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Speaker 1: Welken to trillions. I'm Joel Weber and I am Eric

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Speaker 1: bel Tunis. Eric. I realized recently that, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: I've lost sense of time. No no sense of time anymore.

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Speaker 1: But we're basically halfway through the year and it's been

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Speaker 1: a weird year. It felt appropriate that we should do

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Speaker 1: a halftime report. Yeah, I mean, so much has happened.

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Speaker 1: I I almost feel like time has slowed down, like

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Speaker 1: like two or three years has been stuffed into six months.

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Speaker 1: Even the sell off people were saying that it was

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Speaker 1: like two thousand eight squeezed into six weeks. And I

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Speaker 1: think the recovery was, like, you know, the same deal.

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Speaker 1: Everything just seems to be so condensed, and with the

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Speaker 1: lockdown throw on top of that, I think everybody's very disoriented.

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Speaker 1: But um, certainly this first half was a lot of

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Speaker 1: et F storylines have have developed a lot to chew on,

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Speaker 1: so helpe less make sense of what's been going on.

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Speaker 1: We figured we'd lean into Bloomberg Intelligence and your analysts, Eric,

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Speaker 1: So we've got your team who's basically had some observations

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Speaker 1: both for the first half and then kind of looking

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Speaker 1: ahead for the second half. So who's all joining us?

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Speaker 1: So we have from London or I think he might

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Speaker 1: be in Greece already, but uh, Athanacio, Sarah Fagus otherwise

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Speaker 1: known as Tom Um, James Seffert, who is in Summit,

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Speaker 1: New Jersey, and Morgan Barner who is in d C

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Speaker 1: but was just in California. We're all over the place,

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Speaker 1: but you know we are constantly in Twitter, d m

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Speaker 1: s and I v s talking about these issues all

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Speaker 1: the time. So basically I asked the Meats to bring

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Speaker 1: the big issue they've thought was the big deal from

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Speaker 1: the first half, and also maybe something to watching in

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Speaker 1: the second half. So um, there's gonna be a lot

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Speaker 1: to chew on today just for people listening. You know,

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Speaker 1: we have all four of us, and there's some vacations

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Speaker 1: and whatnots coming up. So we recorded this right in

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Speaker 1: the middle of June, so we're gonna go over some numbers.

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Speaker 1: They could be a touch stale, but I think directionally

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Speaker 1: think it's going to be exactly the same this time.

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Speaker 1: On Trillions the E t F halftime Report, Morgan, Tom James,

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Speaker 1: welcome to Trillions again. Hey guys, good to see you

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Speaker 1: guys in this zoom. Uh this is my closet, don't

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Speaker 1: you guys think it has a blared witch vibe in there.

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Speaker 1: I do, because all you see is the late kind

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Speaker 1: of like kind of up in his face, and he's

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Speaker 1: just looks like he is scared and like hiding from

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Speaker 1: something Like it's just feel like a horror movie going on.

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Speaker 1: If you see me looking into the corner, please please

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Speaker 1: call for help. Um okay, James, I want to start

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Speaker 1: with you first half. What do you want to talk about?

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Speaker 1: What was your big takeaway? I mean, the big takeaway

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Speaker 1: is the FED jumping into the e t F market

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Speaker 1: and buying ets. So they basically stepped in and said

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Speaker 1: they were going to be buying fixed income e T

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Speaker 1: s UM. We call it kitchen sinc Day in Marche. Basically,

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Speaker 1: jerol Al just said he was going to be buying

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Speaker 1: things left and right. U and E T s were

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Speaker 1: added to that description. As of June tenth, we know

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Speaker 1: that they have somewhere around five point three billion in

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Speaker 1: ETS and we are five point five billion in e

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Speaker 1: t F s UM. They're all fixed income, mostly investment grade,

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Speaker 1: but there's some high yield ets in there, and we're

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Speaker 1: also obviously watching to see which ets are specifically buying

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Speaker 1: and they're going to re release that report um on

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Speaker 1: a monthly basis, so we have the most recent data

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Speaker 1: as of May nine. We won't know exactly when the

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Speaker 1: June report will come out, but that they tell us

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Speaker 1: basically everything you could ever want to know with what

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Speaker 1: the FED is doing in the e t F market.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people when they hear the FITS buying

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Speaker 1: e t F they think, oh, are we Japan now?

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Speaker 1: The Bank of Japan of the e t F sets

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Speaker 1: there just for perspective, that five billion would be point

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Speaker 1: three percent of all e t f s, but it

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Speaker 1: is two percent of corporate bondy tfs, and it's about

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Speaker 1: ten percent of all the flows into corporate bondyts this year.

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Speaker 1: So in that niche, the FED is becoming a bigger player.

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Speaker 1: And I think if you looked at the top ten

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Speaker 1: holdings of like an l q D or h y G,

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Speaker 1: the FED would be on the cusp. It might be,

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Speaker 1: you know, flirting with the top ten holder of these

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Speaker 1: funds already and there's still you know, some time to go.

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Speaker 1: So one of the observation I had about what James

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Speaker 1: is talking about is the portfolio that the e t

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Speaker 1: F s the FED uses was really advanced, in my opinion. Normally,

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Speaker 1: when an institution like a Yale or a I don't know,

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Speaker 1: New Jersey pension uses e t F, they use like

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Speaker 1: one or two liquid ones, you know, for liquidity purposes.

