1 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: This is the story of the unusual death of Oklahoma 2 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 1: game Warden Melvin Bucky Garrison, who drowned in two and 3 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: a half feet of water in the Tiger Mountain area 4 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 1: in the Deep Fork arm of Lake Ufalla in December 5 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:24,159 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy one. I'm pretty much just gonna let this 6 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: story tell itself. I really doubt that you're going to 7 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: want to miss this one. 8 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:35,840 Speaker 2: His shotgun was missing. It's never been found to this day, 9 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 2: so most of the people involved immediately started thinking, you 10 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 2: know that he probably didn't drown in two feet of water. 11 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: My name is Clay Knukem, and this is the Bear 12 00:00:56,320 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: Grease Podcast, where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant, search 13 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: for insight and unlikely places, and where we'll tell the 14 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: story of Americans who lived their lives close to the land. 15 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:14,919 Speaker 1: Presented by f h F Gear, American made purpose built 16 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: hunting and fishing gear as designed to be as rugged 17 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: as the place as we explore. I'm just outside of Okema, Oklahoma. 18 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:42,400 Speaker 1: A man in a cowboy hat and spurs has taking 19 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: the saddle off a red Roan quarter horse. A few 20 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: weeks back, I was eating at the Shonees Buffet with 21 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: this man Andrew Stubbs, and he told me a story 22 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: that seemed as familiar to him as a nursery rhyme, 23 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 1: but the details were confusing. So you would have grown 24 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 1: up hearing about Bucky Garrison. 25 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 3: Yes, sir. So when we were probably eighteen nineteen years old, 26 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:12,959 Speaker 3: we started going down there to Bartlett Bottoms and hog 27 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 3: hunting and stuff. And there were some older guys that 28 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 3: took us and that we went with, and they, you know, 29 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 3: would just when we would go, they would tell us 30 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:23,920 Speaker 3: about an outlaw that used to live down there and 31 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 3: had killed a game warden. And so yeah, we you know, 32 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 3: we heard stories from from many people, you know, as 33 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 3: we were growing up. 34 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 1: If it feels like it's just like common knowledge in 35 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: this community, would you say it's just common knowledge that 36 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 1: Bucky Garrison was murdered. I mean, that's just what you 37 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 1: grew up. You never really would have even questioned it, 38 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 1: or would you have. 39 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 3: You know, all of the older guys that that hunted 40 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 3: in that area and that you know, was familiar with it. Yeah, 41 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 3: that's that's what everybody has told us, that he was 42 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 3: murdered down there, you know, by a guy that was 43 00:02:58,360 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 3: you know, kind of an outlaw. 44 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:04,360 Speaker 1: You know, murder is a heavy word, and it's clear 45 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 1: the community doesn't even question it. The story intrigued me 46 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: enough that I wanted to find out more and I 47 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 1: got connected with retired Oklahoma Wildlife Officer Ed Roodebush. But 48 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 1: there's a twist right off the bat. 49 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 4: The first day when I went to Oklahoma City, I 50 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 4: was delivered up there by the Tulsa County Warden and 51 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:31,399 Speaker 4: there was nine of us there and Darryl Musgrove, who 52 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 4: was our assistant chief. He told the whole Bucky Garrison 53 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 4: story to us, and at that time I didn't know 54 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 4: I'd be going there. And he told us, you know, 55 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 4: whoever went to McIntosh County to be careful and you know, 56 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 4: be on triple dog alure. 57 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: So is your introduction as your intro packet to becoming 58 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:56,119 Speaker 1: a game warden? They told you this story, yes, back 59 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty one. Yes, wow. In the in the 60 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 1: what was coming from the top was that this guy 61 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 1: had been murdered. 62 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, and that this guy whose name he mentioned, who 63 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 4: was the same guy Bullet said, did it is who 64 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 4: they suspected. I don't think back in nineteen seventy one 65 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 4: they could do as thorough investigation as they could today. 66 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: And ed has just alluded to the twist. There is 67 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:32,679 Speaker 1: no actual evidence that it was murdered. It was deemed 68 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:37,280 Speaker 1: an unusual drowning, and after fifty four years, no one 69 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 1: has ever been charged, tried, or convicted of murder. But 70 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: I believe that if you pulled one hundred people in 71 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: Macintosh County, Oklahoma, today, ninety nine of them would say 72 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:53,480 Speaker 1: it was a murder. This is a story about how 73 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: much precision can the law have when there's no evidence, 74 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 1: no confessions, no video, and no witnesses. Here's the first 75 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: district Chief of the Oklahoma Department of Wildlife, Officer Hank Jenks. 76 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 2: So this story is around the death of a Oklahoma 77 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 2: game warden was on December the twenty seventh, nineteen seventy one. 78 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 2: He was recently hired in McIntosh County and worked with 79 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 2: an older game warden by the name of Bullet Burns, 80 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 2: who was if you were a game arden, if you 81 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:41,919 Speaker 2: were a poacher, you knew bullet Burns. I mean, he's 82 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:44,039 Speaker 2: got quite a history. I would love to have talked 83 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 2: to him about this, but we can't. He's no longer 84 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 2: with us. I went to his funeral. So I know 85 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 2: for a fact that he's no longer with us. But 86 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 2: so they're around the area of Lake Ufalla in Oklahoma, 87 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 2: and the north west part of that lake is a big, 88 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 2: giant wooded bottom land, and Bullet had told him to 89 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 2: be careful when he was in that area, that it's 90 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 2: notorious for poaching, no tours, for all kinds of bad actors, 91 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 2: and had warned him to not go by himself into 92 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 2: that area. You know that it's just it's just not 93 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:23,839 Speaker 2: a good place. 94 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: Historically, Oklahoma has been a dangerous place for law men. 95 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: More US Marshalls have been killed there than in any 96 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: other state. Oklahoma became a state in nineteen oh seven, 97 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 1: that's pretty late, and for nearly a century before that, 98 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: it was known as Indian Territory. As someone who grew 99 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 1: up twenty miles from the Oklahoma border, I can tell 100 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 1: you their reputation, at least to the east was a 101 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: rough one. We knew it as a lawless place, especially 102 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,599 Speaker 1: known for wildlife outlaws. Here's ed Rodebush. 103 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 4: This is a very wild area. And until they built 104 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 4: sixty nine Highway and I forty, it was kind of inaccessible. 