker 1: looking into Janey's case, even before the third autopsy, he 43 00:03:25,645 --> 00:03:29,125 Speaker 1: didn't think anything pointed to a homicide. Well, it was 44 00:03:29,325 --> 00:03:33,805 Speaker 1: really unclear to me based on the initial evidence that 45 00:03:33,965 --> 00:03:38,085 Speaker 1: looked at you. And I will say that it struck 46 00:03:38,125 --> 00:03:40,685 Speaker 1: me that the Arkansas State Police really did a great 47 00:03:40,805 --> 00:03:44,125 Speaker 1: job of trying to figure out what really happened at 48 00:03:44,125 --> 00:03:48,125 Speaker 1: this cabin. And I started get in the flavor of 49 00:03:48,325 --> 00:03:51,485 Speaker 1: and I totally ABC this early on was I'm not 50 00:03:51,525 --> 00:03:55,245 Speaker 1: sure this is a homicide. It could be, but it's 51 00:03:55,285 --> 00:03:58,045 Speaker 1: not in my mind, not at least at that point 52 00:03:58,085 --> 00:04:04,405 Speaker 1: going together as sort of a clearcutter of an homicide 53 00:04:04,405 --> 00:04:07,565 Speaker 1: that it really could be something else. Is there anything 54 00:04:07,605 --> 00:04:10,165 Speaker 1: specific that you remember about this case in terms of that. 55 00:04:10,925 --> 00:04:13,125 Speaker 1: Is it more challenging than cases like it? Is it 56 00:04:13,165 --> 00:04:16,325 Speaker 1: similar to what makes it different? The important thing for 57 00:04:16,405 --> 00:04:21,445 Speaker 1: the public to understand is that people form opinions about 58 00:04:21,525 --> 00:04:26,965 Speaker 1: what happens in cases. Obviously, families God bless them, form 59 00:04:27,005 --> 00:04:30,925 Speaker 1: their own opinions because it's very difficult. And let me 60 00:04:30,925 --> 00:04:33,805 Speaker 1: tell you I've worked a number of child deaths. It's 61 00:04:33,925 --> 00:04:37,085 Speaker 1: very difficult for parents to accept that, you know, their 62 00:04:37,165 --> 00:04:40,005 Speaker 1: child in effect either died by accident or by their 63 00:04:40,045 --> 00:04:42,605 Speaker 1: own hand. In this case, I'm not suggesting at all 64 00:04:42,605 --> 00:04:45,405 Speaker 1: this was by our own hand, but the point being, 65 00:04:45,485 --> 00:04:48,005 Speaker 1: there's like this opinion form. Then then the parents in 66 00:04:48,045 --> 00:04:52,525 Speaker 1: a very rural county now are promoting that this was 67 00:04:52,565 --> 00:04:55,605 Speaker 1: a homicide. They're not really going to be interested in 68 00:04:55,685 --> 00:05:00,885 Speaker 1: anything but an outcome that says that. And you made it. 69 00:05:00,925 --> 00:05:04,565 Speaker 1: You said something in the program about talking to the kids, 70 00:05:04,565 --> 00:05:06,645 Speaker 1: and you said it'd be hard to have a conspiracy 71 00:05:06,685 --> 00:05:10,365 Speaker 1: if there were something like twenty people with a similar story. Yeah, 72 00:05:10,405 --> 00:05:14,205 Speaker 1: I mean, I find most conspiracies laughable because you know, 73 00:05:14,245 --> 00:05:16,925 Speaker 1: I used to hear these constantly that you know, the 74 00:05:17,085 --> 00:05:20,365 Speaker 1: FBI colluded to cover up. You can't get two agents 75 00:05:20,405 --> 00:05:23,765 Speaker 1: to collude on something, so let alone to get an 76 00:05:23,885 --> 00:05:27,205 Speaker 1: entire system too, and what would be the motive of 77 00:05:27,285 --> 00:05:30,205 Speaker 1: doing that? But I realized that there was, you know, 78 00:05:31,125 --> 00:05:33,845 Speaker 1: controversy if that's the right word, with a local judge 79 00:05:33,845 --> 00:05:37,885 Speaker 1: and a local judge's daughter, and you know, allegations made 80 00:05:38,525 --> 00:05:42,005 Speaker 1: with really nothing factually just supported. Of course, many of 81 00:05:42,005 --> 00:05:44,085 Speaker 1: the suspicions that get brought up in the news articles 82 00:05:44,085 --> 00:05:47,325 Speaker 1: about Jane and on the Justice for Jennie forums have answers, 83 00:05:47,765 --> 00:05:50,565 Speaker 1: but these are still questions that get brought up constantly, 84 00:05:51,325 --> 00:05:56,245 Speaker 1: and rumors continue in Marshall across Arkansas and as Janie's 85 00:05:56,285 --> 00:05:59,485 Speaker 1: case continued to get traction across the nation. You know, 86 00:05:59,565 --> 00:06:05,805 Speaker 1: anytime you have I suppose public exposure of a case 87 00:06:05,885 --> 00:06:11,245 Speaker 1: that draws particular conclusions, or you know, for example, when 88 00:06:11,285 --> 00:06:15,445 Speaker 1: you look at the second autopsy, which you know, sort 89 00:06:15,485 --> 00:06:19,485 Speaker 1: of reinforce the Wards belief that Godter was murdered, you know, 90 00:06:19,885 --> 00:06:23,005 Speaker 1: you then you know, sort of get an emotional reaction 91 00:06:23,205 --> 00:06:27,805 Speaker 1: from the community as to you know, well maybe that's 92 00:06:27,805 --> 00:06:31,085 Speaker 1: what happened, you know, whether it's really true or not. 93 00:06:31,205 --> 00:06:36,045 Speaker 1: But you know, we're all i think suspect or vulnerable 94 00:06:36,085 --> 00:06:40,165 Speaker 1: to the stories of others in driving our own narrative. 95 00:06:40,165 --> 00:06:42,285 Speaker 1: I mean, that's the problem today and trying to figure 96 00:06:42,325 --> 00:06:46,005 Speaker 1: out what's actually true, and certain people speaks to just 97 00:06:46,125 --> 00:06:48,885 Speaker 1: accept it or question it as to well, that doesn't 98 00:06:48,885 --> 00:06:52,525 Speaker 1: make any sense, it's probably not true. And so you know, people, 99 00:06:52,605 --> 00:06:57,845 Speaker 1: particularly folks like average everyday citizens, they don't really know, 100 00:06:58,245 --> 00:07:00,285 Speaker 1: I mean from the standpoint of what is it? What 101 00:07:00,325 --> 00:07:03,045 Speaker 1: does it take to actually prove these cases? Is there 102 00:07:03,205 --> 00:07:07,485 Speaker 1: really any evidence to support one's or the other other 103 00:07:07,565 --> 00:07:10,725 Speaker 1: than this sort of idle chat about it or what 104 00:07:10,925 --> 00:07:14,925 Speaker 1: some media outlet might say about it. I will tell 105 00:07:14,965 --> 00:07:19,285 Speaker 1: you because I've worked so many high profile cases that 106 00:07:20,645 --> 00:07:24,045 Speaker 1: I just sort of ignore all that because you know, 107 00:07:24,085 --> 00:07:27,405 Speaker 1: the facts are the facts, and wherever they drive you to. 108 00:07:27,645 --> 00:07:33,645 Speaker 1: Now you know, sadly the facts don't always because maybe 109 00:07:33,645 --> 00:07:36,805 Speaker 1: even the lack of facts or evidence, you know, they 110 00:07:36,925 --> 00:07:43,045 Speaker 1: draw you to not a really solid conclusion. When I 111 00:07:43,085 --> 00:07:46,725 Speaker 1: talked to the ward's lawyer, Jerry Sallings, he didn't think 112 00:07:46,765 --> 00:07:50,805 Speaker 1: the first investigation was done very well. But Brad Garrett 113 00:07:50,845 --> 00:07:53,325 Speaker 1: said he thought the Arkansas State Police did a pretty 114 00:07:53,325 --> 00:07:56,965 Speaker 1: thorough job investigating what happened, particularly because it was all 115 00:07:57,005 --> 00:07:58,965 Speaker 1: happening in such a small town. I know, I was 116 00:07:59,005 --> 00:08:02,085 Speaker 1: a little surprised the witness statement seemed really short, and 117 00:08:02,165 --> 00:08:06,445 Speaker 1: also they didn't I was surprised that weren't They weren't 118 00:08:06,485 --> 00:08:10,605 Speaker 1: separated in question that night and in a more fair away, right, 119 00:08:10,645 --> 00:08:14,525 Speaker 1: because I thought that made it difficult later. Right, So, 120 00:08:14,765 --> 00:08:18,085 Speaker 1: investigative protocol is supposed to sort of be the template 121 00:08:18,125 --> 00:08:22,525 Speaker 1: of how you investigate a case, separate the witnesses, sort 122 00:08:22,565 --> 00:08:25,285 Speaker 1: of locked down the scene, and basically you don't let 123 00:08:25,325 --> 00:08:27,445 Speaker 1: anybody leave, or you make sure you've got the names 124 00:08:27,485 --> 00:08:29,085 Speaker 1: of all the people that were there, which in a 125 00:08:29,125 --> 00:08:32,085 Speaker 1: place like Marshall, Arkansas, shouldn't be that difficult. But you 126 00:08:32,885 --> 00:08:35,285 Speaker 1: still have to understand that I doubt if they were 127 00:08:35,325 --> 00:08:39,885 Speaker 1: thinking that way. Let's face it, a deputy sheriff in 128 00:08:39,925 --> 00:08:44,925 Speaker 1: that county, I'm sure doesn't make much money. That obviously 129 00:08:44,925 --> 00:08:48,725 Speaker 1: affects the quality of person you're going to get. And again, 130 00:08:48,925 --> 00:08:50,925 Speaker 1: it's nothing against the people who were there who did this, 131 00:08:51,045 --> 00:08:53,965 Speaker 1: It's just that it's going to be hard to get 132 00:08:53,965 --> 00:08:56,605 Speaker 1: somebody that really has a lot of experience or super 133 00:08:56,685 --> 00:09:00,365 Speaker 1: qualified to work in a super rural county unless they've 134 00:09:00,365 --> 00:09:04,405 Speaker 1: got some passion about living there. On Janie's death certificate, 135 00:09:04,885 --> 00:09:08,405 Speaker 1: both the and the cause of death are still undetermined. 136 00:09:09,245 --> 00:09:12,285 Speaker 1: But because it's not definitive, can we say that the 137 00:09:12,325 --> 00:09:15,125 Speaker 1: Wards are completely wrong in their perception of what happened, 138 00:09:15,725 --> 00:09:19,405 Speaker 1: that their daughter was murdered, and can anything we find 139 00:09:19,485 --> 00:09:22,285 Speaker 1: support what the family believes. You're not going to make 140 00:09:22,365 --> 00:09:26,725 Speaker 1: any family feel better unless it fits the fact patterns 141 00:09:27,085 --> 00:09:31,005 Speaker 1: as to how they want it to be, and so 142 00:09:32,445 --> 00:09:38,165 Speaker 1: could anything else be done in this case to support 143 00:09:38,205 --> 00:09:41,325 Speaker 1: the family's fact pattern And I don't think there is, 144 00:09:41,365 --> 00:09:44,965 Speaker 1: because I don't think there's evidence to support that. You know, 145 00:09:45,125 --> 00:09:49,925 Speaker 1: like that one totally unreliable witness claimed that she was 146 00:09:50,245 --> 00:09:54,925 Speaker 1: struck with a board or a bat or a club 147 00:09:55,525 --> 00:09:57,205 Speaker 1: and that she went down. First of all, there was 148 00:09:57,245 --> 00:10:00,325 Speaker 1: no evidence, there was no forensic evidence on her body 149 00:10:00,405 --> 00:10:06,605 Speaker 1: to support that. But again, there's nothing to suitue that 150 00:10:06,765 --> 00:10:11,605 Speaker 1: any of that occurred. So you know, I've walked away 151 00:10:11,605 --> 00:10:15,605 Speaker 1: from a number of families basically telling them literally everything 152 00:10:15,685 --> 00:10:19,685 Speaker 1: I could tell them about a case that was appropriate 153 00:10:19,685 --> 00:10:22,925 Speaker 1: to tell them, and you know, they're just not happy 154 00:10:22,965 --> 00:10:26,205 Speaker 1: with what I'm saying, and I fully accept that and 155 00:10:26,205 --> 00:10:29,125 Speaker 1: say I totally understand, so that I can only be 156 00:10:29,245 --> 00:10:32,805 Speaker 1: driven by the facts, my own experience, what the forensics 157 00:10:32,805 --> 00:10:36,525 Speaker 1: tell me, and I have to go with that. So 158 00:10:37,165 --> 00:10:39,925 Speaker 1: you know, I'm open to if you or somebody else 159 00:10:39,925 --> 00:10:44,485 Speaker 1: could tell me that contradicts what this sort of general 160 00:10:44,525 --> 00:10:48,925 Speaker 1: conclusion is about this particular case. Great, but nobody has 161 00:10:48,965 --> 00:10:51,285 Speaker 1: ever come up with that because I just don't think 162 00:10:51,285 --> 00:10:55,005 Speaker 1: it exists. Now, I will say one thing about that 163 00:10:55,765 --> 00:10:59,765 Speaker 1: you know, every case is like a pie. Investigators have 164 00:10:59,885 --> 00:11:03,565 Speaker 1: part of it, The prosecutor obviously has a huge part 165 00:11:03,605 --> 00:11:07,725 Speaker 1: of it. The medical exam there and the medical professionals 166 00:11:07,765 --> 00:11:10,725 Speaker 1: for instant anthropologies, et cetera have a part of it. 167 00:11:10,765 --> 00:11:13,325 Speaker 1: But you have to take each one of them in perspective, 168 00:11:13,845 --> 00:11:16,445 Speaker 1: you know, And what if you put them all together, 169 00:11:17,245 --> 00:11:19,725 Speaker 1: then what do you have, you know, with all the 170 00:11:19,765 --> 00:11:23,365 Speaker 1: failings and biases and pinions and so forth. But what 171 00:11:23,405 --> 00:11:26,325 Speaker 1: do you have at the at the end of all that, 172 00:11:26,485 --> 00:11:28,885 Speaker 1: of that pie going together? And you know, and so 173 00:11:29,365 --> 00:11:32,285 Speaker 1: I say that in that when you take the first 174 00:11:32,365 --> 00:11:36,525 Speaker 1: or second autopsy, Okay, they found X or Y, fine, 175 00:11:37,245 --> 00:11:40,965 Speaker 1: is there anything beyond with the medical examiner, Let's face it, 176 00:11:41,045 --> 00:11:44,845 Speaker 1: that's a political examination of a body that's not with 177 00:11:45,045 --> 00:11:51,045 Speaker 1: all the facts and circumstances that cops, detectives, prosecutors are 178 00:11:51,165 --> 00:11:57,045 Speaker 1: finding through evidence collected through interviews with people at the sea, 179 00:11:57,765 --> 00:12:00,805 Speaker 1: people who saw her fall, people who thought she was choking, 180 00:12:01,085 --> 00:12:03,245 Speaker 1: people who poured beer on her. If that was the case, 181 00:12:03,405 --> 00:12:05,805 Speaker 1: all of these things, you know, the medical him were 182 00:12:05,845 --> 00:12:08,245 Speaker 1: supposed to stick to his or her lane. This is 183 00:12:08,285 --> 00:12:11,925 Speaker 1: what I found in the autopsy, and it great. And 184 00:12:11,965 --> 00:12:14,805 Speaker 1: then you go from there. So what you have in 185 00:12:14,925 --> 00:12:20,765 Speaker 1: this case is a third autopsy by a sort of 186 00:12:20,805 --> 00:12:25,245 Speaker 1: a seasoned professional and a forensic anthropologist to tell you 187 00:12:26,125 --> 00:12:28,965 Speaker 1: the fact pattern that she was beaten to death with 188 00:12:29,045 --> 00:12:34,485 Speaker 1: something is not there. We'll be right back. We've been 189 00:12:34,525 --> 00:12:38,245 Speaker 1: able to answer some questions about the circumstances surrounding Janie's death. 190 00:12:38,725 --> 00:12:41,045 Speaker 1: Our producer, Gaby and I sorted through what we know, 191 00:12:41,885 --> 00:12:45,005 Speaker 1: what we don't know, and at this point what we 192 00:12:45,085 --> 00:12:47,525 Speaker 1: can't know. One of the things that the family thought 193 00:12:47,685 --> 00:12:51,765 Speaker 1: was suspicious was the fact that Jannie's dad, Ron Ward, 194 00:12:51,885 --> 00:12:55,085 Speaker 1: said that he had seen Jane in a different shirt 195 00:12:55,365 --> 00:12:57,565 Speaker 1: when he saw at the morgue the night that she died, 196 00:12:57,845 --> 00:13:01,325 Speaker 1: versus what he saw in some photos that the investigator, 197 00:13:01,325 --> 00:13:04,925 Speaker 1: Bill Beach had showed him a couple of weeks later. 