WEBVTT - In Their Own Words 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:03.920 The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording 0:00:03.960 --> 0:00:09.240 themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:13.160 because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives. 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:15.400 He just walked around shot all the black people. The 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:18.440 cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:21.160 out how to go on and how to compete. I 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:23.840 wanted to win for them more than anything this season. 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:28.640 Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app, 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:32.720 or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:36.800 I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas, 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:40.200 it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:44.560 a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:48.040 to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:53.239 Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality, 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:58.080 this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious. 0:00:58.280 --> 0:01:00.560 I would call him and I would say, I know 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:03.080 you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:07.440 Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:10.479 get your podcasts. This is the story of a man 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:15.000 who's fascinated me. His name was Sweet Daddy Grace, and 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:18.319 that's a name you don't forget. He was a visionary 0:01:18.400 --> 0:01:21.399 who built a fortune as a black man during Jim 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:25.800 Crow during the Depression, but today not many people know 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:28.920 about him. The race sort of wiped out, and I 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:33.000 wonder if this was done intentionally. Listen to Sweet Daddy 0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:36.720 Grace on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 0:01:36.760 --> 0:01:41.120 get your podcasts. I'm will daily. For years, I've been 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:43.880 on the road playing shows and seeing America through live music. 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:46.360 This summer, I'll hit the stage. Who Season two of 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:51.000 Sound of Our Town ten cities twelve episodes every other Thursday. 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:53.680 We explore the live music venues and culture of a 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:57.000 new American city. With each new episode, our tour continues 0:01:57.000 --> 0:01:58.520 into the kind of venues you want to get to 0:01:58.600 --> 0:02:03.200 when you landed in Detroit, Providence, Denver, or Seattle. Listen 0:02:03.200 --> 0:02:06.520 to Sound of Our Town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:12.680 or wherever you get your podcasts. I kept seeing like 0:02:12.720 --> 0:02:15.639 helicopters and cops passing this coming back the other way, 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:19.280 and I've seen her grandma, her grandma from me. She's gone, 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:23.520 all right, He's kind of frozen. Angela ran out of 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:27.120 the Peterson Road house to chase Tabatha up with a shotgun. 0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:32.080 Gac and George followed, and Panna was told by Jake 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:35.160 not to leave the house or he would chop off 0:02:35.240 --> 0:02:44.640 her wgs. This is the Piked and Massacre returned to 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:49.960 Pike County season four, episode ten. In their own words, 0:02:51.120 --> 0:02:54.640 I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at KATI Studios, along 0:02:54.720 --> 0:02:58.840 with Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane. It's been a revealing, 0:02:59.080 --> 0:03:02.080 gut wrenching try all thus far. While the jury has 0:03:02.120 --> 0:03:05.440 heard reams of incriminating evidence against Jake Wagner, we must 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:08.680 remember that Jake, who's already pled guilty, is not the 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:12.760 one on trial. Thus far, the testimony against George Wagner 0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:16.760 himself has been far more scant. There's no DNA evidence 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:19.280 that puts George at the Roden's homes on the night 0:03:19.320 --> 0:03:23.720 of April twenty first, twenty sixteen. There's also no evidence 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:27.480 that George was implicated in Jake's custody battle with Hanname Roden. 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:30.880 On the other hand, the defense has thus far failed 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:33.400 to produce an alibi for where George was during the 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:36.920 night of the killings. It's important to note that George 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:40.120 Wagner the fourth, along with his father Billy Wagner, whose 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:43.600 trial is upcoming, deny any wrongdoing and have pleaded not 0:03:43.680 --> 0:03:48.920 guilty to all charges. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. It appears 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:51.840 that Angie Kinnepp were the special prosecutor is really telling 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:54.880 us a story right now, painting a picture about the 0:03:55.720 --> 0:03:59.160 lives of the Wagners, how they were incredibly a mesh together, 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:04.960 but so far nothing very specific that implicates George specifically 0:04:05.000 --> 0:04:08.440 to that night. What the prosecution is trying to do 0:04:08.600 --> 0:04:10.520 is really paint the picture that all four of them 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:13.000 were in on this together from the start. And look, 0:04:13.080 --> 0:04:16.799 we've heard a lot of different stories about the Wagner family. 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:21.840 They technically operated like a mob or like a cult 0:04:22.040 --> 0:04:26.520 in that Angela Wagner was very controlling and had a 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:30.560 very odd relationship with both of her boys, specifically George. 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:35.839 But again, those might paint a messy picture of a family. 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:39.479 But does that mean that George is guilty of mass murder? 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:42.440 I have to assume there's more evidence to come. That 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:44.680 kind of piggybacks on a point I want to bring up, 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:47.880 which is just how many witnesses there are as we 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:52.159 have seen the state is really telling a full story 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:54.400 from start to finish, which includes a lot of people 0:04:54.480 --> 0:04:57.360 that don't on the surface, have anything to do with 0:04:57.440 --> 0:05:00.760 the actual night in question. I spoke to legal analysts 0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:03.200 and expert Mike Allen about this, and he said that 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:06.120 the amount of witnesses is completely up to the prosecution. 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:09.720 They can have three or three hundred, it's all up 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:11.560 to them, and all they have to do is provide 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:15.279 a witness list to the judge and defense during the 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:20.400 discovery process. There has to be some level of jury fatigue, right, 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:24.560 so three hundred witnesses would be pretty extreme if we're 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:28.160 telling a peripheral story. Judge Deering did have to approve 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:31.680 each witness, so he clearly thinks that something about it 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:34.479 is acceptable enough to be allowed in the courtroom. It's 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:37.360 just a really interesting spot to be at in the trial. 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:40.360 Where is it one thing to hear bad things and 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:43.160 to know that, frankly, the Wagoners may have just been 0:05:43.240 --> 0:05:47.120 very bad people. Is that enough or do we need 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:50.520 to have more evidence, specifically putting George at the scene. 0:05:50.720 --> 0:05:54.880 I'm so curious about how that plays out. The following 0:05:54.920 --> 0:05:58.600 testimony digs deeper into the Wagner clan, and also uncovers 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:01.960 testimony that for the first time shows that George was 0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:06.640 in fact in his family's Thrall, good afternoon, how are you. 0:06:06.800 --> 0:06:10.280 It's good? Can you please state your name? And why 0:06:10.279 --> 0:06:12.240 don't you go ahead and spell your first name and 0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:17.000 spell your last name? Alan Holdron, c r e Y 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:22.799 Joel Drian Corey. How old are you be? Thirty? Next months? 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:26.080 Pay nine? And can you tell us where you live? 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:35.839 You okay? Corey Holdron was Hannahme Rodin's boyfriend at the 0:06:35.880 --> 0:06:39.039 time of her death. When they began dating, Hannahme was 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:41.719 pregnant with her daughter, who she shared with ex boyfriend 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:45.880 Charlie Gilly. Corey Holdron committed to Hannah because he wanted 0:06:45.920 --> 0:06:49.839 a family and was in love with Hannah. Ma, she's 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:51.920 not love man's in love with her. I mean she's 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:55.520 the best thing at me really was in our relationship. 