105 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 4: There was no jobs down here. So a lot of 106 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 4: people lived here, lived off the land, and they didn't 107 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 4: really like when the lake came in because it brought 108 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 4: tourism in. And for years there was just one warden here, 109 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 4: and finally when the lake got going, they brought a 110 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 4: second one on. So when I came here the game morning, 111 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 4: his name was bullet Burns, been through World War two 112 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 4: and Korea. He went to work in September of nineteen 113 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 4: fifty three, and I was born in June and fifty four. 114 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 4: So I told him, I said, the month I was conceived, 115 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 4: you went to work, and he didn't like that too well. 116 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 4: But I started in September the fourteenth of nineteen eighty 117 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 4: one and retired on October first of twenty sixteen, thirty 118 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 4: five years, okay, And I was here the whole time 119 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 4: in Macintosh County, Macintosh County, and when they hired me 120 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 4: and we finally got our assignments, they told me I 121 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 4: was coming to Macintosh County and they said, the last 122 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 4: one thing we had killed and the last one we 123 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 4: had shot all the pieces was in your area, and 124 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 4: no one can get along with bullet Burns, who was 125 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 4: my partner. So they said two years and you can 126 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 4: transfer out. So I worked thirty five years here and 127 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:42,839 Speaker 4: it's really a good place to work. But I mean 128 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 4: there's some rough customers down here. Probably a sixth of 129 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 4: this county is underwater, and there's places where you had 130 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 4: to drive twenty miles just to get on the other 131 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 4: side of the lake. But Bucky was twenty five year 132 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 4: years old and he had two little girls, and he 133 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 4: was from Wagner, Oklahoma. Well, I was twenty seven years 134 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 4: old and I had a two year old and a 135 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 4: four month old, and I was from Wagner too, And 136 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,319 Speaker 4: Bullet really took this heart about Bucket because Bullet had 137 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 4: warned him not to go where he did because it 138 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 4: was dangerous. There's dangerous people up there, and he told him, 139 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 4: don't to go up there unless you're with me. But 140 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 4: at that time, the lake was just a few years 141 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 4: old and all that bottom was only two to three 142 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 4: foot deep and it was green timber, and ducks by 143 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 4: the thousands would flog in there. So there would be 144 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 4: hundreds of hunters up there and they would shoot, ducks, laid, 145 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 4: they would, you know, just do everything. So Bullet had 146 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 4: showed him that spot and had showed him told him 147 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 4: not to ever go there. Well, the day after Christmas 148 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 4: is listed as the day Bucky died. Some deals will 149 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 4: say it was December twenty seven, but he was to 150 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 4: have some friends or family come that wanted to duck 151 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 4: hunt on the weekend. So he told Bullet he was 152 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 4: going to be scouting over there to find a good 153 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 4: place to take these guys. Well, he left on December 154 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 4: twenty sixth at four pm, and it's maybe a fifteen 155 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 4: minute drive twenty minute drive from where he was. 156 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: So ed became partners with Bucky Garrison's former partner, Bullet Burns. 157 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 1: Ed inherited the ripples from Bucky's death, and later we'll 158 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:52,080 Speaker 1: learn that we really don't know exactly why Bucky was 159 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 1: over around Tiger Mountain, whether he was patrolling or scouting 160 00:10:55,800 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 1: for ducks. Here's Officer Jenks. 161 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 2: And it was early in the duck season, and he 162 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:07,079 Speaker 2: found his way up there by himself and kind of 163 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 2: jumped forward a little bit. He didn't come home that night, 164 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 2: and someone had finally got in touch with Bullet and 165 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 2: had told him, you know, that Bucky was missing, and 166 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 2: he that's the first place he thought of. I think 167 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 2: the exit to this place. If you've ever been down 168 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 2: I forty. It's enter and around that if you've ever 169 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 2: seen the Son of Tiger Mountain exit, which is just 170 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 2: east of Henrietta on I forty. Now and big search 171 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 2: party came together. They found his truck, found his game 172 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 2: warden truck, and his shotgun was not in the truck. 173 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 4: And Bullet drove over there and was met by the 174 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 4: district chief and one of the biologists from Moulga came over. 175 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 4: His name was Johnny Shelton, and Bullet took him right 176 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 4: to Bucky's vehicle, and of course the hood was cold. 177 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: You could tell he'd been there a long time. 178 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 4: And they got to waiting around there, and he had 179 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:09,199 Speaker 4: one of the old type six Folt flashlights and had 180 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 4: the square battery in a plastic case and it was floating. 181 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:17,199 Speaker 4: So they waited around, and they got three or four 182 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:19,960 Speaker 4: other of the game mornings from district too to come over, 183 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 4: and because the water would be almost blood red and 184 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 4: it was real dark from the Oklahoma City area where 185 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 4: that water comes from, and Bullet actually bumped into him 186 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:38,239 Speaker 4: and found him, and he was in the water core underwater, 187 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 4: and he had on chest waiters and they were pulled 188 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 4: plumb off of him except his feet was still stuck 189 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 4: in and so it'd be kind of like a sock 190 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 4: inside out, only these waiters were inside out. And they 191 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:58,440 Speaker 4: found this derringer with one shell fire. It was a 192 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 4: two shot darringer, and they never did find a shot again. 193 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 4: They even lowered the lake and brought metal detectors and 194 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:11,080 Speaker 4: really looked hard. But even back then, I'd say that 195 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 4: Browning was worth four hundred dollars or so. One thing 196 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 4: I failed to mention Bucky's fingernails were filled with mud 197 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 4: and debris and stuff where he had been clawing in 198 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 4: that mud, and I don't know how probably not even 199 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 4: ten seconds she would have been gone. And that plus 200 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 4: it was ice cold water too, because it's in December. 