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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert.

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Speaker 2: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, and we are out

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Speaker 2: this week, so we're bringing you an episode from the vault.

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Speaker 2: Today's episode originally aired on December eighth, twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 2: and it is part one of our series on the

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Speaker 2: reptiles of the Galapagos Islands.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's dive right in.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Joe McCormick, and today we're beginning a series

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Speaker 2: of episodes on the reptiles of the Galapagos Islands. And Rob,

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Speaker 2: this is not a topic we just landed on randomly.

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Speaker 2: This is related to your recent travels, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I had the great pleasure in the fortune to

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Speaker 1: visit some of the islands of the Galapagos Archipella go

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Speaker 1: back in October. It was a fantastic family trip that

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Speaker 1: we'd been planning for a long time, that we meant

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Speaker 1: to do before the pandemic and then obviously we had

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Speaker 1: to reschedule. But yeah, this is this was one of

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Speaker 1: the top trips I've ever had the privilege to make.

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Speaker 1: And now certainly I was visiting as a tourist. But

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Speaker 1: one of the things about the Galapagos Islands that I

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Speaker 1: love is so much of the tourism there is about

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Speaker 1: the natural beauty of the place. It's about the environments,

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Speaker 1: it's about the animals. And so if you're going all

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Speaker 1: the way to the Galapagos Islands, you probably want to

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Speaker 1: see some reptiles, you probably want to see some birds,

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Speaker 1: et cetera. And they really facilitate that. The local guides

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Speaker 1: are all terrific, all the ones that I interacted with

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Speaker 1: very knowledgeable of everything going on there. And yeah, it

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Speaker 1: was a trip just unlike any other, especially when when

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Speaker 1: observing these various creatures, because it was kind of like

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Speaker 1: being a Disney princess, like being in a Disney like

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Speaker 1: a Disney princess scene in a movie, except instead of

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Speaker 1: the princess being surrounded by cute squirrels, bunnies and birds

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Speaker 1: that are singing, you're just constantly surrounded by this wonderfully

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Speaker 1: bizarre cast of reptiles and elaborate birds, sea lions, etc.

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Speaker 1: And it's unlike too, I have to say, it's unlike

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Speaker 1: the vibe that I've encountered in places like the Grand Canyon,

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Speaker 1: where there'll be wild animals there that are protected and

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Speaker 1: so accustomed to humans that the humans can get like

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Speaker 1: unnaturally and alarmingly close to those animals. There's a proximity

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Speaker 1: to the animals on the Galapagos Islands that feels less

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Speaker 1: artificial but also equally magical, if that makes sense. Again,

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Speaker 1: not to say that you should attempt to touch any

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Speaker 1: of the animals there, or or or infringe upon their

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Speaker 1: personal space in any way, but there's this, Yeah, there's

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Speaker 1: this feeling of proximity to nature that makes you feel

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Speaker 1: like you are David Attenborough in a David Attenborough documentary,

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Speaker 1: you know, creeping up for a close look at this

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Speaker 1: animal or another.

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Speaker 2: And maybe you are the camera lens. And I wonder

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Speaker 2: if the difference with the Grand Canyon thing would be

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Speaker 2: the difference between animals that are unfortunately habituated to human

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Speaker 2: presence in all the wrong ways, like expecting you to

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Speaker 2: have food, the calorie rich food sources and stuff, so

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Speaker 2: they'll come up to you looking for that, versus a

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Speaker 2: place where animals don't seem to flee from humans because

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Speaker 2: they come from many generations of animals without natural land predators.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and I believe that is the case with

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Speaker 1: the Glapicos. So let's let's introduce everybody to the Glapico silence.

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Speaker 1: If you're not familiar with the Glapagos Archipelago, it is

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Speaker 1: a chain of islands in the eastern Pacific Ocean, roughly

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Speaker 1: nine hundred and sixty six kilometers or six hundred miles

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Speaker 1: off the coast of Ecuador. It consists of thirteen major

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Speaker 1: islands a few smaller islands, and these were all formed

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Speaker 1: by repeated volcanic eruptions. The process here is similar to

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Speaker 1: that which produced the Hawaiian Islands, which we've discussed in

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Speaker 1: the show before. So they're not formed all at once,

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Speaker 1: but in a chain due to underlying volcanic activity berthing

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Speaker 1: mountains and islands out of the ocean floor. So, as

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Speaker 1: with the Hawaiian Islands, the islands here in the Galapagos

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Speaker 1: are geologically quite young and their individual ages vary. Now, Joe,

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure what age ranges you've come across for

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Speaker 1: them when we get into the geologic age of the

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Speaker 1: Galapagos Islands, but I've seen it vary a bit. The

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Speaker 1: Galapagos Conservatory says, quote, probably no more than five million

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Speaker 1: years with the younger volcanically active westernmost islands perhaps as

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Speaker 1: young as hundreds of thous sin of years old.

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Speaker 2: But the idea that none of the islands there today

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Speaker 2: are are more than five million years.

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Speaker 1: Old according to some of the dates that I was

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Speaker 1: looking at these sighted dates, but just sort of casting

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Speaker 1: a wide net, I did see some other dates out there,

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Speaker 1: so you know, I can only speak to the ones

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Speaker 1: I'm citing here.

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Speaker 2: Well, estimates vary a bit, but it also depends on

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Speaker 2: what you're counting as the Galapagos Islands. For example, I

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Speaker 2: was reading a passage in a book Galapagos a Natural History,

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Speaker 2: second edition by John Creecher and Kevin Laughlin from Princeton

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Speaker 2: University Press. That new edition is just out this year,

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty two, and there is a section in

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Speaker 2: this book where the authors put forward the possibility that

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Speaker 2: some species on the islands, including the famous giant tortoises,

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Speaker 2: may have inhabited the Galapagos since before any of the

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Speaker 2: Galapagos Islands existed. Now, how could that be possible? Well,

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Speaker 2: here's what they argue. If you look around the area

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Speaker 2: of the archipelago, especially east of the existing islands, you

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Speaker 2: will see what are called sea mounts, which are submerged islands.

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Speaker 2: They are areas where the ocean floor rises up to

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Speaker 2: form a mountain, but that mountain does not break through

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Speaker 2: the surface of the water. So it's not an island

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Speaker 2: from our perspective, but it's sort of like an island

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Speaker 2: just beneath the water. Now, what are these seamounts in

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Speaker 2: the eastern part of the archipelago. Well, Creature and Laughlin

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Speaker 2: write that they are quote eroded volcanic islands, and that

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Speaker 2: they are possibly the original ancestral Galapagos. So they were

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Speaker 2: once perhaps islands that did break above the surface, but

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Speaker 2: have eroded over time. And the authors here cite a

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Speaker 2: group of oceanographers and geologists led by a researcher named D. M. Christie,

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Speaker 2: who put together some dates for these seamounts and said

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Speaker 2: that the dates range from between five to not nine

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Speaker 2: million years, which is older than any of the existing

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Speaker 2: Galapagos islands today. So to read from this passage quote,

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Speaker 2: as Christie's team pointed out, if the original Galapagos islands

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Speaker 2: formed as much as nine million years ago, there has

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Speaker 2: been more time for colonization and subsequent evolution than once believed.

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Speaker 2: This is colonization by non human animals. There may well

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Speaker 2: have been tortoises on the islands for longer than any

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Speaker 2: of the present day islands have been in existence. Given regular,

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Speaker 2: albeit accidental dispersal, new islands forming over the Hotspot will

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Speaker 2: be colonized even as old islands erode and disappear beneath

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Speaker 2: the sea from whence they came. So normally you're talking

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Speaker 2: about an island group, you would imagine that, okay, well,

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Speaker 2: the earliest it could have been colonized by animal species

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Speaker 2: is whenever the islands we have today began. But in

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Speaker 2: the case of the Galapagos, a lot of the evidence

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Speaker 2: of the earliest colonization by animals could be under the waves.

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Speaker 2: It could be lost because those islands aren't there anymore.

