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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Markets Podcast. I'm Paul Swiney, along

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Speaker 1: with my co host of Bonnie Quinn. Every business day

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Speaker 1: we bring you interviews from CEOs, market pros, and Bloomberg experts,

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Speaker 1: along with essential market moving news. Find the Bloomberg Markets

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Speaker 1: Podcast on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts,

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Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com find I'm looking at the

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Speaker 1: chart of w t I crude here looking back. Just

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Speaker 1: since during the month of September, uh w t I

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Speaker 1: has gone from about forty three dollars a barrel down

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Speaker 1: to where we are today at thirty seven sixty five barrel,

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Speaker 1: so quite a move down. When we talk oil, we

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Speaker 1: talked supply models, we talked demand models, and when we

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Speaker 1: do that, there's no one better to chat with than

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Speaker 1: Stephen Short, President of the Short Group. Steven, thanks so

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Speaker 1: much for joining us here. Again, this is a commodity

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Speaker 1: that had been trading in north of forty dollars a

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Speaker 1: barrel pretty consistently. Now we pulled back to under thirty eight.

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Speaker 1: What's going on in the global oil market? We have

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Speaker 1: to keep in mind all commodity markets trade in seasonal blocks,

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Speaker 1: so of course back in the spring we had that

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Speaker 1: that debacle with oil prices going negative. Then we snapped

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Speaker 1: back and we stayed in that forty low forty mid

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Speaker 1: forty dollar range for the entire summer. Now, the problem

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Speaker 1: was the summer is your peak demand season for oil

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Speaker 1: for gasoline, and on that snap back from the debacle,

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Speaker 1: we only got as high as to where we were

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Speaker 1: right before prices tanked, so we couldn't get much higher

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Speaker 1: and we stayed in a very tight range. We demand

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Speaker 1: historically is at its highest, but of course this is

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Speaker 1: not a normal year. Demand for crude oil average two

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Speaker 1: point five to two point seven million barrels a day

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Speaker 1: below normal. Now that we have the Labor Day holiday,

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Speaker 1: it's September, we now go into that next seasonal block.

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Speaker 1: We're going from the peak demand season to the negative

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Speaker 1: of the demand season. So over the next two months,

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Speaker 1: as refineries go into their maintenance season they buy fewer barrels,

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Speaker 1: we'll see demand dropped by an additional nine hundred thousands

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Speaker 1: to a million barrels a day. So it's clearly a

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Speaker 1: demand story right now. The US producer has done a

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Speaker 1: great job taking two million barrels a day of production

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Speaker 1: out of the market. But as I said before, it's

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Speaker 1: not good enough because demand is still greater than two

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Speaker 1: million barrels a day. So the producer has done a

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Speaker 1: great job, but they're gonna have to continue. And it's

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Speaker 1: all about the demand right now, and we're going into

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Speaker 1: the weakest demand part of the year. How in the

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Speaker 1: longer run does China impact things? China we know it

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Speaker 1: wants to increase it's reserves of crude beginning in one

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Speaker 1: does that impact US producers at all? Absolutely? The US

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Speaker 1: now is of course a virgin in UH exporter of

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Speaker 1: crude oil, and in fact, since last October, five out

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Speaker 1: of every nine weeks, the US has been a net

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Speaker 1: exporter that is, petroleum products, which is not news. Now

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Speaker 1: States has been a net export of petroleum products guestline

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Speaker 1: diesel for a number of years. Now what has chain

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Speaker 1: change days over the year. We're now an exporter of

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Speaker 1: crude oil. So five out of the nine weeks we

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Speaker 1: have more oil going out of the Nited States than

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Speaker 1: coming in. And of course with China, a lot of

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Speaker 1: that oil is destined for those markets. Oil at these

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Speaker 1: levels are is competitive for the Chinese consumer. So that's

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Speaker 1: certainly when we transition back into the demand season. We'll

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Speaker 1: see a peak later in this year as we get

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Speaker 1: into the holidays, then we'll go into another decline in

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Speaker 1: demand through the first quarter, and then we look ahead

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Speaker 1: to the winter and demand picks up again. So clearly,

