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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob left Such Podcast.

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Speaker 1: My guest today is the one and only David Bromberg. David,

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Speaker 1: you're having what is billed as your final concert April

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Speaker 1: tenth at the Beacon. How and why is it your

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Speaker 1: final show?

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm seventy eight, and there's a lot of parts

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Speaker 2: about touring that are hard on this seventy eight year

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Speaker 2: old body, and so I felt I kind of had

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Speaker 2: to stop. But you know, I've always said I'm not

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Speaker 2: the one and only David Bromberg. There were seven David

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Speaker 2: Brombergs before me. You know. You know, in this business,

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Speaker 2: how do you get in the business? You buy your

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Speaker 2: way in. And I didn't have a lot of money,

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Speaker 2: so all I could buy was David Bramberg. And now

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Speaker 2: that I've had it for a while, it's not worth

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Speaker 2: anything anymore. I couldn't sell it.

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Speaker 1: Ah, Okay, are you known for your sense of humor?

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Speaker 1: We've never talked before.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I'm sorry. I don't know if I'm known from

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Speaker 2: I don't know if I'm known at all. I think

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Speaker 2: on the whole I've remained anonymous.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't say that's the case, because I certainly remember

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Speaker 1: when your first album came out in Columbia with the

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Speaker 1: white cover, etc. Let's get back to the show, but

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Speaker 1: I want to talk specifically about you essentially parking your

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Speaker 1: career to get into the violin business. Tell me about

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Speaker 1: that decision.

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Speaker 2: Well, I got burnt out. But now bear in mind

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Speaker 2: I never said I was smart, and I didn't figure

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Speaker 2: it was burnout. I thought I could never burn out.

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Speaker 2: I thought maybe I was really wrong and that I

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Speaker 2: shouldn't be doing it at all. I didn't want to

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Speaker 2: be one of these guys who drags himself on stage

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Speaker 2: and does a bad impression of what he remembers he

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Speaker 2: used to do. And I was burnt out. Really, if

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Speaker 2: I'd taken a break for six or nine months and

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Speaker 2: come back, it would have been fine. I took twenty

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Speaker 2: two years instead because I found a different life for myself.

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Speaker 1: Okay, but very specifically, how did you come to the conclusion,

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Speaker 1: Because this is a business that most people never stop,

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Speaker 1: never give up.

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Speaker 2: How did I come to the conclusion. Well, I don't

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Speaker 2: know how to answer that. It manifested itself. What are

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Speaker 2: you doing doing this if it doesn't feed whatever it

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Speaker 2: fed before? I was doing a show first, I should

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Speaker 2: explain to you that I've never had a set list.

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Speaker 2: I just think of the tune I want to play,

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Speaker 2: and I play it. And I was doing a show

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Speaker 2: in New Jersey and I couldn't think of anything I

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Speaker 2: wanted to play. And the truth is I didn't want

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Speaker 2: to play. And when I confronted that, it told me

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Speaker 2: I should be stopping.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you had that gig in New Jersey. In retrospect,

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Speaker 1: did you have hints this was going to happen or

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Speaker 1: was it like this just this one show hit you.

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Speaker 2: I didn't really have hints, but I should let you

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Speaker 2: know that I'm not a very observant human, and things

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Speaker 2: that would point certain conclusions out to other people I

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Speaker 2: blithely let fly by. So I can't recall any other hints.

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Speaker 1: Tell me more about my being an observing person.

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Speaker 2: Oh boy, people will will put one and one together

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Speaker 2: and get two, and I don't see one or one.

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Speaker 2: It's difficult to explain beyond that.

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Speaker 1: Well, is this something that has haunted you your whole

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Speaker 1: life or these just on big decisions.

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Speaker 2: No, this is something that's haunted me my whole life.

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Speaker 2: And I have a therapist, so I'm not going to

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Speaker 2: get into it with you.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you're a therapist. Have you always been in therapy

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Speaker 1: or is that something recent?

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Speaker 2: I was in therapy when I lived in Chicago, and

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Speaker 2: then I moved to Wilmington, Delaware, and I was only

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Speaker 2: for the briefest period found a therapist in Philadelphia, but

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Speaker 2: wasn't going anywhere, and so recently I've started again. So

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Speaker 2: there's been a basically a twenty year twenty two year

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Speaker 2: gap between me having any serious therapy.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's very hard as someone who's in therapy for

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Speaker 1: a long time, and to the state, it's very hard

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Speaker 1: to find a good therapist. And the more you know,

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Speaker 1: the harder it is. How'd you find one?

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Speaker 2: I had a friend who I trust, who has always

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Speaker 2: referred me to the best doctors, refer me to a

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Speaker 2: therapist who couldn't take me on, but recommended another therapist.

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Speaker 2: And I called that therapist and she's really good.

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Speaker 1: And is there any issue of medication?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I have to find a psychiatrist who will prescribe,

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Speaker 2: because I've been taking antidepressant drugs now for a very

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Speaker 2: long time, and I'm not sure that's the right thing,

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Speaker 2: because depression really jumped on me recently.

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Speaker 1: Really, can you tell me more about that. No, okay,

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Speaker 1: so was this something? You know? It's funny because Bruce

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Speaker 1: Springsteen mentioned I believe in his book that he was

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Speaker 1: on antidepressants. And for someone I'm a little bit younger

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Speaker 1: than you, but not that much. I'm seventy and sixty

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Speaker 1: really fucked me up. And I just turned seventy recently.

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Speaker 1: And it's very disorienting because, like, when you're sixty, you

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Speaker 1: realize everything you've been told is basically bullshit, Like you

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Speaker 1: find out it you don't have to buy this serially,

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Speaker 1: you don't have to go to see that movie. If

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Speaker 1: it's good, you'll find out. And when you're seventy, you realize, now,

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Speaker 1: wait a second, what was important to begin with it?

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Speaker 1: It is depressing.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I have a lot of remnants of a

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Speaker 2: rather peculiar childhood, and I think that's responsible for the therapy.

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Speaker 2: My father was a psychiatrist.

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Speaker 1: Really, they say that shrinks have the most screwed up kids.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think that may be true. I've heard it

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Speaker 2: said that doctors always resemble their specialty. That is that

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Speaker 2: pediatricians are kind of childish and you know like that.

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Speaker 2: But my dad, my dad became a psychiatrist for reasons

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Speaker 2: because he was raised his mother was a monster. A monster.

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Speaker 1: That's that's pretty definitive. Since she was your grandmother. Why

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Speaker 1: was she a monster?

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Speaker 2: Oh boy? My grandmother was the first ange knew of

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Speaker 2: the Yiddish theater in Europe because her father had the

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Speaker 2: first touring group that performed in Yiddish. So she performed

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Speaker 2: with Tomashevsky and all of Grace. As a matter of fact,

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Speaker 2: if the script called for infants, my father and Paul

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Speaker 2: Muni were the two who were used as children. So

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Speaker 2: she was you know, I really don't want to get

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Speaker 2: into bed mouthing my family. She was difficult. She thought

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Speaker 2: of herself and not much about other people.

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Speaker 1: Was it a result of her being a diva or

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Speaker 1: was it just her personality?

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Speaker 2: Beats me?

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Speaker 1: Okay, So your mother's parents obviously Yiddish theater in Europe.

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Speaker 1: When and how did they get to America.

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Speaker 2: They got to America in the early part of the

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Speaker 2: twentieth century, so my father was beginning to grow the

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Speaker 2: folks being decided that my grandmother was too old to

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Speaker 2: be an ingreenoue, so she gave it up entirely. She

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Speaker 2: didn't want to be anything else she was the Ingau

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Speaker 2: and my folks came with their parents.

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Speaker 1: So both of your parents were, as we say, born

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Speaker 1: in the Old Country.

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Speaker 2: Not my mom. My mom was actually born in the

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Speaker 2: Old Country Brooklyn, Okay.

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Speaker 1: So how did your parents meet?

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Speaker 2: I believe they met because my maternal grandfather was. He

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Speaker 2: was a very interesting man. He was a poet and

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Speaker 2: a businessman, a thoroughly honest socialist, and a politician, and

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Speaker 2: he was extremely popular. Part of it, I think is

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Speaker 2: due to the fact that he was painfully honest. I mean,

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Speaker 2: he was a socialist. And when he died, he left

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Speaker 2: his wife penniless because if somebody needed money and he

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Speaker 2: had it, he'd give it. So he basically gave away everything.

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Speaker 2: But he was a great man. As a matter of fact,

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Speaker 2: his funeral was to this day the biggest in the

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Speaker 2: history of New York City. If you read any book

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Speaker 2: about Firolo laguardiad always mentions him, and usually will mention

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Speaker 2: that that funeral, which went through all five boroughs, and

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Speaker 2: the police report was one hundred thousand people. And what

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Speaker 2: was his name, borrough Charni Vladik.

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Speaker 1: Okay. So then you're so my father is living where

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Speaker 1: when he meets your mother.

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Speaker 2: He's living in the States, I mean in Brooklyn. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I think so. Uh. And he was one of many

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Speaker 2: people who really admired Vladik my maternity and that's how

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Speaker 2: he and my mom met.

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Speaker 1: Okay, And how many kids in the family.

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Speaker 2: In which family?

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Speaker 1: In your family? Siblings? Three?

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Speaker 2: I have two. I have a brother and a sister.

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Speaker 1: And where are you in the hierarchy middle as am?

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Speaker 1: I I heard that coming? Okay, So what are your what?

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Speaker 1: What do your brother and sister do?

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Speaker 2: What?

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Speaker 1: How to you know? What the path did they end

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Speaker 1: up taking.

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Speaker 2: My brother is now retired, but he was a community

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Speaker 2: a community service guy. I mean like he had the

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Speaker 2: same job more or less as Obama. He served the

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Speaker 2: various communities. And my sister was an artist, but she

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Speaker 2: became a scientist through an Listen, nothing in my family

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Speaker 2: really goes straight ahead. There's just funny stuff. She was

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Speaker 2: at a cocktail party and she was talking with somebody

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Speaker 2: and she started to talk about memory. And there was

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Speaker 2: another thing that she was because there were two topics

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Speaker 2: she loved, and my father got the Scientific American and

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Speaker 2: she would read it to find out her favorite topics.

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Speaker 2: So she was talking to this woman, and she knew

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Speaker 2: a fantastic amount about a couple of subjects and nothing

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Speaker 2: about the rest of science. So this woman was the

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Speaker 2: director of She was the chief of the science department

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Speaker 2: at the university, which I don't think my sister knew

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Speaker 2: and gave her I don't know what it's called. So

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Speaker 2: she went to university and became a scientist. These days,

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Speaker 2: she basically translates from English to English from English written

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Speaker 2: by people for whom English is the second language, and

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Speaker 2: so she translates scientific papers from English to English.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and you grew up in Philadelphia. How the family

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Speaker 1: get from Brooklyn to Philadelphia.

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Speaker 2: I didn't grow up in Philadelphia. I was born in

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Speaker 2: a hospital in Philly. My dad was in the Navy,

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Speaker 2: but when he got out of the Navy, we moved

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Speaker 2: to Queens. And when I was four years old, the

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Speaker 2: family moved from Queens to Tarrytown, New York. And that's

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Speaker 2: basically where I was raised.

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Speaker 1: I remember going to a Chinese restaurant in Terrytown. I

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Speaker 1: can't remember the name. My parents. We go back and

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Speaker 1: forth to New York. Okay, so you're growing up. All

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Speaker 1: the hopes and dreams are in the older sibling. You're

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Speaker 1: going to school. Good student, bad student.

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Speaker 2: I was a fairly good student. I did well, not

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Speaker 2: as well as my older brother, but I did well.

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Speaker 2: To give you the picture, my older brother went to Harvard.

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Speaker 2: I went to Columbia.

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Speaker 1: Where did your sister go? Since we're going this far.

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Speaker 2: My sister went to a whole bunch of art schools,

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Speaker 2: one after another.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so you're growing up, You're doing well in school,

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Speaker 1: you have friends, Do you play sports or your nerd?

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Speaker 1: What kind of kid are you?

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Speaker 2: I was a pretty solitary kid. When I got to

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Speaker 2: be thirteen, music took over my life. I learned to

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Speaker 2: play when I got the measles when I was thirteen,

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Speaker 2: so I learned to play lying on my back. I

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Speaker 2: borrowed one of my brother's guitars and one of his books.

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Speaker 2: I could already read music. I had studied flute since

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Speaker 2: I was about eight, so teaching myself from the book

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Speaker 2: was fairly easy. And as I say, music took over.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So in a Jewish family, usually kids started taking

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Speaker 1: piano lessons. I remember taking piano lessons at age six.

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Speaker 1: You never took piano lessons, you just started with the flute.

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Speaker 2: I won't say I never took piano lessons. I took

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Speaker 2: a few, but I remember my mom asking me what

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Speaker 2: would you like to play in For some reason, I

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Speaker 2: said flute, and so that's where I went. I think

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Speaker 2: I took the piano lessons after the flute lessons.

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Speaker 1: Actually, and you'd learn flute with a private teacher or

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Speaker 1: with yes in public okay, And you were taking flute

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Speaker 1: before you had this epiphany. Did you like playing flute?

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Speaker 1: Did you take to that?

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Speaker 2: I don't think I really took to it.

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Speaker 1: No, Okay, So you had measles. It's nineteen fifty eight.

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Speaker 1: Elvis has got, you know, some purchase on the world.

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Speaker 1: The folk boom is sort of happening, but really booms

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Speaker 1: sort of a little bit later in the early sixties.

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Speaker 1: You're there picking up the guitar. What are you playing?

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Speaker 2: I was playing whatever was on the radio. And at

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Speaker 2: that time, or shortly after, the folks Scare happened, and

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Speaker 2: so I found a record in my parents' collection. I

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Speaker 2: never saw them listen to any of the music that

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Speaker 2: they had. They had about twenty records, and one of

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Speaker 2: them was the Weavers at Carnegie Hall, which I just loved,

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Speaker 2: and so I got involved with the folk scare, which

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Speaker 2: was parallel to the other scare.

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Speaker 1: Okay, now you're talking about being able to read music.

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Speaker 1: Those of us have come a little bit later than

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Speaker 1: you were really getting into the guitar because of the

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Speaker 1: Beatles were playing chords. So at that particular point in time,

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Speaker 1: you were playing the notes, you were playing the leads.

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Speaker 2: No, at that particularly, I started out learning the chords too,

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Speaker 2: and I could figure out the chords for anything on

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Speaker 2: the radio at the time, so I was doing that.

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Speaker 2: You know, the rock and roll tunes, the folk tunes,

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Speaker 2: whatever it was, they were all pretty easy to figure out.

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Speaker 1: So this came naturally.

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Speaker 2: I think I was able to concentrate and teach myself.

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Speaker 2: I actually know somebody to whom I believe music came naturally.

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Speaker 2: I had to work hard for everything.

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Speaker 1: Well, let me put it a different way. I remember

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Speaker 1: playing guitars and my friend said, okay, now we're going

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Speaker 1: to change key. I remember telling myself, I'm out. This

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Speaker 1: is a step beyond me. I could learn how to

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Speaker 1: do that, but I don't have that facility. Are you

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Speaker 1: saying that every hurdle you had to work to go.

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Speaker 2: Through, Yeah, pretty much. I think that's true. And it's

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Speaker 2: been pointed out to me that I play music from

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Speaker 2: a variety of genres, which I think is true. My

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Speaker 2: records have all been salads. And the thing is, I

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Speaker 2: never heard anything played on the guitar that I didn't

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Speaker 2: want to play myself.

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Speaker 1: So can you tell me about your brother had a guitar.

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Speaker 2: My brother was studying classical guitar and he had a

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Speaker 2: couple of nylon string classic guitars.

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Speaker 1: Well, needless to say, you know, when you're starting out,

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Speaker 1: certainly picking out notes. Nylon string guitars, they're hard to

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Speaker 1: play with a wide neck. Usually the action, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's not an easy jump.

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Speaker 2: Well, the action was quite playable because he was taking

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Speaker 2: lessons and knew what he was doing, and wide neck

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Speaker 2: didn't scare me. I have rather large hands and I've

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Speaker 2: never had a problem with a wide neck.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so you're thirteen. Measles doesn't go on forever? The measles?

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Speaker 1: And where does that leave you musically?

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Speaker 2: Playing everything that's on the radio? And I started, I

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Speaker 2: started did taping things because I had a wolln Sock

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Speaker 2: tape recorder, and then I realized I never listened to

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Speaker 2: the tape, so I stopped that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, your parents had a wolen sack. I mean that

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Speaker 1: was not common in the house in the fifties.

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Speaker 2: Maybe it was a voice of music.

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Speaker 1: Well, whatever it was, how did you end up having

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Speaker 1: a tape recorder in the house? Who bought that?

