WEBVTT - Stevie Van Zandt 0:00:15.436 --> 0:00:23.636 Pushkin. Hey, I'm really excited about today's guest. About a 0:00:23.716 --> 0:00:25.996 year ago we had the boss on and today we 0:00:26.076 --> 0:00:30.236 have the ultimate underboss, Stevie Van zanne. His first big 0:00:30.276 --> 0:00:33.036 break came in the mid seventies as Bruce Springsteen's right 0:00:33.076 --> 0:00:35.916 hand man, guitarist and occasional co producer in the E 0:00:36.036 --> 0:00:39.796 Street Band. Later, he seamlessly made the jump to acting 0:00:39.876 --> 0:00:45.516 as one of Tony Soprano's key consiglieri's sill on The Sopranos. Recently, 0:00:45.596 --> 0:00:50.236 van Zandt released his memoir Unrequited Infatuations, which details his 0:00:50.316 --> 0:00:53.516 career over the past fifty years Delvin, of course in 0:00:53.596 --> 0:00:57.676 the Street Band, but also in his endeavors as a producer, actor, 0:00:57.996 --> 0:01:02.276 solo artist and activist, including his nineteen eighty five stand 0:01:02.276 --> 0:01:06.236 against South Africa's oppressive regime when he created Artists United 0:01:06.276 --> 0:01:09.916 Against apartheide and recorded the protest songs on City, which 0:01:09.916 --> 0:01:12.836 includes cameos from a slew of artists like You Two, 0:01:13.116 --> 0:01:18.196 Mellie mel Run DMC, and Miles Davis. On today's episode, 0:01:18.236 --> 0:01:20.676 Bruce Headlam talks to Van Zant about the budding New 0:01:20.716 --> 0:01:23.316 Jersey rock and roll scene in the sixties and what 0:01:23.356 --> 0:01:25.956 it was like recording with legendary R and B singers 0:01:26.036 --> 0:01:30.076 like Ronnie Spector and Darlene Love. He also reminisces about 0:01:30.116 --> 0:01:33.236 first meeting Springsteen, who Van Zandt says he saw go 0:01:33.436 --> 0:01:35.516 from a shy kid who was too timid to speak 0:01:35.756 --> 0:01:40.196 to one of the greatest entertainers of our time. This 0:01:40.396 --> 0:01:43.396 is broken round minor notes for the digital age. I'm 0:01:43.436 --> 0:01:49.236 justin Richard. Here's Bruce Headlam with Stevie Van Zane. Well, 0:01:49.276 --> 0:01:51.316 thank you, first of all so much for doing this 0:01:51.596 --> 0:01:58.076 my pleasure. You're singer, songwriter, arranger, producer, award winning actor, 0:01:58.596 --> 0:02:00.716 a creator of and I didn't realize this, the two 0:02:00.756 --> 0:02:04.876 best channels on satellite radio. You also created an outlaw 0:02:04.916 --> 0:02:09.076 country as well as Underground Garage, member of the Street Band, 0:02:09.236 --> 0:02:12.236 and now you're an author. You're the author of a 0:02:12.316 --> 0:02:17.356 new book, Unrequited Infatuations. And there's a lot of requited 0:02:17.636 --> 0:02:20.516 infatuations in the book and some unrequited. We're going to 0:02:20.596 --> 0:02:23.716 talk about them both because it's a theme that runs 0:02:23.756 --> 0:02:27.436 through the book. And you call yourself a consigulary that 0:02:27.716 --> 0:02:30.436 so many times in your life you seem to be 0:02:30.436 --> 0:02:35.116 in this position of having to say something to somebody 0:02:35.196 --> 0:02:38.116 that is so obviously in their self interest and they 0:02:38.196 --> 0:02:41.716 can't quite see it. Were you always that kind of guy? 0:02:41.956 --> 0:02:46.236 Were you always the guy that wasn't afraid to give advice? 0:02:47.076 --> 0:02:50.876 It's certainly I feel part of the obligation of being 0:02:50.916 --> 0:02:54.876 somebody's friend, you know, So it certainly starts there. But 0:02:55.036 --> 0:02:57.916 as you suggest, I have done that with people who 0:02:57.996 --> 0:03:02.436 are not friends. Yeah. And I didn't know this part 0:03:02.436 --> 0:03:04.556 of my brain existed, and I talked about that in 0:03:04.556 --> 0:03:07.556 the book. I mean, I went through the sixties not 0:03:07.716 --> 0:03:10.676 a political thought in my head. Now could you imagine 0:03:10.716 --> 0:03:12.836 such a thing? You know. There was a few things 0:03:12.836 --> 0:03:17.236 going on in