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Speaker 1: out in the long run, China certainly is a significant

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Speaker 1: force the supportive of US energy production. Steven, aside from

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Speaker 1: the seasonal qualities or variabilities, is there a sense do

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Speaker 1: you have a sense that demand for oil post pandemic

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Speaker 1: will in fact be structurally lower. Yes, absolutely, I think

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Speaker 1: this is the way we've been going in a number

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Speaker 1: of years. The oil market is clearly a a twilight

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Speaker 1: in history as we make greater uh stribes for technology,

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Speaker 1: electric hybrid so forth, battery storage. Uh. Clearly, this is

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Speaker 1: the market was moving there naturally, especially when you look

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Speaker 1: at like I'm a dinosaur. I'm in my fifties, but

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Speaker 1: my children, all of our children, UH that they want

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Speaker 1: they're they're making the push. That's where your next market

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Speaker 1: segment is for the next generation. So clearly we were

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Speaker 1: already moving in that direction, and I think what we've

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Speaker 1: seen now in the pandemic, I think that will even

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Speaker 1: further it along at a quicker pace Stephen. How many

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Speaker 1: more bankruptcies are we going to see or what kind

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Speaker 1: of consolidation are we going to see before the pandemic

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Speaker 1: is over. Absolutely so. When we had our original downturn

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Speaker 1: in oil prices and then followed again earlier this year,

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Speaker 1: all the concern was for the smaller shell producer. But

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Speaker 1: now we're starting to see some of the big boys

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Speaker 1: in the room. They're struggling. Uh you know the latest

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Speaker 1: news being x on are they are they not going

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Speaker 1: to cut the dividend? How many employees are they going

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Speaker 1: to lay off? Now? I'm not saying the big guys

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Speaker 1: are going going down the tubes, but certainly the smaller producer.

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Speaker 1: I think we've we've we've seen the bankruptcy is already,

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Speaker 1: We're seeing consolidation, and as we take in I'm fearful

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Speaker 1: we take another leg down during this the nature of demand.

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Speaker 1: Over the next two months, we see oil back into

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Speaker 1: the mid to low thirties, potentially back into the twenties,

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Speaker 1: and certainly that's going to hasten another I think round

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Speaker 1: of consolidation in this industry. And of course we continue

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Speaker 1: to get inventory reports, a couple of them per week,

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Speaker 1: so we will keep a very very close eye on

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Speaker 1: the oil prices right now still in New York below

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Speaker 1: forty a barrel. Or thanks very much to Stephen Shork

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Speaker 1: coming to us all the way from Villanova, Pennsylvania. Or

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Speaker 1: is thrilled to have the editor of the short report on.

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Speaker 1: So it appears that some employees that JP Morgan Chase

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Speaker 1: and may have had on some very naughty thing. It's

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Speaker 1: really quite a disturbing story. And Michelle Davison's freetar and

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Speaker 1: not a rag and investigated and found that JP Morgan

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Speaker 1: found some of its employees and probably applied for and

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Speaker 1: received COVID relief money that was intended for legitimate US businesses. So,

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Speaker 1: Michelle Davis, welcome and thanks for a phenomenal story. Please

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Speaker 1: give us some of the details. Yeah. So JP Morgan

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Speaker 1: earlier this week surprised a lot of folks when they

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Speaker 1: spent out a memo to all two d fifty six

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Speaker 1: thousand of their workers saying that they had found instances

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Speaker 1: in which customers had misused government relief programs. And they

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Speaker 1: said that they were probing employees involvement in that. And

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Speaker 1: this memo earlier in the week didn't satisfy exactly what

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Speaker 1: employees had done. But a store is confirmed to us

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Speaker 1: wait yesterday that JP Morgan found that employees had some

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Speaker 1: of the employees had improperly applied for and received funds

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Speaker 1: as part of the Economic Injury Disafter Loan Program or

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Speaker 1: the ideal for short. That program is different from the

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Speaker 1: p p P program that has gotten a lot more

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Speaker 1: press coverage. UM you know the Small Business Administration's program

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Speaker 1: that UH provided forgivable loans to businesses through the e

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Speaker 1: I d L program, Businesses could basically get grants of

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Speaker 1: one dollar to ten thousand dollars um as long as

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Speaker 1: they applied directly through the s b A. And with

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Speaker 1: this program, UH, companies didn't have to apply through banks.