0:06:55.600 --> 0:06:59.640 We never fought. She helped me through everything. And can 0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:02.719 you tell tell us at the time that you started 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:08.840 seeing her, did you have an addiction problem? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:14.240 that's a dragadic and to painting pills. And she laid 0:07:14.240 --> 0:07:16.679 on my side, said on my side through the whole 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:20.480 withdrawals and all the everything, you know what I mean. 0:07:20.800 --> 0:07:24.160 Nobody would do that. Nobody does that unless she loves somebody. 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:29.120 And she did going through at all. And and you 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:34.440 did you make a commitment to her unborn child as well? Yeah, 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:40.440 because well she wasn't with Jake, she was separated from him, 0:07:40.480 --> 0:07:42.960 and she said it wasn't his. She told me who 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:46.679 it was. Who it was, Charlie Gillies, which Hannah's brother. 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:49.560 I was dying for her family, you know what I mean. 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:54.760 And I told him that if he agrees to step 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:56.960 back and just let me, you know, don't all of us, 0:07:57.080 --> 0:07:58.720 that I would take care of her and I would 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:02.239 name her. And so I did. I named her Britain, 0:08:02.880 --> 0:08:04.800 kind of my kind of Billiard. I was the first 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:10.680 one to hold her. So you stayed with her rat 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:13.320 for pregnancy. And you were actually at the hospital when 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:22.920 she gave her yeah, up to the day water actually yeah, yeah? Um. 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:24.880 And did you also go to some of her appointments 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:31.360 with her priority. Yeah. According to Corey Holdron, Hannah May 0:08:31.520 --> 0:08:33.680 was also a devoted mother to the little girls she 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:39.679 shared with Jake Wagner. She's a great mom. Yeah, She's 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:43.320 really mom and ever seen her yador and every senior 0:08:43.640 --> 0:08:47.000 hate her or nothing like that. Corey continued speaking about 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:49.680 when Jake Wagner brought the toddler he shared with Hannah 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:52.800 May to see her newborn sister in the hospital. During 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:55.840 this visit, Jake implied that the baby could be his 0:08:56.120 --> 0:08:58.120 because she had a toe shaped like him and his 0:08:58.160 --> 0:09:01.400 family members. I didn't make it fussing out or anything. 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:08.360 He was just all the different though, dark hair, dark 0:09:08.440 --> 0:09:13.960 black hair, like I don't know, it was just different. 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:18.839 He got the holder and everything like like it was 0:09:19.080 --> 0:09:21.040 like it was his thought. Kid, He like like, I 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:26.520 don't know, he thought it was his maybe Okay, And 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:30.800 do you remember any comments um that he made about 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:33.640 any of the physical characteristics, something about her toe like 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:36.640 like something that he goes a wagoner thing. I don't 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:40.040 know what was wrong with it. I hadn't seen anything 0:09:40.040 --> 0:09:43.040 wrong with it, but commented something about her toby and 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:48.880 a wager thing. Yeah, we're going to take a break. 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:55.440 We'll be back in a moment. Oh. I'm Carol Fisher, 0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:58.720 and I'm hosting a podcast called The Girl Friends. Back 0:09:58.760 --> 0:10:01.680 in the nineteen ninety in Las Vegas, a few of 0:10:01.760 --> 0:10:06.240 us dated the most eligible bachelor in town. Bob, he 0:10:06.600 --> 0:10:12.280 spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and he 0:10:12.520 --> 0:10:16.440 was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. 0:10:16.720 --> 0:10:20.439 He really wasn't. He shouted into the point that she 0:10:20.640 --> 0:10:25.600 went unconscious. Bob could lie about anything, but only takes 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:29.800 the one time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:33.040 us girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:35.760 to pay for his crime. He needed to be put 0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:37.880 to justice. I'll be honest with you. If I saw 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:39.880 him right now, I'd spit on him. I would call 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:42.800 him and I would say, I know you killed my sister. 