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Speaker 1: The lost animal kingdoms of the Galapgos potentially. Now, when

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Speaker 1: we're talking about the modern day Galapagos islands, some of

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Speaker 1: the main ones, just to mention them real quick, you

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Speaker 1: have Isabella, which is the largest. You have Santiago Fernandina,

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Speaker 1: you have Santa Cruz, you have San Cristobol. I only

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Speaker 1: really visited Santa Cruz and San Cristobal and a couple

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Speaker 1: of smaller unoccupied by humans islands that were quite fascinating.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things about these islands, and you've

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Speaker 1: often counted this with volcanic island formations, is that they're

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Speaker 1: defined by steep out elevation changes and the resulting islands

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Speaker 1: that contain multiple micro climates due to this, So a

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Speaker 1: visit to even a single Galapagos island is an encounter

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Speaker 1: with multiple and varied ecosystems.

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Speaker 2: Right, So you'll get different climates and different vegetation and

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Speaker 2: so forth at different elevations on the island. So and

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Speaker 2: that type of like what vegetation is flourishing therefore might

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Speaker 2: vary with the seasons. So when the rainy season comes,

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Speaker 2: you might get more blossoming of vegetation in the lower areas,

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Speaker 2: but then other times animals might find the most fruitful

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Speaker 2: foraging up in the highlands.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So it's any one of these islands, you'll

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Speaker 1: have you have sort of desert environments, you'll have highland

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Speaker 1: lush environments, you'll have coastal environments, and these are these

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Speaker 1: are This is one of the reasons that these islands

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Speaker 1: are often singled out historically, but even in modern research

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Speaker 1: is kind of a laboratory of evolution. Now, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to keep referring back to Hawaii a little bit for

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Speaker 1: a while because I think it's a nice sort of

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Speaker 1: touchdown to compare, especially since we've talked about those islands

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Speaker 1: on the show before as well. So when it comes

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Speaker 1: to Hawaii, as we've discussed before, you have such geographic

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Speaker 1: isolation that with those islands, so that there are actually

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Speaker 1: no native land reptiles or amphibians there. So anything in

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Speaker 1: the categorization of reptil or amphibian that you find there

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Speaker 1: were introduced by subsequent human arrivals by boat or ultimately air.

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Speaker 1: That's the Hawaiian Islands. We don't have the same situation

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Speaker 1: with the glabgos islence for a few different reasons. So

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Speaker 1: as far as humans go, first, human contact with Galapagos

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Speaker 1: comes a bit later. We're talking about fifteen thirty five

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Speaker 1: versus Hawaii's between one twenty four CE and eleven twenty CE. Also,

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Speaker 1: Hawaii is a greater distance from the nearest continental land mass.

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Speaker 1: And I should note that I think I've pointed this

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Speaker 1: Alma show before, but there is some dispute on whether

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Speaker 1: the Inca ever reached the island, but we can be

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Speaker 1: certain that Europeans reached the island in fifteen thirty five.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly three hundred years before Darwin did.

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Speaker 1: By the way, Yeah yeah.

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Speaker 2: So the story of the first confirmed human landing on

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Speaker 2: the Galapagos is very interesting, so I wanted to tell

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Speaker 2: it here. There was this Spanish clergyman named Tomas de

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Speaker 2: Berlonga who was a bishop eventually served as the bishop

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Speaker 2: of the Colony of Panama, and I've read it alleged

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Speaker 2: in several sources that Berloga was responsible for introducing bananas

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Speaker 2: or plantains to the New World, which is weird because

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Speaker 2: despite how much we associate bananas with the Caribbean and

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Speaker 2: South America, they are originally native to Southeast Asia. So

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Speaker 2: it is alleged that this guy's responsible for bringing bananas over,

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Speaker 2: but I'm not sure what the original source of this

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Speaker 2: claim is. Anyway, in fifteen thirty five, Berloga was traveling

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Speaker 2: by ship from Panama to Peru to help sort out

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Speaker 2: some kind of horrible sounding squabble between the conquistador Francisco

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Speaker 2: Pizarro and another conquistador over land and spoils after their

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Speaker 2: conquest of the Inca Empire, so Burlonga's on the way

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Speaker 2: down to try to help sort this out. But as

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Speaker 2: his ship is traveling south along the coast during the

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Speaker 2: first half of the journey, it is suddenly struck by

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Speaker 2: a dead calm that prevents the ship from sailing further,

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Speaker 2: and then it gets dragged far off course out to

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Speaker 2: sea by strong ocean currents, and just when supplies, including

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Speaker 2: fresh water, are about to run out, the crew sits land.

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Speaker 2: Their prayers have been answered, but like so many early visitors,

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Speaker 2: these Spaniards are almost instantly dejected by what they find.

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Speaker 2: The first island where they land is found to have

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Speaker 2: not a single drop of fresh water, and there's also

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Speaker 2: no pasture where their horses can graze, just a bunch

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Speaker 2: of giant tortoises and weird iguanas. But there were other

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Speaker 2: islands nearby, so the crew tried to sail to another

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Speaker 2: one to continue the search for water. Unfortunately, on the

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Speaker 2: way they were once again becalmed and could not sail

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Speaker 2: for several days, while just languishing there on the ship,

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Speaker 2: nearly dying of thirst. Finally the wind picked up again

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Speaker 2: and they were able to reach a second island, where

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Speaker 2: once again they found no fresh water. They tried to

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Speaker 2: dig a well, but when they struck groundwater, they found

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Speaker 2: it to be as bitter as the sea. And here

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Speaker 2: I want to read from the retelling of this story

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Speaker 2: by the famous naturalist William Biebe in his book Galapagos

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Speaker 2: World's End, published in nineteen twenty four, BB writes, in

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Speaker 2: their extremity, they had recourse to a plant which has

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Speaker 2: saved many a thirsty man and animal, And by chewing

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Speaker 2: the fruit and juicy stalks of the cactus they kept

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Speaker 2: themselves alive.

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Speaker 1: They took a page from the tortoise playbook. There.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, not all withstood these privations. One man and two

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Speaker 2: horses died of thirst, and so the first grave on

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Speaker 2: the Galapagos was dug. Sunday came and the bishop celebrated

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Speaker 2: high Mass on those desolate shores, where as he said, quote,

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Speaker 2: it looked as though God had caused it to rain

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Speaker 2: stone ones, brutal doom metal bishop. And then BB goes

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Speaker 2: on sea. Lions slipped through the creaming surf and looked

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Speaker 2: curiously at the little group of strange beings, and long

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Speaker 2: winged seabirds poised and swooped above the cross and the

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Speaker 2: Spanish flag planted side by side among the cactus and

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Speaker 2: thorny scrub. So I think BB's taken a little liberty

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Speaker 2: with the storytelling there, but all plausible, you know, given

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Speaker 2: the local flora and fauna.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, desolate beaches, weird sea lions hanging about. Well, I

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Speaker 1: guess the sea lions are generally described you as weird.

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Speaker 1: They would have certainly been exposed to sea lions already,

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Speaker 1: but in my books, sea lions are inherently strange but

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Speaker 1: also very amusing to watch.

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Speaker 2: They're just playfully rolling about while these people have church,

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Speaker 2: dying of thirst. So finally, after the worship service, the

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Speaker 2: Spaniards did find some small amount of fresh water. I've

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Speaker 2: seen what they found, alternately described as spring water and

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Speaker 2: as little pools collected in cup shaped depressions in the rocks.

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Speaker 2: And using this water, either the spring water or the

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Speaker 2: rock pools, they filled up their containers and they departed

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Speaker 2: again for the coast of Peru. Now, Burlanga made a

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Speaker 2: number of observations while on the island, writing, according to

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Speaker 2: an eighteen eighty four translation of his letters, that the

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Speaker 2: animals of the Galapagos were quote so silly that they

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Speaker 2: did not know how to flee, and that as a result,

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Speaker 2: wild animals were easily caught in the hand.

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Speaker 1: Well, that does match up, I think with the reality

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Speaker 1: of visiting the Glabgos Islands even today. Not that you

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Speaker 1: should be chasing any of the animals and certainly not

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Speaker 1: catching them in the hand. But yeah, there is this,

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Speaker 1: like I said, there's this sense that they don't necessarily

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Speaker 1: understand what we are and they're not threatened by us

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Speaker 1: unless we get too close, and then a lot of

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Speaker 1: these animals will let you know. So, yeah, don't get

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Speaker 1: too close to the sea lions wherever you find your

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Speaker 1: sea lions. Don't get too close to the tortoises of

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Speaker 1: the Iguanas.

