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Speaker 1: Hello there, Happy Thursday, and welcome to another episode of

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Speaker 1: the Chuck Podcast. This is our last upload of the week.

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Speaker 1: Barring any breaking news or any canceling of people due

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Speaker 1: to the violations of the First Amendment. I'm only half

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Speaker 1: teasing on that. I got a good episode for you today.

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Speaker 1: My guest is somebody that if you've been watching me

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Speaker 1: back in during the COVID days of Meet the Press,

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Speaker 1: will be a familiar face to you. It's doctor Michael Osterholme,

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Speaker 1: who's probably was when I couldn't get somebody in the

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Speaker 1: government to talk about what was happening with the virus

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Speaker 1: and what was necessary and what wasn't necessary, I usually

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Speaker 1: ended up having doctor Osterholme on my program. I always

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Speaker 1: thought he was pretty blunt, always straightforward, never partisan, not

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Speaker 1: an ideologue, and he wrote a He's got a new

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Speaker 1: book out called The Big One, which of course led

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Speaker 1: to me to my first question to him, which was

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Speaker 1: was COVID a big one? And his answer was no.

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Speaker 1: So that should make you feel really good. So I

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Speaker 1: don't want to get you all worked up and like going, oh,

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Speaker 1: I can't hear it. He's gonna but actually, what you're

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Speaker 1: going to love about this conversation in this book is

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Speaker 1: is is that I wish we had listened to doctor

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Speaker 1: Osta home Moore. I wish the government had listened to

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Speaker 1: him more, and and how much smarter we could have

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Speaker 1: been about closures during COVID. You know, as he said,

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Speaker 1: it all should have been data driven. And you know,

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Speaker 1: you don't want communities to shut down unless hospitalizations are

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Speaker 1: to a point where the community can't get reliable healthcare.

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Speaker 1: That that is the trigger. And it was it was

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Speaker 1: just such a you're you're sitting there when when when

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Speaker 1: we're having this conversation, we're both going, how did we

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Speaker 1: not do this right? How was this? How was that

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Speaker 1: not the metric we had all these other metrics when

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Speaker 1: we were talking about COVID. How is that not the

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Speaker 1: metric that we used to decide because one size didn't

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Speaker 1: fit all right? And that is what Ron de Santis

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Speaker 1: was arguing, and a Jared Polis was arguing. The two

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Speaker 1: governors that I would argue that sort of pushed back

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Speaker 1: the hardest on the government in different ways and different

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Speaker 1: sides of the aisle, and politically both of them have

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Speaker 1: benefited quite a bit from that. And how they did

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Speaker 1: it and where they went about it, and it is now.

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Speaker 1: Of course, I think DeSantis has gone He sort of

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Speaker 1: got addicted to COVID politics and has pushed the envelope

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Speaker 1: to the point of absurdity when it comes to this

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Speaker 1: anti vaccinate nature that it's taken place down there. But

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Speaker 1: at the time when it came to managing, when do

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Speaker 1: you shut down? When don't you things like that? I think,

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Speaker 1: in fairness to him, he was onto something. And so

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Speaker 1: it was Jared Polis, the Democratic governor of Colorado. He

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Speaker 1: was mindful of his state being a pretty libertarian leaning

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Speaker 1: libertarian state versus maybe some places that are right leaning libertarian.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, Michael Ostorm's the guest. Before we get to that,

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Speaker 1: I've got sort of a pot peie of things not

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Speaker 1: to copy s FORU rip from the headlines, but actually, frankly,

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Speaker 1: it's a little bit. I didn't get to do my

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Speaker 1: campaign update this week yesterday because I had a lot

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Speaker 1: going on there. So we're going to do a little

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Speaker 1: bit of Quite a bit has happened on the campaign trail,

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Speaker 1: both in campaign twenty twenty five and in campaign twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty six, and I actually do want to spend a

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Speaker 1: few minutes on this the mom the Mom Donnie dilemma

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Speaker 1: inside the Democratic Party because it's it's become the theater

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Speaker 1: of the absurd. But in many ways it's symbolic of

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Speaker 1: the problems the Democrats have right now not figuring out

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Speaker 1: they have their own identity crisis, and of course they

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Speaker 1: still don't know how to deal with Donald Trump and

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Speaker 1: trump Ism. But I'm going to begin with the latest

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Speaker 1: challenge essentially to the Constitution that we're dealing with, and

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Speaker 1: the latest challenge to sort of norms and the law

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Speaker 1: enforcement agencies. And that is apparently and it's been telegraphed,

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Speaker 1: which makes it all the more alarming. James Comy, the

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Speaker 1: former FBI director, probably one of the few people that

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Speaker 1: is unpopular on the left and the right simultaneously in

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Speaker 1: ways that are that inspire anger on the left and

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Speaker 1: the right. He is unique among is sort of a

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Speaker 1: one of one in that aspect, right, the anger and

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Speaker 1: the venom that can come out when you mentioned Comy's

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Speaker 1: name to somebody with an experience from the twenty sixteen

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Speaker 1: campaign on the Democratic side or somebody in Trump world

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Speaker 1: that dealt with the impeachments on the other side of things,

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Speaker 1: it is he is. He is a one of one

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Speaker 1: on this. But regardless of your personal feelings of James Comy,

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Speaker 1: how the administration is going about and trying to quote

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Speaker 1: unquote the president's enemies is really sort of creating real

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Speaker 1: problems I think with the rule of law. Right now,

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Speaker 1: look half the country. Donald Trump has spent the last

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Speaker 1: six years convincing half the country that every charge that

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Speaker 1: he has ever faced was a weaponization of the law

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Speaker 1: against him for political reasons. Right, he does not accept

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Speaker 1: the premise that he has done anything at all wrong ever,

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Speaker 1: whether it was what he did on January sixth, or

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Speaker 1: what he did in his own businesses, or what he

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Speaker 1: did to Egene Carol, all of those things, right, it

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Speaker 1: is for him he is quite successfully with at least

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Speaker 1: thirty to forty percent of the country, convinced them that

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Speaker 1: every single charge he's ever faced, under every circumstances was

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Speaker 1: just drummed up by his political opponents. Now, both things

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Speaker 1: can be true at the same time. He committed offenses,

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Speaker 1: he committed crimes, and is political opponents, we're trying to

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Speaker 1: get him and we're trying to hold him accountable for

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Speaker 1: what he did. So that is one of those things

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Speaker 1: where there's not a there's not a conspiracy here. There

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Speaker 1: was a There was certainly an agenda and a drive.

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Speaker 1: And look, I think that we can sit here and

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Speaker 1: debate whether the pylon ended up benefiting him right when

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Speaker 1: there was arguably you focus on what he did on

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Speaker 1: January sixth and what he did as president and the

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Speaker 1: decision you know, to go after him in the various

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Speaker 1: state courts came across like a pylon and did give

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Speaker 1: him martyrdom status, at least among his supporters. And it

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Speaker 1: is one of those where you know, he has always

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Speaker 1: claimed there was coordination, but considering how messed it up,

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Speaker 1: it all ended up there was no coordination and that

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Speaker 1: was actually part of the problem. Had they actually been coordinating,

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Speaker 1: I don't think Leticia James does what she does, and

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Speaker 1: I don't think Fanny Wells down Atlanta does what she does.

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Speaker 1: That you have a much different focus. And look, we

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Speaker 1: always forget here how poorly Merrick Garland handled all of this,

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Speaker 1: where he he allowed himself to get cornered into a

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Speaker 1: special Council because he took so long for the wills

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Speaker 1: of justice to be put into motion to deal with

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Speaker 1: the president and the former president at the time, and

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Speaker 1: The whole rationale for appointing the Attorney General Merrick Garland

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Speaker 1: at the time was to have somebody who was a

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Speaker 1: federal judge, who could essentially an adult in the room

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Speaker 1: to handle what was going to be the most difficult

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Speaker 1: potential indictment that the federal government has ever brought against somebody.

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Speaker 1: But he watched it. And here we are, so Trump,

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Speaker 1: we know this right when we last picked up in

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Speaker 1: our soap opera ear he has fired the previous US

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Speaker 1: attorney in the Eastern District of Virginia because, as he

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Speaker 1: wrote in his tweet, he is this is killing him.

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Speaker 1: They have no credibility if they don't bring indictments against

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Speaker 1: Komy and Shiff in particular, right he name checked Komy

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Speaker 1: and Schiff and Letitia James. Those are the three people

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Speaker 1: he named checked in there to PAMBONDI referred to her

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Speaker 1: by first name. What are you doing? So he's got

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Speaker 1: a new US attorney in the Eastern District of Virginia.

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Speaker 1: It appears that Komy is close here there's the clock

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Speaker 1: is ticking. What they want to charge him with is

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Speaker 1: lying to Congress. And he did it in testimony in

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Speaker 1: September of twenty twenty, and he is coming up where

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Speaker 1: if they if this gets too much, if it goes

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Speaker 1: too long, goes in October, and they don't indict him,

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Speaker 1: they can't. Essentially time will have run out. Right, there's

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Speaker 1: sort of a five year clock on that. I might

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Speaker 1: have thought it was a seven year'clock, but apparently it's

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Speaker 1: a five year o clock. And so they can't bring

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Speaker 1: that charge if they don't bring it soon. Now, remember,

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Speaker 1: in Donald Trump's tweet, he doesn't care whether the indictment sticks.

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Speaker 1: He just wants the indictment. He wants them to spend money. Right,

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Speaker 1: he's his mo. He doesn't care whether he's right or wrong.

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Speaker 1: He's going to file aw lawsuit. And he wants his

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Speaker 1: political enemies to drown in paperwork to pay legal bills.

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Speaker 1: And in his mind, this is this is retribution. Right,

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Speaker 1: if he had to deal with this, so should Comy,

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Speaker 1: if he had to deal with this, social Leticia James, right,

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Speaker 1: and so and obviously Adam. It's interesting to me by

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Speaker 1: the way that he goes after Adam Shiff, but not

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Speaker 1: Jamie Raskin, Right. He goes after the first impeachment lead prosecutor,

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Speaker 1: who was Adam Schiff, but not the second impeachment leading prosecutor.

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Speaker 1: Of course, Jamie Raskin was prosecuting the January sixth insurrection

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Speaker 1: and he got a handful of Republicans to support his cause.

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Speaker 1: Schiff was part of something that was only Democrats were

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Speaker 1: on the side of impeaching him on that. Perhaps that's

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Speaker 1: why he doesn't target Jamie Raskin. But the Komi indictment's

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Speaker 1: apparently coming, and I think it's going to be fascinating.

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Speaker 1: There's a few things to watch here. When can they

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Speaker 1: get a grand journey? Right? Donald Trump is telegraphed that

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Speaker 1: this is a that he has politicized this prosecution. Right.

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Speaker 1: He got angry that the previous US attorney said there

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Speaker 1: wasn't enough evidence to bring charges. So he said, I

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Speaker 1: want my personal one of my personal lawyers to become

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Speaker 1: the US attorney. He has successfully done that, and now

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Speaker 1: he wants her to bring this indictment again. He doesn't

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Speaker 1: care if there's a conviction. But here's the problem, and

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Speaker 1: this is, you know, if I were to say I

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Speaker 1: had one mission with what I'm trying to do here

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Speaker 1: in this independent space, it's to get everybody to realize

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Speaker 1: why two wrongs don't make a right, and actually why

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Speaker 1: two wrongs are destructive to the American experiment. So Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump spent six years convincing all of his supporters that

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Speaker 1: every law enforcement agency in the government was corrupt, and

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Speaker 1: now in a nine short months, he has put his

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Speaker 1: he has made sure he's got his people in these agencies,

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Speaker 1: and he's got them doing things that are very political. Right.

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Speaker 1: He is doing what he believes was done against him.

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Speaker 1: There's no evidence that it was, but he doesn't care.

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Speaker 1: And he just sees hey, eye for an eye, right,

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Speaker 1: this is sort of old Testament justice in his head.

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Speaker 1: Eye for an eye. You indicted my guy me, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to figure out how to get back at you.

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Speaker 1: But here's the unintended consequence. And I think you've heard

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Speaker 1: me use this analogy before. An old reporter friend of mine,

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Speaker 1: Matt Cooper, I think's over at Washington Monthly. Now. A

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Speaker 1: lot of us in politics think we're funny. Matt Cooper

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Speaker 1: actually had the guts to try to do stand up

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Speaker 1: and he actually had. For a political reporter, he's pretty fonny.

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Speaker 1: But he had a great little satirical joke about beer

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Speaker 1: and about about how sort of how Democrats and Republicans

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Speaker 1: attack each other, and he says, imagine if beer companies

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Speaker 1: use the same tactics. And like I said, some of

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Speaker 1: you have heard me use quote him before on this.

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Speaker 1: You know, so bud Light and miller Lite are attacking

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Speaker 1: each other. You know, bud Light runs the bud Light

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Speaker 1: Super Pac Americans for drinking bud Light, says miller Lit

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Speaker 1: claims it's less filling. But what they don't tell you

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Speaker 1: is that it's made with these ingredients and they you know,

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Speaker 1: read all these all those seven and eight syllable words

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Speaker 1: that are on the ingredients of the beer bottle. What

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Speaker 1: aren't they telling you about, right? And then of course

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Speaker 1: there'd be an equal and opposite response. Bud Light thinks

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Speaker 1: it's the best beer to have in a football game.

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Speaker 1: But did you know when people drink bud Light, they're

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Speaker 1: more likely to you know, kill baby seals. And my

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Speaker 1: apologies to baby seals, and I know bud Light isn't

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Speaker 1: doing that. By the way, my apologies to all my

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Speaker 1: futures answers. I have kid here. But the point is,

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Speaker 1: eventually people would stop drinking. It's not that they would

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Speaker 1: stop drinking Miller Lite, stop drinking bud Light and might

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Speaker 1: move to Coors Light, or might move to Amsel Light.

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Speaker 1: They'd stop drinking beer, they'd lose that much trust and

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Speaker 1: in some ways, so now Donald Trump has spent all

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Speaker 1: this time convincing people that hey, this law enforcement, that

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Speaker 1: justice a par all politicized, so he now politicizes it.

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Speaker 1: And now he's actually politicizing it. And we see this

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Speaker 1: sort of kangaroo court potentially trying to indict Komy here

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Speaker 1: in trying to you know, in doing what he did

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Speaker 1: with Bolton and anybody that you know, especially by the way,

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Speaker 1: notice only Democrats get prosecuted now, but Tom Holman takes

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Speaker 1: them back of cash. We're going to drop the charges again.

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Speaker 1: The most astonishing aspect of the entire Tom Holman story,

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Speaker 1: the border guy who took the fifty grand, is that

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Speaker 1: a there's no denial that he took the fifty grand,

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Speaker 1: and be there just sort of like nothing to see here.

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Speaker 1: We've just shut down the investigation. I mean, it's you're

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Speaker 1: just like, are we really living in normal times? Right?

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Speaker 1: Or are we? Or did Biff take the gambling book

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Speaker 1: and we went back in time and we living on

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Speaker 1: some alternative timeline? Right? Sometimes I buy into the alternative

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Speaker 1: timeline thing all the time because you see his behavior

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Speaker 1: and you're like, at some point, Sasha bar Cohen is

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Speaker 1: going to rip off his Trump mask and tell us

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Speaker 1: that this has been a gag the whole time, Right,

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Speaker 1: Like there's that there's not a zero percent chance of this, right,

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Speaker 1: there's like a point five percent chance. You know, Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump is the biggest Sasha Baric Cohen gag that we've

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Speaker 1: ever ever had President bor at but in all seriousness,

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Speaker 1: she got one side not believe in it. Now you're

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Speaker 1: going to use and politicize the Justice Department of the FBI.

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Speaker 1: And there's already a Congressman Mark v says, I don't

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Speaker 1: trust anything. The FBI says, right, they have the over.

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Speaker 1: Overnight we had another attack on an ICE facility. This

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Speaker 1: is very troubling and apparently it is anti people who

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Speaker 1: are angry at Ice. It's it's certainly coming uh, certainly

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Speaker 1: politicized violence. Uh. And I please, will everybody stop trying

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Speaker 1: to decide whose side is more prone to violence. The

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Speaker 1: fact of the matter is nobody's hands are clean, and

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Speaker 1: violence is only going to get more violence. All right,

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Speaker 1: we have to turn down the rhetoric, turn down these things, right.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't help. Right, I'm not going to sit here

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Speaker 1: and say ICE is bringing this upon themselves. Well, why

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Speaker 1: are we masking the agents when they come after people?

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Speaker 1: This is America. This is not jack booted thugs coming

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Speaker 1: in at the you know, that is not what America

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Speaker 1: is supposed to be. And so all of this stuff

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Speaker 1: is going to get met. When you sort of govern

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Speaker 1: in a nihilistic way, you're gonna get You're gonna end

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Speaker 1: up creating a lot of nihilists. And that's a very

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Speaker 1: scary proposition for those of us that would like to

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Speaker 1: live in free, normal America. But what are the consequences

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Speaker 1: if nobody believes anything the FBI does now in the

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Speaker 1: left or the right, and nobody believes the Justice Department

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Speaker 1: on the left or the right. Because that's the situation

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Speaker 1: we've now entered. And this is in what this means

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Speaker 1: is And look, I'm not going to sit here. I

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Speaker 1: refuse to say that's it. The democracy's lost. As I

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Speaker 1: said though in my long open last in my previous episode,

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Speaker 1: I really do believe Trump is wearing the public out,

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Speaker 1: and I think they're gonna want off the roller coaster,

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Speaker 1: just like they did the first time that they just

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Speaker 1: don't like this constant motion of his right. There's always motion,

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Speaker 1: never movement. Nothing gets better. And as people have the

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Speaker 1: lived experience of high power bills and higher cost of

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Speaker 1: to live and higher healthcare premiums and all of these

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Speaker 1: things that are coming down the pike in the next

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Speaker 1: six months, all this other stuff's going to accumulate too.

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Speaker 1: But just because Trump's gone doesn't mean we're not going

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Speaker 1: to have work to do to restore the public's confidence

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Speaker 1: in the Justice Department, restore the public's confidence in the FBI.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we're you know, it took arguably two decades

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Speaker 1: for the FBI's reputation to recover after Hoover. Look, let's

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Speaker 1: not pretend Comy didn't do his share of damage to

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Speaker 1: the reputation of the FBI. Some of it was more

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Speaker 1: Comy where you know, this is another problem in our Americans.

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Speaker 1: Everybody tries to take matters into their own hands. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to do this alone. I'll stop Trump, right, I

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Speaker 1: will do it. And all of these folks that have

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Speaker 1: gone off on their own to try to to try

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Speaker 1: to mitigate things or try to try to solve what

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Speaker 1: looks like an intractable problem only serve to make things worse.

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Speaker 1: We're going to have to come up with a smarter

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Speaker 1: way and a better way to to have a you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't think the attorney general should be an appointed

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Speaker 1: by the President of the United States. You know, this

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Speaker 1: is one of those cases where we're going to need

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Speaker 1: a couple of generations, you know, removed before we can

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Speaker 1: trust uh an American president to appoint a fair attorney general.

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Speaker 1: And we should come up with a better way. There's

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Speaker 1: you know, there's the Federal Reserve model where the attorney

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Speaker 1: general maybe serves five year terms. And maybe I've had

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Speaker 1: this idea where you would have the attorney general, you know,

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Speaker 1: appointed by a sitting president when it's when it's vacant,

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Speaker 1: but it doesn't automatically happen at the start of an

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Speaker 1: administration no matter what. It's a five year term. Hard stop.

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Speaker 1: UH and the and the four deputies would be five

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Speaker 1: year terms, but you would have them staggered. And in

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Speaker 1: my utopia here, you'd openly have a few deputy attorney

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Speaker 1: general is appointed by ours, a few deputy appointed, just

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Speaker 1: like you have on the Federal Reserve, the Fed governors,

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Speaker 1: some of them are Biden appointees, and some of them

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Speaker 1: are Trump appointees. That's that sort of was was how

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Speaker 1: the system was designed to continue to always you put

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Speaker 1: a check everywhere wherever you can put a check and

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Speaker 1: balance in, you put a check and balance in, right,

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Speaker 1: And that's what we did with the Federal Reserve and

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Speaker 1: the Fed governors, and I think that's what we're going

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Speaker 1: to have to do with the Justice Department. We've always

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Speaker 1: attempted this with the FBI. Those are technically supposed to

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Speaker 1: be five year terms, but we've gotten into this habit

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Speaker 1: now of you know, well, Joe Biden kept Christopher Ray,

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Speaker 1: a Trump appointee, which I think was sort of healthy

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Speaker 1: for civil I think it was helpful that it was

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Speaker 1: Trump appointee Christopher Ray at the FBI during the entire

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Speaker 1: tenure of Joe Biden. That should be a good, healthy sign,

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Speaker 1: right that our rule of law is good. By immediately

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Speaker 1: changing these folks out with the new president like Trump

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Speaker 1: did and literally replacing Christopher Ray with this cash Ptel character,

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Speaker 1: we really have put I mean, you know, the morale

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Speaker 1: at the FBI is in the toilet, which is not good.

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Speaker 1: And we've taken FBI agents off of stuff that they're

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Speaker 1: supposed to do. You know the fact that you drop

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Speaker 1: a case like what they stumbled upon with Tom Homan,

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Speaker 1: that's only going to undermine morale even more so. The

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Speaker 1: point is is when we're looking for a new president

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty eight, regardless if it's a d R

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Speaker 1: or I I know, I'm going to be looking for

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Speaker 1: what are you going to do to restore trust? And

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Speaker 1: I don't want your word for it. Show me what

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Speaker 1: you're going to do to create struck you know, a trust,

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Speaker 1: but verify. To borrow a great line from Ronald Reagan,

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Speaker 1: We're not going to trust the Soviets. We're going to verify.

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Speaker 1: And that's what we kind of need with our legal

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Speaker 1: system because Donald Trump is taking a blowtorch to its credibility.

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Speaker 1: There's no doubt there have been individual operators that have

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Speaker 1: sort of get sort of in some ways allowed Trump

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Speaker 1: to do this. James Comey's a big, big part of that,

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Speaker 1: no doubt about it. But we're going to have to

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Speaker 1: do a lot to fix this on that front. There's

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Speaker 1: a reason results matter more than promises, just like there's

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Speaker 1: a reason Morgan and Morgan is America's largest injury law firm.

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Speaker 1: For the last thirty five years, they've recovered twenty five

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Speaker 1: billion dollars for more than half a million clients. It

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Speaker 1: includes cases where insurance companies offered next to nothing, just

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Speaker 1: hoping to get away with paying as little as possible.

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Speaker 1: Morgan and Morgan fought back ended up winning millions. In fact,

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Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania, one client was awarded twenty six million dollars,

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Speaker 1: which was a staggering forty times the amount that the

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Speaker 1: insurance company originally offered. That original offer six hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty thousand dollars twenty six million, six hundred and fifty

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars. With more than a thousand lawyers across the country,

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Speaker 1: they know how to deliver for everyday people. If you're injured,

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Speaker 1: you need a lawyer. You need somebody to get your back.

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Speaker 2: Check out for the People dot com, Slash podcast or

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Speaker 2: now pound law, Pound five two nine law on your

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Speaker 2: cell phone. And remember all law firms are not the same.

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Speaker 2: So check out Morgan and Morgan. Their fee is free

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Speaker 2: unless they win. All right, let me go down a

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Speaker 2: little bit of the campaign rabbit holes. We've had a

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Speaker 2: lot of interesting developments in twenty twenty five and twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty six.

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Speaker 1: But I'm going to start it off by talking about

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Speaker 1: all things Mom Donnie. Right, Zoon Mumdani, the Democratic nominee

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Speaker 1: for mayor in New York City. There has been this

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Speaker 1: sort of frustration among progressives who are very excited about

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Speaker 1: his candidacy that many mainstream members of the Democratic Party

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Speaker 1: refuse to endorse them. Right, Andy Cuomo is still sitting

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Speaker 1: out there as a candidate on another ballot line. The

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Speaker 1: current sitting mayor Gata, who was also once a Democrat.

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Speaker 1: He's going to be on another ballot line. There's been

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Speaker 1: this talk Carlos, Carlos, I keep calling Carlos. Curtis Sliwah,

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Speaker 1: who is the official Republican nominee, went public today and

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Speaker 1: said he's been offered money by various big donors to

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Speaker 1: get out of the race. Essentially, he's saying he's been

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Speaker 1: offered bribes to drop out of the race. If there

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Speaker 1: was a one on one Cuomo, Mom Donnie, polls are

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Speaker 1: showing it would be competitive, and I think it would

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Speaker 1: be quite competitive if it actually happened, right, if Adams

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Speaker 1: got out and Sleewa got out. But it doesn't look

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Speaker 1: like it's going to happen, and I still don't know

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Speaker 1: if Cuomo wins right, Cuomo was the flawed was the

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Speaker 1: flawed candidate here? It's why mom Donni's the nominee. But

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Speaker 1: what's been interesting is, you know, you saw a form

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Speaker 1: of it when Kamala Harris did her first interview on

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Speaker 1: her new book one hundred and seven Days. And we've

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Speaker 1: gone through that. No senseor rehashing what's in the book

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Speaker 1: right now. That's in the previous episode if you want

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Speaker 1: to know more about what I think on that. But

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Speaker 1: she was asked about her thoughts on that primary and

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Speaker 1: I'm just going to read you to the transcript because

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Speaker 1: it's it's quite something. Here's Madaw. What do you think

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Speaker 1: of him and his candidacy and what do you think

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Speaker 1: of mainline Democratic shyness and agitation about the prospect that

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Speaker 1: he's going to win? Harris? Look, as far as I'm concerned,

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Speaker 1: he's the Democratic nominee and he should be supported. Matt Out,

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Speaker 1: do you endorse his candidacy, Harris? I support the Democrat

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Speaker 1: in the race. Sure, But let me just say this,

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Speaker 1: He's not the only star I know that he's in

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Speaker 1: New York, and I know New Yorkers think they're the

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Speaker 1: center of the world, and here we are in New

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Speaker 1: York having this interview. She wouldn't say his name. Here's

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Speaker 1: the thing, I'm going to sort of torture a yodaism, Right,

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Speaker 1: Whenever you're in doubt, there's usually an answer in Star

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Speaker 1: Wars to help you out here, right, one of my

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Speaker 1: favorite Yoda lines is that there is no try. There

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Speaker 1: is you know, do or not do? There is no trie. Right,

428
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:03,160
Speaker 1: that's one of his I think when he's training Luke

429
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:07,920
Speaker 1: Skywalker to be a Jedi. Well, I sort of feel

430
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,879
Speaker 1: the same way about mom. Donnie Right, you're either in

431
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 1: or you're out. I support the Democrat that you could

432
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,199
Speaker 1: have gotten away with the day after the primary. Was

433
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 1: not my first choice, second choice, or third choice. But

434
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:23,440
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, I'm going to support

435
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 1: the Democrat. When you've gone this long without endorsement, you

436
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 1: clearly are uncomfortable with having a Democratic socialist nominee for

437
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 1: the Democratic Party. By the way, how do you deal

438
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:40,119
Speaker 1: with something like that? Let me read you how a

439
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 1: Democrat who does not want to support him has put

440
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,959
Speaker 1: its trade for Josh Gottheimer Democrat from New Jersey. He

441
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,199
Speaker 1: wrote an opinion piece and he said look, he's a

442
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 1: believer in the big tent approach of the Democratic Party.