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Speaker 1: They're afraid to swim away from those big liquid ones.

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Speaker 1: And the FED had what thirteen to fifteen e t

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Speaker 1: F some most people would never heard of, probably half

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Speaker 1: the list, And I think that really speaks to black

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Speaker 1: Rock holding their hand. I mean, they are definitely working

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Speaker 1: with someone who knows e t F and so their

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Speaker 1: portfolio to me looks a lot more like an e

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Speaker 1: t F strategist than it does like an institution. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and the other thing to highlight here is, as I mentioned,

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Speaker 1: they're given there being very transparent here, Like we knew

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Speaker 1: they were going to be so much transparent, but when

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Speaker 1: they released this report at the end of the month

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Speaker 1: of May, we're at that. Maybe they were vocal about this,

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Speaker 1: but I didn't think they were going to be as

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Speaker 1: transparent as they are. We can see the trade level data,

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Speaker 1: what time they bought, these e t F s, who

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Speaker 1: bought it, all these different things, so they're telling you

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Speaker 1: everything that happened, and it's you're looking back and it's

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Speaker 1: not live, but you can see exactly what they're doing

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Speaker 1: in the marketplace when it's happened, after it's happened. Okay, Eric,

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Speaker 1: You've got a couple of topics from first half that

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Speaker 1: I think we we've talked about a couple of times,

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Speaker 1: but I just feel like it is the zeitgeist of

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Speaker 1: the of the year so far. Do you want to

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Speaker 1: talk about them? Yeah, I think I'm becoming associated with

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Speaker 1: the E t F jets at this point. Um, I've

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Speaker 1: been obsessed, even addicted, but I admitted, so at least

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Speaker 1: there's that, um that you have a problem. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: do have a problem. Um, this E t F Jets.

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Speaker 1: It's just really I don't know if it's lack of sports,

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Speaker 1: but it's really just captured my attention at big time

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Speaker 1: because you know, when we look at flows into Vanguard

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Speaker 1: and black Rock, it's you know, they take the hoover

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Speaker 1: and money like giant vacuum cleaners. So anytime a small

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Speaker 1: E t F is able to just sort of go

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Speaker 1: from obscurity into the big time within a couple of

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Speaker 1: weeks or months, it's fascinating. It's it's a rare and

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Speaker 1: in Jets's case. Let me give you the numbers here. Um.

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Speaker 1: What stuck out to me was the flow streak. It

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Speaker 1: took in money seventy straight days before finally seeing an outflow.

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Speaker 1: Seventy days of straight inflows is absurd, especially for an

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Speaker 1: e t F that had thirty million dollars at the

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Speaker 1: beginning of it. I looked at the longest streaks of

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Speaker 1: inflows of all e t f s, and Jets would

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Speaker 1: write number three at seventy days to Vanguard B and

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Speaker 1: d X and v W. Oh, we're number one and

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Speaker 1: two with eighty five and eighty three days. But the

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Speaker 1: whole top ten was Vanguard except for Jets. That is

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Speaker 1: how unusual it is. UM. I also think it's interesting

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Speaker 1: that Jets was so bought up after being so bad. Normally,

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Speaker 1: when you see retail sort of pile into a theme

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Speaker 1: et F, it's because it's having its shiny object moment,

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Speaker 1: it's having a good performance run. This was the opposite.

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Speaker 1: This was people buying something beat up. I mean, the

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Speaker 1: evaluation on the airline stocks was really low. It also

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Speaker 1: speaks to this whole robin Hood situation that everybody's obsessed

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Speaker 1: with robin Hood being like the face of the day

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Speaker 1: trading retail investor who's board at home with no sports,

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Speaker 1: and I think there's a case we made. Although you know,

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Speaker 1: Morgan ran the numbers and they don't have a lot

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Speaker 1: of assets. If you look at Jets, we would estimate

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Speaker 1: maybe five to seven percent of Jets is robin Hood,

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Speaker 1: but they represent other people on other platforms, so you

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Speaker 1: have a bigger robin Hood effect. And that's definitely bigger

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Speaker 1: than that seven percent, so they're definitely buying it. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's retail because of how small the trades and the

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Speaker 1: flows are UM. And then this retail thing is interesting

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Speaker 1: because it basically puts all these small investors on the

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Speaker 1: opposite side of a Buffet trade. You know, Buffet sold

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Speaker 1: his airline stocks on early May. Since then Jets is

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Speaker 1: up up big. As of today, it's about thirty since

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Speaker 1: he sold UM, but it had a rough week last week,

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Speaker 1: so we'll see where this goes. I also think this

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Speaker 1: brings into the fact that Dave Portnoy from Barstool Sports

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Speaker 1: has been really into the airlines, and we looked he

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Speaker 1: put out this sort of hype video that was to

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Speaker 1: an a C d C song. Since that video came

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Speaker 1: out Jets. His volume quadrupled and hasn't looked back. So

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Speaker 1: I do think with Robin Hood Dave Portnoy, there's there's Jets,

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Speaker 1: sits in the middle of a bunch of major trends

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Speaker 1: right now. So it's it's bigger than just this little

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Speaker 1: engine that could them E t F. It's really to