198 00:13:05,205 --> 00:13:07,205 Speaker 1: We did look into the shirt and we did figure 199 00:13:07,205 --> 00:13:10,005 Speaker 1: out some things about the shirt. So what were some 200 00:13:10,045 --> 00:13:12,445 Speaker 1: of those things. Well, we figured out first of all, 201 00:13:12,565 --> 00:13:15,765 Speaker 1: that Jane stayed the night before the party with her 202 00:13:15,765 --> 00:13:20,445 Speaker 1: friend Leslie, and according to Leslie, Janny borrowed that shirt 203 00:13:20,445 --> 00:13:24,725 Speaker 1: from her, and so she was wearing both. Multiple witnesses 204 00:13:24,765 --> 00:13:28,165 Speaker 1: said that they saw her wearing the black t shirt 205 00:13:28,245 --> 00:13:32,605 Speaker 1: over the white pin striped shirt, because, including ambulance attendants 206 00:13:32,605 --> 00:13:35,485 Speaker 1: who were trying to revive her at the scene, they 207 00:13:35,525 --> 00:13:39,285 Speaker 1: specifically remembered rolling the sleeves up and pulling up the 208 00:13:39,285 --> 00:13:41,285 Speaker 1: bottom of the shirt to expose her stomach, and rolling 209 00:13:41,325 --> 00:13:44,445 Speaker 1: up the sleeves to expose her arms. At some point, 210 00:13:44,565 --> 00:13:47,965 Speaker 1: someone must have removed the white pin striped shirt and 211 00:13:48,445 --> 00:13:51,485 Speaker 1: what happened to that item of clothing is a mystery 212 00:13:51,565 --> 00:13:54,205 Speaker 1: because we know that it was lost by law enforcement 213 00:13:54,245 --> 00:13:56,885 Speaker 1: at some point. And that's just another one of the 214 00:13:56,885 --> 00:13:59,405 Speaker 1: tragedies of this case because one of the biggest questions 215 00:13:59,445 --> 00:14:02,485 Speaker 1: that the family had was why how she got all 216 00:14:02,525 --> 00:14:05,405 Speaker 1: that debris under her clothes and what exactly that was. 217 00:14:05,605 --> 00:14:08,125 Speaker 1: And of course you know, now with forensic testing, who 218 00:14:08,165 --> 00:14:11,085 Speaker 1: knows what could be accomplished, But they lost the evidence. Okay. 219 00:14:11,125 --> 00:14:13,925 Speaker 1: So one of the other big questions that the journalist 220 00:14:13,965 --> 00:14:16,685 Speaker 1: Mike Master said brings up and his column is this 221 00:14:16,845 --> 00:14:20,245 Speaker 1: idea of the ninety missing minutes, And he brings it 222 00:14:20,325 --> 00:14:22,925 Speaker 1: up because there's a police dispatcher named Harold Young who 223 00:14:22,925 --> 00:14:25,485 Speaker 1: said that the truck in the route from the party 224 00:14:25,485 --> 00:14:29,325 Speaker 1: to the bank parking lot did stop at the police station. 225 00:14:30,165 --> 00:14:33,205 Speaker 1: So what have we been able to figure out about this? 226 00:14:33,365 --> 00:14:36,405 Speaker 1: It's very confusing. Well, I think the ninety missing minutes 227 00:14:36,445 --> 00:14:38,685 Speaker 1: is like a classic example of something that was it 228 00:14:38,725 --> 00:14:41,885 Speaker 1: was put out there and it's not necessarily correct because, 229 00:14:42,125 --> 00:14:44,565 Speaker 1: first of all, in a lot of the early reports, 230 00:14:44,605 --> 00:14:47,285 Speaker 1: I saw that the time of the sunset was wrong. 231 00:14:47,965 --> 00:14:50,285 Speaker 1: It was it was described as being around six thirty, 232 00:14:50,285 --> 00:14:52,325 Speaker 1: when in fact it was around seven thirty. And everyone 233 00:14:52,325 --> 00:14:55,085 Speaker 1: at the party basically said that they said when people 234 00:14:55,125 --> 00:14:57,325 Speaker 1: when things started happening, when things started to go wrong, 235 00:14:57,405 --> 00:14:59,445 Speaker 1: when all hell broke loose, it was around dusk, which 236 00:14:59,445 --> 00:15:02,005 Speaker 1: would have been around seven thirty, not six thirty. And 237 00:15:02,285 --> 00:15:06,565 Speaker 1: Harold Young made that statement, but he also said that 238 00:15:06,605 --> 00:15:09,685 Speaker 1: he called the ambulance service, and the two people from 239 00:15:09,685 --> 00:15:12,125 Speaker 1: the ambulance service who were interviewed by the police both 240 00:15:12,165 --> 00:15:14,925 Speaker 1: say they never received that call. So their discrepancies in 241 00:15:14,965 --> 00:15:19,405 Speaker 1: Harold Young's statement. And Ron Kim and Sherry, who were 242 00:15:19,405 --> 00:15:21,365 Speaker 1: all in the truck, they all told police that they 243 00:15:21,405 --> 00:15:26,205 Speaker 1: never stopped anywhere, so they are all their statements match. Now, 244 00:15:26,685 --> 00:15:29,845 Speaker 1: could three people have concocted a story, possibly, I mean, 245 00:15:30,045 --> 00:15:34,165 Speaker 1: but their statements do match. And Harold Young GE's an outlier. 246 00:15:34,245 --> 00:15:36,165 Speaker 1: He really is the outlier in that. And I think 247 00:15:36,205 --> 00:15:37,965 Speaker 1: another thing that we found that was really important is 248 00:15:37,965 --> 00:15:40,765 Speaker 1: that there may have been missing time, but I don't 249 00:15:40,805 --> 00:15:43,445 Speaker 1: believe it was ninety minutes. It wasn't hours. You know, 250 00:15:43,565 --> 00:15:46,845 Speaker 1: it may have been half an hour or longer, but 251 00:15:46,925 --> 00:15:49,405 Speaker 1: it wasn't you know, it doesn't seem that it was 252 00:15:49,485 --> 00:15:51,165 Speaker 1: an hour and a half. I think I do think 253 00:15:51,205 --> 00:15:53,445 Speaker 1: that's six thirty times probably could not have been right, 254 00:15:53,565 --> 00:15:56,365 Speaker 1: just based on what everyone at the party. Everyone else 255 00:15:56,365 --> 00:15:58,885 Speaker 1: at the party said they saw. Okay, So another one 256 00:15:58,925 --> 00:16:01,885 Speaker 1: of the big rumors is that she was hit in 257 00:16:01,925 --> 00:16:04,205 Speaker 1: the face with a baseball bat and killed at the 258 00:16:04,205 --> 00:16:08,485 Speaker 1: party by another Marshall High School student. People would often 259 00:16:08,805 --> 00:16:12,125 Speaker 1: say it was Sarah, who was a popular cheerleader who 260 00:16:12,205 --> 00:16:15,205 Speaker 1: came from prominent family in the town. Her dad was 261 00:16:15,365 --> 00:16:19,045 Speaker 1: the judge. But it seems in our investigation that there's 262 00:16:19,165 --> 00:16:23,285 Speaker 1: very little evidence that supports that theory at all. We've 263 00:16:23,325 --> 00:16:26,005 Speaker 1: really looked into this theory and the possibility this could 264 00:16:26,005 --> 00:16:29,085 Speaker 1: have happened, but we just can't find any evidence to 265 00:16:29,125 --> 00:16:31,205 Speaker 1: point to it. I mean, there are a lot of 266 00:16:31,285 --> 00:16:33,805 Speaker 1: rumors about, you know, something that happened to the party, 267 00:16:33,845 --> 00:16:35,445 Speaker 1: but again, when you go back and look at them, 268 00:16:35,485 --> 00:16:37,605 Speaker 1: You look at the statements, you find the people. It 269 00:16:37,685 --> 00:16:39,805 Speaker 1: turns out that, oh it's just something I heard. And 270 00:16:40,085 --> 00:16:42,565 Speaker 1: usually they didn't even hear it secondhand. Usually it's third 271 00:16:42,565 --> 00:16:45,325 Speaker 1: hand or fourth hand. And you know, were there was 272 00:16:45,365 --> 00:16:47,965 Speaker 1: there some truth to it, Yes, I mean Sarah, I 273 00:16:47,965 --> 00:16:50,285 Speaker 1: think because she was a she was a judge's daughter, 274 00:16:50,565 --> 00:16:54,085 Speaker 1: because she did have a temper. She'd admittedly like assaulted 275 00:16:54,085 --> 00:16:56,125 Speaker 1: a couple of other girls, and she got in a 276 00:16:56,125 --> 00:16:57,925 Speaker 1: fight with a boyfriend slapped