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Speaker 2: I may have, but I can't remember. Maybe it was

297
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Speaker 2: a birthday president, I just don't recall.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so you're now playing everything on the radio. You're

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Speaker 1: doing this in your house. Do you start playing out

300
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Speaker 1: when you go to a friend's house, when you go

301
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Speaker 1: to summer camp? Do you have groups anything like that?

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Speaker 2: I started playing out a bit when I got old

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Speaker 2: enough to play in bars. I played in bars and

304
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Speaker 2: I played you know, the classics, Sophisticated Lady in Teeth

305
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Speaker 2: for two and all that. So that was one part

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Speaker 2: of it. And then I did go to camp and

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Speaker 2: played guitar there. I played guitar everywhere.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So how did you make the hurdle of playing

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Speaker 1: in bars playing for money? Did you say I want

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Speaker 1: to do this or I want to be recognized? What

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Speaker 1: was the driving cast there?

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Speaker 2: I started playing with some other people and and we

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Speaker 2: were looking for any kind of a job. So we

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Speaker 2: found a job in a bar where at first I

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Speaker 2: wasn't old enough, so I didn't do it. When I

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Speaker 2: was old enough, I could do it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you're saying playing the classics for those who don't know.

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Speaker 1: I mean, people have no idea how big the folks

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Speaker 1: scene was. It was even a you know, the hootiny

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Speaker 1: Andy on TV. Tell me about how the folks scene

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Speaker 1: burgeoned and then to what degree you got involved.

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Speaker 2: Well, wait a minute. When I said the classics, I

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Speaker 2: mean the jazz standards. That's what you're playing right in bars.

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Speaker 2: Wasn't really funny, I.

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Speaker 1: Understand, But ultimately you were talking about being infected by

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Speaker 1: the folk virus, and it seemed like you ultimately got

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Speaker 1: into that. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I used to go down to Washington Square on Sundays,

329
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Speaker 2: take a train into the city and go down there,

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Speaker 2: and people were playing together, and you know, I learned

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Speaker 2: from that experience. And from there I would sometimes wander

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Speaker 2: over to McDougall Street, where there were clubs, and I

333
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:43,879
Speaker 2: performed at at one of them. There's a book about

334
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:47,720
Speaker 2: the early Folks scene and a guy said, one time

335
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Speaker 2: a guy came in and applied to go on the stage,

336
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:52,840
Speaker 2: and you know, it was a hoot and any kind

337
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Speaker 2: of thing. Anybody could go on the stage. And he thought, oh,

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00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:57,959
Speaker 2: this is going to be terrible because the kid had

339
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:03,080
Speaker 2: a bad haircut and it looked weird. That was me,

340
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 2: and he said when he played it was you know,

341
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Speaker 2: very good.

342
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Speaker 1: Okay, you're a nice Jewish boy. Your father's a doctor.

343
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Speaker 1: Do you view music as a career or do you

344
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,119
Speaker 1: say you know you've been driven into you have to

345
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,840
Speaker 1: be a professional, go to college and this is just

346
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:21,679
Speaker 1: a sideshow.

347
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Speaker 2: I thought I had to go to college at first,

348
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:34,040
Speaker 2: but I kept playing and you said something I wanted

349
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:38,720
Speaker 2: to pick up on. But my memory is not so good.

350
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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you said, I'm a nice Jewish boy. I

351
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:48,400
Speaker 2: was born to Jewish parents, but it was really impossible

352
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:54,879
Speaker 2: for me to be religious. We would celebrate Passover and

353
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,720
Speaker 2: at every sator at some point my father would say

354
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Speaker 2: this God must be a very insecure creature to require

355
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:06,639
Speaker 2: so much constant praise. I mean, how am I gonna

356
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 2: go go worship with that?

357
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Speaker 1: Well, what I was referencing that that is certainly very interesting,

358
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 1: is the values as opposed to go in a shool

359
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 1: or barmitz for anything like that. You didn't have arms?

360
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Speaker 2: I did you?

361
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:26,159
Speaker 1: Did you did, okay.

362
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Speaker 2: I mean, my parents gave me a choice to have

363
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,960
Speaker 2: it or not, and I chose not and that was

364
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:37,639
Speaker 2: the wrong answer, so I had it. I actually didn't

365
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 2: have any choice, okay.

366
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Speaker 1: But usually in a Jewish family. I'm speaking from my

367
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:44,679
Speaker 1: own experience and observation.

368
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 2: You know.

369
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Speaker 1: I knew I was going to college before I went

370
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:50,679
Speaker 1: to any school, you know, and they say, you know,

371
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,159
Speaker 1: be a professional. And this was driven into before I

372
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,439
Speaker 1: could think for myself, is all I'm saying. And to

373
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 1: vere from that, my parents were not that supportive.

374
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:07,480
Speaker 2: Well. In my second year at Columbia, I had a

375
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 2: bit of a breakdown and took a leave of absence,

376
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 2: which I've never ended actually, So there I was not

377
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 2: in college anymore, and I was playing music and going down.

378
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:29,680
Speaker 1: To the village. How hard was it to drop out?

379
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 2: I went and did it the right way. I went

380
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:38,359
Speaker 2: to the dean's office and spoke to them, and he

381
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 2: sent me to the campus psychiatrist, and he recommended somebody

382
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 2: for me to see. So I dropped out and started

383
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:52,159
Speaker 2: seeing this psychiatrist. My father was very angry that I

384
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 2: hadn't asked him to recommend somebody, but you know, there

385
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 2: we go again.

386
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 1: How much as dropping out was college didn't work or

387
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,239
Speaker 1: I'm on this music path and I have to pursue it.

388
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 2: You know, I've never asked myself that question. I think

389
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 2: I couldn't handle college. I think that was the main thing,

390
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 2: but there had to have been some of the other

391
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 2: involved there. I don't think that human beings do things

392
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 2: for the black and white reasons all the time. I

393
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 2: know I certainly didn't.

394
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 1: So you stop going to school, what's your life like? Then?

395
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 1: You live in Indian City or you live in back

396
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 1: in Terrytown.

397
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 2: I was living in the city and I got offered

398
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 2: a gig. I'm a State Department tour, which turned into

399
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:53,680
Speaker 2: two State Department tours, and after that I got various

400
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 2: gigs here and there. I played rhythm guitar for a

401
00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:01,880
Speaker 2: Calypso singer. You know, I did whatever I could get.

402
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 1: Well, you know, there's this new movie about Blood, Sweat

403
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 1: and Tears talking about their State Department tour and the

404
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 1: deleterious effects thereof What were the State Department tours you

405
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 1: were on? The first one was in Southeast Asia. The

406
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 1: band was a band called the Phoenix Singers, and the

407
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 1: Phoenix Singers were an offshoot of the Bellefonte Singers, and

408
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 1: it was three very well operatically trained black musicians singing

409
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 1: folk music in shirts open to the navel, accompanied by

410
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:54,440
Speaker 1: two heterosexual Jewish guitar players. And I think the point

411
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 1: of it was to show them that in America, white

412
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:02,679
Speaker 1: people can work for black people. I wasn't required to

413
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,400
Speaker 1: figure out why we were there at the time. I

414
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 1: was just.

415
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 2: Required to play, and that's what I did.

416
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 1: Okay, So you've dropped out of college, you found some gigs.

417
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 1: Is there a dream or you just fumbling? Oh?

418
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 2: I think I was just fumbling. And I think I've

419
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 2: always just fumbled. I've never had a goal in music.

420
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 2: Except at the point where I could take a cab

421
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 2: home from a gig in New York City. I had

422
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 2: it made. Everything else was gravy. It was enough to

423
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 2: be able to take a cab home at three am

424
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 2: and not have to go into the subways and wait

425
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 2: and wait.

426
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 1: What kind of living situation did you have and how

427
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 1: are you paying the rent?

428
00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 2: I had a few different places, is usually one bedroom

429
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 2: at first shared with another musician. I had a place

430
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 2: on a six floor walk up on McDougall Street, in

431
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 2: a tiny, little place, which I shared with another musician,

432
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 2: and unbelievably small, even smaller than the Paris apartment. Paris

433
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 2: apartments are smaller than New.

434
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 1: York And were your pearents financially supportive? It all?

435
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 2: They were? My parents were very supportive financially. I tried

436
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 2: not to ask, but they really helped me through that period.

437
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 2: I remember being on the subway, across the aisle from

438
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 2: a woman with a bag full of groceries and being

439
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 2: just that close to asking her if I could have

440
00:29:55,600 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 2: something from there, because food was hard to come by, and.

441
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 1: I would, Now, it's the right And now it's the

442
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 1: early sixties and the folk boom is booming and in

443
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 1: people are coming to New York City to participate. Where

444
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 1: were you? Then?

445
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 2: I found my way back to the village and in

446
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 2: this apartment I was describing on McDougall Street, and I

447
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 2: eventually got a gig at the gas Light, which is

448
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 2: also on McDougal Street, to block over from my apartment,

449
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 2: and I was the opening act for everybody for fifty

450
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 2: bucks a week, and that was a wonderful period. I

451
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 2: got to play with some incredible artists on the same

452
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 2: bill with and sometimes on the same stage. You know,

453
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 2: sometimes I would get to play with some of those people.

454
00:30:58,280 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 1: And some of those people were.

455
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 2: Skip James Wow, Don Reno and Bill Harrell, Doc Watson.

456
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 2: There were all kinds of people whose records I loved.

457
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 1: Now you're playing out to what degree? Are you as

458
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 1: student of the instrument and going home and playing in

459
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 1: your apartment? I mean, are you really working hard? You say, well, no,

460
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 1: I play at the gig and I might work out

461
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 1: a little bit at home. Are you spending hours practicing

462
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 1: at home too?

463
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 2: You know? I spent hours practicing at home. And when

464
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 2: I was going to Columbia, I wandered down to the

465
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 2: village one afternoon and I passed a place that at

466
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 2: the time was called the dragons Den, and there was

467
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 2: a sandwich sign outside that said Reverend Gary Davis here

468
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 2: this afternoon. So I paid my money and went in.

469
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 2: I had heard I actually had a record that had

470
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 2: one side of the Reverend. In the other side was

471
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 2: Pink Anderson, who was a singer who would draw crowds

472
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 2: for medicine shows anyhow, So they were both basically street singers.

473
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 2: And so I went in and I listened, and it

474
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 2: was the Reverend. It was incredible He was one of

475
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 2: the great guitar players, one of the greatest I've ever seen.

476
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 2: And he was also I don't think people mentioned this enough,

477
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 2: he was also a fantastic singer. He was really really good.

478
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 2: And after this set I approached him and asked if

479
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 2: I could take lessons from him, and he said, yes,

480
00:32:55,680 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 2: five dollars, bring the money, honey. That was the reverend.

481
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 2: That was Reverend Gary Davis.

482
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 1: And how long did you take lessons?

483
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 2: A few years? Learning to play his tunes the way

484
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 2: he played them. I tried, what would a lesson be like? Well,

485
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 2: first of all, it would usually last the whole day,

486
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 2: and his wife would make lunch at some point, and

487
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 2: he was extremely patient man, and so he would play

488
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 2: something and I would try and copy it and he

489
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:42,959
Speaker 2: would correct me. But he was a great teacher, and

490
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 2: he was very very patient, but he'd also he'd also

491
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 2: screw around with you. I remember one lesson he was

492
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 2: teaching me. The song called I'll Be all Right, which

493
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 2: is the song from which We Overcome, was taken same melody,

494
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 2: and at one point he played a chord which I

495
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,320
Speaker 2: didn't recognize, and I said, what's that chord? He said,

496
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 2: this isn't E ninth. I said, what wasn't he ninth?

497
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 2: He said, this isn't e ninth? Oh okay. So I

498
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 2: went home and I learned and practiced. In the next week,

499
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 2: I came back and I played it for him, and

500
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 2: he stopped me. He said, what cord are you playing there?

501
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 2: I said, in E ninth? He said, wasn't he ninth? Well,

502
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 2: this isn't e ninth. No, it's a B minor. And

503
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,319
Speaker 2: then anytime he knew I was there and he was

504
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:41,239
Speaker 2: playing that tune, it would be a B minor, but

505
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:44,319
Speaker 2: it could also be an E ninth. I mean, there's

506
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 2: only one note difference, and it's not a sharp contrast.

507
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 1: And how did the lessons? How did you stop taking

508
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 1: lessons with him?

509
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 2: See, at one point I got promoted to where I

510
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 2: wasn't paying him for the lessons, but I was taking

511
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,799
Speaker 2: him to his gigs. And that was very important in

512
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 2: my life because we went to a lot of churches,

513
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:21,240
Speaker 2: and I discovered that I was never as welcome anywhere

514
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 2: else as I was in the church as he brought

515
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 2: me to. And so that made me curious, and I

516
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 2: started occasionally going to other churches, and I learned a

517
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,319
Speaker 2: lot about guitar playing from the other churches where there

518
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 2: were no guitar played. What I learned was, well, I'll

519
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 2: give you an example of what I learned. If you

520
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:48,280
Speaker 2: think of BB King's playing, and I was playing single

521
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 2: note things at this time, as well as the reverence things.

522
00:35:55,040 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 2: BB King's choice of notes is his own, but his

523
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 2: phrasing is that of a preacher. And it was like

524
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 2: a light going off when I realized that, you know,

525
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 2: BB plays with a lot of rests, and arrest is

526
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:22,959
Speaker 2: a musical note, and so I got it. The thing

527
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 2: about those pauses is that when the preachers would preach,

528
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 2: sometimes they would sometimes they would stop, and everybody would

529
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 2: want to hear what he would say next, how he

530
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 2: would finish the sentence. And that's a great thing for

531
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 2: public speaking, but it's also great for playing blues guitar.

532
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 1: Okay, you're taking these lessons. Meanwhile, Dave van Rock is

533
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 1: playing Dylan comes to Town. Were you integrated in that

534
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,479
Speaker 1: scene or was that separate from you?

535
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 2: You've got the wrong timeframe. That was before I moved

536
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 2: down to the village. I did meet and get to

537
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:23,280
Speaker 2: know Dave, and I did something that I didn't realize

538
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 2: was so good but it was really good. I was

539
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 2: in the village and there was a kid showed up

540
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 2: playing dulcimer, which I never considered an instrument, and he

541
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:40,920
Speaker 2: had a really great song called Fairfax County and I

542
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 2: heard that song and it's a ballad. Now, Da von

543
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 2: Rock is usually known for his hoarse voice and his

544
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 2: kind of bluff performance, but when he does a ballot

545
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 2: it's tremendous, so I knew this was This tune was

546
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:01,840
Speaker 2: for Davon Rock. So I took the kid with me

547
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:05,280
Speaker 2: until I could find Van Rock. We wounded her around

548
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 2: the village. We found him backstage at the bottom line.

549
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 2: It was Tom Paxton's gig and he was visiting Pakistan.

550
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:18,400
Speaker 2: They we were old friends, and I introduced them David,

551
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 2: here's David, David, Here's David. And I left and I

552
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 2: never saw Dave von Rock again. The next time I

553
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 2: ran into David Massingill, who wrote the song, was at

554
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:38,720
Speaker 2: a memorial for ven Rock, and Massingle said that after

555
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 2: that night when I introduced them, they were always together.

556
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,959
Speaker 2: He would drive him, he would sometimes be the opening act.

557
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 2: They were road companions, so that was a good thing

558
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 2: I did.

559
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,240
Speaker 1: Okay, since you set the timeframe that you're a little

560
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 1: after sixty two, etc. In the folk Boom. To what

561
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 1: degree were you aware of it? And to what degree

562
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 1: did you say, I want to be into this, or

563
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 1: maybe I'm too late, or I want to know these people.

564
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 2: Well, you know, this is another example of me not

565
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:29,400
Speaker 2: putting two and two together. Necessarily. You see a whole

566
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 2: thing and you wonder how I was going to integrate

567
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 2: myself into it. I never thought of that. All I

568
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 2: thought of is where can I get a job and

569
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:46,120
Speaker 2: how can I do it well. I sometimes get asked,

570
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:48,840
Speaker 2: you know, I've done a lot of recording sessions with

571
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 2: some very famous people, and I've been asked, was it

572
00:39:54,760 --> 00:40:00,120
Speaker 2: like doing a recording session with Bob Dylan? I said, well,

573
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:05,800
Speaker 2: the the important words there are recording session. It's a job,

574
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:10,319
Speaker 2: and I concentrate on doing my job. I don't let

575
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 2: you know I was a huge Stone fan, but I

576
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 2: wouldn't be starstruck.

577
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 1: I had a job to do. Okay, how much was

578
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,360
Speaker 1: doing the job properly and how much was getting paid?

579
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 2: Well, if it was somebody really famous, the whole thing

580
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 2: was doing the job properly. But you don't get to

581
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 2: do that until you gain a certain amount of recognition yourself.