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Speaker 1: me a huge story and as well a proxy for

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Speaker 1: how fast the economy opens up. A lot of these

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Speaker 1: smaller traders are betting against the expert class and saying no,

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Speaker 1: people are going to start flying and moving around faster

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Speaker 1: than you're telling us. And so again there's so much

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Speaker 1: at stake here and it's just totterally fascinating. Okay, Morgan,

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Speaker 1: you're next on my list. First half big story, what

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Speaker 1: was yours? Yeah, not to be confused with jets, but

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Speaker 1: we cover the launch of a new E t F

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Speaker 1: bets b e t Z, which is a round hill

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Speaker 1: sports betting and I gaming e t F. This actually

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Speaker 1: was a launch that we predicted on trillions back in

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Speaker 1: I think last not we congratulations. I was hoping that

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Speaker 1: we would see a sports betting et F, in part

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Speaker 1: because a lot of these companies haven't been public. We

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Speaker 1: just saw DraftKings enter the public markets, Flutter Entertainment owned

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Speaker 1: fan duels. So there's now finally enough sort of global

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Speaker 1: exposure in the public market public markets to see and

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Speaker 1: benefit from UM the legalization of sports betting in the US.

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Speaker 1: A lot of this is going to be mobile driven,

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Speaker 1: tech forward. But launched the et F was really historic

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Speaker 1: in and of itself, just given the volume that it

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Speaker 1: traded in the first couple of days after launching, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it was pre remarkable. Seventeen million trading, seventeen million the

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Speaker 1: first day, I think, fifty million second day. I mean,

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Speaker 1: just kind of a huge launch. And you know, hearkening

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Speaker 1: to what Eric just said, a lot of that breadth

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Speaker 1: in traded volume think came from, you know, the fact

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Speaker 1: that the fund you know, in in around a week

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Speaker 1: of training, has over eighteen thousand holders on robin hood,

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Speaker 1: which is just pretty remarkable but not shocking when you

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Speaker 1: look at UM. The highest held names in robin hood

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Speaker 1: include you know, some of bets is top holdings like

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Speaker 1: DraftKings and pen So this is already an audience on

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Speaker 1: robin Hood that is interested and familiar with UH sports

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Speaker 1: betting companies and names. They may even some some may

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Speaker 1: even say they're betting on stocks as well. So this

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Speaker 1: is a really good audience for the for the e

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Speaker 1: t F BETS and the way the ETF is designed,

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Speaker 1: I mean we're seeing give you know, it's harder to

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Speaker 1: bet on individual names. The way the e t F

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Speaker 1: is set up, it's sort of dynamically rebounces, got more

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Speaker 1: global names that some US investors may not be familiar with.

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Speaker 1: So the fact the fact that the e t F

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Speaker 1: has already taken in seventy million also connects with just

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Speaker 1: the up tips we've seen in thematic fund flows, i

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Speaker 1: mean eight percent over last year. So thematic products overall

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Speaker 1: our seeing traction and BETS echoes back and to bring

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Speaker 1: this to a bigger perspective here also the distribution. You know,

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Speaker 1: if you're going to launch an e t F right now,

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Speaker 1: you kind of have to peel to this. Like older

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Speaker 1: advisor with who has a lot of rich clients, you know,

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Speaker 1: they're not going to buy an e t F on

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Speaker 1: day one. They tend to stay away from theme ETFs

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Speaker 1: for the most part. They don't like new ones with

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Speaker 1: low volume. It's interesting how BETS was able to bypass

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Speaker 1: that advisor and go right to the do it yourself

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Speaker 1: smaller retail investor, and that might be a growing channel

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Speaker 1: of for issuers to just go right there. Um. We also,

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Speaker 1: I Morgan sent me on a TikTok rabbit hole and

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Speaker 1: I looked up E t F and bets. Even though

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Speaker 1: it just came out, there was two TikTok videos from

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Speaker 1: people on there. So I think it's also this interesting

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Speaker 1: look at younger investors who's seemingly doing their own research

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Speaker 1: and you know, are willing to buy an e t

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Speaker 1: F that's new and from an unknown, relatively unknown issue

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Speaker 1: where it's interesting. Well, that speaks to the moment just

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Speaker 1: going direct to consumer during the middle of the pandemic.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's sort of cut out, cut out all

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Speaker 1: the middleman, and just go straight to your people. I

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Speaker 1: also think there's a bigger story of play here as well,

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Speaker 1: because I have a lot of friends I'm in my

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Speaker 1: late twenties who like to bet on sports and stuff

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Speaker 1: like that, and they have a lot of them have

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Speaker 1: picked up trading on robin Hood. As we kind of

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Speaker 1: talked about, there's a lot of people in robin Hood

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Speaker 1: and I've had friends who've never talked to about investing

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Speaker 1: who reached out to me about this specific e t

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Speaker 1: F or gaming e t F video gaming ets specifically

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Speaker 1: and things like that. So there's definitely a lot of

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Speaker 1: interest coming from as you mentioned, possibly the Barstool Sports

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Speaker 1: founder Portnoy, a few different things, um, where people are

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Speaker 1: very interested in this specific et F and getting more

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Speaker 1: into trading. Sarah Fagus, You're in You're in London still,

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Speaker 1: although it looks like Greece. Tell us about your big

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Speaker 1: story from the first half. Yeah, sure, um, And if

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Speaker 1: I could just add something really quick from the European

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Speaker 1: perspective on the thematic stuff, I promise I won't say

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Speaker 1: you SIT's, but um, if the thematic stuff is really

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Speaker 1: interesting in Europe because it's attracting a lot of retail

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Speaker 1: investors too. It's very much an institutional market here and

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Speaker 1: actually you're seeing a lot of buying on some of

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Speaker 1: these thematic ets, so you're actually seeing a new sort

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Speaker 1: of class of investors coming into the market through thematics.