him in the face. I mean, 277 00:16:57,925 --> 00:17:01,245 Speaker 1: there's there's she had a temper. And also she told 278 00:17:01,285 --> 00:17:04,005 Speaker 1: the police, she lied to the police about who she'd 279 00:17:04,005 --> 00:17:05,725 Speaker 1: come to the party with, and they were inconsist since 280 00:17:05,725 --> 00:17:08,245 Speaker 1: he's in her story. So I can see where that 281 00:17:08,445 --> 00:17:11,445 Speaker 1: all taken together could lead people to conclude she had 282 00:17:11,445 --> 00:17:13,285 Speaker 1: something to do with it. And also a lot of people, 283 00:17:14,005 --> 00:17:15,605 Speaker 1: you know, they just didn't like her. They didn't like her, 284 00:17:15,605 --> 00:17:18,165 Speaker 1: they didn't like her attitude, and that led them to 285 00:17:18,165 --> 00:17:19,725 Speaker 1: believe that she could have had some role in this. 286 00:17:19,845 --> 00:17:22,845 Speaker 1: But again, like none of the forensic evidence points to that, 287 00:17:23,005 --> 00:17:25,645 Speaker 1: not one person that the party said they saw anything 288 00:17:25,725 --> 00:17:28,485 Speaker 1: like that. The one witness that we did find who 289 00:17:28,565 --> 00:17:31,285 Speaker 1: said she saw Jane's struck with a baseball bat. We've 290 00:17:31,325 --> 00:17:34,285 Speaker 1: talked to her, you know about how problematic her testimony is. 291 00:17:34,325 --> 00:17:38,085 Speaker 1: She's had a couple of different stories, and again, if 292 00:17:38,085 --> 00:17:40,565 Speaker 1: she was struck with a baseball bat, you would see 293 00:17:41,045 --> 00:17:44,205 Speaker 1: much more catastrophic injuries to her face. When I talked 294 00:17:44,245 --> 00:17:47,685 Speaker 1: to the neurosurgeon the first autopsy, one of the biggest 295 00:17:47,685 --> 00:17:49,965 Speaker 1: tragedy was such a simple mistake and something that should 296 00:17:49,965 --> 00:17:52,885 Speaker 1: have been corrected really early. Fami Malick referred to the 297 00:17:52,925 --> 00:17:56,325 Speaker 1: injury as a hyper extension injury rather than a hyperflection injury, 298 00:17:56,685 --> 00:17:59,925 Speaker 1: which you know, they're two completely different things. Then you 299 00:17:59,965 --> 00:18:02,685 Speaker 1: have all this confusion about whether her head snapped forward 300 00:18:02,805 --> 00:18:05,965 Speaker 1: or backward, and that led to, you know, the rumors 301 00:18:05,965 --> 00:18:07,445 Speaker 1: that she was hit in the face with something which 302 00:18:07,445 --> 00:18:09,405 Speaker 1: would have snapped her head backward, and that led to 303 00:18:09,565 --> 00:18:12,085 Speaker 1: you know, who could it have been? And the doctor 304 00:18:12,085 --> 00:18:15,285 Speaker 1: branella autopsy. So I just think you can just really 305 00:18:15,325 --> 00:18:18,725 Speaker 1: see how one little simple thing can just have this 306 00:18:19,005 --> 00:18:21,965 Speaker 1: catastrophic effect on an investigation if it's not caught early 307 00:18:22,045 --> 00:18:24,765 Speaker 1: and not dealt with. So throughout this case, a lot 308 00:18:24,845 --> 00:18:27,485 Speaker 1: of what we've seen is that the wards will say 309 00:18:27,525 --> 00:18:30,165 Speaker 1: one thing and then other people will say something else, 310 00:18:30,405 --> 00:18:33,365 Speaker 1: like you know, they said they saw a clear fracture 311 00:18:33,445 --> 00:18:35,525 Speaker 1: in the X ray when they visited the crime lab, 312 00:18:35,805 --> 00:18:38,165 Speaker 1: but then in the X rays that they got sent 313 00:18:38,245 --> 00:18:43,165 Speaker 1: to them a few weeks later showed the spine blocked out. Also, 314 00:18:43,605 --> 00:18:47,565 Speaker 1: they said that they received death threats, And there's just 315 00:18:47,605 --> 00:18:50,565 Speaker 1: sort of some of these these sorts of things that 316 00:18:51,245 --> 00:18:53,845 Speaker 1: it doesn't see. There's doesn't seem to be any way 317 00:18:54,045 --> 00:18:58,205 Speaker 1: to prove one way or another because it is what 318 00:18:58,325 --> 00:19:02,245 Speaker 1: they saw versus what other people heard and saw. Yeah, 319 00:19:02,285 --> 00:19:04,325 Speaker 1: I think that there are some things that we it's 320 00:19:04,485 --> 00:19:07,205 Speaker 1: very difficult to prove one way the other. Like, for example, 321 00:19:08,245 --> 00:19:10,605 Speaker 1: we can never know what Ron actually saw when he 322 00:19:10,605 --> 00:19:14,445 Speaker 1: saw Janie's body. He described it, but obviously we can't 323 00:19:14,445 --> 00:19:17,685 Speaker 1: know that we weren't there, and we also can't know, 324 00:19:18,085 --> 00:19:20,845 Speaker 1: you know, when Ron Amona saw the X rays and 325 00:19:20,885 --> 00:19:23,245 Speaker 1: they say that the X rays they saw later were different, 326 00:19:23,605 --> 00:19:26,445 Speaker 1: We really have no way of knowing that either. But 327 00:19:26,485 --> 00:19:29,685 Speaker 1: what we can say is that they definitely felt that 328 00:19:29,765 --> 00:19:33,005 Speaker 1: the system was not working, and they felt people weren't 329 00:19:33,045 --> 00:19:35,605 Speaker 1: helping them, and they felt that people in power were 330 00:19:35,605 --> 00:19:39,205 Speaker 1: being treated differently, and they also were afraid and they 331 00:19:39,205 --> 00:19:41,565 Speaker 1: were so afraid that they moved and they put their 332 00:19:41,565 --> 00:19:44,125 Speaker 1: other daughter in a different school and said they were 333 00:19:44,125 --> 00:19:47,445 Speaker 1: getting death threats. So there was definitely they seemed to 334 00:19:47,445 --> 00:19:50,085 Speaker 1: feel that there was an atmosphere of fear in the town. 335 00:19:50,525 --> 00:19:53,045 Speaker 1: When we talked to Richard Walter from the Vedok Society, 336 00:19:53,125 --> 00:19:56,085 Speaker 1: he described a similar environment in Marshall, and a lot 337 00:19:56,085 --> 00:20:00,245 Speaker 1: of other people did too. Several reporters said that people 338 00:20:00,245 --> 00:20:03,205 Speaker 1: weren't cooperative or weren't helping. And then there was another 339 00:20:03,285 --> 00:20:06,205 Speaker 1: journalist we talked to who said they received threats too. 340 00:20:06,365 --> 00:20:09,725 Speaker 1: So it's only it's a few people's word, but we 341 00:20:09,765 --> 00:20:11,645 Speaker 1: can't get inside their head and know their experience. We 342 00:20:11,685 --> 00:20:19,005 Speaker 1: can only report what they said to us. One of 343 00:20:19,045 --> 00:20:22,205 Speaker 1: the most frustrating things we can't know is Janey's full 344 00:20:22,245 --> 00:20:27,125 Speaker 1: toxicology report. Some listeners brought up this theory from the beginning. 