582
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,880
Speaker 2: You know, I did a lot of gigs that were

583
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:47,360
Speaker 2: I mean, the first album I was on was something

584
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 2: called Psychedelic Soul, and I don't want to say that

585
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:56,280
Speaker 2: it was bad, but everything they printed after a few

586
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 2: months was sold to Red China.

587
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:02,360
Speaker 1: It was bad.

588
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,840
Speaker 2: And I played on a lot of you know, bad

589
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:12,279
Speaker 2: beginner things, and for a while I had I would

590
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:17,279
Speaker 2: be called by a producer named Tommy Kay Thomas Jefferson Ka,

591
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 2: of course you know Tommy.

592
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know personally, even put out albums under

593
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 1: his own name.

594
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:30,799
Speaker 2: Well, the thing about Tommy was he wanted to be

595
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 2: who's that great producer who ended up in.

596
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 1: Jail, Phil Spector?

597
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 2: Phil Spector. He wanted to be Phil Spector. He always

598
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 2: wears sunglasses and slouched and said, anyhow, the thing about

599
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:53,360
Speaker 2: Tommy is you never got paid scale. So after a

600
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 2: while I didn't have to do those gigs, and I

601
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 2: stopped doing them. I'm telling Tommy, you know, if you're

602
00:41:58,560 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 2: not going to pay scale, I'm not going to do it.

603
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 2: And actually I got paid double scale a lot. I

604
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 2: don't remember if it was that period, but I used

605
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 2: to get at least scale. And Tommy said, well, listen,

606
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:16,800
Speaker 2: you've got to play this one the other guitar players.

607
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 2: Eric Clapton, I said, are you seriously? Said yeah. So

608
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 2: I go to the studio a couple days later and

609
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 2: I look around. There's another guitar player, and I go

610
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,600
Speaker 2: to Tommy. I say, Tommy, you know that's not Eric Clapton.

611
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:38,240
Speaker 2: He says, yeah, but it looks just like him, doesn't

612
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 2: He Well, yeah, you know, when you're just starting out,

613
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 2: you meet all the bottom feeders first.

614
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 1: Oh. Absolutely, So at this point in time, now you

615
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,840
Speaker 1: pick up the guitar, when you're thirteen, you ultimately expand

616
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 1: other stringed instruments. When does that happen? Oh?

617
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 2: You know, I wish I could name a year when

618
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 2: something happened. But you know, in addition to not putting

619
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 2: two and two together, I never recorded when something like

620
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 2: that happened. I just loved that it happened and went through.

621
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:25,720
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm.

622
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 1: Talking I think traditionally I don't need to like February second,

623
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty four. I mean, did you sit there and say, oh, look,

624
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 1: there's that instrument I want to learn how to play,

625
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:37,880
Speaker 1: or did you consciously say I need to expand my

626
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 1: repertoire or were you just infatuated with every stringed instrument

627
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 1: you wanted to play them all?

628
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 2: Not exactly. The first instrument, not a guitar, that I

629
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 2: took up, was the doughbro. And there was one dobro player,

630
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 2: a really good musician in New York at the time,

631
00:43:56,560 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 2: and I figured, well, two wouldn't hurt. And so I

632
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:04,800
Speaker 2: started to learn a little bit of doughbro, very basic stuff,

633
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,280
Speaker 2: and I could I could sit in with people in play.

634
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:13,759
Speaker 2: So that's what got me to playing doughbro. Fiddle was

635
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 2: more complex and I can actually describe it. I didn't

636
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 2: take play fiddle until I was leading my own band

637
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 2: and Jay Younger was in the band. I don't know

638
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:35,840
Speaker 2: if you're familiar with Jay, but you're for certain familiar

639
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:38,439
Speaker 2: with at least one of the songs he wrote, called

640
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 2: the show Can Farewell, that Ken Burns used as the

641
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:48,239
Speaker 2: theme for his thing on the Civil War. So I

642
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 2: started to think, boy, I loved his playing, and I

643
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 2: started thinking, I want to play fiddle, and I know

644
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 2: what I want to sound like. I want to sound

645
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 2: like Jay Younger. So I bought myself a fiddle and

646
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:10,399
Speaker 2: proceeded to to learn how to feebly play on it

647
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:18,320
Speaker 2: played on a I played on a few of my records,

648
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 2: usually with a couple of other fiddlers playing at the

649
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 2: same time.

650
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 1: But how did you end up playing on Jerry Jeff

651
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:30,759
Speaker 1: Walker's bo Jangles Mister Bojangles.

652
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 2: I was running around the village and there was a

653
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 2: harmonica player named Donnie Brooks who ran around. He was

654
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 2: a good guy. I'm really sad he's not with us

655
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:45,800
Speaker 2: any longer. But Donnie thought that Jerry Jeff and I

656
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 2: would get along really well. At the time, Jerry Jeff

657
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:56,319
Speaker 2: was part of a jazz fusion band. I usually know

658
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 2: the name of it, but for some reason it is

659
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:05,879
Speaker 2: Circus Maximus. I think that, Yeah, they had an AM

660
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 2: I mean an FM hit with one of the fusion things.

661
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:15,760
Speaker 2: But that band didn't like the stuff that Jerry Jeff wrote.

662
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 2: So he and I would play together and I really

663
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:25,919
Speaker 2: enjoyed doing it, and I wanted to do it more.

664
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:28,920
Speaker 2: But you know, he was part of that band. But

665
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:36,880
Speaker 2: I got gage for us actually, and I started just

666
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 2: to take a step back. Jody Stecker became a good

667
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:43,279
Speaker 2: friend of mine. I learned more from Jody Stecker maybe

668
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:48,800
Speaker 2: than anybody else than I learned from anybody else Anyhow, Jody,

669
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:51,279
Speaker 2: you used to take me up to w b A

670
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 2: I FM, to Bob Fastest program Radio Unnameable, which started

671
00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 2: at midnight and ran to God knows, and so I

672
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:04,560
Speaker 2: started to bringing you know, later I started bring Jerry

673
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:11,800
Speaker 2: Jeff up there. And Bob Fast loved the Bojangles song

674
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:16,799
Speaker 2: and we had done it on his show about three

675
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:20,240
Speaker 2: times when he made a tape loop out of those

676
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:24,360
Speaker 2: three performances of the same song. And if we weren't

677
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:26,359
Speaker 2: coming up, he might play it a few times a night.

678
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:34,239
Speaker 2: And now, the only privilege that a songwriter has is

679
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 2: deciding who can be the first one to record his song.

680
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:45,279
Speaker 2: After that, it's up to anyone. Jerry Jeff didn't have

681
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:51,759
Speaker 2: a manager, let alone. He was signed to Vanguard, but

682
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:59,280
Speaker 2: his band didn't want to do any of his country tunes. However,

683
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 2: that song from Bob Fast playing it spread all over

684
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 2: New York. You know, people were looking for it and

685
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:12,080
Speaker 2: asking for it. The piano player at Gillie's, which is

686
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 2: where Sidatra used to hang out, was a guy named

687
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:21,279
Speaker 2: Bobby Cole, and he was a talented piano player, and

688
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 2: he heard it on the radio in the wee hours

689
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:28,359
Speaker 2: coming home from his gig and he decided, well, that's

690
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 2: a good one. I'll cover that, and so he recorded

691
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 2: it for a subsidiary of CBS. I can't get the

692
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:44,920
Speaker 2: name of the label, but maybe Date or something. Anyhow,

693
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:49,360
Speaker 2: he recorded it and it was sent to disc jockeys

694
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:51,680
Speaker 2: and it started to get played and Jerry Jeff said,

695
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:54,919
Speaker 2: wait a minute, that's my song. And I didn't give

696
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 2: him permission to record it, so he hurried up, got

697
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:05,239
Speaker 2: himself a manager, on himself a label. The first place

698
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:07,319
Speaker 2: we had to go was to Vanguard because he was

699
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:11,080
Speaker 2: signed there, and Vanguard was the only label in New

700
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:15,759
Speaker 2: York City that wasn't trying to find that song. So

701
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 2: they booked some time for us in the studio and

702
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:27,440
Speaker 2: Gary Gary White playing bass, Jerry Jeff, Me and Norman Smart,

703
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:31,160
Speaker 2: who later played drums for Elvis. But he wasn't playing

704
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:34,799
Speaker 2: drums that day he was playing. He was playing on

705
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:35,360
Speaker 2: his body.

706
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:39,120
Speaker 1: He also played drums on the first Mountain album.

707
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:46,239
Speaker 2: Yes, that's right. He was a talented guy. And so

708
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:49,400
Speaker 2: we did a nice performance of Mister Bojangles and they

709
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 2: listened to it and they said, oh, you can record it.

710
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:55,840
Speaker 2: Just if we want an album from you later, you

711
00:49:55,920 --> 00:50:00,120
Speaker 2: have to give us an album. So Jerry Jeff signed

712
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:04,000
Speaker 2: with at CO which it was the division of Atlantic,

713
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:14,320
Speaker 2: and he was booked to record the song in Memphis

714
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:23,920
Speaker 2: at Sam Phillips Studio and I was brought along. I

715
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:26,760
Speaker 2: don't know if Jerry Cheff Acid or the man David.

716
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 2: I can't get his last name. I feel terrible because

717
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:36,320
Speaker 2: I knew him well. Anyhow, we flew up small plane

718
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 2: down to Memphis and we went to the studio and

719
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:43,520
Speaker 2: the engineer was Tom Dowd. I don't know if you're

720
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:46,759
Speaker 2: familiar with Tom Dowd, but of course, of course he

721
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:51,239
Speaker 2: invented faders, and also he was on the Manhattan Project.

722
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:55,080
Speaker 2: I mean, this was a skillful guy. And he didn't

723
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:57,479
Speaker 2: know me from Adam. He'd never heard Jerry Jeff live.

724
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:02,880
Speaker 2: I was basically Jerry Jeff's orc Struff for years. So

725
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:06,239
Speaker 2: I'm sitting in the studio and he's trying to get

726
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 2: a a take he likes of mister Bojangles, and the

727
00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:15,399
Speaker 2: band has it, and there Jerry Jeff performs it for

728
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:18,400
Speaker 2: them and so that they're doing it kind of straight

729
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:21,839
Speaker 2: from him in Walt's time, because it is in three

730
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:28,160
Speaker 2: four times. But I didn't play it that way. Anyhow,

731
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:31,880
Speaker 2: I was. It's embarrassing to admit, but I was in

732
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:38,520
Speaker 2: tears and Dad was getting very frustrated with the band.

733
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:41,279
Speaker 2: They couldn't get out of this Viennese walls thing. He said,

734
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:43,960
Speaker 2: let the kid do something. You know, there was a

735
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:46,920
Speaker 2: woman who was playing a twelve string given the twelve string,

736
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:49,759
Speaker 2: so I played my part to it, which was not

737
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:53,480
Speaker 2: in three four, it was in six's eight and that

738
00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:57,200
Speaker 2: changed the whole thing, and that's what was put out

739
00:51:57,280 --> 00:51:59,319
Speaker 2: and we didn't have trouble with it after that.

740
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:04,759
Speaker 1: And did Tom Dowd remember you and ever call you

741
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:08,040
Speaker 1: in the future. No? No.

742
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:10,839
Speaker 2: I called him once and he remembered me enough to

743
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,799
Speaker 2: see him, and I had a little lick I thought

744
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,880
Speaker 2: might be a basis for an instrumental, but it was

745
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 2: two it was. It wasn't very original. He said, No,

746
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:26,399
Speaker 2: you know I became better then you.

747
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 1: Play on Tom Rush's first Columbia record. How did that

748
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:34,560
Speaker 1: come to happen? Tom asked me, So you knew Tom.

749
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 2: I don't know if I knew him at the time.

750
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:44,640
Speaker 2: I mean, our relationship may have started at those sessions,

751
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:49,880
Speaker 2: which by the way, were the first sessions recorded with Dolby.

752
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:53,880
Speaker 2: Here's there's a bit of trivia for you.

753
00:52:54,080 --> 00:53:00,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, right right, yeah, So either you know what that is, don't.

754
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:02,919
Speaker 1: I won't die hanging there being it's a theme history

755
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:07,799
Speaker 1: because of course Dolby was superseded theoretically by DBX because

756
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:10,920
Speaker 1: Dolby only worked on the high end. DBX worked across

757
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:14,000
Speaker 1: the complete spectrum, and then Steely Dian got a whole

758
00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:17,600
Speaker 1: album and the decode was off and that was pretty

759
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 1: much the end of DBX. But then you work with

760
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 1: Al Cooper, I'm easy, does it? That's another album I

761
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:28,160
Speaker 1: have me and ten other people. How do you end

762
00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:29,400
Speaker 1: up working with Al Cooper?

763
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:34,960
Speaker 2: I got called I might have known Al a little

764
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:39,960
Speaker 2: bit beforehand. Al Cooper is one of the best humans

765
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:45,960
Speaker 2: playing music. I mean just as a human being. He's fantastic,

766
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 2: and he's also an excellent, excellent, excellent musician. But he's

767
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:52,680
Speaker 2: somebody in this business that's easy to love.

768
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 1: Okay, Then how do you end up hooking up with Dylan? Well?

769
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:04,359
Speaker 2: Well, the first time I met Dylan it was at

770
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 2: a Jerry jeff A concert at the Bitter End in

771
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:12,759
Speaker 2: the village and he was in the audience, and afterwards

772
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:17,320
Speaker 2: I was taken to meet him and we shook hands.

773
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:20,160
Speaker 2: I said hello, and that was that, and I figured

774
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:23,440
Speaker 2: he was there to hear Jerry Jeff because Jerry Jeff's

775
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:27,440
Speaker 2: a songwriter and Dylan's a songwriter and songwriters go and

776
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:32,600
Speaker 2: listen to each other. But then I got called, and

777
00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:37,239
Speaker 2: my memory of it was he said he wanted to

778
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:41,719
Speaker 2: try out a studio and would I come and do

779
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:45,600
Speaker 2: it with him. Well, it was a studio he actually

780
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:52,160
Speaker 2: knew quite well at Columbia, and I ended up recording

781
00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:57,120
Speaker 2: with him. I actually did. I'm on four albums of his,

782
00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:04,080
Speaker 2: in different amounts, on different albums. On one of them,

783
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:05,920
Speaker 2: the first album is that I played on.

784
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:08,400
Speaker 1: You said, you produce the tracks to you said.

785
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:11,600
Speaker 2: I produced two of the tracks that I played on,

786
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:18,319
Speaker 2: which were were They were much later. They were on

787
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:25,440
Speaker 2: one of his quote bootleg releases and they were Duncan

788
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:30,319
Speaker 2: and Brady and Missed the Mississippi and you.

789
00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:38,200
Speaker 1: Okay, you're first working on self portrait? What do you

790
00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:39,160
Speaker 1: remember about that?

791
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:43,160
Speaker 2: I remember that I was sick as a dog through

792
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:48,200
Speaker 2: the whole recording thing, and I would come home and

793
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:51,600
Speaker 2: fall on my bed with my clothes on, and wake

794
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:54,120
Speaker 2: up in time to get to the studio, take a shower,

795
00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:56,759
Speaker 2: get to the studio and that was it bed and

796
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:08,480
Speaker 2: the studio, so that I remember that very well. Also

797
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:16,919
Speaker 2: on that session, I think on self Portrait. Most of

798
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:20,640
Speaker 2: the sessions that I was on were just me and

799
00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:25,400
Speaker 2: Bob and they were later released like that called another

800
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:28,920
Speaker 2: Self Portrait I think, or something like that, and some

801
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:32,920
Speaker 2: of them Al Cooper was on and that may be

802
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:33,919
Speaker 2: where I met Al.

803
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:38,120
Speaker 1: Okay, So Self Portrait is a double album, you know,

804
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:41,160
Speaker 1: Dylan as is so called Motorcycle Action, which is up

805
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:45,800
Speaker 1: to debate now comes back out with John Wesley Harding.

806
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:51,160
Speaker 1: The National Skyline does double album self Portrait.

807
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:52,920
Speaker 2: National Skyline came first.

808
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:55,800
Speaker 1: I think National Skyline came before Self Portrait.

809
00:56:56,920 --> 00:57:00,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think so.

810
00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:03,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. And Self Portrait is a double album, has

811
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:07,719
Speaker 1: a certain number of covers, and for the first time ever,

812
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:10,080
Speaker 1: Dylan gets bad reviews.

813
00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:10,919
Speaker 2: Right.

814
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:15,759
Speaker 1: Did you continue to have contact with him? Did you

815
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:17,480
Speaker 1: sense that he was troubled by that?

816
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:23,400
Speaker 2: No? I didn't, But let me remind you, I'm the

817
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:27,400
Speaker 2: guy who doesn't know what one and one is, So

818
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 2: I didn't. I didn't know, and I didn't have a

819
00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:34,480
Speaker 2: whole lot of contract contact with him then until he

820
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:36,920
Speaker 2: called me for another group of sessions.

