WEBVTT - School of Golf Architecture: Linksland with George Waters 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:04.120 Welcome to another edition of the Fried Egg Podcast and 0:00:04.280 --> 0:00:07.800 to the latest installment of the School of Golf Architecture. 0:00:08.480 --> 0:00:13.040 This episode focuses on terrain, specifically on links Land, and 0:00:13.160 --> 0:00:16.120 my guest is George Waters, the manager of Green Section 0:00:16.320 --> 0:00:20.680 Education for the USGA. So it's obviously a hectic time 0:00:20.840 --> 0:00:22.919 in the world and in our homes right now. But 0:00:23.440 --> 0:00:26.239 George made a lot of time for me and gave 0:00:26.239 --> 0:00:28.440 me a lot of help in putting together this episode, 0:00:28.960 --> 0:00:31.319 and I'm really grateful for that. So give him a 0:00:31.360 --> 0:00:34.560 follow at g Waters Golf on Twitter and check out 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:38.200 his brilliant book Sand and Golf, How Terrain Shapes the Game. 0:00:38.520 --> 0:00:41.400 It's a good one, all right, Let's get to it. 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:45.040 The fried Egg requires a different technique. What you need 0:00:45.080 --> 0:00:48.200 to do is actually square the face so it'll dig 0:00:48.240 --> 0:00:51.879 down underneath that bad lie and propel that ball right 0:00:51.920 --> 0:00:52.600 out onto the green. 0:00:53.600 --> 0:00:55.680 Here's it's a Playing out of a buried lion of 0:00:55.720 --> 0:00:58.200 bunker is completely different than playing out of a night 0:00:58.400 --> 0:00:59.960 and clean lion of green side balk. 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:03.360 You need to be aggressive on any show weather it's 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:05.759 sitting cleanly for its Friday eggs. 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:08.720 Well, we've all faked it. The dreaded fried egg. 0:01:09.440 --> 0:01:11.440 Not to be feared, though it's actually a pretty easy 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:17.520 shot to hit. The basic features of a golf course 0:01:17.920 --> 0:01:21.760 the varied ground, the sandy hazards, the closely cropped grass 0:01:21.880 --> 0:01:26.440 sometimes bordered by longer grasses and shrubs. These weren't theorized 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:30.560 in the abstract agreed upon by some committee. Instead, they 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:35.679 were invented by the terrain itself, and that terrain was Lynxland. 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:41.920 For a long time, golf and the Lynxland were inextricable, 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:45.160 but as the game grew more popular, it moved inland 0:01:45.360 --> 0:01:48.400 to other types of terrain. The courses built on the 0:01:48.400 --> 0:01:52.160 heathlands and parklands of England, Europe and the United States 0:01:52.400 --> 0:01:59.000 emulated the natural features of the seaside links, contours, bunkers, fairways, roughs. 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:02.960 The Lynksland can be seen as the first and most 0:02:02.960 --> 0:02:07.320 influential golf architect In this installment of the School of 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:10.919 Golf Architecture, we turn our attention to sandy coastal terrain 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:15.320 and learn what we can from it. Lynxland begins with 0:02:15.360 --> 0:02:20.200 a collision between sea and rock, which creates sand. From there, 0:02:20.360 --> 0:02:23.720 the wind takes over, moving the sand and dispersing it 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:27.920 into beaches. When grains of sand run into obstacles, they 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:31.919 come to rest in hummocks. The longer these little landforms survive, 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:36.160 the more vegetation they can support. Turf grasses like bent 0:02:36.280 --> 0:02:40.880 and fescue take hold, The rumpled topography becomes stronger, more 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:44.320 fixed in place. This is how golf friendly system of 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:48.400 sand dunes comes to be. I lifted this narrative from 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:52.080 a book called Sand and Golf, How Terrain Shapes the Game. 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:56.560 It's a study of sandy, windy coastal landscapes, how they 0:02:56.560 --> 0:02:59.120 gave rise to golf, and how they might continue to 0:02:59.160 --> 0:03:03.640 inspire golf court design. The book's author, George Waters, has 0:03:03.680 --> 0:03:07.480 spent years walking and examining the links katting at Royal 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:10.760 Dornic and working on sandy sites at barn Google Dunes 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:14.320 and Pinehurst Number Two. He's currently the Manager of Green 0:03:14.400 --> 0:03:17.640 Section Education for the USGA, and his writing can be 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:20.800 found on USGA dot org and in the USGA Green 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:25.800 Section Record Today. He's my teacher that our subject is 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:31.560 the links land. You know. One of the things that 0:03:31.639 --> 0:03:36.200 really struck me in your book was how the early 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:41.200 history of golf architecture was so connected to the types 0:03:41.240 --> 0:03:45.080 of land that golf courses were built on. Could you 0:03:45.080 --> 0:03:46.400 tell me a little bit about that. 