201 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 4: In fact, they found no wounds on him. There was 202 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 4: no assault, evidence of assault other than he had to 203 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 4: dirt under his fingernails and he drowned in two and 204 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 4: a half feet of water and his chest waiters were 205 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:54,559 Speaker 4: pulled inside out. So it was ruled by the corners 206 00:13:54,559 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 4: in accidental drowning. I mean, yeah, don't look good, but 207 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 4: you know, I understand why it was real dead. 208 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 1: So that just didn't From the time it happened, nobody 209 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:10,320 Speaker 1: believed that. Yeah. 210 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 4: No, No, our people didn't. The local people didn't. Yeah, 211 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 4: and you know, I just that don't even make sense. 212 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 4: Of course, if one was just shocked that that would happen. 213 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 4: Because I don't think we had had a warden killed, 214 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 4: or they were called rangers back then. I don't think 215 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 4: we'd had one killed. You know, we had had some 216 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 4: guys injured, but he only had seven months on so 217 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 4: bullet took that real personal. 218 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 1: Bucky Garrison's death was ruled in accidental drowning. Now would 219 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 1: be a good time to run through the possible scenarios 220 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 1: in your mind, especially those of you who are duck 221 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 1: hunters and who get in dark water with waiters. Do 222 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: you think it would be possible well for a healthy, 223 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 1: strong man to drown in two and a half feet 224 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: of water? And why would the waiters be pulled down? 225 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: Why would one shot be fired from his derringer? Why 226 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 1: would there be mud all under his fingernails. Here's Officer 227 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 1: Jinks with a very critical piece of info. We've already 228 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: said it, but I want to say it again. 229 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 2: His shotgun was missing. It's never been found to this day. 230 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 2: I've been told that the corp of Engineers was involved. 231 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 2: In the investigation and even lowered the lake because it's 232 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 2: in a real dealty area and it can you know, 233 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 2: it can be drawn down, and it's down a lot. 234 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 2: But he never found the gun, and so most most 235 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 2: of the people involved immediately started thinking, you know that 236 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 2: he probably didn't dround in two feet of water. 237 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: Did Bullet just immediately think that he had been murdered. 238 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 4: He did when they found him drowned with his waiters 239 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 4: pulled off, and that's not normal, and his browning was missing, 240 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 4: which he thought was odd. But he knew that truck 241 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 4: would be parked in that one spot, and I would 242 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 4: guess they probably had a good duck hole there. But 243 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 4: we're talking hundreds, maybe a thousand acres of flooded forest 244 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 4: up there at that time, and this was really the 245 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 4: only road into it, and it had a little two 246 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 4: tracker off of it, and he was down there. In fact, 247 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 4: the first day I was here, Bullet took me up 248 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 4: there and he showed me exactly where the truck was, 249 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 4: told me the whole story, and it didn't really scare me, 250 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 4: but it sure put me. Like I said, said, I'd 251 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 4: already knew that I could trust this guy if he 252 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:07,159 Speaker 4: lived through World War Two in Korea. He was a survivor. 253 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:12,439 Speaker 4: You know, Bullet was just sick about it because you know, 254 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 4: he was kind of under his wing, you know, trying 255 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:18,160 Speaker 4: to train him and everything. And Bullet had two sons, 256 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 4: and you know, for someone to lose a twenty five 257 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 4: year old son with two little kids doing his job, 258 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 4: it was just unthinkable. And I could tell it really 259 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:35,640 Speaker 4: bothered him. But it also had me intrigued too, And 260 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:37,920 Speaker 4: I think that is one reason bull and I got 261 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 4: so close, was he had a chance to redeem himself 262 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 4: with me. And I tell you why. He told me 263 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:50,679 Speaker 4: the same thing, don't go up there without him. And 264 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,680 Speaker 4: I did not go up there without anybody until I'd 265 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 4: been on about fifteen years. Because the guy that everyone 266 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 4: thinks did it, and Bullet things too, he still worked 267 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:06,360 Speaker 4: that area up there. He's still hundred and fished up there. 268 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,880 Speaker 1: Ed just told us the most twisty part of this story. 269 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: They not only believed that Bucky was murdered, but they 270 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:18,919 Speaker 1: had a high level of certainty who did it, but 271 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 1: it wasn't from any physical evidence. As a matter of fact, 272 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 1: on one of Ed's first days on patrol with Bullet Burns, 273 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 1: they bumped into the man they believe that did it. 274 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 1: This person shall remain nameless on this podcast. I've actually 275 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: worked pretty hard to not even Noah's name, but it's 276 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: on the lips of just about everyone that you meet 277 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: over in that part of the world. But how could 278 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:49,359 Speaker 1: they be so certain and have no evidence? I'm very 279 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:53,880 Speaker 1: interested and the person that they thought did this, Can 280 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: you tell me about this suspect and why they thought 281 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:03,919 Speaker 1: it was him? How much certainty everybody had that this 282 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:07,119 Speaker 1: guy did it? What was it that was so compelling 283 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:09,880 Speaker 1: that made them believe this guy did it? 284 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:13,440 Speaker 4: He was the Jesse James of the poachers upon the 285 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:17,159 Speaker 4: Tiger Mountain and Deep four Bottoms, and he was a 286 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 4: big man, and he was a mean man, and he 287 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:26,120 Speaker 4: had a reputation for fighting, drinking, killing deer, and after 288 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 4: the late come in for selling fish. And he was 289 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 4: actually caught selling fish. Of all the things, he did 290 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:38,119 Speaker 4: a little time on that, but he was the number 291 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 4: one target. And on the side with all them ducks 292 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 4: up Prayer, there was a lot of people willing to 293 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:46,439 Speaker 4: pay good money for a duck guide, and he was 294 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 4: guiding people and he had the perfect boats for it 295 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 4: because he had small light aluminum boats with old motors. 296 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:58,399 Speaker 4: He didn't mind driving over a tree or through the 297 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:03,119 Speaker 4: mud with his motor. And he was just famous. He 298 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 4: was like the boss hog of all of them up there. 299 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: What did you think the first time you met him? 300 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 1: You're a young young guy with bullet you already know, 301 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: you know you're coming in with this information that they 302 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: think he's the one that did it. Yes, what was 303 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 1: your perception of him? 304 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 4: We carried a three fifty seven six shot at that time, 305 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 4: Smith and Wesson, and I drew a mental tenoring right 306 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,159 Speaker 4: here on his chest, and I said, that's where I 307 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:33,119 Speaker 4: put all six of my shots. And I'm in it. 308 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 4: I mean, I told myself it'll be him, it won't 309 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 4: be me. He was that bad of a character, Yes, 310 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 4: And I could tell he just gave off a sense 311 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,719 Speaker 4: of just evilness. 