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Speaker 2: Now, Rob, you mentioned that the tourism at the Galapagos

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Speaker 2: today is almost entirely centered around the island's natural beauty

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Speaker 2: and biological and ecological significance. You know, this is a

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Speaker 2: place where you go to see the natural landscape and

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Speaker 2: the flora and fauna. You're not going there to see

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Speaker 2: to go to six Flags Galapagos.

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Speaker 1: Right right, Yeah, Yeah, I mainly mean, yeah, you're not

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Speaker 1: going to find that. You're not going to find I

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Speaker 1: didn't really see much in the way of like a

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Speaker 1: party boat kind of culture that you find in a

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Speaker 1: lot of locations. It's you know that there is there

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Speaker 1: is culture there. There's some great restaurants, there's there's great

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Speaker 1: local culture. And the people who live there were on

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Speaker 1: the whole very friendly and and I loved interacting with

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Speaker 1: them quite a bit. But yeah, it's when people go

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Speaker 1: to the Galapagos. I mean, the main selling point, the

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Speaker 1: big deal for everyone seems to be the natural world

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Speaker 1: that is avail to you there.

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Speaker 2: And despite this modern appreciation for the natural beauty and

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Speaker 2: wondrous ecological significance of the Galapagos, a recurring theme among

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Speaker 2: early visitors is a reaction exactly the opposite. So in

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Speaker 2: the novel Galapagos, Kurt Vonnegut wrote that the early Spanish

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Speaker 2: explorers quote did not claim the islands for Spain any

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Speaker 2: more than they would have claimed Hell for Spain.

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Speaker 1: I haven't read this novel, but I did see it

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Speaker 1: in bookstore. There was a nice bookstore on one of

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Speaker 1: the islands in the Galapagos, and they had it there.

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Speaker 1: They were probably had several Darwin related books, and then

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Speaker 1: they had Vonneguts Galapagos, and I was tempted to pick

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Speaker 1: it up, but then I was like, I don't know

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Speaker 1: if I'm in the mid post apocalyptic literature at the moment.

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Speaker 2: I've actually never read that one either, but so, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it just seemed like the Spanish were not very interested

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Speaker 2: for a while. There were apparently no notable mineral riches

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Speaker 2: to mine, at least that they were aware of, no

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Speaker 2: people living there to conquer or enslave. There was very

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Speaker 2: little fresh water, so the Spanish just did not seem

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Speaker 2: very interested in these islands. And during the seventeenth century

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Speaker 2: it seems like the Galapagos largely served as a base

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Speaker 2: for people who didn't want to be found, for pirates

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Speaker 2: and privateers. Privateers would attack Spanish ships to steal the

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Speaker 2: gold that the Spanish had stolen from the Incas, or

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Speaker 2: just pirates who attacked and raided coastal settlements on the mainland.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, when it comes to the human history of

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Speaker 1: the Glavigos, it's easy to sort of think, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: Darwin and then you sort of fast forward to today.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, there's a lot of bloody history there. It

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Speaker 1: was an extreme location that, like you said, didn't have

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Speaker 1: a lot seemingly to offer except as a place of

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Speaker 1: refuge for people engaged in various bloody activities. Sometimes it

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Speaker 1: seemed like a place for utopian ideals, and of course

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Speaker 1: those sorts of ventures don't always turn out well either.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, there's there's a very interesting human history there

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Speaker 1: that is not all just bird watching by any means.

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Speaker 2: Mm hmm. Though, continuing the theme of like the the

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Speaker 2: lack of appeal of the islands too many people who

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Speaker 2: first arrived there, Charles Darwin himself wrote of his first

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Speaker 2: impression of San Cristobal Island that quote, nothing could be

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Speaker 2: less inviting.

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Speaker 1: That's that's that's funny because they are on San Cristobal Island.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's like a statue of Charles Darwin and

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Speaker 1: the ship with his hand out and I had my

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Speaker 1: I got my picture made with this, of course. But there, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there are statues of Darwin all over the islands.

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Speaker 2: Nice. Now, well, yeah, I mean, you know, Darwin warmed up,

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Speaker 2: you know, he there's a lot to learn there. But

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Speaker 2: but yeah, apparently first setting eyes on it, he was like,

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Speaker 2: h not cool.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's not the quote. That's like on a plaque

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Speaker 1: beside this statue.

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Speaker 2: Now, regarding this story about Burlonga's accidental landfall in the

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Speaker 2: Galapagos being the first confirmed human visit, It is important

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Speaker 2: to stress that this is the first visit by humans

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Speaker 2: we're sure about, but there are all kinds of interesting

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Speaker 2: arguments about whether or not others had been there before,

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Speaker 2: and their theories of contact regarding the Incas, Pacific peoples

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Speaker 2: and so forth. But I think all of these are

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Speaker 2: speculative and the evidence is questionable. There was certainly no

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Speaker 2: permanent human settlement in pre Columbian times, and the earliest

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Speaker 2: arrivals by humans appear to be by accident.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you get into that situation though, where if earlier

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Speaker 1: peoples had come there, they probably wouldn't have stuck around,

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Speaker 1: and what would they have left behind, what evidence would

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Speaker 1: there be, So yeah, we're left to speculation. Now, coming

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Speaker 1: back around to the reptiles, which is going to be

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Speaker 1: the main thing we're talking about in these episodes. Again,

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Speaker 1: the Hawaiian Islands no native reptiles, but we have these

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Speaker 1: fascinating examples of reptiles on the Galapagos. So while reptiles

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Speaker 1: never had a chance to reach the Hawaiian Islands on

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Speaker 1: their own, the Galapagos Islands are in just the right position.

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Speaker 1: It seems to have been gifted some wandering, lost at

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Speaker 1: sea reptiles, and yet at the same time isolated enough

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Speaker 1: that they were able to evolve there unmolested for a

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Speaker 1: very long time. So it's kind of fascinating to think

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Speaker 1: about that. Like if they had been in any other location,

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Speaker 1: you know, there might have been a situation where, yes,

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Speaker 1: humans would have found this place and colonized it much earlier.

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Speaker 1: It might be in a position where these reptiles would

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Speaker 1: not have reached it of their own power or by

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Speaker 1: the power of wind and water, which seems to be

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Speaker 1: the case. I think the main examples of terrestrial reptiles

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Speaker 1: reaching the Galapagos Islands, they tend to involve rafting. They

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Speaker 1: tend to involve animals being just swept out to see

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Speaker 1: via rivers in South America. And then a number of

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Speaker 1: those animals are going to perish, but some of them

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Speaker 1: are going to find themselves cast upon a deserted island,

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Speaker 1: and from there they begin to find ways to survive

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Speaker 1: and these new forms evolve.

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Speaker 2: Well, this sounds like a perfect transition to the marine iguana.

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Speaker 1: Robert You ready, Yeah, let's talk about the marine iguana.

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Speaker 1: Probably not the most famous denizen of the islands, but

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Speaker 1: at least number two.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and certainly maybe the most salient in my

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Speaker 2: brain because specifically, to come back to Darwin, Charles Darwin's

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Speaker 2: discussion of the marine iguana, or the scientific name ambly

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Speaker 2: Rincus Christadis in the Voyage of the Beagle has long

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Speaker 2: stuck in my head. So of course, the Voyage of

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Speaker 2: the Beagle is the common name used to refer to

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Speaker 2: the published writings of Charles Darwin after his sales on

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Speaker 2: the HMS b Gole with Captain Fitzroy, and this chapter

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Speaker 2: on the Galapagos in the Voyage of the Beagle is

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Speaker 2: very famous, but the subsection on the marine iguana has

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Speaker 2: long stuck in my head, notably for the weird disrespect

390
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Speaker 2: with which Darwin treats these animals. So I want to

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Speaker 2: read a few selections as we go about here from

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Speaker 2: this passage in the Beagle, with some abridgments. But to

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Speaker 2: start off, this is what Darwin says talking about the

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Speaker 2: marine iguana. It is extremely common on all the islands

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Speaker 2: throughout the group, and lives exclusively on the rocky sea beaches,

396
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Speaker 2: being never found at least I never saw one even

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Speaker 2: ten yards in shore. It is a hideous looking creature

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Speaker 2: of a dirty black color, stupid and sluggish in its movements.