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Speaker 1: The money was just dis first directly to the applicants.

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Speaker 1: The only requirement was that they had a bank account.

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Speaker 1: And so what we found was that JP Morgan discovered

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Speaker 1: this fraud because it turns up that some of their

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Speaker 1: employees had fraudulently received this money and it had been

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Speaker 1: deposited into their checking accounts, into their personal JP Morgan

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Speaker 1: checking accounts, and so JP Morgan's discovered it because they

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Speaker 1: were on the alert to look out for fraud in

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Speaker 1: this program. These people have now been let go. But

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Speaker 1: we understand that JP Morgan has found a ton of

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Speaker 1: fraud among its customer base across UH all of the

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Speaker 1: government relief programs that were ruled out because of COVID,

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Speaker 1: not only to PPP but also the ideals as we

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Speaker 1: were just talking about, and also through unemployment benefit some

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Speaker 1: shows already. Are these just random employees within the sprawling

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Speaker 1: JPMorgan complex or is there some kind of systematic issue here.

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Speaker 1: So what we understand is that the employees that participated

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Speaker 1: in this, we're not acting as agents of the bank.

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Speaker 1: It's it's not like they were, you know, people in

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Speaker 1: charge of applying of approving p PP loans and you

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Speaker 1: know they knowingly allowed fraud to happen. This seems like

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Speaker 1: employees that we're just randomly scattered across the bank that

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Speaker 1: saw an opportunity to get money basically free money out

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Speaker 1: of the I d L program and you know, applied

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Speaker 1: for and received this money. Um, we also understand that

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Speaker 1: of the fraud JP Morgan has found so far, and

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Speaker 1: they're they're still working with authorities right now to monitor

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Speaker 1: check the accounts, just you know, to see if there's

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Speaker 1: any suspicious behavior, suspicious amounts of money hitting people's checking

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Speaker 1: accounts or or you know, being used to purchase Lamborghinis

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Speaker 1: or what have you. Um, it's our understanding that all

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Speaker 1: of that that they're looking at right now, of that,

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Speaker 1: only a small percentage has been tied back to employees. Right.

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Speaker 1: In the memo sent out to staff on Tuesday, Javie

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Speaker 1: Morgan said it identified conduct by customers that didn't make

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Speaker 1: different sils and may even believe illegal, and that some

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Speaker 1: employees had fallen shorths on ethical standards to However, for

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Speaker 1: this story, a spokeswoman declined to comment. Do we know

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Speaker 1: roughly how many actual employees took the ideal funds? Michelle?

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Speaker 1: Do any idea whether this is just a small number

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Speaker 1: that you know, may have taken a thousand dollars or

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Speaker 1: two thousand dollars and will be taken care of immediately

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Speaker 1: when they're identified, I'm sure by Japan Morgan, or if

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Speaker 1: it's if it's actually a lot more widespread than that.

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Speaker 1: At this point, we don't know. We know that it's several, um,

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Speaker 1: but that's as much as we know. Uh. The one

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Speaker 1: right spot is that the e I d L program,

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Speaker 1: which seems to have been the most heavily abused um

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Speaker 1: in terms of fraud. Uh the money ran, It ran

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Speaker 1: out of money in the middle of July. So it

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Speaker 1: doesn't seem like, you know, there's a chance that more

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Speaker 1: fraud is going to be committed. It's just there might

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Speaker 1: be more fraud detected at this point. So Muchel, you

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Speaker 1: mentioned that, are you reported that the bank had fired

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Speaker 1: these employees. Is what's been the overall response from the

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Speaker 1: institution here. Uh So, my understanding is that JT. Morrigan,

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Speaker 1: in disclosing to employees all two d fifty six global

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Speaker 1: two hundred fifty six thousand global employees and disclosing this,

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Speaker 1: they went against the grain. You know, you don't normally

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Speaker 1: see a bank telling people, you know, are some of