821
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:40,080
Speaker 1: Okay. Well, that's the interesting thing, because he does. Self

822
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:44,240
Speaker 1: Portrait comes out in the spring of nineteen seventy, and

823
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:47,960
Speaker 1: then he comes out with another album within months, New Morning,

824
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:53,720
Speaker 1: which you were on, which is one of my favorite albums,

825
00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:57,840
Speaker 1: Sign on the Window, et cetera by Dylan. Is there

826
00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:00,920
Speaker 1: any consciousness that he's trying to make statements You're work

827
00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:04,480
Speaker 1: in faster? What's the difference between recording New Morning and

828
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:06,240
Speaker 1: recording Self Portrait?

829
00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:14,240
Speaker 2: You know, I sometimes tell reviewers or interviewers don't ask

830
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:19,520
Speaker 2: me any overview questions because I can never answer overview questions.

831
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:25,080
Speaker 2: I'm too busy looking at the trees to see the forest.

832
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:31,680
Speaker 1: Okay, if I were to mention certain songs on New Morning,

833
00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:33,720
Speaker 1: would you remember what you played on? Or too much

834
00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:37,400
Speaker 1: in the forest?

835
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:40,480
Speaker 2: I might remember some of them, there are some that

836
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:41,880
Speaker 2: I wouldn't know for sure.

837
00:58:41,880 --> 00:58:45,200
Speaker 1: Okay, really, so we have Self Portrait, we have New Morning.

838
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:47,480
Speaker 1: What are the other two Dylan albums you play on.

839
00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:50,120
Speaker 2: Well, there was another one that came out out not

840
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:54,200
Speaker 2: long after one or the other of those two, which

841
00:58:54,280 --> 00:58:59,720
Speaker 2: was simply called Dylan, which had some more takes from

842
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:04,160
Speaker 2: one of those two recordings. And I'm not sure which.

843
00:59:04,680 --> 00:59:09,840
Speaker 2: And the other one was this bootleg album thing which

844
00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:12,760
Speaker 2: I told you about, where I had to give you

845
00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:13,960
Speaker 2: some sessions.

846
00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:16,760
Speaker 1: I don't want to focus on this to the exclusion

847
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:19,520
Speaker 1: of your own career. But was this sort of one

848
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:22,880
Speaker 1: and done or if you maintained any kind of relationship

849
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:23,440
Speaker 1: with Dylan.

850
00:59:29,720 --> 00:59:35,360
Speaker 2: We have a relationship, but in the music industry, relationships

851
00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:45,520
Speaker 2: don't necessarily include frequent contact. You can be in a

852
00:59:45,560 --> 00:59:48,160
Speaker 2: city and meet a player and not see him again

853
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:51,320
Speaker 2: for seven years, but you got close to him, and

854
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:53,120
Speaker 2: when you get back to that city, you can pick

855
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:57,240
Speaker 2: up your last conversation. I mean, that's the way it

856
00:59:57,360 --> 01:00:01,480
Speaker 2: is in the music business. Bob and I had a

857
01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:09,160
Speaker 2: little I got mad at him for something at one point,

858
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:12,000
Speaker 2: and we didn't have much contact for a few years.

859
01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:16,080
Speaker 1: If you are willing to reveal what did you get

860
01:00:16,080 --> 01:00:16,840
Speaker 1: mad about.

861
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:21,200
Speaker 2: I really don't want to go into it. It wasn't

862
01:00:21,240 --> 01:00:22,960
Speaker 2: a big deal to anyone in the world.

863
01:00:22,960 --> 01:00:32,840
Speaker 1: But me, let's move on from there. How do you

864
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:34,760
Speaker 1: get your own record deal with Columbia?

865
01:00:36,280 --> 01:00:41,480
Speaker 2: That is interesting. I was accompanying a woman named Rosalie

866
01:00:41,480 --> 01:00:49,880
Speaker 2: Currell's and Rosalie got booked at the second Isle of

867
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:54,080
Speaker 2: Wight Festival, which was the last one for decades, And

868
01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:56,280
Speaker 2: the reason it was the last one for decades is

869
01:00:56,880 --> 01:01:00,640
Speaker 2: that the crowds broke down the fences and everybody in free,

870
01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:05,280
Speaker 2: hundreds of thousands of people. So I was there to

871
01:01:05,320 --> 01:01:14,120
Speaker 2: accompany Rosalie, and experienced performers know that a crowd that

872
01:01:17,720 --> 01:01:21,680
Speaker 2: doesn't pay is the hardest one to satisfy. A crowd

873
01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:25,760
Speaker 2: that gets in free, they're really hard to satisfy. And

874
01:01:26,600 --> 01:01:30,920
Speaker 2: a number of very good artists got booed off the

875
01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:39,800
Speaker 2: stage or came within a whisker of it. And Rosalie

876
01:01:39,920 --> 01:01:43,080
Speaker 2: was was on Wednesday afternoon. There was no press there

877
01:01:43,120 --> 01:01:51,360
Speaker 2: at all, and so I was accompanying her, and the

878
01:01:51,480 --> 01:01:55,320
Speaker 2: crowd started to get restive. Rosalie's thing was very intimate.

879
01:01:55,680 --> 01:01:58,280
Speaker 2: In a small club, it would get right to you,

880
01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:02,640
Speaker 2: and in front of several hundred thousand people, it really

881
01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:06,480
Speaker 2: wasn't built for that, but it should have gone over anyhow,

882
01:02:06,560 --> 01:02:10,760
Speaker 2: and they were rude, and she was about to be overcome,

883
01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:16,000
Speaker 2: and she asked me to do a song of mine,

884
01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:19,680
Speaker 2: a funny song, a long, funny song called the Bullfrog Blues.

885
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:23,520
Speaker 2: She'd never asked me to do a song in one

886
01:02:23,560 --> 01:02:27,080
Speaker 2: of her sets and never did again. But that afternoon

887
01:02:27,120 --> 01:02:30,400
Speaker 2: she did, and I did Bullfrog Blues and the crowd

888
01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:35,640
Speaker 2: loved it and they let Rosalie finish her set. So

889
01:02:35,800 --> 01:02:39,919
Speaker 2: when we got off stage a little while after we'd

890
01:02:39,960 --> 01:02:42,800
Speaker 2: packed up the instruments, the promoters came to me and

891
01:02:42,920 --> 01:02:48,360
Speaker 2: asked me if i'd come back at dusk and maybe

892
01:02:48,400 --> 01:02:52,280
Speaker 2: do some more. I didn't realize it at the time,

893
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:55,360
Speaker 2: but dusk is the very best time to perform at

894
01:02:55,360 --> 01:02:59,280
Speaker 2: an outdoor festival because it's getting dark, so the only

895
01:02:59,320 --> 01:03:04,040
Speaker 2: focus is the stage, but you're hopefully not so burnt

896
01:03:04,040 --> 01:03:08,280
Speaker 2: out that you can't really hear what's going on. So okay,

897
01:03:08,440 --> 01:03:10,200
Speaker 2: you know. I came back and I asked them how

898
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:13,600
Speaker 2: many songs I should do, and they said do an hour.

899
01:03:15,320 --> 01:03:18,000
Speaker 2: And I don't know that I'd ever done an hour before,

900
01:03:19,080 --> 01:03:21,600
Speaker 2: but I went out there and I did an hour

901
01:03:21,680 --> 01:03:22,840
Speaker 2: and got a couple encourse.

902
01:03:24,480 --> 01:03:24,920
Speaker 1: Wow.

903
01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:29,320
Speaker 2: That, yeah, really was something, And there's there's some video

904
01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:34,680
Speaker 2: of part of the crew talking about it afterwards, which

905
01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:42,600
Speaker 2: is encouraging. But TiO Massa was there for Columbia recording

906
01:03:42,640 --> 01:03:46,240
Speaker 2: it because they wanted to release that, and he recommended

907
01:03:46,280 --> 01:03:51,000
Speaker 2: that they sign me. Unfortunately, I never met him. I

908
01:03:51,040 --> 01:03:53,320
Speaker 2: wish I had. I would have liked to have thanked him.

909
01:03:53,920 --> 01:03:57,600
Speaker 2: But so that's that's how I got signed to Colombia.

910
01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:03,080
Speaker 1: Now, when you get signed Clive Davis still running the company,

911
01:04:03,080 --> 01:04:06,480
Speaker 1: then he gets blown out. That affect you in your career?

912
01:04:06,560 --> 01:04:08,880
Speaker 1: Whatso any to any degree?

913
01:04:10,920 --> 01:04:11,720
Speaker 2: I have no idea.

914
01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:18,600
Speaker 1: Okay, sorry, okay. So the first album you record it

915
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:22,600
Speaker 1: by today's standre it's very difficult by the period before

916
01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:26,200
Speaker 1: you get to produce it. So to what degree was

917
01:04:26,240 --> 01:04:29,960
Speaker 1: the company hands on? To what degree were you happy?

918
01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:33,480
Speaker 1: And to what degree? Then what was your experience after

919
01:04:33,480 --> 01:04:34,040
Speaker 1: it came out.

920
01:04:38,120 --> 01:04:41,240
Speaker 2: Well, I didn't know anything about producing an album, but

921
01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:45,960
Speaker 2: I knew what I wanted. It never occurred to me

922
01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:50,320
Speaker 2: that there was money involved, so I just did.

923
01:04:51,080 --> 01:04:52,400
Speaker 1: Those were the days.

924
01:04:52,120 --> 01:04:59,320
Speaker 2: When some artists spent tens of thousands recording an album.

925
01:05:00,040 --> 01:05:02,720
Speaker 2: So anyhow, I did the album the way I wanted

926
01:05:03,640 --> 01:05:08,520
Speaker 2: And there was one of their house producers who'd been

927
01:05:08,520 --> 01:05:11,400
Speaker 2: assigned to it, and he wasn't happy about it, but

928
01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:16,880
Speaker 2: they let me do it. And when it came out,

929
01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:20,840
Speaker 2: I really don't know much about it except that I

930
01:05:20,920 --> 01:05:27,280
Speaker 2: found myself in La and there was a billboard of

931
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:31,160
Speaker 2: the cover of the album. The cover of the album

932
01:05:31,280 --> 01:05:34,920
Speaker 2: was actually a sketch of me that my sister did,

933
01:05:36,880 --> 01:05:43,120
Speaker 2: so nobody knew that that person on what's the name

934
01:05:43,160 --> 01:05:47,960
Speaker 2: of that boulevard, that huge face. So yeah, that huge

935
01:05:48,160 --> 01:05:54,720
Speaker 2: sunset boulevard, it was me. I wanted to stand next

936
01:05:54,720 --> 01:06:02,000
Speaker 2: to it, but it wouldn't have done any good. So yeah,

937
01:06:02,040 --> 01:06:03,840
Speaker 2: I don't really know what.

938
01:06:03,880 --> 01:06:07,200
Speaker 1: Okay, So the album comes out gets a big bush.

939
01:06:07,600 --> 01:06:10,880
Speaker 1: I have friends who bought it. People are very aware

940
01:06:10,920 --> 01:06:16,640
Speaker 1: of it. There is a lot of criticism relative to

941
01:06:16,680 --> 01:06:20,200
Speaker 1: your voice. Did that affect you whatsoever?

942
01:06:23,120 --> 01:06:28,240
Speaker 2: No, For one thing, the criticism was quite valid. Back then,

943
01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:32,840
Speaker 2: my singing was extorable. It was terrible, but I could

944
01:06:32,840 --> 01:06:37,840
Speaker 2: play the guitar, but the singing really wasn't very good

945
01:06:39,200 --> 01:06:42,080
Speaker 2: on most of it. There's a track or two where

946
01:06:42,080 --> 01:06:46,000
Speaker 2: I did sing well, because the point is, a good

947
01:06:46,080 --> 01:06:52,320
Speaker 2: voice and good singing are not the same thing. So anyhow,

948
01:06:53,120 --> 01:06:58,600
Speaker 2: years later, after I'd taken my twenty two years sabbatical,

949
01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:02,520
Speaker 2: I came back. I discovered that I really could sing,

950
01:07:04,080 --> 01:07:08,640
Speaker 2: and I enjoyed it. There are physical sensations coming from

951
01:07:08,720 --> 01:07:12,320
Speaker 2: it that I'd never felt before that I loved so

952
01:07:13,840 --> 01:07:17,280
Speaker 2: and these days I can still sing. I don't play

953
01:07:17,320 --> 01:07:18,160
Speaker 2: as well as I used to.

954
01:07:19,920 --> 01:07:22,760
Speaker 1: Okay, what was the trick that you could finally or

955
01:07:22,800 --> 01:07:24,320
Speaker 1: what happened that you could finally sing?

956
01:07:26,760 --> 01:07:30,120
Speaker 2: I received a lot of advice. I took some voice

957
01:07:30,200 --> 01:07:33,920
Speaker 2: lessons in California for a while, but the stuff that

958
01:07:34,000 --> 01:07:37,560
Speaker 2: really helped most was some advice from Phoebe Snow, who

959
01:07:37,640 --> 01:07:41,960
Speaker 2: was a good friend of mine, And in particular, the

960
01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:48,280
Speaker 2: advice she gave me is, when you're about to sing,

961
01:07:49,920 --> 01:07:54,880
Speaker 2: open your throat like you're yawning and sing through the

962
01:07:55,000 --> 01:08:01,320
Speaker 2: aw and that was really important and get it right away.

963
01:08:01,560 --> 01:08:04,960
Speaker 2: But as I said, I did later. She also discussed

964
01:08:04,960 --> 01:08:09,080
Speaker 2: that your voice doesn't really feel like it's coming from

965
01:08:09,200 --> 01:08:13,440
Speaker 2: your mouth. It feels like it's coming from your nose

966
01:08:13,480 --> 01:08:18,880
Speaker 2: and eyes, your mask in other words, And that stuff

967
01:08:18,960 --> 01:08:20,720
Speaker 2: was all very helpful to me.

968
01:08:22,080 --> 01:08:24,559
Speaker 1: And I'd be remiss if I didn't ask how George

969
01:08:24,600 --> 01:08:26,160
Speaker 1: Harrison ends up on the album.

970
01:08:28,160 --> 01:08:32,000
Speaker 2: Well, I had met George one time. I met him

971
01:08:32,000 --> 01:08:34,479
Speaker 2: in the Columbia studios and he sang me one of

972
01:08:34,479 --> 01:08:39,360
Speaker 2: my songs which you could have knocked me over with

973
01:08:39,400 --> 01:08:41,720
Speaker 2: a feather, and I asked him where I learned it,

974
01:08:41,720 --> 01:08:44,320
Speaker 2: and he said, Bob taught it to him and I

975
01:08:44,360 --> 01:08:47,000
Speaker 2: had no idea Bob knew one of my songs, so

976
01:08:47,040 --> 01:08:50,559
Speaker 2: that was very nice. And so we'd met at a

977
01:08:50,600 --> 01:08:56,639
Speaker 2: couple of different places, and my manager at the time

978
01:08:56,800 --> 01:08:59,240
Speaker 2: was a guy named al Ronowitz who is very close

979
01:08:59,240 --> 01:09:03,559
Speaker 2: to the Beatles, and my guess is that he asked

980
01:09:06,160 --> 01:09:09,679
Speaker 2: George if he would, you know, record with me, and

981
01:09:11,760 --> 01:09:16,280
Speaker 2: actually the Ringo. I don't know if I should tell

982
01:09:16,320 --> 01:09:19,719
Speaker 2: a story. Well I started, I'll do it. I vowed

983
01:09:19,760 --> 01:09:26,040
Speaker 2: never to tell it, but Ringo told me that after

984
01:09:26,080 --> 01:09:30,200
Speaker 2: my first album came out, John said the other three

985
01:09:30,240 --> 01:09:33,800
Speaker 2: down made them sit through the entire album. Wow, So

986
01:09:35,240 --> 01:09:41,759
Speaker 2: I guess we've we've we've unveiled his sadistic nature right there.

987
01:09:43,400 --> 01:09:48,640
Speaker 1: Okay to what degree? Because you started before the Beatles, Oh,

988
01:09:48,680 --> 01:09:50,759
Speaker 1: they are somewhat there contemporary in age.

989
01:09:50,840 --> 01:09:52,120
Speaker 2: No, they started before me.

990
01:09:53,600 --> 01:09:58,880
Speaker 1: Let me restate that before their breakthrough in America. So

991
01:09:59,200 --> 01:10:02,479
Speaker 1: you were playing other types of music when the Beatles hit.

992
01:10:02,560 --> 01:10:04,040
Speaker 1: Were you a Beatles fan?