the sixties, you know, and I ignored 0:03:17.436 --> 0:03:20.316 all of it. It didn't hit me till the eighties, 0:03:20.996 --> 0:03:23.836 all right, which so I'm already what am I by then? 0:03:23.916 --> 0:03:29.156 I'm in my thirties, And suddenly I just discovered this 0:03:29.236 --> 0:03:32.916 other part of my brain that has the ability to 0:03:33.516 --> 0:03:41.316 reason and and and see logical solutions to complicated problems, 0:03:41.636 --> 0:03:44.156 which was a big surprise to me because I live 0:03:44.196 --> 0:03:48.716 in chaos all the time and in my head, and 0:03:48.756 --> 0:03:51.756 I think every artist does. I think that's partly why 0:03:51.796 --> 0:03:54.676 an artist becomes an artist. I believe to try and 0:03:54.716 --> 0:03:58.676 make some order out of the chaos. You know, something tangible, 0:03:58.796 --> 0:04:01.476 you can see it, touch it, you know. That's so 0:04:02.276 --> 0:04:04.236 that's such a relief, you know, when you walk around 0:04:04.276 --> 0:04:06.796 with all this crazy shit in your head, to actually 0:04:06.836 --> 0:04:09.996 be able to see your work and you that you exist, 0:04:10.116 --> 0:04:12.516 you know, some proof of your existence. You know. So 0:04:12.636 --> 0:04:16.236 I guess, to quote Hyman Roth or to misquote them, 0:04:16.316 --> 0:04:19.716 this is not the business you chose, The business chose you. 0:04:20.076 --> 0:04:23.996 This is this is a role you figured out for yourself. Yeah, 0:04:24.196 --> 0:04:26.596 and and and you know, growing up in a renaissance 0:04:26.636 --> 0:04:28.796 as I did, you really had to have a distinct 0:04:28.876 --> 0:04:33.196 identity as an artist. And that would change come the seventies, 0:04:33.236 --> 0:04:35.956 you know, the hybrids would begin. We no longer were 0:04:35.956 --> 0:04:38.796 a mono culture, and we were very much a mono 0:04:38.876 --> 0:04:44.396 culture in the sixties. Surprisingly or musically, um, I would say, 0:04:44.396 --> 0:04:47.556 even artistically, you know, possibly you could make an argument 0:04:47.556 --> 0:04:49.356 for that that we're you know, we all kind of 0:04:49.396 --> 0:04:53.116 like the same art, you know, in a way. You 0:04:53.196 --> 0:04:55.356 bring up a good point. I wanted to ask you. 0:04:55.796 --> 0:04:58.716 So many musicians I've talked to talk about seeing the 0:04:58.716 --> 0:05:01.796 Beatles for the first time on The Ed Sullivan Show, 0:05:02.196 --> 0:05:05.076 but you had to take that I've never I've never 0:05:05.076 --> 0:05:07.436 heard anybody else have. When you saw them, there was 0:05:07.476 --> 0:05:11.116 something that you saw that you loved. Well, I don't 0:05:11.116 --> 0:05:14.036 know how different it was from everybody else, but I saw, 0:05:14.916 --> 0:05:18.876 you know, hope from my life, which had not been 0:05:18.996 --> 0:05:22.916 very clear at that point. I just was rejecting everything 0:05:22.956 --> 0:05:26.956 society was offering me as options, and suddenly it was 0:05:26.996 --> 0:05:32.636 this really new world. You know, I've never seen a 0:05:32.676 --> 0:05:36.476 band before. You didn't see four or five guys playing 0:05:36.476 --> 0:05:41.756 and singing. I mean, you just didn't exist. Band is uh, 0:05:41.796 --> 0:05:45.596 it's communicating. It's not it's not me, it's us. It's 0:05:45.636 --> 0:05:48.556 the gang, it's the it's the posse, it's it's the family, 0:05:48.596 --> 0:05:53.796 it's the it's friendship. And they do ultimately communicate community, 0:05:54.436 --> 0:05:57.156 and that's what attracted me and I and I and 0:05:57.196 --> 0:06:00.156 I always combined it with the Rolling Stones coming four 0:06:00.196 --> 0:06:04.556 months later, because the Beatles were so good and so different. 