312 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 1: Was he just arrogant and loud? Was he like? What 313 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,440 Speaker 1: would you have thought if you ran into him? Not you, 314 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: but a stranger met him in a gas station? Would 315 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 1: you have been afraid of the guy or what? He 316 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: just look like a normal guy. 317 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,160 Speaker 4: No, And that's what was so evil about him. First 318 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 4: time I met him, his exact words were, you guys, 319 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 4: come over the house. The old lady just made a 320 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 4: peach cobbler. And he's the kind of guy that would 321 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:18,159 Speaker 4: patch on the back and all that stuff. And like 322 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 4: I said, didn't kill you. But he was a very strong, 323 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 4: big man. You could tell that he was awesome. And 324 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:27,479 Speaker 4: the thing he was doing that day and I had 325 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 4: never even heard of this. The lake was up two 326 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 4: or three foot and it's a pecan bottom that this 327 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 4: was in, you know, lots of pecan trees, and he 328 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:40,880 Speaker 4: was smashing his boat into the pecan trees and then 329 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:44,359 Speaker 4: scooping up the pecans with nat you know, a fine 330 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:48,680 Speaker 4: mesh map. He had a literally boat full of pecans. 331 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,119 Speaker 4: But I just you know, my spider sins kicked in 332 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 4: on him, and I you know, I would never get 333 00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 4: as close to him as like to me to you 334 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:02,199 Speaker 4: unless I was handcuffed me and then i'd have someone 335 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 4: with me. 336 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 1: And in your career, did you ever have that feeling 337 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 1: quite like that with other people? 338 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,239 Speaker 4: I did a few times, but it never came to 339 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 4: bear fruit. And it's something just like the hair on 340 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:21,679 Speaker 4: your neck stands up, and if you have time to 341 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 4: prepare for it, you mentally think, well, I'm going to 342 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 4: do this. If he does this or if this happens, 343 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 4: I will do that. And I rested him another time, 344 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 4: me and a different partner, and he was actually selling 345 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:39,359 Speaker 4: fish to this guy and they were standing in knee 346 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 4: deep water. And I jumped out of that truck and 347 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 4: still kind of barely rolling, and run out there and 348 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:49,640 Speaker 4: grab the boat. And I was three foot from him 349 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 4: at that time. And the thing was, even though he 350 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 4: was a feeling already, we never ever found him with 351 00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:01,920 Speaker 4: any kind of a fire but he had edged weapons everywhere. 352 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:06,120 Speaker 4: There was seven big butcher knife tight knives in that boat. 353 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 1: So was that a sting operation? Was he selling to 354 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 1: one of your guys? 355 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 4: No, that was just you just caught him, dumb luck. 356 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:15,360 Speaker 1: We weren't even looked. 357 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,440 Speaker 4: We just drove in there and saw him and before 358 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 4: my partner could get it out of gear, you know, 359 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,640 Speaker 4: of course, we was barely rolling. I bailed out as 360 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 4: soon as he got in gear. He wound up on 361 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 4: the other side and he had shocked those fish because 362 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 4: he had a shocking device and a small flashlight like 363 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:37,120 Speaker 4: the sixth volt I talked about, but it was one 364 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 4: of the older ones that was metal. And I had 365 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 4: already got some intelligence that. 366 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:42,399 Speaker 1: He had that. 367 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:45,719 Speaker 4: So when I saw that there, I noticed that the 368 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 4: button you pushed down was missing broke, So I said, 369 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,680 Speaker 4: what's that and well he just got nervous. Well, that's 370 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,679 Speaker 4: the flashlight. So I had Mike handed to me across 371 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 4: the boat and I said, where's the switch and he said, oh, 372 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 4: it's broken, don't work. And I said, why would you 373 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 4: carry a broke flashlight in a boat? And he and 374 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 4: I unscrewed the lid off and looked down there and 375 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 4: I said, well, here's why. It's got a fish shocker 376 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 4: in it. You can't let's get a light out of that. 377 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,679 Speaker 4: And that serious offense. That's kind of like a regular 378 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 4: policeman finding a murder, you know, catching the guy that 379 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:25,359 Speaker 4: did it. 380 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 1: So did you did I hear you say you caught 381 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: him one time with a bunch of with nets out 382 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:35,199 Speaker 1: or trot lines. 383 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 4: My partner and I watched him for about three days 384 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 4: from about half a mile away in a remote area 385 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,679 Speaker 4: with the spotting scopes, and I watched him, well, we 386 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,440 Speaker 4: both watched him run seventy five trot lines when three 387 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 4: is your limit. And these are short trout lines that 388 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 4: he wouldn't bait, and he would just stick his oar 389 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,399 Speaker 4: down he had in that notch out of it, and 390 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 4: if he felt that line and it was tug and 391 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 4: he would pull it up. And most of these fish 392 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 4: you'd run five to eight pounds, and he probably caught 393 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 4: ten that we saw that day. I actually drew crude 394 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 4: maps of where the trees were, where his trot lines were, 395 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 4: because we would need to find some for evidence. You know, 396 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:26,920 Speaker 4: when we did the takedown and when he run those 397 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 4: lines all three days, he was missing for about an 398 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 4: hour he went out of our view, so there's no 399 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,440 Speaker 4: telling how many lines he had up there. But when 400 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 4: we actually brought some fellow game orders in and set 401 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 4: up on him, someone in the woods watching him make 402 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 4: sure he didn't pull anything. Then I had another game 403 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 4: ordered me. We went in and affected the arrest, and 404 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 4: then that my partner and another guy were over there 405 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 4: watching and we actually said up radio coach, because people 406 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:06,679 Speaker 4: had scanners. When my partner told me that the wind's 407 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 4: starting to blow out of the west, that means that 408 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,200 Speaker 4: he had left and went around where he couldn't see 409 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 4: us and we could get in position. And then he 410 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 4: told me, he said, boy, they're doing a lot of 411 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,679 