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Speaker 2: And in his journal he refers to them initially as

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Speaker 2: quote large disgusting, clumsy lizards.

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Speaker 1: I mean they do lay around in clumps, which I

402
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Speaker 1: could imagine some seeing this as being kind of gross looking.

403
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Speaker 1: But in the same and this on the same note,

404
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 1: the way they kind of lounge around sometimes they they

405
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,439
Speaker 1: seem oddly human in the way like one all sometimes

406
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Speaker 1: have an arm slung over the shoulder of another, like

407
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 1: it's like it's two, like as an old married couple

408
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Speaker 1: staring out at the sunset or something. Puppy pile, yeah, yeah,

409
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Speaker 1: kind of a puppy pile. And and there is kind

410
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Speaker 1: of an awkwardness to them sometimes when they move around

411
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Speaker 1: on land. But I don't know, that's kind of charming

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Speaker 1: more than anything.

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Speaker 2: So early chroniclers often use the same kind of terms.

414
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Speaker 2: They call this animal ugly, hideous. Some of them make

415
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Speaker 2: bizarre value statements, such as comparing them to devils or

416
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Speaker 2: imps of darkness. Uh Darwin himself in the Beagle quote

417
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Speaker 2: say description by a previous author, a Captain Colnett, who

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Speaker 2: visited the Galapagos, who says in the part of his

419
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Speaker 2: work that Darwin quotes, quote, they go to sea in

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Speaker 2: herds of fishing and sun themselves on the rocks, and

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Speaker 2: maybe called alligators in miniature and elsewhere. Coln It marveled

422
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Speaker 2: at their ugliness, writing quote, so disgusting is their appearance

423
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Speaker 2: that no one on board could be prevailed upon to

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Speaker 2: take them as food. Not even sailors would eat them.

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Speaker 2: And I'm going to say I take personal offense to

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Speaker 2: all this. I think marine iguanas are beautiful. I want

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Speaker 2: to hug and kiss them. I know I shouldn't. I

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Speaker 2: would never do that, but I want to.

429
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, they do look kind of like yemps, but I

430
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:38,880
Speaker 1: think in a good way. We often thought that they

431
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,879
Speaker 1: looked kind of like tiny godzillas. Something about the shape

432
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,359
Speaker 1: of their their heads and their snouts, and of course

433
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 1: the little, you know, protrusions on the top of their

434
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 1: head gives them kind of a kaiju appearance. And there's

435
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 1: so many things about them. There's a lot of times

436
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 1: you know they're lounging around, they're not doing anything, but

437
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 1: then when they are moving about, even on the land,

438
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 1: they can be quite amusing. Like, for instance, if one

439
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 1: is making a bee line for something, especially if one

440
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:08,399
Speaker 1: is coming out of the water or it's time to

441
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 1: go to the water. Sometimes something will seem to get

442
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,399
Speaker 1: in the way of their their journey, like maybe a

443
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,919
Speaker 1: sea lion or a human wanders into their path, and

444
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 1: they'll just kind of stop and they'll they won't skitter

445
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:22,399
Speaker 1: out of the way or anything, but there just kind

446
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,639
Speaker 1: of wait until whatever it did is has moved on,

447
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 1: and then they'll keep going. So there's this kind of

448
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 1: like laid back care free of energy to these creatures.

449
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 2: They're kind of wasted away again in Margueritaville.

450
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 1: Yeah.

451
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, by the way, you mentioned their stubby little snouts.

452
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,919
Speaker 2: That's actually what the genus name means, ambly Rincus means

453
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 2: blunt snout.

454
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:52,640
Speaker 1: Ah. Well, we'll come back to the blunt snout of that.

455
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,640
Speaker 2: However, to come back to Darwin's writings on the marine

456
00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:01,400
Speaker 2: Iguaana his unseemly anti iguana prejudice aside, he does make

457
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:06,120
Speaker 2: some correct observations about them. For example, Captain Colnet remembers

458
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,399
Speaker 2: said that they go a fishing in sea herds. You

459
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 2: know they're going to go out and catch fish. Darwin says,

460
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 2: I don't know about that. He challenges the idea that

461
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 2: they eat fish, and in fact we now know they

462
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,719
Speaker 2: do not. Instead, Darwin observes that these animals seem to

463
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,920
Speaker 2: subsist on a kind of seaweed or algae which cannot

464
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:27,120
Speaker 2: be found on land, and he reasons that this explains

465
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 2: why they evolved to go to sea in the first place.

466
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is spot on, of course, and we'll

467
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 1: get into it more in a bit, but yeah, and

468
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 1: it's also very observable if you're watching the creatures, because

469
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,679
Speaker 1: sometimes they're going to be eating algae that's under the

470
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,399
Speaker 1: water and perhaps out of you. But other times it's algae,

471
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,199
Speaker 1: especially as the tides change, it's like partially in partially

472
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: out of the water, so you can see them they're munching,

473
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,400
Speaker 1: grazing on the algae on the rock.

474
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,360
Speaker 2: Though as a side note, Darwin says one dissected iguana

475
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 2: stomach did have a piece of crab in it, though

476
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 2: he thinks this might have been eaten by accident, and

477
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,679
Speaker 2: he compares this to cases where a vegetarian tortoise has

478
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 2: a caterpillar in its stomach, because the caterpillar was just

479
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,680
Speaker 2: on the leafy vegetation the tortoise was eating. In fact,

480
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 2: we've done whole segments about this on the show before,

481
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 2: about herbivores eating animals accidentally or even sometimes on purpose.

482
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 1: Yeah.

483
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,879
Speaker 2: But after introducing them, Darwin goes on to describe the

484
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,440
Speaker 2: animals in detail, describing their movements with a strange mix

485
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 2: of admiration and disgust. So here's what he says. Quote.

486
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,359
Speaker 2: When in the water, this lizard swims with perfect ease

487
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 2: and quickness by a serpentine movement of its body and

488
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 2: flattened tail, the legs being motionless and closely collapsed on

489
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,959
Speaker 2: its sides. A seman on board sank one with a

490
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 2: heavy weight attached to it, thinking thus to kill it directly,

491
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 2: But when an hour afterwards he drew up the line,

492
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 2: it was quite active. Their limbs and strong claws are

493
00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 2: admirably adapted for crawling over the rugged and fissured masses

494
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 2: of lava which everywhere form the coast. In such situations,

495
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 2: a group of six or seven of these hideous reptiles

496
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 2: may oftentimes be seen on the black rocks a few

497
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 2: feet above the surf, basking in the sun with outstretched legs.

498
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 2: And then he goes on to note a strange, perplexing,

499
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 2: almost contradictory observation about their behavior. So, while the iguanas

500
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 2: go to sea in order to forage, that's how they

501
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 2: make a living, They swim out in the water, get

502
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 2: the algae and eat it. He found that he could

503
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 2: not scare them into the water. If he approached one,

504
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 2: it would back away from him until it reached the

505
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 2: edge of a rock hanging over the water. But once

506
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 2: at that point it would stop retreating. It would just

507
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 2: let him approach and catch it, rather than flee into

508
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 2: the water. And here we come to the infamous iguana

509
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 2: chucking scene of the Voyage of the Beagle. Darwin writes,

510
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 2: I threw one several times as far as I could

511
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 2: into a dep pool left by the retiring tide, but

512
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 2: it invariably returned in a direct line to the spot

513
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 2: where I stood. It swam near the bottom with a

514
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 2: very graceful and rapid movement, and occasionally aided itself over

515
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 2: the uneven ground with its feet. As soon as it

516
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 2: arrived near the edge, but still being underwater, it tried

517
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 2: to conceal itself in the tufts of seaweed, or it

518
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 2: entered some crevice. As soon as it thought the danger

519
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 2: was past, it crawled out on the dry rocks and

520
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 2: shuffled away as quickly as it could. I several times

521
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 2: caught this same lizard by driving it down to a point,

522
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 2: and though possessed of such perfect powers of diving and swimming,

523
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 2: nothing would induce it to enter the water, And as

524
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 2: often as I threw it in, it returned in the

525
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 2: manner above described. Now, this is indeed a really odd

526
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 2: bit of behavior, right.