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Speaker 1: our employees may have done illegal things and a lot

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Speaker 1: of our customers have done illegal things. And what we

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Speaker 1: understand is that the bank's leaders kind of made a

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Speaker 1: calculation where they thought, Okay, this could hit our reputation

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Speaker 1: by disclosing this. But the view was that it made

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Speaker 1: more sense to tell employees to be alert for fraud

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Speaker 1: so that they could help catch it, um than just

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Speaker 1: staying silent. So that is that explains some of why

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Speaker 1: they did this. Yeah, so so according to your source,

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Speaker 1: the bank does you know, has already fired people that

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Speaker 1: it believes improperly tap the money, correct, Michelle, that's correct. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I understand that there's still they're they're still investigating, so

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Speaker 1: there could be more people fired, but at this point,

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Speaker 1: the people that have been confirmed to have committed fraud,

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Speaker 1: they have been let go. Michelle, thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for that. We really appreciate this excellent reporting. Michelle Davis,

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Speaker 1: financial porter for Bloomberg News. Just a crazy story of Annie.

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Speaker 1: I guess there's so much money slashing around there that

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Speaker 1: there's bound to be fraud throughout the system. But again,

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Speaker 1: when you see it at the bank, lebots a little. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's terribly sad. It's very very disturbing.

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Speaker 1: It takes away grants and loans from people who really

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Speaker 1: needed it as opposed to be get over employed therefore

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Speaker 1: presumably didn't also have a small business on the side

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Speaker 1: or need it, and it's just it's just terrifying. Well,

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Speaker 1: let's start with the US economic data. Plenty to talk

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Speaker 1: about in Europe today as well, but this morning we

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Speaker 1: got initial topless claims coming in a little more than

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Speaker 1: expected eight hundred eighty four thousand, continuing claims much higher

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Speaker 1: thirteen point three eight five million. And we also got

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Speaker 1: p p I data a little higher than expected both

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Speaker 1: for the final demand month over month headline figure and

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Speaker 1: also you know ex food and energy year over year,

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Speaker 1: which rules quite substantially. Let's bring in someone who can

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Speaker 1: make sensible all this for a Steve Blitz is chief

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Speaker 1: US economist for T. S. Lombard. Steve, can we begin

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Speaker 1: with the p p I data, because we all know

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Speaker 1: that the labor market is in a terrible way. What

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Speaker 1: does the PPI data say about inflation? Nothing? It says

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Speaker 1: a lot of It says a lot about prices. UM,

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Speaker 1: and there's a difference between prices and inflation. And what

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Speaker 1: the p p I is reflecting is shortages and supply

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Speaker 1: chain issues that are still um kind of getting back

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Speaker 1: online in some case, in some cases still disrupted. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And you've got a big rush to get back to

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Speaker 1: produce things because he was shut down for a while.

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Speaker 1: So UM. I think of these price changes really as

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Speaker 1: healthy in the sense that this is doing what the

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Speaker 1: FED prevents the capital markets from doing, which is price

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Speaker 1: changes to direct effort and money and all that. Uh.

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Speaker 1: In different directions, and that's where the well functioning market

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Speaker 1: economy does so. So Steve, when you say nothing in

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Speaker 1: terms of inflation, explained to us the p p i

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Speaker 1: X food and energy, so all other goods. Doucers are

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Speaker 1: paying point six more in August than they were last year,

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Speaker 1: and economist are looking for them to paying point more.

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Speaker 1: How is that not more difficult for producers to pay

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Speaker 1: and therefore inflationary well, because over time the prices that

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Speaker 1: they are paying for these inputs will go down as

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Speaker 1: supply chains come back on. In addition, you talk about

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Speaker 1: moving those prices forward with high levels of unemployment, where

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Speaker 1: you're continuing to add people to the unemployment roles in

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Speaker 1: terms of initial well above the prior recession. UH, then

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Speaker 1: the demand side, broadly speaking, it's going to be weak.

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Speaker 1: And so that is not a combination that is going

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Speaker 1: to allow firms to pass through these prices and sustain margins.