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:46.120 I will always hound you and haunt you. You can 0:10:46.160 --> 0:10:50.439 listen to the girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:55.400 or wherever you get your podcasts from iHeart podcasts. Whitney 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:59.040 hell is going on here. Everyone has their limits. I'd 0:10:59.040 --> 0:11:01.560 never confronted us situation like this. I just thought it 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:04.400 was just a really terrible, immoral thing, a line they 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:07.679 won't cross. I was stunned, and I just said, no, 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:10.840 we're killing people. You may never have to face that 0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:15.520 decision when you find yourself at that line. Aren't ricin 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:18.960 and somebody needs to just for once, give everybody the 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:23.720 whole truth, like this is evil and the only person 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:27.200 who can sound the alarm is you. I wasn't just 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:32.120 going to sit silently. Buy from iHeart Podcasts. These are 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:35.160 the whistleblowers. If you are disloyal, things are going to 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:38.080 happen to speak out disgrace to our gun. Evil play 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:44.000 should be prosecuted when power corrupts, conscience is the last 0:11:44.040 --> 0:11:48.520 line of defense. I'm Miles Taylor. Listen to the Whistleblowers 0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:52.320 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get 0:11:52.320 --> 0:12:02.400 your podcasts. My name's the Very Cox. I'm an actress, producer, fashionista, 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:05.439 and host of The Laverne Cock Show. You may remember 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:09.880 my award winning first season. I've been pretty busy. There's 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:13.400 always time to touch incredible guests about important things people 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:15.640 like me have been screaming for years. We've got to 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:18.120 watch the Supreme Court. What they're doing is wrong, what 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:20.959 they're doing is evil. They will take things away and 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:23.880 I can only hope that Dobbs is that like Pearl 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:26.360 Harbor moment. Girl, You and I both know what it 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:28.600 took to just get through the day in New York 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:31.719 City and get home in one piece and so the 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:34.120 fact that we're here and what you've achieved and what 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:38.640 I've achieved, you know, that's momentous. It's not just sitting 0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:41.320 around complaining about some bills. The only reason that you 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:44.280 might think, as Chase said, that we're always miserable is 0:12:44.320 --> 0:12:47.480 because people are constantly attacking us and we're constantly noticing it. 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:50.760 Listen to the Laverne Cox Show on the iHeartRadio app, 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:55.360 Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Be sure 0:12:55.360 --> 0:13:00.400 to subscribe and share everybody. We know they're are a 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:02.839 ton of podcasts out there. Well, we have one we 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:04.840 would love for you to check out. It is called 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:08.520 The pen Pals Podcast with Daniel Van Kirk and Rory Scovell. 0:13:08.800 --> 0:13:11.920 We are both stand up comedians where actors were writers, 0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:14.400 but now most of all, we are your pen pals. 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:17.319 Every single episode we get two letters that we read 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:20.240 from our listeners, our new pen pals. It can be 0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:22.640 about anything going on in their life, and sometimes we're 0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:25.440 also joined by guests like Will Farrell. You're gonna bring 0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:27.000 you up in front of the group. I'm gonna punch 0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:28.920 you as hard as I can in the stomach. Rose burn. 