527
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it would seem. Now, before we get into that,

528
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 1: I want to just mention I want to make two

529
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 1: comments about Darwin's riding here. First of all, I do

530
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 1: get the impression that perhaps Darwin was not a cat

531
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 1: person or had a cat, because like, this is the same,

532
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 1: the same situation I think any cat owner can attest to.

533
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 1: It's like I tried to put the cat where I

534
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 1: wanted it to be, and it did not want to

535
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 1: be there. So strange. But on the other hand, I

536
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 1: do love the part where he talks about how graceful

537
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 1: they are in the water, because that is also a

538
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 1: huge tree getting to watch these lizards swim about, because

539
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 1: it's I mean, it's unlike anything you see with any

540
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 1: other species on the planet. There's this graceful, indeed serpentine

541
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: movement to them. There whatever awkwardness you might observe on

542
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 1: the land is not present in the water, and it's

543
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 1: it's like watching a strange aquatic little dragon move about.

544
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's also about the way that like

545
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 2: they anatomically modify themselves to move in the water versus

546
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 2: on land, because as Darwin says, they collapse their legs

547
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 2: to the side and almost become a snake in the water.

548
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, but with their heads up in a way that

549
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 1: like you wouldn't mistake it for a snake. Like the

550
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 1: profile of the swimming marine iguana is unlike anything certainly

551
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 1: that I've ever seen. So it really stands out in

552
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 1: your mind, like your mind instantly is identifying that this

553
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: is something different, This is something novel.

554
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 2: I agree, and having seen not in person but seen

555
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 2: plenty of video of it. They are beautiful when they're swimming.

556
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 2: But to come back to this odd behavior, so Darwin says, Okay,

557
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 2: these things they go in the water all the time,

558
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 2: that's how they eat. They go down in the water,

559
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 2: they eat, they come back. How come I can't scare

560
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 2: one into the water or get it to stay in

561
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 2: the water by throwing it in. I throw it in,

562
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 2: the water just comes back out. Darwin comes up with

563
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 2: the guests about wyat acts this way. He says, quote,

564
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 2: perhaps this singular piece of apparent stupidity may be accounted

565
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 2: for by the circumstance that this reptile has no enemy

566
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 2: whatever on shore, whereas it's at sea it must often

567
00:32:55,960 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 2: fall prey to the numerous sharks, hence probably by a

568
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 2: fixed and hereditary instinct that the shore is its place

569
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 2: of safety. Whatever the emergency may be, it there takes refuge. So, okay,

570
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 2: that's an interesting guess. He says. It has natural predators

571
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 2: in the water, but not on land, so it just

572
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 2: feels safer on land, even if here I am threatening

573
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 2: it on land, because it's just acting out of instinct.

574
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it would seem to be a decent theory.

575
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 1: And indeed on land that nothing really messes with them

576
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 1: except when they're smaller. And when they're smaller there you know,

577
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 1: like and this is the case with a number of

578
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 1: iguanas and lizards, like until they reach a certain size,

579
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 1: they're on the menu for various other creatures and birds

580
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 1: and whatnot. But once they reach a certain maturity. Yeah,

581
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 1: they can just bask where they want. Nothing's going to

582
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 1: mess with them.

583
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, at least in the ancestral environment of the Glasogos.

584
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 2: Now introduced to dogs and pigs and all that stuff

585
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 2: that humans brought there will prey on them. So I

586
00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 2: decided to follow up on this and see has there

587
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 2: been any sub sequent research about this behavior in marine

588
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 2: iguanas that could confirm or deny Darwin's guess about the

589
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 2: evolutionary reasoning there. And I found a paper that addresses

590
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 2: exactly this topic. It is by Edmund S. Hobson called

591
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:18,280
Speaker 2: Remarks on Aquatic Habitats of the Galapagos Marine Iguana, including

592
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:22,880
Speaker 2: submergence times, cleaning, symbiosis, and the Shark Threat. This was

593
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 2: published in a journal called Copeia in nineteen sixty nine,

594
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 2: and it seems that sharks do occasionally eat the iguanas

595
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 2: as Darwin guest. A report of the contents of shark's

596
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 2: stomachs in nineteen oh three by Heller did find some

597
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:44,280
Speaker 2: marine iguanas in there, but Hobson thinks that the threat

598
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 2: to iguanas by sharks is mostly exaggerated, given that he

599
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:53,279
Speaker 2: and his colleagues directly observed iguanas and sharks swimming in

600
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 2: the same waters side by side, and he says almost

601
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 2: all the time they just ignore one another entirely. To

602
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:03,320
Speaker 2: read from Hobson quote to the contrary, the general situation

603
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:07,320
Speaker 2: finds sharks swimming slowly among smaller fishes with no overt

604
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,840
Speaker 2: sign that they regard these animals as prey. Certainly, sharks

605
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 2: are efficient predators when they do attack, but situations evoking

606
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 2: attack are relatively infrequent. At Narborough Island, I saw white

607
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,799
Speaker 2: tipped sharks and a gray shark pass within a few

608
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 2: meters of surface swimming iguanas, with no indication that they

609
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 2: regarded the iguanas as prey. George Barlow and I made

610
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 2: a similar observation involving a large hammer head at Hood Island.

611
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 2: So if it's not a fear of sharks, what explains

612
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 2: this behavior?

613
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 1: Well, if I would a venture a guess, I'd say

614
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:44,840
Speaker 1: it has to do with temperature, that they're thermic reasons

615
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 1: at play here.

616
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 2: Great thinking, and this is exactly what Hobson concludes. Hobson

617
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 2: argues that the best explanation for this apparently weird behavior

618
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 2: observed by Darwin is that the water's cold, you know,

619
00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 2: they have to go in there to get food, but

620
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:00,799
Speaker 2: they don't want to spend any more time in there

621
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 2: than they have to because it's cold and they're reptiles.

622
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 2: To read from Hobson, citing another researcher named Bartholomew quote.

623
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 2: Bartholomew in nineteen sixty six offered a more plausible explanation

624
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 2: after noting that iguanas basking on the rocks ashore have

625
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 2: a preferred body temperature of thirty five to thirty seven

626
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 2: degrees celsius, over ten degrees celsius above that of the sea.

627
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:27,760
Speaker 2: He suggested that iguanas which are taken from the rocks

628
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 2: and thrown into the water immediately return to land simply

629
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 2: because they are reluctant to cool off. And I love

630
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,239
Speaker 2: this explanation. It also does seem plausible to me. But

631
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 2: I love this because it highlights something about human thinking

632
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 2: that even Darwin himself was not immune to. And Rob,

633
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 2: I think you'll know exactly what I'm talking about here.

634
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 2: When humans are trying to come up with explanations for

635
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 2: an animal behavior or a feature of an animal body

636
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 2: or something, I think humans are way too quick to

637
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 2: jump to two types of explanations, those involving mating and

638
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 2: those involving predation, sex and violence. Just in our brains,

639
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 2: sex and violence are more salient explanations than all kinds

640
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,360
Speaker 2: of other pressures that exist in nature and do drive

641
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,719
Speaker 2: animal body plans and animal behaviors. Things having to do

642
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 2: with just base physical realities of the world, like maintaining

643
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 2: body temperature, thermoregulation, access to oxygen, all kinds of things

644
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,359
Speaker 2: like that that explain tons about the natural world. It's

645
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,239
Speaker 2: just our brains just don't jump to those things as

646
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 2: quickly when we're looking for a why.

647
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think modern reptile enthusiasts, especially any who have

648
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,479
Speaker 1: been engaged in keeping of reptiles, they'll be pretty quick

649
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 1: to tell you, Oh, yeah, temperature is important, temperature regulation.

650
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 1: You know, the lizards, snakes, they want their warm places,

651
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 1: and they're certainly going to realize that. But yeah, this

652
00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: is an easy, easy trap to fall into. I should

653
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 1: also say I did go into the water in the

654
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 1: Galapagos snorkeling once, and it is, to me a non iguana,

655
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 1: quite cold. So I can in some way at least

656
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 1: understand how they feel about it.