0:06:05.676 --> 0:06:09.276 You know, they just were perfect, perfect harmony. You know, everything, 0:06:09.276 --> 0:06:12.916 the hair, the clothes, it was all new, all new, 0:06:13.236 --> 0:06:16.076 and never see anything like it, but I'm sure it 0:06:16.156 --> 0:06:19.196 was exciting. But then four months later, here comes the 0:06:19.276 --> 0:06:22.196 Rolling Stones and they're dressing like whatever they feel like. 0:06:22.796 --> 0:06:25.956 The hair is not perfect except for Brian Jones. Uh, 0:06:26.276 --> 0:06:29.076 you know, there's no harmony to speak of. And they 0:06:29.116 --> 0:06:30.996 make it look easier than it is, you know, they're 0:06:31.036 --> 0:06:34.916 they're very casual about it. The most impressive thing to me, 0:06:34.956 --> 0:06:39.236 and I think the biggest moment was seeing that Mick 0:06:39.316 --> 0:06:45.916 Jagger did not smile. And this was another another epiphany, 0:06:46.036 --> 0:06:50.956 you know, that that said, this isn't show business because 0:06:50.956 --> 0:06:54.636 I wasn't interested in show business then. I like it now, 0:06:55.236 --> 0:06:57.876 but I didn't back then. You know, you're building your 0:06:57.916 --> 0:07:02.276 identity and you are what you like, you know, and 0:07:02.436 --> 0:07:06.036 so the fact that he didn't smile said this is 0:07:06.156 --> 0:07:09.076 not show business. This is uh, this is the lifestyle. 0:07:10.276 --> 0:07:12.196 And I and I said, I want, I want, I 0:07:12.236 --> 0:07:15.956 want that lifestyle. It's interesting. The Stones made it seem 0:07:16.036 --> 0:07:18.996 like more of a possibility though. Yeah. They were really 0:07:18.996 --> 0:07:21.636 the first punk band. They did exactly what the punks 0:07:21.636 --> 0:07:24.516 did in the seventies, which was make it look easy. 0:07:25.276 --> 0:07:29.076 Learned three chords and and and you know, make a record, yeah, 0:07:29.276 --> 0:07:32.796 forget about all that. Yes, and Rush you know, and 0:07:33.716 --> 0:07:36.916 Emerson Lake and Palmer stuff. You know, just play a 0:07:36.916 --> 0:07:39.516 couple of chords and turn it up. You know. She 0:07:39.796 --> 0:07:41.636 se that was the stuff I was exposed to when 0:07:41.636 --> 0:07:43.316 I was a kid, and I never became a musician 0:07:43.356 --> 0:07:46.556 because I thought that's too hard, and that was extremely 0:07:46.676 --> 0:07:49.676 you know, evolved, sophisticated, you know, part of the business, 0:07:49.796 --> 0:07:53.636 you know. But the Stones were, you know, they they 0:07:53.636 --> 0:07:56.876 were missionaries for the blues and an early R and B. 0:07:57.676 --> 0:08:01.756 And they're great accomplishment which nobody ever gives them credit for. 0:08:02.596 --> 0:08:05.356 They were never a pop band, and the fact that 0:08:05.396 --> 0:08:07.596 they crossed over to the pop charts, you know, for 0:08:07.756 --> 0:08:13.596 fifty years, there's a rather remarkable achievement. Yeah. Was it 0:08:13.716 --> 0:08:18.236 through those British artists than you learned more about American music? Yeah, 0:08:18.436 --> 0:08:20.716 forget it. I never heard of Chuck Berry. I never 0:08:20.716 --> 0:08:23.836 heard about the Muddy Waters. No, why why would I? 0:08:24.036 --> 0:08:26.916 How would I? They weren't on a radio, not when 0:08:26.916 --> 0:08:28.916 I was not when I was a teenager. All the 0:08:28.956 --> 0:08:33.516 pioneers had come and gone blues. Well you never heard it. 0:08:33.636 --> 0:08:36.396 Where would you hear blues? You know? So all that 0:08:36.436 --> 0:08:39.596 stuff was brand new to me. We didn't know who 0:08:39.636 --> 0:08:42.356 who was writing what. I didn't even think about that, 0:08:42.436 --> 0:08:46.436 you know, until later, untill they till they started talking 0:08:46.476 --> 0:08:49.916 about those guys, you know, and they were they were 0:08:50.396 --> 0:08:54.836 putting their influences right on their sleeves, and and uh 0:08:54.916 --> 0:08:58.796 and and really promoting those artists and and and thankfully 0:08:58.836 --> 0:09:02.876 they did and uh we got a chance to learn 0:09:02.876 --> 0:09:05.836 all about our own music. Then when did the band 0:09:05.996 --> 0:09:09.276 start for you? When did you start playing in a band? Um? 0:09:09.396 --> 0:09:12.836 I remember exactly