443
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:54,880
Speaker 1: He said, it's one of our greatest strengths. But then

444
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 1: he puts us, if we allow extremist views like those

445
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,680
Speaker 1: of Democratic Socialists into the tent, it will blow right over.

446
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 1: It noted that the piece mentioned Mom Donnie by name,

447
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,639
Speaker 1: and it no doubt really ticked off a lot of

448
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 1: progressive members of Congress and progressive donors and progressive supporters.

449
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,200
Speaker 1: And Josh Gottheimer has been a part of I think

450
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,360
Speaker 1: the problem solver's caucus. He's definitely a centrist Democrat, there's

451
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 1: no doubt about it. But he at least sort of

452
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 1: took a stand and he explained why he couldn't support him. Right,

453
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,879
Speaker 1: either you want the Democratic Socialists in the tent or

454
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 1: you don't. And I think it's a fair debate to

455
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:37,680
Speaker 1: be having. I understand the concern that Josh Gottheimer says,

456
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 1: I understand the case that an AOC or Bernie Sanders

457
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 1: would make no no, no, no. Hey, you want to

458
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 1: have as broad of a coalition as you want. And

459
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 1: this is a growing segment of the Democratic Party. There's

460
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 1: plenty of polling showing that the idea of socialism is

461
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 1: getting more traction among Democrats. Now you know my thesis

462
00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 1: on this, I just I just think it it. If

463
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,479
Speaker 1: you get branded with the S word, you're never going

464
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 1: to win the presidency. You're not going to be a

465
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 1: national party because the Sun belt will be off limits

466
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,400
Speaker 1: to the Democrats. It just will. I'm not saying the

467
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 1: policies that Mam Donni's putting out there are unpopular. It

468
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: is the branding of socialism. It is a bad brand.

469
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,399
Speaker 1: It is not recoverable by putting the words democrat in

470
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 1: front of it. It is an unrecoverable brand. Hard stop, Okay, unrecoverable.

471
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 1: So you got to just sort of say but to

472
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 1: be mealy mouthed about it, you end up ticking off everybody.

473
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,159
Speaker 1: She couldn't bring it, mention it. She endorsed mom Donnie

474
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,160
Speaker 1: without mentioning his name, meaning Kamala Harris. That's not making

475
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 1: progressives happy, and it's certainly not making the Gottheimer's of

476
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 1: the world who are nervous about this happy. Chuck Schumer

477
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 1: and Akim Jeffries are totally at this point. If you

478
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 1: come if Schumer or Jeffries comes out and supports them,

479
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,880
Speaker 1: you're it is okay for me if you are wondering,

480
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,959
Speaker 1: is there a gun behind their back that I can't see?

481
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 1: Is this a hostage video when they put it out,

482
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:11,199
Speaker 1: And I'm sure if they do it, they'll do it

483
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 1: so they don't have to take questions, which means it'll

484
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 1: come across as some terrible video. If at this point,

485
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 1: if you have an endorsed mom Donnie, it means you're uncomfortable,

486
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 1: so say the word I get it. If not him,

487
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: who And if you live in New York City, what

488
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 1: are you supposed to do if you're a Keem Jefferies.

489
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 1: Now he's also in the uncomfortable position where he wants

490
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 1: to be Speaker of the House and he needs the

491
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,719
Speaker 1: votes of all Democrats of all stripes that get elected.

492
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 1: And there's plenty of swing state Democrats who think socialism

493
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,719
Speaker 1: is a piece of carry on baggage for the party

494
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 1: that is just too heavy to carry over the finish line.

495
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 1: Maybe you can survive in a midterm, but it's going

496
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 1: to be awfully hard in twenty twenty eight. But the

497
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 1: absurdity of basically not doing it at this point, I

498
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 1: think we've all learned that. I do think the voter

499
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 1: respects authenticity. I think we all know that. I think

500
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 1: the voter will respect disagreeing if you're straightforward about it

501
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 1: and you explain yourself, but trying to trying to sort

502
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 1: of him in hall and trying to have it both ways. Well,

503
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 1: of course I support the Democratic nominee. Again, you could

504
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 1: have gotten away with that in the first couple of days.

505
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 1: That could have been a standard answer. It wasn't my

506
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,479
Speaker 1: first choice for the primary, but I believe in standing

507
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 1: by the party, and if the party wants to support him,

508
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:33,719
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not going to stop it. That's how

509
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: you could have gotten out of this and done it

510
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 1: on day one. But it's pretty clear that they've been looking.

511
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 1: They're waiting to see if this is ever going to

512
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 1: turn into a one on one. But of course, the

513
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 1: original sin here, and you know how I love to

514
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 1: throw that phrase around. The original sin here is looking

515
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 1: the other way when Cuomo came in as if he

516
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 1: was a good idea as a candidate. You know, so

517
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 1: I I, you know, look at both Schumer and Jeffries

518
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 1: on this one and think an hokeel the three of them.

519
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 1: I'll throw in, Letitia James, if you're the leaders of

520
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 1: the Democratic Party. How did you just look the other

521
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 1: way when Andy Cuomo decided to show up and how

522
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 1: did you guys naively think that he was going to

523
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 1: be able to win that primary? I mean, it is

524
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 1: one of the more astonishing developments. But I do think

525
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 1: at this point do or don't do? Explain yourself, but

526
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 1: don't do this mushy mital stuff, you know, and in

527
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 1: some ways, you know, I'm sure Kamala Harris wasn't fully

528
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 1: thinking that she was going to get asked the mom

529
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 1: Donnie question, although if you watch a little bit of

530
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 1: MSNBC you should have known that it might be coming.

531
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 1: Maybe she wasn't prepared for it, but I don't think

532
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 1: it served her well on that front. And look, she

533
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 1: was possibly speaking as a party leader who didn't want

534
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 1: to offend any Democrat of any strike, which I understand,

535
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 1: but you need to be a little bit clear eyed.

536
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 1: And if you're going to endorse them, endorse them. Hulkl

537
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 1: did it. I think she had her own political reasons

538
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 1: to do it. She's getting challenged. She could have a

539
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: serious primary challenge from her former lieutenant governor, and the

540
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 1: challenge would come from the left. But it's a watching

541
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 1: this sort of democratic hand ringing, it doesn't inspire a

542
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 1: lot of confidence in the party for people looking for

543
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 1: confidence in a democratic party that still doesn't know who

544
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 1: it is, still feels pretty leaderless, and in some ways

545
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 1: this Mom Donnie hand ringing is only symbolic of the

546
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 1: problems the party has. And look until they have a

547
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 1: nominee in twenty eight, I think we're going to have

548
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 1: a lot of this sort of a lot of these

549
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 1: conversations about boy, there's Democrats don't know how to row

550
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 1: in the same direction these days. Speaking of New York Democrats,

551
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 1: though I have not had a chance to weigh in

552
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 1: on the news from the world of AOC, alexandri Ocasio

553
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 1: cortesday put out word that she's looking at running for

554
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 1: something else in twenty twenty eight, either for the US

555
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 1: Senate Chuck Schumer seed is up in twenty twenty eight,

556
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 1: or for president. I think what's interesting is she's already

557
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 1: hinting it where she's leaning. While she's done the Bernie tour,

558
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 1: She's also quietly spent her summer doing meet and greets

559
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 1: and getting to know folks in upstate New York. I

560
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 1: have to tell you This is just another reminder to

561
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 1: me that AOC is one smart and savvy political here's

562
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 1: a political elected political official who's also pretty politically savvy.

563
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 1: I don't think she can win the presidency, certainly not

564
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty eight. And I don't think the Democratic

565
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 1: nominee is ready to the Democratic Party is ready to

566
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 1: go that liberal, as I just pointed out. But she

567
00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: can win a Senate seat, and I would be I

568
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 1: don't think Chuck Schumer is running again. You know, there's

569
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 1: a reason he didn't say whether he was running again normally,

570
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 1: you know he didn't. He didn't I at this point, right,

571
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 1: he's he would lose a generational he would lose to

572
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 1: her or somebody else in a generational way. Now, look,

573
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 1: Chuck Schumer's a tough pu He's a tough Paul, and

574
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 1: I mean that as a compliment the guy has. The

575
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 1: guy's had a very successful career as leader of the party.

576
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 1: You know, he's not a policy visionary, but he's never

577
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: pretended to be a policy visionary. He's had his day

578
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 1: in the sun. I would say, I think in the

579
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 1: last couple of cycles he kind of lost his fastball.

580
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 1: He'd get behind candidates that were the wrong candidates he'd

581
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 1: get behind. He'd try to clear primary fields. He'd semi

582
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 1: successfully do it for bad nominees. In some cases he'd

583
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 1: do it and that nominee would lose, and that would

584
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 1: become embarrassing. It has been interesting to watch the d

585
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:02,720
Speaker 1: SEC this cycle. They've been trying to get behind candidates,

586
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 1: and outside of shared Brown in Ohio, they've had a

587
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 1: hard time. You know, they have a preference in Iowa,

588
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 1: three other people have jumped in. They have a preference.

589
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: In Michigan, two other people jumped in. They have a preference.

590
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 1: In Minnesota, six people have jumped in. I believe they

591
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 1: have a preference. In Texas, there's already a couple of

592
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:26,320
Speaker 1: candidates in that race. So it is interesting that Schumer

593
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 1: has lost all of that kind of influence and the

594
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 1: DCC has lost all that kind of influence. So I

595
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 1: don't expect him to run again. So I look at

596
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:38,840
Speaker 1: what the AOC is doing, and the fact that she

597
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 1: put out both tells me she's going to run for

598
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 1: the Senate, and that's probably going to be the most

599
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 1: covered US Senate race since a woman named Hillary Clinton

600
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 1: ran for New York Senate back in two thousand. In fact,

601
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:58,760
Speaker 1: it was in a presidential I remember the two thousand

602
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 1: presidential races to me, right, the overtime, the recount, all

603
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:06,359
Speaker 1: of those things. I always said, you know, the two

604
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 1: thousand election was an election, and nobody realized was important

605
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 1: until after we held the vote, and the coverage itself

606
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,720
Speaker 1: was that way. The Hillary Clinton candidacy got almost equal

607
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 1: billing with Bush v. Gore at the time, and that

608
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 1: maybe why the race itself ended up essentially a virtual tie.

609
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 1: A few other interesting nuggets here. Lisa Murkowski going public

610
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 1: saying that she's not ruled out running for governor of

611
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:40,399
Speaker 1: Alaska in twenty twenty six. Her father was governor. He's

612
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 1: the one that lost in a primary to Sarah Palin.

613
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 1: In fact, he's one of the Losing a primary as

614
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 1: a sitting governor is one of the most unique things

615
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 1: to happen in American politics, and Frank Murkowski is one

616
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 1: that did it. Frank Murkowski basically lost because he appointed

617
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 1: his daughter to the Senate see to replace him. He

618
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 1: was senator and then he became governor. That was a

619
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 1: real that that type of nepotism didn't play well. Now

620
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:10,880
Speaker 1: over time, Lisa Murkowski earned the support of Alaskans, and

621
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 1: I now think she is clearly her own person. But

622
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 1: it's interesting to see that, you know, everything's coming full circle.

623
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 1: She's thinking about running for governor, which is a little

624
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 1: surprising because Mary Petola the former Democratic at large House

625
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,839
Speaker 1: member there. She's being recruited by Washington Democrats to run

626
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:33,880
Speaker 1: for the US Senate seat that's held by Dan Sullivan,

627
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 1: and she's being recruited by Alaska Democrats run for governor.

628
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 1: And I think she has a real shot at winning

629
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 1: the governorship. I do not think Peltola could win a

630
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 1: Senate race against Sullivan. Sullivan is not mega. Dan Sullivan

631
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 1: is a John McCain type of Republican. He's Ian Murkowski

632
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,240
Speaker 1: have much more in common than he has in common

633
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 1: with say a Tad Cruise. Now. I think if he

634
00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 1: heard me say that, he'd secretly agree and publicly have

635
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 1: to say that's not true, that's not true, because he

636
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 1: doesn't want to get primary from the right on that front.

637
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 1: But I think it's a tough race. I think it's

638
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:13,320
Speaker 1: tough for Patola to turn Sullivan into a trumpet, a trumper,

639
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,279
Speaker 1: it's just not I think that's a tough thing to do.

640
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 1: It's if it were an open seat, would it be winnable? Sure,

641
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,320
Speaker 1: And the governor's race is an open seat. Ironically, the

642
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:25,840
Speaker 1: term limited governor is already announced that he's going to

643
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 1: run for murkowski Senate seat in twenty twenty eight. So

644
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,919
Speaker 1: now it's interesting to hear Murkowski say she's publicly thinking

645
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 1: about it. We shall find out, you know, soonish enough.

646
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 1: I don't know why anybody wants to be in the

647
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 1: Senate right now. And we've already seen Michael Bennett in Colorado.

648
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 1: Screw this, I want to run for governor of Colorado.

649
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 1: Marshall Blackburn, screw this. I want to run for governor

650
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 1: of Tennessee. The football coach Tommy Tupperville, who never really

651
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:55,760
Speaker 1: understood being a senator, now he's going to be governor.

652
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 1: We'll see how that works out. But he also wants

653
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 1: out of Washington. Washington ain't a fun play right now

654
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,279
Speaker 1: in the US Senate, and the US Senate isn't what

655
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:06,439
Speaker 1: the US Senate used to be. It's basically just run

656
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 1: by the two leaders and you don't really get to

657
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 1: do anything. So, you know, the one thing Murkowski in

658
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 1: her own way, because she is a wild card vote right,

659
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 1: She's not a vote Republicans can count on. You never

660
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:22,319
Speaker 1: know where she's going to go. She has leverage and

661
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:27,319
Speaker 1: that makes at least I think her time in the

662
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 1: Senate interesting where she gets to be involved in a

663
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,439
Speaker 1: lot more of of the process. But if you told

664
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 1: me she was exhausted from doing that, and she enjoys

665
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 1: living in Alaska, She's not somebody that enjoys living here

666
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 1: in Washington. I think if she could find a path

667
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: to win, she would do this. The trouble is, could

668
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:49,080
Speaker 1: she win a primary or would she run as an independent?

669
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 1: And I think that would be an obviously with the

670
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 1: RANKD choice voting, it's a way in, but fascinating. Keep

671
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 1: it eye on that couple of quick nuggets about sort

672
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 1: of my economic canaries in the coal mine. I think

673
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 1: it's worth noting. I don't know if you noticed this,

674
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 1: but while most food companies this was in the New

675
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 1: York Times a couple of days ago. While most food

676
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 1: companies are seeing declined and consumer demand for their product,

677
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:24,319
Speaker 1: sales of Hamburger Helper are up fourteen and a half

678
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,799
Speaker 1: percent in the year through August. That is, according to

679
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 1: the company that owns Hamburger Helper eagle foods now. In

680
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 1: the seventies, hamburger helper became famous. It was a staple

681
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 1: on American dinner tables because during that huge period of

682
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 1: stagflation and inflation, this is what I grew up with.

683
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 1: Hamburger helper was seen as how you took a little

684
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 1: bit of meat and stretched it out. It was a

685
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 1: way to take a pound of ground beat and turn

686
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 1: it into an entire meal for four to five. So

687
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 1: it was you know, as people are pinching pennies, you

688
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,880
Speaker 1: look for these little signs that the economy is contracting.

689
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:04,840
Speaker 1: The fact that hamburger helper sales are back up and

690
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 1: haven't been back up says something. By the way, purchases

691
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 1: of rice is up seven and a half percent. You

692
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 1: know you're starting to see more distressed shoppers buying more

693
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 1: cans of tuna, salm and sardines. When you see canned meats,

694
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 1: rice and beans, hamburger helper, this is a sign of

695
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 1: people trying to pinch pennies because the cost to live

696
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,359
Speaker 1: has gotten to high. One other canary in the coal

697
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:35,359
Speaker 1: mine cardboard box demand this. This is what I got

698
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 1: from my friend John Ellis, who runs news items. By

699
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 1: the way, I highly recommend subscribing to his substack news items.

700
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:46,800
Speaker 1: It is terrific he has. He shares. John Alis shares

701
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 1: some interests that I share. He loves space, he loves technology, science,

702
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:56,359
Speaker 1: There's always he never misses. He's like in some ways

703
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:57,920
Speaker 1: he doesn't realize this, even though I know he's a

704
00:40:57,960 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 1: political joker. And for those of you, John Ellis is

705
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 1: a cousin of the Bushes. He is a Bush, but

706
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:06,320
Speaker 1: he was his mom's a Bush, his father's and Ellis

707
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:08,759
Speaker 1: and in fact Jeb for those of you, a boy,

708
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 1: Jeb Bush, j Eb, that's actually John Ellis Bush. Those

709
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 1: are his initials and that's why he was always known

710
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 1: as Jeb. But he and John Ellis are first cousin.

711
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 1: But anyway, John Ellis has this terrific substack news items.

712
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,840
Speaker 1: And this was in his news item about cardboard box

713
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 1: demand slumping. Another potential warning sign about the health of

714
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 1: the American consumer given that goods ranging from pizzas to

715
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 1: ovens are transported in corrugated packaging i e. Cardboard, and

716
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 1: we have had an historic run of pulp mill closures,

717
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 1: signaling problems for companies that make corrugated packaging, as well

718
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 1: as timberland owners who seldom would International Paper, which is

719
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 1: the country's biggest box maker. This is all from the

720
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal. By the way, announced last month the

721
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 1: shutdown of two US US container board mills, which make

722
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:05,359
Speaker 1: the brown paper that is sold that is folded into

723
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 1: the corrugated packaging. So the fact that demand is down,

724
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 1: meaning you're getting fewer Amazon boxes to your house. You're

725
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 1: going fewer anyway. I don't want to sound doom and gloomish,

726
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 1: but we were, you know, I'm just living in reality.

727
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 1: This consumer economy stinks, and it's the economy looks better

728
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: than it is. The stock market is on a high

729
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 1: thanks to AI investment and sort of crypto what I

730
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 1: would call sort of the legalization the the legalization of

731
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:42,840
Speaker 1: crypto essentially right, it is created sort of wealth that

732
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,239
Speaker 1: was sort of hidden wealth. So we have this sort

733
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 1: of new wealth that is created. It is what happens

734
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 1: is they legalize some of this crypto. The guys that

735
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:53,680
Speaker 1: owned a whole bunch of it are hurrying up and

736
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:56,400
Speaker 1: selling it, trading it in and buying Microsoft and Google

737
00:42:56,440 --> 00:43:00,319
Speaker 1: and Amazon, sort of the Big Apple, those big those

738
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 1: big large cap companies that are almost feel like treasury

739
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 1: bills these days if you own a sheriff stock in them,

740
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 1: which is why those companies shares keep going up as

741
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 1: people trade in all of that. The point is it's

742
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:17,400
Speaker 1: painting an artificial picture of a health economy. If you

743
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:20,799
Speaker 1: have money, you're doing okay in this economy, although you've

744
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:22,719
Speaker 1: probably noticed your power bills up and all this other

745
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:25,759
Speaker 1: stuff is up. But if you didn't have a lot

746
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 1: of savings in the stock market and your paycheck to

747
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 1: paycheck or almost paycheck to paycheck, this economy sucks. And

748
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 1: these are just a few examples. So with that I

749
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:41,920
Speaker 1: will pause there. I hope you enjoy my conversation with

750
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 1: doctor Michael Osterholm. I'm not here to freak you out

751
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:48,880
Speaker 1: about the next pandemic. What you will hear though, is

752
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 1: what a responsible way public health should work, and we

753
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,759
Speaker 1: need some reform obviously in the public health space. So

754
00:43:57,760 --> 00:43:59,360
Speaker 1: with that, we'll sneak in a break for those of

755
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 1: you listening to it. To everything in one download, Michael

756
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 1: Osterholme when we come back, Well, joining me now is

757
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 1: somebody who during the pandemic quickly became not just my

758
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:25,720
Speaker 1: go to expert and trying to understand what's coming next

759
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 1: with the pandemic, but he was easily the most I

760
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:32,800
Speaker 1: think trusted person I would book on Meet the Press

761
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 1: during the pandemic. It's doctor Michael Osterholme. I believe you're

762
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 1: still at the University of Minnesota. Is that correct?

763
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 3: Still here doing the same thing, slugging away.

764
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:44,239
Speaker 1: Except you are leaving your studio. There was a time

765
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 1: you didn't leave your house for quite some time.

766
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 3: Right, actually, I'm here right now.

767
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 1: But you did you have left?

768
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 3: You have left? Oh yeah, yeah, I'm out and about.

769
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:56,920
Speaker 1: You have a new book out with your co author

770
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 1: Mark Olshaker. It's called The Big One. I'll hold it

771
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 1: up for the camera and in some ways in the

772
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 1: tagline being how we must prepare for future deadly pandemics.

773
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 1: And on one hand, I'd sit here and say, we

774
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 1: really there's a lot of lessons to be learned from COVID.

775
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:19,840
Speaker 1: What I can't wait for the government after action report

776
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 1: of what we're going to do better next time? And

777
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:27,239
Speaker 1: oh wait, right, we're still waiting for that. The one

778
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:30,359
Speaker 1: big thing that struck me about this book is are

779
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:34,640
Speaker 1: American leaders ready for it? Meaning are they ready to

780
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:38,919
Speaker 1: actually tackle the preparation part? Or are we still too

781
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 1: hungover frankly from what we went through in twenty twenty

782
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 1: and twenty twenty one.

783
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 3: Well, let me just start out by saying that when

784
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:50,240
Speaker 3: you think about preparing for the big one, that seems

785
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:52,799
Speaker 3: miles and miles and miles away before we even get

786
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:54,840
Speaker 3: to that, because we're having such a problem preparing for

787
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 3: the immediate one, and what we're watching is basically the

788
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:01,880
Speaker 3: destruction of the public kel system unlikening i've seen in

789
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 3: my fifty years in the business, and so today, I mean,

790
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 3: I imagine this. All the leadership right now at the CDC,

791
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 3: all the executive office are appointed political individuals. They're all

792
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 3: appointed no scientific expertise whatsoever. Imagine if you had an

793
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 3: aircraft carrier and the top twelve people and that aircraft

794
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:27,760
Speaker 3: carrier command, we're all just appointed politically individuals. How confident

795
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:29,959
Speaker 3: would you be in that? And so I think, Chuck,

796
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:32,719
Speaker 3: we surely want to talk about the long term, because

797
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 3: it's inevitable we're going to have that, But I think

798
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:37,359
Speaker 3: we have to also recognize even in the short term

799
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:38,880
Speaker 3: right now, we're in big trouble.

800
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 1: Well, and that's but it also sort of opens up

801
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 1: the book implies we haven't had the big one what

802
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 1: was COVID.

803
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 3: Well, first of all, let me just kind of put

804
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 3: into perspective what a pandemic is in the sense of

805
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:56,239
Speaker 3: what we saw with COVID or what we saw with flu.

806
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,800
Speaker 3: Prior to COVID, we really thought that the only virus

807
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 3: that was capable of basically changing itself and then infecting

808
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 3: people around the world in a very effective way was

809
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:11,279
Speaker 3: in fluensa. We had morning sign that COVID could do this,

810
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:14,360
Speaker 3: or a coronavirus at least, And in fact, in the

811
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 3: book that Mark and I published in twenty seventeen, Deadliest

812
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 3: Enemies Our Wargan's Killer Germs, the actual chapter on coronavirus

813
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 3: was a harbinger of things to come, and so that

814
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 3: when we saw what happened with COVID, we shouldn't be surprised.

815
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 3: What else could happen. What do I mean by that, Well,

816
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 3: you know when SARS showed up in two thousand and three,

817
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:37,840
Speaker 3: remember that was a coronavirus, the severe acute respiratory syndrome,

818
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:40,239
Speaker 3: and I actually worked on that after At that time,

819
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:42,319
Speaker 3: I was still spending fifty percent of my time at

820
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 3: the Department Health Human Service was probably nine to eleven,

821
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 3: and we saw a virus that was not that infectious.

822
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 3: A couple of individuals were super spreaders, but basically we

823
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 3: were able to contrain that, but about fifteen to twenty

824
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 3: percent of the people who got SARS died. Well, then

825
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:00,919
Speaker 3: twenty twelve came along and we now had MERS Middle

826
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:03,880
Speaker 3: Eastern Rebsprietory Center. We started on the Arabian Peninsula and

827
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 3: again I was involved with that investigation as advisor to

828
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 3: the royal family. In the eye of the our emericks.

829
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:13,880
Speaker 3: There we saw a virus that the same way in

830
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:17,880
Speaker 3: terms of transmission, wasn't that infectious, with some individuals that

831
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:20,400
Speaker 3: were indeed super spreaders, but we could contain that. But

832
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 3: now up to thirty five percent of the people died

833
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 3: who got that infection. With COVID, we had about one

834
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:28,719
Speaker 3: and a half percent of the people who got infected died.

835
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:33,880
Speaker 3: And today we now have actually documented coronaviruses in the

836
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:39,320
Speaker 3: wild that actually have the onboard capability of being transmitted

837
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 3: as infectious as COVID was, but also have on board

838
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 3: the genetic package to kill at the same level as

839
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 3: we saw stars and mers. Now imagine that combination. Instead

840
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:53,799
Speaker 3: of one and a half percent of the people dying

841
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 3: we're now talking fifteen to twenty percent, and even in

842
00:48:57,200 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 3: our book we even hypothesize just what would it be

843
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:02,520
Speaker 3: like at seven and a half percent deaths among those

844
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:05,359
Speaker 3: who got sick. And so you could see, these really

845
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 3: are realistic concerns, and they may seem so frightening that

846
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:11,359
Speaker 3: we can't do anybout them, but we can, we can

847
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 3: do a lot about them.

