1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,320 Speaker 1: Long Shot is a production of McClatchy Studios and I 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Previously on return Men, Even Bad it got 3 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: a little more cautious. What did you guys get more 4 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: cautious about white police officers? If that happens this day 5 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 1: in time, that agency backs out, they're not involved in 6 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: their own investigation. We did lab work the investigating agency. 7 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 1: We did not independently investigate. Wow. A lot of the 8 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:34,959 Speaker 1: stories said that he shot himself on the right here, 9 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: So why would you pull with Yeah, they say he 10 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: committed suicide, but they say Lancas are always considered itself 11 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 1: a polite southern town where shaded moss on highways going 12 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: the traveler into another quite intentionally. The boat wasn't rocked 13 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:07,479 Speaker 1: by anyone regardless of race. So maybe it's not surprising 14 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: that Lancaster authority has never made any sort of documentation 15 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: about Jim's death public, even if it would have provided 16 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: more answers. Historically, corners would keep all their records in 17 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: their home, but because of that, it's hard to know 18 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: how much documentation ever really existed. Unfortunately, the year that 19 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 1: you're looking for, along with many other years, is missing, 20 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: just literally missing, and the silence didn't help anything. All 21 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:37,759 Speaker 1: Street made it into a NFL. It was as proud 22 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: as we could be. Michael Bogan is the bar Street 23 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 1: graduate who has remained involved with the Lancaster community for 24 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: the past half century. US Duncan was a Jim Duncan. 25 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 1: And you know, I really don't think anyone really have 26 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 1: succepted the police departments virgin that he came into the 27 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: Polish Department office's gun from his host and shot him. 28 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:07,919 Speaker 1: Set today So for the moment, if we don't accept 29 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 1: the official police account, what happened? Was it Lieutenant Russell 30 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: Henson who shot Jim? If so, why If Alice is 31 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:22,839 Speaker 1: right and Jim entered the police station voluntarily, what could 32 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 1: have made a veteran officer shoot him dead moments after 33 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 1: his arrival. People wanted to expose what happened when you've done, 34 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: but Atlanchester wasn't place in black Bob say Less. They 35 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: were hoping to understood behind the law, and when the 36 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 1: law didn't show up, the out from the Herald McClatchy 37 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: Studios and I Heart Radio, this is return Man. I'm 38 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: Brett McCormick, and this is part six the End Quest 39 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:08,959 Speaker 1: m HM. Five days after Jim's death, more than three 40 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 1: people crowded into the Lancaster Courthouse, just a few hundred 41 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 1: feet from where Jim had died. Richard Chandler, Lancaster County's 42 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: corner had called an inquest. Okay, so yes, this is 43 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 1: actually there's a fascinating history here and um, okay, it's 44 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 1: a quasi judicial proceeding that's gone out of fashion in 45 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 1: most of the country but has a long history in 46 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 1: South Carolina. The easiest way I think to explain it 47 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: is to compare to modern things. Seth Stoughton is a 48 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 1: professor at the University of South Carolina Law School, one 49 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: of which is a medical examiner. The medical examiner does 50 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: the autopsy, determines the cause of death, and in addition 51 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: to the medical examiner, we have modern juries that determine culpability. 52 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: There's a crime, there's not a crime. Someone was negligent, 53 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: someone wasn't negligent. A corner does kind of a combination 54 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: of those two things, where the corner will look not 55 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: just at the physical autopsy, but also the circumstances surrounding 56 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 1: the death and would have said at the time and 57 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:20,720 Speaker 1: even today in some circumstances, here is the cause of 58 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 1: death and my inquest, as Corner suggests that the officers 59 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: failed to take proper steps in this way. By definition, 60 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: a coroner's inquest exists in order to establish the manner 61 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:43,799 Speaker 1: in which someone died by natural causes homicide, suicide, accidental death, 62 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: or undetermined. Witnesses testify under oath during an inquest, and 63 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: at the end a small jury reaches a verdict on 64 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:56,919 Speaker 1: what happened, but that formal pronouncement doesn't directly affect anyone's 65 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: rights or preclude a wrongful death civil suit, or prevent 66 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:03,359 Speaker 1: someone from being charged with a crime after the fact. 67 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 1: Inquests have largely gone out of style because their findings 68 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: don't actually result in any legal sanctions against anyone. Criminal 69 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 1: and civil courts cover many of the