because I started as a singer with 0:09:13.396 --> 0:09:18.156 a neighbor's band called the Shadows. And I remember the 0:09:18.196 --> 0:09:19.836 first thing I did on stage was singing like a 0:09:19.916 --> 0:09:24.156 rolling stone. So it would have been sixty five, And 0:09:24.196 --> 0:09:27.276 then I started learning to play a guitar and I 0:09:27.396 --> 0:09:30.756 got pretty good. I think I started my own band 0:09:31.676 --> 0:09:36.916 would have been maybe sixty six into sixty seven. I 0:09:36.956 --> 0:09:39.756 started my band The Source, at which point I was, 0:09:41.036 --> 0:09:43.836 you know, lead guitar and singer. But I started off 0:09:43.836 --> 0:09:47.316 as just a singer. We hear now so much about 0:09:47.356 --> 0:09:50.556 that Jersey scene and all the musicians that came out 0:09:50.596 --> 0:09:52.156 of it. Can you tell me what was it like 0:09:52.636 --> 0:09:55.116 when you started, when you were looking around for clubs 0:09:55.196 --> 0:10:00.956 places to play. There's like three stages of the rock life. 0:10:01.516 --> 0:10:06.596 You know. There's the teenage years, which is the most fun, 0:10:06.756 --> 0:10:11.596 especially in those days because it was just being invented, 0:10:13.196 --> 0:10:17.716 which meant The adults had no idea what you were 0:10:17.716 --> 0:10:21.996 doing and would not think to try and tell you 0:10:22.036 --> 0:10:26.236 what to do, So you had complete freedom, which was 0:10:26.276 --> 0:10:29.036 a lot of fun and that and that lasted until 0:10:29.036 --> 0:10:31.756 you got to the bar. The bar years, which is 0:10:31.756 --> 0:10:37.196 a second stage, and that's a whole different story. They 0:10:37.276 --> 0:10:39.476 told you exactly what to play. You had to play 0:10:39.556 --> 0:10:42.396 top forty, and you had to look a certain way, 0:10:42.596 --> 0:10:47.156 and there were these show bands that were all very popular. 0:10:47.556 --> 0:10:50.916 You had to be extremely good at copying records and 0:10:51.876 --> 0:10:54.476 make sure you did it exactly right before you got 0:10:54.476 --> 0:10:56.676 to the bar scene. Were there like clubs that kids 0:10:56.676 --> 0:10:59.556 could go to because the drinking age was still twenty 0:10:59.556 --> 0:11:01.836 one in New Jersey back when you were doing it, 0:11:01.876 --> 0:11:03.476 So was there a place like an eighteen year old 0:11:03.516 --> 0:11:05.596 could go and hear a band? Well, it was better 0:11:05.596 --> 0:11:08.756 than that. We had teenage nightclubs. You might have had 0:11:08.756 --> 0:11:13.956 to be I don't know, well, Latin devous. I don't 0:11:13.996 --> 0:11:15.836 know if there was a minimum age to get into 0:11:15.916 --> 0:11:19.956 La teen Devous. Anyway, it was there were teenage clubs 0:11:20.156 --> 0:11:23.636 and upstage in Asbury Park was up a little different 0:11:23.636 --> 0:11:25.276 because it was open from eight o'clock at night till 0:11:25.316 --> 0:11:27.036 five in the morning. So I think you had to 0:11:27.076 --> 0:11:29.036 be You might have had to be sixteen to get 0:11:29.076 --> 0:11:32.716 in that one. But there were clubs and all kinds 0:11:32.716 --> 0:11:35.476 of places to play. We were we were working like 0:11:35.556 --> 0:11:39.036 crazy all the time. I mean high school dances, the 0:11:39.156 --> 0:11:44.396 VFW halls, the beach clubs. I mean Bruce used to 0:11:44.516 --> 0:11:49.476 joke about these, you know. Uh, you know, if you 0:11:49.516 --> 0:11:51.956 wanted if you wanted this new thing called rock and 0:11:52.036 --> 0:11:56.116 hall in your club, you had to go to the kids, 0:11:57.676 --> 0:12:01.916 you know, because the older bands that were the show 0:12:01.956 --> 0:12:06.636 bands or the the wedding bands, they didn't get it yet. 0:12:07.316 --> 0:12:11.356 They weren't they weren't playing this rock stuff yet. So 0:12:11.916 --> 0:12:13.636 you know, if you want to hire a you know, 0:12:13.876 --> 0:12:16.956 rock and roll band, you had to hire fifteen year 0:12:16.956 --> 0:12:19.676 olds