657
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Mark me is convinced I think that iguana

658
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 2: kept swimming back and crawling out of the water after

659
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 2: Darwin threw it in because it was getting cold and

660
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 2: it wanted to it wanted to warm back up on

661
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 2: the rocks.

662
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, and let I say, they're pretty chill, but they're like, no,

663
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 1: it's too cold. I would like to get out, and

664
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 1: he's like, I'm throwing you back in. He's like, too cold.

665
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 1: I wish to get out. It's not time. It's not time.

666
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:35,320
Speaker 1: I will get in the water when I am warmed

667
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:39,359
Speaker 1: up enough to do so. Now getting into a little

668
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 1: bit about the evolution of the marine reptiles, it's very fascinating,

669
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 1: especially again thinking of them as this really largely singular

670
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 1: occurrence in the modern world. So I was looking at

671
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 1: a few different sources. One of these was Marine Reptiles

672
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 1: by Resmussen at Hall from twenty eleven published in Peel one.

673
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:05,280
Speaker 1: They point out here that lizards make up sixty percent

674
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 1: of all reptiles, but very few lizard species compared to say,

675
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:13,920
Speaker 1: turtles and snakes, are present in our oceans. And this

676
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 1: isn't getting so much into the issue of prehistoric aquatic reptiles,

677
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 1: which do include extinct squa mats, like the mosasaur. The mososaurs,

678
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:29,360
Speaker 1: which were actually distant relatives of modern iguanas and monitor lizards,

679
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 1: were pretty fascinating in and of themselves. They were gigantic,

680
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 1: They reached links of up to twelve meters or forty feet.

681
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 1: They swam in earth oceans roughly sixty six million years ago.

682
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:44,799
Speaker 1: They hunted other marine reptiles, and it's possible they gave

683
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:48,360
Speaker 1: birth to live young in the water, though I'm not

684
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:52,720
Speaker 1: sure this is certain. There's various studies out there about

685
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,760
Speaker 1: possible egg finds of the mosasaurs, but it's worth mentioning

686
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 1: here to drive home the difference between today's marine reptile

687
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:04,400
Speaker 1: and those of the past, and especially you know, thinking

688
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 1: about sea turtles, thinking to about the marine iguana. These

689
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 1: are animals that, to varying degrees, are great in the water,

690
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 1: but they still must return to shore to complete some

691
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:21,359
Speaker 1: vital stage of their life, certainly with sea turtles. With

692
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 1: the marine iguana, it's more living on the shore but

693
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,399
Speaker 1: then going into the water to graze and feed. Yeah,

694
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:31,800
Speaker 1: so of extent lizards that are in any way aquatic,

695
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 1: there are only a few extreme examples, and this includes

696
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 1: the Western Pacific mangrove monitor, which is a carnivore. But

697
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 1: as the authors here point out, the Galapagos marine iguana

698
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 1: is the most aquatic of all extents lizards. It basks,

699
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,880
Speaker 1: breeds and lays eggs on land, et cetera, but it

700
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 1: has to go into the water to feed. It is,

701
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 1: by other definitions, the only squaw mate that's actually able

702
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 1: to exploit the re sources of the ocean in a

703
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 1: meaningful way. So the aforementioned monitor lizard, for example, can

704
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,880
Speaker 1: catch fish, but it also feeds on terrestrial meats as well.

705
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 1: I should also note that there are other iguanas on

706
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 1: the Glabgos Island islands, to be sure, including seven smaller

707
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:16,920
Speaker 1: species and three species of land iguanas in the genus Conolophus.

708
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:21,279
Speaker 1: They include the beautiful and rare Galapagos pink iguana, which

709
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:23,440
Speaker 1: is a most special creature. Included a picture of this

710
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 1: for you, Joe and everyone out there. You should look

711
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 1: up a picture of the Galapagos pink iguana. This is

712
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 1: not something I got to see when I was there,

713
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 1: because it lives in a very remote part of the islands.

714
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:37,439
Speaker 1: Not not even even locals don't usually get to see

715
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 1: this creature.

716
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:40,360
Speaker 2: The first thing that popped into my head is it

717
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 2: looks kind of like a hot dog.

718
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's you know, it's it's it's it's a

719
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 1: specially it's an iguana pink. But yeah, these are these

720
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 1: are rare and beautiful creatures. But again, the marine iguana

721
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 1: is the real standout here. The other iguanas are a

722
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 1: lot of fun to watch too, if you if you visit,

723
00:41:56,640 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 1: but yeah, the marine iguana is special. The average adult

724
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:02,719
Speaker 1: is around one point two meters in length, so they're

725
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:06,400
Speaker 1: not huge, and they're found on virtually every island of

726
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 1: the Galapagos. So coming back to the question, how did

727
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 1: any of these lizards get to the Far Flow and

728
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 1: Galapagos islands, The answer, according to Resmussen at all is

729
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 1: probably that they're all related to iguanas from South America

730
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:28,760
Speaker 1: that were washed from the South American mainland, again perhaps

731
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 1: by river floods, and carried out to the Galapagos. And

732
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 1: again this is where the Galapagos's isolation yet closer proximity

733
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 1: to a continental mainland comes into play. The theory is

734
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 1: also in part supported by the fact that as distinct

735
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 1: as the four bigger iguanas of the Galapagos Islands, including

736
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 1: the marine iguana are They are closely related and they

737
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 1: actually can breed with one another to produce hybrids, so

738
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:56,880
Speaker 1: hybrids have been reported according to Resmussen. At all, the

739
00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 1: marine iguanas spend quite a bit of time in the water,

740
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 1: though foraging for their food. As adults, they feed almost

741
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:09,360
Speaker 1: exclusively on the red and green algae. It's been pointed

742
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 1: out they're not above at least trying out the odds

743
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:14,360
Speaker 1: scrap of this, that or the other, and perhaps that

744
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 1: accounts for the crab claw that Charles Darwin reported. And

745
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 1: there's at least one population of the marine iguanas that

746
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 1: has been observed to supplement their diet with land plants.

747
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:28,319
Speaker 1: But for the most part, their hindgut has evolved to

748
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 1: thrive on the algae like they're bound to the algae.

749
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 1: This is not just a this is not just a

750
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:37,360
Speaker 1: lifestyle choice at this point, and their bodies have adapted

751
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 1: in other key ways as well to allow this marine

752
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:44,320
Speaker 1: diet due to the considerable selection pressure that's been applied

753
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 1: to them, which is quite literally the selection pressure of

754
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 1: being cast upon a resource depleted island. So we mentioned

755
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:57,400
Speaker 1: their flattened tail that's one of the adaptations. And it's

756
00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 1: not like you don't find flattened tails and other lizard species,

757
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 1: but this is clearly something that seems to help out

758
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,720
Speaker 1: there swimming. They also have limited webbing on their feet,

759
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:10,359
Speaker 1: which I saw kind of two different takes on this

760
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 1: in the literature I was looking at. On one hand,

761
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 1: there's the argument like, yeah, it's partially web feet, this

762
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 1: is going to help them swim, But others say, well,

763
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:20,759
Speaker 1: the webbing is not that extensive. It maybe helps a

764
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:22,840
Speaker 1: little bit, but let's not overstress its importance.

765
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 2: Well, I'm no marine iguana expert, but it seems to me,

766
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 2: at least when I've seen images of them swimming, it

767
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 2: doesn't seem like they paddle with their feet much at

768
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 2: all that I recall, but maybe they do sometimes.

769
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 1: Something that everyone agrees on, though, is that their claws

770
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 1: have become more powerful to allow them to grip the

771
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 1: rocks and the surf during feeding. And this is certainly

772
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:48,440
Speaker 1: key because if you're observing one from the shore, or

773
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 1: if you're looking at images or footage of them, or

774
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:53,799
Speaker 1: if you're snorkeling, you get to see one underwater. I

775
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 1: did not get to see one underwater. Firsthand. But either way,

776
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:01,280
Speaker 1: when they're feeding, they're often in an area where the

777
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:04,240
Speaker 1: the you know, the surf is disrupting them and would

778
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 1: make it difficult to feed if they were not able

779
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 1: to hold on and latch on. And then of course

780
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:11,120
Speaker 1: when they get in or out of the surf, they're

781
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:14,120
Speaker 1: going to need to keep from being swept up anyway.