Speaker 4: snagging over here. To Dan today. We were thirty thirty 412 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 4: five miles from the dam. And then when he told 413 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:26,959 Speaker 4: me the cats in the bag, that meant he was 414 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:32,439 Speaker 4: coming in. And when he came in, I knew we 415 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:38,680 Speaker 4: had him already, so I cuffed him up. And then 416 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 4: when everyone showed up, my partner I think he got 417 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 4: on the radio and he said, hey, he ran a 418 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 4: net too, which is net's a big violation. And we 419 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 4: wound up taking him to jail. On that actually had 420 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 4: my district chief over there when we put him to work. 421 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 4: He was our chauffeur. And this guy and myself sat 422 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,680 Speaker 4: in the back seat and told life to each other, 423 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 4: because in my chief less is hard. I mean, he's 424 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,440 Speaker 4: good intended. But he asked him how much a pound 425 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 4: he got for these fish? Oh, I don't sell these fish. 426 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 4: I give him away. And there was a young girl 427 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 4: that had been had died in a fire over by there, 428 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,120 Speaker 4: and he said, I took a fifty pound fish over 429 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 4: to that family for that little girl. And he probably did, 430 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 4: you know, he just kind of liked that. But that 431 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 4: time I actually took leg irons to handcuff him with 432 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,920 Speaker 4: because his wrist were so big, and I had borrowed 433 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 4: the leg irons from you fall a police department, and 434 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:42,239 Speaker 4: that's a pretty big deal because when they heard us 435 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 4: go ten fifteen, which means we were bringing a prisoner 436 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 4: in about half a Macintosh County showed up because they 437 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,119 Speaker 4: wanted to see what kind of arm and I had 438 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:56,960 Speaker 4: drug in in leg irons on his frist and he 439 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 4: got thirty days out of that and a few hundred 440 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 4: dollars fine. And I got mad because when I checked 441 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 4: on the cases later, I saw that he served six days, 442 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 4: not the thirty. So I went down because it said 443 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 4: he had worked down into National Guard armory on those 444 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,359 Speaker 4: six days. So I asked the head guy down there 445 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 4: and said, what's the deal on this? And he said, 446 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,680 Speaker 4: had those prisoners didn't like to work very good? When 447 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,680 Speaker 4: he got down here. I think he backslapped one of 448 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:30,920 Speaker 4: them or something. He said, that's the most work we've 449 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 4: ever got out of prisoners. So he was a valued supervisors, 450 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 4: so they gave him five for one and he just 451 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 4: had to do six days. 452 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 1: Was he in his community? Was he well liked? 453 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 4: Not really here because he actually lived in Moga County. 454 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 4: He was a lone wolf. You never saw anyone with him, 455 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 4: you know, he always went by himself. I must have 456 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 4: checked him or times in my career, and mostly when 457 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 4: he'd come in, and he always brought fish in head 458 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 4: and guts out of him. But he left a tail 459 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 4: on because the flathead to bring more money into Blue Cat. 460 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 1: So what did this guy say about being accused of 461 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 1: this murder? 462 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 4: I don't know, because I'm sure he heard about it, 463 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 4: and Bullet didn't say okay. Of course, lots of people 464 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 4: ask him about buying fish, and he he never admitted 465 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 4: it or bragged on and he was very smart. 466 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 1: As Ed's telling me this story, I'm trying to understand 467 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 1: his certainty. If I told you that a person was 468 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: a murderer before you met him, that would be really 469 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 1: hard to overcome. Could it have been confirmation biased? I 470 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 1: really don't have the right to have an opinion, but 471 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: could it be possible that the biggest wildlife outlaw in 472 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 1: that region was falsely pinned with the murder of this 473 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 1: game warden. But I also know that the judicial systems 474 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 1: sometimes just don't work, and I put a lot of 475 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 1: stock in what the people on the ground during that 476 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 1: time believed. In full disclosure, the suspect is no longer 477 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 1: alive today, but in the eyes of the law, he 478 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 1: is completely innocent. You heard me ask ed if the 479 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 1: guy was well liked in this community. I find it 480 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,959 Speaker 1: a trend that sometimes these old school wildlife outlaws can 481 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:33,959 Speaker 1: be charismatic, likable people in their community, even generous. And 482 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 1: my suspicions were confirmed when a local who isn't on 483 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: this episode told me that each Christmas the suspect would 484 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 1: go to the local grocery store and buy apples and 485 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 1: oranges to give his gifts to people. I also heard 486 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 1: some pretty negative stuff about the guy and his character. 487 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 1: My intent isn't to defend this guy. These are just 488 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: questions that I have, but there are some things that 489 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 1: we haven't learned yet. Here's Officer Jinks. 490 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 2: So you know, we we sent in the best guys 491 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 2: we had at the time. We really didn't have an 492 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 2: undercover unit at the time, but they sent in folks 493 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 2: that to try to maybe get some intel on what 494 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 2: could have happened. Who could have happened. The LSB, I'm 495 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 2: sure was involved, but it was. It was eventually deemed 496 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 2: a drowning because they just never got any They could 497 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 2: never prove that he was you know, attacked or held 498 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 2: underwater or and and for for years after that. We 499 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:46,960 Speaker 2: we've spent you know, the Department, my my agency, the 500 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 2: Oklahoma Department a Wildlife has you know, had had sent 501 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:54,479 Speaker 2: folks in trying to infiltrate that area. They tried, you know, 502 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:58,960 Speaker 2: there there were folks that were suspected, but they could 503 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 2: just never bee sit together and prove it. So I've 504 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 2: talked to a lot of the guys that are retired 505 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 2: but were investigators, and they it all goes back to 506 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 2: the main investigator was at He was a game ward 507 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 2: and his name was Haskell Moseley, and he was he 508 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 2: was probably our best investigator. He did some uc work, 509 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:24,959 Speaker 2: you know, and this was in a time where we 510 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 2: really didn't have undercover, but he he from everyone that 511 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 2: I've talked to, he one hundred percent believed in that 512 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 2: there was a one suspect, but but he just was 513 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 2: never able to piece together enough information to bring charges. 