because they're the only one's doing it. It's a 0:12:19.876 --> 0:12:22.716 fascinating thing to think about, you know. Can I ask 0:12:22.756 --> 0:12:25.836 you just for a minute to talk about Ronnie Specter, 0:12:25.956 --> 0:12:29.356 who was an important, really important person in your life, 0:12:29.356 --> 0:12:32.156 and you are an important person in hers. Yeah, yeah, 0:12:32.276 --> 0:12:36.076 we we um. Of course. You know, everybody had fallen 0:12:36.076 --> 0:12:40.396 in love with with her voice, and and and in 0:12:40.436 --> 0:12:46.636 that late sixteenth early seventies period really became reacquainted with 0:12:46.676 --> 0:12:49.636 all that, all of those oldies, you know that we're 0:12:50.116 --> 0:12:53.396 just you know, seventy seven years earlier or whatever. You know, 0:12:54.876 --> 0:12:58.156 things were happening very quickly in those days. Uh so, 0:12:58.436 --> 0:13:00.516 you know, become reacquainted with with all that, all of 0:13:00.556 --> 0:13:04.916 that pioneer stuff, and just I fell in love with 0:13:04.956 --> 0:13:07.396 the whole girl group thing. What was she like in 0:13:07.396 --> 0:13:09.836 the studio? What was she like to be in that 0:13:09.916 --> 0:13:12.676 studio with that voice? You're a little nervous because you 0:13:12.716 --> 0:13:14.476 know it had been a while and she and she. 0:13:16.076 --> 0:13:19.996 I mean the thing about every all the fifties and 0:13:20.076 --> 0:13:22.876 sixties artists that I've worked with, and I worked with 0:13:22.956 --> 0:13:28.596 quite a few, it's always a joy because they're just better. 0:13:29.396 --> 0:13:32.316 You know, they're better because they had to be better. 0:13:33.036 --> 0:13:36.796 You know, there's no auto tune in those days, and 0:13:36.836 --> 0:13:39.476 it was not even that much editing. I mean, they 0:13:39.516 --> 0:13:42.076 did a little bit, but you basically had to sing 0:13:42.116 --> 0:13:44.036 a song from beginning to end and sing it in 0:13:44.076 --> 0:13:46.676 tune and sing the right melody. You know, you know 0:13:46.716 --> 0:13:48.636 what I mean. You had to be great. It was 0:13:48.676 --> 0:13:52.156 just that was just the standard. All of those artists. 0:13:52.516 --> 0:13:54.276 You know, when you work with them, it's like, oh 0:13:54.316 --> 0:13:58.076 my god, what a joy. This is you know, can 0:13:58.116 --> 0:14:01.156 you think of particular people who sort of surprised you 0:14:01.236 --> 0:14:03.916 that way. It's always a surprise in a way because 0:14:04.476 --> 0:14:06.476 you're not used to it. In her case, it was 0:14:06.556 --> 0:14:09.436 a little bit shy about what she was doing. Me 0:14:09.516 --> 0:14:12.916 and Bruce were like, something, something's not quite you know, right, 0:14:13.036 --> 0:14:15.956 what is it? And we realized, well, she's not using 0:14:15.956 --> 0:14:20.476 the vibrato like she used to, so we reminded her, 0:14:20.516 --> 0:14:23.036 you know, you know this vibrato thing that he used 0:14:23.036 --> 0:14:26.356 to do, you know, and then it kind of came 0:14:26.396 --> 0:14:29.276 back to her, you know, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. But 0:14:29.396 --> 0:14:32.716 the the other big surprise to me, I mean, I 0:14:32.716 --> 0:14:37.476 mean was Gary was Bonds, who you know. Bruce said, 0:14:38.076 --> 0:14:41.196 let's do a record with Gary Gary Bonds, And I 0:14:41.636 --> 0:14:43.996 loved Gary's records and I had met him on the 0:14:44.116 --> 0:14:48.196 on the oldies circuit. Just a great guy. But I 0:14:48.276 --> 0:14:50.396 was like, you know, when you listen to Gary's records, 0:14:50.796 --> 0:14:53.796 you know quarter to three and New Orleans, you know, 0:14:54.396 --> 0:14:59.116 they literally like he invented the party, the party record. 