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:35.839 This is West Hollywood. Keep it clean. That considered, Brian, 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:38.439 I'm just showing you that my mind is quick, if 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:41.640 not that funny. And Mandy Moore, we're all crossing the 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:44.360 line together. Listen to the pen Pals podcast on Will 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:47.640 Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:50.760 Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts, and cirely your 0:13:50.840 --> 0:14:03.520 new pen Pals Daniel van Kirk and Rory Scobel. When 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:07.080 Corey Holtron learned from Kenneth Roden's daughter Kendra that the 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:10.320 love of his life, Hanname Rodin, was killed, he was 0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:15.920 in shock. I got up. I was around eight, maybe 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:18.439 it was learner than that, but I wondered. My sisters 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:23.280 and me and her wife got in her truck and 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:27.520 we went to Quarter Lamber. Like I kept seeing like 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:31.800 helicopters and like cops and like crazy like passionists going 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:34.320 back the other way. I thinking of it, you know 0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:36.640 what I mean, I've went to the quarter. We got 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:38.960 to Carter Lamber and by the time we got there 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:42.320 and pulled in, Kindred called me and said that something 0:14:42.360 --> 0:14:45.320 happened that I needed to get to her house. Now. 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:48.720 She went telling me, really what happened? She said, they're 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:52.920 wrong I know what's up, man, So I had my 0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:57.520 sister's wife turn them around and go there. So Bibe 0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:00.760 went down instead down thirty two. We went down, said 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:06.080 seventy two the backside, you know. And that time I 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:07.960 got on her road. They stopped this right by her 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:12.240 brother's house. And I've seen her grandma and her grandma 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:14.960 father me. She's going, all right, he's gonna froze. I 0:15:15.040 --> 0:15:20.920 think I didn't and it feel anything. I didn't understand it. Yeah. 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:24.600 Corey explained that he, Hannah May, and Kendra all went 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:27.480 fishing together before the night of the murderers. It was 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:30.280 a rainy afternoon and Hannah was all smiles as she 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:33.440 railed in a big catfish, but the mood soured when 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:36.280 Jake Wagner texted Hannah to see if he could watch 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:41.200 their daughter for the night. Here's Anteinette Levy, reporter for 0:15:41.320 --> 0:15:45.760 Law and Crime. Hannah May had just given birth to 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:49.040 her newborn daughter and apparently wanted to get out of 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:53.560 the house, so they had someone watched the newborn and 0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:58.160 they were out fishing and Jake Wagner actually she said, 0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:02.200 which I thought was pretty stead. Kendra said that Jake 0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:07.360 texted Hannah May and offered to keep How chilling is that? 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:13.880 Here again, Stephanie and Jeff, We've heard a lot about 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:17.200 Corey Holdron over the years and have never personally connected 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:19.480 to him. We have reached out over the years, but 0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:23.560 respectfully didn't want to push too hard. So his testimony 0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:27.800 is so interesting to me. First of all, we've always 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:30.880 heard that he is so kind and so nice, and 0:16:31.000 --> 0:16:33.280 so sweet and was so in love with Hannah May, 0:16:33.720 --> 0:16:36.440 so you can only imagine the destruction that has come 0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:39.320 for him thereafter. We've heard over the years of multiple 0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:42.640 times the story about Jake Wagner visiting Hannah May in 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:45.080 the hospital with her newborn baby, but to hear it 0:16:45.240 --> 0:16:49.360 firsthand with Corey Holdron on the stand in the courtroom 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:54.840 is a much different experience. Following Corey Holdron, another witness 0:16:54.920 --> 0:17:00.000 came to the stand and offered explosive testimony, this time 0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:04.199 very focused on George Wagner the fourth It was the 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:07.000 first and a critically important juncture in the trial where 0:17:07.040 --> 0:17:11.640 George's character came under scrutiny. The witness is Tabitha Clayton, 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:15.760 George's ex wife. She had a highly volatile and traumatic 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:20.000 history with the accused murderer. Like Jake and Hannah, Tabitha 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:22.600 and George were embroiled in their own custody battle over 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:28.240 their son. Tabitha and George met when Tabitha's mother was 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:32.600 working for the Wagner matriarch Frederica at her Flying w farm. 