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:49.600 I mean, to me, the starting point is that it 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:52.640 is kind of the golf itself is a product of 0:03:53.120 --> 0:03:57.480 that particular landscape, speaking specifically about the sort of coastal 0:03:58.040 --> 0:04:02.440 sandy dune landscape, because it was there that people found 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:06.560 areas of closely cropped grass growing naturally. I mean, a 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:09.360 lot of the cool season grasses that we see used, 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:12.440 you know, around the world and temperate or cooler climates 0:04:12.960 --> 0:04:17.520 are naturally occurring. In those coastal dune landscapes of the 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:22.719 United Kingdom and Ireland, you had the presence of naturally 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:27.320 occurring sandy hazards. It would eventually become what we know 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:29.840 as bunkers, but at the time, you know, a natural 0:04:29.880 --> 0:04:33.720 occurrence in coastal dune landscapes is these areas where the 0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:38.440 vegetation has been stripped away either by animal activity or 0:04:38.480 --> 0:04:41.640 by just the force of the wind, or you know, 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:46.080 various factors. And so you have this landscape sort of 0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:50.760 of grassy areas dotted with exposed sand, dotted with sort 0:04:50.800 --> 0:04:53.919 of clumps of longer grass, and you know, little meandering 0:04:53.960 --> 0:04:57.279 streams that make their way through it. And so the 0:04:57.360 --> 0:05:00.000 golf courses, we know it, and the game kind of 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:02.200 evolved to fit that, right, I mean, the game is 0:05:02.240 --> 0:05:05.159 a product of the existence of that landscape and the 0:05:05.200 --> 0:05:08.320 fact that that landscape was considered at the time not 0:05:08.400 --> 0:05:10.640 to be of much use for anything because it was 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:14.960 you know, poor agricultural land and was largely just treated 0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:18.680 as common land open for grazing and archery and whatever 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:21.240 else folks wanted to do. I think they harvested sort 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:24.640 of the hay from the grassy areas at times. So 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:27.720 the fact that you had this type of landscape that existed, 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:32.719 the fact that it was available for recreational use, is 0:05:32.760 --> 0:05:35.479 what kind of gave rise to the game in those 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:39.039 landscapes in the first place. And then you see, you 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:42.640 have this sort of idea of closely cropped areas that 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:46.599 you're playing through and avoiding these various naturally occurring hazards. 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:50.320 And then, you know, as the game becomes sort of formalized, 0:05:50.360 --> 0:05:53.000 and as the idea of a golf course becomes a 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:56.720 more formal thing, you start to see those elements, you know, 0:05:56.880 --> 0:06:01.680 refined and then manipulated to an increaseing degree to fit 0:06:02.400 --> 0:06:04.440 you know, what might be enjoyable for the game. And 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:07.800 whether those scenarios you know, sort of evolved naturally at first, 0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:11.000 where there was a natural arrangement of things that people 0:06:11.040 --> 0:06:13.360 found desirable, and then people got to thinking, like, wow, 0:06:13.400 --> 0:06:15.880 it was cool that we had this situation with this 0:06:15.920 --> 0:06:18.880 hazard and the green behind it, you know over there, 0:06:18.960 --> 0:06:21.680 that could be something that we could replicate. But obviously 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:24.800 their ability to replicate, you know, their ability to manipulate 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:27.200 the landscape to any great degree, at least in the 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:30.840 early days, was pretty limited, and so you know, they 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:32.800 kind of had to take things as they found it. 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:37.000 But you had those sort of fundamental elements of tightly 0:06:37.400 --> 0:06:42.359 growing vegetation, sand, some streams, and then some sort of 0:06:42.720 --> 0:06:46.680 areas of scruffier, longer rough and or shrubbery. And of 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:49.480 course you had the wind, which is you know, sort 0:06:49.520 --> 0:06:52.840 of an inherent aspect of coastal do landscapes, because the 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:55.159 coastal dunes wouldn't really be there if it wasn't for 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:58.040 the wind to deposit and move that sand around in 0:06:58.080 --> 0:07:00.240 the first place. So they kind of go together, and 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:03.440 that becomes sort of a fundamental aspect of the game. 0:07:04.279 --> 0:07:08.800 From there, where did golf move and how did architecture 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:10.400 evolve along with it? 