0:14:59.316 --> 0:15:01.756 They sound like a party. They sound like they recorded 0:15:01.796 --> 0:15:04.996 in his garage. You know, He's just not the kind 0:15:05.036 --> 0:15:07.556 of guy you would think, you know, of the great 0:15:07.676 --> 0:15:10.796 voices of the Pioneer years. You just never would think 0:15:10.836 --> 0:15:13.716 of Gary Bonds. I'm sorry, you know, And I said 0:15:13.796 --> 0:15:16.716 to Bruce, I said, you know, Benny King's around, Chuck 0:15:16.796 --> 0:15:21.516 Jackson's around, Wilson Pickets around. You know, at that point, 0:15:22.996 --> 0:15:26.396 David Ruffin it was still around, you know, Smokey Robinson, 0:15:26.676 --> 0:15:30.116 you know, you know, I think Curtis Mayfield was still around. 0:15:30.796 --> 0:15:32.716 I mean I gave him a list of like fifty 0:15:32.756 --> 0:15:34.916 of the most incredible singers in all of all time, 0:15:35.516 --> 0:15:37.436 and he says, no, no, I want to work with Gary. 0:15:37.796 --> 0:15:40.516 You know, I really like him, and so we get 0:15:40.556 --> 0:15:43.276 in a studio with him, and a guy is just 0:15:43.556 --> 0:15:47.156 one of the greatest soul singers of all time. And 0:15:47.276 --> 0:15:50.436 I mean you would never know it from his records. 0:15:50.796 --> 0:15:52.516 And I don't know how Bruce knew it. He went 0:15:52.516 --> 0:15:55.236 and saw him live and maybe he got the indication 0:15:55.396 --> 0:15:59.556 from from the live show. But he's great on the 0:15:59.596 --> 0:16:01.796 album we did. Then we did a second album, which 0:16:01.876 --> 0:16:04.036 nobody heard. You know, we had a hit single on 0:16:04.076 --> 0:16:08.356 the first album which was incredible, So people heard that 0:16:08.396 --> 0:16:11.316 first album, but most people never heard the second album, 0:16:11.356 --> 0:16:14.036 which Bruce wrote the whole thing. You know, After all 0:16:14.116 --> 0:16:19.596 knew Bruce Springstein songs and Gary is singing like you 0:16:19.636 --> 0:16:23.036 cannot believe incredible. It's one of my favorite productions that 0:16:23.076 --> 0:16:26.276 I've ever done. And I'm not even sure it's available. 0:16:26.316 --> 0:16:29.356 I'm gonna see what's available these days. But anyway, Gary, 0:16:29.436 --> 0:16:31.916 I think Gary was a was a big surprise to me. 0:16:32.396 --> 0:16:34.636 And that wasn't the case with Ronnie, and that wasn't 0:16:34.676 --> 0:16:37.156 the case with you know, Darlie Love. You know when 0:16:37.196 --> 0:16:40.836 I when I finally produced Darlene Love, I mean I 0:16:40.916 --> 0:16:43.756 knew she was the greatest singer in the world, and 0:16:44.196 --> 0:16:48.196 and she was and is right now, you know, at 0:16:48.236 --> 0:16:51.116 the age of eighty. We have to take a break, 0:16:51.236 --> 0:16:53.356 but we'll be back with more of Bruce Adlam's conversation 0:16:53.436 --> 0:16:59.676 with Stevie Van Zanne. We're back with more of Stevie 0:16:59.756 --> 0:17:02.516 van Zan and Bruce Hadlam. Let's go back a bit 0:17:02.516 --> 0:17:05.836 and talk about your relationship with Bruce Springsteen. When did 0:17:05.956 --> 0:17:10.156 you guys first meet? We met on the circuit, you know, um, 0:17:10.516 --> 0:17:13.036 the day before the Beatles played at Sullivan. There was 0:17:13.036 --> 0:17:16.556 no bands in America. The day after everyone everyone had 0:17:16.596 --> 0:17:24.356 a band and they most of mostly mercifully stayed in 0:17:24.356 --> 0:17:27.396 the garage. But but but a dozen of us got 0:17:27.436 --> 0:17:29.636 out and we all knew each other because it was 0:17:29.676 --> 0:17:34.236 only literally a dozen bands if that in our area. 0:17:34.396 --> 0:17:37.916 So we all knew each other. And then, um, I 0:17:37.916 --> 0:17:40.436 started going to the village. Was about an hour on 0:17:40.516 --> 0:17:43.716 the bus, but it was you know, exotic, you know, 0:17:43.756 --> 0:17:47.316 it was it was unusual thing to do. I don't 0:17:47.356 --> 0:17:49.156 even know what would have occurred to me to do that. 0:17:49.876 --> 0:17:52.996 I never thought about this before, but anyway, I started 0:17:52.996 --> 0:17:56.636 doing it and going to the cafe wa and and 0:17:56.636 --> 0:17:59.716 and and you'd see bands all afternoon, and then I'd 0:17:59.716 --> 0:18:04.356 come home Saturday night. Um and you would, you know, 0:18:04.476 --> 0:18:07.996 see things that were a year ahead of where New 0:18:08.076 --> 0:18:10.956 Jersey was, so I would, you know, steal what I 0:18:10.956 --> 0:18:12.756 could steal and use it with my band, you know. 0:18:13.996 --> 0:18:17.036 And I started running into Bruce doing the same thing. 