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:35.119 The pair married in two thousand and twelve, had a 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:38.200 son in the summer of twenty thirteen, and lived with Angela, 0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:42.800 Jake and Billy Wagner. Tabitha and George ultimately divorced in 0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:46.919 twenty fifteen. Tabitha explains how being with George came with 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:49.520 a litany of rules and restrictions that came down from 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:55.400 Angela Wagner life was taxing here Special Prosecutor Angie Kaneppa, 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:59.200 examining Tabitha on the stand, if you could just tell 0:17:59.280 --> 0:18:02.880 us what the family dynamics were there when you lived 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:10.320 with the Wagner's. Very strange and controlling. Okay, So you 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:15.560 said previously that you were not allowed to visit your family, 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:19.879 and your family was not permitted to visit you, correct, yes, 0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:25.520 And who made those determinations? It was Angela's house, so's 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:33.199 hurdles and so are you saying that it was Angela's choices, yes, okay, 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:40.040 And did George go along with those choices? Yes? And 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:43.480 can you tell us you said Angel's house, Angela's rules 0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:47.440 that apply to anything other than just your family coming 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:52.680 and going, and applied basically everything. So tell us about 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:58.240 that cooking, cleaning, laundry and what do you mean by 0:18:58.280 --> 0:19:02.000 that at all? How to be done the way that 0:19:02.080 --> 0:19:05.840 she wanted it or have to either redo it or 0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:09.320 she'll just do it or something. Angela Wagner had a 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:11.719 ban on certain types of sex that should be allowed 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:15.720 within George and Tabitha's marriage. In contrast, according to some, 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:20.520 she also crossed boundaries with her son George. According to Tabitha, 0:19:20.720 --> 0:19:23.439 every night, Angela Wagner would kick Tabitha out of the 0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:26.480 bedroom she shared with George so that Angela could have 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:29.080 some alone time with her son. She would scratch his 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:32.400 back while they caught up on the day. What were 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:36.320 the rules that Angela had before? The types of sexual 0:19:36.320 --> 0:19:39.880 relations you could engage in with your husband. He wasn't 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:42.520 allowed to give blowjobs because you'd go to hill and 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:46.560 you had to only have sex to have children. And 0:19:46.800 --> 0:19:50.200 is that something that she said to you? She said 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:54.080 it to me and George booth okay? When you were together, Yes, 0:19:54.960 --> 0:19:58.600 where would you be when those conversations would occur? Usually 0:19:58.640 --> 0:20:05.360 at the kitchen table or in the bedroom? Whose bedroom George's? Okay? 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:08.520 And would you stay in George's bedroom as long as 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:10.679 I was allowed to? Yes? So when you say, as 0:20:10.720 --> 0:20:12.280 long as you were allowed to tell me what you're 0:20:12.359 --> 0:20:15.440 talking about? Towards the end of the night, she would 0:20:15.520 --> 0:20:20.280 usually have me leave so she could sit there and 0:20:20.520 --> 0:20:23.600 scratch his back and talk about the day. So Angela 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:26.800 would come into the room that you shared with your husband, Yes, 0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:30.040 and she would ask you to leave, and then she 0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:33.560 would scratch his back and talk about the day. Yes. 0:20:34.520 --> 0:20:39.199 How frequent of an occurrence was that every night? And 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:41.879 after she was done with that, would you return to 0:20:41.920 --> 0:20:46.520 the room. Yes. After you had your son, where would 0:20:46.560 --> 0:20:50.760 he sleep most of the time? He would sleep with 0:20:50.800 --> 0:20:55.159 Angela and Billy? And again was that your choice? No? 0:20:55.960 --> 0:20:58.960 Where did you want your son to sleep with me 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:01.439 in my bed or at least in the crib that 0:21:02.240 --> 0:21:05.440 was bought for him? Okay? And where was that crib 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:08.680 located next to my bed? And who made the decision 0:21:08.720 --> 0:21:11.399 that he would sleep with Angela and Billy instead of 0:21:11.640 --> 0:21:16.560 with you, George and Angela? Can you tell us or 0:21:16.560 --> 0:21:20.520 I guess I should say, had you ever shared with 0:21:20.640 --> 0:21:24.480 George that you had been sexually abused as a child? 