848
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:15,160
Speaker 1: It was interesting. So what you're saying is that this

849
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:20,960
Speaker 1: coronavirus that we did experience at a one and a

850
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 1: half percent death rate doesn't qualify it to be the

851
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 1: big one, oh not.

852
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 3: At all, not even close. And or an influenza virus

853
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:32,200
Speaker 3: like nineteen eighteen that too would have killed many, many

854
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:35,839
Speaker 3: more people if it were to even happen today, And

855
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:39,399
Speaker 3: so that we have to recognize, you know, we could

856
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:42,160
Speaker 3: have another COVID like event, but we could have ones

857
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:45,640
Speaker 3: that'd be much much more severe. And this isn't movie making.

858
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 3: This isn't you know, some kind of scary scenario. These

859
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:51,080
Speaker 3: are the realities of what we are dealing with with

860
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:52,720
Speaker 3: these viruses today.

861
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:55,040
Speaker 1: You know, so much of your work before I would well,

862
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 1: let me ask you this, how much of your work

863
00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 1: before twenty twenty was about the virus itself and the

864
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:06,360
Speaker 1: science behind it, and less about the sort of the

865
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 1: psychology of the public and how it would react to it.

866
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:11,719
Speaker 1: You get where I'm going here.

867
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:14,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, Well I can't say how much was about

868
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 3: the psychology of the public, although I surely was very

869
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:21,720
Speaker 3: concerned about that. I actually I wrote an interesting piece

870
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:23,759
Speaker 3: back in two thousand and five when H five in

871
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:26,040
Speaker 3: one first first showed up and I was able to

872
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:29,839
Speaker 3: get the New England journal Medicine, Nature and Science all

873
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 3: on the same day to publish the same article that

874
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 3: I wrote, so that it was coordinated, calling into question

875
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 3: how prepared we were for a future pandemic and basically

876
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:40,920
Speaker 3: laid out all the reasons why we weren't.

877
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:46,760
Speaker 1: And didn't you frame that somewhat in bioterrorism, well, because ell.

878
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:48,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, it wasn't even in two thousand and five. It

879
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:51,799
Speaker 3: wasn't even bioterrorism yet, although I surely have talked a

880
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:55,279
Speaker 3: lot about the role that bioterrorism could play, and we're

881
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 3: very at risk for that very scenario today too. But

882
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:01,160
Speaker 3: the point of it was that we know that these

883
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 3: viruses are going to change. Pandemics are inevitable. You know,

884
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:07,239
Speaker 3: as I say, the pandemic clock is ticking. We just

885
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:09,759
Speaker 3: don't know what time it is. And people may say, well,

886
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 3: we just got through a pandemic, we won't have one

887
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 3: for a while.

888
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 1: Right, It's like a hurricane. Is it pandemic season?

889
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 3: Michael? Right? Well, or like a hurricane. We just got

890
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:18,840
Speaker 3: hit by a hurricane, so we won't get hit for

891
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:21,280
Speaker 3: another twenty or thirty years. Go out to the people

892
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:24,120
Speaker 3: in the southern United States about that, Okay? And so

893
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 3: I think that's the challenge we have today is helping

894
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:29,279
Speaker 3: people understand one they are going to happen too. They

895
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:30,879
Speaker 3: could be a hell of a lot worse than we've

896
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 3: already had.

897
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 1: Before we get to more on your book, because I

898
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:40,680
Speaker 1: am it really does. If it seems to me, you

899
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:43,960
Speaker 1: should be busy leading an after action report that is,

900
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:47,920
Speaker 1: you know, some sort of joint House, Senate Executive branch.

901
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,279
Speaker 1: We didn't do it, and I understand our I know

902
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:55,200
Speaker 1: why our politics haven't allowed for this to happen, But

903
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:59,160
Speaker 1: how much are we just I mean, if I want

904
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 1: to prepare for this one, I need to be understanding

905
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:06,239
Speaker 1: better what we could have done differently, and did we

906
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:11,520
Speaker 1: overreact in some places, underreact in others? If you were

907
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 1: charged with this after action report, where how would you

908
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:18,480
Speaker 1: be focusing your scholarship.

909
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:21,920
Speaker 3: Well, first of all, it's really important emphasized that we

910
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 3: do have examples for how after action reports can be

911
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:29,759
Speaker 3: such important tools for preparing for a future event or

912
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:32,799
Speaker 3: even preventing it. For example, you know, I had the

913
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:36,280
Speaker 3: good fortune after nine to eleven to spend three years

914
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:39,640
Speaker 3: as a fifty percent consultant the Department Health Human Services

915
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:42,319
Speaker 3: Tommy Thompson, and was able to get in on the

916
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:45,360
Speaker 3: early days of the Bipartisan Commission on nine to eleven,

917
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:49,320
Speaker 3: and I watched an event unfold there where it was

918
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:52,360
Speaker 3: nonpartisan with incredibly good leadership.

919
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 1: This is Tom Kaine and Hamilton exactly. Hamilton, Yeah, Lee,

920
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:57,759
Speaker 1: Hamilton is just two high class guys.

921
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:00,200
Speaker 3: Yeah. And you know what, there were a lot lot

922
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:05,080
Speaker 3: of challenges identified real world's efficiencies, but nobody pointed figures.

923
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:06,919
Speaker 3: What they did is they added them up. They said

924
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:08,319
Speaker 3: what can we do about them? How are we going

925
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:10,439
Speaker 3: to deal with them? And you know what we did

926
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:14,040
Speaker 3: A lot that came out of that after after report. Well,

927
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:16,799
Speaker 3: now what we have is it's all boiled down to

928
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:19,640
Speaker 3: one simple question. We just want to know why did

929
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:23,359
Speaker 3: you lie about Wuhan and and you know I talk

930
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 3: about that in the book and say, we're never going

931
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:27,440
Speaker 3: to know whether that virus leak from the lab or

932
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:30,320
Speaker 3: whether it was a spillover. I tend to sell personally favor.

933
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:31,360
Speaker 3: I think it was a spillover.

934
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 1: I was just going to say, I'm an Akham's razor guy.

935
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:37,640
Speaker 1: Like you know it the when they when when when

936
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:40,920
Speaker 1: the story came out that they found this virus in

937
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:43,520
Speaker 1: a remote part of the country, It's like, oh, they

938
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:45,839
Speaker 1: were trying to study it. It slipped out. I mean,

939
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:49,799
Speaker 1: you know, it feels like, you know, what's the most

940
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 1: logical reason, because why would the Chinese want to inflict

941
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:54,680
Speaker 1: something that they didn't have.

942
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:57,680
Speaker 3: A care for exactly. No, I think you're absolutely right.

943
00:53:57,920 --> 00:53:59,839
Speaker 3: And I think the point being here, though, is that

944
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:02,799
Speaker 3: we have to get off of that. You know, I

945
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:04,920
Speaker 3: keep saying there is so much we can do, and

946
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:05,719
Speaker 3: you know.

947
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:08,360
Speaker 1: Well, our friend doctor Fauci would say that it doesn't

948
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:11,840
Speaker 1: matter what the origin story is in this in this

949
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:15,320
Speaker 1: specific incident, because we've got to we've got to focus

950
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:16,960
Speaker 1: on preparation.

951
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:19,560
Speaker 3: Regardless we got a yeah, we need to prepare for both.

952
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,200
Speaker 3: And you know, at the very outseold. Let me just

953
00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:26,600
Speaker 3: say that this book really has two flavors to it

954
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:29,359
Speaker 3: that I don't think are very apparent necessarily. One, it's

955
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:32,080
Speaker 3: a love story, and it's a love story to my grandkids,

956
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:35,000
Speaker 3: because I sit here and say, oh my god, what

957
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:37,319
Speaker 3: kind of world might you experience in the future that

958
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:40,040
Speaker 3: we could really do something about. The second thing is

959
00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 3: I am an optimist at heart. I really believe that

960
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:48,880
Speaker 3: we can achieve tremendously important, game changing vaccines in the

961
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:53,319
Speaker 3: upcoming years with a really concentrated effort at research, that

962
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 3: we could have the vaccines available before the pandemic begins

963
00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:00,640
Speaker 3: that could be readily deployed, could be highly affect and

964
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:03,160
Speaker 3: if that were the case, we could take pandemics off

965
00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:06,080
Speaker 3: the table. But we're not doing anything to get there,

966
00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:08,400
Speaker 3: and that, I think is the real challenge, is that

967
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:10,239
Speaker 3: it'd be different if we had nothing to do. We

968
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:12,319
Speaker 3: don't know what to do. You know, it's inevitable. We

969
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:15,840
Speaker 3: can't stop hurricanes, okay, but in this case, we could

970
00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:18,480
Speaker 3: stop future pandemics dead in their tracks.

971
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:21,320
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about that, like so, I mean, because

972
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:24,360
Speaker 1: this is by the way, when you were writing your book,

973
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 1: did you assume that there that at Kennedy like figure

974
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:30,560
Speaker 1: would purge the CDC the way it's been purged, or

975
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:33,880
Speaker 1: did you write this book assuming we wouldn't have something

976
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:35,200
Speaker 1: that drastic happened?

977
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:37,200
Speaker 3: Well, let's put it this way. It was on the

978
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:39,840
Speaker 3: cusp of the intersection of the two. I wrote a

979
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:42,879
Speaker 3: piece in November in the New York Times in which

980
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:45,239
Speaker 3: I said, my god, world, wake up. This man who's

981
00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:47,440
Speaker 3: going to take our vaccines from us? Okay, go back

982
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:50,040
Speaker 3: and look at that piece predicted pretty much of everything

983
00:55:50,120 --> 00:55:52,239
Speaker 3: is he was going to do has been done, so

984
00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:54,400
Speaker 3: as I and we were just finishing the book at

985
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:56,719
Speaker 3: that point, so we were able to get a little

986
00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:59,800
Speaker 3: bit of that into the concluding chapters. But I have

987
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:02,560
Speaker 3: all recognized from the very beginning that he was going

988
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:06,000
Speaker 3: to basically destroy public health. Did I have the idea

989
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:08,160
Speaker 3: that he would do it as effectively and as quickly

990
00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:10,640
Speaker 3: as he did? No, I didn't. But I think it's

991
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:15,080
Speaker 3: really today the biggest challenge public health was faced in

992
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:16,040
Speaker 3: fifty years.

993
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:18,799
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny. I equated, I'm curious of what

994
00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 1: you think of this metaphor. I equated this sort of

995
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:28,319
Speaker 1: surge of anti vaxx views to what happened. It is

996
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:31,000
Speaker 1: not a coincidence. Now in hindsight, after watching how we

997
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:34,960
Speaker 1: behaved during COVID and after COVID as a society to

998
00:56:35,080 --> 00:56:40,000
Speaker 1: now realize, oh, the pandemic happens in nineteen eighteen, and

999
00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:43,520
Speaker 1: literally a year later, we're banning alcohol for the next decade,

1000
00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:46,520
Speaker 1: and we sort of lose our minds as a society

1001
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:49,640
Speaker 1: and within a decade realized, wait a minute, we're actually

1002
00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:52,920
Speaker 1: killing more people with bootleg alcohol. This is crazy. We

1003
00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:57,160
Speaker 1: just created a criminal syndicates that didn't exist before thanks

1004
00:56:57,160 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 1: to bootlegging. Right, is it possible we were in the

1005
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:04,360
Speaker 1: middle of just sort of losing our minds post pandemic.

1006
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:09,359
Speaker 1: Here is the anti vaxx movement similar to the sort

1007
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:13,560
Speaker 1: of temperance prohibition movement, and that it's always was out there,

1008
00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:16,720
Speaker 1: but it needed a moment to get traction, and COVID

1009
00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:17,280
Speaker 1: was the moment.

1010
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:20,439
Speaker 3: Well, I think you're right. In fact, while we saw

1011
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:24,960
Speaker 3: the anti vaxx activity well before COVID, even ten years ago,

1012
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:28,840
Speaker 3: it started. But in fact, the whole manifestation we see

1013
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:31,640
Speaker 3: now really I think did come off of COVID. You know,

1014
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:34,800
Speaker 3: I explain this with the idea that it really is

1015
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:38,000
Speaker 3: a metaphor for what all the people who thought that

1016
00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:41,520
Speaker 3: the pandemic response was a total failure, if not really

1017
00:57:41,560 --> 00:57:45,720
Speaker 3: a punishment in of itself, now have equated those feelings

1018
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 3: to the vaccine. Remember, the vaccine initially was heralded as

1019
00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:54,160
Speaker 3: President Trump's great accomplishment, and everybody thought this was going

1020
00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:57,720
Speaker 3: to be all the end all of the pandemic. Well,

1021
00:57:57,760 --> 00:58:00,200
Speaker 3: we didn't do a good job explaining that part. It

1022
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:01,800
Speaker 3: was not going to be, but it was still going

1023
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:05,920
Speaker 3: to have a major impact. And then when basically the

1024
00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:09,200
Speaker 3: pandemic began to end and no one could complain about

1025
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:12,080
Speaker 3: what was happening in terms of mandates and things like that,

1026
00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:15,320
Speaker 3: they still needed a way to be angry about it.

1027
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:18,840
Speaker 3: And so it became the vaccine. And so today, so

1028
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:22,040
Speaker 3: much I think of what is aimed at anti vaccine

1029
00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:25,880
Speaker 3: overall did come from COVID and it came from this idea.

1030
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:28,840
Speaker 3: You know, it's like out of network. You know, I'm

1031
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:30,600
Speaker 3: really damn mad at about everything.

1032
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:33,400
Speaker 1: I'm going to be mad, and I'm just going to

1033
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:33,800
Speaker 1: be mad.

1034
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:34,800
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1035
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:38,800
Speaker 1: So, if we're in a world where the government can't

1036
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 1: lead on public health, how do you prepare for the

1037
00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:43,520
Speaker 1: next big one?

1038
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:46,480
Speaker 3: Well, let me give you an example of what I

1039
00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:50,320
Speaker 3: think is just such an apparent mistake right now that's

1040
00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:55,200
Speaker 3: happening to our current capacity to make influenza vaccine, which

1041
00:58:55,280 --> 00:58:57,320
Speaker 3: is a good vaccine, not a great one. It doesn't

1042
00:58:57,320 --> 00:58:59,240
Speaker 3: stop you from getting in fact, it doesn't stop you

1043
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:01,400
Speaker 3: from eveningless like getting sick, but it has a lot

1044
00:59:01,440 --> 00:59:04,520
Speaker 3: to do with preventing you from having serious illness, hospitalizations,

1045
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:06,600
Speaker 3: and death, which I'll take any day of the week

1046
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:11,000
Speaker 3: as an outcome. If we were to have to make

1047
00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:15,440
Speaker 3: an influence of vaccine overnight for an emerging pandemic, using

1048
00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:18,800
Speaker 3: the egg base approach we do for growing the virus

1049
00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:21,120
Speaker 3: as an inberated chicken egg or a little bit of

1050
00:59:21,160 --> 00:59:24,320
Speaker 3: cell culture, we could make enough vaccine in the first

1051
00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:27,200
Speaker 3: year to fifteen months to only vaccinate about a quarter

1052
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:31,200
Speaker 3: of the world. That's it. mRNA technology, which of course

1053
00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:35,800
Speaker 3: was very important in the COVID response, actually could change

1054
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:39,600
Speaker 3: that substantially. And in this case, what we're talking about

1055
00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:42,640
Speaker 3: is a vaccine that still is good, not great. We

1056
00:59:42,640 --> 00:59:45,800
Speaker 3: want even better vaccines, but we could make enough covid

1057
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:49,480
Speaker 3: vaccine for flu to vaccinate the world likely in the

1058
00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:53,000
Speaker 3: first year. The difference between those two scenarios is literally

1059
00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:56,880
Speaker 3: millions and millions of deaths, millions of deaths, and yet

1060
00:59:56,960 --> 01:00:00,440
Speaker 3: we just ended a five hundred million dollars in vestment

1061
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:03,840
Speaker 3: in trying to make sure that we had the technology

1062
01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:08,000
Speaker 3: available and ready to go to make a COVID flash

1063
01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:13,560
Speaker 3: influenza mRNA vaccine. And why why did we do that?

1064
01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:16,640
Speaker 3: Because it was about ideology. It wasn't about the real science.

1065
01:00:16,880 --> 01:00:19,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's the Kennedy never produces science to back up

1066
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:23,920
Speaker 1: his gut feelings. There's never even like bad scientific research.

1067
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:24,720
Speaker 1: There's none.

1068
01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:28,760
Speaker 3: It's it beyond description of what this is. And I

1069
01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:33,000
Speaker 3: have to tell you last Thursday and Friday, the Advisory

1070
01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:35,920
Speaker 3: Communityanization Practices met at CDC. You know, this was the

1071
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:37,160
Speaker 3: advisor group to the CDC.

1072
01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:38,440
Speaker 1: Have you ever been on that group?

1073
01:00:38,520 --> 01:00:38,880
Speaker 4: I have not.

1074
01:00:39,200 --> 01:00:42,720
Speaker 3: I have not, but I've advised it for a number

1075
01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:45,160
Speaker 3: of years. But the bottom line was is that I

1076
01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:50,560
Speaker 3: have seen high school student console meetings held with more decorum,

1077
01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:54,320
Speaker 3: practice and effectiveness than I saw at that meeting last week.

1078
01:00:54,440 --> 01:00:57,360
Speaker 1: Wait, but the pharmacist said that she knew four different

1079
01:00:57,360 --> 01:01:00,480
Speaker 1: people who'd gotten a vaccine and something that happened to them. Yeah,

1080
01:01:00,880 --> 01:01:04,600
Speaker 1: it was I'm sorry that was like really set me off, Like,

1081
01:01:05,080 --> 01:01:08,840
Speaker 1: what the hell are we doing? We literally have just

1082
01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:13,720
Speaker 1: some random pharmacists who may or may not be uh

1083
01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:19,040
Speaker 1: well trained. I mean there are good pharmacises out there,

1084
01:01:19,080 --> 01:01:20,880
Speaker 1: don't get me wrong. You have to go through real training.

1085
01:01:21,400 --> 01:01:23,840
Speaker 1: But what do they know about the making of these things?

1086
01:01:23,960 --> 01:01:26,320
Speaker 3: They don't. And I think what was really more telling

1087
01:01:26,480 --> 01:01:28,800
Speaker 3: is you have somebody who's an expert in supply chain

1088
01:01:28,840 --> 01:01:31,720
Speaker 3: management out of the business world telling us all about

1089
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:36,840
Speaker 3: the imminology of mRNA vaccine technology and had no idea

1090
01:01:36,880 --> 01:01:39,800
Speaker 3: what he was talking about, and yet that came across

1091
01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:41,880
Speaker 3: that but it was more important. I mean, we actually

1092
01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:44,160
Speaker 3: had an example I can't get I can't make this

1093
01:01:44,200 --> 01:01:46,760
Speaker 3: stuff up where one of the members on a hot

1094
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:48,840
Speaker 3: Mike moment said, what do we just vote for?

1095
01:01:49,240 --> 01:01:49,800
Speaker 1: What was it?

1096
01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:52,200
Speaker 3: I mean he didn't even know what they voted for.

1097
01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:54,600
Speaker 3: I mean that was emblematic of.

1098
01:01:54,640 --> 01:01:57,320
Speaker 1: The entire two Well, what is it? They they voted

1099
01:01:57,360 --> 01:02:00,960
Speaker 1: against recommending the vaccine, but they're not going to force

1100
01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:02,600
Speaker 1: a prescription for it.

1101
01:02:02,640 --> 01:02:07,400
Speaker 3: Well for the chicken pox and MMR vaccine combination. They

1102
01:02:07,560 --> 01:02:10,840
Speaker 3: basically we've known about this for years and have made

1103
01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:14,439
Speaker 3: recommendations instead of having the combined vaccine for the first dose.

1104
01:02:14,760 --> 01:02:17,520
Speaker 3: Give the very cellar or the chicken pox vaccine separate

1105
01:02:17,520 --> 01:02:20,440
Speaker 3: from the MMR and therefore you don't have febrile seizures,

1106
01:02:20,480 --> 01:02:22,960
Speaker 3: these things that basically are benign. But you know it's

1107
01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:24,640
Speaker 3: hard for a parent to see. But that means you're

1108
01:02:24,640 --> 01:02:27,000
Speaker 3: going to get an extra stick and only then make

1109
01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:29,360
Speaker 3: it available for the second dose, where we don't see

1110
01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:32,160
Speaker 3: that phenomenon at all. Well, they voted to take away

1111
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:36,160
Speaker 3: the ability to use the two or the single vaccine

1112
01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:38,080
Speaker 3: for the young kids, but then they took a vote

1113
01:02:38,080 --> 01:02:40,760
Speaker 3: to have the vaccine for children's program pay for it,

1114
01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:43,320
Speaker 3: which seemed a little inconsistent. Okay, so they had to

1115
01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:45,800
Speaker 3: come back the next day and revote to undo the

1116
01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:48,240
Speaker 3: vote they did the day before. Again, you can't make

1117
01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:49,000
Speaker 3: this stuff.

1118
01:02:48,760 --> 01:03:02,720
Speaker 4: Up, No, I mean, it's Keystone Cops.

1119
01:03:02,760 --> 01:03:07,120
Speaker 1: Doesn't really doesn't really doesn't even work as a as

1120
01:03:07,160 --> 01:03:10,000
Speaker 1: a as a good description there. So I go back,

1121
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:14,320
Speaker 1: let's go back to if we don't have a government

1122
01:03:15,120 --> 01:03:18,360
Speaker 1: essentially getting I mean this move to m r NAX

1123
01:03:18,600 --> 01:03:23,760
Speaker 1: vaccines and this technology I mean, and the stuff it's

1124
01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:27,280
Speaker 1: doing and cancer treatments and this I mean to think

1125
01:03:27,320 --> 01:03:29,880
Speaker 1: that we have just pulled all this funding. I mean,

1126
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:32,000
Speaker 1: it feels like we just it's as if we said,

1127
01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:34,560
Speaker 1: you know what, this whole electricity thing, let's go back

1128
01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:39,800
Speaker 1: to candles. I mean, I where does this research go?

1129
01:03:40,600 --> 01:03:43,160
Speaker 1: Is it all going to be dispersed in universities and

1130
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:46,120
Speaker 1: if the or are we going to just have less

1131
01:03:46,120 --> 01:03:48,560
Speaker 1: and less of this research and hope that the French

1132
01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:51,400
Speaker 1: and the Koreans have more success.

1133
01:03:51,720 --> 01:03:54,360
Speaker 3: Well, let me just paint a very quick landscape picture

1134
01:03:54,400 --> 01:03:57,680
Speaker 3: of what's happening simultaneously. Because it's not added, it's really

1135
01:03:58,080 --> 01:04:01,200
Speaker 3: in a sense multiplicative in terms of impact. You know,

1136
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:05,120
Speaker 3: we destroyed basically our ability on an international level to

1137
01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:08,320
Speaker 3: be part of anything as it relates to infectious disease issue.

1138
01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:14,280
Speaker 3: We pulledh we destroyed USAID, We destroyed PEP far one

1139
01:04:14,280 --> 01:04:17,640
Speaker 3: of the most important programs that this country has ever

1140
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:21,439
Speaker 3: done in terms of soft diplomacy, you know, bringing the

1141
01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:25,200
Speaker 3: very best of this country to low and middle income countries,

1142
01:04:25,360 --> 01:04:29,520
Speaker 3: where now we see thirty million individuals who are HIV infected,

1143
01:04:29,560 --> 01:04:32,600
Speaker 3: who will likely die in the mediate years ahead because

1144
01:04:32,640 --> 01:04:35,600
Speaker 3: we no longer can get them drug treatment. Okay, pennies

1145
01:04:35,600 --> 01:04:38,720
Speaker 3: a day we were spending on this program. We now

1146
01:04:38,920 --> 01:04:42,320
Speaker 3: no longer have contact with the world to understand, for example,

1147
01:04:42,360 --> 01:04:45,520
Speaker 3: what is really happening with ebola in the Congo, what's

1148
01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:49,760
Speaker 3: going on in Africa, And we have an outbreak right

1149
01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:52,760
Speaker 3: now in DRC that is of real importance, and so

1150
01:04:53,040 --> 01:04:56,600
Speaker 3: we're totally out of the picture internationally. And you know,

1151
01:04:56,720 --> 01:05:00,240
Speaker 3: we controlled a lot of infectious diseases over there or

1152
01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:02,920
Speaker 3: so it didn't even get to our border. Now we

1153
01:05:02,960 --> 01:05:05,280
Speaker 3: have to understand our border is going to keep getting

1154
01:05:05,320 --> 01:05:08,600
Speaker 3: hit day after day with these infectious diseases because we're

1155
01:05:08,640 --> 01:05:10,320
Speaker 3: not stopping them on a global basis.

1156
01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:14,000
Speaker 1: Now the tariffs will help. Okay, sorry, you know, you

1157
01:05:14,040 --> 01:05:16,200
Speaker 1: know you know more about that. I'm trying trying a

1158
01:05:16,240 --> 01:05:18,360
Speaker 1: little bit of trying a little bit of terrorfumor. I

1159
01:05:18,360 --> 01:05:19,120
Speaker 1: guess it didn't.

1160
01:05:18,920 --> 01:05:21,960
Speaker 3: Worry anyway, No, no, I hear it. So first of all,

1161
01:05:22,000 --> 01:05:24,960
Speaker 3: that's the first issue. The second issue is is that,

1162
01:05:25,400 --> 01:05:28,000
Speaker 3: you know, again I mentioned it earlier, Right now there

1163
01:05:28,040 --> 01:05:31,360
Speaker 3: is not one single senior scientist in a leadership position

1164
01:05:31,400 --> 01:05:35,000
Speaker 3: at CDC. Do you know, for the first time in decades,

1165
01:05:35,040 --> 01:05:37,160
Speaker 3: we no longer have anyone in the White House that

1166
01:05:37,240 --> 01:05:41,360
Speaker 3: has any biopreparedness expertise. Nobody in the National Security Council.

1167
01:05:41,720 --> 01:05:45,560
Speaker 3: These used to be major activities where basically they were

1168
01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:48,880
Speaker 3: air traffic control for our federal response we had.

1169
01:05:49,240 --> 01:05:52,400
Speaker 1: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Bush, the

1170
01:05:52,440 --> 01:05:56,720
Speaker 1: Bush team, and the Obama team together and me did

1171
01:05:56,800 --> 01:06:02,280
Speaker 1: a pandemic simulation. Oh, absolutely right, and I did. Did

1172
01:06:02,640 --> 01:06:04,840
Speaker 1: Obama in fact even do that with Team Trump in

1173
01:06:04,880 --> 01:06:08,040
Speaker 1: the first term. I think anyway, there's these they didn't.