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Speaker 1: But that's not what I wanted to talk about, and

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Speaker 1: what I want to look at is active, non transparent ets.

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Speaker 1: And normally this probably would have been like one of

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Speaker 1: the biggest stories of the year, like leading up in

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Speaker 1: the beginning of the year, but just given what happened

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Speaker 1: in the market, this sort of kind of got put

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Speaker 1: to the to the back burner. But there was a

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Speaker 1: couple of ets that launched UH right after the sell

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Speaker 1: off in March, and now we're that was by American Century.

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Speaker 1: Now we're seeing more firm sort of joined in fidelity,

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Speaker 1: like Mason Um. And so I think there's two things

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Speaker 1: that's interesting about this is one of the timing of

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Speaker 1: it UM. They sort of avoided some of the big

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Speaker 1: down draft in March, so their performance out of the

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Speaker 1: gate is really good. The the American Century Growth Fund

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Speaker 1: is already up thirty percent UM since it launched, so

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Speaker 1: it's really imperative for them to have good performance out

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Speaker 1: of the gate. UH. And because I think there's gonna

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Speaker 1: be a lot of scrutiny on these products. They really

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Speaker 1: have to show that, Okay, you went through all this

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Speaker 1: effort to hide your holdings and do all this. Now

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Speaker 1: you actually have to show that there's value to the structure, right.

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Speaker 1: So I think there's gonna be a lot of pressure

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Speaker 1: on these products to perform really well, and they're off

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Speaker 1: actually to a pretty good start. But I actually think

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Speaker 1: what's happening. So not only against the going up against

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Speaker 1: regular ETFs, they're going against active ETFs that are fully transparent,

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Speaker 1: like cathy Woods funds right here, and they're actually doing

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Speaker 1: really well. Little Kathy at one point had the best

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Speaker 1: performing ETF out there. And so now I actually think

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Speaker 1: that presents a problem for these active, non transparent funds

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Speaker 1: because they're you're looking at a fully transparent ETF out

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Speaker 1: there that's doing really well. It's almost like, well, why

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Speaker 1: do I need to hide my holdings. You're having one

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Speaker 1: that's that's doing really well. So I think that if

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Speaker 1: Cathy's funds continue to do really well, so I think

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Speaker 1: it's gonna provide it's gonna be a headwind for some

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Speaker 1: of these funds. But um, I think we're going to

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Speaker 1: see more and more now with the market sort of

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Speaker 1: stable coming into the market. So it's definitely gonna be

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Speaker 1: something that we've watch and I'll continue to watch. And

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Speaker 1: you know, I think they're stuck in the dead zone.

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Speaker 1: I think you've seen them come out between forty five

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Speaker 1: and sixty five basis points as a fee, and I

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Speaker 1: don't doesn't look like any of them are taking big swings.

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Speaker 1: So unless you're dirt cheap or going to create a

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Speaker 1: shiny object moment by being like a Cathy would I

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Speaker 1: just don't know. Uh, it's it's it's gonna be a

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Speaker 1: tough road in my opinion. Although it looked like American

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Speaker 1: Century put its own money in there. They have like

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Speaker 1: two million now in those So if they're able to

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Speaker 1: move money from the mutual funds over, uh, they could

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Speaker 1: save assets potentially for themselves. But I don't know about grassroots. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I agree, Um, I think I'd probably take the under

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Speaker 1: on it. It It is actually seeing like real demand from

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Speaker 1: clients outside of just money being moved from from the

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Speaker 1: firms themselves in it. So Tom, when you think about

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Speaker 1: this topic, what do you what are you most looking

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Speaker 1: for in the second half. Um, for this, it's gonna

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Speaker 1: be they have to really prove their value prop Like

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Speaker 1: Eric said, they're more expense if they're going through all

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Speaker 1: this to hide their holdings. Um, they really have to.

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Speaker 1: I mean it's gonna it's gonna they're gonna really have

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Speaker 1: to show that we are by doing this where we're

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Speaker 1: adding more value than even the e T s that

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Speaker 1: are out on the market. Because I think there there's

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Speaker 1: just a lot of hurdles that need to get off

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Speaker 1: of them, and I'd be interesting to see who else

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Speaker 1: comes into the market. So you have American Century, They're

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Speaker 1: obviously a big name. Fidelity is a huge name. Um,

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Speaker 1: so I'd be willing to see who else gets gets

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Speaker 1: brought into the market here. And I think they're gonna

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Speaker 1: be looking obviously what these first entrants are doing. I

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Speaker 1: sort of engauge if some of these other bigger firms

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Speaker 1: are gonna you know, some a lot have been filed.

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Speaker 1: But I think also market timing plays a role here too.