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Speaker 1: So their input costs will go down over time as

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Speaker 1: these UH supply issues change and the demand's not going

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Speaker 1: to be there. And that's why I say it's not inflation.

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Speaker 1: Inflation in this country. You get inflation when you've got

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Speaker 1: a lot of leverage buying going on, uh to buy

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Speaker 1: real goods and UH, that kind of leverage is what

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Speaker 1: this is what Defense been trying to create for the

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Speaker 1: last and odd years. Uh. That's when you start to

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Speaker 1: get a real inflation. Uh, this is just price changes.

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Speaker 1: Prices are up, now, prices can go down. All right, Steve,

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Speaker 1: let's switch. Here is a little bit and more data

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Speaker 1: this morning out the jobless claims UH came in at

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Speaker 1: eight thousand. The expectation consensus was eight. Give us your

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Speaker 1: sense of kind of where we are in the jobs market,

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Speaker 1: seems like or at the stubbornly high level of jobless claims. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And as I mentioned just before, I think sick hundred

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Speaker 1: and eighty thousand or something was the peak month of

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Speaker 1: January of two thousand nine in the last procession. So

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Speaker 1: that just tells you how high this initial claims number

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Speaker 1: really is. UH. And that was ten unemployment. Now you've

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Speaker 1: got two job markets, and that's what makes these gross

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Speaker 1: backgrod numbers so difficult to discern. You've got the people

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Speaker 1: who are temporarily laid off back in the spring, and

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Speaker 1: about half of them are back on the job. As

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Speaker 1: the reopenings continue, I would expect more people to get

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Speaker 1: back on the job. And that's all a very very

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Speaker 1: positive event. By the same token, there is an emerging

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Speaker 1: recession as firms recalibrate their expectations for growth going forward,

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Speaker 1: but to build back cash loss in Q two all

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Speaker 1: sorts of things, and the number of people who are

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Speaker 1: unemployed and say their jobs have been permanently lost is

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Speaker 1: up over four million. It jump in August. Uh, if

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Speaker 1: you go back to April, that huge number of people

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Speaker 1: got unemployed. A of that was people said that job

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Speaker 1: loss was temporary. What I have been saying since April

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Speaker 1: and still saying and watching, it's the permanent job loss

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Speaker 1: because that's the number that reflects an underlying recessionary environment

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Speaker 1: that as the reopening start to fade simply because you know,

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Speaker 1: everything's reopened there has reopened as much as people feel

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Speaker 1: safe to reopen everything, um, that number and the impact

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Speaker 1: that that number has on spending, etcetera will begin to

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Speaker 1: dominate the data. So, Steve, what should we be looking

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Speaker 1: for incoming weeks? I mean, obviously we got the news

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Speaker 1: that indoor dining will start out a quarter capacity in

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Speaker 1: New York City, which hopefully might bring back a few

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Speaker 1: more jobs here and there. But what will the data

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Speaker 1: that you be most concentrated on the well, right now,

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Speaker 1: the word unfortunately it comes every month, right, I think

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Speaker 1: there's all that high frequency data that tells you that

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Speaker 1: reopenings are continuing. And I think that's that's great and

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Speaker 1: very happy is in New York City resident, Very happy

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Speaker 1: to see, he said, at least indoor dining because the

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Speaker 1: winning where all these restaurants are gonna do when it

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Speaker 1: gets to be too cold to sit outside to eat.

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Speaker 1: But um, the number to watch every single month is

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Speaker 1: this job losses, permanent job losses, and that's really the

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Speaker 1: number and that will and then the second part of

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Speaker 1: that is that as that continues to go, watch these

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Speaker 1: forward expectations numbers because the forward expect because those phone

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Speaker 1: expectation numbers never really dipped as one would have expected

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Speaker 1: in their normal recession. All right, Steve, thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for Joiner's got leave it there. Steve Blitz, chief

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Speaker 1: US economist for T. S. Lombard, giving us his thoughts

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Speaker 1: on current economic conditions. We're just looking at the SP

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Speaker 1: five here. We're off about seven or eight percent off

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Speaker 1: of that recent high of just several days ago. But