345 00:20:27,805 --> 00:20:31,565 Speaker 1: Could Janey have been poisoned by accident? At the party, 346 00:20:32,085 --> 00:20:36,445 Speaker 1: the host Jay made PGA that's pure grain alcohol punch, 347 00:20:37,325 --> 00:20:40,205 Speaker 1: and in it he put orange slices that had been 348 00:20:40,245 --> 00:20:44,405 Speaker 1: soaked overnight in rubbing alcohol. Here's his interview with Bill 349 00:20:44,445 --> 00:20:49,285 Speaker 1: Beach again describing the punch. There's been some discussion about 350 00:20:49,485 --> 00:20:52,565 Speaker 1: the fruit that would put in time. Was there any 351 00:20:53,125 --> 00:20:59,125 Speaker 1: special preparations taken of soaked the fruit for to over 352 00:20:59,205 --> 00:21:03,525 Speaker 1: twenty fires reven alcohol? What was the purpose for that? 353 00:21:03,565 --> 00:21:09,645 Speaker 1: He seemed like a higher content. Danny koorol rode alcohol out, 354 00:21:09,965 --> 00:21:13,405 Speaker 1: pray pulses or over the Very little alcohol and no 355 00:21:13,565 --> 00:21:17,125 Speaker 1: drugs were found in Janie's system. Her blood alcohol level 356 00:21:17,205 --> 00:21:21,165 Speaker 1: was point zero five. That's about one drink, but that's 357 00:21:21,245 --> 00:21:26,885 Speaker 1: ethyl alcohol. Rubbing alcohol is isopropyl alcohol, and in the 358 00:21:26,965 --> 00:21:31,405 Speaker 1: first autopsy, doctor Malick didn't test for it. One of 359 00:21:31,445 --> 00:21:34,205 Speaker 1: the pathologists who reviewed doctor Malik's work in nineteen ninety 360 00:21:34,205 --> 00:21:38,045 Speaker 1: two pointed out that the toxicology screens were limited to cannabis, 361 00:21:38,325 --> 00:21:43,485 Speaker 1: ethyl alcohol, drugs, and lead. Rubbing alcohol poisoning is rare, 362 00:21:44,285 --> 00:21:47,405 Speaker 1: but it can be fatal. According to the National Library 363 00:21:47,445 --> 00:21:51,765 Speaker 1: of Medicines Hazardous Substances Databank, it's acute potency as a 364 00:21:51,845 --> 00:21:55,405 Speaker 1: central nervous depressant is about twice that of ethanol eight 365 00:21:55,485 --> 00:21:58,165 Speaker 1: ounces as a lethal dose, but as little as one 366 00:21:58,285 --> 00:22:02,365 Speaker 1: hundred millilters or just over three ounces can be fatal. 367 00:22:03,925 --> 00:22:05,765 Speaker 1: So I had her producers Gabby and tay or do 368 00:22:05,805 --> 00:22:08,965 Speaker 1: an experiment. We wanted to see how much fruit Janey 369 00:22:08,965 --> 00:22:11,285 Speaker 1: would have had to consume to ingest eight ounces of 370 00:22:11,365 --> 00:22:15,525 Speaker 1: rubbing alcohol. So they follow Jay's recipe and soak the 371 00:22:15,565 --> 00:22:19,045 Speaker 1: fruit for twenty four hours. Okay, so basically what we've 372 00:22:19,165 --> 00:22:21,925 Speaker 1: done is we have three different oranges. We have an 373 00:22:21,965 --> 00:22:24,085 Speaker 1: orange that's cut into pieces of four, we have eight 374 00:22:24,165 --> 00:22:27,405 Speaker 1: pieces smaller pieces, and then we also have one that's peeled. 375 00:22:27,685 --> 00:22:30,925 Speaker 1: With these three oranges cut into different quantities, we're trying 376 00:22:30,925 --> 00:22:33,285 Speaker 1: to see if it's possible for one orange to absorb 377 00:22:33,445 --> 00:22:36,525 Speaker 1: enough rubbing alcohol to be fatal. Basically, can the oranges 378 00:22:36,605 --> 00:22:44,885 Speaker 1: absorb a lethal dosage of rubbing alcohol? That's a lot 379 00:22:45,285 --> 00:22:51,005 Speaker 1: about rubbing alcohol and not very much orange. It's been 380 00:22:51,085 --> 00:22:53,605 Speaker 1: twenty four hours and we take a look at what happened. 381 00:22:53,725 --> 00:22:56,845 Speaker 1: Doesn't look like that much of the rubbing alcohol was 382 00:22:56,885 --> 00:22:59,405 Speaker 1: actually absorbed in them, and that was in our different 383 00:22:59,485 --> 00:23:03,685 Speaker 1: control environments, and it looks like only about three yeah, 384 00:23:03,685 --> 00:23:08,405 Speaker 1: about three ounces was probably absorbed by the fruit pieces. 385 00:23:08,765 --> 00:23:10,885 Speaker 1: We determined that to get to the lethal amount of 386 00:23:10,925 --> 00:23:15,165 Speaker 1: eight ounces, Janie would have had to eat around three oranges. 387 00:23:15,885 --> 00:23:19,605 Speaker 1: That's not impossible to imagine, but that's a lot of oranges, 388 00:23:19,765 --> 00:23:22,365 Speaker 1: especially considering the fact that they smelled so strongly of 389 00:23:22,445 --> 00:23:26,245 Speaker 1: rubby alcohol. But with one hundred millilters, she would only 390 00:23:26,325 --> 00:23:30,205 Speaker 1: have to consume about one orange. In several witness statements, 391 00:23:30,685 --> 00:23:33,845 Speaker 1: partygoers mentioned that Jane was chewing on the pieces of fruit. 392 00:23:34,765 --> 00:23:38,485 Speaker 1: In fact, Ron Rose specifically said she ate a cup 393 00:23:38,525 --> 00:23:41,965 Speaker 1: of the fruit. He said she may have thought that 394 00:23:42,085 --> 00:23:45,165 Speaker 1: this would be weaker than just drinking the punch, and 395 00:23:45,285 --> 00:23:48,805 Speaker 1: in a police report, investigator Bill Beach said that when 396 00:23:48,885 --> 00:23:51,285 Speaker 1: he went up to the cabin that night, he found 397 00:23:51,325 --> 00:23:53,845 Speaker 1: orange piels on either side of where Jane had fallen, 398 00:23:54,845 --> 00:23:58,445 Speaker 1: and though the orange PILs were bagged and logged into evidence, 399 00:23:59,085 --> 00:24:03,525 Speaker 1: they were never tested. In that first autopsy, doctor Malick 400 00:24:03,565 --> 00:24:06,725 Speaker 1: said that Jane had ten ounces of digested food matter 401 00:24:06,805 --> 00:24:11,085 Speaker 1: in her stomach, so Jane was drinking and consuming the 402 00:24:11,165 --> 00:24:15,285 Speaker 1: fruit on a relatively empty stomach. He wrote, though that 403 00:24:15,405 --> 00:24:19,765 Speaker 1: in the stomach tomato particles are encountered, no oranges are noted. 404 00:24:21,085 --> 00:24:24,405 Speaker 1: We reached back out to doctor Grace Duke's, the pathologists 405 00:24:24,405 --> 00:24:26,485 Speaker 1: who had reviewed the three autopsies for us in the 406 00:24:26,565 --> 00:24:30,365 Speaker 1: last episode. First off, we wanted to know if doctor 407 00:24:30,405 --> 00:24:33,285 Speaker 1: Malick could tell the difference between tomatoes and orange particles. 408 00:24:34,125 --> 00:24:36,445 Speaker 1: No one else mentioned tomatoes or a food of any 409 00:24:36,525 --> 00:24:39,605 Speaker 1: kind at the party, And since doctor Malick only did 410 00:24:39,645 --> 00:24:42,885 Speaker 1: a visual inspection of the food particles, could he actually 411 00:24:42,925 --> 00:24:45,925 Speaker 1: tell the difference between tomatoes and oranges that had been 412 00:24:46,005 --> 00:24:48,925 Speaker 1: soaked in the red PGA punch. Sometimes you can tell 413 00:24:48,965 --> 00:24:51,205 Speaker 1: exactly what it is, sometimes you can't tell it all. 414 00:24:51,605 --> 00:24:54,045 Speaker 1: But if she were not chewing well, it'd be fairly 415 00:24:54,125 --> 00:24:57,085 Speaker 1: obvious what was in there, especially if it were a 416 00:24:57,125 --> 00:25:00,045 Speaker 1: mix with just liquid where it could separate out easily. 417 00:25:00,605 --> 00:25:03,045 Speaker 1: If he says that he saw pieces of tomato, I 418 00:25:03,085 --> 00:25:06,605 Speaker 1: would imagine that that would mean something fairly specific to 419 00:25:06,725 --> 00:25:09,165 Speaker 1: a tomato, like either the seeds or a large piece 420 00:25:09,205 --> 00:25:12,245 Speaker 1: of food. In terms of the oranges, it's kind of 421 00:25:12,325 --> 00:25:15,325 Speaker 1: like if you were to again people choose their food 422 00:25:15,365 --> 00:25:17,605 Speaker 1: to varying degrees. It's kind of like if you were 423 00:25:17,645 --> 00:25:19,845 Speaker 1: to put food in a blender and blend it up 424 00:25:19,845 --> 00:25:21,845 Speaker 1: a little bit. If you only blended up a little 425 00:25:21,925 --> 00:25:24,805 Speaker 1: you could definitely still tell that there were orange pieces, 426 00:25:25,605 --> 00:25:28,525 Speaker 1: you know how it has that kind of fibrous look. 427 00:25:29,245 --> 00:25:31,405 Speaker 1: But if it were, you know, if it were chewed 428 00:25:31,445 --> 00:25:33,645 Speaker 1: beyond recognition, or it spent a lot of time in 429 00:25:33,725 --> 00:25:36,325 Speaker 1: her stomach. You would potentially not be able to tell that. 430 00:25:36,805 --> 00:25:40,405 Speaker 1: So the answer is maybe, maybe not. But people frequently 431 00:25:41,165 --> 00:25:44,965 Speaker 1: will report which type of food items they've seen in 432 00:25:45,085 --> 00:25:48,885 Speaker 1: the stomach contents. Doctor Duke's described some of the effects 433 00:25:49,005 --> 00:25:54,045 Speaker 1: of ingesting rubbing alcohol. The thing with rubbing alcohol being 434 00:25:54,405 --> 00:25:57,765 Speaker 1: isoid propyle alcohol rather than ethanol, which is what we 435 00:25:57,885 --> 00:26:00,845 Speaker 1: think of as you know, drinking alcoholic beverages would be 436 00:26:00,885 --> 00:26:07,445 Speaker 1: ethanol isodprople alcohol. The effects of that would essentially be 437 00:26:07,565 --> 00:26:13,045 Speaker 1: the same as ethyl alcohol. There would be the same 438 00:26:13,205 --> 00:26:18,005 Speaker 1: sort of in an inebriated person, you know, impaired balance, 439 00:26:18,085 --> 00:26:24,605 Speaker 1: slurred speech, things like that. The difference is that with 440 00:26:24,845 --> 00:26:29,165 Speaker 1: isopropenol you're going to have more of an intoxicating effect 441 00:26:29,925 --> 00:26:34,085 Speaker 1: than with ethanol. So really the effects you see would 442 00:26:34,125 --> 00:26:37,365 Speaker 1: not be different, they just might be more pronounced in 443 00:26:37,485 --> 00:26:42,845 Speaker 1: someone who's ingested isopropenol. The level of alcohol that is 444 00:26:42,925 --> 00:26:47,285 Speaker 1: fatal in a person varies quite a bit. There are 445 00:26:47,325 --> 00:26:49,685 Speaker 1: some limits that have been set previously as sort of 446 00:26:49,805 --> 00:26:51,885 Speaker 1: the norm, as in, you know, this is a lethal 447 00:26:52,005 --> 00:26:55,645 Speaker 1: level when this is not, but that can vary according 448 00:26:55,685 --> 00:26:59,325 Speaker 1: to tolerance. Most teenagers haven't had enough, you know time 449 00:26:59,445 --> 00:27:02,365 Speaker 1: to build up their tolerance, but it can certainly vary, 450 00:27:03,405 --> 00:27:06,405 Speaker 1: so really the answer is that there's no specific limit. 451 00:27:07,125 --> 00:27:09,885 Speaker 1: With this in mind, Janie could have had even less 452 00:27:09,925 --> 00:27:12,365 Speaker 1: than eight ounces and had enough in her system to 453 00:27:12,445 --> 00:27:16,205 Speaker 1: make her sick. Her mom, Mona, and people who knew 454 00:27:16,245 --> 00:27:19,165 Speaker 1: her so that Jannie wasn't much of a drinker, so 455 00:27:19,325 --> 00:27:24,165 Speaker 1: she most likely had a low tolerance. Isopropyle alcohol has 456 00:27:24,205 --> 00:27:27,725 Speaker 1: a lot of the same symptoms as being drunk, drowsiness, 457 00:27:28,005 --> 00:27:34,045 Speaker 1: slurred speech, stumbling, headache, and vomiting. If someone is over intoxicated, 458 00:27:34,645 --> 00:27:38,285 Speaker 1: their heart beat slows down, their breathing becomes more rapid, 459 00:27:39,045 --> 00:27:43,805 Speaker 1: blood pressure drops. They may have seizures or collapse. They 460 00:27:43,885 --> 00:27:48,005 Speaker 1: may experience pulmonary swelling or inflammation of an excess fluid 461 00:27:48,045 --> 00:27:51,125 Speaker 1: in the lungs. This can make breathing difficult and cause 462 00:27:51,165 --> 00:27:55,445 Speaker 1: oxygen deprivation. If not treated in time, it can cause 463 00:27:55,525 --> 00:28:01,245 Speaker 1: cardiovascular collapse and death. The body rapidly absorbs isopropyle alcohol. 464 00:28:01,885 --> 00:28:04,365 Speaker 1: Symptoms are at their height from thirty minutes to two 465 00:28:04,445 --> 00:28:10,085 Speaker 1: hours after consumption. The bottom line is isoproble alcohol hits 466 00:28:10,205 --> 00:28:14,685 Speaker 1: fast and hard. Doctor Mallet noted in his autopsy that 467 00:28:14,765 --> 00:28:18,005 Speaker 1: there was intense congestion in Jennie's lungs and in her liver. 468 00:28:18,965 --> 00:28:21,525 Speaker 1: I wondered if this could be a symptom of alcohol poisoning. 469 00:28:22,365 --> 00:28:27,205 Speaker 1: So those those autopsy findings are not specific to an 470 00:28:27,365 --> 00:28:31,085 Speaker 1: alcohol poisoning. And when you say alcohol poisoning, that just 471 00:28:31,445 --> 00:28:34,525 Speaker 1: that just means over over intoxication, right to the point 472 00:28:34,565 --> 00:28:37,725 Speaker 1: that it's toxic to your body. But there aren't going 473 00:28:37,805 --> 00:28:44,125 Speaker 1: to be necessarily specific findings associated with it. It's essentially 474 00:28:44,245 --> 00:28:48,925 Speaker 1: a It has a CNS depressant effect, and then if 475 00:28:49,165 --> 00:28:52,925 Speaker 1: one were to keep consuming and consuming and consuming, then 476 00:28:52,965 --> 00:28:57,205 Speaker 1: it would potentially cause general, generalized sort of organ failure. 477 00:28:57,405 --> 00:29:01,645 Speaker 1: But it's primarily based in the CNS depressant effect, meaning 478 00:29:01,845 --> 00:29:07,805 Speaker 1: you know, depressed sensorium, which would eventually contribute to decreased breathing, 479 00:29:08,445 --> 00:29:12,405 Speaker 1: which would potentially progress to death based on what doctor 480 00:29:12,485 --> 00:29:16,005 Speaker 1: Dukes is saying. Just like we've seen before, so many 481 00:29:16,125 --> 00:29:18,925 Speaker 1: of Jane's symptoms are not specific to her particular cause 482 00:29:18,965 --> 00:29:23,445 Speaker 1: of death. But rubbing alcohol poisoning is possible, yes, So 483 00:29:23,805 --> 00:29:25,725 Speaker 1: if it were president at a high enough level, it 484 00:29:25,725 --> 00:29:29,565 Speaker 1: would certainly be a potential cause of death. The issue 485 00:29:29,645 --> 00:29:31,565 Speaker 1: is just that we don't have a level reported if 486 00:29:31,605 --> 00:29:34,085 Speaker 1: it were present at all, Doctor Duke said that if 487 00:29:34,125 --> 00:29:36,965 Speaker 1: it were to the point of being lethal, Janie would 488 00:29:37,005 --> 00:29:41,005 Speaker 1: have been visibly intoxicated. In the witness statements, only a 489 00:29:41,045 --> 00:29:45,325 Speaker 1: few people mentioned that Jane seemed drunk. One was Sarah. 490 00:29:46,365 --> 00:29:49,405 Speaker 1: Sarah said that when Janie called her a snob, Jannie 491 00:29:49,485 --> 00:29:51,885 Speaker 1: was stumbling up to her and warned her not to 492 00:29:51,965 --> 00:29:55,485 Speaker 1: eat the fruit. Ron Rose said that Jane appeared to 493 00:29:55,525 --> 00:29:58,845 Speaker 1: be intoxicated shortly before her death. Jay said the same 494 00:29:58,885 --> 00:30:02,485 Speaker 1: thing in his reenactment video. We may never know for 495 00:30:02,605 --> 00:30:06,325 Speaker 1: sure what killed Janie, but we have to look probability, 496 00:30:07,125 --> 00:30:09,045 Speaker 1: and we found some other pieces of evidence in the 497 00:30:09,085 --> 00:30:15,565 Speaker 1: investigation that do suggest rubbing alcohol poisoning. Lividity or darkening 498 00:30:15,605 --> 00:30:18,285 Speaker 1: of the skin due to blood pooling sets in at 499 00:30:18,325 --> 00:30:21,645 Speaker 1: around two hours after death, but more than one person 500 00:30:21,765 --> 00:30:26,805 Speaker 1: noticed that Janey started turning blue almost immediately. One partygoer 501 00:30:26,925 --> 00:30:31,365 Speaker 1: said she started turning a darker color all over. Then 502 00:30:31,925 --> 00:30:34,205 Speaker 1: one of the ambulance attendants who treated Jane at the 503 00:30:34,245 --> 00:30:37,205 Speaker 1: scene in the bank parking lot made the comment, she 504 00:30:37,365 --> 00:30:40,365 Speaker 1: was not as blue as my genes, but she was 505 00:30:40,445 --> 00:30:45,165 Speaker 1: getting blue, turning blue, especially blue coloring of the lips. 506 00:30:45,485 --> 00:30:49,805 Speaker 1: Or