514 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 1: They could never pin this guy with Bucky's murder. There 515 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,480 Speaker 1: are some things that the law just can't prove. But 516 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: I'll tell you that more than one person, none of 517 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 1: which work for the Oklahoma Department of Wildlife or were 518 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 1: on this podcast, told me personally with the suspect quote 519 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 1: all but admitted to the murder, and some say that 520 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 1: he did admit to the murder, but it was never proven. 521 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 1: They never had a wire on somebody when he said that, 522 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 1: And I know that rumors spread easily. Maybe he didn't 523 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,360 Speaker 1: say that at all. Maybe that's just a convenient rumor 524 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 1: that was started. All that I do know is that 525 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 1: time has erased a lot of details. But I do 526 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 1: want to know what the man who was actually on 527 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 1: the crime scene believed happened. So what do you think happened? 528 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 1: What did Bullet think happened? Like, just he was there, 529 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:43,600 Speaker 1: He found Bucky with his waiters pulled down there, one 530 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 1: shot deringer, one bullet spent. What did he think happened? 531 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 4: He thought someone was shooting late, because Bucky, if he'd 532 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,360 Speaker 4: have got over, say four point thirty, got out in 533 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 4: the water, there wasn't thirty five forty minutes the shooting 534 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 4: time left. I mean, that's you wanted to try and 535 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 4: get over and set up is just a little before. 536 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:06,720 Speaker 4: And he thinks he heard him shooting late and they 537 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 4: were probably having a great time. Bullet thinks he had 538 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:14,759 Speaker 4: someone with him and when Bucky fired that shot. Now 539 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 4: that pistol. Bullet thinks that he shot it in the 540 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 4: air to get their attention and probably shine that flashlight 541 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 4: at him if it was you know, dusk, And they 542 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,440 Speaker 4: came over there, and Bullet thinks that one of them 543 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,400 Speaker 4: run the boat and the other guy grabbed him and 544 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 4: kind of held him under and actually drove the boat 545 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 4: away similar to water skiing. But he was hanging over 546 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:43,479 Speaker 4: the edge underwater, and that would have pulled your waiters off. 547 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 4: But your feet are hard to get out of waiters 548 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,839 Speaker 4: if you've ever warm. It wouldn't have taken a couple 549 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,959 Speaker 4: of three minutes to do that, so they didn't come 550 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:57,400 Speaker 4: off of him, and they probably grabbed that shotgun at 551 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,880 Speaker 4: the same time too, because he probably grabbed the boat 552 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 4: because that'd be the natural deal to do on something 553 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:08,319 Speaker 4: like that. And since he's by himself, you know, he 554 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:12,600 Speaker 4: had no backup. But that scenario Bullet told me, and 555 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,799 Speaker 4: especially after working thirty five years, I think he was 556 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:17,799 Speaker 4: spot on. I think that was it. 557 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,280 Speaker 1: I guess it's just hard to make sense how a healthy, 558 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,360 Speaker 1: twenty five year old guy trained in law enforcement competent 559 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,279 Speaker 1: would have drowned in two and a half feet of water. 560 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, see there's no way that scenario. You know, he 561 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 4: didn't have a heart attack. 562 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,279 Speaker 1: But even if he'd had a heart attack, that didn't 563 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 1: explain waiters being pulled down to his. 564 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 4: There's no way because out in two and a half 565 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,680 Speaker 4: foot of water, wearing waiters, if you were going to 566 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 4: take him off, you would go to the bank. You 567 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 4: can't take water, and you wouldn't get in your sock 568 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,719 Speaker 4: feet in the day after Christmas in two and a 569 00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 4: half foot of water, I mean that water probably was 570 00:35:57,800 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 4: forty degrees. 571 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, and he didn't hypothermia. He does drowning. 572 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, he died. They're drowning because what I read what 573 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 4: the corner said in the report was that he there 574 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:15,680 Speaker 4: was no evidence of foul play. 575 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:19,680 Speaker 1: No evidence of foul play. Here's Officer Jinx with an 576 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 1: interesting point. 577 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 2: If someone's gonna hold me underwater and I'm fighting for 578 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 2: my life, I'm gonna have some marks on me. Now 579 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:31,280 Speaker 2: you throw waiters on, you throw you know, a heavy 580 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 2: coat on, I don't know if those marks would be. 581 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 4: There or not. 582 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,320 Speaker 1: That's a great point. If I was decked out. 583 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 2: If I looked like a duck hunter, or I was 584 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 2: checking duck hunters, I'm gonna have so many clothes on 585 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 2: that quite frankly, it would be easy for you know, 586 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 2: for someone that was bigger than me and I got 587 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 2: too close to them, or most likely more than one person, 588 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,640 Speaker 2: that they're going to grab you and and and they're 589 00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:00,799 Speaker 2: gonna hold you underwater. And I don't know if there 590 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:05,840 Speaker 2: would be any indications other than water in your lungs. 591 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,840 Speaker 1: Originally, one of my bigger questions was why wouldn't he 592 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:13,480 Speaker 1: have shown signs of a struggle, But big clothes could 593 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 1: have been the reason. When I look at this story, 594 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:21,880 Speaker 1: to me, the biggest piece of evidence that indicates that 595 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:25,120 Speaker 1: there was some kind of foul play, which I know 596 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 1: is calculated into this, was that his gun. His shotgun 597 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:33,719 Speaker 1: was never found. If he was recreational duck hunting or 598 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:37,239 Speaker 1: if he was patrolling, which we really don't know, we 599 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:39,160 Speaker 1: don't we truly don't know what he was doing. But 600 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:42,200 Speaker 1: he was in his company, he was in Oklahoma Wildlife truck, 601 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,400 Speaker 1: and in either one of those siting situations, he would 602 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:46,480 Speaker 1: have had his shotgun. 