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Speaker 1: There was like three e t F launched in March,

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Speaker 1: then in April all these new ETF started launching, including

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Speaker 1: these active ones. So um, it's also probably interesting like

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Speaker 1: a sentiment gauge too to see, Hey, do they maybe

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Speaker 1: think that the market has stabilized here and that's why

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Speaker 1: they're they're starting to roll out some of these products. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's use this opportunity to transition into a second half preview. So, uh,

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Speaker 1: we're in the locker room. John plays Uh, James, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna start with you. What what's the second half look like? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so this is something that I've been tracking for the

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Speaker 1: past couple of months. We obviously are constantly tracking where

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Speaker 1: money is going in in the asset management industry, mutual

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Speaker 1: funds ets, and the big thing that jumps off the

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Speaker 1: screen is the money that went into money market funds

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Speaker 1: in the first half UM. So basically everyone likes to

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Speaker 1: say cash on the sideline, I would I would argue

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Speaker 1: the term is overused, but right now there's more cash

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Speaker 1: on the sideline than UM. They're virtually ever has been

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Speaker 1: in the well, not ever has been but since two

358
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Speaker 1: thousand eight by different measures. So you look at this,

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Speaker 1: we see we saw seven hundred seventeen billion when it'so

360
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Speaker 1: money market funds in March. Four hundred and ten billion

361
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Speaker 1: went into money markets in April. It's slowed down, but

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Speaker 1: there was still inflows in May at forty two billion UM.

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Speaker 1: And what this comes up to is there's over five

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Speaker 1: there's five trillion dollars in money market securities, which to

365
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Speaker 1: be what money market securities are there basically cash, commercial

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Speaker 1: paper repurchase agreements, these short term overnight type vehicles, very

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Speaker 1: short term vehicles. And if you look at it as

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Speaker 1: a percentage of the SMP five market cap right now,

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Speaker 1: it's at about it was at the end of April.

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Speaker 1: It's now around nineteen because the equity market has come

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Speaker 1: back a little bit, but that's the highest level we've

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Speaker 1: seen since. And then if you look at as a

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Speaker 1: percentage of mutual fund assets, it's at the highest level

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Speaker 1: since two thousand eleven, so it was up at last

375
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Speaker 1: we checked UM. So there's basically a lot of cash

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Speaker 1: on the sidelines. Now I should also caveat this with

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Speaker 1: what happened in March. The part of the reason why

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Speaker 1: there were such big inflows as all these corporations have

379
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Speaker 1: these bank loans revolvers are kind of like credit cards

380
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Speaker 1: essentially for corporations with the bank, and they drew down

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Speaker 1: that money and so they took in billions of dollars

382
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Speaker 1: and rather than sit on cash, they put it into

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Speaker 1: these money market funds. So that's big chunk of where

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Speaker 1: this money is coming from. But still that's still money

385
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Speaker 1: on the sidelines UM, and there there's money to be deployed.

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Speaker 1: Also on e t F s alone, we there's a

387
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Speaker 1: lot of UM. There's a few et F that's focused

388
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Speaker 1: on treasuries, so one to three month treasuries less than

389
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Speaker 1: one year treasuries that are basically similar to money market

390
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Speaker 1: funds in a in a sense or the way they're

391
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Speaker 1: being used. They've also seen significant inflows. So there has

392
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Speaker 1: been a lot of money on the sidelines. And if

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Speaker 1: you look at fixed income and equity flows, equity flows

394
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:19,640
Speaker 1: have been muted. I mean, the equity market is obviously

395
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Speaker 1: up in April and May, and we haven't really seen

396
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Speaker 1: anything significant on the equity side of e t F flows.

397
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Speaker 1: The only area that's been significant has been sector bets.

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Speaker 1: There's definitely a lot of money flowing into specific sector

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Speaker 1: e t s, as Tom wrote about last month on

400
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Speaker 1: a research side. But fixed income has taken in a

401
00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,160
Speaker 1: lot of money. But again, equity has just been kind

402
00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:42,639
Speaker 1: of muted. It's been not there's nothing really happening on

403
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Speaker 1: that side. And let me just this is an important

404
00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,439
Speaker 1: issue because no flows into equity e t f s

405
00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,280
Speaker 1: is unusual for a rally. And there's a couple of theories.

406
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:58,360
Speaker 1: There's portfolio rebalancing, there's taxation, there's maybe other opportunities, but

407
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Speaker 1: I gotta I mean, Tom's been covering this the most.

408
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Speaker 1: I do found myself a little dumbfounded that there hasn't

409
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:07,879
Speaker 1: been at least a healthy amount of flows given the rally,

410
00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:11,240
Speaker 1: it's up what markets up since the low in March. Right,

411
00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,159
Speaker 1: it's definitely little odd, Like James said, a lot of it,

412
00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,000
Speaker 1: some of it's just shifting, but still like you're just

413
00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:19,720
Speaker 1: going from a broad sector to like a specific sector

414
00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,720
Speaker 1: et F or from like SMP to like attack. But

415
00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:25,840
Speaker 1: net net, there's no new flows. I think that's really interesting, right,

416
00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:28,880
Speaker 1: there's not actually new money coming into the market, so um,

417
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:31,800
Speaker 1: you know, I think that the it's very odd to