993
01:10:04,800 --> 01:10:10,920
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, big time? Yeah. I loved the Beatles. And

994
01:10:11,360 --> 01:10:19,960
Speaker 2: the reason I know that they were known first was

995
01:10:21,240 --> 01:10:24,760
Speaker 2: I was the music counselor at the age of fourteen

996
01:10:26,960 --> 01:10:31,080
Speaker 2: at a summer camp and some of the kids had

997
01:10:31,080 --> 01:10:37,320
Speaker 2: the Beatles album. So so I'm pretty clear that the

998
01:10:37,320 --> 01:10:42,519
Speaker 2: Beatles were making some noise long before me. I didn't

999
01:10:42,560 --> 01:10:47,679
Speaker 2: record until I was maybe nineteen or twenty.

1000
01:10:49,720 --> 01:10:52,960
Speaker 1: Okay, Aleronowitz was a journalist. How did he end up

1001
01:10:52,960 --> 01:10:55,360
Speaker 1: as being your manager? And was he a good manager?

1002
01:10:56,840 --> 01:11:00,639
Speaker 2: It was a very complicated relationship and both of us

1003
01:11:00,680 --> 01:11:05,280
Speaker 2: made a lot of mistakes. I met him through Rosalie

1004
01:11:07,439 --> 01:11:11,639
Speaker 2: so else and that's kind of where that came together.

1005
01:11:14,400 --> 01:11:17,400
Speaker 1: Well, would the story or your career have played out

1006
01:11:17,400 --> 01:11:20,680
Speaker 1: differently if he was Is someone else more experienced? Was

1007
01:11:20,720 --> 01:11:21,320
Speaker 1: the manager?

1008
01:11:22,560 --> 01:11:26,559
Speaker 2: Oh? I really don't know. He did a lot of

1009
01:11:27,120 --> 01:11:31,000
Speaker 2: you know, in lately I have come to realize that

1010
01:11:31,080 --> 01:11:32,720
Speaker 2: he did a lot of things for me that were

1011
01:11:32,760 --> 01:11:39,120
Speaker 2: really great. But as I say, our relationship was difficult,

1012
01:11:40,640 --> 01:11:44,080
Speaker 2: and I was definitely responsible for some of it, and

1013
01:11:44,240 --> 01:11:46,080
Speaker 2: he was definitely responsible for some of it.

1014
01:11:46,280 --> 01:11:50,160
Speaker 1: So, and how long before your sabbatical did he remain

1015
01:11:50,240 --> 01:11:52,040
Speaker 1: your manager or to replace him?

1016
01:11:53,680 --> 01:11:56,040
Speaker 2: I'm very bad with years.

1017
01:11:56,439 --> 01:11:57,840
Speaker 1: Let me ask you a question. Did you have another

1018
01:11:57,880 --> 01:11:59,080
Speaker 1: manager after al.

1019
01:12:00,479 --> 01:12:06,640
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think I did, But I'm blanking.

1020
01:12:06,600 --> 01:12:10,520
Speaker 1: Okay, not important. So you put out this album suddenly,

1021
01:12:10,600 --> 01:12:14,960
Speaker 1: you know, the train leaves the station, you make another record. Well,

1022
01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:18,040
Speaker 1: what's your experience during this period? But you just have

1023
01:12:18,120 --> 01:12:19,800
Speaker 1: your head down and you're working so much you don't

1024
01:12:19,840 --> 01:12:22,559
Speaker 1: know which end is up. Are you worried about sales?

1025
01:12:22,680 --> 01:12:26,479
Speaker 1: You worry about audience aside you're playing? Are you enjoying it?

1026
01:12:26,600 --> 01:12:31,439
Speaker 1: Do you feel it's more like a grind? What's it like? Oh?

1027
01:12:31,600 --> 01:12:35,000
Speaker 2: I was enjoying it until that one time I told

1028
01:12:35,040 --> 01:12:38,240
Speaker 2: you about New Jersey when I realized I didn't want

1029
01:12:38,280 --> 01:12:41,599
Speaker 2: to play. But I really was enjoying it, and I

1030
01:12:41,720 --> 01:12:47,439
Speaker 2: was working my butt off, and I didn't realize I

1031
01:12:47,439 --> 01:12:51,360
Speaker 2: could say, look, this is too much. Slow down, So

1032
01:12:51,479 --> 01:12:54,519
Speaker 2: I never said it, and then one day I just

1033
01:12:54,720 --> 01:12:56,080
Speaker 2: kind of said I got to stop.

1034
01:12:57,040 --> 01:13:00,560
Speaker 1: Okay. Drugs and alcohol factor on the road.

1035
01:13:02,200 --> 01:13:10,040
Speaker 2: They were always there. I don't think they affected performance

1036
01:13:10,080 --> 01:13:15,680
Speaker 2: a great deal, especially not alcohol, because although back in

1037
01:13:15,720 --> 01:13:20,320
Speaker 2: those days I used to sometimes drink Jack Daniels before

1038
01:13:20,360 --> 01:13:27,280
Speaker 2: and during a concert, but I can only remember one

1039
01:13:27,320 --> 01:13:30,000
Speaker 2: concert where it affected me enough to comment on it.

1040
01:13:31,400 --> 01:13:34,080
Speaker 1: Okay. So if the first album comes out in seventy two,

1041
01:13:35,320 --> 01:13:37,000
Speaker 1: when does the sabbatical begin.

1042
01:13:39,920 --> 01:13:41,200
Speaker 2: Seventy nine?

1043
01:13:41,520 --> 01:13:45,360
Speaker 1: Okay, So you make records on Columbia gives you a

1044
01:13:45,400 --> 01:13:48,519
Speaker 1: big push at first, and then you end up switching

1045
01:13:48,560 --> 01:13:51,280
Speaker 1: to Fantasy. How does you know what happens there?

1046
01:13:57,320 --> 01:14:01,280
Speaker 2: I was signed by Fantasy and my manager and I

1047
01:14:01,400 --> 01:14:04,680
Speaker 2: moved out to the Bay Area, which is where Fantasy is,

1048
01:14:05,920 --> 01:14:16,560
Speaker 2: and my first album was a double album, and Fantasy

1049
01:14:17,760 --> 01:14:19,920
Speaker 2: said that it sold two hundred thousand copies in the

1050
01:14:19,920 --> 01:14:24,639
Speaker 2: first month. I don't believe it did, but I think

1051
01:14:24,680 --> 01:14:27,280
Speaker 2: that was a good press release. It maybe came close

1052
01:14:27,360 --> 01:14:30,920
Speaker 2: to that, but I don't think it did the number

1053
01:14:31,000 --> 01:14:36,400
Speaker 2: that they said. And they were very nice people, and

1054
01:14:36,680 --> 01:14:40,120
Speaker 2: at one point they were very happy to have hired

1055
01:14:40,880 --> 01:14:49,280
Speaker 2: a former Berry Gordy employer, a guy who had worked

1056
01:14:49,280 --> 01:14:55,720
Speaker 2: on publicity for well, I don't know. I think it

1057
01:14:55,760 --> 01:15:02,599
Speaker 2: was publicity for Barry Gordy's record company in Detroit, and

1058
01:15:04,640 --> 01:15:08,800
Speaker 2: I was passing the office his office one day and

1059
01:15:08,880 --> 01:15:11,040
Speaker 2: he was telling all his people that I was a joke.

1060
01:15:17,040 --> 01:15:22,559
Speaker 2: So that kind of killed my relationship there as far

1061
01:15:22,600 --> 01:15:23,600
Speaker 2: as I was concerned.

1062
01:15:23,840 --> 01:15:26,400
Speaker 1: And did Columbia not want to make any more records?

1063
01:15:26,439 --> 01:15:27,959
Speaker 1: Is that how you ended up in Fantasy?

1064
01:15:31,080 --> 01:15:35,920
Speaker 2: What happened with Columbia is the bean Counters took over,

1065
01:15:35,960 --> 01:15:38,800
Speaker 2: and I know It was the bean Counters because I

1066
01:15:38,840 --> 01:15:45,040
Speaker 2: had my contract that if one of my records sold

1067
01:15:45,280 --> 01:15:49,120
Speaker 2: one hundred thousand that I would get a twenty five

1068
01:15:49,160 --> 01:15:55,280
Speaker 2: thousand dollars bonus. And after a certain point one of

1069
01:15:55,320 --> 01:15:59,200
Speaker 2: my records hit that my first records had sold one

1070
01:15:59,240 --> 01:16:02,439
Speaker 2: hundred thousand, and they paid the bonus. But that made

1071
01:16:02,439 --> 01:16:06,280
Speaker 2: them look into it, and they discovered that my third

1072
01:16:06,320 --> 01:16:08,720
Speaker 2: album in another couple of weeks was going to hit it,

1073
01:16:09,720 --> 01:16:14,720
Speaker 2: and my second album a couple weeks after that, and

1074
01:16:15,400 --> 01:16:20,280
Speaker 2: the fourth album was going gangbusters. So in order to

1075
01:16:20,320 --> 01:16:25,920
Speaker 2: avoid paying out another seventy five thousand dollars, they released me.

1076
01:16:29,439 --> 01:16:30,559
Speaker 2: Then they didn't have to pay that.

1077
01:16:33,280 --> 01:16:39,280
Speaker 1: Wow, okay, So you know during this period till seventy

1078
01:16:39,280 --> 01:16:42,280
Speaker 1: two seventy nine, how are you doing financially?

1079
01:16:44,080 --> 01:16:47,160
Speaker 2: I think I'm doing okay. I can take a cab

1080
01:16:47,200 --> 01:16:53,680
Speaker 2: after the gig. It was fine, okay. And how did

1081
01:16:53,720 --> 01:17:00,920
Speaker 2: you meet your wife? Was it during this period? I

1082
01:17:00,960 --> 01:17:06,960
Speaker 2: think it was actually pretty early. It was before or

1083
01:17:07,240 --> 01:17:13,000
Speaker 2: just after I released my first album, and of course

1084
01:17:13,040 --> 01:17:13,960
Speaker 2: it was at a concert.

1085
01:17:14,280 --> 01:17:15,200
Speaker 1: And how did you meet her?

1086
01:17:15,720 --> 01:17:19,719
Speaker 2: She was part of a group of kids that were

1087
01:17:20,240 --> 01:17:26,680
Speaker 2: members of the New Jersey Folks Society. And this was

1088
01:17:26,720 --> 01:17:31,360
Speaker 2: an interesting group of kids because almost every one of

1089
01:17:31,400 --> 01:17:35,519
Speaker 2: them became a professional musician. Wow, it was Yeah, it

1090
01:17:35,560 --> 01:17:41,200
Speaker 2: was really impressive. And the gig, the first gig that

1091
01:17:41,240 --> 01:17:43,519
Speaker 2: I played there was the first gig that I played

1092
01:17:43,520 --> 01:17:46,720
Speaker 2: as David Bromberg outside of New York City, So it

1093
01:17:46,760 --> 01:17:48,120
Speaker 2: was a big deal to me.

1094
01:17:50,400 --> 01:17:52,640
Speaker 1: And how did you sustain a relationship when you were

1095
01:17:52,640 --> 01:17:53,639
Speaker 1: on the road so much?

1096
01:17:55,080 --> 01:18:00,439
Speaker 2: Well, she was a professional musician. She became a professional musician,

1097
01:18:00,520 --> 01:18:04,800
Speaker 2: and we'd pass each other on the road, and so

1098
01:18:04,840 --> 01:18:07,599
Speaker 2: we'd get together for the time given us and then

1099
01:18:08,360 --> 01:18:12,719
Speaker 2: travel on. And then at a certain point we decided

1100
01:18:13,479 --> 01:18:17,080
Speaker 2: to live together. And I was at this point living

1101
01:18:17,120 --> 01:18:25,400
Speaker 2: in Moren County, and I had a lemon tree in

1102
01:18:25,439 --> 01:18:27,759
Speaker 2: the garden in front of the house. And she drove

1103
01:18:27,840 --> 01:18:30,519
Speaker 2: up for the first time and she saw that, and

1104
01:18:30,600 --> 01:18:32,720
Speaker 2: she thought it was really touching that I'd glued all

1105
01:18:32,760 --> 01:18:34,960
Speaker 2: those lemons to the tree.

1106
01:18:36,720 --> 01:18:37,880
Speaker 1: And when did you get married?

1107
01:18:39,120 --> 01:18:45,160
Speaker 2: Seventy nine?

1108
01:18:47,680 --> 01:18:51,160
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're on stage in New Jersey. Nothing's coming

1109
01:18:51,200 --> 01:18:56,439
Speaker 1: to your brain. You have this bad experience. Literally, what

1110
01:18:56,600 --> 01:18:58,960
Speaker 1: happens right thereafter? And how do you make a left

1111
01:18:58,960 --> 01:18:59,920
Speaker 1: turn into violin?

1112
01:19:01,880 --> 01:19:07,479
Speaker 2: Well, I had become interested in them, and I started

1113
01:19:09,360 --> 01:19:15,160
Speaker 2: to buy a few and sell a few, and it

1114
01:19:15,240 --> 01:19:18,839
Speaker 2: really interested me how someone could tell when and where

1115
01:19:18,960 --> 01:19:22,439
Speaker 2: and maybe even by whom a violin was made by

1116
01:19:22,479 --> 01:19:29,559
Speaker 2: looking at it. So when I decided that I had

1117
01:19:29,600 --> 01:19:35,839
Speaker 2: to stop performing, I decided to go to violin making school.

1118
01:19:37,120 --> 01:19:39,840
Speaker 2: Not because I wanted to make violins, but because I

1119
01:19:39,880 --> 01:19:43,280
Speaker 2: wanted to understand them enough to learn to identify them.

1120
01:19:44,200 --> 01:19:47,599
Speaker 2: And I did that after a terrible depression that Nancy

1121
01:19:47,600 --> 01:19:53,160
Speaker 2: barely lived through my wife. It was very rough on her,

1122
01:19:53,880 --> 01:19:57,080
Speaker 2: but because I didn't know what I was doing.

1123
01:19:58,960 --> 01:20:03,080
Speaker 1: Okay, but viole in making school took years. So is

1124
01:20:03,160 --> 01:20:05,080
Speaker 1: this the only thing you were doing for those years?

1125
01:20:05,880 --> 01:20:10,439
Speaker 2: For three years, I would do an occasional gig on

1126
01:20:10,439 --> 01:20:19,719
Speaker 2: on on on weekends. And you know, I discovered something

1127
01:20:19,800 --> 01:20:23,680
Speaker 2: very interesting which is true not only for me, but

1128
01:20:23,720 --> 01:20:29,160
Speaker 2: for most people who work at a craft like violin making,

1129
01:20:29,200 --> 01:20:33,880
Speaker 2: which is the longer and farther away you are from

1130
01:20:33,920 --> 01:20:38,000
Speaker 2: your bench, h the harder it is to pick up

1131
01:20:38,040 --> 01:20:44,280
Speaker 2: your tools again. So so these these these forays, which

1132
01:20:44,360 --> 01:20:51,840
Speaker 2: gave us food money took a price on my schoolwork.

1133
01:20:54,479 --> 01:20:57,479
Speaker 1: How long would you have to be away from your

1134
01:20:57,479 --> 01:20:59,960
Speaker 1: school work for it to have a negative effect.

1135
01:21:01,880 --> 01:21:08,519
Speaker 2: It wasn't. It didn't matter how long. It mattered at

1136
01:21:08,600 --> 01:21:12,519
Speaker 2: least as much as how far away in distance I went.

1137
01:21:14,600 --> 01:21:18,360
Speaker 2: You know, I'd go for Saturday and Sunday usually, but

1138
01:21:18,439 --> 01:21:21,120
Speaker 2: it might be a Friday night and a Saturday, or

1139
01:21:21,120 --> 01:21:23,680
Speaker 2: a Friday night and a Saturday and a Sunday. But

1140
01:21:24,200 --> 01:21:32,120
Speaker 2: you know, except when the school wasn't in session. But

1141
01:21:35,400 --> 01:21:40,000
Speaker 2: it's kind of interesting the toll it took.

1142
01:21:42,400 --> 01:21:44,639
Speaker 1: Okay, let's say I wanted to go to violin school.

1143
01:21:45,080 --> 01:21:47,639
Speaker 1: Is it like a regular school? I apply? It starts

1144
01:21:47,640 --> 01:21:52,080
Speaker 1: in September, it runs through June. I mean, they have classes.

1145
01:21:52,080 --> 01:21:52,640
Speaker 1: What's it like?