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:16.000 Golf moved from the links in a variety of different directions, 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:18.560 but I think where you really see it taking root 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:24.800 is where people found landscapes that were reminiscent of what 0:07:24.880 --> 0:07:26.720 they could find in the coastal dunes. And at least 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:29.320 when you're talking about the United Kingdom and Ireland, the 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:33.800 big demonstration case that golf could move inland away from 0:07:33.840 --> 0:07:37.320 the coastal dunes and be really successful was the heathlands 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:41.840 around London, which had much of the same vegetation as 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:44.200 was found in the coastal dunes. Again a sandy area, 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:47.000 and you see heather in those coastal dunes as well, 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:51.240 but in greater quantities in the heathland areas, again an 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:56.000 area that wasn't seen as being especially agriculturally productive or valuable. 0:07:56.480 --> 0:07:59.160 And so you know, Bernard Darwin talks about it in 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:01.640 one of his essays is that I think he describes 0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:04.720 it as the star of sand and heather proved that 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:07.880 that inland golf could be not just a copy of 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:12.280 coastal links golf, but you know, the genuine article, and 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:14.400 I think that that was a big move. Now, there 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:16.560 were some complications that came with that, where you're starting 0:08:16.560 --> 0:08:19.680 to talk about things that sort of coastal dune, coastal 0:08:19.720 --> 0:08:22.560 links architects didn't really have to deal with. Large scale 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:26.960 tree removal becomes something that you're contending with. You're dealing 0:08:26.960 --> 0:08:29.680 with soils that don't drain as well. I mean, you're 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:33.040 kind of you're past that sort of wind blown sand 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:35.640 and you're into, you know, areas that have had trees 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:38.559 growing on them potentially for a very long time. You've 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:41.319 got organic matter in the soil. It's a different quality. 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:45.080 There's still well draining soils, but certainly different. But you 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:48.120 see these old pictures of the construction of Saint George's Hill, 0:08:48.160 --> 0:08:51.520 which is a hairy colt course there outside London, and 0:08:51.559 --> 0:08:53.680 that I mean the amount of tree stumps and everything. 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:57.360 So it's the process is certainly becoming more complicated and 0:08:57.360 --> 0:08:59.959 becoming much more like what we would think of as 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:02.640 modern golf course architecture, where it's really got to be 0:09:02.679 --> 0:09:05.480 planned out in advance, because you're clearing, because you're doing 0:09:05.480 --> 0:09:06.120 some earth moving. 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:08.360 I mean, there's a lot more there's a lot more 0:09:08.400 --> 0:09:09.080 moving parts. 0:09:09.120 --> 0:09:12.280 But certainly, I think as time went on, you know, 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:17.240 as our ability to manipulate the landscape increased, continually, you know, 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:20.400 our ability to do so affordably increased. You saw a 0:09:20.480 --> 0:09:25.240 sort of less regard for site stuitability for a time period, 0:09:25.280 --> 0:09:28.480 I would say, and more of a more of a 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:30.960 focus on we want the golf course here, because we're 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:31.840 doing a development. 0:09:31.960 --> 0:09:33.280 We can fix whatever. 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:37.400 There's no landscape that we can't fix and turn it 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:41.560 into a golf course, regardless of you know, what's naturally there, 0:09:41.600 --> 0:09:45.440 whether it's a swamp, whether it's rock, whether it's super hilly. 