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Speaker 1: let's be clear here, we're over off of that March low,

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Speaker 1: so a tremendous move up in the market despite some

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Speaker 1: recent pullbacks here. To get a sense of where we

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Speaker 1: go from here and what the drivers are that we

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Speaker 1: should be focusing on, let's welcome Michael Scaling, portfolio manager

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Speaker 1: of Manu Menu Life Asset Management based in Boston. Michael,

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Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us here. So we've had

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Speaker 1: a little bit of a pullback here. Uh, the question

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Speaker 1: is you know what's driving it and how do we

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Speaker 1: What we really think about is over the next couple

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Speaker 1: of quarters, heeries as it relates to the equity markets. Sure, well,

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Speaker 1: good morning and thanks for having me. Um. I think

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Speaker 1: that after we've seen as you just reference, that huge

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Speaker 1: move off of the bottom of fifty plus percent, not

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Speaker 1: surprising at all to see us give a little bit

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Speaker 1: of that back and consolidate some gains, especially when you

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Speaker 1: driver consider that the majority of this big move that

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Speaker 1: we've seen has been multiple expansion on the SM five.

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Speaker 1: So UM, I think that while it's been a big

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Speaker 1: move in in a short amount of time, I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: read too much into the more recent results on the market.

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Speaker 1: Is it you know, the market just doesn't climb to

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Speaker 1: the sky forever. What are you anticipating will be the

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Speaker 1: catalyst for the next move for this market, whether at

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Speaker 1: the upboard down. Well, I think it's going to be

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Speaker 1: more driven. I'm really less focused on the the actual

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Speaker 1: move in the market and just more focused on the

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Speaker 1: individual stocks. I mean, it certainly feels like this has

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Speaker 1: been the best pure stock picking market that's seen since

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Speaker 1: prior to the financial crisis. Uh. And you've certainly seem

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Speaker 1: differentiation in individual stocks. I mean a lot of people

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Speaker 1: like to talk about the move and the fangs, but

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Speaker 1: what what's that really reflective of is a great stock

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Speaker 1: pickers environment. Um. One thing I would keep in mind

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Speaker 1: on the market as you look at it is I

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Speaker 1: talked about before about the multiple expanding. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: not surprising that the market is trading at very elevated

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Speaker 1: valuation today, and frankly, I would expect that that's going

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Speaker 1: to continue for a very long time, meaning years as

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Speaker 1: you can no longer fund any liabilities from the fixed

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Speaker 1: income markets after the collapse in US interest rates. All Right,

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Speaker 1: so where do we go from here? What are some

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Speaker 1: of the sectors that we should be looking at here?

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Speaker 1: Because it appears that the economy, while it's coming back,

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Speaker 1: is coming back very very slowly, despite the incredible accommodation

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Speaker 1: provided by the foot of Reserve. Yeah, it's been interesting.

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Speaker 1: So this week there's actually been a few industry conferences

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Speaker 1: which have been attending, and was on one just right

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Speaker 1: before we came on live here. UM. I think what's

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Speaker 1: interesting is that, you know, heading into this week with

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Speaker 1: a lot of the retailers and consumer stables companies presenting

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Speaker 1: at various conferences. UM. Frankly, I was expecting to hear

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Speaker 1: more about kind of a late August slowdown and stimulus

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Speaker 1: UM and the enhanced unemployment benefits were unwound UM and

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Speaker 1: just the slowing and foot traffic its stores and those

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Speaker 1: kind of things. But frankly, you haven't heard that from

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Speaker 1: anybody at any of these conferences. Uh. They continue to

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Speaker 1: talk about a solid demand environment, a little bit of

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Speaker 1: the unknown if there isn't another stimulus package passed. UH.