1146
01:21:54,160 --> 01:21:58,559
Speaker 2: It's kind of like that you apply and they start

1147
01:21:58,880 --> 01:22:05,920
Speaker 2: in September. My teacher was a brilliant violin maker named

1148
01:22:05,960 --> 01:22:10,679
Speaker 2: Cheu Ho Lee who had graduated from the State School

1149
01:22:10,840 --> 01:22:16,800
Speaker 2: in Germany, which is a very famous school. I think

1150
01:22:16,840 --> 01:22:22,400
Speaker 2: it's in minten Valve, Germany and or near mintvauld And

1151
01:22:22,680 --> 01:22:29,559
Speaker 2: he he would call everyone around and show them the

1152
01:22:29,600 --> 01:22:35,160
Speaker 2: next thing he wanted them to do, and then you

1153
01:22:35,160 --> 01:22:39,599
Speaker 2: would go and try and do it. But there are

1154
01:22:39,720 --> 01:22:44,960
Speaker 2: some interesting aspects to that. I arrived late. I had

1155
01:22:44,960 --> 01:22:48,960
Speaker 2: some gigs to tie up and so I had to

1156
01:22:49,000 --> 01:22:52,280
Speaker 2: try and catch up, but that was very hard. The

1157
01:22:52,360 --> 01:22:55,400
Speaker 2: first job I was given was to make linings for

1158
01:22:55,479 --> 01:23:00,719
Speaker 2: the inside of the violin, to enlarge the area where

1159
01:23:00,760 --> 01:23:03,400
Speaker 2: the glue would hold the top and the back on.

1160
01:23:04,400 --> 01:23:07,519
Speaker 2: There were small strips that would go around. So the

1161
01:23:07,560 --> 01:23:11,600
Speaker 2: first thing you have to do is plane them to

1162
01:23:11,640 --> 01:23:16,920
Speaker 2: the right thickness. Well, I had a plane, but that's

1163
01:23:16,960 --> 01:23:21,400
Speaker 2: not it. In order to plane them to a given thickness,

1164
01:23:23,200 --> 01:23:29,639
Speaker 2: you had to sharpen the plane, and that's not easy.

1165
01:23:29,680 --> 01:23:32,680
Speaker 2: And to sharpen the plane first you had to grind it.

1166
01:23:34,400 --> 01:23:37,680
Speaker 2: And then once you had ground it and sharpened the

1167
01:23:38,120 --> 01:23:41,719
Speaker 2: thing enough and getting a real sharp point is really

1168
01:23:42,120 --> 01:23:47,000
Speaker 2: not easy, then you have to you're not ready yet,

1169
01:23:47,720 --> 01:23:52,040
Speaker 2: you have to flatten the soul of the plane. So

1170
01:23:53,800 --> 01:23:56,280
Speaker 2: there was a lot of that in violin making school.

1171
01:23:56,800 --> 01:23:59,639
Speaker 2: In order to take the next step forward, you frequently

1172
01:23:59,720 --> 01:24:05,519
Speaker 2: had to take a few backwards. So anyhow, you know,

1173
01:24:06,080 --> 01:24:06,679
Speaker 2: I learned.

1174
01:24:08,240 --> 01:24:11,599
Speaker 1: Okay, so you were in school. How many other people

1175
01:24:11,720 --> 01:24:14,760
Speaker 1: were in class with you? And their goal must have

1176
01:24:14,840 --> 01:24:19,800
Speaker 1: really been making a living, you know, making violins. Some

1177
01:24:19,880 --> 01:24:21,760
Speaker 1: of them wanted to make violince and some of them

1178
01:24:21,960 --> 01:24:30,040
Speaker 1: just wanted to repair violins. There must have been approximately

1179
01:24:30,080 --> 01:24:35,519
Speaker 1: twenty five other students in the classroom, and some were

1180
01:24:35,560 --> 01:24:42,639
Speaker 1: really good and some were not. I was amongst the not. Okay,

1181
01:24:43,400 --> 01:24:49,200
Speaker 1: So you graduate, and where along the line do you

1182
01:24:49,320 --> 01:24:52,200
Speaker 1: decide that you want to open up your own violin shop.

1183
01:24:53,439 --> 01:24:56,960
Speaker 2: When I moved from Chicago to Wilmington, it just seemed

1184
01:24:57,000 --> 01:25:00,800
Speaker 2: like that was the thing I should do. I don't

1185
01:25:00,840 --> 01:25:04,960
Speaker 2: remember deciding it, neither does Nancy. It just was the

1186
01:25:05,000 --> 01:25:07,320
Speaker 2: next thing is opening the shop.

1187
01:25:07,840 --> 01:25:09,040
Speaker 1: Why do you move to Wilmington?

1188
01:25:10,120 --> 01:25:15,600
Speaker 2: We couldn't handle another Chicago winter, Okay?

1189
01:25:15,640 --> 01:25:17,840
Speaker 1: And at what point in this story do you have

1190
01:25:17,880 --> 01:25:18,920
Speaker 1: a child?

1191
01:25:21,720 --> 01:25:27,320
Speaker 2: Well? I have two children, and they both came when

1192
01:25:27,400 --> 01:25:29,080
Speaker 2: I was living in Chicago.

1193
01:25:30,720 --> 01:25:32,880
Speaker 1: So you had the pressure of taking care of the

1194
01:25:32,960 --> 01:25:36,120
Speaker 1: children while you're working on the weekends, while you're making violins.

1195
01:25:37,120 --> 01:25:41,040
Speaker 1: And the violin shop, did you buy it or did

1196
01:25:41,040 --> 01:25:42,120
Speaker 1: you start from scratch?

1197
01:25:43,560 --> 01:25:49,960
Speaker 2: We really started from scratch. We made an arrangement with

1198
01:25:50,080 --> 01:25:58,599
Speaker 2: the city to buy a building, and they didn't give

1199
01:25:58,640 --> 01:26:01,479
Speaker 2: me any money, which some of the people in the

1200
01:26:01,520 --> 01:26:04,720
Speaker 2: town thought they had, which I found out later is

1201
01:26:04,800 --> 01:26:07,439
Speaker 2: usually part of these deals, but it wasn't part of mine.

1202
01:26:09,680 --> 01:26:13,080
Speaker 2: And the repairs cost more than I ever thought I

1203
01:26:13,120 --> 01:26:17,600
Speaker 2: would use to buy a house. But I owned the

1204
01:26:17,600 --> 01:26:21,799
Speaker 2: whole building and opened the shop on the ground floor

1205
01:26:22,040 --> 01:26:28,080
Speaker 2: street level, and it lived upstairs, lived upstairs, Mom and pop.

1206
01:26:29,280 --> 01:26:33,240
Speaker 1: Okay, so how do you make a business out of

1207
01:26:33,240 --> 01:26:34,240
Speaker 1: a violin store?

1208
01:26:36,000 --> 01:26:38,559
Speaker 2: Well, you know, that's that's what the city asked me.

1209
01:26:40,439 --> 01:26:45,600
Speaker 2: What's your business plan? I said, to sell violins, and

1210
01:26:46,040 --> 01:26:48,680
Speaker 2: they were very unhappy with that, you know, they told

1211
01:26:48,760 --> 01:26:52,120
Speaker 2: me all the things that one has to do, and

1212
01:26:52,200 --> 01:26:58,240
Speaker 2: I said, I cannot tell you how many violins I

1213
01:26:58,280 --> 01:27:03,360
Speaker 2: will sell in any months. I have no idea, nor

1214
01:27:03,400 --> 01:27:06,800
Speaker 2: do I know for how much they will be sold for,

1215
01:27:07,479 --> 01:27:11,400
Speaker 2: because violins are not all the same price. As a

1216
01:27:11,400 --> 01:27:12,960
Speaker 2: matter of fact, everyone is different.

1217
01:27:13,880 --> 01:27:14,080
Speaker 1: You know.

1218
01:27:14,560 --> 01:27:21,200
Speaker 2: It's a strange little business, but we got through it.

1219
01:27:21,920 --> 01:27:23,519
Speaker 1: Okay, So you open your store. What do you do

1220
01:27:23,560 --> 01:27:26,200
Speaker 1: for inventory?

1221
01:27:29,600 --> 01:27:37,720
Speaker 2: I bought things from the Chinese importers for the for

1222
01:27:37,800 --> 01:27:41,639
Speaker 2: the trade that we had to begin. In the beginning.

1223
01:27:41,680 --> 01:27:45,800
Speaker 2: People were only interested in getting something cheaply. And the

1224
01:27:45,920 --> 01:27:50,519
Speaker 2: Chinese violin factories are the best factories that have ever

1225
01:27:50,600 --> 01:27:54,840
Speaker 2: existed on the face of the earth. They make unbelievable

1226
01:27:54,880 --> 01:27:59,600
Speaker 2: instruments at a very low price. So that was satisfying

1227
01:27:59,640 --> 01:28:03,439
Speaker 2: to learn about that, and I bought things, and I

1228
01:28:03,479 --> 01:28:07,480
Speaker 2: bought things that were too expensive for our current clientele.

1229
01:28:08,439 --> 01:28:10,719
Speaker 2: But I figured if I didn't buy them, I would

1230
01:28:10,720 --> 01:28:14,719
Speaker 2: never sell them. And it's much nicer to have beautiful

1231
01:28:14,760 --> 01:28:20,720
Speaker 2: things around. So I would go to auctions. I had

1232
01:28:20,760 --> 01:28:30,240
Speaker 2: been doing that already for years. When I lived in Chicago.

1233
01:28:33,080 --> 01:28:38,880
Speaker 2: I actually made most of my living as a wholesaler

1234
01:28:38,920 --> 01:28:42,960
Speaker 2: of violins. Not that I sold seven at once, I

1235
01:28:43,040 --> 01:28:46,240
Speaker 2: sold one at a time, of different violins. I would

1236
01:28:46,320 --> 01:28:51,000
Speaker 2: go to Europe and I would buy in Europe and

1237
01:28:51,360 --> 01:28:54,559
Speaker 2: bring things back and sell them. And on the way

1238
01:28:54,560 --> 01:28:56,800
Speaker 2: i'd stop at the auctions. I might sell some at

1239
01:28:56,840 --> 01:29:01,120
Speaker 2: the auctions and buy some at the auctions, and I've

1240
01:29:01,160 --> 01:29:05,840
Speaker 2: learned an awful lot from doing that. I'd go to

1241
01:29:06,200 --> 01:29:13,879
Speaker 2: first to Paris, and sometimes to Belgium, sometimes to Germany,

1242
01:29:14,720 --> 01:29:17,800
Speaker 2: and then to London, where the auctions were, and then

1243
01:29:18,000 --> 01:29:22,400
Speaker 2: and then home. And you know, I didn't recall this

1244
01:29:22,439 --> 01:29:26,080
Speaker 2: when you were asking me about how I performed. You know,

1245
01:29:26,200 --> 01:29:28,680
Speaker 2: I didn't perform that much. Most of my living was

1246
01:29:28,720 --> 01:29:39,840
Speaker 2: from from buying and selling violins, and the the the

1247
01:29:39,920 --> 01:29:46,599
Speaker 2: violin shops in Chicago appreciated that I would buy from

1248
01:29:46,640 --> 01:29:50,840
Speaker 2: one shop and sell to another, because not everyone likes

1249
01:29:50,880 --> 01:29:56,400
Speaker 2: the same thing, and the head of one shop couldn't

1250
01:29:56,400 --> 01:30:00,720
Speaker 2: spare his time literally to go out and look over

1251
01:30:00,760 --> 01:30:04,559
Speaker 2: somebody else's inventory. So I would come to their shop

1252
01:30:04,640 --> 01:30:06,759
Speaker 2: with something that I found that I thought was good,

1253
01:30:07,240 --> 01:30:09,519
Speaker 2: and I you know, I learned.

1254
01:30:11,160 --> 01:30:15,040
Speaker 1: Okay, So when you have your shop in Delaware, how

1255
01:30:15,120 --> 01:30:17,000
Speaker 1: much inventory do you have? At one time?

1256
01:30:20,200 --> 01:30:21,800
Speaker 2: I never counted it, I.

1257
01:30:21,760 --> 01:30:23,400
Speaker 1: Mean hundreds, forty.

1258
01:30:26,640 --> 01:30:30,240
Speaker 2: I might have as little as forty really good fiddles

1259
01:30:30,360 --> 01:30:38,280
Speaker 2: and maybe maybe fifty Chinese fiddles, and then the inventory

1260
01:30:38,520 --> 01:30:47,040
Speaker 2: expanded with the nice fiddles. It didn't expand with the

1261
01:30:47,160 --> 01:30:50,760
Speaker 2: Chinese fiddles until I turned the shop over to the

1262
01:30:50,760 --> 01:30:55,000
Speaker 2: guys that worked in it with me. I don't run

1263
01:30:55,000 --> 01:30:56,080
Speaker 2: the shop any longer.

1264
01:30:57,520 --> 01:31:02,000
Speaker 1: So what would be the upper price range of some

1265
01:31:02,120 --> 01:31:03,160
Speaker 1: of the violins you.

1266
01:31:03,160 --> 01:31:09,000
Speaker 2: Sold that I actually sold or that I still have

1267
01:31:10,080 --> 01:31:11,040
Speaker 2: that are worth a lot.

1268
01:31:10,920 --> 01:31:12,880
Speaker 1: Of money that you actually sold?

1269
01:31:17,520 --> 01:31:21,160
Speaker 2: Well, I sold one for thirty five thousand.

1270
01:31:21,120 --> 01:31:25,280
Speaker 1: Okay, So at this point you don't own the shop anymore? Correct?

1271
01:31:25,720 --> 01:31:26,000
Speaker 2: Right?

1272
01:31:26,960 --> 01:31:28,599
Speaker 1: When did you stop owning the shop?

1273
01:31:30,400 --> 01:31:31,840
Speaker 2: The first of the of this year?

1274
01:31:32,360 --> 01:31:34,040
Speaker 1: Oh so just very recently.

1275
01:31:34,760 --> 01:31:38,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. I didn't sell it. I turned it

1276
01:31:38,280 --> 01:31:39,120
Speaker 2: over to the guys.

1277
01:31:40,000 --> 01:31:40,640
Speaker 1: Okay.

1278
01:31:40,880 --> 01:31:42,800
Speaker 2: They still have a lot of my instruments that they

1279
01:31:42,800 --> 01:31:43,400
Speaker 2: are selling.

1280
01:31:45,240 --> 01:31:51,280
Speaker 1: Okay. So how much of your business and your particular

1281
01:31:51,360 --> 01:31:52,559
Speaker 1: work went into repair?

1282
01:31:53,840 --> 01:31:58,439
Speaker 2: None? None of my work. The guys in the back room,

1283
01:31:58,600 --> 01:32:01,719
Speaker 2: they made their living mostly from repairs.

1284
01:32:03,040 --> 01:32:05,719
Speaker 1: And what's the retail on a Chinese violin.

1285
01:32:08,240 --> 01:32:11,040
Speaker 2: It depends on the quality. It usually starts around one

1286
01:32:11,080 --> 01:32:11,839
Speaker 2: thousand dollars.

1287
01:32:12,880 --> 01:32:15,840
Speaker 1: Okay. So the kids who were playing violins in school,

1288
01:32:15,840 --> 01:32:17,400
Speaker 1: where they getting their violins?

1289
01:32:18,720 --> 01:32:21,080
Speaker 2: I don't know where some of them got there. There

1290
01:32:21,160 --> 01:32:24,080
Speaker 2: were some eight hundred dollars fiddles, the seven hundred, and

1291
01:32:24,120 --> 01:32:30,200
Speaker 2: then some of the fractional violins were cheaper. I didn't

1292
01:32:30,479 --> 01:32:35,920
Speaker 2: like handling the very cheapest things because then you have

1293
01:32:36,000 --> 01:32:41,160
Speaker 2: to repair them. And repairing cheapest things is not like

1294
01:32:41,240 --> 01:32:45,960
Speaker 2: repairing a really fine instrument. It's a trial. And I

1295
01:32:46,000 --> 01:32:49,639
Speaker 2: didn't want to load that on the guys. I could

1296
01:32:49,680 --> 01:32:52,639
Speaker 2: have started a rental business, and I, you know, that's

1297
01:32:52,840 --> 01:32:58,759
Speaker 2: really meatball repair, I think. But strangely enough, the guys

1298
01:32:58,760 --> 01:33:02,000
Speaker 2: are doing that now for my shop from what used

1299
01:33:02,000 --> 01:33:02,679
Speaker 2: to be my shop.

1300
01:33:03,439 --> 01:33:07,000
Speaker 1: So what makes a strata varias so good.

1301
01:33:08,920 --> 01:33:15,960
Speaker 2: Stratavari's instruments his violins, because he made more than violins.

1302
01:33:16,920 --> 01:33:27,200
Speaker 2: He made also bows cello's viola's, guitars, and probably some

1303
01:33:27,280 --> 01:33:32,639
Speaker 2: other instruments. But his violins stood out from others because

1304
01:33:32,760 --> 01:33:36,880
Speaker 2: in a large concert hall, which were just beginning to

1305
01:33:36,960 --> 01:33:43,080
Speaker 2: be used when in Stratavari's day, it could be heard

1306
01:33:43,080 --> 01:33:47,080
Speaker 2: at the back of the of the hall without sounding loud,

1307
01:33:47,160 --> 01:33:50,480
Speaker 2: right in front of it. That's what made them desirable

1308
01:33:52,080 --> 01:33:58,919
Speaker 2: and placed them above most other instruments. There's some interesting

1309
01:33:59,640 --> 01:34:06,080
Speaker 2: things about the competition between modern violins and the old masters.