418
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Speaker 1: see the market rally so much not have flows sort

419
00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,440
Speaker 1: of follow up behind it. Yeah, and there was there

420
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Speaker 1: was nine billion that went out of equity e t

421
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Speaker 1: s in May, so the market was going up and

422
00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:43,439
Speaker 1: we saw outflows. And we have this one chart that

423
00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:46,040
Speaker 1: we like to show every year. Flows tend to pick

424
00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:48,119
Speaker 1: up when the equity market does well, so for to

425
00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,680
Speaker 1: have a breakdown in that relationship is pretty significant. These

426
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:53,399
Speaker 1: e t f s like Voo, which tend to have

427
00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:56,639
Speaker 1: dri drip retail money coming in, I think they're more

428
00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,240
Speaker 1: in models, and I think the models all had signal

429
00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:01,280
Speaker 1: shifting to pick didn't come when the FED was going

430
00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:03,800
Speaker 1: to start buying those bondy tfs. So I think that's

431
00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,159
Speaker 1: when you saw, uh, some of that too. So I

432
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,280
Speaker 1: think sometimes these e t f s that were tended

433
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:10,919
Speaker 1: to be always like just used directly by advisors are

434
00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,320
Speaker 1: getting more and more in these models, which we discussed

435
00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:15,080
Speaker 1: by the way in the last episode with Tim Clift

436
00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:22,600
Speaker 1: of Investnet. If you're interested, okay, Eric, your second half preview. Yeah,

437
00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:24,600
Speaker 1: it's on E s G. Which when we did the

438
00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,439
Speaker 1: Hester Purse interview with the SEC, you called me an

439
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:29,560
Speaker 1: E s G hater and then Magnus cut out my

440
00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:32,600
Speaker 1: response which didn't make it on the final cut, which was,

441
00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:34,880
Speaker 1: I'm not a hater per se. I'm just a I'm

442
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,440
Speaker 1: a realist, Like I'm not anti E s G. I'm

443
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,600
Speaker 1: just anti nasty surprise, and I'm also anti hype and

444
00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:43,040
Speaker 1: bias and there's a lot going a lot of that

445
00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:45,280
Speaker 1: all in this E s G soup. So I'm always

446
00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:49,120
Speaker 1: watching E s G. Look when I talk about the bias,

447
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,159
Speaker 1: when you look at the the articles on E s

448
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:55,440
Speaker 1: G recently, all of them will say record flows into

449
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,359
Speaker 1: E s G. And it's true. E s G've taken

450
00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:01,880
Speaker 1: in thirteen billion this year and they took an eight

451
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,440
Speaker 1: billion last year. Both of those are records, right, So

452
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:06,760
Speaker 1: it's a ton of money for a category that didn't

453
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,680
Speaker 1: have much going on before last year. And I think

454
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:11,800
Speaker 1: most people know this, but they just don't say it.

455
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,760
Speaker 1: Most of that money, the majority, like in the case

456
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:18,439
Speaker 1: of this year, about ten billion of it isn't is

457
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:23,520
Speaker 1: because of two investors, one big institution in Europe as

458
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,520
Speaker 1: well as black Rock. Black Rock has moved after Larry

459
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:28,680
Speaker 1: Fink had that big announcement earlier in the year, they

460
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:30,720
Speaker 1: moved E S G U and a couple others into

461
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:35,760
Speaker 1: their models that advisors use and that is responsible for

462
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:38,639
Speaker 1: most of them. So yes, that money still counts. And

463
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,280
Speaker 1: believe me, in the Terror Dome, I give credit where

464
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,679
Speaker 1: it's due. It does count. I just think people are

465
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:48,200
Speaker 1: presenting this as millennials have E S G fever. That's

466
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:50,360
Speaker 1: you know, that's what they want. I just don't think

467
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:52,639
Speaker 1: that's true because the grassroot flows just aren't there. Like

468
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,119
Speaker 1: if you take the Vanguard E t F E S

469
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 1: g V, it's taken in seven million this year, or

470
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,800
Speaker 1: how about Spy the SMP fossil fuel Free E t

471
00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 1: F that's a hundred million. That's more where the market is.

472
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,639
Speaker 1: And I think it's just underwhelming again. And I also

473
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,840
Speaker 1: think this Robin hood situation has shown us that, if anything,

474
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:17,040
Speaker 1: millennials and gen z are much more into trading than

475
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,720
Speaker 1: they are into E s G, and I think people

476
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:25,040
Speaker 1: might have under estimated how much millennials want to change

477
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:28,399
Speaker 1: the world with their investments. Further, E s G U,

478
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 1: which is the one that black Rock put in the model,

479
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,480
Speaker 1: to me, this is probably the biggest of the biggest

480
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,000
Speaker 1: hope for E s G because remember what g SLC

481
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,040
Speaker 1: the Goldman Sachs Multi Factory t F did to Smart Beta.

482
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:42,120
Speaker 1: It moves a lot like the SMP and it only

483
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,480
Speaker 1: charges nine basis points, so an advisor has a story,

484
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:47,399
Speaker 1: but they don't have any tracking error to worry about.