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:49.120 And I think when you as we've seen down the road, 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:53.120 while there are examples of really exceptional courses that have 0:09:53.160 --> 0:09:56.920 been built on really difficult sites and challenging sites, there 0:09:56.960 --> 0:10:00.280 are some limits to that, and certainly the sk of 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:02.360 the architect is going to be a big, a big 0:10:02.400 --> 0:10:04.839 factor in that. But there are some things that are 0:10:04.880 --> 0:10:07.640 just really really difficult to overcome. And there's sort of 0:10:07.679 --> 0:10:12.120 only so much that you the possibility exists to manufacture 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:15.000 a golf course from just about anything. But you know, 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:18.040 there's only so many possibilities that are within a person's 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:22.320 own mind for what you can manufacture versus what's suggested 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:24.920 to you by the natural landscape. Well, if the natural 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:28.600 landscape is unsuitable for what you're trying to do. Those 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:31.880 suggestions and those cues from the landscape aren't going to 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:34.960 be there, and so you often get, you know, I 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:37.920 think a formulaic result where it's just Okay, we're just 0:10:38.000 --> 0:10:41.720 going to we're doing this again, regardless of what's there. 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:45.400 That's well put. And it links back to the conversation 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:48.240 that I had for the first part of the School 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:51.559 of Golf Architecture series with Blake Conan, where one of 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:55.600 the ideas that we settled on was that taking your 0:10:55.679 --> 0:10:59.240 cues from the place of the golf course tends to 0:10:59.320 --> 0:11:02.880 lead to a lot more uniqueness in the end than 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:06.600 trying to impose your own vision on a piece of land, 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:11.320 simply because mother nature tends to be more creative and 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:16.120 more resourceful in its creativity than man does. 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:19.240 Yeah, and just more accidental. I mean, you know, I 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:22.400 think it's just that that was something that struck me 0:11:22.480 --> 0:11:25.680 about studying, you know, spending a lot of time studying 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:28.160 links golf courses, is that there was an awful lot 0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:31.160 of features out there that are just there because they're there, 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:33.400 and there's not really you know, there's not really a 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:36.480 rhyme or reason or necessarily like a structure to it, 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:39.800 but that that sort of element of randomness and the 0:11:40.000 --> 0:11:44.360 willingness slash inability to modify that, but the willingness to 0:11:44.400 --> 0:11:47.800 embrace it and the inability to wipe it away, I 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:50.600 think really created this sort of you've heard the term 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:53.720 infinite variety, Well, those courses have it because there's just 0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:57.800 so much going on in terms of topography, in terms 0:11:57.840 --> 0:12:01.600 of hazard location, the nature of the hazards, especially in 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:03.320 the older days, when you see what some of those 0:12:03.320 --> 0:12:06.679 hazards look like, you know, when they'd have little sections 0:12:06.760 --> 0:12:09.720 revetted trying to support a bunker that had been eroding, 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:12.240 but the rest of it was kind of wild. You 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:16.200 had that full range of variety in almost every shot, 0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:19.680 and so stance and lie and everything were always going 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:22.040 to be different every time that you played a hole, 0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:24.800 which you know was going to be a factor and 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:27.200 really kind of kept those designs fresh. And when you 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:29.840 play those courses again and again and again. And I've 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:32.160 been fortunate to spend a lot of time on a 0:12:32.200 --> 0:12:34.600 few really great lengths courses and play them a lot 0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:36.880 in a lot of different conditions, and part of what 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:39.240 keeps them so interesting is that the ground is so 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:42.679 irregular that even if you hit the ball the same 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:45.559 all the time, which I definitely don't, you're still never 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:47.320 going to end up in exactly. 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:47.640 The same spot. 