0:18:18.196 --> 0:18:22.596 You thinking about it now, it's pretty weird. You know, 0:18:23.196 --> 0:18:26.476 We're not only going to the same part of town 0:18:27.036 --> 0:18:29.876 in New York City, but we're going the same club. 0:18:30.356 --> 0:18:36.516 There's dozens of clubs. So we got friendlier because of 0:18:36.556 --> 0:18:38.756 that and started coming up to the city together. And 0:18:38.876 --> 0:18:42.716 I go over to his house and he started playing 0:18:42.716 --> 0:18:45.716 the songs he was writing. He was that far ahead, 0:18:45.756 --> 0:18:48.996 he was he was writing even then. You describe him 0:18:49.036 --> 0:18:52.716 as being very focused. Yeah, he was the most focused 0:18:52.756 --> 0:18:57.276 guy ever. He just knew exactly where he was going. 0:18:57.436 --> 0:19:01.476 He knew and nothing was gonna stop him, nothing because 0:19:02.476 --> 0:19:04.796 there was no other There really was no plan B 0:19:05.876 --> 0:19:08.156 for people like us. I mean I was a little 0:19:08.196 --> 0:19:11.196 bit more, uh, you know, I was a little bit 0:19:11.276 --> 0:19:13.556 more social than he was. You know, I took a 0:19:13.556 --> 0:19:18.556 bunch of jobs. You wears construction. He never did that. Yeah, yeah, no, no, 0:19:18.676 --> 0:19:20.596 I don't. I don't know if he ever had any 0:19:20.596 --> 0:19:23.716 other job. He managed to somehow make a living playing 0:19:23.796 --> 0:19:25.996 rock and roll from the very beginning, and let me 0:19:26.076 --> 0:19:29.476 tell you, it wasn't easy. He just was very very 0:19:29.516 --> 0:19:32.556 focused on it because I think, like me, it was 0:19:32.796 --> 0:19:38.756 it was this incredible gift of a new world where 0:19:38.796 --> 0:19:42.796 we finally could imagine fitting in. Because as freaky as 0:19:42.796 --> 0:19:46.356 I was, he was even freakier. I was a little 0:19:46.356 --> 0:19:49.436 bit more social. He didn't say two words, you know. 0:19:49.516 --> 0:19:53.956 I mean, if you picture the grunge guys with hair 0:19:54.116 --> 0:19:59.036 down to their knees and just staring down playing and 0:19:59.036 --> 0:20:03.636 and and not saying a word, that's him and h 0:20:04.956 --> 0:20:09.436 watching this very very shy guy turn into the world's 0:20:09.436 --> 0:20:14.316 greatest entertainer was quite a front row seat to a 0:20:14.356 --> 0:20:18.156 remarkable transformation. You had this beautiful quote, which I think 0:20:18.156 --> 0:20:21.596 people who've seen him will of course recognize, which is 0:20:21.796 --> 0:20:25.476 you said in concert he wanted to provide irrefutable proof 0:20:25.916 --> 0:20:29.836 that life had meaning. Yeah. Is that a quality you 0:20:29.836 --> 0:20:31.996 saw from the beginning in him or is that something 0:20:32.036 --> 0:20:36.076 he developed over time? Well? Yeah, but but it was 0:20:36.916 --> 0:20:41.476 rock and roll was giving us life. So we're passing 0:20:41.476 --> 0:20:45.356 it along, you know, we're passing the life force that 0:20:45.356 --> 0:20:50.356 that is and was passing it through us, you know, 0:20:51.476 --> 0:20:55.636 in an exchange of energy with audiences. You know, when 0:20:55.876 --> 0:21:01.676 when when he became conscious, which was the darkness era, 0:21:02.676 --> 0:21:07.756 you know, suddenly everything changed. He found his identity, he 0:21:07.956 --> 0:21:10.516 found an identity for what he was going to be 0:21:10.556 --> 0:21:16.156 as a performer, and Ash and the and the show 0:21:16.916 --> 0:21:19.956 from that moment on. You know, it's very different through 0:21:19.996 --> 0:21:23.676 Born to Run. It's just an entirely different