1174
01:06:08,440 --> 01:06:11,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think they say that Team Trump in the

1175
01:06:11,520 --> 01:06:16,840
Speaker 3: first administration actually had a very comprehensive and I think

1176
01:06:16,920 --> 01:06:20,680
Speaker 3: really quite credible plan that just has been thrown away.

1177
01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:23,040
Speaker 1: It's got doctor trum. I mean, look, I think not

1178
01:06:23,240 --> 01:06:25,720
Speaker 1: enough credit is given to Wright's previous and Mike Pence.

1179
01:06:26,320 --> 01:06:30,720
Speaker 1: They put built the first Trump administration, and you know,

1180
01:06:30,760 --> 01:06:33,720
Speaker 1: they've gotten a lot of grief from the mainstream world,

1181
01:06:33,720 --> 01:06:37,640
Speaker 1: and I think in hindsight, they did a lot of

1182
01:06:37,760 --> 01:06:40,880
Speaker 1: the They put in a lot of guardrails that held

1183
01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:43,000
Speaker 1: up for a term, that were very important.

1184
01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:45,440
Speaker 3: And you know, Chuck, you know you've worked with me

1185
01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:48,040
Speaker 3: for long enough to know you know, I have served

1186
01:06:48,480 --> 01:06:51,600
Speaker 3: in formal roles with every administration since n You're.

1187
01:06:51,440 --> 01:06:53,400
Speaker 1: About as a political of a person that I know

1188
01:06:53,680 --> 01:06:54,000
Speaker 1: pure you.

1189
01:06:54,480 --> 01:06:57,000
Speaker 3: Know, and you know I served two Republican governors, two

1190
01:06:57,000 --> 01:07:00,240
Speaker 3: Democratic governors, won independent wrestler here in Minnesota, you know,

1191
01:07:00,280 --> 01:07:04,080
Speaker 3: on terms at the state Health Department, and yeah, you know,

1192
01:07:04,120 --> 01:07:06,200
Speaker 3: my job is just to be a member of the

1193
01:07:06,240 --> 01:07:09,000
Speaker 3: public health army to fight these things. So my comments

1194
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:11,760
Speaker 3: are not at all partisans But what we're seeing happen

1195
01:07:11,840 --> 01:07:15,360
Speaker 3: right now is one that is not about partisan. It's

1196
01:07:15,400 --> 01:07:20,040
Speaker 3: about destroying the very infrastructure that got us the benefits

1197
01:07:20,040 --> 01:07:23,000
Speaker 3: that we have so enjoyed in this country. And we're

1198
01:07:23,040 --> 01:07:26,080
Speaker 3: going to see a number of diseases come back that

1199
01:07:26,160 --> 01:07:28,400
Speaker 3: we thought we had gotten rid of, and we're not.

1200
01:07:29,440 --> 01:07:33,240
Speaker 1: I I have this sneaking suspicion that we've got quite

1201
01:07:33,280 --> 01:07:39,320
Speaker 1: a few doctors, family doctors who will not recognize mumps

1202
01:07:39,400 --> 01:07:41,919
Speaker 1: or measles at first because it's been so long since

1203
01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:44,720
Speaker 1: they've been in circulation, that doctors may not be able

1204
01:07:44,720 --> 01:07:48,760
Speaker 1: to diagnose what a child has because of this.

1205
01:07:49,200 --> 01:07:51,640
Speaker 3: Well, you know, just this past week, it's been noted

1206
01:07:51,760 --> 01:07:55,640
Speaker 3: the Shagas disease, a type of parasitic disease transmitted by

1207
01:07:55,640 --> 01:07:58,320
Speaker 3: a bug called the kissing bug because it tends to

1208
01:07:58,520 --> 01:08:00,480
Speaker 3: go to your face when you're sleeping at night and

1209
01:08:00,560 --> 01:08:06,000
Speaker 3: bite you, and it actually causes potentially very severe heart disease.

1210
01:08:06,520 --> 01:08:09,520
Speaker 3: The vast majority of doctors in this country couldn't tell

1211
01:08:09,560 --> 01:08:12,400
Speaker 3: you what Shaga's disease was, let alone diagnose the case.

1212
01:08:13,240 --> 01:08:15,520
Speaker 3: And that's all coming in now from the southern border.

1213
01:08:15,560 --> 01:08:17,519
Speaker 3: We now have at least twelve states in which this

1214
01:08:17,600 --> 01:08:20,880
Speaker 3: bug is commonly found. Fifteen twenty years ago, we would

1215
01:08:20,920 --> 01:08:23,000
Speaker 3: never talked about this. So do I think this is

1216
01:08:23,040 --> 01:08:25,479
Speaker 3: because of the breakdown in public health? Not necessarily, but

1217
01:08:25,520 --> 01:08:30,760
Speaker 3: the challenges that we're seeing globally is growing immensely, and

1218
01:08:30,800 --> 01:08:33,559
Speaker 3: I think so when I talk about the problems of today,

1219
01:08:34,280 --> 01:08:36,760
Speaker 3: there are problems that would have happened anyway, but we're

1220
01:08:36,800 --> 01:08:39,400
Speaker 3: making them a lot worse. And of course we're doing nothing,

1221
01:08:40,000 --> 01:08:42,240
Speaker 3: as we talk about in the book to prepares for tomorrow.

1222
01:08:43,240 --> 01:08:45,720
Speaker 1: Well, and you know, some of the things you talk

1223
01:08:45,760 --> 01:08:50,000
Speaker 1: about in here are sort of some I don't know

1224
01:08:50,000 --> 01:08:51,680
Speaker 1: if I would call them lifestyle chain I guess I

1225
01:08:51,680 --> 01:08:54,360
Speaker 1: would call them architectural changes. Right where it comes to

1226
01:08:54,560 --> 01:08:57,120
Speaker 1: how do you improve airflow and how do you like

1227
01:08:57,439 --> 01:09:05,640
Speaker 1: some preventative things to at least slow the spread of

1228
01:09:05,680 --> 01:09:08,880
Speaker 1: a deadly virus go through some of them, because are

1229
01:09:08,880 --> 01:09:11,559
Speaker 1: these things we could do without the government?

1230
01:09:11,720 --> 01:09:14,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, let me just first of all say that,

1231
01:09:14,240 --> 01:09:17,000
Speaker 3: and you know me well enough. Also, this is not

1232
01:09:17,240 --> 01:09:21,040
Speaker 3: merely trying to gain favor with the moderator here, but you,

1233
01:09:21,360 --> 01:09:23,160
Speaker 3: as I've shared with you in the past, or one

1234
01:09:23,160 --> 01:09:27,080
Speaker 3: of the few media people that really understood what you

1235
01:09:27,120 --> 01:09:30,599
Speaker 3: were asking and what you were talking about. And you know,

1236
01:09:30,640 --> 01:09:33,439
Speaker 3: I can remember one episode on Meet the Press with

1237
01:09:33,520 --> 01:09:35,320
Speaker 3: you where I said I thought the darkest days of

1238
01:09:35,320 --> 01:09:37,960
Speaker 3: the pandemic were still ahead of it. People like Nate

1239
01:09:38,040 --> 01:09:40,559
Speaker 3: Silver and others just nailed me for that. You know,

1240
01:09:40,640 --> 01:09:43,040
Speaker 3: here I was scary again over half the dust and

1241
01:09:43,080 --> 01:09:46,320
Speaker 3: the pandemic occurred after that moment. You know, it wasn't

1242
01:09:46,479 --> 01:09:48,559
Speaker 3: at the end. And I think one of the things

1243
01:09:48,560 --> 01:09:50,880
Speaker 3: that we failed to do was have that kind of

1244
01:09:50,920 --> 01:09:54,360
Speaker 3: creative imagination understand what would this look like for three

1245
01:09:54,439 --> 01:09:57,439
Speaker 3: or more years. I wrote a piece in the Washington

1246
01:09:57,520 --> 01:10:00,240
Speaker 3: Post in early March of twenty twenty s and do

1247
01:10:00,280 --> 01:10:03,639
Speaker 3: not do lockdowns. They won't work. Don't do them. And

1248
01:10:03,760 --> 01:10:06,040
Speaker 3: it was all about the fact that are we prepared

1249
01:10:06,080 --> 01:10:08,000
Speaker 3: to do that for the next two to three years.

1250
01:10:08,240 --> 01:10:10,040
Speaker 3: You know, this is not like a hurricane where it's

1251
01:10:10,040 --> 01:10:12,799
Speaker 3: going to blow through and do incredible damage in eighteen

1252
01:10:12,840 --> 01:10:15,320
Speaker 3: hours and then we go into recovery. We were going

1253
01:10:15,400 --> 01:10:17,760
Speaker 3: to have surge after surge of these cases, and we

1254
01:10:17,800 --> 01:10:20,439
Speaker 3: had to be prepared for that. And so what we proposed,

1255
01:10:20,479 --> 01:10:22,680
Speaker 3: And again just to address the question you asked, what

1256
01:10:22,720 --> 01:10:26,599
Speaker 3: can we do a process like snow days, Because in fact,

1257
01:10:26,640 --> 01:10:28,960
Speaker 3: the one thing that we could do to save lives

1258
01:10:29,439 --> 01:10:32,280
Speaker 3: was to have good medical care. And when your hospitals

1259
01:10:32,280 --> 01:10:35,080
Speaker 3: at one hundred and forty percent capacity, you don't have

1260
01:10:35,240 --> 01:10:38,880
Speaker 3: healthcare period, let alone good healthcare. And so what we

1261
01:10:38,920 --> 01:10:41,599
Speaker 3: should have done is instead of having these lockdowns, which

1262
01:10:41,640 --> 01:10:44,519
Speaker 3: by the way, have been grossly overstated at what they work.

1263
01:10:44,800 --> 01:10:48,519
Speaker 3: We had forty one states that had some information out

1264
01:10:48,560 --> 01:10:53,280
Speaker 3: about minimizing contact for a period of two months basically

1265
01:10:53,320 --> 01:10:55,639
Speaker 3: from end of March till end of June. By June

1266
01:10:55,640 --> 01:10:58,320
Speaker 3: they were all over with a state like Minnesota had

1267
01:10:58,360 --> 01:11:02,280
Speaker 3: a basically stay at home order except for essential work.

1268
01:11:02,280 --> 01:11:05,599
Speaker 1: Well, well, you know what I chucked this up to. Well, Michael,

1269
01:11:05,640 --> 01:11:07,559
Speaker 1: I'll chuck it up to the fact that DC and

1270
01:11:07,600 --> 01:11:11,280
Speaker 1: New York were probably the most small c conservative metro

1271
01:11:11,360 --> 01:11:15,400
Speaker 1: areas in the country. In what was closed and what

1272
01:11:15,520 --> 01:11:18,519
Speaker 1: was open, and because that's where ninety percent of the

1273
01:11:18,600 --> 01:11:21,760
Speaker 1: media people lived. And you know, I think it got

1274
01:11:21,800 --> 01:11:25,960
Speaker 1: an outsize because you're everywhere else. It was sort of

1275
01:11:25,960 --> 01:11:29,639
Speaker 1: what I would call sensible lockdown, right, which was okay,

1276
01:11:29,880 --> 01:11:33,120
Speaker 1: you know, everybody else did it within within sort of

1277
01:11:33,800 --> 01:11:37,200
Speaker 1: common sense. This New York City and Washington, d C.

1278
01:11:37,320 --> 01:11:41,240
Speaker 1: Were just sort of more elevated than other places. And

1279
01:11:41,320 --> 01:11:43,920
Speaker 1: I think it had an impact on the coverage. I

1280
01:11:43,960 --> 01:11:44,920
Speaker 1: just didly right.

1281
01:11:45,000 --> 01:11:47,599
Speaker 3: No, I think you're absolutely right. And what we had

1282
01:11:47,640 --> 01:11:51,680
Speaker 3: proposed was do snow days. What does that mean If

1283
01:11:51,720 --> 01:11:54,559
Speaker 3: we could let every person know every day what our

1284
01:11:54,600 --> 01:11:57,680
Speaker 3: hospital census was for our hospitals and our community, and

1285
01:11:57,720 --> 01:12:00,720
Speaker 3: if we got to ninety ninety five percent pleas for

1286
01:12:00,760 --> 01:12:02,879
Speaker 3: the next two weeks, you know, back.

1287
01:12:02,640 --> 01:12:05,000
Speaker 1: Off, We're not going to work from home. Let's try

1288
01:12:05,000 --> 01:12:06,720
Speaker 1: to work from home. Let's do a few that.

1289
01:12:07,040 --> 01:12:11,479
Speaker 3: Schools maybe closed temporarily, most number back down so that

1290
01:12:11,560 --> 01:12:14,000
Speaker 3: if you do get sick, you can get good medical care,

1291
01:12:14,040 --> 01:12:15,360
Speaker 3: because that's all we can really offer.

1292
01:12:15,640 --> 01:12:18,080
Speaker 1: Well, And the more important thing is is as we learn,

1293
01:12:18,160 --> 01:12:21,160
Speaker 1: I mean we all learned there was COVID seasons plural

1294
01:12:21,280 --> 01:12:25,759
Speaker 1: meaning right, it was it was the summer was peak

1295
01:12:25,800 --> 01:12:29,160
Speaker 1: in the south, the winter was peak in the north. Right,

1296
01:12:29,160 --> 01:12:32,200
Speaker 1: we had all these different so it wasn't a one

1297
01:12:32,920 --> 01:12:37,920
Speaker 1: We've learned that, it wasn't one set of rules to

1298
01:12:38,040 --> 01:12:43,080
Speaker 1: fit all different regions were in different had different capacities

1299
01:12:43,160 --> 01:12:44,760
Speaker 1: and different.

1300
01:12:44,400 --> 01:12:46,920
Speaker 3: Surges, right, and that's what we needed to get across.

1301
01:12:46,920 --> 01:12:48,479
Speaker 3: So we're going to be in this for the long haul,

1302
01:12:48,920 --> 01:12:51,200
Speaker 3: and so we had to find a way. An example

1303
01:12:51,240 --> 01:12:54,559
Speaker 3: of what the lockdown world really was if you did

1304
01:12:54,600 --> 01:12:56,960
Speaker 3: it as we all thought we did, would be what

1305
01:12:57,000 --> 01:13:00,400
Speaker 3: happened in China. They actually had major areas of that

1306
01:13:00,439 --> 01:13:03,400
Speaker 3: were truly locked out, where people literally had food delivered

1307
01:13:03,439 --> 01:13:05,519
Speaker 3: to their homes. They didn't leave their homes for months

1308
01:13:05,560 --> 01:13:09,639
Speaker 3: and months, well without vaccinating that crowd. Finally, the social

1309
01:13:09,680 --> 01:13:14,080
Speaker 3: pressures got so great that they basically relaxed these lockdowns

1310
01:13:14,120 --> 01:13:17,320
Speaker 3: there and guess what, Millions of Chinese died later in

1311
01:13:17,360 --> 01:13:20,240
Speaker 3: the pandemic, not earlier, because once they were not no

1312
01:13:20,320 --> 01:13:23,000
Speaker 3: longer in lockdown, they basically had it. So, as I've

1313
01:13:23,040 --> 01:13:25,400
Speaker 3: said multiple times, whether you died the first six months,

1314
01:13:25,400 --> 01:13:27,559
Speaker 3: the second six months, the third six months, or the

1315
01:13:27,560 --> 01:13:29,360
Speaker 3: four six months, you were pretty much dead at the

1316
01:13:29,439 --> 01:13:32,280
Speaker 3: end of the pandemic, and so our job was to

1317
01:13:32,320 --> 01:13:35,320
Speaker 3: get us through three years of what was going to

1318
01:13:35,360 --> 01:13:38,760
Speaker 3: happen and anticipate that, and we didn't do that, and

1319
01:13:38,760 --> 01:13:41,439
Speaker 3: that by itself would be a lesson for the future

1320
01:13:41,920 --> 01:13:44,840
Speaker 3: of how do we approach this, don't do lockdowns, talk

1321
01:13:44,920 --> 01:13:48,840
Speaker 3: about managing the maximize medical care so it's available.

1322
01:13:49,320 --> 01:13:49,400
Speaker 4: No.

1323
01:13:49,520 --> 01:13:51,519
Speaker 1: I mean, in some ways, COVID came right when the

1324
01:13:51,560 --> 01:13:55,599
Speaker 1: technology gave us the opportunity to actually not shut off

1325
01:13:55,600 --> 01:13:58,160
Speaker 1: our economy at the same time it did.

1326
01:13:58,400 --> 01:14:00,160
Speaker 3: And I think that I gave you that was that

1327
01:14:00,200 --> 01:14:04,320
Speaker 3: was vaccines. You know. I've also wrote about this and

1328
01:14:04,439 --> 01:14:06,760
Speaker 3: also talked about this with my colleagues off it and

1329
01:14:06,840 --> 01:14:10,080
Speaker 3: again was not always necessarily seen as the person we

1330
01:14:10,160 --> 01:14:12,920
Speaker 3: wanted to invite to the party. But I had indicated

1331
01:14:13,000 --> 01:14:16,479
Speaker 3: early one, four ninety six percent protection in those first

1332
01:14:16,520 --> 01:14:18,920
Speaker 3: two months, which was the data that we had from

1333
01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:23,640
Speaker 3: those vaccine trials was remarkable. But we know about coronaviruses.

1334
01:14:23,760 --> 01:14:26,960
Speaker 3: They tend to have waning immunity over time, and we've

1335
01:14:27,000 --> 01:14:31,640
Speaker 3: seen that multiple examples with the cold causing coronaviruses. So

1336
01:14:31,680 --> 01:14:34,360
Speaker 3: I had actually said, how about every month we put

1337
01:14:34,400 --> 01:14:37,280
Speaker 3: a number out for this cohort and we follow up

1338
01:14:37,280 --> 01:14:40,439
Speaker 3: and say it's ninety four percent today, next month is

1339
01:14:40,479 --> 01:14:43,280
Speaker 3: eighty eight percent, the following month is seventy two percent.

1340
01:14:43,720 --> 01:14:46,040
Speaker 3: And you guess what We're going to need boosters, but

1341
01:14:46,120 --> 01:14:48,920
Speaker 3: you'll know the number. We'll tell you. Imagine if we

1342
01:14:48,920 --> 01:14:51,320
Speaker 3: had done that then having people assumed that when they

1343
01:14:51,320 --> 01:14:53,400
Speaker 3: got their two doses, it was done and over with.

1344
01:14:53,920 --> 01:14:56,439
Speaker 1: Now I that for the life of me. You know,

1345
01:14:56,479 --> 01:14:58,920
Speaker 1: I went back and racked my brain on this, and

1346
01:14:59,000 --> 01:15:01,320
Speaker 1: I really guess we got a blame the politicians because

1347
01:15:01,720 --> 01:15:04,280
Speaker 1: I feel like we were all careful in reporting. Hey, look,

1348
01:15:05,600 --> 01:15:08,960
Speaker 1: this vaccine is about preventing death, not preventing the virus,

1349
01:15:09,439 --> 01:15:12,200
Speaker 1: not preventing symptoms. You are going to get a cold,

1350
01:15:12,600 --> 01:15:14,400
Speaker 1: you know, it may it just isn't going to be

1351
01:15:14,400 --> 01:15:16,559
Speaker 1: as harsh and it isn't going to kill you, and

1352
01:15:16,600 --> 01:15:20,599
Speaker 1: this is what it's for. But you know, I mean,

1353
01:15:20,640 --> 01:15:25,160
Speaker 1: this is where the absolutism right of our political conversation

1354
01:15:25,360 --> 01:15:28,080
Speaker 1: created the illusion that the virus was going to make

1355
01:15:28,120 --> 01:15:32,880
Speaker 1: people immune from COVID. And boy, this is where it's

1356
01:15:32,880 --> 01:15:36,720
Speaker 1: obvious our information ecosystem was already broken by the time

1357
01:15:36,760 --> 01:15:41,920
Speaker 1: of twenty twenty because mainstream reporting never was imped saying

1358
01:15:41,920 --> 01:15:45,240
Speaker 1: that or even implying it. Only the politicians a few politicians.

1359
01:15:44,640 --> 01:15:47,800
Speaker 3: Were Yeah, well, and I think that's exactly the point.

1360
01:15:47,840 --> 01:15:50,160
Speaker 3: So again, preparing for the future, how do we prepare

1361
01:15:50,200 --> 01:15:53,280
Speaker 3: the news media as well as the public to understand

1362
01:15:53,320 --> 01:15:56,960
Speaker 3: messaging and what that means. And I think that by itself,

1363
01:15:57,000 --> 01:15:58,800
Speaker 3: if we just hadn't had that, so the things we

1364
01:15:58,920 --> 01:16:03,400
Speaker 3: just talked about, we could actually dramatically improve our vaccine capability,

1365
01:16:03,520 --> 01:16:06,360
Speaker 3: which we can do if we just have dedicated fun

1366
01:16:06,760 --> 01:16:09,479
Speaker 3: instead of one aircraft carrier. And I'm not a defense expert,

1367
01:16:09,520 --> 01:16:12,960
Speaker 3: so I'm not here to beast DoD or doo war doow.

1368
01:16:13,120 --> 01:16:17,519
Speaker 3: I guess you know that alone could get us the

1369
01:16:17,600 --> 01:16:21,400
Speaker 3: technology for this. And again what's happened is not only

1370
01:16:21,439 --> 01:16:24,600
Speaker 3: have we taken the mRNA vaccines off the table, but

1371
01:16:24,680 --> 01:16:29,559
Speaker 3: there's one of mister you know, Kennedy's key people, who

1372
01:16:29,640 --> 01:16:31,639
Speaker 3: is now the head of the NIH who has made

1373
01:16:31,680 --> 01:16:34,240
Speaker 3: a decision to put five hundred million dollars into an

1374
01:16:34,280 --> 01:16:37,719
Speaker 3: influenza vaccine that we've proven over the past four decades

1375
01:16:37,760 --> 01:16:41,200
Speaker 3: doesn't work. Well, you know what's that about? But if

1376
01:16:41,200 --> 01:16:43,519
Speaker 3: we could change that, we could talk about the things

1377
01:16:43,560 --> 01:16:45,400
Speaker 3: that we just did about how do you keep people

1378
01:16:45,400 --> 01:16:47,880
Speaker 3: from staying out of the hospital, you know, how do

1379
01:16:47,960 --> 01:16:52,280
Speaker 3: we convey messaging in a way that isn't about lockdowns

1380
01:16:52,360 --> 01:16:54,800
Speaker 3: or not lockdowns? We could I think comes through this

1381
01:16:54,880 --> 01:16:56,840
Speaker 3: in a very different way.

1382
01:16:57,200 --> 01:17:02,360
Speaker 1: Right there's almost like a very sort of a dry

1383
01:17:02,400 --> 01:17:04,200
Speaker 1: way of doing this, almost like a you know, like

1384
01:17:04,240 --> 01:17:06,639
Speaker 1: you would if this were a department in the military. Okay,

1385
01:17:07,000 --> 01:17:09,320
Speaker 1: this is how we will prepare for this battle. And

1386
01:17:09,360 --> 01:17:11,400
Speaker 1: we're going to have data on this, and we'll have

1387
01:17:11,479 --> 01:17:13,800
Speaker 1: data on this, and we're going to have our hospitalization

1388
01:17:13,920 --> 01:17:17,840
Speaker 1: data trigger when we do locked u schools, shutdowns, and

1389
01:17:17,880 --> 01:17:20,760
Speaker 1: I mean, all that makes that's that's perfectly logical what

1390
01:17:21,240 --> 01:17:24,719
Speaker 1: you're laying out here and exactly what people do expect

1391
01:17:24,720 --> 01:17:28,760
Speaker 1: government to be capable of. And Kennedy is just you

1392
01:17:28,800 --> 01:17:31,320
Speaker 1: know's yeah, he's the virus right now.

1393
01:17:31,640 --> 01:17:33,559
Speaker 3: In fact, let me just add a piece to that,

1394
01:17:33,600 --> 01:17:36,280
Speaker 3: because I think you and I actually discussed this on

1395
01:17:36,320 --> 01:17:40,679
Speaker 3: the air several years ago. Was an issue of school kids.

1396
01:17:41,120 --> 01:17:43,760
Speaker 3: You know, early on, there was this conclusion that this

1397
01:17:43,920 --> 01:17:47,040
Speaker 3: virus was really not that damaging to kids. You know,

1398
01:17:47,240 --> 01:17:49,600
Speaker 3: they weren't seeing the same number of desper you know,

1399
01:17:49,640 --> 01:17:52,160
Speaker 3: a number of people infected et cetera. And in the

1400
01:17:52,200 --> 01:17:54,479
Speaker 3: first year of the pandemic, one hundred and ninety nine

1401
01:17:54,560 --> 01:17:57,479
Speaker 3: kids in this country died from COVID, And there were

1402
01:17:57,479 --> 01:18:00,120
Speaker 3: a number of studies that came out saying, see that

1403
01:18:00,240 --> 01:18:02,479
Speaker 3: this is not a big risk compared to what we're seeing.

1404
01:18:02,920 --> 01:18:06,160
Speaker 3: But then when the new variants, the delta and omicron

1405
01:18:06,240 --> 01:18:09,080
Speaker 3: variants showed up, that changed. And in fact, there were

1406
01:18:09,120 --> 01:18:11,880
Speaker 3: six hundred and twelve desks the second year, and they

1407
01:18:11,880 --> 01:18:15,360
Speaker 3: were almost eight hundred deaks the third year. Eighty seven

1408
01:18:15,400 --> 01:18:17,640
Speaker 3: percent of the desks and kids occurred in year two

1409
01:18:17,720 --> 01:18:21,360
Speaker 3: and three. Yet we were operating by the rules of

1410
01:18:21,400 --> 01:18:24,920
Speaker 3: what was year one, and we to get that message

1411
01:18:24,960 --> 01:18:26,479
Speaker 3: out to say, wait a minute, we got to look

1412
01:18:26,479 --> 01:18:29,559
Speaker 3: at this little carefully. Now. There was a wonderful study

1413
01:18:30,040 --> 01:18:34,160
Speaker 3: done in the Boston area basically looking at kids. In

1414
01:18:34,200 --> 01:18:37,600
Speaker 3: the most comprehensive study today, about eighty percent of the

1415
01:18:37,640 --> 01:18:41,639
Speaker 3: transmission in year two and three in households occurred because

1416
01:18:41,640 --> 01:18:44,720
Speaker 3: of a child bringing the virus home from school, and

1417
01:18:44,800 --> 01:18:46,800
Speaker 3: we didn't adjust to that. That's the other thing we

1418
01:18:46,880 --> 01:18:49,599
Speaker 3: have to do is have situational awareness to say this

1419
01:18:49,680 --> 01:18:52,280
Speaker 3: is what it was. Then didn't tell you something wrong,

1420
01:18:52,479 --> 01:18:53,839
Speaker 3: But now look what's happened.