1310
01:34:08,080 --> 01:34:15,840
Speaker 2: Every time that there's a competition blindfold competition, the modern

1311
01:34:15,920 --> 01:34:21,160
Speaker 2: violin makers win. And I used to think, Okay, it

1312
01:34:21,240 --> 01:34:24,680
Speaker 2: depends on how they're set up and who's playing them

1313
01:34:23,880 --> 01:34:28,280
Speaker 2: and all that. But there was one recently that really

1314
01:34:28,960 --> 01:34:34,040
Speaker 2: impressed me where the owners of some fine violins even

1315
01:34:34,080 --> 01:34:37,479
Speaker 2: played their own violins, but they were blindfolded and they

1316
01:34:37,600 --> 01:34:40,000
Speaker 2: might not recognize them as their own. They all picked

1317
01:34:40,640 --> 01:34:44,720
Speaker 2: the modern ones, and it was not a question of

1318
01:34:44,840 --> 01:34:47,000
Speaker 2: set up or anything like that, because they were set

1319
01:34:47,120 --> 01:34:51,599
Speaker 2: up for these players or for one of these players.

1320
01:34:54,439 --> 01:34:57,080
Speaker 1: And so if you were going to get one of

1321
01:34:57,120 --> 01:34:59,599
Speaker 1: these modern violins, what's the retail price on that?

1322
01:35:05,439 --> 01:35:10,880
Speaker 2: There's a wide margin. I mean, if you buy a

1323
01:35:10,960 --> 01:35:14,280
Speaker 2: violin that was made in a violin making school, it's

1324
01:35:14,320 --> 01:35:19,800
Speaker 2: going to cost maybe two thousand dollars. If you buy

1325
01:35:19,840 --> 01:35:24,960
Speaker 2: it from Sam Zigmatovitch in Brooklyn, one of his violins,

1326
01:35:25,600 --> 01:35:30,320
Speaker 2: it's going to cost you six figures. And they're wonderful violins,

1327
01:35:30,640 --> 01:35:31,240
Speaker 2: They're worth it.

1328
01:35:32,600 --> 01:35:33,959
Speaker 1: So he makes them himself.

1329
01:35:34,479 --> 01:35:36,240
Speaker 2: He makes them himself in Brooklyn.

1330
01:35:37,360 --> 01:35:39,120
Speaker 1: How many violins can he make in a year?

1331
01:35:42,280 --> 01:35:48,719
Speaker 2: I don't really know. You know, people run at different speeds,

1332
01:35:48,760 --> 01:35:53,200
Speaker 2: and it was never something that interested me to find out.

1333
01:35:53,520 --> 01:35:56,880
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're running the violin shop for two decades,

1334
01:35:57,160 --> 01:36:00,559
Speaker 1: to what degree are you personally playing at that you'd

1335
01:36:00,600 --> 01:36:01,920
Speaker 1: lay all your instruments down.

1336
01:36:03,360 --> 01:36:07,360
Speaker 2: When I started the shop, I hadn't picked up a

1337
01:36:07,400 --> 01:36:13,440
Speaker 2: guitar in quite a while, and my playing had completely collapsed,

1338
01:36:14,840 --> 01:36:17,320
Speaker 2: and I decided I wanted to improve it. So I

1339
01:36:17,360 --> 01:36:23,320
Speaker 2: went to some jam sessions. And I originally went to

1340
01:36:24,240 --> 01:36:29,880
Speaker 2: a jam session with people whose skill was not beyond me,

1341
01:36:32,840 --> 01:36:35,559
Speaker 2: you know, people who are also trying to build their

1342
01:36:36,120 --> 01:36:42,040
Speaker 2: chops from pretty you know, not from an advanced place.

1343
01:36:43,200 --> 01:36:46,160
Speaker 2: And then I, after a year or so I was

1344
01:36:46,240 --> 01:36:52,040
Speaker 2: able to go to better jams. And I had been

1345
01:36:52,120 --> 01:36:58,880
Speaker 2: asked by the mayor of Wilmington to help bring back

1346
01:36:59,000 --> 01:37:03,479
Speaker 2: live music. And he told me the street that I

1347
01:37:03,520 --> 01:37:05,840
Speaker 2: lived on and my shop is on used to have

1348
01:37:05,920 --> 01:37:10,640
Speaker 2: live music all up and down it. Well, I'm not

1349
01:37:11,360 --> 01:37:13,400
Speaker 2: a club owner or a book or any of that.

1350
01:37:14,120 --> 01:37:16,639
Speaker 2: I figured the only thing I could do is start

1351
01:37:16,800 --> 01:37:27,559
Speaker 2: some jam sessions right on Market Street. And I did,

1352
01:37:29,880 --> 01:37:33,320
Speaker 2: and some really fine musicians would hear about them and come.

1353
01:37:34,439 --> 01:37:38,360
Speaker 2: So I started playing with some really great musicians again,

1354
01:37:39,600 --> 01:37:44,080
Speaker 2: and I started enjoying it again. So I decided to

1355
01:37:44,080 --> 01:37:45,440
Speaker 2: go back on the road.

1356
01:37:46,760 --> 01:37:51,519
Speaker 1: So when you decided, you basically say a twenty two

1357
01:37:51,800 --> 01:37:56,360
Speaker 1: year sabbatical. So that's the beginning of this century. How

1358
01:37:56,439 --> 01:37:58,400
Speaker 1: much you're working in the violin shop and how much

1359
01:37:58,400 --> 01:38:01,000
Speaker 1: you're working on your own career.

1360
01:38:02,720 --> 01:38:05,799
Speaker 2: It was mostly in the violin shop my own career.

1361
01:38:06,320 --> 01:38:09,040
Speaker 2: The violin shop takes place during the day and my

1362
01:38:09,120 --> 01:38:13,200
Speaker 2: career takes place at night. So I was able to

1363
01:38:13,240 --> 01:38:16,400
Speaker 2: do both at once, and sometimes I'd have to travel

1364
01:38:16,439 --> 01:38:21,080
Speaker 2: for a few gigs and the guys could keep the

1365
01:38:21,160 --> 01:38:25,800
Speaker 2: shop going. Wasn't a problem. You see, My function in

1366
01:38:25,840 --> 01:38:33,000
Speaker 2: that shop was to write appraisals and to buy and sell,

1367
01:38:34,280 --> 01:38:38,920
Speaker 2: to know what is what, what's real, what's a forgery?

1368
01:38:39,920 --> 01:38:45,160
Speaker 2: And I was sometimes very very good and sometimes very

1369
01:38:45,240 --> 01:38:49,080
Speaker 2: very bad at it. But that's kind of the way

1370
01:38:49,120 --> 01:38:51,479
Speaker 2: it goes. Well.

1371
01:38:51,520 --> 01:38:54,000
Speaker 1: At some point when you get back in your career,

1372
01:38:54,040 --> 01:38:57,360
Speaker 1: you're making albums, you know you're from the next year,

1373
01:38:57,400 --> 01:39:00,720
Speaker 1: you're back into it. Was it really that you were

1374
01:39:00,720 --> 01:39:05,240
Speaker 1: making and buying and selling violins and appraising violins and

1375
01:39:05,280 --> 01:39:08,120
Speaker 1: this was more of a hobby or was it chewing

1376
01:39:08,200 --> 01:39:09,200
Speaker 1: up more of your time?

1377
01:39:10,960 --> 01:39:15,639
Speaker 2: I think I think I was in the violin shop

1378
01:39:15,840 --> 01:39:17,160
Speaker 2: until I wasn't.

1379
01:39:18,600 --> 01:39:21,800
Speaker 1: Okay, so tell me more about these. Uh So you're

1380
01:39:21,840 --> 01:39:25,240
Speaker 1: at the Beacon and it's a series of shows.

1381
01:39:26,200 --> 01:39:27,080
Speaker 2: No, it's one show.

1382
01:39:27,520 --> 01:39:30,120
Speaker 1: One show, That's what I thought, Okay, my life? Is that?

1383
01:39:30,400 --> 01:39:32,320
Speaker 1: And is that the final show? Or is there a

1384
01:39:32,360 --> 01:39:33,240
Speaker 1: tour thereafter?

1385
01:39:35,360 --> 01:39:39,120
Speaker 2: There is no tour planned thereafter. I understand that one

1386
01:39:39,280 --> 01:39:42,720
Speaker 2: should never say never, so I'm not saying never, But

1387
01:39:42,880 --> 01:39:45,960
Speaker 2: as it looks now, that's probably the last one I'll do.

1388
01:39:47,800 --> 01:39:52,800
Speaker 1: Oh okay, And what are your emotions about it.

1389
01:39:54,800 --> 01:40:00,439
Speaker 2: I'm gonna miss the guys, and I might come to

1390
01:40:00,560 --> 01:40:05,160
Speaker 2: miss performing, but I don't know, you know, those twenty

1391
01:40:05,200 --> 01:40:09,439
Speaker 2: two years that hiatus I took, I never yearned to

1392
01:40:09,479 --> 01:40:14,720
Speaker 2: get back on stage, So you know I can give

1393
01:40:14,800 --> 01:40:20,920
Speaker 2: things up better than most people. I don't think I'm

1394
01:40:20,920 --> 01:40:21,959
Speaker 2: going to have a problem.

1395
01:40:23,439 --> 01:40:26,679
Speaker 1: Okay, So you take a very large band on stage,

1396
01:40:26,720 --> 01:40:28,000
Speaker 1: which the generation of that.

1397
01:40:30,360 --> 01:40:37,719
Speaker 2: I used to perform with a band just a little

1398
01:40:37,760 --> 01:40:39,840
Speaker 2: smaller than what I'm going to have on stage. I

1399
01:40:39,920 --> 01:40:49,639
Speaker 2: used to perform with a quintet plus two horns, and

1400
01:40:50,640 --> 01:40:54,320
Speaker 2: these days I've been mostly performing with a quintet, but

1401
01:40:54,439 --> 01:40:57,880
Speaker 2: occasionally I do big band gigs where I hire not

1402
01:40:57,960 --> 01:41:03,920
Speaker 2: two but three horns, three singers. And for this gig,

1403
01:41:05,200 --> 01:41:10,479
Speaker 2: we're going to have a keyboard player who recorded our

1404
01:41:10,600 --> 01:41:13,519
Speaker 2: last record with us. But I mean before that, he'd

1405
01:41:13,520 --> 01:41:16,880
Speaker 2: show up at gigs and we wouldn't rehearse. He knew

1406
01:41:16,880 --> 01:41:20,360
Speaker 2: all the tunes, he knew him cold, and he's a

1407
01:41:20,360 --> 01:41:22,800
Speaker 2: member of the band. His name is Dan Walker, and

1408
01:41:22,840 --> 01:41:25,760
Speaker 2: he's a brilliant player. Right now, he is out with

1409
01:41:26,200 --> 01:41:30,680
Speaker 2: Ann Wilson of Heart, and he asked her for the

1410
01:41:30,760 --> 01:41:33,840
Speaker 2: night off because he's on tour with her, and she

1411
01:41:34,080 --> 01:41:37,920
Speaker 2: very graciously gave him the night off so to play

1412
01:41:37,960 --> 01:41:38,200
Speaker 2: with her.

1413
01:41:38,200 --> 01:41:41,439
Speaker 1: If you're playing with this many players, are you making

1414
01:41:41,520 --> 01:41:43,799
Speaker 1: money or you're losing money? Generally speaking?

1415
01:41:46,040 --> 01:41:48,040
Speaker 2: This is a one off this gig.

1416
01:41:48,680 --> 01:41:50,960
Speaker 1: I understand, and this is the final gig. But before

1417
01:41:51,040 --> 01:41:55,760
Speaker 1: this you're taking out multiple players, maybe not ten but seven.

1418
01:41:55,640 --> 01:41:59,480
Speaker 2: The numbers work with seven was in the seventies.

1419
01:42:00,360 --> 01:42:04,240
Speaker 1: Okay, So in the gigs prior to this one, how

1420
01:42:04,240 --> 01:42:06,120
Speaker 1: many people would go out?

1421
01:42:06,479 --> 01:42:11,519
Speaker 2: Five including myself and six including the road manager, the

1422
01:42:11,840 --> 01:42:13,080
Speaker 2: tour manager.

1423
01:42:14,680 --> 01:42:18,000
Speaker 1: And with five people, you're making money?

1424
01:42:19,280 --> 01:42:20,080
Speaker 2: I made enough?

1425
01:42:21,280 --> 01:42:23,280
Speaker 1: How many? How big were these gigs? How many? What

1426
01:42:23,360 --> 01:42:25,360
Speaker 1: was the size of the halls you were playing?

1427
01:42:26,280 --> 01:42:31,640
Speaker 2: I played halls of different sizes in different cities. You know,

1428
01:42:31,760 --> 01:42:35,640
Speaker 2: if I'm going to play in San Francisco, I'm going

1429
01:42:35,680 --> 01:42:40,920
Speaker 2: to play a large room, or New York or New Jersey.

1430
01:42:41,840 --> 01:42:44,200
Speaker 2: But in some parts of the country, I have to

1431
01:42:44,200 --> 01:42:47,160
Speaker 2: settle for a smaller room.

1432
01:42:47,280 --> 01:42:49,719
Speaker 1: And you're gonna have special guests at this final show.

1433
01:42:50,120 --> 01:42:52,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm very excited about that.

1434
01:42:54,360 --> 01:42:56,000
Speaker 1: And can you reveal who those are?

1435
01:42:56,640 --> 01:42:59,240
Speaker 2: I can reveal. One of the two is Jeff Tweety.

1436
01:43:00,800 --> 01:43:03,280
Speaker 1: And do you know Jeff Tweety? How does he end

1437
01:43:03,360 --> 01:43:04,280
Speaker 1: up being on the show.

1438
01:43:05,800 --> 01:43:08,840
Speaker 2: It's kind of a funny story. He was one of

1439
01:43:08,840 --> 01:43:14,200
Speaker 2: the first people I thought of. I did some years

1440
01:43:14,240 --> 01:43:21,960
Speaker 2: ago a festival, an indoor festival in Chicago, and I

1441
01:43:22,040 --> 01:43:25,559
Speaker 2: was coming off the stage to my dressing room and

1442
01:43:25,640 --> 01:43:28,160
Speaker 2: Jeff Tweety was doing the same. He was a little

1443
01:43:28,160 --> 01:43:30,880
Speaker 2: bit ahead of me, and I called out ahead and

1444
01:43:30,960 --> 01:43:34,160
Speaker 2: I said Jeff, and he turned around. I said we

1445
01:43:34,160 --> 01:43:37,800
Speaker 2: should play together sometime, and he said yeah, and that

1446
01:43:37,960 --> 01:43:42,040
Speaker 2: was the end of it. So I was recently on

1447
01:43:42,080 --> 01:43:46,439
Speaker 2: a tour ship, on a cruise ship called Cayamo, and

1448
01:43:47,080 --> 01:43:52,840
Speaker 2: I was backstage having just come off, being about to

1449
01:43:52,880 --> 01:43:57,920
Speaker 2: go on again, and Jeff came off the stage. When

1450
01:43:57,960 --> 01:43:59,439
Speaker 2: he got to where I was, he pointed at me.

1451
01:43:59,479 --> 01:44:03,160
Speaker 2: He said, Bromberg. I said yeah. He said, I got

1452
01:44:03,160 --> 01:44:06,559
Speaker 2: to tell you. When you called to me backstage in Chicago,

1453
01:44:06,760 --> 01:44:12,760
Speaker 2: I was astounded that you knew who I was. I said,

1454
01:44:12,880 --> 01:44:16,639
Speaker 2: I was convinced you you didn't have any idea who

1455
01:44:16,680 --> 01:44:21,280
Speaker 2: I was. And so we both laughed about that and

1456
01:44:21,320 --> 01:44:23,360
Speaker 2: we decided, yes, we have to play together.

1457
01:44:25,240 --> 01:44:27,519
Speaker 1: Okay, so he'll be playing at the final gig. Just

1458
01:44:27,560 --> 01:44:33,600
Speaker 1: backing up over your sixty year time in the music business.

1459
01:44:34,320 --> 01:44:37,200
Speaker 1: Are you the type of person who makes and keeps

1460
01:44:37,320 --> 01:44:41,000
Speaker 1: relationships or are you more like for His Gum bumping

1461
01:44:41,040 --> 01:44:41,679
Speaker 1: into things.