485
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:49,119
Speaker 1: E s g U is kind of that for E

486
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,639
Speaker 1: s G charges fifteen basis points and it tracks pretty

487
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,439
Speaker 1: closely to the market. It's virtually going to give you

488
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,640
Speaker 1: similar returns. But here's the thing, you're not going to really,

489
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,680
Speaker 1: I mean, how much change are you really an infect here?

490
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,720
Speaker 1: Because E s GU holds x On and Chevron, you

491
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 1: have smaller waitings, but they still own them. Most people

492
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,639
Speaker 1: who want E s G to me are looking to

493
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:13,200
Speaker 1: not hold those companies. So I think this is part

494
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 1: of the issue with E S G. Why are you

495
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 1: investing in it? Are you going to be happy if

496
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 1: it doesn't you know, match the market's performance? But to me,

497
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 1: E s G U which is you know the one

498
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 1: that to me is uh, you could replace your S

499
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,400
Speaker 1: and P five hundred exposure with this or your equity

500
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 1: and you wouldn't be that much different than the market.

501
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,879
Speaker 1: So I think for advisors that's a big deal because

502
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:35,879
Speaker 1: they don't really want to have to explain to their

503
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,160
Speaker 1: clients why they've underperformed. Plus they also want everything cheap,

504
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 1: and this one's fifteen BIPs, so there's a there's some

505
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 1: bright spots here, don't get me wrong. I just think

506
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 1: relative to the media hype, if you look at a

507
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 1: chart of E s G mentions, it just keeps going

508
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:49,879
Speaker 1: up and up and up and up. The media really

509
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 1: wants this to be a thing, and I just you know,

510
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 1: what's that quote in mean girls like you're trying to

511
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,679
Speaker 1: make fetch happen and it just won't. I think that

512
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 1: what he's talked about E S to you. There's also

513
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 1: SMPE in the US, in on the US exchanges, which

514
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,920
Speaker 1: is basically smp F s G index, And what these

515
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 1: indexes do that there's there's two ways to look at this.

516
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 1: You can either be inclusionary or exclusionary as far as

517
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 1: are not concerned, and there's like a scale, so if

518
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:18,119
Speaker 1: you're exclusionary, you're excluding the worst actors. If you're inclusion

519
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,880
Speaker 1: or you're going after the companies that are meeting these

520
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,159
Speaker 1: the specific criteria, they're doing everything they can. But the

521
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 1: problem in some of this is like there's some of

522
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 1: these companies are so big, they're bound to have issues.

523
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 1: So the bet the way that some of these other

524
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,120
Speaker 1: ones are doing an exclusionary factor where they're just excluding

525
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 1: i don't know, controversial weapons, tobacco, and a few other things.

526
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 1: But then the rest of it is they're trying to

527
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,159
Speaker 1: give you the same risk return characteristics as the market,

528
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 1: but just taking out the things that are the least

529
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:45,640
Speaker 1: E s G the things that are performing the worst

530
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 1: by sector. So you're gonna get some oil exposure and

531
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:49,639
Speaker 1: just get rid of the companies that are the worst

532
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 1: on the E s G scale things like that, and

533
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 1: that gives you a similar risk return profile. And you

534
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 1: could argue that it's it's basically a risk metric. You're

535
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 1: taking out the risk from environmental issues or social issues

536
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,680
Speaker 1: of governance issue, try to limit them as much as possible,

537
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 1: And these funds are outperforming the SMP five since their

538
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,919
Speaker 1: launched in many cases. So it's it's showing that it's working,

539
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 1: and it's I think that's where there's gonna be a

540
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 1: lot more interest. We've seen, as Eric mentioned with g

541
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:16,399
Speaker 1: SLC in the smart beta world, the real water down factors,

542
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:17,679
Speaker 1: the one to give you a lot of beta but

543
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 1: give you a little bit of the factor the ones

544
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 1: that advisors like the most. So I think these are

545
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 1: the most of the I'm the most bullish on this

546
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 1: aspect of the category for gaining significant assets. That said,

547
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,680
Speaker 1: isn't like when you think about advisers doing that, that's

548
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 1: very different than I want to change the world. I mean,

549
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 1: how many people who go into E s G thinking

550
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 1: I'm gonna clean up my portfolio. Then you're like, oh,

551
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 1: this fun holds xon. By the way, this is where

552
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 1: I completely agree with you. I don't think like E

553
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 1: s G investing is the way to change the world.

554
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 1: I think that you can benefit from the things that

555
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 1: are going to happen with governments and regulations and all

556
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 1: these different things by avoiding the worst actors. But I

557
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 1: don't think just investing in a company is going to

558
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 1: make them more E S G friendly, Like theoretically it

559
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,880
Speaker 1: could happen. Um. I mean, I would argue that you're

560
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 1: probably better off getting a bunch of money investing in

561
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:05,639
Speaker 1: the worst actors and trying to invoke change and we

562
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 1: of proxy votes potentially, there's all the different ways to

563
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,880
Speaker 1: do this. I just think the most viable asset gathering wise,

564
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,400
Speaker 1: productive wise for a portfolio is the exclusionary route, where

565
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 1: you're getting a similar return characteristic of the market. Alright,

566
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 1: second half is upon us, what's your pick to watch?