1421
01:18:54,280 --> 01:18:56,840
Speaker 1: You know, we treat science and this is a I

1422
01:18:56,880 --> 01:19:00,000
Speaker 1: guess I would put this in the larger political community,

1423
01:19:00,160 --> 01:19:01,320
Speaker 1: and I throw the press in there.

1424
01:19:01,840 --> 01:19:02,160
Speaker 3: In this.

1425
01:19:03,160 --> 01:19:07,000
Speaker 1: What you're describing is we treat science like it's a

1426
01:19:07,040 --> 01:19:10,599
Speaker 1: politician who makes who declares a position on an issue,

1427
01:19:11,120 --> 01:19:13,920
Speaker 1: and then when they try to change their position, we

1428
01:19:13,960 --> 01:19:17,240
Speaker 1: call them a flip flopper. Well, in the world of science, right,

1429
01:19:17,400 --> 01:19:20,360
Speaker 1: what the data says on year one is not necessarily

1430
01:19:20,360 --> 01:19:22,800
Speaker 1: going to be the data because you know, nothing is

1431
01:19:23,800 --> 01:19:26,320
Speaker 1: nothing is permanent in the world of science, right, there's

1432
01:19:26,320 --> 01:19:32,360
Speaker 1: always and our lizard brains, right, our political lizard brain

1433
01:19:32,920 --> 01:19:37,160
Speaker 1: can't seem to convey that it's normal for the science

1434
01:19:37,200 --> 01:19:40,400
Speaker 1: to change. It's not unusual for the science to change,

1435
01:19:40,720 --> 01:19:43,720
Speaker 1: and that seemed to be a huge barrier in conveying

1436
01:19:43,760 --> 01:19:44,719
Speaker 1: information to the post.

1437
01:19:44,760 --> 01:19:46,639
Speaker 3: You know, Chuck, the one thing I try to instill

1438
01:19:46,640 --> 01:19:50,799
Speaker 3: in all my graduate students, science is not truth. Science

1439
01:19:50,920 --> 01:19:53,559
Speaker 3: is the pursuit of truth, and that means you need

1440
01:19:53,600 --> 01:19:56,559
Speaker 3: to be humble. You need to be able to say, well,

1441
01:19:56,600 --> 01:19:59,559
Speaker 3: look what we learned, Now, look how that changes exactly

1442
01:19:59,600 --> 01:20:02,320
Speaker 3: what you're s We need to have much a much

1443
01:20:02,520 --> 01:20:06,240
Speaker 3: more open culture to that idea that science is the

1444
01:20:06,280 --> 01:20:07,320
Speaker 3: pursuit of it.

1445
01:20:08,000 --> 01:20:10,080
Speaker 1: So, for instance, you know, all of a sudden, now

1446
01:20:11,200 --> 01:20:14,559
Speaker 1: you can't help I can't help my brain behaving in

1447
01:20:14,600 --> 01:20:18,160
Speaker 1: the following way. Bobby Kennedy Junior is going to come

1448
01:20:18,200 --> 01:20:22,040
Speaker 1: out and say that tailand it might be a cause

1449
01:20:22,080 --> 01:20:25,320
Speaker 1: of autism, And I say might, right, and it is

1450
01:20:25,360 --> 01:20:28,120
Speaker 1: going to be. I don't want to say it's junk

1451
01:20:28,160 --> 01:20:31,000
Speaker 1: science yet. But at the same time, you know, it

1452
01:20:31,040 --> 01:20:33,960
Speaker 1: doesn't feel like there's a there's enough to be as

1453
01:20:34,000 --> 01:20:36,600
Speaker 1: declarative as that they might be on this. At the

1454
01:20:36,640 --> 01:20:41,200
Speaker 1: same time, you know, I'm well aware that things we

1455
01:20:41,240 --> 01:20:43,160
Speaker 1: thought that were healthy will find out one day that

1456
01:20:43,200 --> 01:20:47,120
Speaker 1: they're not right. So how would you be conveying this

1457
01:20:47,360 --> 01:20:50,760
Speaker 1: set of minifern situation in a more responsible way?

1458
01:20:51,240 --> 01:20:53,720
Speaker 3: Well, the first problem we have is that people have

1459
01:20:53,840 --> 01:20:57,960
Speaker 3: a horrible time understanding risk benefit. Virtually nothing in this

1460
01:20:58,040 --> 01:21:00,760
Speaker 3: world is risk free and often been.

1461
01:21:00,840 --> 01:21:03,760
Speaker 1: I love playing the risk game. You know, somebody says

1462
01:21:03,800 --> 01:21:05,280
Speaker 1: ninety five percent. I said, would you get on an

1463
01:21:05,320 --> 01:21:08,960
Speaker 1: airplane that I had a ninety five percent chance of landing?

1464
01:21:09,360 --> 01:21:09,559
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1465
01:21:09,600 --> 01:21:11,439
Speaker 1: And you start to think about it, all right, how

1466
01:21:11,439 --> 01:21:14,840
Speaker 1: about ninety percent and then it's like, no intent, I

1467
01:21:14,840 --> 01:21:17,479
Speaker 1: wouldn't know it right, like you know, people like you know,

1468
01:21:17,640 --> 01:21:19,640
Speaker 1: it all depends on what the risk is. I'm a

1469
01:21:19,640 --> 01:21:21,720
Speaker 1: big fan of playing that game because it's a way

1470
01:21:21,720 --> 01:21:24,920
Speaker 1: of teaching people what does it ninety five percent really mean?

1471
01:21:25,040 --> 01:21:27,639
Speaker 3: Absolutely well, if you look at a set of menifit

1472
01:21:27,880 --> 01:21:30,599
Speaker 3: actually one of the other real challenges in pregnant women

1473
01:21:31,040 --> 01:21:33,839
Speaker 3: is actually fevers. And you know, I'm not an expert

1474
01:21:33,840 --> 01:21:36,800
Speaker 3: as an obg U I n on this issue, but uh,

1475
01:21:37,080 --> 01:21:39,599
Speaker 3: a set of minifit has been a very important part

1476
01:21:39,920 --> 01:21:44,640
Speaker 3: of reducing fevers. And the issue that that raises with betime.

1477
01:21:44,240 --> 01:21:47,920
Speaker 1: Why I've had migraines and during the pregnancies, she couldn't

1478
01:21:47,960 --> 01:21:49,439
Speaker 1: take her migraine medicine, so it.

1479
01:21:49,320 --> 01:21:50,479
Speaker 3: Was just time on them.

1480
01:21:50,760 --> 01:21:52,639
Speaker 1: I mean, that was all she was allowed to take

1481
01:21:53,360 --> 01:21:55,920
Speaker 1: and it only kind of worked.

1482
01:21:56,080 --> 01:21:58,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, And so let's just start out with the fact

1483
01:21:58,320 --> 01:22:00,799
Speaker 3: that we have to understand risk benef with the second

1484
01:22:00,800 --> 01:22:03,120
Speaker 3: of all, as you pointed out, there's still a lot

1485
01:22:03,160 --> 01:22:06,760
Speaker 3: of questions about just what the role of tail and

1486
01:22:06,840 --> 01:22:09,040
Speaker 3: all might be and how much does it account for.

1487
01:22:09,479 --> 01:22:11,519
Speaker 3: Is it a few percent of all the cases that

1488
01:22:11,600 --> 01:22:15,000
Speaker 3: occur and realizing The data we have to date is

1489
01:22:15,160 --> 01:22:17,439
Speaker 3: very incomplete, and we're going to learn a lot more.

1490
01:22:17,600 --> 01:22:20,240
Speaker 3: You know how many times I say to myself every day, Boy,

1491
01:22:20,280 --> 01:22:22,439
Speaker 3: I wish I know today what I'm going to know

1492
01:22:22,560 --> 01:22:24,800
Speaker 3: six months from now. You know, wouldn't I be a

1493
01:22:24,840 --> 01:22:25,599
Speaker 3: lot better off?

1494
01:22:25,920 --> 01:22:27,120
Speaker 1: Be a great gambler? Yeah?

1495
01:22:27,160 --> 01:22:29,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you know, once we once we better

1496
01:22:29,560 --> 01:22:32,280
Speaker 3: understand this risk of see to benefit my own personal

1497
01:22:32,360 --> 01:22:36,120
Speaker 3: belief is it'll account for a very very small part

1498
01:22:36,320 --> 01:22:39,040
Speaker 3: of the autism picture. In the meantime, we're going to

1499
01:22:39,080 --> 01:22:42,920
Speaker 3: throw out a very important medication from a fever standpoint

1500
01:22:43,320 --> 01:22:45,680
Speaker 3: that in pregnancy is in itself a challenge.

1501
01:22:45,920 --> 01:22:48,320
Speaker 1: Well, half the population is going to accept the premise here.

1502
01:22:48,960 --> 01:22:51,960
Speaker 3: They do, they do, they absolutely do. Although I will

1503
01:22:51,960 --> 01:22:54,479
Speaker 3: have to say, when red wine was in vogue, everybody

1504
01:22:54,560 --> 01:22:56,759
Speaker 3: went with it. When then it wasn't in vogue health wise,

1505
01:22:56,880 --> 01:22:59,679
Speaker 3: I'm not sure everybody stopped. That would make count.

1506
01:23:00,080 --> 01:23:02,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true, that's true. It really when it fits

1507
01:23:02,439 --> 01:23:05,360
Speaker 1: your lifestyle, you're, oh, yeah, red wine healthy for you?

1508
01:23:06,360 --> 01:23:09,360
Speaker 1: Really really, you know, it's just sort of less unhealthy

1509
01:23:09,400 --> 01:23:11,360
Speaker 1: than the other stuff. Is probably the better way it

1510
01:23:11,360 --> 01:23:12,960
Speaker 1: should have been described.

1511
01:23:12,479 --> 01:23:12,920
Speaker 3: That's right.

1512
01:23:13,400 --> 01:23:18,240
Speaker 1: So when somebody who's listening to us here is going

1513
01:23:18,320 --> 01:23:21,360
Speaker 1: to hear this a set of miniferin. I mean, is

1514
01:23:21,360 --> 01:23:24,080
Speaker 1: it going to impact how your view of a seat

1515
01:23:24,080 --> 01:23:24,599
Speaker 1: of miniference?

1516
01:23:25,200 --> 01:23:27,200
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I first of all will tell you

1517
01:23:27,240 --> 01:23:29,000
Speaker 3: that one of the important things is you don't want

1518
01:23:29,000 --> 01:23:32,000
Speaker 3: to have armshare quarterbacks like me who do enough to

1519
01:23:32,040 --> 01:23:34,200
Speaker 3: be dangerous to be comment on this. I've already been

1520
01:23:34,280 --> 01:23:37,360
Speaker 3: contacted this morning by a number of news outlets asking

1521
01:23:37,439 --> 01:23:39,479
Speaker 3: if I'll be on today to comment on this. My

1522
01:23:39,600 --> 01:23:42,960
Speaker 3: answer is I don't know enough, and therefore I'm not

1523
01:23:43,120 --> 01:23:45,479
Speaker 3: the voice you want to have. These are the people

1524
01:23:45,600 --> 01:23:49,160
Speaker 3: that from the obgyn world that can really give you

1525
01:23:49,280 --> 01:23:51,800
Speaker 3: better information. So I'm going to beg off this one

1526
01:23:52,120 --> 01:23:54,400
Speaker 3: and say that I know enough here to say that

1527
01:23:54,560 --> 01:23:57,000
Speaker 3: it's not a slam dunk, but at the same time

1528
01:23:57,000 --> 01:23:58,880
Speaker 3: as one we have to look at. But like you,

1529
01:23:59,000 --> 01:24:02,280
Speaker 3: I worry that will be misinterpreted and that we're going

1530
01:24:02,360 --> 01:24:05,479
Speaker 3: to see damage occur because people aren't taken to see

1531
01:24:05,439 --> 01:24:07,160
Speaker 3: it of Menaphine when they should look.

1532
01:24:07,200 --> 01:24:10,320
Speaker 1: The biggest fear I've had about this entire experiment that

1533
01:24:10,360 --> 01:24:13,000
Speaker 1: we're on right now in this in this current political environment,

1534
01:24:13,080 --> 01:24:16,640
Speaker 1: is that we already had half the country sort of

1535
01:24:17,120 --> 01:24:22,080
Speaker 1: anti expert okay, and now they took over the expertise lane,

1536
01:24:22,160 --> 01:24:23,439
Speaker 1: and now we're gonna have the other half of the

1537
01:24:23,439 --> 01:24:27,000
Speaker 1: country no longer believe experts. And you know, as you

1538
01:24:27,040 --> 01:24:29,680
Speaker 1: know it. I have a friend of mine who used

1539
01:24:29,720 --> 01:24:30,960
Speaker 1: to tell this joke. He goes, you know, if the

1540
01:24:31,080 --> 01:24:35,559
Speaker 1: if the beer companies behaved like politicians, you know, Miller

1541
01:24:35,640 --> 01:24:38,080
Speaker 1: Lte says, it's less feeling. But what they don't tell

1542
01:24:38,120 --> 01:24:40,000
Speaker 1: you is that this is in there, he says. Eventually,

1543
01:24:40,280 --> 01:24:42,200
Speaker 1: it's not that people would stop drinking Miller Light or

1544
01:24:42,200 --> 01:24:45,439
Speaker 1: stop drinking Bud Light. They just stop drinking beer. And

1545
01:24:45,479 --> 01:24:48,760
Speaker 1: I think the fear we have here is that everybody's

1546
01:24:48,800 --> 01:24:55,439
Speaker 1: just gonna like not trust anything they hear, which is honestly,

1547
01:24:55,479 --> 01:24:58,000
Speaker 1: I understand if they would come to that conclusion given

1548
01:24:58,000 --> 01:24:59,160
Speaker 1: the situation we're all living in.

1549
01:25:00,000 --> 01:25:01,880
Speaker 3: I think you're right. And I think that's the challenge

1550
01:25:01,920 --> 01:25:03,360
Speaker 3: we have trying to get ready for the big one,

1551
01:25:03,400 --> 01:25:05,080
Speaker 3: because the first one is nobody wants to believe it

1552
01:25:05,120 --> 01:25:09,120
Speaker 3: can happen. It won't happen. Nobody wanted. In twenty and seventeen,

1553
01:25:09,160 --> 01:25:12,320
Speaker 3: when I published Deadliest Enemies and talked about what I

1554
01:25:12,320 --> 01:25:14,679
Speaker 3: had three chapters in that book that pretty much played

1555
01:25:14,720 --> 01:25:17,880
Speaker 3: out as the pandemic did, except I used an windsor virus.

1556
01:25:18,240 --> 01:25:20,160
Speaker 3: And I think that that's the challenge is how do

1557
01:25:20,240 --> 01:25:22,439
Speaker 3: you get people to understand this is what you can

1558
01:25:22,479 --> 01:25:26,840
Speaker 3: do about the future now. And I worry that that's

1559
01:25:26,880 --> 01:25:29,639
Speaker 3: going to get buried in well, everything's screwed up mess,

1560
01:25:29,920 --> 01:25:30,679
Speaker 3: let's do nothing.

1561
01:25:45,040 --> 01:25:47,840
Speaker 1: So obviously the big thing you'd be standing up is

1562
01:25:47,880 --> 01:25:52,280
Speaker 1: sort of this preventative virus and vaccine research, right, which

1563
01:25:52,320 --> 01:25:54,800
Speaker 1: is what we had going at Nah, it was an

1564
01:25:54,840 --> 01:25:57,000
Speaker 1: amazing program. Now it's gone.

1565
01:25:57,600 --> 01:26:02,880
Speaker 3: It's absolutely critical that we globally do that. I mean,

1566
01:26:03,080 --> 01:26:04,720
Speaker 3: as I said, I'm like, we don't do it?

1567
01:26:04,760 --> 01:26:06,320
Speaker 1: Who is who is doing what?

1568
01:26:06,560 --> 01:26:09,160
Speaker 3: The problems? No, this is one of the problems. Is

1569
01:26:09,200 --> 01:26:11,880
Speaker 3: the US is the tail that wags the dog. In fact,

1570
01:26:11,920 --> 01:26:13,599
Speaker 3: i'd say the tail that wegs the elephant.

1571
01:26:13,680 --> 01:26:16,120
Speaker 1: I had an EU ambassador say this. He goes, if

1572
01:26:16,120 --> 01:26:20,000
Speaker 1: I could replicate one thing America does, he says, it

1573
01:26:20,040 --> 01:26:21,400
Speaker 1: would be Barta.

1574
01:26:22,560 --> 01:26:24,360
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think that's absolutely right.

1575
01:26:24,479 --> 01:26:24,880
Speaker 1: That's it.

1576
01:26:25,160 --> 01:26:28,720
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, and so from that perspective, I'm very concerned

1577
01:26:28,760 --> 01:26:31,800
Speaker 3: that we're going to see on a global basis companies

1578
01:26:32,200 --> 01:26:35,040
Speaker 3: countries not willing to get an m RNA technology because

1579
01:26:35,040 --> 01:26:37,080
Speaker 3: if the US isn't leading the way on that, or

1580
01:26:37,120 --> 01:26:40,880
Speaker 3: they're anti mRNA vaccine technology, there's no market in it

1581
01:26:40,960 --> 01:26:43,960
Speaker 3: for them. And so we're already seeing companies on a

1582
01:26:43,960 --> 01:26:46,760
Speaker 3: global basis pull out of mRNA research. And as you

1583
01:26:46,920 --> 01:26:50,400
Speaker 3: noted earlier, this is not just about covid or influenza.

1584
01:26:50,600 --> 01:26:53,040
Speaker 3: This is about a whole number of other infectious diseases

1585
01:26:53,040 --> 01:26:54,080
Speaker 3: the one I just mentioned.

1586
01:26:54,200 --> 01:26:59,400
Speaker 5: Should you imagine a vaccine for cancer and cancers? And

1587
01:26:59,439 --> 01:27:04,400
Speaker 5: that's right, and those vaccines are both prevention, but more importantly,

1588
01:27:04,400 --> 01:27:07,240
Speaker 5: they're also treatment issues. I mean, we can actually use

1589
01:27:07,280 --> 01:27:11,040
Speaker 5: these vaccines for very effective treatment. And again, you know,

1590
01:27:11,320 --> 01:27:15,000
Speaker 5: it was a situation where the statements that were made

1591
01:27:15,000 --> 01:27:16,280
Speaker 5: at the ACIP.

1592
01:27:15,920 --> 01:27:19,960
Speaker 3: Medium last week they were so off base, they had

1593
01:27:20,000 --> 01:27:23,160
Speaker 3: no basis in science whatsoever. But they were stating, with

1594
01:27:23,200 --> 01:27:26,200
Speaker 3: this authority voice, look at how bad these vaccines are,

1595
01:27:26,240 --> 01:27:28,280
Speaker 3: Look what they do to you, you know, And that's

1596
01:27:28,400 --> 01:27:29,519
Speaker 3: that's the challenge we have.

1597
01:27:30,960 --> 01:27:34,400
Speaker 1: So so that gets starved, all right, So if we can't,

1598
01:27:34,640 --> 01:27:40,280
Speaker 1: what are what would besides standing up the mRNA research,

1599
01:27:40,920 --> 01:27:44,800
Speaker 1: what else would should we be doing in preparation for

1600
01:27:44,880 --> 01:27:47,559
Speaker 1: the big one. I mean, obviously we learned a lot

1601
01:27:47,600 --> 01:27:51,360
Speaker 1: about PPE and what we had too much outsourced in

1602
01:27:51,400 --> 01:27:54,719
Speaker 1: our reliance in other countries that I think we're getting

1603
01:27:55,439 --> 01:27:58,320
Speaker 1: at a minimum that's going to get. That's probably something

1604
01:27:58,360 --> 01:28:00,880
Speaker 1: at least in the short term that even this administration

1605
01:28:00,960 --> 01:28:02,479
Speaker 1: wants to get right right.

1606
01:28:02,520 --> 01:28:04,600
Speaker 3: But unfortunately, I'll tell you right now that we're not

1607
01:28:04,640 --> 01:28:07,400
Speaker 3: any better off with manufacturing capacity or what to do.

1608
01:28:07,600 --> 01:28:09,600
Speaker 3: But let me back up. In the book we cover this,

1609
01:28:10,640 --> 01:28:13,719
Speaker 3: we saw so much miss and disinformation, and Public Health

1610
01:28:13,840 --> 01:28:16,640
Speaker 3: was really in part to blame for this because we

1611
01:28:16,920 --> 01:28:20,400
Speaker 3: basically kept saying a group of us that it's not airborne,

1612
01:28:20,479 --> 01:28:23,880
Speaker 3: meaning these very fine mist like particles that fill the

1613
01:28:24,080 --> 01:28:27,840
Speaker 3: entire room, rather than the droplets, those things that basically

1614
01:28:27,960 --> 01:28:29,680
Speaker 3: as you if you've ever been in the front row

1615
01:28:29,720 --> 01:28:32,200
Speaker 3: of a player or a concert, you see those droplets

1616
01:28:32,200 --> 01:28:36,000
Speaker 3: coming out across the stage. Okay, those are the ones

1617
01:28:36,040 --> 01:28:38,720
Speaker 3: that people said were causing this. That's the kind of

1618
01:28:38,800 --> 01:28:42,440
Speaker 3: thing that hygiene, theater all was all about. The plexiglass

1619
01:28:42,439 --> 01:28:45,720
Speaker 3: and all of that made no difference whatsoever. Bandan has

1620
01:28:45,760 --> 01:28:49,600
Speaker 3: made no difference. Surgical you needed to have what we

1621
01:28:49,680 --> 01:28:52,800
Speaker 3: call an n ninety five respirator. Why did that work?

1622
01:28:53,120 --> 01:28:55,439
Speaker 3: Because first of all, it was very tight face fit.

1623
01:28:55,960 --> 01:28:58,360
Speaker 3: You know how many times you ever use swim goggles

1624
01:28:58,360 --> 01:29:00,840
Speaker 3: that leaked through the glass? They did lead through the side.

1625
01:29:01,160 --> 01:29:04,320
Speaker 3: The second thing, though, is it wasn't just any material

1626
01:29:04,439 --> 01:29:07,160
Speaker 3: in front of your face, because something that's airtight around

1627
01:29:07,160 --> 01:29:09,880
Speaker 3: your face, you'd suffocate quickly if you couldn't move air

1628
01:29:09,920 --> 01:29:12,960
Speaker 3: back and forth. And so this material had an electronic

1629
01:29:13,120 --> 01:29:17,599
Speaker 3: electrostatic charge to it that basically trapped the virus coming through,

1630
01:29:17,600 --> 01:29:20,360
Speaker 3: but let air come through well. But they still were

1631
01:29:20,520 --> 01:29:23,800
Speaker 3: very uncomfortable for many people I have and we talked

1632
01:29:23,840 --> 01:29:26,760
Speaker 3: about this in the book. We need a major project

1633
01:29:27,000 --> 01:29:31,720
Speaker 3: to develop a consumer friendly, reusable in ninety five rospirator

1634
01:29:31,960 --> 01:29:35,360
Speaker 3: that people would wear and actually find it to be comfortable,

1635
01:29:35,479 --> 01:29:38,320
Speaker 3: and one that they would wear into public. You know,

1636
01:29:38,360 --> 01:29:40,479
Speaker 3: if you could do that, you could stop a lot

1637
01:29:40,520 --> 01:29:42,920
Speaker 3: of transmission for people that had to be in the

1638
01:29:42,960 --> 01:29:46,080
Speaker 3: public study. You know, it was hard to watch so

1639
01:29:46,160 --> 01:29:49,679
Speaker 3: many families in this country where grandpa and grandma, mom

1640
01:29:49,720 --> 01:29:53,000
Speaker 3: and dad, the kids all lived in the same apartment.

1641
01:29:53,479 --> 01:29:56,120
Speaker 3: You know, you couldn't you couldn't isolate these people from

1642
01:29:56,160 --> 01:29:58,160
Speaker 3: each other. So if the kid brought a virus home

1643
01:29:58,200 --> 01:30:01,679
Speaker 3: from school, Grandpa, Grandma could have died from it. That's

1644
01:30:01,720 --> 01:30:05,040
Speaker 3: where this kind of increased respiratory protection could make just

1645
01:30:05,080 --> 01:30:08,120
Speaker 3: a huge difference. But we're doing very little to achieve

1646
01:30:08,160 --> 01:30:08,800
Speaker 3: that right now.

1647
01:30:10,920 --> 01:30:16,400
Speaker 1: What about in the public setting, in building codes and

1648
01:30:16,439 --> 01:30:18,599
Speaker 1: things like this, Are there things we should be doing

1649
01:30:18,640 --> 01:30:25,760
Speaker 1: differently in order to essentially be more to help us

1650
01:30:26,200 --> 01:30:29,480
Speaker 1: deal with with a with a air borne virus.