cyanosis is an indicator of oxygen deprivation, which is 507 00:30:49,845 --> 00:30:54,085 Speaker 1: one of the symptoms of rubbing alcohol poisoning. Ron Ward 508 00:30:54,165 --> 00:30:56,445 Speaker 1: said that when he saw Jane in the morgue, she 509 00:30:56,605 --> 00:30:59,965 Speaker 1: had blood around her mouth. Blood in the mouth can 510 00:31:00,045 --> 00:31:03,445 Speaker 1: come from gastric distress, which is yet another symptom of 511 00:31:03,525 --> 00:31:07,445 Speaker 1: isoprobe alcohol poisoning. Another thing was that one of the 512 00:31:07,485 --> 00:31:10,885 Speaker 1: ambulance attendants had smelled a faint perfume on Janie. A 513 00:31:10,965 --> 00:31:14,125 Speaker 1: fruity smell can indicate keytnes in the urine, which is 514 00:31:14,165 --> 00:31:19,165 Speaker 1: again another symptom of alcohol poisoning. As we said, alcohol 515 00:31:19,245 --> 00:31:23,045 Speaker 1: poisoning can also lead to cardiovascular collapse, and in the 516 00:31:23,085 --> 00:31:26,645 Speaker 1: third autopsy, doctor Plus did suggest that Janie could have 517 00:31:26,725 --> 00:31:30,965 Speaker 1: died from a heartarrhythmia. If Janie collapsed from alcohol poisoning, 518 00:31:31,605 --> 00:31:35,125 Speaker 1: her condition might have been exacerbated at the party. She 519 00:31:35,285 --> 00:31:38,565 Speaker 1: was lying on the ground gasping for breath when at 520 00:31:38,645 --> 00:31:42,205 Speaker 1: least one person, in an attempt to revive her, threw 521 00:31:42,285 --> 00:31:45,405 Speaker 1: a cup of beer on her. Another person had mentioned 522 00:31:45,445 --> 00:31:48,765 Speaker 1: a cup of water also being thrown on her. This 523 00:31:48,925 --> 00:31:51,445 Speaker 1: could explain the fluid in her lungs that doctor Malick 524 00:31:51,445 --> 00:31:54,285 Speaker 1: had noted in the first autopsy. So if Jannie was 525 00:31:54,365 --> 00:31:58,725 Speaker 1: already suffering from over intoxication and central nervous depression, she 526 00:31:58,805 --> 00:32:01,205 Speaker 1: wouldn't have been able to expel this fluid from her lungs, 527 00:32:01,845 --> 00:32:05,925 Speaker 1: an she might have experienced some symptoms of drowning. One 528 00:32:06,045 --> 00:32:08,285 Speaker 1: is that your throat closes up to prevent any more 529 00:32:08,365 --> 00:32:11,405 Speaker 1: fluid entering the lungs, and when your throat closes up, 530 00:32:11,725 --> 00:32:14,885 Speaker 1: that can cause hemorrhaging, which was noted in the third autopsy. 531 00:32:16,085 --> 00:32:19,925 Speaker 1: It's possible that at that point she blacked out. I 532 00:32:20,085 --> 00:32:23,805 Speaker 1: hope so, because the alternative is that she was on 533 00:32:23,925 --> 00:32:27,925 Speaker 1: the ground, helpless, paralyzed, and unable to ask for help 534 00:32:28,685 --> 00:32:31,685 Speaker 1: while everyone continued to party around her and pour beer 535 00:32:31,765 --> 00:32:37,885 Speaker 1: down her throat she lay dying. We'll be right back. 536 00:32:40,005 --> 00:32:42,725 Speaker 1: The reason I'm an investigator is because I want to 537 00:32:42,805 --> 00:32:47,805 Speaker 1: answer family's questions. But in Janie's case, I can't definitively 538 00:32:47,885 --> 00:32:51,725 Speaker 1: answer the big question of how she died. Remember Parents 539 00:32:51,765 --> 00:32:55,365 Speaker 1: of Murdered Children. That's the organization where the Wards found 540 00:32:55,405 --> 00:32:59,245 Speaker 1: doctor Burnell and the v doc's Richard Walter. When we 541 00:32:59,365 --> 00:33:03,005 Speaker 1: talked with their executive director, Bev Warnock. We also spoke 542 00:33:03,045 --> 00:33:07,285 Speaker 1: with their volunteer coordinator Sherry Nolan. She became involved with 543 00:33:07,365 --> 00:33:11,165 Speaker 1: the organization when her daughter, who was pregnant, was killed. 544 00:33:12,565 --> 00:33:14,365 Speaker 1: I was talking about and one of my goals as 545 00:33:14,405 --> 00:33:18,485 Speaker 1: an investigator is to help families. But when I mentioned closure, 546 00:33:19,365 --> 00:33:23,285 Speaker 1: she told us that isn't something we or anyone can 547 00:33:23,365 --> 00:33:26,005 Speaker 1: provide for a family. Well, we make sure we don't 548 00:33:26,085 --> 00:33:28,685 Speaker 1: use the word closure. No one likes to hear the 549 00:33:28,725 --> 00:33:31,645 Speaker 1: word closure. We hit someone here that used to say, 550 00:33:31,925 --> 00:33:34,045 Speaker 1: the only thing that closes is the list of the coffin. 551 00:33:34,805 --> 00:33:37,765 Speaker 1: The grief is so devastating to them. You know, it's 552 00:33:37,805 --> 00:33:40,365 Speaker 1: not just have the funeral and then you try to recover. 553 00:33:40,525 --> 00:33:43,125 Speaker 1: They have to go into the justice system, and then 554 00:33:43,205 --> 00:33:46,045 Speaker 1: years later the pearl block system. So it never ends 555 00:33:46,085 --> 00:33:48,645 Speaker 1: for them. It never you know, and it's not something 556 00:33:48,725 --> 00:33:53,005 Speaker 1: you can you know, after a couple Montiers, you know, 557 00:33:53,125 --> 00:33:55,525 Speaker 1: you can kind of feel like you're moving on because 558 00:33:55,685 --> 00:33:58,085 Speaker 1: you can't. You know, your mind is just consumed with 559 00:33:58,965 --> 00:34:02,045 Speaker 1: guilt that you didn't say they loved them before they least, 560 00:34:02,245 --> 00:34:04,285 Speaker 1: or you know, any other kind of guilt. There might 561 00:34:04,365 --> 00:34:07,765 Speaker 1: be a lot of survivors. The healing process is to 562 00:34:07,885 --> 00:34:10,325 Speaker 1: talk about it and to be with other families is 563 00:34:10,405 --> 00:34:12,445 Speaker 1: to be able to talk to them because they understand 564 00:34:12,525 --> 00:34:14,885 Speaker 1: no one else would understand. But we also make it 565 00:34:15,005 --> 00:34:17,445 Speaker 1: very clear that we understand the grief and the pain, 566 00:34:17,565 --> 00:34:20,685 Speaker 1: but we don't understand individually their grief and their pain, 567 00:34:21,245 --> 00:34:23,925 Speaker 1: because no one knows exactly how I feel. It was 568 00:34:24,005 --> 00:34:27,005 Speaker 1: my daughter, my granddaughter, But I understand the pain and 569 00:34:27,045 --> 00:34:30,285 Speaker 1: grief that we all go through, and I never you know, 570 00:34:30,525 --> 00:34:33,125 Speaker 1: a lot of questions that survivors ask is when does 571 00:34:33,165 --> 00:34:35,885 Speaker 1: it get better when you get over it. I think 572 00:34:36,045 --> 00:34:38,685 Speaker 1: that they answer that because other people say it, and 573 00:34:38,885 --> 00:34:41,085 Speaker 1: so I always say, it's not that it gets better, 574 00:34:41,125 --> 00:34:44,525 Speaker 1: it's just that it's different. Never say that they'll be healed. 575 00:34:44,765 --> 00:34:48,205 Speaker 1: It's a healing process that will never ask never tell 576 00:34:48,285 --> 00:34:50,205 Speaker 1: them that they'll be over it at any point in time, 577 00:34:50,245 --> 00:34:53,965 Speaker 1: because that grief's journey is a journey that you'll always 578 00:34:54,005 --> 00:34:57,765 Speaker 1: be on. At the beginning of this investigation, I thought 579 00:34:57,805 --> 00:35:00,485 Speaker 1: that people might be more forthcoming because so much time 580 00:35:00,565 --> 00:35:04,325 Speaker 1: is passed. I also thought more people would come forward 581 00:35:04,405 --> 00:35:07,445 Speaker 1: with renewed pressure on the case. But the thing is 582 00:35:08,165 --> 00:35:10,525 Speaker 1: they might have already come forward with everything they know, 583 00:35:11,565 --> 00:35:14,165 Speaker 1: and over the years there has been a lot of 584 00:35:14,205 --> 00:35:17,325 Speaker 1: pressure on the case. It was reopened in two thousand 585 00:35:17,325 --> 00:35:21,165 Speaker 1: and four, reinvestigated, and was a high profile case in 586 00:35:21,205 --> 00:35:24,205 Speaker 1: the state of Arkansas. I wondered if anything could have 587 00:35:24,285 --> 00:35:27,645 Speaker 1: been done for her at the party, could she have survived? 