603 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,000 Speaker 2: Yes, if he was checking, you know, if he was 604 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,880 Speaker 2: down checking duck hunters, he may have felt like that 605 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,160 Speaker 2: was would have been a good cover for him. I 606 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,239 Speaker 2: mean I wouldn't necessarily take a shotgun to walk out 607 00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:58,840 Speaker 2: on a peninsula and check hunt it's not. 608 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 1: But he would have had it in the truck, oh absolutely, absolutely, 609 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:05,320 Speaker 1: So the fact that it's just like gone, it's gone. 610 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,360 Speaker 2: And and to me, you know, not to not to 611 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:11,279 Speaker 2: get you know, to be disrespectful, but you know, the 612 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:14,239 Speaker 2: body wouldn't have traveled that far where. It's not like 613 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:19,480 Speaker 2: something that would float for even a few feet, especially 614 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,200 Speaker 2: in a bottom, in a timbered bottom land. You're gonna 615 00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 2: it's gonna bump into trees. It's not gonna it's not 616 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:29,000 Speaker 2: gonna be far from that weapon if the weapon was there, 617 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:34,160 Speaker 2: and so I would I'm I agree. I think it's 618 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:38,000 Speaker 2: the biggest it's the most damning piece evidence that there 619 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 2: was foul play involved the fact that it never showed 620 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:41,800 Speaker 2: up ever. 621 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,960 Speaker 1: But that's not the full story of the gun. Jinx 622 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:48,359 Speaker 1: has been holding out on us. 623 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:54,040 Speaker 2: So one other aspect to this that so this this 624 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,239 Speaker 2: Haskell Mosley that investigated this, He dug around, he was 625 00:38:57,880 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 2: he lived down there for a certain period of time, 626 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,359 Speaker 2: would go to bars and was trying to get in 627 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,480 Speaker 2: with some of the suspects or suspect if you will. 628 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:10,480 Speaker 2: He went to his grave saying that he had an 629 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:14,520 Speaker 2: opportunity to buy that shotgun. He had a guy come 630 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,960 Speaker 2: to him somewhere along the way and said he knew 631 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:23,400 Speaker 2: where the shotgun was at and was willing to sell it. 632 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:28,080 Speaker 2: But for whatever reason, and the story that I got 633 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:30,319 Speaker 2: not to talk about about my agency because I don't 634 00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:32,960 Speaker 2: know who knows what the truth was or and I 635 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,439 Speaker 2: can't put my head around why they would even again 636 00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 2: this was fifty years ago, why they wouldn't want to 637 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,920 Speaker 2: do that. But it never happened. But his story was 638 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,799 Speaker 2: that he wasn't allowed well to say that, to go 639 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,239 Speaker 2: through with that, But he claims that he talked to 640 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:49,960 Speaker 2: someone who knew where it was at. 641 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:56,600 Speaker 1: Interesting. Wow, I could see that being a legitimate thing, 642 00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:01,120 Speaker 1: just inside of the bureaucracy of any yeah, big agency, 643 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:05,080 Speaker 1: you know, the legality. I could see how it could 644 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,319 Speaker 1: get caught in the wires. But now it seems like 645 00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 1: a no brainer. 646 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:11,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, if you think about it, and again I've 647 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:12,800 Speaker 2: thought about this a lot. If you think about fifty 648 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:14,840 Speaker 2: years ago, I can tell you there's probably weapons in 649 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:18,360 Speaker 2: my house that maybe I've had or my dad has. 650 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:22,440 Speaker 2: There's no serial number that's ever been logged anywhere. He 651 00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:24,440 Speaker 2: bought it at a from a friend, or bought it 652 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,680 Speaker 2: at Walmart, And so I'm like you, I think that's 653 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,480 Speaker 2: probably what it came down to, is that even if 654 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:33,839 Speaker 2: they had this, someone handed him this shotgun and he 655 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:37,200 Speaker 2: the Department provided money for him to buy it, would 656 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:40,279 Speaker 2: they really know if that was the shotgun. 657 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:45,240 Speaker 1: He had a chance to buy Bucky Garrison's gun. Wouldn't 658 00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:48,520 Speaker 1: it be interesting to know all the details that Haskell 659 00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:54,000 Speaker 1: Moseley knew? But maybe we can. Officer Jinks keeps giving 660 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:58,279 Speaker 1: me new information. He may have just found all the 661 00:40:58,320 --> 00:40:59,640 Speaker 1: answers we've been looking for. 662 00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:05,680 Speaker 2: So I got permission to delve back into the records 663 00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:08,239 Speaker 2: as deep as I could, because most of the I 664 00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:10,560 Speaker 2: talked to. When Clay called me, I was at a 665 00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:14,520 Speaker 2: conference in Pennsylvania, and I started immediately thinking, Okay, who 666 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:16,400 Speaker 2: would know the story? And I called and they're like, oh, 667 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:20,000 Speaker 2: there's one hundred percent of case file somewhere. But I 668 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,319 Speaker 2: talked to my bosses. Neither one of them knew where 669 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:26,000 Speaker 2: that was at, if it even still existed, And they 670 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:29,120 Speaker 2: gave me permission to go and look in in an 671 00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:31,480 Speaker 2: area that they thought it might be if it existed, 672 00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,279 Speaker 2: and so I dug through a folder a file, and 673 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,760 Speaker 2: I'm cruising along and down about four folders. I see 674 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:42,160 Speaker 2: Bucky Garrison written on a folder and I thought, bingo, 675 00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:44,080 Speaker 2: Praise the Lord, here we go. 676 00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:46,320 Speaker 1: I hurried to it. 677 00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,319 Speaker 2: It's an empty folder and I don't think there's an 678 00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:52,680 Speaker 2: I don't think there's any you know, it could have 679 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,400 Speaker 2: been someone was going to start a file or whatever. 680 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:57,799 Speaker 2: But it was just kind of ironic that I thought, man, 681 00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:00,520 Speaker 2: I'm gonna there's going to be some great stuff here, 682 00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:04,960 Speaker 2: and it was. There was a file somewhere, but you know, 683 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:08,040 Speaker 2: we don't keep fifty year old cases around, even though 684 00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:10,200 Speaker 2: this was a big one, you know, in the history 685 00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:13,239 Speaker 2: of our department. He was he died in the line 686 00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:15,960 Speaker 2: of duty. But I don't know where it's at. And 687 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:18,880 Speaker 2: you know, I don't think anybody stole it or anything 688 00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,520 Speaker 2: like that. I just think it's time has made it disappear. 689 00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:24,560 Speaker 1: So that's it's not odd to you that it's not there. 690 00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:29,520 Speaker 2: It's not uh, you know, I'm sure that's a folder 691 00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:33,439 Speaker 2: that that when a probably some old game warden who 692 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,600 Speaker 2: was maybe the guy mentioned earlier not to throw Haskell 693 00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:39,680 Speaker 2: under the bus, but he probably had that case file 694 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,959 Speaker 2: and when he was trying to invest do his investigative work, 695 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:44,520 Speaker 2: and it may have just you know, he could have 696 00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:47,080 Speaker 2: got picked up again by another game. You know, And 697 00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:51,240 Speaker 2: because we've they've looked at this, I can remember, are 698 00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:55,000 Speaker 2: our undercovered folks looking at this numerous times? From what 699 00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:57,439 Speaker 2: I've been told that they've they've tried to pick it up, 700 00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:02,520 Speaker 2: maybe maybe hoping that uh, you know, this suspect to 701 00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:05,400 Speaker 2: talk to somebody, or that a relative or maybe someone 702 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:08,680 Speaker 2: maybe someone else was there who goes duck hunting by themselves. 