1651
01:30:29,640 --> 01:30:32,960
Speaker 3: Well, first of all, let me just say that we

1652
01:30:33,000 --> 01:30:35,000
Speaker 3: already have an example of what can be done with

1653
01:30:35,080 --> 01:30:38,599
Speaker 3: building codes, and look at the earthquake prone areas, look

1654
01:30:38,600 --> 01:30:41,839
Speaker 3: at the hurricane prone areas. You know we actually tailor

1655
01:30:42,840 --> 01:30:46,920
Speaker 3: building codes to meet those challenges. Well, we never really

1656
01:30:46,960 --> 01:30:49,880
Speaker 3: thought about air I mean, we all talk about safe

1657
01:30:49,920 --> 01:30:52,479
Speaker 3: water supplies. You know, we want to make sure our

1658
01:30:52,520 --> 01:30:54,519
Speaker 3: food is safe. But when's the last time you heard

1659
01:30:54,520 --> 01:30:58,519
Speaker 3: somebody say, ho safe is our air? And so one

1660
01:30:58,560 --> 01:30:59,880
Speaker 3: of the things we need to do is just on

1661
01:31:00,040 --> 01:31:03,720
Speaker 3: understand that that is also a very important way for

1662
01:31:03,880 --> 01:31:07,559
Speaker 3: virus to be transmitted. You'll appreciate this one I use

1663
01:31:07,600 --> 01:31:10,960
Speaker 3: as an example of what airborne viruses are like in

1664
01:31:12,160 --> 01:31:14,720
Speaker 3: a previous life at the State Health Department. Here as

1665
01:31:14,720 --> 01:31:18,640
Speaker 3: a state of theologist I led an investigation of measles

1666
01:31:18,760 --> 01:31:22,040
Speaker 3: that occurred in our state associated with the Special Olympics

1667
01:31:22,080 --> 01:31:25,680
Speaker 3: and international Special Olympics were here and on opening night

1668
01:31:25,760 --> 01:31:29,360
Speaker 3: session in the Hubert Helphrey Metrodome, sixty five thousand people

1669
01:31:29,360 --> 01:31:32,599
Speaker 3: in the stands. We had the entire infield and outfield

1670
01:31:32,640 --> 01:31:35,559
Speaker 3: field filled with all of the players from the different

1671
01:31:35,600 --> 01:31:39,040
Speaker 3: countries and their coaches, et cetera. Well, the a's by

1672
01:31:39,080 --> 01:31:42,439
Speaker 3: alphabet country were on right at home plate and that

1673
01:31:42,520 --> 01:31:45,080
Speaker 3: was Argentina, and we had a young boy who was

1674
01:31:45,280 --> 01:31:49,439
Speaker 3: just incubating measles, was infectious and the outbreak resulted in

1675
01:31:49,479 --> 01:31:53,280
Speaker 3: the entire participant group. But we had many people in

1676
01:31:53,280 --> 01:31:58,000
Speaker 3: that sixty five thousand plus visitors that night who had

1677
01:31:58,000 --> 01:32:01,200
Speaker 3: no other contact with the Special Olympics. They also had

1678
01:32:01,200 --> 01:32:04,160
Speaker 3: an outbreak of measles. Nobody knew each other, but it

1679
01:32:04,200 --> 01:32:06,400
Speaker 3: turned out they all sat in the same section in

1680
01:32:06,439 --> 01:32:09,799
Speaker 3: the far far right field upper bleachers where Mark McGuire

1681
01:32:09,800 --> 01:32:11,840
Speaker 3: at the time couldn't hit a home run in steroids

1682
01:32:12,000 --> 01:32:14,559
Speaker 3: four hundred and twenty feet away, and it turned out

1683
01:32:14,560 --> 01:32:17,599
Speaker 3: that the air came out from behind home plate, across

1684
01:32:17,680 --> 01:32:20,479
Speaker 3: home plate and bounced and literally went all the way

1685
01:32:20,560 --> 01:32:24,040
Speaker 3: up to that right field out take up there, and

1686
01:32:24,240 --> 01:32:26,679
Speaker 3: everyone who was in that section who had not previously

1687
01:32:26,720 --> 01:32:30,200
Speaker 3: had measles got measles that night from that exposure. Now

1688
01:32:30,280 --> 01:32:34,800
Speaker 3: that's how dynamic airborne transmission is. So how do we

1689
01:32:34,840 --> 01:32:36,880
Speaker 3: improve ventilation there? And that's where we have to do

1690
01:32:36,920 --> 01:32:39,519
Speaker 3: a lot of work. We don't have easy answers. It's

1691
01:32:39,560 --> 01:32:43,040
Speaker 3: not simple just turn on a fan. But this again

1692
01:32:43,080 --> 01:32:46,479
Speaker 3: should be a very basic research area that we're doing

1693
01:32:46,560 --> 01:32:47,200
Speaker 3: very little with.

1694
01:32:48,600 --> 01:32:51,800
Speaker 1: It's funny you used the measles example there, since it

1695
01:32:52,720 --> 01:32:56,080
Speaker 1: was something you were involved with. I have an older

1696
01:32:56,120 --> 01:33:00,280
Speaker 1: relative who's wondering, who's wondered aloud if measles is going

1697
01:33:00,320 --> 01:33:04,000
Speaker 1: to be back in circulation? Are there boosters that older

1698
01:33:04,080 --> 01:33:09,960
Speaker 1: folks probably never thought they needed but may need, you know,

1699
01:33:10,000 --> 01:33:15,200
Speaker 1: are we gonna yeah, you know what kind of how concerned?

1700
01:33:15,200 --> 01:33:17,599
Speaker 1: What should we be for our population over the age

1701
01:33:17,640 --> 01:33:22,559
Speaker 1: of fifty, for instance, when it comes to a new

1702
01:33:22,560 --> 01:33:23,639
Speaker 1: outbreak of measles?

1703
01:33:23,920 --> 01:33:26,760
Speaker 3: Well, in keeping with my science is not truth, it

1704
01:33:26,920 --> 01:33:29,360
Speaker 3: is pursuit of truth. I'll tell you about what data

1705
01:33:29,439 --> 01:33:31,800
Speaker 3: we do have is the fact that it says you

1706
01:33:31,880 --> 01:33:36,200
Speaker 3: probably have lifelong protection. Okay, that's why measles, mumps, and rubella.

1707
01:33:36,320 --> 01:33:39,440
Speaker 3: That vaccine is easier for me to talk about mandating

1708
01:33:39,439 --> 01:33:42,960
Speaker 3: it because one it stops transmission, it stops you from

1709
01:33:42,960 --> 01:33:45,960
Speaker 3: getting infected, and it's lifelong protection. And this is where

1710
01:33:46,000 --> 01:33:46,840
Speaker 3: you then contribute it.

1711
01:33:46,840 --> 01:33:49,439
Speaker 1: No boosters necessary, And that doesn't look like at this

1712
01:33:49,520 --> 01:33:51,280
Speaker 1: point we'll continue to follow it.

1713
01:33:51,320 --> 01:33:53,200
Speaker 3: I could be back on here tomorrow and say, well,

1714
01:33:53,280 --> 01:33:56,200
Speaker 3: now we have data if you're immune compromised the sixty,

1715
01:33:56,200 --> 01:33:58,640
Speaker 3: you may need a booster. But the bottom line is

1716
01:33:59,000 --> 01:34:01,320
Speaker 3: this is one of those exams amples of a vaccine

1717
01:34:01,439 --> 01:34:04,280
Speaker 3: that is so good that it is putting rods in

1718
01:34:04,320 --> 01:34:08,400
Speaker 3: the reaction. You stop community transmission when you in fact

1719
01:34:08,640 --> 01:34:09,240
Speaker 3: are you.

1720
01:34:09,200 --> 01:34:11,920
Speaker 1: Know, But let's be humble here. What we don't know.

1721
01:34:12,439 --> 01:34:15,479
Speaker 1: We didn't know we were going to reintroduce measles into

1722
01:34:15,520 --> 01:34:17,760
Speaker 1: the population. So there's going to be a whole new

1723
01:34:18,240 --> 01:34:21,040
Speaker 1: slew of people over the age of sixty who even

1724
01:34:21,080 --> 01:34:24,360
Speaker 1: fifty years ago, our elderly population was just not as

1725
01:34:24,400 --> 01:34:27,920
Speaker 1: big because we didn't keep people right. Now, people live longer,

1726
01:34:28,360 --> 01:34:32,880
Speaker 1: so we're going to learn, Okay, what does lifelong protection mean?

1727
01:34:33,000 --> 01:34:36,760
Speaker 1: Is lifelong sixty or is life long eighty? Right? And

1728
01:34:36,800 --> 01:34:40,360
Speaker 1: that's a again as you point out, we got to

1729
01:34:40,400 --> 01:34:41,640
Speaker 1: keep pursuing this, and we do.

1730
01:34:41,840 --> 01:34:44,080
Speaker 3: And the one thing I would say that's in our favor.

1731
01:34:44,240 --> 01:34:48,080
Speaker 3: Sixty years ago, we still had a lot of measles around. Okay,

1732
01:34:48,360 --> 01:34:51,040
Speaker 3: so you may have gotten vaccinated and then gotten an

1733
01:34:51,720 --> 01:34:55,040
Speaker 3: recognized boost by having been exposed to the virus and

1734
01:34:55,080 --> 01:34:58,800
Speaker 3: then only reinforced your protection. Where I worry about is

1735
01:34:58,880 --> 01:35:01,559
Speaker 3: more in the forty year olds, where in fact there

1736
01:35:01,560 --> 01:35:03,879
Speaker 3: were a number of them that never were exposed to measles,

1737
01:35:03,880 --> 01:35:06,400
Speaker 3: because by the time forty years ago we were really

1738
01:35:06,439 --> 01:35:08,840
Speaker 3: starting to improve on this. Let me just point out

1739
01:35:08,880 --> 01:35:12,000
Speaker 3: I had never seen congenital measles in my life until

1740
01:35:12,040 --> 01:35:15,839
Speaker 3: this recent year. Congenital measles occurs when a young pregnant

1741
01:35:15,880 --> 01:35:19,800
Speaker 3: woman gets infected with measles. Why pregnant? Okay, well, why

1742
01:35:19,840 --> 01:35:23,200
Speaker 3: did we not see that before? Because prior to vaccination,

1743
01:35:23,600 --> 01:35:26,240
Speaker 3: virtually everybody under age twenty had already had.

1744
01:35:26,160 --> 01:35:29,720
Speaker 1: Music, so it was it was a heard immunity.

1745
01:35:29,560 --> 01:35:34,160
Speaker 3: Heard immunity. Then after that period, even in the transition

1746
01:35:34,360 --> 01:35:37,679
Speaker 3: years of where we saw vaccine, there was enough people

1747
01:35:37,680 --> 01:35:41,320
Speaker 3: that did get vaccinated that we just didn't see sustained measles.

1748
01:35:41,439 --> 01:35:45,519
Speaker 3: Now we've got enough measles circulating When twenty and twenty

1749
01:35:45,560 --> 01:35:48,240
Speaker 3: five year olds who have never had measles vaccine or

1750
01:35:48,240 --> 01:35:51,320
Speaker 3: who never had measles itself, who are now getting infected

1751
01:35:51,360 --> 01:35:54,720
Speaker 3: wild pregnant. This is a new phenomenon because of the

1752
01:35:54,960 --> 01:35:57,880
Speaker 3: unique nature of what you were just describing of. You

1753
01:35:57,920 --> 01:36:01,479
Speaker 3: know what happens with time, and how does time change them?

1754
01:36:02,000 --> 01:36:04,040
Speaker 1: Would you take your grandkids in Disney World right now?

1755
01:36:06,439 --> 01:36:09,280
Speaker 3: Well, right now I might because there's very little evidence

1756
01:36:09,280 --> 01:36:12,240
Speaker 3: of measles down there beyond what we're seeing anywhere in

1757
01:36:12,240 --> 01:36:12,679
Speaker 3: the country.

1758
01:36:12,720 --> 01:36:15,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, Florida is about to go Florida's about to

1759
01:36:15,240 --> 01:36:16,360
Speaker 1: go anti vacs.

1760
01:36:16,880 --> 01:36:19,280
Speaker 3: In the future, and I've said this, I wouldn't take

1761
01:36:19,320 --> 01:36:22,960
Speaker 3: them in the future. I think that's that's a huge issue.

1762
01:36:23,120 --> 01:36:25,480
Speaker 3: And of course the other thing is happening here.

1763
01:36:25,360 --> 01:36:27,960
Speaker 1: By the way, as an aside, this is my I

1764
01:36:28,000 --> 01:36:31,880
Speaker 1: suspect that at some point the people that own theme

1765
01:36:31,920 --> 01:36:35,519
Speaker 1: parks in Orlando, yep, and are going to put real

1766
01:36:35,560 --> 01:36:38,600
Speaker 1: pressure on government because this is going to have a

1767
01:36:38,680 --> 01:36:40,920
Speaker 1: huge business hit. You're going to have more and more

1768
01:36:40,920 --> 01:36:42,599
Speaker 1: people not coming because of this.

1769
01:36:42,920 --> 01:36:44,559
Speaker 3: Well, let me add on to that if I can

1770
01:36:44,640 --> 01:36:49,759
Speaker 3: pile on right now, almost five thousand kids in Canada

1771
01:36:49,800 --> 01:36:53,519
Speaker 3: have had musles this year. Remember we're talking about twenty

1772
01:36:53,560 --> 01:36:56,559
Speaker 3: five hundred and three thousand cases here. But remember they

1773
01:36:56,600 --> 01:36:58,680
Speaker 3: only have forty million people population.

1774
01:36:58,840 --> 01:37:01,120
Speaker 1: We have three hundred for that per capita something else.

1775
01:37:01,840 --> 01:37:04,680
Speaker 3: And Europe is even worse. Well, how many kids are

1776
01:37:04,680 --> 01:37:07,759
Speaker 3: going to Disney World right now from walt from Canada

1777
01:37:07,920 --> 01:37:11,040
Speaker 3: or from Europe? And so these theme parks are even

1778
01:37:11,080 --> 01:37:14,120
Speaker 3: becoming a greater risk issue because not only is it

1779
01:37:14,160 --> 01:37:17,280
Speaker 3: the United States contributing to it, but all these foreign

1780
01:37:17,400 --> 01:37:21,200
Speaker 3: born individuals. When we're seeing these huge outbreaks of measles

1781
01:37:21,880 --> 01:37:23,920
Speaker 3: around the world, and so this is again as a

1782
01:37:23,960 --> 01:37:26,320
Speaker 3: global issue. What are we doing to deal with it

1783
01:37:26,320 --> 01:37:28,920
Speaker 3: on a global basis? Very little with pulling out of

1784
01:37:28,960 --> 01:37:30,479
Speaker 3: the who I.

1785
01:37:30,439 --> 01:37:33,120
Speaker 1: Do want to land this plane because we can, we can,

1786
01:37:33,200 --> 01:37:35,160
Speaker 1: you can. We can go doom and gloom for quite

1787
01:37:35,160 --> 01:37:36,599
Speaker 1: some time. But I got to ask about H five

1788
01:37:36,680 --> 01:37:40,720
Speaker 1: N one right where we are on that and the

1789
01:37:40,800 --> 01:37:43,839
Speaker 1: concern that it can you know, it hasn't jumped to humans,

1790
01:37:43,920 --> 01:37:45,760
Speaker 1: and that's that's thank goodness.

1791
01:37:45,960 --> 01:37:48,240
Speaker 3: Well, let me just say at the bird flu I'm

1792
01:37:48,240 --> 01:37:51,160
Speaker 3: going to have another influenza pandemic. There's no question about that.

1793
01:37:51,320 --> 01:37:54,160
Speaker 3: Will it be H five N one. Well a year

1794
01:37:54,360 --> 01:37:56,080
Speaker 3: and a half ago when it first showed up in

1795
01:37:56,160 --> 01:37:58,560
Speaker 3: dairy cattle, I was very conservative and said I'm not

1796
01:37:58,640 --> 01:38:00,240
Speaker 3: sure this is going to do it. And people looked

1797
01:38:00,240 --> 01:38:01,720
Speaker 3: at me, like, what do you mean this is your

1798
01:38:01,920 --> 01:38:05,439
Speaker 3: baby pandemic? Well, I said, you know what. I've been

1799
01:38:05,479 --> 01:38:08,320
Speaker 3: involved with this since two thousand and three. When it

1800
01:38:08,400 --> 01:38:11,519
Speaker 3: re emerged in Asia after the nineteen ninety seven outbreak

1801
01:38:11,520 --> 01:38:14,320
Speaker 3: in Hong Kong. I was actually in Indonesia and Malaysia

1802
01:38:14,560 --> 01:38:17,800
Speaker 3: working on this, okay, and we all thought this was it,

1803
01:38:17,800 --> 01:38:20,920
Speaker 3: this coming any day. I watched it go through the

1804
01:38:20,960 --> 01:38:25,719
Speaker 3: next ten years and actually caused very limited problems. Over time,

1805
01:38:25,760 --> 01:38:28,960
Speaker 3: it dropped and dropped, and then we had I was

1806
01:38:29,000 --> 01:38:31,880
Speaker 3: on the National Science Advisor Board for Biosecurity in the US,

1807
01:38:31,920 --> 01:38:35,400
Speaker 3: the group that was supposed to oversee fact research safety

1808
01:38:35,400 --> 01:38:39,200
Speaker 3: in our country, and we had two very important researchers

1809
01:38:39,240 --> 01:38:41,599
Speaker 3: come to our group and said, we're one mutation away

1810
01:38:41,600 --> 01:38:44,439
Speaker 3: from age five in one causing an next pandemic. Oh my,

1811
01:38:45,200 --> 01:38:48,959
Speaker 3: nothing happened. Twenty fifteen, sixteen, we had a major outbreak

1812
01:38:49,000 --> 01:38:52,400
Speaker 3: in the Nile River Valley one hundred and forty some doubts.

1813
01:38:52,920 --> 01:38:56,360
Speaker 3: Then it disappeared, nothing happened. Now we're here with the

1814
01:38:56,439 --> 01:38:58,640
Speaker 3: dairy cattle. I don't know what it's going to do.

1815
01:38:59,080 --> 01:39:01,000
Speaker 3: Anyone that can tell you what age five and one's

1816
01:39:01,000 --> 01:39:03,320
Speaker 3: going to do, good luck. But I will tell you

1817
01:39:03,479 --> 01:39:06,559
Speaker 3: there will be another flu virus that will emerge, so

1818
01:39:06,600 --> 01:39:07,880
Speaker 3: we need to be prepared for it.

1819
01:39:08,760 --> 01:39:13,920
Speaker 1: And is it still you know, the uncomfortable relationship with China?

1820
01:39:14,000 --> 01:39:16,920
Speaker 1: I mean, is China still the is it feels like

1821
01:39:17,000 --> 01:39:21,960
Speaker 1: Asia is the place where this incubates more? Actually is

1822
01:39:21,960 --> 01:39:23,880
Speaker 1: that true or is that just perception?

1823
01:39:24,280 --> 01:39:26,760
Speaker 3: Well, I think it's true to the extent that it

1824
01:39:26,800 --> 01:39:29,400
Speaker 3: should show up anywhere. I mean, look at two thousand

1825
01:39:29,439 --> 01:39:32,639
Speaker 3: and nine, one end one showed up in the pork

1826
01:39:32,720 --> 01:39:36,120
Speaker 3: industry in central Mexico. You know, it's showed up in

1827
01:39:36,160 --> 01:39:39,080
Speaker 3: the pigs. There could occur anywhere. But one of the

1828
01:39:39,080 --> 01:39:41,559
Speaker 3: things we have to understand is, for example, today the

1829
01:39:41,640 --> 01:39:45,360
Speaker 3: fastest conversion of energy to protein is poultry, and so

1830
01:39:45,520 --> 01:39:49,559
Speaker 3: globally we're producing more poultry ever than ever before to

1831
01:39:49,600 --> 01:39:53,080
Speaker 3: feed our eight billion people. Bush meat has become much

1832
01:39:53,120 --> 01:39:57,280
Speaker 3: more commonly consumed in parts of the Africa, Asia, et

1833
01:39:57,320 --> 01:40:00,559
Speaker 3: cetera that never before happened. Now people are be exposed

1834
01:40:00,600 --> 01:40:03,600
Speaker 3: to that, so there's a lot of opportunity for exposure.

1835
01:40:03,960 --> 01:40:07,439
Speaker 3: We just recently recovered a virus from a bat cave

1836
01:40:07,479 --> 01:40:09,880
Speaker 3: in China that is like the one I talked about

1837
01:40:09,960 --> 01:40:13,280
Speaker 3: with covid on steroids, you know, one that had the

1838
01:40:13,320 --> 01:40:16,519
Speaker 3: infectiousness and the ability to kill. That was an isolator

1839
01:40:16,560 --> 01:40:19,760
Speaker 3: from a bat. And so I think, yeah, it's still there,

1840
01:40:19,840 --> 01:40:22,280
Speaker 3: It's still going to happen. I just like I said

1841
01:40:22,320 --> 01:40:24,200
Speaker 3: that the pandemic clock is ticking. I just don't know

1842
01:40:24,240 --> 01:40:25,880
Speaker 3: what time it is, but I know there's a lot

1843
01:40:25,920 --> 01:40:26,360
Speaker 3: we can do.

1844
01:40:26,920 --> 01:40:29,600
Speaker 1: And it sounds like we should be thinking about vaccinating

1845
01:40:29,640 --> 01:40:32,479
Speaker 1: some of our the animals that are part of our

1846
01:40:32,479 --> 01:40:33,080
Speaker 1: food supply.

1847
01:40:33,720 --> 01:40:36,760
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and that is surely on the table now. That

1848
01:40:36,920 --> 01:40:39,800
Speaker 3: was a big trade issue because they didn't want to

1849
01:40:39,840 --> 01:40:43,240
Speaker 3: have to acknowledge that they had vaccinated proof of it.

1850
01:40:43,280 --> 01:40:45,960
Speaker 3: In the US really opposed it. I think that's changing

1851
01:40:46,320 --> 01:40:50,639
Speaker 3: because the wild bird migratory season moves those virus so quickly.

1852
01:40:51,000 --> 01:40:53,960
Speaker 3: So many operations have been hit hard with age five,

1853
01:40:54,439 --> 01:40:56,760
Speaker 3: both dairy and birds, and so I think you're going

1854
01:40:56,800 --> 01:40:57,559
Speaker 3: to see more of that.

1855
01:40:57,600 --> 01:41:02,719
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And you don't view bio terrorism or naturally occurring

1856
01:41:04,400 --> 01:41:06,760
Speaker 1: pandemics as sort of any differently, do you like the

1857
01:41:06,800 --> 01:41:11,560
Speaker 1: preparation is in your mind, the preparation should be identical.

1858
01:41:12,080 --> 01:41:15,439
Speaker 3: You know, I had the opportunity recently to have dinner

1859
01:41:15,479 --> 01:41:19,000
Speaker 3: with a group of former senior intelligence people from the

1860
01:41:19,080 --> 01:41:23,240
Speaker 3: United States, people really on the cutting edge and stay there,

1861
01:41:23,600 --> 01:41:26,320
Speaker 3: and they'll tell you that we've never been at more

1862
01:41:26,439 --> 01:41:30,720
Speaker 3: risk for a bioterrorism bio event as we are now

1863
01:41:30,840 --> 01:41:32,800
Speaker 3: because of everything that's been torn.

1864
01:41:32,560 --> 01:41:35,559
Speaker 1: Down completely again and about it, and.

1865
01:41:35,479 --> 01:41:38,160
Speaker 3: The countries know this. Other countries know this, of course.

1866
01:41:38,360 --> 01:41:41,479
Speaker 3: And if we had a major event today, the CDC

1867
01:41:41,600 --> 01:41:45,240
Speaker 3: Shore couldn't respond, Nobody in HHS could respond. Maybe DO

1868
01:41:45,320 --> 01:41:47,400
Speaker 3: O D could have some response, But how's that going

1869
01:41:47,479 --> 01:41:51,360
Speaker 3: to go? And it would be a real disaster. And

1870
01:41:51,400 --> 01:41:55,559
Speaker 3: again I want to emphasize the Trump one administration had

1871
01:41:55,720 --> 01:41:59,360
Speaker 3: very detailed, comprehensive plans for that, and so it's not

1872
01:41:59,520 --> 01:42:01,160
Speaker 3: a part of it's an issue. It's just that this

1873
01:42:01,280 --> 01:42:03,639
Speaker 3: administration has elected to throw them out.

1874
01:42:03,920 --> 01:42:06,519
Speaker 1: No. Well, look, the book is the big one, and

1875
01:42:06,600 --> 01:42:09,439
Speaker 1: yes it's it is a little bit it's a little

1876
01:42:09,439 --> 01:42:09,920
Speaker 1: bit scary.

1877
01:42:09,920 --> 01:42:13,040
Speaker 3: Michael Well, I just tried to tell the truth. You know,

1878
01:42:13,120 --> 01:42:15,120
Speaker 3: and I did that. You know, you saw how many.

1879
01:42:15,000 --> 01:42:17,200
Speaker 1: Times why you were always the best guest to have

1880
01:42:17,320 --> 01:42:20,080
Speaker 1: because but it was direct. I mean, I do think

1881
01:42:21,040 --> 01:42:24,360
Speaker 1: in some ways the you know, we tried so hard.

1882
01:42:24,439 --> 01:42:27,960
Speaker 1: You know, everybody tried so hard to it's it's it's

1883
01:42:27,960 --> 01:42:30,120
Speaker 1: something I did in the past, which I call rounding

1884
01:42:30,160 --> 01:42:32,120
Speaker 1: the edges, because you want to make everybody feel a

1885
01:42:32,120 --> 01:42:36,160
Speaker 1: little bit better. And ultimately, you know, you just got

1886
01:42:36,200 --> 01:42:39,800
Speaker 1: to be matter of fact. Yep, particularly when it comes

1887
01:42:39,800 --> 01:42:40,320
Speaker 1: to science.

1888
01:42:40,560 --> 01:42:43,680
Speaker 3: Chuck, You've always done that, and I so appreciate you

1889
01:42:43,720 --> 01:42:46,040
Speaker 3: for that, and I hope you continue to have bad voice.

1890
01:42:46,200 --> 01:42:46,919
Speaker 3: It's important.

1891
01:42:47,240 --> 01:42:49,080
Speaker 1: I appreciate you saying that, and I'm glad you're out

1892
01:42:49,080 --> 01:42:54,040
Speaker 1: there one of people. I really hope somebody currently at

1893
01:42:54,200 --> 01:42:57,040
Speaker 1: HHS is reading and to see and this stuff. That's

1894
01:42:57,240 --> 01:42:59,599
Speaker 1: you know, I'm never going to give up hope that

1895
01:42:59,640 --> 01:43:03,280
Speaker 1: there are people in positions of responsibility who won't eventually

1896
01:43:03,320 --> 01:43:05,760
Speaker 1: do the right thing. I'm with you because you know

1897
01:43:05,840 --> 01:43:08,559
Speaker 1: that that, like, you can't one hundred percent give up

1898
01:43:08,600 --> 01:43:10,360
Speaker 1: on somebody because you never know when they might be

1899
01:43:10,360 --> 01:43:10,800
Speaker 1: your ally.

1900
01:43:11,400 --> 01:43:14,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, and again I have hope because I have to

1901
01:43:14,160 --> 01:43:16,720
Speaker 3: have it because of my grandkids. I'm going to have it.

1902
01:43:17,240 --> 01:43:19,559
Speaker 1: If you don't have hope, what's the point that's right,

1903
01:43:20,240 --> 01:43:23,040
Speaker 1: you know, to get really dark, right, and so gosh,

1904
01:43:23,080 --> 01:43:26,120
Speaker 1: you know we're going to have it. Michael Oster Home

1905
01:43:26,160 --> 01:43:27,599
Speaker 1: is always a pleasure. Thank you, Thank you, sir.

1906
01:43:27,720 --> 01:43:29,760
Speaker 3: It's a great item here with you. Thank you very much.