782
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:16,239
Speaker 1: So yeah, they got to have those powerful claws to

783
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:16,799
Speaker 1: aid them.

784
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:19,839
Speaker 2: That's not an easy lifestyle. And crawling out of the

785
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 2: surf onto rocks, I mean, think about how danger its

786
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 2: how dangerous it would be to try to land a

787
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:29,799
Speaker 2: boat or even just swim up onto jagged rocks as

788
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:31,239
Speaker 2: the tide is coming in and out.

789
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:35,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. I was also now, this is something

790
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 1: I was told by one of the guides in the

791
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 1: Galapagos Island, who again are very knowledgeable of all of this.

792
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 1: Uh so, you know, they're they're very quick to spout

793
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 1: out all the scientific names of all the creatures you're

794
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:52,800
Speaker 1: looking at, and they're they're up on the latest findings

795
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 1: and so forth. I was pointed out that they all

796
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 1: utilize those sort of thorny spikes on their head, and

797
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:03,240
Speaker 1: I almost hesitate to say face in order to loosen

798
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:05,320
Speaker 1: up the algae on the rocks by sort of rubbing

799
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 1: their heads against it. And then it should also be

800
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:10,759
Speaker 1: noted we touched on this earlier, but there's the whole

801
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 1: regulation of their body temperature. And this is key because

802
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 1: again the water's cold, and these are cold blooded animals,

803
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 1: so they spend a fair amount of time basking in

804
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 1: the sun. And the way this is certainly one way

805
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:28,319
Speaker 1: it was described to me there, and this is backed

806
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:31,719
Speaker 1: up in the paper that I was reading recently, is

807
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 1: that in order to go into the water, they kind

808
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 1: of have to power up, so like they're powering up

809
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 1: there like on the on the beach or on the rocks,

810
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 1: basking in the sun, kind of filling their batteries up

811
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 1: all the way. And then when it's time, well then

812
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 1: it's time. Now it is time to go into the

813
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 1: water to forage for food, and they make that beeline.

814
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 1: But it's only then, only then, and they're not going

815
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:54,680
Speaker 1: to be thrown in early by some deranged englishmen there.

816
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 1: And if something should get in their way, well they're

817
00:46:57,680 --> 00:46:59,400
Speaker 1: just going to wait patiently for a little bit. But

818
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:02,160
Speaker 1: they've got a place to be. It is time to

819
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:03,839
Speaker 1: go into the water and feed, So.

820
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 2: It's a constant trade off of managing different energy resources

821
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:09,680
Speaker 2: in the body. You've got your thermal energy, like you

822
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:13,560
Speaker 2: need to bask on the land to get your body

823
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 2: temperature up, but then you need to go into the

824
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:18,839
Speaker 2: water to get food for your metabolism, and you're sort

825
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 2: of just always trading back and forth between the two.

826
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, Now when they're in the water, their heart beats

827
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 1: also reduce from about forty three beats per minute on

828
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:30,240
Speaker 1: land to seven to nine beats per minute in the water,

829
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 1: So that's also an interesting adaptation they have. And then

830
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 1: this is another famous one that's a lot of fun

831
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 1: to watch. You see this in footage every nature documentary

832
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:44,840
Speaker 1: that's covered marine iguanas. But both of the main varieties

833
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:47,320
Speaker 1: found in the four larger iguanas they have salt glands

834
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:51,759
Speaker 1: that help them process an abundance of salt should it

835
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 1: be in the body. But with the marine iguanas, this

836
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:57,360
Speaker 1: of course is very visual because if you're just watching

837
00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 1: them lounge about, they're going to regularly appear to sneeze.

838
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:05,800
Speaker 1: They're not sneezing, they're blasting salt out of these salt glands.

839
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 1: They basically blasting salt out of their nostrils as they

840
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 1: lounge about on their rocks, and as they're doing this too,

841
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:16,320
Speaker 1: making these cute little sneezing sounds or gross little sneezing

842
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 1: sounds everyone to look at it. They're also kind of

843
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:20,560
Speaker 1: like crusting over the tops of their heads with this,

844
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:23,799
Speaker 1: you know, like white salt crystals, so you can tell

845
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 1: like which ones haven't been on the in the water

846
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:28,360
Speaker 1: that recently, because they have this kind of like salty

847
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:29,240
Speaker 1: look to their heads.

848
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 2: They got the salt snot on there. Yeah, you know,

849
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:37,239
Speaker 2: this comes back to something else Darwin said. He was like, there,

850
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:39,239
Speaker 2: you know, you can back them into a corner and

851
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:41,600
Speaker 2: you can catch them. They they don't really bite. I

852
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:43,479
Speaker 2: don't think that's true, by the way, but he says,

853
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 2: they don't really bite, but they will blow salt out

854
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:47,440
Speaker 2: of their noses at you.

855
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:50,480
Speaker 1: Yes, I I remember reading this as well, because I

856
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 1: was when we were in the Galabacos. I pulled up

857
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 1: the text. I was reading it, and yeah, there is

858
00:48:55,719 --> 00:49:00,319
Speaker 1: this accusation that they're doing it defensively, and yeah, this

859
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:03,239
Speaker 1: does not seem to be the case. Now they're just

860
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 1: doing it. Maybe they're doing it, I guess, I guess

861
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:08,960
Speaker 1: I have no data on this, but I guess it's

862
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:12,920
Speaker 1: possible that if someone is coming at them and backing

863
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:16,520
Speaker 1: them away, then maybe that does seem to incite a

864
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 1: snort because they're about to move. But other than that, yeah,

865
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:23,239
Speaker 1: there's I've seen nothing to indicate that this is in

866
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:24,760
Speaker 1: any way a self defense measure.

867
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 2: That's right up there with av and defensive vomiting.

868
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:30,160
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of back and forth on that, right.

869
00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 1: I think we've discussed that is like a vulture vomiting

870
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 1: in order to free up room and you know, make

871
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 1: itself lighter so it can take off and get away.

872
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:42,759
Speaker 1: Is that are offering a bribe to a scavenger that

873
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:44,840
Speaker 1: may be coming after them and decide to go for

874
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:47,920
Speaker 1: vomit instead of fighting a buzzard like There are various

875
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:51,760
Speaker 1: interpretations of that. As I recall now on the issue

876
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 1: of marine iguana evolution, I was looking at another source.

877
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:57,920
Speaker 1: This is from Martin Wakelski in a two thousand and

878
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 1: five edition of the Royal Society paper entitled Evolution of

879
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:05,160
Speaker 1: body Size in Galapagoes marine Iguanas, and I found this

880
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 1: one interesting because the author here lays out one possible

881
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:13,319
Speaker 1: model for how the Marinea iguanas evolved. So, first of all,

882
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:18,440
Speaker 1: iguanas arrived, according to this theoretical model, in the Galapagoes,

883
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 1: perhaps ten to fifteen million years ago from South America

884
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 1: via rafting, so swept out to see floating on some

885
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:29,160
Speaker 1: vegetation and so forth, and then being cast on this

886
00:50:29,239 --> 00:50:35,000
Speaker 1: strange island. And once they're there, it becomes clear eventually

887
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 1: here that in the intertidal zone there's plenty of food

888
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:42,040
Speaker 1: for iguanas, but it's not on the land, it's the

889
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 1: algae in the water. Initially, the iguanas are going to

890
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 1: have to depend on low tides to get to the food,

891
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:54,560
Speaker 1: so the tide goes down, iguanas are daring to get

892
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 1: down in there and go after the algae, and so

893
00:50:57,760 --> 00:50:59,759
Speaker 1: there's going to but from there that's where we're going

894
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 1: to be to see the selection pressure towards larger bodies

895
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:06,920
Speaker 1: for thermal inertia and also the ability to anchor themselves

896
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:09,440
Speaker 1: in the surf, as well as these other adaptations that

897
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:13,280
Speaker 1: we mentioned, like the bigger claws ultimately the shorter snout

898
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 1: as well. That's going to be part of their their

899
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 1: forging behaviors. They essentially like rub their faces against the

900
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:23,319
Speaker 1: rocks to gnaw off the algae as well as the

901
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 1: like swimming morphological changes.