same bases with 70 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:17,479 Speaker 1: real penalties involved. By modern standards, It was this kind 71 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: of weird combination of medical examination, including autopsy, and also 72 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 1: a determination of whether the death was morally justified. If 73 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: inquests are a bit archaic, The venue where this one 74 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 1: was held has quite a history to Lancaster's Courthouse was 75 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:44,559 Speaker 1: built in eighteen fifteen years after the last American witch 76 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:48,040 Speaker 1: trial was held at the same site in eighteen sixty 77 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: one hundred and sixty five slaves were sold at that courthouse, 78 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:55,599 Speaker 1: and four years later General William Sherman's Union troops burned 79 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: it to the ground. That final episode might have inspired 80 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: the thirty ft tall Confederate monument standing outside the rebuilt structure. 81 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: It was coote room capacit come we held a capathitor 82 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 1: would get and we have people on the house in 83 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:16,600 Speaker 1: the streets. Right. Floyd White was one of Jim's high 84 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 1: school coaches, and he attended the inquest. He told us 85 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:24,159 Speaker 1: the seated courtroom crowd was mostly black, surrounded by white 86 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 1: police officers standing along three walls. What's our hero? Yeah, 87 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 1: he's our hero. Who ain't right? Richard Chandler, who spent 88 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: his days running an auto body repair shop, later told 89 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 1: reporters he almost didn't call the inquests at all, but 90 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 1: he did because of a growing public outcry over Jim's death. Right, 91 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 1: So Chandler hand picked the six person jury or inquest panel. 92 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: It consisted of five whites and Billy Ray Crawford, Chandler's 93 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:04,799 Speaker 1: one black employee at the repair shop. Pretty conspicuously, Billy 94 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 1: Ray was also the only member of the panel named 95 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: by local newspapers. I had read that you were the 96 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: only blackout and then quest panel, so I just wondered 97 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: if you had volunteered or if they had volunteered you 98 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: for you. They called me, he called it. He wanted 99 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: me to be there. You WoT have some black office, 100 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: as it were, black feeling anxious about the police and 101 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 1: about interacting with Jim's family. Jim's widow, Alice, did not 102 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: attend the inquest, but his mom did, and ellery brought 103 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 1: representation and out of town twenty something lawyer named Christopher Coates, 104 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 1: who was so fresh out of law school he hadn't 105 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: even passed the South Carolina bar yet. The family had 106 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 1: told me that he had tried to get lawyers in 107 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 1: Lancashire to represent them and no one would. I mean 108 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: the Coats is in his seventies now. He declined to 109 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: be part of this podcast, but he told me that 110 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: at the time he worked for Thomas Broadwater, a prominent 111 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: lawyer in Columbia. Do you remember any kind of sin 112 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 1: to like maybe you know, because of the racial implications, 113 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: it was kind of a a very hot case. The 114 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 1: touch coach said yes, for that kind of case in 115 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: that kind of place, It made sense that Jim's family 116 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: went to Columbia for a lawyer, and Coach said he 117 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: was sent to Lancaster because Broadwater just wanted someone president 118 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: at the inquest. At the proceeding, the inquest panel heard 119 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: just forty one minutes of testimony from seven total witnesses. 120 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 1: All worked for or with local law enforcement, and all 121 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: supported the account from Lancaster police that Jim died by suicide. 122 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: Five of them were from the Lancaster Police Department, including 123 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 1: Lieutenant Russell Henson and dispatcher George Lloyd. There's a lot 124 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 1: of well dispute about the story. He declined to appear 125 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 1: in this podcast. We spoke briefly by phone at his 126 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 1: home outside Lancaster. Did you ever hear like people that 127 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 1: didn't agree that it went down the way you guys 128 00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:59,839 Speaker 1: said it did. What would be your answer to that? 129 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 1: He told me quote. All I can say is what 130 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: I've seen and what I heard. If they didn't like it, 131 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 1: that was up to them. Mhm. The sixth witness at 132 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 1: the inquest was a doctor who worked with local law 133 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: enforcement and who briefly examined Jim's body. The seventh witness 134 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: was an agent from SLED the South Carolina State Law 135 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: Enforcement Division. The agent had delivered Henson's gun to sled's 136 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 1: crime lab, and he testified to something else. The SLED 137 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: agent claimed the snapdown strap on the personal gun holster 138 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 1: Henson war the day of Jim's death was never unfastened 139 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: in