1907
01:43:40,040 --> 01:43:43,080
Speaker 1: All right, I uh, I hope you now learn there's

1908
01:43:43,120 --> 01:43:45,160
Speaker 1: only one type of mask you need to find if

1909
01:43:45,160 --> 01:43:46,920
Speaker 1: you're looking for a mask. I thought that was also

1910
01:43:47,000 --> 01:43:49,639
Speaker 1: very helpful from doctor Osterholm. Right, we all, we all

1911
01:43:49,840 --> 01:43:53,840
Speaker 1: went out there. It turns out although I swear to

1912
01:43:53,880 --> 01:43:56,880
Speaker 1: god I got I got fewer colds. Well, we're all

1913
01:43:56,880 --> 01:43:59,679
Speaker 1: wearing masks. You know. I don't blame people for going

1914
01:43:59,720 --> 01:44:04,439
Speaker 1: when they travel on airplanes and airports. You know, as

1915
01:44:04,479 --> 01:44:07,280
Speaker 1: I'm shaking off, I'd like to think it's a fall allergy.

1916
01:44:07,400 --> 01:44:09,040
Speaker 1: But we shall see. All right, let me take a

1917
01:44:09,040 --> 01:44:16,920
Speaker 1: few questions, ask Chuck. This question comes from Kevin B.

1918
01:44:17,000 --> 01:44:20,080
Speaker 1: He's a high school social studies teacher from Bethlehem, pennsylvani.

1919
01:44:20,080 --> 01:44:23,240
Speaker 1: He says, check with Trump going after media, kim OL, CBS, EPHNOPLIS,

1920
01:44:23,320 --> 01:44:25,559
Speaker 1: et cetera. At what point does he turn his glare

1921
01:44:25,600 --> 01:44:28,479
Speaker 1: to podcasts, especially those from established media NBC or CNN

1922
01:44:28,760 --> 01:44:32,240
Speaker 1: versus independent media, or do podcasts have more protections? I

1923
01:44:32,240 --> 01:44:35,160
Speaker 1: can see scenarios where Trump threatens platforms like Apple Spotify

1924
01:44:35,200 --> 01:44:39,679
Speaker 1: to remove unfavorable podcasters. Curious to hear your thoughts, Well, Kevin,

1925
01:44:39,720 --> 01:44:43,559
Speaker 1: Actually I'm very concerned about this because, well, for obvious reasons.

1926
01:44:43,560 --> 01:44:47,400
Speaker 1: I'm on here, right, but think about the primary platform

1927
01:44:47,479 --> 01:44:51,759
Speaker 1: for independent journalists right now here. They're essentially three platform

1928
01:44:52,560 --> 01:44:58,320
Speaker 1: four platforms, right, There's the Google controlled YouTube, there's Spotify,

1929
01:44:59,200 --> 01:45:07,240
Speaker 1: there's Apple, and there's sub stack. Does the government have

1930
01:45:07,320 --> 01:45:12,000
Speaker 1: ways to apply pressure to Apple? Are there tariffs on iPhones?

1931
01:45:12,479 --> 01:45:14,799
Speaker 1: Does the government have way to put pressure on Google?

1932
01:45:15,400 --> 01:45:15,639
Speaker 3: Hmm?

1933
01:45:16,640 --> 01:45:19,720
Speaker 1: I wonder you see where I'm going here. I am

1934
01:45:19,800 --> 01:45:24,720
Speaker 1: quite concerned essentially in all of this consolidation, and I

1935
01:45:24,800 --> 01:45:27,760
Speaker 1: do think and by the way, I'm pretty convinced now

1936
01:45:28,400 --> 01:45:31,479
Speaker 1: there's a lot of state attorneys general that are going

1937
01:45:31,640 --> 01:45:34,639
Speaker 1: that are going to have some ability to call into

1938
01:45:34,720 --> 01:45:37,599
Speaker 1: question this merger of all the local TV affiliates between

1939
01:45:37,600 --> 01:45:40,320
Speaker 1: Nextstar and Tegna, which was of course what the FCC

1940
01:45:40,520 --> 01:45:42,840
Speaker 1: used to inspire next Star to do what they're doing.

1941
01:45:42,840 --> 01:45:48,160
Speaker 1: In Sinclair's there's this effort to remove the caps that

1942
01:45:48,280 --> 01:45:53,519
Speaker 1: these entities. You know, how many quote unquote local news

1943
01:45:53,600 --> 01:45:56,880
Speaker 1: organizations can you own, and there was always a cap.

1944
01:45:57,120 --> 01:45:58,960
Speaker 1: We want to keep it below fifty percent. There was

1945
01:45:59,000 --> 01:46:00,639
Speaker 1: a cap at one time. It was in the thirties,

1946
01:46:01,479 --> 01:46:05,360
Speaker 1: and it's likely, you know, there's already been telegraphing of this.

1947
01:46:05,960 --> 01:46:09,120
Speaker 1: That's why Tegna and Nextstar decided to merge when Trump

1948
01:46:09,120 --> 01:46:11,400
Speaker 1: got elected. I promise you, if Air's got elected, this

1949
01:46:11,479 --> 01:46:14,439
Speaker 1: Techna and Next Star thing doesn't happen because there is

1950
01:46:14,479 --> 01:46:17,280
Speaker 1: not going to be an FCC from the left that

1951
01:46:17,320 --> 01:46:20,000
Speaker 1: would approve a merger that large. But I'm not one

1952
01:46:20,080 --> 01:46:22,320
Speaker 1: hundred percent convinced that that merger is going to make

1953
01:46:22,360 --> 01:46:25,559
Speaker 1: it through challenges from state's attorney generals and all of that,

1954
01:46:27,800 --> 01:46:30,360
Speaker 1: because you're gonna have a lot of duopolies that are created.

1955
01:46:30,439 --> 01:46:33,880
Speaker 1: Right Nexttar and Tegna as the parent companies for all

1956
01:46:33,880 --> 01:46:36,160
Speaker 1: these locally owned TV stations. If they own in the

1957
01:46:36,160 --> 01:46:39,000
Speaker 1: same market, they'll create a duopoly, and essentially they're going

1958
01:46:39,080 --> 01:46:41,800
Speaker 1: to take away choice from consumers. And that's where an

1959
01:46:41,840 --> 01:46:44,439
Speaker 1: attorney general can step in, particularly a state attorney general.

1960
01:46:45,120 --> 01:46:48,960
Speaker 1: So I am quite nervous about this consolidation of distribution, right,

1961
01:46:49,160 --> 01:46:52,400
Speaker 1: the biggest challenge we have in media. Whether you're at

1962
01:46:52,439 --> 01:46:57,240
Speaker 1: a legacy television network like CBSABC or NBC Fox by

1963
01:46:57,280 --> 01:46:58,880
Speaker 1: the way, I feel this way about Foxy and n

1964
01:46:59,640 --> 01:47:02,400
Speaker 1: MSM see as well. Okay, all these entities, or you're

1965
01:47:02,400 --> 01:47:07,479
Speaker 1: an independent broadcaster on YouTube. The fact of the matter

1966
01:47:07,600 --> 01:47:10,120
Speaker 1: is it is four or five tech companies and their

1967
01:47:10,160 --> 01:47:14,719
Speaker 1: algorithms that control our ability to distribute. You know, when

1968
01:47:14,760 --> 01:47:18,920
Speaker 1: Facebook decided to change its algorithm, Tucker Carlston's Daily Caller

1969
01:47:19,000 --> 01:47:26,040
Speaker 1: suddenly lost half of its traffic. You know that is

1970
01:47:26,120 --> 01:47:28,120
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter what you think of the Daily Caller.

1971
01:47:29,760 --> 01:47:32,040
Speaker 1: The fact that a company could be so powerful is

1972
01:47:32,080 --> 01:47:36,200
Speaker 1: to change an algorithm and can essentially bankrupt a news organization.

1973
01:47:38,360 --> 01:47:42,720
Speaker 1: That's the type of power that should scare us, right,

1974
01:47:42,800 --> 01:47:49,240
Speaker 1: consolidated power. This is something that there are the real

1975
01:47:49,320 --> 01:47:54,040
Speaker 1: conservatives that I know fear consolidated power regardless, right. You know,

1976
01:47:54,080 --> 01:47:57,600
Speaker 1: this is where I think Ted Cruz was reminded of

1977
01:47:57,640 --> 01:48:01,040
Speaker 1: as conservative stripes, right, which is why he spoke out

1978
01:48:01,520 --> 01:48:08,599
Speaker 1: against Brendan Karr on this. Steve Bannon has talked about

1979
01:48:08,600 --> 01:48:11,680
Speaker 1: consolidated power and he is his nervousness of it, right,

1980
01:48:11,720 --> 01:48:14,240
Speaker 1: he thought there was too much power the government had,

1981
01:48:14,920 --> 01:48:16,840
Speaker 1: but he's also not crazy about all the power that

1982
01:48:16,920 --> 01:48:20,479
Speaker 1: an Apple has, for instance. Right, So, I think this

1983
01:48:20,520 --> 01:48:25,960
Speaker 1: is a huge challenge, and I think the first place

1984
01:48:26,040 --> 01:48:29,360
Speaker 1: to begin is to challenge this merger of Tegna and Nexstar.

1985
01:48:29,560 --> 01:48:32,080
Speaker 1: I think it's a I think it's if it gets

1986
01:48:32,080 --> 01:48:34,760
Speaker 1: allowed to go through, you're going to see more consolidation,

1987
01:48:35,479 --> 01:48:38,559
Speaker 1: and it's possible. You know this, you know, it's interesting.

1988
01:48:38,560 --> 01:48:40,880
Speaker 1: There's been some people that have questioned whether Comcast should

1989
01:48:40,880 --> 01:48:42,960
Speaker 1: have been allowed to get NBC Universal. In the minute

1990
01:48:42,960 --> 01:48:45,280
Speaker 1: that they got NBC Universal, it sort of greenlit all

1991
01:48:45,280 --> 01:48:49,439
Speaker 1: these other potential mergers. So and then of course you

1992
01:48:49,479 --> 01:48:52,599
Speaker 1: have the Ellisons who may end up, thanks to this

1993
01:48:52,720 --> 01:48:56,160
Speaker 1: FCC not just control of CBS and Paramount, but then

1994
01:48:56,200 --> 01:49:00,439
Speaker 1: also Warner Brothers and CNN. Again, that's that's a big chunk,

1995
01:49:00,439 --> 01:49:03,559
Speaker 1: And you're essentially going to have the Murdochs controlling all

1996
01:49:03,600 --> 01:49:07,960
Speaker 1: things Fox, the Ellison's controlling all things CBS and CNN

1997
01:49:08,000 --> 01:49:11,920
Speaker 1: and Paramount and Warner Brothers. Comcast is in charge of

1998
01:49:12,240 --> 01:49:17,200
Speaker 1: all things Universal and NBC. Sure I'm going here, right,

1999
01:49:17,200 --> 01:49:20,240
Speaker 1: it's just a handful of companies. Meanwhile, You've got one

2000
01:49:20,280 --> 01:49:25,040
Speaker 1: man in charge of an algorithm at x slash Twitter, essentially,

2001
01:49:25,080 --> 01:49:27,320
Speaker 1: one guy in charge of an algorithm at Meta and

2002
01:49:27,400 --> 01:49:32,960
Speaker 1: Instagram and WhatsApp in Mark Zuckerberg. You got one entity

2003
01:49:33,000 --> 01:49:36,400
Speaker 1: in charge of YouTube, the largest platform where we're all

2004
01:49:36,400 --> 01:49:41,000
Speaker 1: sharing this independent stuff. So, yeah, you're asking me if

2005
01:49:41,040 --> 01:49:46,880
Speaker 1: I'm nervous. Yeah, I'm quite nervous, and in fact I don't.

2006
01:49:47,200 --> 01:49:49,320
Speaker 1: Here's the other thing that podcasters don't have, And this

2007
01:49:49,400 --> 01:49:52,280
Speaker 1: is something that I'm trying to in when I'm trying

2008
01:49:52,280 --> 01:49:55,280
Speaker 1: to build, when I'm trying to build with local news,

2009
01:49:55,600 --> 01:49:59,120
Speaker 1: one of the things I want to do for podcasters

2010
01:49:59,360 --> 01:50:03,920
Speaker 1: is to yeah, create a legal essentially a legal defense

2011
01:50:03,920 --> 01:50:07,040
Speaker 1: fund of sorts. Right. You know, big media company has

2012
01:50:07,320 --> 01:50:11,840
Speaker 1: lawyers to help fend off BS lawsuits like the ones

2013
01:50:12,120 --> 01:50:15,880
Speaker 1: Trump put on the New York Times. Right, But whether

2014
01:50:15,920 --> 01:50:20,200
Speaker 1: you're Chrystaliza, Tara, Paul, Mary myself, you know, a Ben

2015
01:50:20,240 --> 01:50:25,360
Speaker 1: Shapiro Daily Wire, you may not have those deep pockets

2016
01:50:25,400 --> 01:50:31,880
Speaker 1: to withstand a nuisance lawsuit from an angry billionaire. These

2017
01:50:31,880 --> 01:50:35,800
Speaker 1: are the I do think Substack ought to be thinking

2018
01:50:35,800 --> 01:50:38,760
Speaker 1: about this for all of it's, you know, some sort

2019
01:50:38,800 --> 01:50:43,679
Speaker 1: of collective legal protection here. I do think Google wants

2020
01:50:43,720 --> 01:50:46,040
Speaker 1: to do the right thing. My interactions with them have

2021
01:50:46,120 --> 01:50:49,120
Speaker 1: always been a net positive, so I have some faith

2022
01:50:49,160 --> 01:50:51,479
Speaker 1: that they could be a good actor, just like I

2023
01:50:51,479 --> 01:50:53,760
Speaker 1: have some faith that Apple is a you know, they

2024
01:50:53,760 --> 01:50:56,720
Speaker 1: have They have stuck to their guns in privacy in

2025
01:50:56,800 --> 01:51:00,760
Speaker 1: ways that other companies would have folded. So so you know,

2026
01:51:01,880 --> 01:51:06,200
Speaker 1: there's potentially good in there. And perhaps we can get

2027
01:51:06,240 --> 01:51:10,160
Speaker 1: some sort of independent board or something to have some

2028
01:51:10,240 --> 01:51:13,320
Speaker 1: sort of protection on YouTube, because I think, you know,

2029
01:51:13,439 --> 01:51:18,120
Speaker 1: that's that's going to I think more and more Americans

2030
01:51:18,160 --> 01:51:21,080
Speaker 1: are going to be realizing this, and it is.

2031
01:51:23,640 --> 01:51:23,880
Speaker 4: You know.

2032
01:51:23,960 --> 01:51:25,600
Speaker 1: I don't want to sound like a paranoid, but like

2033
01:51:25,640 --> 01:51:28,960
Speaker 1: I said, go on YouTube and criticize big tech and

2034
01:51:29,000 --> 01:51:31,960
Speaker 1: see how how far and wide your information is shared.

2035
01:51:34,479 --> 01:51:38,080
Speaker 1: Next question comes from Pat A from Manoa, New York.

2036
01:51:38,120 --> 01:51:40,120
Speaker 1: K Chuck big fan of the podcast. I'm an independent

2037
01:51:40,160 --> 01:51:42,400
Speaker 1: who often listens while walking my two dogs. All right,

2038
01:51:42,520 --> 01:51:44,360
Speaker 1: I'd love to hear a series comparing what the Republican

2039
01:51:44,439 --> 01:51:48,120
Speaker 1: and Democratic Party say say in their official platforms. You know,

2040
01:51:48,160 --> 01:51:50,799
Speaker 1: they didn't the Republicans didn't have a platform in twenty twenty,

2041
01:51:51,600 --> 01:51:55,120
Speaker 1: by the way, with what they with what they actually

2042
01:51:55,160 --> 01:51:57,479
Speaker 1: do in office. Both twenty twenty four platforms are packed

2043
01:51:57,479 --> 01:52:00,559
Speaker 1: with contradictions. Yes and a fact check. Our past breakdown

2044
01:52:00,560 --> 01:52:03,160
Speaker 1: can help voters cut through the campaign talk before the

2045
01:52:03,200 --> 01:52:08,080
Speaker 1: next election. You know, maybe this is the you actually

2046
01:52:08,120 --> 01:52:10,760
Speaker 1: bring up something that I've been meaning to talk about,

2047
01:52:11,680 --> 01:52:16,840
Speaker 1: and that is this the movement to have midterm conventions

2048
01:52:16,880 --> 01:52:19,479
Speaker 1: that the two national parties want to have, essentially a

2049
01:52:19,560 --> 01:52:23,639
Speaker 1: national gathering that is he said, turn becomes a televised event.

2050
01:52:25,200 --> 01:52:27,120
Speaker 1: I think we've all learned that if you can event

2051
01:52:27,200 --> 01:52:31,479
Speaker 1: tie something. You could take a boring regular season baseball game,

2052
01:52:31,920 --> 01:52:34,599
Speaker 1: put it in Bristol, Tennessee at Bristol Motor Speedway and

2053
01:52:34,680 --> 01:52:39,360
Speaker 1: you get to create an event. Well, politics is no different. Right,

2054
01:52:39,360 --> 01:52:42,240
Speaker 1: you're trying to bring some attention. That's actually going to

2055
01:52:42,320 --> 01:52:45,080
Speaker 1: be the perfect time. I think, right, does it become

2056
01:52:45,800 --> 01:52:48,040
Speaker 1: a Dancing with the Stars like deal and you're just

2057
01:52:48,120 --> 01:52:52,000
Speaker 1: showcasing candidates? Or will we get some platforms? Will we

2058
01:52:52,040 --> 01:52:57,080
Speaker 1: get will we get some sort of semi unified platform.

2059
01:52:57,200 --> 01:53:01,960
Speaker 1: I have a feeling that what you're going to have

2060
01:53:02,120 --> 01:53:05,360
Speaker 1: is because the Democrats floated this idea first. Trump read

2061
01:53:05,360 --> 01:53:07,000
Speaker 1: about it and he said, we got to do this.

2062
01:53:07,040 --> 01:53:10,479
Speaker 1: So he's already got the Republicans planning. I can already

2063
01:53:10,520 --> 01:53:14,000
Speaker 1: picture now a bunch of Democratic nominees for Senate in

2064
01:53:14,160 --> 01:53:18,519
Speaker 1: purple states. Oh maybe former governor of North Carolina will say,

2065
01:53:18,720 --> 01:53:20,240
Speaker 1: I don't know if I have time to join the

2066
01:53:20,280 --> 01:53:23,439
Speaker 1: midterm election midterm convention, right, because do they want to

2067
01:53:23,479 --> 01:53:28,080
Speaker 1: share a stage with zoon Mom Donnie? That's another one?

2068
01:53:28,320 --> 01:53:31,080
Speaker 1: Will the mayor of New York City be invited to speak? Right?

2069
01:53:31,600 --> 01:53:31,800
Speaker 3: So?

2070
01:53:31,880 --> 01:53:37,000
Speaker 1: I could already envision the Democratic infighting about who's speaking,

2071
01:53:37,040 --> 01:53:39,920
Speaker 1: who shows up, all of this. I hope they can

2072
01:53:39,960 --> 01:53:43,000
Speaker 1: get through this and they sort of like have a

2073
01:53:43,080 --> 01:53:44,960
Speaker 1: leader that knows how to sort of pierce through this.

2074
01:53:45,200 --> 01:53:47,800
Speaker 1: I don't have a lot of confidence that they do

2075
01:53:47,920 --> 01:53:52,920
Speaker 1: this is this feels this feels like they have a

2076
01:53:52,960 --> 01:53:56,080
Speaker 1: bunch of operatives, but they don't have a leader in

2077
01:53:56,200 --> 01:54:00,439
Speaker 1: the party right now. But I do think this is

2078
01:54:00,439 --> 01:54:03,120
Speaker 1: a net positive idea. It gets voters more engaged in

2079
01:54:03,160 --> 01:54:06,519
Speaker 1: the midterms, and that should be a net plus. But

2080
01:54:06,600 --> 01:54:08,200
Speaker 1: you know, you'll have the same thing. There'll be some

2081
01:54:08,320 --> 01:54:10,880
Speaker 1: Republicans who are not maga, who aren't going to be

2082
01:54:11,120 --> 01:54:16,000
Speaker 1: comfortable show standing on stage with Donald Trump, especially if

2083
01:54:16,000 --> 01:54:18,479
Speaker 1: the Donald Trump economy is as bad as I fear

2084
01:54:18,520 --> 01:54:21,240
Speaker 1: it could be by the summer of twenty twenty six,

2085
01:54:21,760 --> 01:54:26,840
Speaker 1: but I do think those that will be the time

2086
01:54:28,320 --> 01:54:31,040
Speaker 1: to bring out those platforms and we could do a

2087
01:54:31,080 --> 01:54:35,600
Speaker 1: little It's a good idea. You know, I appreciate you

2088
01:54:35,680 --> 01:54:38,280
Speaker 1: writing in that question, because you know, sometimes we're so

2089
01:54:38,360 --> 01:54:42,080
Speaker 1: I'm so cynical, Like I'll be honest, they write these plats,

2090
01:54:42,120 --> 01:54:46,000
Speaker 1: the platforms always written by well meaning partisans and activists

2091
01:54:46,080 --> 01:54:48,880
Speaker 1: who show up to the party meetings, and the candidates

2092
01:54:48,920 --> 01:54:52,240
Speaker 1: themselves could give two shits about these platforms. So we

2093
01:54:52,400 --> 01:54:55,160
Speaker 1: reporters know this, and so we never make a big

2094
01:54:55,200 --> 01:54:57,840
Speaker 1: deal out of it. But maybe if we made them

2095
01:54:57,840 --> 01:55:00,600
Speaker 1: more responsible and made them own their platform, take what

2096
01:55:00,800 --> 01:55:03,600
Speaker 1: is put into it more seriously from the candidate level,

2097
01:55:03,840 --> 01:55:07,080
Speaker 1: and not just let interest groups and because that's a

2098
01:55:07,080 --> 01:55:10,560
Speaker 1: lot of times these platforms just become placating certain interest groups.

2099
01:55:10,800 --> 01:55:12,640
Speaker 1: You're going to put certain things in there, even if

2100
01:55:12,680 --> 01:55:14,600
Speaker 1: you don't really want the public to know you've put

2101
01:55:14,640 --> 01:55:17,920
Speaker 1: him in there. All right, last question, and I'll get

2102
01:55:17,960 --> 01:55:20,760
Speaker 1: to my I'm gonna get to my preview of what

2103
01:55:20,880 --> 01:55:27,520
Speaker 1: some people are calling the single best couch potato sports

2104
01:55:27,600 --> 01:55:32,400
Speaker 1: weekend you can have coming up this weekend, right baseball,

2105
01:55:33,120 --> 01:55:35,240
Speaker 1: the baseball season ending coming to an end, with a

2106
01:55:35,280 --> 01:55:37,920
Speaker 1: lot of playoff spots up to up for grabs, the

2107
01:55:38,000 --> 01:55:42,800
Speaker 1: Ryder Cup, massive matchups in college football, and frankly some

2108
01:55:42,840 --> 01:55:45,280
Speaker 1: really interesting matchups in the NFL. But before I get

2109
01:55:45,320 --> 01:55:49,560
Speaker 1: to that, the last questionnaire comes from John S from Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

2110
01:55:50,280 --> 01:55:53,600
Speaker 1: Huge history fan. I appreciated your Checkers piece. Thank you.

2111
01:55:53,680 --> 01:55:56,360
Speaker 1: Only history buffs know that as a kid in high school,

2112
01:55:56,560 --> 01:55:59,200
Speaker 1: it always baffled me how the German people came under

2113
01:55:59,400 --> 01:56:01,760
Speaker 1: Hitler's power. I couldn't wrap my mind around that, and

2114
01:56:01,840 --> 01:56:03,600
Speaker 1: here we are, same thing. Every day. I beat my

2115
01:56:03,600 --> 01:56:05,920
Speaker 1: brain on how and why people support him, And I

2116
01:56:06,000 --> 01:56:08,440
Speaker 1: voted Republican for thirty years and the feeling of betrayal

2117
01:56:08,520 --> 01:56:11,080
Speaker 1: is immense. What am I missing in the logic or

2118
01:56:11,120 --> 01:56:13,040
Speaker 1: thinking of the supporters? It pains me to see what

2119
01:56:13,120 --> 01:56:17,720
Speaker 1: is happening to this country? Well, look, I think keep

2120
01:56:17,760 --> 01:56:20,840
Speaker 1: making that effort to figure out what's going on with

2121
01:56:21,720 --> 01:56:25,000
Speaker 1: his supporters. I do think our broken information ecosystem has

2122
01:56:25,200 --> 01:56:28,480
Speaker 1: made a massive contribution to this. I do think the

2123
01:56:28,520 --> 01:56:35,600
Speaker 1: Great Recession really destabilized a lot of people physically and emotionally,

2124
01:56:35,960 --> 01:56:41,440
Speaker 1: and I think we underappreciated that. I think that you know,

2125
01:56:42,000 --> 01:56:44,760
Speaker 1: the amount of people I remember talking to in Trump's

2126
01:56:44,760 --> 01:56:49,480
Speaker 1: first campaign, all of them felt as if the government

2127
01:56:49,600 --> 01:56:54,400
Speaker 1: let them down during the Great Recession, and so there

2128
01:56:54,480 --> 01:56:59,680
Speaker 1: was this well, and you do you have this questioning

2129
01:56:59,720 --> 01:57:04,320
Speaker 1: of of whether the democracy it can work? Is it

2130
01:57:04,360 --> 01:57:08,560
Speaker 1: too bureaucratic? Right? And it's it's not just it's a

2131
01:57:08,600 --> 01:57:10,840
Speaker 1: phenomenon on both the left and the right. Now. It

2132
01:57:10,880 --> 01:57:14,160
Speaker 1: shows itself on the left through the questioning of capitalism.

2133
01:57:14,680 --> 01:57:18,000
Speaker 1: It shows itself on the right with the questioning of

2134
01:57:18,400 --> 01:57:21,840
Speaker 1: liberal democracy. You know Peter Tiel, who's made a bunch

2135
01:57:21,880 --> 01:57:24,120
Speaker 1: of you know, he's made I think it's pay Palace

2136
01:57:24,120 --> 01:57:26,200
Speaker 1: where he made all of his money. But he's a

2137
01:57:26,280 --> 01:57:32,840
Speaker 1: huge now donor in the conservative world, arguably the most

2138
01:57:32,880 --> 01:57:35,720
Speaker 1: important patron to JD Vance's political career. I think Jady

2139
01:57:35,800 --> 01:57:41,280
Speaker 1: Vance worked for Peter Teal sort of essentially got got

2140
01:57:41,280 --> 01:57:43,640
Speaker 1: a salary so that he could be a politician, right,

2141
01:57:43,880 --> 01:57:46,640
Speaker 1: was able to was able to sort of acquire wealth

2142
01:57:46,680 --> 01:57:51,240
Speaker 1: to be a politician. And Peter Tiel has some really

2143
01:57:51,320 --> 01:57:54,120
Speaker 1: radical views. He does not believe in a liberal democracy.