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:49.920 In an uphill lie versus a downhill lie is going 0:12:49.960 --> 0:12:51.320 to change how you're going to be able to play 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:53.600 the hole, and it's going to bring different things into play, 0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:58.040 and so it really is always different, and that element 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:01.920 of randomness is just really hard to build. And Mother 0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:05.040 nature is just really good at leaving these sort of 0:13:05.160 --> 0:13:07.640 I think Bob Ross call them these happy little accidents. 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:09.880 I mean, that's kind of the features that you find 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:12.600 in nature that you can kind of work from that 0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:15.120 just are really hard to pull out of your own 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:16.720 mind and just create. 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:20.560 I love that we've gotten Bob ross mantra in here. 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:27.560 That's perfect. So let's get really basic here. What are 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:34.680 the fundamental advantages of designing golf courses on Link's land. 0:13:35.640 --> 0:13:39.239 I mean, I think the first big one is drainage 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:42.280 and the fact that you know, in most cases, the 0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:45.480 soils drain really really well. And that's not to say 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:49.040 that every Link site doesn't have its wet spots that 0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:52.600 they don't need drainage installed. They do certainly in sort 0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:55.800 of the modern context where people are looking for pretty 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:59.560 consistent performance. But you know, drainage allows you to be 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:03.480 a lot more free with what the landscape offers because 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:06.600 you don't need to worry about draining every little wrinkle 0:14:06.640 --> 0:14:09.800 and pocket or the other side of that is grading 0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:14.080 everything out so that everything surface flows smoothly from across 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:17.680 a hole into a basin whatever it might be, which 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:20.840 very quickly kind of gives a landscape a pretty, you know, 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:23.520 a manipulated look to it. When you need to start 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:26.280 doing all that kind of grating, it's hard to make 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:28.840 it look like you never did anything. 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:31.400 So being able to kind of take. 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:34.520 The site as it is because of that drainage is 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:38.120 really beneficial. The fact that the sites just tend to 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:41.240 be you know, wrinkled and more imperfect. I mean, that's 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:44.440 just the nature of sandy soils and how they're deposited 0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:47.240 is that they aren't typically just smooth. 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:48.400 It's they're going. 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:51.480 To have arrived where they are, either by wind action 0:14:51.720 --> 0:14:55.200 or by flooding, or by glacial deposition, whatever it is. 0:14:55.760 --> 0:14:59.640 They tend to just kind of arrive in an inconsistent fashion, 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:02.160 which gives you that sort of unique you know, like 0:15:02.200 --> 0:15:05.400 we talked about those unique irregular features that you just 0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:08.840 don't often find in a lot of other places, and 0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:12.080 you can leave them alone because you don't necessarily. 0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:13.920 Need to worry about the drainage at every little. 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:16.120 Hollow kind of becoming a bird bath like you might 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:19.080 on heavier soil, where you're going to have the grass 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:19.640 isn't going to. 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:22.120 Perform well in every little low spot, whatever it might be. 0:15:23.280 --> 0:15:26.640 Then obviously, the benefit of drainage beyond the type of 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:30.680 shapes that you're able to create and leave alone. Another 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:35.480 big benefit is just you know, firmer, bouncier better golf 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:39.880 conditions during more of the year as a result, and 0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:43.160 then the options that opens up in terms of you know, well, 0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:45.960 now running shots are more practical. I mean, if you 0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:50.440 have really soft conditions, even if you have open approaches 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:54.120 and all of these opportunities for different types of shots, 0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:57.000 if the conditions don't support it, then the shots don't 0:15:57.040 --> 0:15:59.680 make sense and people don't play them, I mean unless 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:00.440 they're just. 