the moment before the shooting. It's not clear how 140 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:42,319 Speaker 1: he knew that the agent seemed to be supporting the 141 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: police account that Jim had acted suddenly and that there 142 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 1: was no premeditation on Henson's part before the encounter, but 143 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 1: jurors had to take the authority's word for it that 144 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 1: Jim could have yanked Henson's gun from his holster without 145 00:09:55,440 --> 00:10:00,040 Speaker 1: ever unfastening it. Oh, right alone, he is somewhady A 146 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: few you know. Well, I remember good like I'm looking 147 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 1: at you. I remember I recently sat down with Floyd 148 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 1: White in that same courthouse. Your your thoughts, they're gonna 149 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: be all white. I wouldn't have any black houser saying 150 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 1: it was just just like blackness in here, so white officers, 151 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: but like black crowd and outside saying what how like 152 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: tense was it? Well it wasn't said nobody sayingthing. You 153 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: could hear some moment, but not enough to be disrupted. 154 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: No one from Jim's side was allowed to speak at 155 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: the inquest, no statements, no cross examinations. Some people had 156 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: told me that they felt like the inquests, could you know, 157 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 1: provide some measure of relief for them, a lawyer could 158 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:53,559 Speaker 1: stand up in a way that they, as black people cannot. 159 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 1: Coats remembered many of Lancaster's black residents hoped he would 160 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:00,959 Speaker 1: play a larger role there. But inquests are not legal hearings, 161 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: and there's no standard procedure to be followed. So that 162 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: seems to me like the misunderstanding of what was going 163 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 1: to happen at that inquest, like it was going to 164 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: be some kind of hearing you would be able to speak, 165 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: the family would be able to speak, when in reality 166 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: that was not the case at all. Coats told me 167 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 1: quote a corner's inquest would not be the forum you 168 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 1: would want to litigate a case like this. In it 169 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,559 Speaker 1: was my understanding, and I think Mr Broadwaters understanding that 170 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 1: Duncan's family would be looking to file a federal lawsuit 171 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 1: in which there would have been an allegation of a 172 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: wrongful death and the defendants would be members of the 173 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 1: Lancaster Police Department, but given the way Chandler ran his quest, 174 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: the panel that day in Lancaster was left with two options. 175 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: Either law enforcement eyewitnesses were telling the truth and Duncan 176 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:51,680 Speaker 1: died by suicide, or they were lying under oath to 177 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 1: cover up a killing. It took just twenty two minutes 178 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 1: of deliberation for the inquest panel to return its verdict. 179 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:02,559 Speaker 1: Chandler and now to the courthouse audience that Jim quote 180 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 1: came to his death by a self inflicted thirty eight 181 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: caliber gunshot wound. The inquest is now complete. Although I 182 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 1: removed by that was they want to say grab the 183 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 1: police going and shot itself, But I don't believe that. Ship. 184 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 1: Billy Ray Crawford couldn't recall the exact panel vote, but 185 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 1: he did remember most of the panelists thinking, everybody think yourself, 186 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: so you know it will be a big deal of 187 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,680 Speaker 1: killing yourself. Yeah, yeah, but you didn't really think that 188 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: he did that though, Well that's what they say, wouldn't 189 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: that what this is? Right? Do you remember, like, uh, 190 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 1: they say, you know he died by suicide? Yeah, self complicated. 191 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 1: Floyd White said the inquest had nothing to resolve the 192 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:57,080 Speaker 1: community's confusion and anger. Did people stand up then? You know, 193 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 1: and sometimes nobody can be identified by what sabody, so 194 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: they're gonna express their right. They didn't know what to say. 195 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: You don't know what to say about what you've been 196 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: situation like that. We'll be back in a moment. Yeah, 197 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 1: when you mentioned the South, most people think of cotton 198 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: in South Carolina. Flats of those days would look with 199 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 1: astonishment at King Cotton's empire today. Back then, Lancaster was 200 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 1: at least thirty miles from any significant urban area. You'll 201 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: see them wherever you drive, and the textile belt such 202 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 1: giant mills as this one and Leicester largest cotton mill 203 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:54,200 Speaker 1: ever constructed under a single rule. Following Jim's death, racial 204 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 1: tensions were clearly high. Richard Chandler's son, Rick, is a 205 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: lawyer in Lancaster or today. He was a teenager when 206 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 1: Jim died. Rick didn't respond to my request for an interview. 