identity, an 0:21:23.796 --> 0:21:28.156 entirely different justification for existence. You know, at that point, 0:21:28.676 --> 0:21:31.196 it became very conscious we are going to do a 0:21:31.236 --> 0:21:37.276 show with substance. Basically, substance became a thing. You know. No, 0:21:37.676 --> 0:21:40.836 this is fascinating to me because I'll bet you, every 0:21:40.876 --> 0:21:44.156 Springsteen fan down to the last one thinks of his 0:21:44.236 --> 0:21:48.036 career in terms of the first two albums, and then 0:21:48.796 --> 0:21:52.676 he emerges with Born to Run. But you believe that 0:21:52.796 --> 0:21:57.116 Darkness was really his first fully realized album. Why why 0:21:57.116 --> 0:22:01.556 do you feel that way? Yeah, the fans and even journalists, 0:22:02.196 --> 0:22:04.676 they're not wrong as far as the Born to Rue 0:22:04.796 --> 0:22:08.996 being sort of a birth of the moment when people 0:22:09.156 --> 0:22:15.276 discovered him. But what was fascinating to me, and something 0:22:15.316 --> 0:22:18.636 I didn't really think about until I wrote the book, Well, 0:22:18.716 --> 0:22:22.236 you know, when you finally get discovered by the world, 0:22:22.836 --> 0:22:26.676 it's a miracle and you better embrace it with both arms, 0:22:26.676 --> 0:22:31.796 you know. So in this case, he there's a whole 0:22:32.596 --> 0:22:36.636 transformation of himself from those first two albums to becoming 0:22:36.676 --> 0:22:39.676 this front guy. You know, that's why I joined the band, 0:22:41.076 --> 0:22:46.516 and the whole identity change at that point to this 0:22:46.676 --> 0:22:53.596 character that you know inhabits the entire Born to Run album. 0:22:53.636 --> 0:22:57.196 And it wasn't the big hit people think it was, 0:22:57.236 --> 0:23:01.476 but it but it certainly was substantial. And what's fascinating 0:23:01.596 --> 0:23:05.436 is instead of embracing it with both arms and being thankful, 0:23:06.156 --> 0:23:11.556 he realized somewhere here somewhere in the in the touring 0:23:11.556 --> 0:23:15.316 of Born to Run, or into the writing of Darkness 0:23:15.396 --> 0:23:17.076 on the Edge of the Town. Somewhere in that period 0:23:18.116 --> 0:23:22.316 he just realized that wasn't going to be him. He 0:23:22.436 --> 0:23:26.236 just wasn't that guy, and he wasn't going to be 0:23:26.276 --> 0:23:30.996 that guy the rest of his life. So it was like, sorry, folks, 0:23:31.916 --> 0:23:33.836 I know I asked you to fall in love with me, 0:23:35.676 --> 0:23:40.716 and you did, and I really appreciate that. But I'm 0:23:40.756 --> 0:23:45.796 gonna go one hundred and eighty degrees here and revealed 0:23:45.796 --> 0:23:48.996 to you that I'm actually a whole different guy. And 0:23:49.076 --> 0:23:54.236 it was a very courageous thing to do, and hours 0:23:54.236 --> 0:23:57.476 and hours of discussion that he had with John Landau, 0:23:58.716 --> 0:24:03.516 I think confirmed that the guy that we're running at. 0:24:04.236 --> 0:24:08.036 It was the line, we're leaving his town. It's a 0:24:08.036 --> 0:24:11.236 town full of losers, so we're getting out of here 0:24:11.356 --> 0:24:14.276 to win, right. I do love that you're asking me 0:24:14.396 --> 0:24:18.916 the lyric I think you've probably heard you may have 0:24:18.996 --> 0:24:21.396 heard it a couple of times more than me. But 0:24:21.516 --> 0:24:24.636 that but that that thing, that identity of you know, 0:24:25.636 --> 0:24:29.476 grab the chick out of the you know, from the 0:24:29.676 --> 0:24:33.396 tough town, put the chick on the motorcycle, and ride 0:24:33.436 --> 0:24:36.476 out of town into the into the sunset and you know, 0:24:36.676 --> 0:24:42.676 let's let's go to another world thing, which was extremely 0:24:42.916 --> 0:24:47.036 attractive and then wonderful. It's a Chuck Berry had the word, 0:24:47.036 --> 0:24:52.116 it's he's motivating and by the way, and in that 0:24:52.836 --> 0:24:58.956 this generation gap of really a tough relationship with his 0:24:58.996 --> 0:25:04.276