902
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:26,560
Speaker 2: Interesting.

903
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:29,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's and there's there's actually a lot of a

904
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:32,360
Speaker 1: lot of work that comes out related to the marine iguanas,

905
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 1: Like there's no shortage of papers. There's one from twenty

906
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:38,680
Speaker 1: twenty one that I was looking at, Cranial Anatomy of

907
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 1: the Galapagos Marine Iguana by Paparella and Caldwell in the

908
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:48,160
Speaker 1: American Association for Anatomy, and they point out some of

909
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:50,240
Speaker 1: the you know, the key changes just to the head

910
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:54,799
Speaker 1: of the creature of VI. It's evolution modified configuration of

911
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:59,279
Speaker 1: the snout and nasal chamber, increased muscle attachments in the

912
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:04,239
Speaker 1: temporal post orbital region of the skull, and and also

913
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:06,160
Speaker 1: the teeth as well. So all of this is coming

914
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 1: seems to revolve around what they're feeding on and how

915
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:12,960
Speaker 1: they're feeding on and how that's affecting just like the

916
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:16,240
Speaker 1: overall shape and even like the muscles of the head.

917
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:18,719
Speaker 2: And I imagine they would make some guesses from this

918
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:23,799
Speaker 2: about how far back in time the marine iguanas had

919
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:25,160
Speaker 2: these evolutionary changes.

920
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:29,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, one of the authors here, Paparella, I found this

921
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:31,840
Speaker 1: is actually I believe from another paper. But I saw

922
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:36,799
Speaker 1: this author saying that arguing elsewhere for an iguana colonization

923
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:39,400
Speaker 1: of the ancient Galapagos Islands as far back as twenty

924
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:41,719
Speaker 1: to twenty five million years ago. And I think in

925
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:45,759
Speaker 1: this we're getting into into this idea of not only

926
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:50,200
Speaker 1: the existing Galapagos Island, but these like pre existing Galapagos islands,

927
00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 1: the ones that, like you said, have now been lost

928
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 1: and are submerged. Wrote that like this we would have

929
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:02,280
Speaker 1: like an initial dispersal followed by constant short range hopping

930
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:05,440
Speaker 1: from older to newer islands. So you know, they get

931
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:07,840
Speaker 1: a foothole in one place and then they can spread

932
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:10,680
Speaker 1: to these other islands much more easily. And then as

933
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:13,719
Speaker 1: new islands emerge, that opens up new places for them

934
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:16,200
Speaker 1: to be. And of course as old islands die away,

935
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:20,239
Speaker 1: then so do the populations of those islands or they

936
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:23,360
Speaker 1: you know, they're forced to disperse to newer islands. And

937
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 1: Joe from that paper about the shape of their heads,

938
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:29,400
Speaker 1: I included this wonderful image, this one. I think I

939
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:32,239
Speaker 1: didn't get this out of the paper itself, but this

940
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:37,719
Speaker 1: was I believe from a like a Twitter post by

941
00:53:37,719 --> 00:53:40,600
Speaker 1: the American Association for anatomy. It's out there if anyone

942
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:43,239
Speaker 1: wants to look it up for themselves. But yeah, you

943
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:47,200
Speaker 1: see very very high definition close up on both the

944
00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:50,400
Speaker 1: head of the marine iguana, and then also a comparison

945
00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:53,560
Speaker 1: of the skull, which I thought was just very insightful

946
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 1: looking at these, because you know, it just looks it

947
00:53:57,200 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 1: looks very much unlike a lot of the lizard skulls

948
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:02,400
Speaker 1: you might see, Like glancing at it, you might not

949
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:03,840
Speaker 1: even think of it as a lizard's call. I mean,

950
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:07,600
Speaker 1: it doesn't look like a human skull or anything. It's distinct,

951
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:10,719
Speaker 1: but you can clearly see like the changes that have

952
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:11,640
Speaker 1: taken place here.

953
00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, the blunt snout and the density of it, I

954
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:17,560
Speaker 2: mean almost you could imagine it being more of a

955
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:19,719
Speaker 2: turtle skull or again, I mean it looks kind of

956
00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:20,360
Speaker 2: like Godzilla.

957
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:23,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like Godzilla, and I like how they kind

958
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:26,640
Speaker 1: of have. You see, especially in close up like these,

959
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:29,160
Speaker 1: there's real sense of iguana lips, you know.

960
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:32,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, you also get a really good look up inside

961
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:33,239
Speaker 2: the nostrils.

962
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:36,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, this, of course is a specimen. This is a

963
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:38,800
Speaker 1: dead iguana that Joe and I are gawking at here,

964
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:49,920
Speaker 1: but still beautiful specimen but yeah, the marine iguanas are

965
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:52,160
Speaker 1: are special creatures. And I think I don't even have

966
00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:54,960
Speaker 1: to tell anyone this. It's this is not new information. Uh.

967
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:57,040
Speaker 1: There have been so many documentaries that of course have

968
00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:00,680
Speaker 1: covered the Galacos Islands that have caught brilliant footage of them.

969
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:03,200
Speaker 1: They are a standout species that they've been highlighted in

970
00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:07,400
Speaker 1: various shows over time, or you've no doubt seen articles

971
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:09,480
Speaker 1: about them or see them popping up in the lists.

972
00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:12,960
Speaker 1: So so yeah, nothing nothing new in me saying that

973
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:15,799
Speaker 1: these animals are great. But like all these things, yeah,

974
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:17,440
Speaker 1: if you get to see them in person, if you

975
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:21,520
Speaker 1: have that chance, take that opportunity, because they're pretty remarkable.

976
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:26,759
Speaker 2: I would like to see the iguana puppy pile. Hey,

977
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 2: we haven't even touched on the most famous reptiles of

978
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:31,920
Speaker 2: the Galapagos, and I think we're gonna have to do

979
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:33,160
Speaker 2: that in the next episode.

980
00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 1: That's right, the Galapagoes tortoise. Yeah, we're going to come

981
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:39,200
Speaker 1: back in the next episode of of this journey to

982
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:43,000
Speaker 1: discuss these fabulous creatures. I mean, it makes sense that

983
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:46,640
Speaker 1: they'd come in second. They are slower, but they're they're

984
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:50,560
Speaker 1: very remarkable in their own way, so be sure to

985
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:54,680
Speaker 1: come back for that episode. In the meantime, we'd love

986
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:56,520
Speaker 1: to hear from you if you have thoughts about Marine

987
00:55:56,560 --> 00:56:02,480
Speaker 1: iguanas you know firsthand or docum menory based. If you're

988
00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:06,439
Speaker 1: a resident of Ecuador the Glavigos Islands, certainly we would

989
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:08,560
Speaker 1: love to hear from you on all of this. If

990
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:10,000
Speaker 1: you want to hear more Stuff to Blow Your Mind,

991
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:12,400
Speaker 1: I'll just remind you that core episodes of the show

992
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:14,960
Speaker 1: publish on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and the Stuff to Blow

993
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:17,200
Speaker 1: Your Mind podcast feed on Mondays. We do listener mail.

994
00:56:17,239 --> 00:56:19,520
Speaker 1: On Wednesdays we do a short form artifact or monster fact,

995
00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:22,239
Speaker 1: and on Fridays we do Weird House Cinema. That's our

996
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:25,520
Speaker 1: time to set aside most of the serious science and

997
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:28,280
Speaker 1: so forth and just talk about a strange film.

998
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:33,160
Speaker 2: Huge thanks to our audio producer, Max Williams. If you

999
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:35,520
Speaker 2: would like to get in touch with us with feedback

1000
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:37,880
Speaker 2: on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic

1001
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:40,239
Speaker 2: for the future, or just to say hello, you can

1002
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:43,120
Speaker 2: email us at contact at Stuff to Blow your Mind

1003
00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:48,640
Speaker 2: dot com.

1004
00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:54,840
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1005
00:56:54,920 --> 00:56:57,719
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1006
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