207 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: But when Richard Chandler died in two thousand nine, Rick 208 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: told the Lancaster News that after the inquest into Jim's death, 209 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: quote sled in the Sheriff's department watched our house. Rick 210 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: told a story about relatives coming to visit, and said 211 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 1: that when they approached the house, sled agents rushed out 212 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: of the woods around the Chandler home to confront them. 213 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 1: Rick told the newspaper quote, Dad was scared. I don't 214 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: know if he was scared for himself or his family. 215 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 1: It wasn't just his life that was in danger. There 216 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 1: were two or three people. They were worried about two. 217 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: But at the same time, much of Lancaster's black population 218 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 1: worried about the economic consequences of speaking out in the 219 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:50,359 Speaker 1: shadow of Springs Mill, the ability to bring up complaints 220 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: and gets some representation that you didn't find any in 221 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 1: these company dominated times like Lancaster. Timothy mentioned is an 222 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: expert in the history of racial integrat in the textile 223 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 1: industry of the American South. Even the police would probably 224 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: be the brothers of mail workers. They would know people, 225 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: and they would be a you know, I don't if 226 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: you want to use the word conspiracy, but you know, 227 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 1: like there's a network to keep it quiet and to 228 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:20,359 Speaker 1: suppress what happens. He wasn't talking about Jim's case in particular, 229 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: so much as acknowledging that even now Lancaster is an 230 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: isolated rural town, it felt especially so in nineteen two. 231 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 1: Springs controlled thousands of jobs in town and had financial 232 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 1: influence at the hospital, the bank, even the local newspaper. 233 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 1: Around the time of Jim's death, the Springs CEO gave 234 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 1: a speech that only reinforced the company's paternalistic control of 235 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 1: the town. He said, quote, revolution should be controlled by 236 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 1: force if necessary. A lot of times that are We're 237 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: not like Birmingham. It's not like that here, but often 238 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: there were attensions and even if the violence is in 239 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 1: now on the surface, there's a lot of press attention, 240 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: and you know, white control of the black community, and 241 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: you have to dig deeper to find that what's going on. 242 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 1: There seems to be no evidence that Jim died any 243 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: other way than the manner in which Lancaster police described 244 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: at the time. It's also true there's not much evidence 245 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: of anything. White authorities in this rural southern town conducted 246 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 1: what seems to have been a cursory investigation and a 247 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 1: one sided inquest. It's entirely possible those were not covering 248 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: up any sort of wrongdoing. And yet it's also true 249 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 1: that if police were trying to cover up wrongdoing, this 250 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: was the way to do it. I'm not trying to 251 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: indict police officers because many of them are great, and 252 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: you you don't know how we'll really set kicks in 253 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 1: and the things that people will do. Upton Bell is 254 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: the former Colts scout who first saw Jim's potential at 255 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: Maryland State. Because of my experience in small towns all 256 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: over the South, there are many secret none of us 257 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: will ever find out. When it comes to race. We 258 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:09,159 Speaker 1: this is a great mystery. It involves race, the mental 259 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: state of the person, the police state at the time, 260 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,640 Speaker 1: and a town that was scared to death to say anything. 261 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's it's almost like a Gothic novel. 262 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 1: If if we didn't know this was a real person, 263 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: I woulds like, wow, that's pretty interesting. The inquest ruling 264 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 1: pretty clearly showed there was no appetite to investigate further, 265 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: let alone consider criminal charges against anyone. A federal civil 266 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: rights lawsuit could have been possible if Jim's family had 267 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 1: pursued one. We couldn't get any help here. The door 268 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:49,360 Speaker 1: you open the door ship Jim's brother, Elroy, and Elroy's 269 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:53,159 Speaker 1: wife Linda, and then attorney that we had. He just 270 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 1: said that nobody would talk period, and he was saying 271 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: he didn't know what and whom, you know. Made the 272 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:06,199 Speaker 1: people feel like they couldn't even address the issue, you know, 273 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 1: if they were told that something would happen to them 274 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:13,159 Speaker 1: or their families or anything, but they just shut down. 275 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: Not one person wanted to talk about in our conversations. 