588 00:35:28,645 --> 00:35:33,045 Speaker 1: I asked ABC's FBI consultant Brad Garrett about this in 589 00:35:33,125 --> 00:35:35,285 Speaker 1: all the stories, I mean, do you think that there's 590 00:35:35,285 --> 00:35:38,205 Speaker 1: anything that they could have done more to help her? Well, 591 00:35:38,965 --> 00:35:42,685 Speaker 1: you know, when you talk about people helping other people, 592 00:35:42,845 --> 00:35:45,085 Speaker 1: you have to get to look at it in context. 593 00:35:45,685 --> 00:35:47,485 Speaker 1: Where are you. You're sort of in the middle of 594 00:35:47,605 --> 00:35:51,205 Speaker 1: nowhere in Arkansas, which means, you know, the luxury of 595 00:35:52,485 --> 00:35:55,245 Speaker 1: where you all are, Like I'm in Washington, d C. 596 00:35:55,805 --> 00:35:58,285 Speaker 1: If you started to choke on something, you could probably 597 00:35:58,325 --> 00:36:01,565 Speaker 1: get an ambulance and or the fire department to your 598 00:36:01,605 --> 00:36:04,405 Speaker 1: house in five or six minutes. Probably not realistic. In 599 00:36:04,845 --> 00:36:08,285 Speaker 1: martiall arc and they did in my view, and you 600 00:36:08,325 --> 00:36:10,725 Speaker 1: know other could they have done something at the scene? 601 00:36:11,565 --> 00:36:15,765 Speaker 1: Maybe maybe not. I mean, if you believe that in 602 00:36:15,885 --> 00:36:20,005 Speaker 1: affect Janie choked to death. If you believe that that, 603 00:36:20,725 --> 00:36:23,045 Speaker 1: I'm not sure what they could have done unless there 604 00:36:23,085 --> 00:36:26,325 Speaker 1: happened to be a paramedic or an EMT. But you're 605 00:36:26,325 --> 00:36:28,165 Speaker 1: talking a bunch of high school kids. So the odds 606 00:36:28,205 --> 00:36:31,045 Speaker 1: of that weren't great. And so they did really what 607 00:36:31,485 --> 00:36:33,805 Speaker 1: I would think is the next best thing. They didn't 608 00:36:33,845 --> 00:36:37,005 Speaker 1: wait for emergency services to come to them, if in 609 00:36:37,045 --> 00:36:39,485 Speaker 1: fact they even exist. They put them in the back 610 00:36:39,485 --> 00:36:42,445 Speaker 1: of a pickup truck. Now, it was sort of unclear 611 00:36:42,885 --> 00:36:46,205 Speaker 1: about how much of a lag there was between when 612 00:36:46,245 --> 00:36:49,885 Speaker 1: she went down off the porch of this cabin and 613 00:36:50,005 --> 00:36:52,205 Speaker 1: when she was actually taken. You know, I got different 614 00:36:52,525 --> 00:36:56,045 Speaker 1: time periods. But at some point they said, we've got 615 00:36:56,085 --> 00:36:59,205 Speaker 1: to get her to a doctor or to somebody that 616 00:36:59,525 --> 00:37:07,845 Speaker 1: can take a look at her. So what ultimately is 617 00:37:07,925 --> 00:37:12,925 Speaker 1: Jane's story. Janey's story is a tragedy. It's a story 618 00:37:12,965 --> 00:37:16,125 Speaker 1: about a town where there was enough distrust between some 619 00:37:16,245 --> 00:37:19,565 Speaker 1: of its citizens and the authorities that wild rumors could 620 00:37:19,565 --> 00:37:22,845 Speaker 1: be believed. It's also a tragedy that a lot of 621 00:37:22,885 --> 00:37:25,845 Speaker 1: the people in Marshall, Arkansas are tired of hearing about. 622 00:37:27,045 --> 00:37:30,005 Speaker 1: And it's a story about a family who never got answers. 623 00:37:32,805 --> 00:37:36,365 Speaker 1: Jane died in nineteen eighty nine at the age of sixteen, 624 00:37:37,405 --> 00:37:41,605 Speaker 1: and her father, Ron Ward, spent thirty years investigating his 625 00:37:41,725 --> 00:37:44,925 Speaker 1: daughter's death, which was almost twice as long as she 626 00:37:45,085 --> 00:37:49,685 Speaker 1: was alive. Ron is gone now as well, and I 627 00:37:49,765 --> 00:37:53,765 Speaker 1: can't help but admire him. He wanted the truth, He 628 00:37:53,885 --> 00:37:56,685 Speaker 1: wanted to live in a world that had answers and justice. 629 00:37:57,725 --> 00:38:01,925 Speaker 1: He wanted his daughter back. Throughout this season, people have 630 00:38:02,045 --> 00:38:08,365 Speaker 1: continued to reach out to us about unsolved cases. Parents, siblings, friends, spouses. 631 00:38:09,205 --> 00:38:11,525 Speaker 1: They are all desperately trying to find out what happened 632 00:38:11,565 --> 00:38:14,725 Speaker 1: to their loved ones. I think about season one and 633 00:38:14,765 --> 00:38:18,685 Speaker 1: Rebecca Gould's father and sister, Larry and Danielle, who were 634 00:38:18,765 --> 00:38:24,765 Speaker 1: still trying to get justice for her. I've learned a 635 00:38:24,845 --> 00:38:27,725 Speaker 1: lot from ren Ward. He shows us that you can 636 00:38:27,765 --> 00:38:30,325 Speaker 1: go a long way if you don't give up. You 637 00:38:30,365 --> 00:38:34,285 Speaker 1: can get a case reinvestigated, a special prosecutor appointed, and 638 00:38:34,405 --> 00:38:38,725 Speaker 1: even another autopsy conducted. You can also get the information 639 00:38:39,165 --> 00:38:41,845 Speaker 1: made public so that other people can come in and 640 00:38:41,965 --> 00:38:45,845 Speaker 1: try to get answers. I've learned the importance of never 641 00:38:45,965 --> 00:38:49,045 Speaker 1: losing faith in the fact that one person can make 642 00:38:49,045 --> 00:38:54,285 Speaker 1: a difference. With enough pressure and time, anything can happen. 643 00:38:55,005 --> 00:38:56,565 Speaker 1: It's a lesson that I'm taking to heart as I 644 00:38:56,645 --> 00:39:00,965 Speaker 1: continue to investigate Rebecca Gould's murder. At the beginning of 645 00:39:01,005 --> 00:39:04,565 Speaker 1: the season we talked about time travel. On that fateful 646 00:39:04,645 --> 00:39:07,765 Speaker 1: night in nineteen eight eighty nine, many of the partygoers 647 00:39:07,885 --> 00:39:12,125 Speaker 1: were teens themselves. Thirty years later, a lot of those 648 00:39:12,245 --> 00:39:16,085 Speaker 1: kids are adults with kids of their own. A lot 649 00:39:16,165 --> 00:39:18,165 Speaker 1: of them have teens who are the same age as 650 00:39:18,205 --> 00:39:23,245 Speaker 1: they were when Jane died, and right now those teens 651 00:39:23,365 --> 00:39:26,005 Speaker 1: might be heading out to parties and cabins in the woods. 652 00:39:27,325 --> 00:39:40,325 Speaker 1: I'm Katherine Townsend and this is Helen Gone. Helen Gone 653 00:39:40,485 --> 00:39:44,005 Speaker 1: is a joint production between School of Humans and iHeartRadio. 654 00:39:44,805 --> 00:39:48,485 Speaker 1: It is written and recorded by me. Catherine Townsend. Taylor 655 00:39:48,605 --> 00:39:51,885 Speaker 1: Church and Gabby Watts are our producers and story editors. 656 00:39:52,685 --> 00:39:56,405 Speaker 1: Executive producers are Brandon Barr, Brian Lavin, and el C. 657 00:39:56,565 --> 00:39:59,685 Speaker 1: Crowley for School of Humans and Connell Byrne and Chuck 658 00:39:59,765 --> 00:40:04,685 Speaker 1: Bryant for iHeart. Our Field producer is Miranda Hawkins. Theme 659 00:40:04,725 --> 00:40:08,485 Speaker 1: and original school are by Ben Sale, available wherever you 660 00:40:08,565 --> 00:40:12,285 Speaker 1: get your music. Please visit us at Helegoon podcast dot 661 00:40:12,405 --> 00:40:23,765 Speaker 1: com or follow us on social media. School of Humans