703 00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:12,239 Speaker 2: I don't normally do that, and so it doesn't it 704 00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:15,400 Speaker 2: doesn't seem that odd to me that after fifty years, 705 00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:19,360 Speaker 2: it's it got misplaced or whatever. You know, it's a shame, 706 00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:21,120 Speaker 2: because I'd love to get Ebb my hands on it 707 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:23,680 Speaker 2: to see. You know, there's no we have no primary 708 00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:26,920 Speaker 2: sources on this. There's no one live that we that 709 00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:28,239 Speaker 2: we can talk to that. 710 00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:29,000 Speaker 3: Was there. 711 00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:35,080 Speaker 1: An empty folder. I think there was some evidence in 712 00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:38,640 Speaker 1: that case file that gave all these wardens confidence in 713 00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:42,080 Speaker 1: their suspicions of foul play, but it was probably stuff 714 00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:45,560 Speaker 1: that couldn't be proven or used in court. I don't know. 715 00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:49,840 Speaker 1: I'm just speculating. But I've got one final question for Ed. 716 00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,880 Speaker 1: After all your years of law enforcement, now that you're retired, 717 00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:00,239 Speaker 1: do how much faith do you have insight out of 718 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:06,520 Speaker 1: the system when it comes to specifically deaths that corners 719 00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:10,520 Speaker 1: get right? Because I know how time sensitive stuff like 720 00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,080 Speaker 1: that is. I mean, you know, you get a body 721 00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:17,920 Speaker 1: and it's everybody immediately makes assumptions and usually you know 722 00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:20,239 Speaker 1: what happened. The guy's got a bullet wound, or the 723 00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:23,359 Speaker 1: guy's laying in the water under the water, and but 724 00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:25,120 Speaker 1: then it goes to the corner. I mean, are you 725 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:27,600 Speaker 1: and I'm it's not a leading question. I mean, are 726 00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:31,640 Speaker 1: you like one hundred percent confident when you hear stuff 727 00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:34,279 Speaker 1: like that or just being on the scene all these 728 00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:37,000 Speaker 1: years and seeing stuff or hearing about stuff, would you 729 00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:37,480 Speaker 1: be like. 730 00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:41,880 Speaker 4: Ah, back in the seventies, how it is said, Yeah, 731 00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:46,360 Speaker 4: But now because of the computers and the AI and 732 00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:49,240 Speaker 4: all that, I think they hit it right on the nose. 733 00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:50,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. 734 00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:54,080 Speaker 4: So back then, didn't you depend on if it was 735 00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:58,400 Speaker 4: a new guy doing the autopsy or an old hand. Yeah, 736 00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:02,120 Speaker 4: but there were to been water in these Yeah, he drowned. 737 00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:06,680 Speaker 4: You know, it's pretty easy, and you know on an autopsy, 738 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:09,040 Speaker 4: they're looking a lot of stuff from the inside out, 739 00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:12,879 Speaker 4: and there was no other wounds or anything other than 740 00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:16,480 Speaker 4: the His fingers had to dirty, I mean, just caked 741 00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:19,200 Speaker 4: like they were driven up in there, and that be 742 00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:23,680 Speaker 4: indicative of clawing, trying to get away or stop. You know, 743 00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:27,160 Speaker 4: it would have been an instinct move that anyone would 744 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:34,840 Speaker 4: have done. So to me, that call of they found 745 00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:38,520 Speaker 4: no evidence of foul play made it look even more 746 00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:41,279 Speaker 4: fishy to me than you know what it would have 747 00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:43,760 Speaker 4: if they'd said, well, he's been hitting the head of everything, 748 00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:44,520 Speaker 4: you would have known. 749 00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:54,040 Speaker 1: I'm struck to buy. Now, fifty years later, we've got 750 00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:58,920 Speaker 1: this story, We've got this interesting story that you know, 751 00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:03,520 Speaker 1: there's so many questions of you know that that time 752 00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:05,600 Speaker 1: has kind of swept away, like we just we just 753 00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:10,799 Speaker 1: don't know all the answers. But it feels like, I mean, 754 00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:13,760 Speaker 1: if the crime lab says that it was a drowning, 755 00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:16,240 Speaker 1: like what are you supposed to do? Because there could 756 00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:19,880 Speaker 1: be there could be somebody that would be like, well 757 00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:25,040 Speaker 1: if if if everybody knew that he was actually murdered, 758 00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:27,920 Speaker 1: why didn't they do more? And I think the answer 759 00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:30,920 Speaker 1: is they did do more. But there's I mean in 760 00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:35,280 Speaker 1: the in the law systems. Even in a country like ours, 761 00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:38,759 Speaker 1: which you know, say what you will, it's better than others. 762 00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:43,160 Speaker 1: Some other places the system can fail at times when 763 00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:46,520 Speaker 1: there's just a dead end. And then in an autopsy 764 00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:49,360 Speaker 1: that says the man drowned and there's no signs of 765 00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:53,680 Speaker 1: foul play is a dead end, you know, yes, And 766 00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:57,000 Speaker 1: so because I think at first blush, You're like, well, 767 00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:01,320 Speaker 1: this clearly wasn't you know this this case, apeable, strong 768 00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:04,440 Speaker 1: young man didn't drown in three feet of water two 769 00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:08,719 Speaker 1: and a half feet of water. No, something happened, and 770 00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:12,880 Speaker 1: you know, how did something like this not get discovered? 771 00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:17,040 Speaker 1: But the truth is too as I hear this story 772 00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:19,560 Speaker 1: and have no dog in the fight other than just 773 00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:23,480 Speaker 1: you know, it's a human being. It's hard to completely 774 00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:28,360 Speaker 1: put the blame on this on this suspect when there's 775 00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:31,399 Speaker 1: no evidence that the guy did it. No, it's it's 776 00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:33,520 Speaker 1: hard to be too sure of anything. 777 00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:39,600 Speaker 2: Really. Our agency magazine Outdoor Oklahoma, I dug around and 778 00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:43,200 Speaker 2: was curious what it said, you know, and it basically 779 00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:47,560 Speaker 2: just said that he was checking on hunting activities in 780 00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:50,920 Speaker 2: the Tiger Mountain area, and it said he drowned on 781 00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:54,440 Speaker 2: December twenty second, in the Deep Fork arm of Let 782 00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:54,920 Speaker 2: You Follow. 783 00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:00,960 Speaker 1: There is no doubt that something on you Usual happened 784 00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:06,320 Speaker 1: in the death of Melvin Bucky Garrison. Some things, many things, 785 00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:11,440 Speaker 1: will remain mysteries forever, but ultimately I'd like to dedicate 786 00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:15,799 Speaker 1: this episode to Melvin Bucky Garrison for his service and 787 00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:20,000 Speaker 1: to his living family, but also to the law enforcement 788 00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:25,440 Speaker 1: officers who serve our communities every day. If you are 789 00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:28,560 Speaker 1: intrigued by this episode, you're gonna want to stick around 790 00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:33,479 Speaker 1: for the next full bear Grease episode when we talk 791 00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:36,839 Speaker 1: with a warden who had to use deadly force when 792 00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:42,919 Speaker 1: someone tried to drown him. I can't thank you enough 793 00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:46,719 Speaker 1: for listening to Bear Grease Brints, this country life and 794 00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:52,960 Speaker 1: Lakes Backwoods University. It really is a joy and an 795 00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:56,880 Speaker 1: honor to bring these stories to you guys every week. 796 00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:00,440 Speaker 1: Keep the wild Places wild, because that's where the bear left.