276 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: Christopher Coates vaguely remember trying to speak with a few 277 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: of Jim's friends and relatives in Lancaster. But then the 278 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,879 Speaker 1: Broadwater law firm apparently ceased its involvement in the case. 279 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: It's not clear why. Broadwater himself is now in a 280 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: senior home in Columbia. He couldn't recall any details of 281 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: Jim's case when I called him. Coats speculated that a 282 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 1: lack of heart evidence, coupled with Jim's history of mental 283 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 1: health treatment, would have made it a hard case to win, 284 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 1: whatever the reasons. After Broadwater backed out, no other firms 285 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 1: took the case either. The family felt stuck and unsure 286 00:18:54,280 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 1: of what to do next. Whether it's from fourth to 287 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 1: mention anything about the shooting. And they knew they lived 288 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 1: in a small row, sleepy southern town. Racism was abundant, 289 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 1: but it was just you know, right right un there 290 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: and see like police people know what to say to 291 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: put fear to people. Elroy says that last part was 292 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:28,439 Speaker 1: one final factor in his own hesitation to pursue legal action. 293 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 1: He told a reporter at the time and confirmed to 294 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 1: me that after the inquest he had a conversation with 295 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 1: Chief Larry Lower. According to el Roy, the chief told him, quote, 296 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 1: I'd advise you not to pursue this further. One death 297 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: is enough. We'll be back after this. The story was 298 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 1: that my brother took a gun off of the police 299 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,639 Speaker 1: officer and shop stuff in my head. As stunning as 300 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: the official version of Jim's death might be, is it possible. 301 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 1: It's possible. Any other hypothesis seems equally unusual. Think of 302 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 1: this scenario. A guy his age comes in. Let's say 303 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: he was mentally upset about whatever. Upton Bell was the 304 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 1: Colts executive who helped draft Jim. Now this again two 305 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,679 Speaker 1: versus sake, because then the police station is really upset. 306 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 1: He's screaming and yelling. His version projects at least a 307 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:36,160 Speaker 1: kind of rationality on the situation, and maybe your scenario 308 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:39,159 Speaker 1: they tried to calm them down, and as a result, 309 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:41,719 Speaker 1: maybe he went for one of the guns or something 310 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:44,959 Speaker 1: like that. If you were white and screaming and yelling, 311 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 1: would it have been a different situation. I just find 312 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,879 Speaker 1: it very hard to believe if you're going to commit suicide, 313 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 1: would you walk in being black, walk into a white 314 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,959 Speaker 1: station and blow your brains out in front of everybody. 315 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,640 Speaker 1: Carla die, the current Lancaster corner, wondered the same thing. 316 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 1: It's very perplacing, and I'm not disputing either way. I'm 317 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 1: just bouncing around things. A tussle could certainly end up 318 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: in a head shot, but typically if a cop gets 319 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 1: his gun back, they usually shoot center mass right. But 320 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:24,919 Speaker 1: this is where you have to look at everything on 321 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: both sides. I want to say here. Current South Carolina 322 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 1: authorities were helpful with my research whenever they could be, 323 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 1: and Deese was sincerely curious about trying to solve this puzzle. 324 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 1: If you're in a tusso with somebody and you're in 325 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,119 Speaker 1: a decision making moment that one of you has to 326 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: go home tonight to your family, you don't really care 327 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,640 Speaker 1: where you shoot right, and you can pretty much fit 328 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:49,920 Speaker 1: this anywhere you won't right. It's the rest of the 329 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 1: details you need that seemed to be non existent. Des 330 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: also offered a helpful note about confusion over the side 331 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: of the entry wound on Jim's head. Where was his 332 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 1: is not learned. One of the news stories said that 333 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:05,200 Speaker 1: he was shot behind the right ear. His wife told 334 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,680 Speaker 1: me that somebody at the funeral and told her left, 335 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 1: which would be weird because he's right handed. Because I mean, 336 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 1: there's a lot of stuff it worked up about the 337 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 1: laughter the right unless you sawing on top side, report 338 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: on that, because you could have any entrance that would 339 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:30,239 Speaker 1: look similar. Yeah, okay, that's good to know. As I 340 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: spoke with dozens of people over the past three years, 341 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:37,360 Speaker 1: how was Christmas? Yeah, it's good, it's good. The lack 342 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 1: of detail here was still illuminating in its own way. 343 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 1: With an uncertain incident like Jim's death, What questions do 344 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:47,960 Speaker 1: we choose to ask and what answers do we believe? 