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:01.400 Trying to have fun with it. 0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:04.120 But I mean that's the beauty of sort of the 0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:06.600 firmness that you find on links, courses and so forth, 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:08.800 is that you know you're not playing bump and run 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:11.280 shots just as some sort of a you know, an 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:14.320 aesthetic desire to play golf like the olden days, like 0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:18.280 it is actually necessary and a more effective way of 0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:21.280 getting close to the hole because the ground is firm, 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:23.480 because the hole is playing down wind, whatever it is, 0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:27.880 they become a necessary aspect of the game as opposed 0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:30.880 to sort of a novelty, and really, firmness is what 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:33.320 makes that happen. Firmness and wind is what really makes 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:33.840 that happen. 0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:37.440 And let's dig into that a little bit. The mixture 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:42.600 of contour, firmness and wind seems to be so central 0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:45.320 in your mind to compelling golf. You know, your buck 0:16:45.400 --> 0:16:49.920 sand and golf keeps returning to those ideas contour, firmness 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:54.160 and wind, and so aside from making bump and run 0:16:54.160 --> 0:16:57.480 shots more available, or perhaps as a result of making 0:16:57.520 --> 0:17:00.720 bump and run shots more available, what do the factors 0:17:00.760 --> 0:17:06.240 of contour, firmness and wind bring to golf architecture? How 0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:09.360 do they make the golf courses different and in your 0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:11.879 mind more interesting, more fun to play? 0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:15.479 I mean, I think that that variety is kind of 0:17:15.520 --> 0:17:19.760 the underpinning answer to that question. There's just more ways 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:23.240 to play the shots and more reasons to play the 0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:27.440 same basic shot differently. I mean, like we talked about earlier, 0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:31.160 even from the same basic location in a Links fairway, 0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:33.800 you can have very different lies. And if you've got 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:38.160 the combination of an uphill lie into the wind, that's 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:40.960 really going to change the thought process behind that shot 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:44.280 versus a flat lie with the wind behind or a 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:46.560 flat lie with no wind. They're going to be very 0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:50.840 different kind of shots and just they get your thinking differently, which, 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:53.399 as you know, the more that you're thinking in golf, 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:57.080 the tougher the game becomes. So you have that changeability 0:17:57.119 --> 0:17:58.800 of you know, the wind is not always going to 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:01.199 be the same intensity, the wind is not always going 0:18:01.240 --> 0:18:02.359 to come from the same direction. 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:04.320 When you get enough. 0:18:04.119 --> 0:18:06.560 Contour happening at a place like you find on a 0:18:06.560 --> 0:18:09.480 Links course, that's going to change every time that you're 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:13.639 experiencing it. And then firmness is what, you know, really 0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:17.160 what drives that. And then the sort of inevitable movement 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:21.080 of your ball, either through the air or after impact 0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:23.639 as a result of the wind or as a result 0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:26.879 of the contour is going to be very very different, 0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:30.920 a very different thought process to kind of analyze than 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:34.560 the kind of yardage golf that you find to be 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:37.840 much more common, certainly in most of the United States 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:41.840 and in most inland sites. Once you have to really 0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:44.359 start to think about the rollout of the ball after 0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:48.480 it lands, then you find yourself really studying a lot 0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:51.760 more of the contours because they're relevant if you're hitting 0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:52.760 to a yardage. 