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:29.480 I did, but only because he had found up by 0:21:29.560 --> 0:21:33.560 somebody else. Can you tell us what was George's reaction 0:21:33.600 --> 0:21:37.720 to that? He was mad. He said he was going 0:21:37.800 --> 0:21:41.359 to go kill him, and I told him know and 0:21:41.400 --> 0:21:45.800 I said on him until he calmed down. The Wagner's 0:21:45.880 --> 0:21:48.680 rules tightened around Tabitha after they learned she had chiefe 0:21:48.800 --> 0:21:52.399 on George. From Tabitha's point of view, her infidelity was 0:21:52.400 --> 0:21:55.840 a reaction to the family suffocating way of life. Was 0:21:55.920 --> 0:22:00.639 there a time when you were unfaithful to George after 0:22:00.680 --> 0:22:03.760 you were married? Yes? Okay? And was it during the 0:22:03.800 --> 0:22:07.440 time that you were working at Crystal Springs? Yes? Did 0:22:07.760 --> 0:22:10.440 George and the rest of them you only find out 0:22:10.560 --> 0:22:16.600 about them? Yes? You ultimately told them. Yes? And at 0:22:16.680 --> 0:22:21.840 that point did the restrictions in your life get even 0:22:21.840 --> 0:22:27.960 more severier? Yes? Tell us what happened then? I had 0:22:28.440 --> 0:22:32.320 gotten let go for my job. George took my phone 0:22:32.359 --> 0:22:35.040 from me and factor he said it, gave it to 0:22:35.040 --> 0:22:39.639 his mom. I wasn't allowed to answer the house phone 0:22:39.960 --> 0:22:45.800 or check the mill or go outside by myself. And 0:22:46.200 --> 0:22:52.360 when you informed them of this at that time where 0:22:52.400 --> 0:22:55.560 you pregnant, Yes, okay. So you remained at the home 0:22:55.560 --> 0:23:00.600 with the Wagner's. Yes, and then you remained there until 0:23:01.920 --> 0:23:05.200 approximately a year after your son was born. Correct. Yes? 0:23:06.359 --> 0:23:09.120 Did you feel when you were there that you could 0:23:09.160 --> 0:23:11.920 parent your child in the way that you wanted to? No, 0:23:13.280 --> 0:23:18.200 tell us about that. Every night before we went to bed, 0:23:18.800 --> 0:23:22.160 I would be made to go take a nap while 0:23:22.200 --> 0:23:25.879 Angela played with mission. So again, just more of the 0:23:27.080 --> 0:23:29.760 her spending time with your child that you wanted to 0:23:29.800 --> 0:23:34.280 spend time with. Yes, okay. Did you ever tell George 0:23:34.440 --> 0:23:37.040 or have any discussions with him about wanting to have 0:23:37.200 --> 0:23:42.240 your own place and no longer living with the extended family? Yes? Okay? 0:23:42.680 --> 0:23:46.080 And what was his response? That we lived on a farm, 0:23:46.160 --> 0:23:49.760 so we needed to live together. He was not interested 0:23:49.800 --> 0:23:56.080 in moving out. Here's Stephanie. We met Tabitha's sister and 0:23:56.280 --> 0:23:59.320 her mom years ago, and they've always think of this 0:23:59.600 --> 0:24:03.040 picture about what life was like for Tabitha. We've also 0:24:03.080 --> 0:24:05.520 reached out to her over the years. This is a 0:24:05.640 --> 0:24:08.520 very big moment hearing her testimony for the first time. 0:24:09.080 --> 0:24:12.360 Now finally hearing from her. I mean, imagine she's facing 0:24:12.440 --> 0:24:16.600 the person who is on trial, her ex husband. She's 0:24:16.680 --> 0:24:19.080 going to have to lock eyes with him and really 0:24:19.080 --> 0:24:22.119 tell some stories, perhaps for the very first time. Again 0:24:22.160 --> 0:24:26.400 it asks the question if Angela Wagner had a very 0:24:26.520 --> 0:24:30.400 strange relationship with her sons. You know, we've always heard 0:24:30.440 --> 0:24:32.719 this over the years, that she would cuddle with them, 0:24:32.960 --> 0:24:37.520 and she would alienate the women who came into their 0:24:37.560 --> 0:24:43.960 lives aka Tabitha also Hannah may rodin what does that mean? 0:24:44.680 --> 0:24:48.520 Does that matter? If George didn't commit this murders, then 0:24:49.000 --> 0:24:52.919 none of this matters whatsoever. He was perhaps a bad husband, 0:24:53.760 --> 0:24:56.280 but again that doesn't make him a murderer. But if 0:24:56.280 --> 0:25:00.320 he did do it and is convicted this, certainly it's 0:25:00.440 --> 0:25:04.920 a very clear picture of a destructive and dysfunctional home, 0:25:05.359 --> 0:25:09.879 but none of it really guarantees that George was there, 0:25:10.160 --> 0:25:16.320 or that George was a trigger puller. Let's stop here 0:25:16.560 --> 0:25:23.199 for another break. Oh, I'm Carol Fisher, and I'm hosting 0:25:23.200 --> 0:25:26.360 a podcast called The Girl Friends. Back in the nineteen 0:25:26.480 --> 0:25:29.280 nineties in Las Vegas, a few of us dated the 0:25:29.320 --> 0:25:35.280 most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. He spoke several languages, 0:25:35.480 --> 0:25:40.480 he did medical missionary work, and he was Jewish. He 0:25:40.680 --> 0:25:45.119 was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. He really wasn't. 0:25:45.400 --> 0:25:49.280 He shouted and to the point she went unconscious. Bob 0:25:49.480 --> 0:25:53.399 could lie about anything, but only takes the one time 0:25:53.480 --> 0:25:57.760 when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us girlfriends 0:25:57.880 --> 0:26:00.360