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Speaker 1: And the other thing they continue to talk a lot

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Speaker 1: about is just UM it concerns around securing enough inventory

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Speaker 1: as some of the supply chains have been disrupted as

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Speaker 1: we saw the depth of COVID earlier this year. I

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Speaker 1: would love your thoughts on the succession plan at City

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Speaker 1: that came out today. Yeah, so, uh, in the John

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Speaker 1: Hancock Violence Fund that I run, we don't own shares

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Speaker 1: of City Group. Um. It's uh, the woman that was

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Speaker 1: announced to the CEO, I'm not familiar with her. Um. Frankly,

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Speaker 1: a little bit surprised that Michael Corbett is retiring so quickly.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know that that was on the

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Speaker 1: immediate radar of any shareholder. Um. But obviously you know,

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Speaker 1: in terms of humanity, a great day that she's gonna

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Speaker 1: be the first woman wondering running one of these large

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Speaker 1: global banks. How about on the technology front, give us

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Speaker 1: you later thoughts on Apple that's been such a leader

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Speaker 1: in the market place, and I guess some concerns that

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Speaker 1: you know, is there a bear case out there for Apple? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: So it's funny I think as we've gone through these

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Speaker 1: iPhone cycles the last ten years, the price action and

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Speaker 1: Apple stock has become more and more pronounced in terms

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Speaker 1: of the playbook that everybody follows, and that is that

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Speaker 1: you ride up Apple into the announcement of the iPhone

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Speaker 1: update coming, and then after the initially announcement, the stock

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Speaker 1: pens underperform I think some of this big run up

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Speaker 1: that we saw throughout the course of the spring and

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Speaker 1: into the summer was largely attributable to that, as this

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Speaker 1: is expected to be kind of a benchmark type cycle

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Speaker 1: with the rollout of the five G I phone. UM

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Speaker 1: but the stock is cooled off obviously in the last

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Speaker 1: week or two here. You know, if you wanted to

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Speaker 1: make the bearcase argument on Apple, it would be largely

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Speaker 1: around valuation, right. I mean, the stock has had such

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Speaker 1: a high, big run that it's now trading in a

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Speaker 1: twenties multiple UM and uh, you know when you think

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Speaker 1: about the fact that this is still a company that

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Speaker 1: sells an iPhone every couple of years. You know, if

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Speaker 1: you wanted to be maybe put a bear scare in

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Speaker 1: the stock, that that would be it. Right, is that

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Speaker 1: it's still cycle dependent um and and and consumer electronics company.

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Speaker 1: Now that's not to say that I believe it, but

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Speaker 1: that's what a bear would tell you. Okay, well, we're

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Speaker 1: going to get that event on the fifteenth, so just

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Speaker 1: early next week, to reveal the new watch and also

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Speaker 1: you know, a new iPhone cycle. Will it be successful?

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Speaker 1: What are you anticipating? Yeah, I do expect that there's

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Speaker 1: a fair amount of pent up demand. Uh. You know,

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Speaker 1: the last handful of years, you're certainly seen in elongation

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00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 1: in terms of the cycle that people actually hold onto

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00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 1: their iPhones. So I do think there's a there there's

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00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,200
Speaker 1: quite a bit of pent up demand. Um. I would

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00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 1: hedge that a little bit in when you look at

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00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 1: where we are from unemployment levels both domestically and just

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00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 1: economic stresses that you're seeing globally. Um, you know, it's

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00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 1: a bit more of a stretch for people to run

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00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 1: out and spend a thousand dollars on a new phone,

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00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 1: So I think you do have to kind of hedge

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Speaker 1: on it from that front. And I think the other

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Speaker 1: thing is there's still an education process that needs to

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Speaker 1: go on, right. I mean, you've had some of these

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Speaker 1: wireless service providers that have talked up that they're on

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00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,440
Speaker 1: five G e uh and people might think they have

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00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:20,360
Speaker 1: a five G I phone. They don't have a five

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00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 1: G I phone until they have an iPhone with a

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00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,199
Speaker 1: five G chip in it. So there is a bit

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Speaker 1: of an education headwin there as well for some less

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Speaker 1: informed consumers. Michael, thank you, always a pleasure of speaking

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Speaker 1: with you. Michael Scalan Portfolio manager from Manu Life Asset Management.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Bloomberg Markets podcast. You can subscribe

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Speaker 1: podcast platform you prefer. I'm Bonnie Quinn, I'm on Twitter

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Speaker 1: at Bonnie Quinn, and I'm Paul Sweeney. I'm on Twitter

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