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:54.080 In the middle of the green or wherever it might be, 0:18:54.880 --> 0:18:57.040 the contouring that's in the approach and around the green 0:18:57.080 --> 0:18:57.600 and so forth. 0:18:57.640 --> 0:19:01.119 I mean, you might be aware of it from a 0:19:01.160 --> 0:19:04.520 visual standpoint, or something might look cool or whatever it is, 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:06.960 but if it's not really a factor in the shot, 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:09.119 it's not going to weigh into your mind so much. 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:11.760 I mean, it's kind of window dressing as you're hitting 0:19:11.760 --> 0:19:14.120 over it, you know, at least in your mind's eye. 0:19:14.160 --> 0:19:16.600 As far as the plan shot, I mean, whether you 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:19.000 end up, you know, executing the shot that you plan 0:19:19.119 --> 0:19:21.680 is obviously a different story. But it's not a part 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:23.600 of the thought process in the same way that it 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:27.280 is on links courses, on heathling courses, on these sort 0:19:27.280 --> 0:19:31.000 of sandy windy firm sites. And that's not to say 0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:34.880 that you know, links courses can place soft I mean, 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:37.960 people shouldn't have the illusion that links courses or heathling 0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:41.240 courses are always toasty firm. I mean, if it rains 0:19:41.280 --> 0:19:44.880 and rains and rains, those courses play soft. But even 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:47.640 that is sort of on the continuum of it's interesting 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:49.320 to play, you know, one of those. 0:19:49.160 --> 0:19:51.720 Courses when you can actually hit and hold shots on 0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:52.280 the greens. 0:19:52.359 --> 0:19:53.840 I mean, you wouldn't want to do it all the time, 0:19:53.920 --> 0:19:56.720 but in the context of playing a course that's often firm, 0:19:57.320 --> 0:19:59.280 to play it soft once in a while, it's kind 0:19:59.280 --> 0:20:02.080 of interesting to see, like, wow, this is really these 0:20:02.080 --> 0:20:04.879 shots are all really really different than what I'm used to. 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:10.200 So, given these playing dynamics, what kinds of golf course 0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:14.480 designs became native to the Link's land. So we've already 0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:18.320 talked about like the infinite variety of natural courses on 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:22.800 suitable sites, right, but what kinds of strategic traits did 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:26.119 the holes take on as they evolved out of this 0:20:26.720 --> 0:20:27.919 sandy coastal terrain. 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:28.960 And there's a. 0:20:28.920 --> 0:20:31.399 Couple of things that I think are sort of, you know, 0:20:31.480 --> 0:20:35.760 while not absolutely uniform, that I think are consistent among 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:39.960 the sort of best examples of links golf. And I 0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:42.040 think obviously you know, the one that jumps out to 0:20:42.080 --> 0:20:44.280 a lot of people's wit, and I think that was 0:20:44.400 --> 0:20:47.840 very much, you know, a direct consequence of the environment 0:20:47.840 --> 0:20:52.080 in which they're playing. You're talking about very variable winds 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:54.800 in terms of strength and in terms of direction. Anybody 0:20:54.800 --> 0:20:56.640 that spent a lot of time over there knows that 0:20:57.320 --> 0:20:59.560 the wind seems to come from, you know, whatever they 0:20:59.560 --> 0:21:04.440 call for. It changes with regularity, and so you need 0:21:04.480 --> 0:21:08.280 to have that flexibility built into that just to accommodate 0:21:08.600 --> 0:21:12.800 that kind of constantly changing and pretty impactful dynamic. On 0:21:12.840 --> 0:21:16.840 most links courses. The other aspect is that firm ground factor. 0:21:16.880 --> 0:21:19.280 I mean, the ball runs out a lot more on 0:21:19.359 --> 0:21:22.439 those courses, and so shots that are offline are going 0:21:22.480 --> 0:21:25.879 to travel further offline, and that can be desirable, but 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:28.680 at the same time, you know, you don't want everything 0:21:29.040 --> 0:21:32.680 running off into some sort of a heavy rough type situation. 0:21:32.880 --> 0:21:35.160 So I think you see the width kind of built 0:21:35.160 --> 0:21:39.080 into things on account of those factors. Another thing that 0:21:39.160 --> 0:21:42.000 you'll see is open approaches to a lot of the greens. 0:21:42.119 --> 0:21:45.600 You're not going to see a ton of you know, 0:21:45.760 --> 0:21:50.320 totally closed off green surrounds that really require the aerial shot. 0:21:50.480 --> 0:21:54.080