567
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,160
Speaker 1: I'm watching small caps. I think we're going to see

568
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 1: whether sort of a rotation equity leadership actually happens and

569
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 1: holes and I want to see whether you know, et

570
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,880
Speaker 1: F investors are ahead of of a rotation and sort

571
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: of believe that that small cap recovery could be part

572
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 1: of another leg in a rally here and I think

573
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,400
Speaker 1: you know, we've seen head funds and other bigger speculators

574
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 1: roll back short positions starting in dint. This tend to

575
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,479
Speaker 1: be a bit leaving um and so now Russell two

576
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: thousand futures are sort of net long um. We've seen

577
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 1: I mean you know, high yields spreads are still relatively high,

578
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: which is when small caps tend to do better. Um.

579
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 1: And so just looking at the size factor within the

580
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 1: Russell one thousand, we've seen our strategies team sort of

581
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 1: site mid single digit gains attributable to the factor in

582
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 1: the past couple of months. UM, I think that might

583
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 1: be encouraging some some flows. And then you know they've

584
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 1: also are you know, our our strategy counterparts have pointed out,

585
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 1: you know, the way that small cap is continuing to

586
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 1: trade at fundamental discounts, and and you know, I think

587
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:31,919
Speaker 1: the next most optimistic investors are looking at small caps.

588
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 1: So you know, I w M has actually seen, um,

589
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,680
Speaker 1: you know, it's a sort of representative ETF tracking the

590
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 1: Russell two thousand, it's actually seem pretty sizeable outflows. And

591
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 1: that may be because of how heavily it's used tactically,

592
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 1: but it's gotten. You know, small caps in general have

593
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: seen offsetting inflows UM to the category, and some of

594
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 1: those leaders are VB and SPSN, So it's just other

595
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: small cap ets are kind of leading this. But Tom

596
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 1: wrote recently about that this beta small cap segment has

597
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 1: taken in really pretty strong flows in June. I think

598
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 1: it's one point six billion as as of today, and

599
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 1: invest goes equal weight RSP find this kind of leading

600
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 1: that category. So we're watching that for the rest of

601
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 1: the year. And just one thing on the small caps

602
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 1: versus large caps. The large caps are dominated by these

603
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 1: giant companies. If they ever try to break up some

604
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 1: of these companies, or there's just a shift in the

605
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 1: way people shop. I mean you could see small caps.

606
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: I mean they've just been down and out for ten years,

607
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 1: and you know, nothing stays down and out forever. UM.

608
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 1: Maybe small cap value, which by the way, a lot

609
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 1: of people are asking, is there a bankruptcy et F

610
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 1: because of hurts and stuff? And I think small cap

611
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 1: value is as close as you can get or micro caps,

612
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 1: but I j R. I think is the small cap

613
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 1: value in case anybody is interested in that. I mean,

614
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 1: it's put that up against SMP five hundred. It is

615
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 1: just like it is brutal. What what's the ticker for

616
00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 1: a bankruptcy e t F bust if they had one? Yeah,

617
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 1: I think Tom, bring us home? What's your second half? Pick?

618
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 1: What I'm watching? And because we're going into the summer now, um,

619
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 1: normally the summer. It's not a secret, it's it's markets

620
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 1: really quiet. Et F trading is really quiet during the

621
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: summer months and the third quarter it's usually like just

622
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 1: the lowest quarter for trading. But I think this year

623
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 1: is going to be very different. You have everyone continue

624
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 1: to work from home through the summer. You probably have

625
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 1: a lot of vacations that either got cut short or

626
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 1: they're just doing you know, staycations. Now you have the

627
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 1: first full summer where like every platform is commissioned free

628
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 1: et F Trading, Robin Hood, Schwab, all of those. I

629
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 1: think this is gonna be a really busy summer for

630
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 1: et F trading. UM some of the stuff that Morgan

631
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 1: mentioned with the interest in thematics, I think we're I

632
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 1: think the third quarter, in the summer months are going

633
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: to punch away above their weight this year, just because

634
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 1: of the environment that we're currently in with just more

635
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 1: people working from home and just more attached to their screens.

636
00:30:55,280 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 1: This year, what happens if there's a big second wave, uh,

637
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 1: then I we'll definitely see I mean, I think we'll

638
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 1: see just a lot of market altility, but I think

639
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 1: we're definitely going to see more uh E t F

640
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 1: trading in the fourth quarter is normally really busy anyways,

641
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 1: but I think this second half of the year is

642
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 1: going to be really is gonna put up some pretty

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Speaker 1: big numbers for E t F trading. All right, Tom,

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Speaker 1: James Morgan, thanks so much for joining us on Trillions.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for having us say thanks a lot, Thanks for

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Speaker 1: listening to Trillions until next time. You can find us

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Speaker 1: on the Bloomberg Terminal, Bloomberg dot com, Apple Podcast, Spotify,

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Speaker 1: and wheber else you'd like to listen. We'd love to

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Speaker 1: hear from you. We're on Twitter, I'm at Joel Webber Show.

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Speaker 1: He's at Eric fall Tunas. You can find Morgan at

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Speaker 1: M Barnes six, James at j S E y f F,

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Speaker 1: and Tom Sara Vegas at TA Sarah Vegas Good Luck

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Speaker 1: Spelling that. This episode of Trillions was produced by Magnus Hendrickson.

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Speaker 1: Francesca Leady is the head of Bloomberg Podcast by O