1462
01:44:43,400 --> 01:44:47,599
Speaker 2: I'm probably more like Forrest Gump, but not completely. As

1463
01:44:47,640 --> 01:44:51,880
Speaker 2: I told you in my business, when you bump into

1464
01:44:51,920 --> 01:44:55,479
Speaker 2: somebody after no matter how many years, you can pick

1465
01:44:55,560 --> 01:44:56,720
Speaker 2: up your last conversation.

1466
01:44:58,960 --> 01:45:00,720
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, let me put it a different way.

1467
01:45:01,360 --> 01:45:05,360
Speaker 1: People who are not stars are not named performers, which

1468
01:45:05,360 --> 01:45:08,280
Speaker 1: you ultimately became when you signed your deal with Columbia,

1469
01:45:08,760 --> 01:45:12,519
Speaker 1: and they're making a living playing with other people. They're

1470
01:45:12,600 --> 01:45:15,920
Speaker 1: heavy networkers, most of them, and they have a group

1471
01:45:15,960 --> 01:45:17,800
Speaker 1: of people they're calling them all the time because they're

1472
01:45:17,840 --> 01:45:23,160
Speaker 1: looking to work. Was that your experience before you had

1473
01:45:23,160 --> 01:45:23,960
Speaker 1: your record deal?

1474
01:45:26,280 --> 01:45:29,400
Speaker 2: Well, there were there were a couple of instances like that,

1475
01:45:29,439 --> 01:45:32,920
Speaker 2: but it wasn't common. You know. There there was h

1476
01:45:34,240 --> 01:45:42,759
Speaker 2: uh huh a coffeehouse in uh uh in Michigan uh

1477
01:45:43,479 --> 01:45:46,960
Speaker 2: called the Arc and and the people who ran that

1478
01:45:48,200 --> 01:45:51,479
Speaker 2: would call me themselves, and you know, I'd speak to

1479
01:45:51,520 --> 01:45:54,240
Speaker 2: them and I'd go do it. But after after a

1480
01:45:54,280 --> 01:45:58,600
Speaker 2: certain amount of time, I had managers and agents.

1481
01:45:59,680 --> 01:46:02,760
Speaker 1: And they I'm talking about actually, yeah, I'm talking about

1482
01:46:02,760 --> 01:46:03,559
Speaker 1: more before that.

1483
01:46:05,160 --> 01:46:08,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a long time ago. Before that is a

1484
01:46:08,920 --> 01:46:09,840
Speaker 2: very long time ago.

1485
01:46:11,040 --> 01:46:14,519
Speaker 1: I mean, let's put it this way. You're in Wilmington, Okay, people, Well,

1486
01:46:14,560 --> 01:46:16,559
Speaker 1: people come into the store, so you end up having

1487
01:46:16,560 --> 01:46:20,960
Speaker 1: a socialization there. Let me jump ahead. So you sold

1488
01:46:21,000 --> 01:46:24,240
Speaker 1: the store, You're going to have the final gig. What

1489
01:46:24,240 --> 01:46:25,400
Speaker 1: are you going to do with your time?

1490
01:46:26,320 --> 01:46:28,320
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I did not sell the store.

1491
01:46:29,040 --> 01:46:30,880
Speaker 1: You gave the store away.

1492
01:46:30,280 --> 01:46:32,639
Speaker 2: I turned it over to the guys.

1493
01:46:33,080 --> 01:46:37,240
Speaker 1: Yes, and I have.

1494
01:46:41,120 --> 01:46:44,160
Speaker 2: I don't have it all any longer. But I had

1495
01:46:44,160 --> 01:46:49,559
Speaker 2: the largest collection of good violins made in the United

1496
01:46:49,600 --> 01:46:53,439
Speaker 2: States that there's ever been. At one point it was

1497
01:46:53,520 --> 01:46:57,519
Speaker 2: up to two hundred and sixty three instruments. That's a

1498
01:46:57,560 --> 01:47:07,000
Speaker 2: lot of violins. And now I'm selling them mostly to colleagues,

1499
01:47:07,120 --> 01:47:12,840
Speaker 2: to people who have their own stores. And I'm making

1500
01:47:12,880 --> 01:47:15,120
Speaker 2: sure I have photographs before i let one out of

1501
01:47:15,120 --> 01:47:20,080
Speaker 2: the building because I'm going to do a book. So

1502
01:47:20,400 --> 01:47:21,639
Speaker 2: that's going to take a while.

1503
01:47:23,320 --> 01:47:27,600
Speaker 1: Okay, So just going back to that story, if you

1504
01:47:27,640 --> 01:47:31,320
Speaker 1: have two hundred and sixty three violins, to what degree

1505
01:47:31,360 --> 01:47:34,360
Speaker 1: were people calling you up from across the country or

1506
01:47:34,360 --> 01:47:36,760
Speaker 1: the world saying, hey, you know I want something. It

1507
01:47:36,760 --> 01:47:38,680
Speaker 1: looks like you got something I got, as opposed to

1508
01:47:38,720 --> 01:47:40,240
Speaker 1: people in Wilmington.

1509
01:47:41,520 --> 01:47:49,080
Speaker 2: I got calls very frequently. I couldn't say how frequently.

1510
01:47:49,160 --> 01:47:54,680
Speaker 2: It wasn't quite once a week most weeks, but you know,

1511
01:47:54,760 --> 01:47:59,080
Speaker 2: every week or two, i'd get a call from a

1512
01:47:59,120 --> 01:48:09,120
Speaker 2: colleague who wanted to know the value of an American

1513
01:48:09,200 --> 01:48:14,000
Speaker 2: violin he had, And they would seldom put it in

1514
01:48:14,040 --> 01:48:16,360
Speaker 2: those terms, but that's what it boiled down to always,

1515
01:48:17,840 --> 01:48:23,280
Speaker 2: and with my collection, I became the world's expert violence

1516
01:48:23,320 --> 01:48:26,400
Speaker 2: made in the United States. It's very embarrassing to pat

1517
01:48:26,439 --> 01:48:29,280
Speaker 2: myself on the back like that, but if you ask

1518
01:48:29,360 --> 01:48:32,920
Speaker 2: any violin dealer who knows about American violins, you'll hear

1519
01:48:32,960 --> 01:48:41,639
Speaker 2: my name. So I would also get calls from people

1520
01:48:41,680 --> 01:48:46,000
Speaker 2: who had an American violin that they inherited and they

1521
01:48:46,000 --> 01:48:46,880
Speaker 2: wanted to sell them.

1522
01:48:48,880 --> 01:48:51,200
Speaker 1: What's the most you ever paid for a violin?

1523
01:48:53,920 --> 01:48:55,759
Speaker 2: Probably around fifteen thousand dollars?

1524
01:48:57,160 --> 01:48:59,799
Speaker 1: Okay, So let's assume you buy a violin for fifteen

1525
01:49:00,800 --> 01:49:02,479
Speaker 1: What could you then sell it for?

1526
01:49:04,080 --> 01:49:06,799
Speaker 2: Well, that's the key. I wouldn't buy it for fifteen

1527
01:49:06,840 --> 01:49:08,559
Speaker 2: if I didn't think I could sell it for a

1528
01:49:08,600 --> 01:49:12,360
Speaker 2: good profit. I cannot remember one specifically that I paid

1529
01:49:12,400 --> 01:49:15,439
Speaker 2: that much for, but I think that's about the tops.

1530
01:49:15,479 --> 01:49:17,479
Speaker 2: If not, then it would be ten or twelve, but

1531
01:49:18,360 --> 01:49:21,720
Speaker 2: it would vary from instrument to instrument. These every one

1532
01:49:21,760 --> 01:49:24,960
Speaker 2: of them is different, and every one of them, even

1533
01:49:25,160 --> 01:49:29,680
Speaker 2: by the same maker, is different. He finished this on

1534
01:49:29,720 --> 01:49:35,160
Speaker 2: a good day. He finished this on a bad day.

1535
01:49:35,240 --> 01:49:37,840
Speaker 2: He had a lot of assistance working on this one.

1536
01:49:37,880 --> 01:49:40,200
Speaker 2: But this one is all as far as I can

1537
01:49:40,240 --> 01:49:45,160
Speaker 2: see his work. You know, this is a really this

1538
01:49:45,240 --> 01:49:49,920
Speaker 2: is a business of one offs, aside from factory violins,

1539
01:49:51,160 --> 01:49:53,240
Speaker 2: and even those are different one to another.

1540
01:49:54,040 --> 01:49:58,600
Speaker 1: Okay, so if it's like a ten thousand dollars you

1541
01:49:58,800 --> 01:50:01,879
Speaker 1: pay your goal, it would be one hundred percent markup.

1542
01:50:01,960 --> 01:50:05,040
Speaker 1: What would your goal be? I realized every deal was different.

1543
01:50:05,320 --> 01:50:08,639
Speaker 1: But if you're bothering to buy a violin, how much

1544
01:50:09,000 --> 01:50:10,639
Speaker 1: more would you hope to sell it for?

1545
01:50:11,280 --> 01:50:15,040
Speaker 2: How much do I like it? That's going to determine

1546
01:50:15,040 --> 01:50:20,880
Speaker 2: whether I buy it or not? And I don't have

1547
01:50:20,960 --> 01:50:24,679
Speaker 2: a rule of well I got a leuble of my money.

1548
01:50:24,960 --> 01:50:28,120
Speaker 2: First of all, with really good violins, the better you get,

1549
01:50:28,600 --> 01:50:33,280
Speaker 2: the lower the proportion percentage of profit it is.

1550
01:50:35,040 --> 01:50:42,120
Speaker 1: So, you know, was the store ever broken into no?

1551
01:50:43,360 --> 01:50:46,599
Speaker 1: And generally speaking, when people came in to buy an

1552
01:50:46,680 --> 01:50:49,360
Speaker 1: expensive violin, did they know what they were looking for,

1553
01:50:49,680 --> 01:50:51,920
Speaker 1: or did you basically have to tell them you want this,

1554
01:50:52,080 --> 01:50:53,120
Speaker 1: this is the one you want.

1555
01:50:55,320 --> 01:50:57,960
Speaker 2: I never told people this is the one you want.

1556
01:50:58,320 --> 01:51:02,120
Speaker 2: They have to decide for themselves islans or personal things,

1557
01:51:02,160 --> 01:51:04,360
Speaker 2: and so are the bows, which by the way, can

1558
01:51:04,439 --> 01:51:11,720
Speaker 2: get extremely valuable. The way I would work it is

1559
01:51:11,760 --> 01:51:14,240
Speaker 2: the way most shops, to my knowledge work it. You

1560
01:51:14,400 --> 01:51:17,599
Speaker 2: have to find out, give me an idea of your budget,

1561
01:51:18,640 --> 01:51:21,320
Speaker 2: and I'll show you things within your budget. And I

1562
01:51:21,400 --> 01:51:24,080
Speaker 2: would never show anything more expensive to drag them up,

1563
01:51:24,120 --> 01:51:31,200
Speaker 2: although some shops do that. I'd always find things within

1564
01:51:31,360 --> 01:51:33,320
Speaker 2: or below their stated budget.

1565
01:51:35,520 --> 01:51:37,719
Speaker 1: So you live it in Wilmington. You ever meet Joe Biden?

1566
01:51:38,800 --> 01:51:41,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, I met him right in front of my store

1567
01:51:41,920 --> 01:51:42,640
Speaker 2: one afternoon.

1568
01:51:44,200 --> 01:51:46,400
Speaker 1: What were the circumstances, What was your experience?

1569
01:51:47,400 --> 01:51:50,680
Speaker 2: Well, at the time, he was the vice president and

1570
01:51:51,880 --> 01:51:54,400
Speaker 2: we shook hands and I told him that was my store,

1571
01:51:54,520 --> 01:51:57,439
Speaker 2: and I don't remember if we said it any more

1572
01:51:57,520 --> 01:52:03,000
Speaker 2: than that. You know, it was just well, hello, and

1573
01:52:03,120 --> 01:52:05,839
Speaker 2: I had a store in his hometown.

1574
01:52:06,880 --> 01:52:08,640
Speaker 1: But would he was just walking down the street or

1575
01:52:08,680 --> 01:52:10,120
Speaker 1: he's doing a campaign and then.

1576
01:52:10,960 --> 01:52:13,920
Speaker 2: I think there might have been a parade that day

1577
01:52:14,800 --> 01:52:17,240
Speaker 2: and he was out to see it as my guess,

1578
01:52:18,000 --> 01:52:20,680
Speaker 2: But you know, I really don't know.

1579
01:52:21,720 --> 01:52:24,040
Speaker 1: Okay, if you had to do it all over again,

1580
01:52:24,120 --> 01:52:26,080
Speaker 1: and I can tell you're the type of guy who

1581
01:52:26,160 --> 01:52:28,160
Speaker 1: feels it had to play out the way it did.

1582
01:52:29,520 --> 01:52:32,360
Speaker 1: Would you have gone to violin making school, would you've

1583
01:52:32,479 --> 01:52:36,040
Speaker 1: opened the shop, taken this hiatus? What would you have done?

1584
01:52:38,160 --> 01:52:42,639
Speaker 2: Depends who I am. I've been different people at different

1585
01:52:42,640 --> 01:52:45,920
Speaker 2: times in my life, you know what I mean? Always

1586
01:52:46,080 --> 01:52:51,320
Speaker 2: absolutely yeah, So it depends who I am when I'm

1587
01:52:51,360 --> 01:52:52,519
Speaker 2: asked to make that decision.

1588
01:52:53,760 --> 01:52:54,920
Speaker 1: And what are your kids up to?

1589
01:52:57,040 --> 01:53:01,240
Speaker 2: Well? My daughter lives in Wilmington and she is a

1590
01:53:01,520 --> 01:53:07,400
Speaker 2: very well trained nanny. She she knows all of the

1591
01:53:08,240 --> 01:53:10,960
Speaker 2: concussion protocols and the broken you know, what to do

1592
01:53:11,040 --> 01:53:13,800
Speaker 2: with a child who heards. She's really very skilled at

1593
01:53:13,840 --> 01:53:17,040
Speaker 2: that and at relating to the children. She loves them

1594
01:53:17,800 --> 01:53:23,200
Speaker 2: and that's that's her work. My son is a real anomaly.

1595
01:53:23,960 --> 01:53:27,639
Speaker 2: My son lives in Paris with his wife and two children,

1596
01:53:29,120 --> 01:53:33,439
Speaker 2: and he is the only person I know who gets

1597
01:53:33,479 --> 01:53:39,000
Speaker 2: paid for poetry, writing poetry. Do you know anybody who

1598
01:53:39,000 --> 01:53:40,240
Speaker 2: gets paid for writing poetry?

1599
01:53:40,680 --> 01:53:45,920
Speaker 1: No? I don't, Mary Carr. Maybe one who Mary Carr?

1600
01:53:46,840 --> 01:53:50,439
Speaker 2: Ah? Okay, well, I don't know Mary Carr, but I

1601
01:53:50,560 --> 01:53:56,920
Speaker 2: know Jacob. And but even so, as remarkable as it is,

1602
01:53:57,640 --> 01:53:59,640
Speaker 2: you don't get you don't get paid much for it.

1603
01:54:01,560 --> 01:54:08,080
Speaker 2: He does a lot of translating French to English for museums,

1604
01:54:09,520 --> 01:54:15,200
Speaker 2: and he has worked as for different organizations as the

1605
01:54:15,920 --> 01:54:21,840
Speaker 2: as the organizer of their conventions, so he does a

1606
01:54:21,960 --> 01:54:22,840
Speaker 2: variety of things.

1607
01:54:25,920 --> 01:54:28,880
Speaker 1: Okay, David, I think we've covered it here, and I

1608
01:54:28,960 --> 01:54:32,280
Speaker 1: want to thank you for taking the time to speak

1609
01:54:32,320 --> 01:54:33,120
Speaker 1: with my audience.

1610
01:54:34,520 --> 01:54:37,080
Speaker 2: It's been my pleasure and it's nice to talk to

1611
01:54:37,880 --> 01:54:41,840
Speaker 2: an interviewer who's done his research. I'm very happy to

1612
01:54:42,000 --> 01:54:42,520
Speaker 2: have met well.

1613
01:54:42,640 --> 01:54:44,360
Speaker 1: You know, as I said, I've lived through your whole

1614
01:54:44,480 --> 01:54:47,400
Speaker 1: career from Afar, you know, seeing you in the pages

1615
01:54:47,440 --> 01:54:50,560
Speaker 1: of as I say, when you stop to make violins,

1616
01:54:50,680 --> 01:54:56,400
Speaker 1: that's something you know that was out of deviated from

1617
01:54:56,480 --> 01:54:59,120
Speaker 1: the norm and was very interesting to me. And I'm

1618
01:54:59,160 --> 01:55:03,480
Speaker 1: glad we got the call. In any event, until next time,

1619
01:55:03,760 --> 01:55:27,320
Speaker 1: This is Bob left. Six h