345 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 1: Those things say a lot about all of us. One 346 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,919 Speaker 1: thing that helps conspiracy theories flourishes official action that seems 347 00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: kind of half a not what it is that the 348 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:03,640 Speaker 1: event itself deserves. This is Mark Finster. He's a professor 349 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 1: at the University of Florida and an expert on conspiracy theories. 350 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 1: I am the author of conspiracy Theories, Secrecy and Power 351 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 1: in American Culture and the Transparency thixed secrets, leaks, and 352 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: uncontrollable government information. For the moment, let's say the other 353 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 1: possible narratives about Jim's death are hypotheses that a group 354 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:30,119 Speaker 1: of people took intentional steps to conceal dangerous actions. In short, 355 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 1: we'll call them conspiracy theories. We have compromition bias in 356 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 1: which we think and we seek out pieces of information 357 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,399 Speaker 1: that fit into an existing scheme that we have and 358 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 1: the way we understand the world. Conspiracy theories, because they 359 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,919 Speaker 1: are particularly heightened way of viewing the world, work the 360 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 1: same way. Carla di Se and Upton Bell could imagine 361 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 1: a confrontation in which Lieutenant Hinson acted if not reasonably, 362 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 1: may we try to come of him down. Maybe he 363 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:03,920 Speaker 1: went for one of the guns or something like that, 364 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 1: at least understandably. You're in a tessa with somebody and 365 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,160 Speaker 1: you're in a decision making moment. You don't really care 366 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 1: where you see. But Jim's brother, Elroy, did you watch 367 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 1: some football yesterday? Yeah? Hard wat football Most of the 368 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:26,920 Speaker 1: time suspects a very different cause and effect the detective. 369 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:31,119 Speaker 1: This gun shot Butch in the back of the head. Okay, 370 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,440 Speaker 1: but Butch was fast enough and a six he's probably 371 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 1: as fast as he was gonna yeah, you know, and 372 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:44,639 Speaker 1: I'm saying that there's no way unless he was behind 373 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 1: it just pulled shirt. I've seen no evidence that the 374 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:53,679 Speaker 1: fifty two year old lieutenant executed Jim that morning, But 375 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: clearly for Elroy and much of the black population in Lancaster, 376 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 1: it seems plausible. The idea that whites thought that they 377 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 1: were inferior wasn't a conspiracy theory put into these damnable proposals. 378 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 1: There are conspiracies in the world, and so having a 379 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:23,359 Speaker 1: theory of now that conspiracy is not necessarily irrational. It 380 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:28,399 Speaker 1: might not even be wrong. Here's Spinster growing up in 381 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 1: the Jim Crow Souths and you're African American. There is 382 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: a conspiracy against you to try to prevent your economic success, 383 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 1: to try to prevent you from moving to particular neighborhoods, 384 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 1: to try to prevent you from going to particular schools. 385 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: So if you grew up in that era, then viewing 386 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 1: the world through a less like that is not necessarily parent. 387 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:56,639 Speaker 1: You're viewing the world in the way in which the 388 00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:06,159 Speaker 1: world is treating m None of the other theories that 389 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 1: I heard about Jim's death seemed to reckon with his 390 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 1: likely depression, or the potential impacts of CTE, or the 391 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:17,399 Speaker 1: possibility that he wanted to take his own life. But 392 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,679 Speaker 1: one scandalous theory came up time and time again, and 393 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,640 Speaker 1: it was something I could look into. No work at 394 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 1: the newspaper in Rockyoll, South Carolina. Was your dad, Russell Henton, 395 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 1: the police officer from Micaster, and on part seven of 396 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 1: Return Men, J. Duncan was You didn't question a lot 397 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: of those attitudes because it would be like questioning whether 398 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:46,639 Speaker 1: the sun was going to come up in the east 399 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 1: in the morning or not. How we interact with people 400 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 1: depends on our perception of their social status. Mrs brad, 401 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 1: I've talked to you on the phone like a month 402 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 1: or two ago, right. I'm Brett McCormick. Return Man is 403 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 1: a production of The Herald McClatchy Studios and I Heart Radio. 404 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:14,679 Speaker 1: It's produced by Matt Walsh, Kara Tabor Cotta, Stevens, Rachel Wise, 405 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 1: and Davin Coburn. The executive producer for I Heart Radio 406 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 1: is Sean Titone. For lots more on this story, go 407 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 1: to Harold online dot com slash return Man. If you 408 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,639 Speaker 1: have any additional information about Jim Duncan's life or death, 409 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 1: email us at return Man at Harold online dot com. 410 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,120 Speaker 1: To continue supporting this kind of work, visit Harold online 411 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: dot com slash Podcasts and consider a digital subscription. And 412 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,399 Speaker 1: for more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I 413 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 414 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 1: your favorite shows