2144
01:57:54,160 --> 01:57:58,160
Speaker 1: When I say liberal, I don't mean left right like

2145
01:57:58,200 --> 01:58:03,200
Speaker 1: in our country liberal versus ill liberal. You know what

2146
01:58:03,360 --> 01:58:06,160
Speaker 1: Orbon has in Hungary is an illiberal democracy. They hold

2147
01:58:06,160 --> 01:58:09,760
Speaker 1: elections there. I think the elections themselves, it's like what's

2148
01:58:09,760 --> 01:58:15,880
Speaker 1: happening in Turkey. The elections themselves are not rigged, but

2149
01:58:16,160 --> 01:58:19,240
Speaker 1: the government is rigged, if it will. Right is sort

2150
01:58:19,280 --> 01:58:22,320
Speaker 1: of rigged against freedoms, and that's what Hungry is, right,

2151
01:58:22,440 --> 01:58:26,320
Speaker 1: rigged against freedoms and rigged to do everything to make

2152
01:58:26,320 --> 01:58:29,920
Speaker 1: it favorable there. And I think you had a conservative

2153
01:58:29,960 --> 01:58:33,120
Speaker 1: movement that felt as if they were all these promises

2154
01:58:33,160 --> 01:58:36,640
Speaker 1: were made to them by presidential candidate to presidential candidate,

2155
01:58:37,600 --> 01:58:40,320
Speaker 1: and they were let down in some form. But I

2156
01:58:40,440 --> 01:58:46,920
Speaker 1: do think what really sort of I think unmooredsome people

2157
01:58:47,720 --> 01:58:52,200
Speaker 1: was the Great Recession, and it had huge for some people.

2158
01:58:52,240 --> 01:58:55,800
Speaker 1: It was personally humiliating what happened to them, losing your

2159
01:58:55,840 --> 01:58:59,680
Speaker 1: house for you know it. You know, it's not just

2160
01:59:00,440 --> 01:59:03,280
Speaker 1: tough on you financially, it's tough on you mentally, emotionally,

2161
01:59:03,520 --> 01:59:08,560
Speaker 1: self esteem issues. You feel like an idiot. So and

2162
01:59:08,600 --> 01:59:11,280
Speaker 1: the government wasn't there for him, right, The government didn't

2163
01:59:11,280 --> 01:59:13,680
Speaker 1: bail them out, bailed out the banks. Why didn't we

2164
01:59:13,720 --> 01:59:16,240
Speaker 1: bail out the people whose houses were being for. You know,

2165
01:59:16,400 --> 01:59:20,600
Speaker 1: why didn't we essentially forgive every foreclosure of somebody who

2166
01:59:20,600 --> 01:59:23,640
Speaker 1: owned a house of five hundred thousand or less. Right,

2167
01:59:25,240 --> 01:59:28,320
Speaker 1: we might we might not be in this place where

2168
01:59:28,320 --> 01:59:31,520
Speaker 1: you have a chunk of people who think the government

2169
01:59:31,600 --> 01:59:33,600
Speaker 1: was such a failure. We shouldn't have to mock. We

2170
01:59:33,600 --> 01:59:37,400
Speaker 1: shouldn't have we kind of need a king slash, you know, dictator,

2171
01:59:37,400 --> 01:59:40,680
Speaker 1: whatever you want. Peter Teel is a believer in this. Now.

2172
01:59:40,680 --> 01:59:42,640
Speaker 1: He has his own reasons for it. I mean, he

2173
01:59:42,800 --> 01:59:45,240
Speaker 1: just you know, he thinks he's smarter than the average,

2174
01:59:45,360 --> 01:59:49,080
Speaker 1: than the public, and that they can decide that. You know,

2175
01:59:49,160 --> 01:59:52,880
Speaker 1: you let your tech overlords decide how things should work,

2176
01:59:53,640 --> 01:59:56,120
Speaker 1: not put it to a vote to the people. So

2177
01:59:58,800 --> 02:00:01,320
Speaker 1: but I do want to points you to a piece

2178
02:00:04,520 --> 02:00:07,080
Speaker 1: that I find found very compelling and I think you

2179
02:00:07,160 --> 02:00:11,760
Speaker 1: will too based on your answer, and that is this idea.

2180
02:00:11,960 --> 02:00:16,040
Speaker 1: It was a piece was alerted to me by Jonathan

2181
02:00:16,160 --> 02:00:19,040
Speaker 1: last and it was about this idea like, you know,

2182
02:00:19,600 --> 02:00:23,360
Speaker 1: are we on the brink of losing the democracy? And

2183
02:00:24,680 --> 02:00:30,640
Speaker 1: what this person was arguing was that American democracy. The

2184
02:00:30,680 --> 02:00:32,880
Speaker 1: person who wrote the essay is a gentleman by the

2185
02:00:32,960 --> 02:00:37,280
Speaker 1: name of Jonathan Sleffer, s c H L. E. F. E. R.

2186
02:00:37,360 --> 02:00:39,120
Speaker 1: I encourage you to read this piece. It's in the

2187
02:00:39,120 --> 02:00:43,000
Speaker 1: political magazine Weekend. He's a former senior researcher in political

2188
02:00:43,000 --> 02:00:45,720
Speaker 1: economy at Harvard Business School. He served as the editor

2189
02:00:45,720 --> 02:00:49,480
Speaker 1: in chief of MIT Technology Technology Review. He's author of

2190
02:00:49,520 --> 02:00:52,240
Speaker 1: a couple of books, Palace Politics, How the Ruling Party

2191
02:00:52,240 --> 02:00:55,720
Speaker 1: Brought Crisis to Mexico and another book called the Assumption's

2192
02:00:55,760 --> 02:01:00,360
Speaker 1: Economists Make. And he's essentially trying to study democracy. Sees

2193
02:01:01,400 --> 02:01:07,640
Speaker 1: that didn't fail, right, that had some threats to this

2194
02:01:08,720 --> 02:01:12,720
Speaker 1: and he notes a few things that make our democracy

2195
02:01:12,760 --> 02:01:15,120
Speaker 1: a bit stronger. Number one, it's presidential. He notes that

2196
02:01:15,200 --> 02:01:19,000
Speaker 1: actually parliamentary systems are more susceptible to the strong man

2197
02:01:20,920 --> 02:01:24,360
Speaker 1: than than presidential type of democracies, right where there's a

2198
02:01:24,520 --> 02:01:29,040
Speaker 1: single executive rather than the parliamentary systems, because you know,

2199
02:01:29,080 --> 02:01:31,160
Speaker 1: you can sort of take control of a coalition and

2200
02:01:31,200 --> 02:01:34,240
Speaker 1: when when in these parliamentary systems, you know, as long

2201
02:01:34,280 --> 02:01:36,240
Speaker 1: as you keep the coalition together, you can jam through

2202
02:01:36,240 --> 02:01:39,520
Speaker 1: all sorts of laws, uh, and all sorts of controls

2203
02:01:39,520 --> 02:01:41,600
Speaker 1: on the population and the public and the media and

2204
02:01:41,640 --> 02:01:44,600
Speaker 1: all this stuff. Right that is, you know, look a

2205
02:01:44,880 --> 02:01:47,000
Speaker 1: look at how Putin has gone back and forth between

2206
02:01:47,040 --> 02:01:50,040
Speaker 1: being Prime Minister and president right in different ways that

2207
02:01:50,080 --> 02:01:54,680
Speaker 1: he's done it in their system, and Orbon has pulled

2208
02:01:54,680 --> 02:01:57,600
Speaker 1: this off. But the other point that he makes is frankly,

2209
02:01:57,640 --> 02:02:01,840
Speaker 1: we're too wealthy. And the point he essentially makes is

2210
02:02:03,000 --> 02:02:09,960
Speaker 1: that the wealthier a country is, the more invested those

2211
02:02:10,000 --> 02:02:12,440
Speaker 1: wealthy people are in the rule of law. Right, the

2212
02:02:12,480 --> 02:02:14,760
Speaker 1: fear of losing their wealth only comes at the rule

2213
02:02:14,800 --> 02:02:18,760
Speaker 1: of law collapses. And it's not just that we, you

2214
02:02:18,800 --> 02:02:21,240
Speaker 1: know we and by wealth it's sort of we have

2215
02:02:21,320 --> 02:02:24,360
Speaker 1: a Yes, we have a massive income and equality and

2216
02:02:24,360 --> 02:02:28,600
Speaker 1: income inequality is something you have to worry about in

2217
02:02:28,600 --> 02:02:32,040
Speaker 1: a crumbling democracy if it's going to hold up, and

2218
02:02:32,080 --> 02:02:35,520
Speaker 1: we certainly, you know, we unfortunately check that box. But

2219
02:02:35,640 --> 02:02:38,600
Speaker 1: we still have a fairly wealthy middle class as compared

2220
02:02:38,640 --> 02:02:41,640
Speaker 1: to many other countries around the world. And our middle

2221
02:02:41,680 --> 02:02:44,920
Speaker 1: class is wealthy enough that this person argues that, look,

2222
02:02:44,960 --> 02:02:50,480
Speaker 1: we're we may have demagogues as our leaders every now

2223
02:02:50,480 --> 02:02:54,120
Speaker 1: and then, but it hasn't gone full authoritarian, and that

2224
02:02:54,360 --> 02:02:58,680
Speaker 1: he believes between our presidential system, which makes that difficult

2225
02:02:58,760 --> 02:03:02,840
Speaker 1: because he can't really don't have full control over the legislature,

2226
02:03:05,440 --> 02:03:08,400
Speaker 1: and I mean even now, right, It's look, even though

2227
02:03:08,640 --> 02:03:11,520
Speaker 1: he has control, he can't keep the government open without

2228
02:03:11,560 --> 02:03:14,840
Speaker 1: the help of the Democrats. Right, So that's one. It's

2229
02:03:14,880 --> 02:03:19,360
Speaker 1: just one reminder there, but that essentially, no nation as

2230
02:03:19,400 --> 02:03:22,120
Speaker 1: wealthy as ours has ever lost, no democracy as wealthy

2231
02:03:22,120 --> 02:03:25,520
Speaker 1: as ours has ever gone. Now So anyway, it was

2232
02:03:25,520 --> 02:03:29,400
Speaker 1: a compelling piece and a pretty decent retort to the

2233
02:03:29,440 --> 02:03:32,160
Speaker 1: doom and gloomerism that's out there. I mean, look, what

2234
02:03:32,200 --> 02:03:35,520
Speaker 1: I like to say is I'm short pessimistic, long term optimistic.

2235
02:03:36,120 --> 02:03:37,720
Speaker 1: I think I would have said that in nineteen thirty

2236
02:03:37,800 --> 02:03:42,040
Speaker 1: nine as well, now, which and I would have been

2237
02:03:42,040 --> 02:03:45,600
Speaker 1: technically correct. Short term pessimistic. A lot of people died

2238
02:03:46,040 --> 02:03:52,640
Speaker 1: fighting for essentially freedom, But by nineteen forty six we

2239
02:03:52,640 --> 02:03:59,240
Speaker 1: were okay, So short term pessimistic, long term optimistic. It

2240
02:03:59,280 --> 02:04:02,920
Speaker 1: all depends on, you know, can we can we get

2241
02:04:02,960 --> 02:04:10,000
Speaker 1: through this without a sustained level of mass violence? Right now,

2242
02:04:10,040 --> 02:04:13,720
Speaker 1: it's isolated violence what we're going through, and we've had

2243
02:04:13,800 --> 02:04:17,200
Speaker 1: periods of this before. Of the isolated violence, the question

2244
02:04:17,480 --> 02:04:22,240
Speaker 1: is whether we can avoid what happened in Europe for

2245
02:04:22,400 --> 02:04:25,560
Speaker 1: World War two. So on that uplifting note, let me

2246
02:04:26,200 --> 02:04:28,640
Speaker 1: but in all honestly, the piece itself might actually make

2247
02:04:28,640 --> 02:04:34,920
Speaker 1: you feel better. I think maybe I'm wrong, but I'd

2248
02:04:34,960 --> 02:04:37,520
Speaker 1: like to think it will. It will make you feel better,

2249
02:04:37,600 --> 02:04:40,640
Speaker 1: So John, I hope, and maybe you could bring it,

2250
02:04:40,840 --> 02:04:45,480
Speaker 1: you know, and maybe it'll fire you up for a

2251
02:04:45,520 --> 02:04:48,240
Speaker 1: deeper dive on this. He had a lot of links

2252
02:04:48,240 --> 02:04:51,879
Speaker 1: in that piece for these various charts sort of ranking

2253
02:04:52,160 --> 02:04:55,640
Speaker 1: weaknesses of democracy, strength, et cetera. It was a It's

2254
02:04:55,680 --> 02:04:59,880
Speaker 1: a really well researched piece. So you will. Given the

2255
02:05:00,200 --> 02:05:03,120
Speaker 1: that you enjoyed the Checkers nugget that I did, you

2256
02:05:03,160 --> 02:05:05,840
Speaker 1: will enjoy this piece, all right. I just want to

2257
02:05:05,840 --> 02:05:08,760
Speaker 1: preview we do it is It is a great weekend. Look,

2258
02:05:08,800 --> 02:05:12,360
Speaker 1: I am not as I'm one of those casual golf fans.

2259
02:05:12,440 --> 02:05:16,120
Speaker 1: I love it in May and April and May and

2260
02:05:16,240 --> 02:05:20,120
Speaker 1: June and July when I got football competing with it,

2261
02:05:21,360 --> 02:05:24,360
Speaker 1: you know, the Ryder Cup, I don't. It may make

2262
02:05:24,400 --> 02:05:28,400
Speaker 1: a box for me. You know, we'll see. I certainly

2263
02:05:28,440 --> 02:05:31,440
Speaker 1: will be if it's competitive in the last day, you know,

2264
02:05:31,760 --> 02:05:35,240
Speaker 1: I'll get into it. I'm not gonna lie, but it's

2265
02:05:35,240 --> 02:05:40,360
Speaker 1: an amazing weekend. The College Football Slate's fantastic with Alabama

2266
02:05:40,400 --> 02:05:44,040
Speaker 1: and Georgia and Penn State and Oregon. Right, that is

2267
02:05:44,080 --> 02:05:47,240
Speaker 1: sort of one A and one B on the list.

2268
02:05:47,680 --> 02:05:50,920
Speaker 1: There's some other half decent games out there as well

2269
02:05:50,960 --> 02:05:55,560
Speaker 1: that will tell us a few things about who could

2270
02:05:55,560 --> 02:05:58,320
Speaker 1: matter and who won't. The college football playoff Friday night,

2271
02:05:58,520 --> 02:06:00,920
Speaker 1: I care about a game on Friday Night. It is

2272
02:06:01,280 --> 02:06:03,440
Speaker 1: Florida State is going on the road to play UVA,

2273
02:06:04,280 --> 02:06:06,920
Speaker 1: and if they win that game, then it's undefeated Miami

2274
02:06:07,000 --> 02:06:10,600
Speaker 1: versus undefeated Florida State. A week later where we think

2275
02:06:10,600 --> 02:06:14,280
Speaker 1: game day will show up and Game Day in Tallahassee

2276
02:06:14,320 --> 02:06:16,800
Speaker 1: is going to be an interesting affair. A lot of

2277
02:06:16,800 --> 02:06:20,960
Speaker 1: Florida State fans still upset with mister Herbstreet on how

2278
02:06:21,000 --> 02:06:25,400
Speaker 1: he led the charge to keep Florida State out of

2279
02:06:25,400 --> 02:06:28,400
Speaker 1: the playoff two years ago, which continues to be one

2280
02:06:28,440 --> 02:06:35,080
Speaker 1: of the great travesties. I think, really sort of it

2281
02:06:35,160 --> 02:06:39,320
Speaker 1: was a step in pushing football towards wrestling. Right. My

2282
02:06:39,480 --> 02:06:43,960
Speaker 1: biggest fear of this sort of convergence of a fake

2283
02:06:44,040 --> 02:06:47,800
Speaker 1: sport like wrestling, which is an entertainment show, merging it

2284
02:06:47,920 --> 02:06:52,080
Speaker 1: with a sports television network is that you're going to

2285
02:06:52,160 --> 02:06:54,000
Speaker 1: blur the lines and you may get more and more

2286
02:06:54,040 --> 02:06:58,080
Speaker 1: people believing that all of this stuff is scripted and

2287
02:06:58,120 --> 02:06:59,800
Speaker 1: none of this stuff is on the up and up,

2288
02:06:59,840 --> 02:07:03,760
Speaker 1: And I don't like that. Florida State had a meritocracy

2289
02:07:03,800 --> 02:07:09,720
Speaker 1: and they got screwed because the wrestling promoters. Essentially, the

2290
02:07:09,720 --> 02:07:14,880
Speaker 1: promoters wanted a better, more complete team to promote and

2291
02:07:15,160 --> 02:07:19,120
Speaker 1: they thought they found a way around it. So it'll

2292
02:07:19,160 --> 02:07:22,080
Speaker 1: be interesting to see how Florida State fans greet the

2293
02:07:22,240 --> 02:07:25,600
Speaker 1: ESPN personalities when they show up there. But I'm going

2294
02:07:25,680 --> 02:07:28,520
Speaker 1: to be watching that game intently. That's a pretty important

2295
02:07:28,560 --> 02:07:31,800
Speaker 1: game as far as I'm concerned. The NFL slate is

2296
02:07:31,880 --> 02:07:34,120
Speaker 1: of extra interest to me because my beloved Green Bay

2297
02:07:34,120 --> 02:07:37,960
Speaker 1: Packers are going to Dallas, Texas Sunday night football Micah

2298
02:07:38,000 --> 02:07:42,800
Speaker 1: Parsons returns to Dallas. Well, I plan on witnessing that

2299
02:07:42,840 --> 02:07:45,480
Speaker 1: game in person. I want to go check in on

2300
02:07:45,560 --> 02:07:48,240
Speaker 1: my son, and what a terrific opportunity for me to

2301
02:07:48,320 --> 02:07:52,000
Speaker 1: check in my son and take in an interesting game.

2302
02:07:52,040 --> 02:07:54,760
Speaker 1: It's actually my second visit to Jerry World. I will

2303
02:07:54,800 --> 02:07:57,960
Speaker 1: tell you I really enjoyed watching a football game there.

2304
02:07:58,040 --> 02:08:02,120
Speaker 1: That is a very nice experience. I'm not the biggest

2305
02:08:02,120 --> 02:08:04,360
Speaker 1: Cowboys fan, but it's a very nice experience. A few

2306
02:08:04,360 --> 02:08:07,560
Speaker 1: other college games of note that are going to matter

2307
02:08:07,600 --> 02:08:10,880
Speaker 1: a lot. USC versus Illinois is USC for real. If

2308
02:08:10,920 --> 02:08:14,080
Speaker 1: they are they should paste Illinois in Champagne. But it

2309
02:08:14,120 --> 02:08:16,240
Speaker 1: is a road game and they are traveling two time zones.

2310
02:08:16,680 --> 02:08:20,440
Speaker 1: Notre Dame goes to Fayetteville. That's exciting for my friends

2311
02:08:20,480 --> 02:08:23,080
Speaker 1: in Fayetteville. I have to tell you this is one

2312
02:08:23,120 --> 02:08:26,400
Speaker 1: of those that some of the gambling guys would call

2313
02:08:26,400 --> 02:08:29,080
Speaker 1: a rat line. Why is Notre Dame only favored four

2314
02:08:29,080 --> 02:08:32,240
Speaker 1: and a half over a team that just lost to

2315
02:08:32,280 --> 02:08:36,000
Speaker 1: a group of five school in Memphis just a week ago.

2316
02:08:37,680 --> 02:08:40,040
Speaker 1: That is one of those. Let's just say, as a gambler,

2317
02:08:40,080 --> 02:08:43,720
Speaker 1: I'm staying away as a Miami patron who wants Miami's

2318
02:08:43,760 --> 02:08:48,240
Speaker 1: wins to look better. Please Notre Dame act like you're

2319
02:08:48,240 --> 02:08:53,440
Speaker 1: a playoff team and send Sam Pittman packing, because if

2320
02:08:53,440 --> 02:08:56,240
Speaker 1: he does get embarrassed in Fayetteville in the home ground

2321
02:08:56,240 --> 02:08:58,600
Speaker 1: in front of this game, he might not finish the

2322
02:08:58,680 --> 02:09:02,640
Speaker 1: season on that front. And the other game, there's two

2323
02:09:02,680 --> 02:09:04,880
Speaker 1: other games that I think are deserve a little more

2324
02:09:04,880 --> 02:09:07,720
Speaker 1: attention than they're getting. One is Ohio State going to

2325
02:09:07,880 --> 02:09:11,839
Speaker 1: Washington Man. That is a tough place to play in Seattle.

2326
02:09:12,120 --> 02:09:14,320
Speaker 1: That is a stadium that I have not been to yet,

2327
02:09:14,360 --> 02:09:15,760
Speaker 1: and I want to go to. I want to do

2328
02:09:15,800 --> 02:09:17,440
Speaker 1: the boat thing or you go up there in the

2329
02:09:17,440 --> 02:09:21,760
Speaker 1: boat and do all that business. One of the worst

2330
02:09:22,000 --> 02:09:24,840
Speaker 1: losses that I can remember Miami having took place in

2331
02:09:24,840 --> 02:09:28,960
Speaker 1: that stadiums. They have great fans out there, those Husky fans.

2332
02:09:30,040 --> 02:09:31,960
Speaker 1: I think we're going to learn a lot about Ohio State.

2333
02:09:32,160 --> 02:09:39,200
Speaker 1: I'm not so convinced. It's sort of like it's it's

2334
02:09:39,240 --> 02:09:41,200
Speaker 1: a real test. If Ohio State comes out with a

2335
02:09:41,240 --> 02:09:44,760
Speaker 1: win by one point, they deserve credit. Any victory there

2336
02:09:44,920 --> 02:09:48,120
Speaker 1: is interesting. LSU all miss well Lane Kiffin ever win

2337
02:09:48,160 --> 02:09:52,200
Speaker 1: a big game. I love Lane Kiffin. I enjoy him.

2338
02:09:52,600 --> 02:09:56,440
Speaker 1: He is entertaining to me. His teams play great offense,

2339
02:09:56,720 --> 02:09:59,480
Speaker 1: They're not always the most disciplined teams, and they seem

2340
02:09:59,520 --> 02:10:01,560
Speaker 1: to just screw up a game here or there where

2341
02:10:01,600 --> 02:10:04,800
Speaker 1: they shouldn't. Right like last year they lost a dumb game.

2342
02:10:04,840 --> 02:10:08,880
Speaker 1: I think it was just God, what was the was Kentucky?

2343
02:10:09,240 --> 02:10:11,160
Speaker 1: The Kentucky went like two and ten last year, but

2344
02:10:11,160 --> 02:10:12,960
Speaker 1: one of their two victories I think was ole Miss.

2345
02:10:14,320 --> 02:10:16,680
Speaker 1: LSU's going to Oxford another great place to watch a

2346
02:10:16,680 --> 02:10:19,480
Speaker 1: football game that I have gotten to do, and that

2347
02:10:19,680 --> 02:10:22,440
Speaker 1: is a great atmosphere. But both LSU and Ole Miss

2348
02:10:22,640 --> 02:10:26,000
Speaker 1: need this game, and loser may have a may have

2349
02:10:26,040 --> 02:10:31,360
Speaker 1: a hard time. And then Indiana visits Iowa City. Indiana

2350
02:10:31,480 --> 02:10:37,040
Speaker 1: just beat the pants off of Illinois. Iowa is so

2351
02:10:37,080 --> 02:10:39,080
Speaker 1: hard to play at Iowa City. There's such a different

2352
02:10:39,120 --> 02:10:40,840
Speaker 1: team at home than they are on the road. They

2353
02:10:40,880 --> 02:10:44,480
Speaker 1: are they are Jekyl and Hyde. Iowa is a paper

2354
02:10:44,520 --> 02:10:47,960
Speaker 1: tiger on the road, but Iowa at home comes across

2355
02:10:48,000 --> 02:10:52,400
Speaker 1: like a juggernaut of time. So the point is, it's

2356
02:10:52,400 --> 02:10:54,640
Speaker 1: a hell of a it's a hell of a good weekend.

2357
02:10:54,720 --> 02:10:57,560
Speaker 1: We also have Raven's Chiefs. They're both one and two,

2358
02:10:58,200 --> 02:11:01,560
Speaker 1: So the loser of the Raven Chiefs game on Sunday

2359
02:11:01,680 --> 02:11:05,320
Speaker 1: is going to be one in three, the same record

2360
02:11:06,440 --> 02:11:08,880
Speaker 1: as our friends at Clemson have one and three, which

2361
02:11:08,920 --> 02:11:13,000
Speaker 1: is leading two questions about Dabo Sweeney's future. I don't

2362
02:11:13,000 --> 02:11:16,120
Speaker 1: think anybody's gonna question any Reid or John Harbaugh on

2363
02:11:16,160 --> 02:11:19,080
Speaker 1: this one between the Chiefs and the Ravens, but wow,

2364
02:11:19,520 --> 02:11:23,879
Speaker 1: one of those two teams gonna be one and three. Anyway,

2365
02:11:24,360 --> 02:11:25,920
Speaker 1: it is going to be a great weekend in sports.

2366
02:11:26,960 --> 02:11:30,600
Speaker 1: If you're looking to sort of a distraction from the

2367
02:11:31,040 --> 02:11:34,840
Speaker 1: gyrations of the political world. This weekend is delivering. You've

2368
02:11:34,880 --> 02:11:41,400
Speaker 1: got WNBA playoffs, You've got the baseball season wrapping up.

2369
02:11:42,000 --> 02:11:44,320
Speaker 1: I'm really pulling for the Reds to get that last

2370
02:11:44,320 --> 02:11:47,120
Speaker 1: playoff spot. Sorry to my Mets fan friends out there,

2371
02:11:47,160 --> 02:11:49,520
Speaker 1: but come on, It'll be a lot more fun to

2372
02:11:49,520 --> 02:11:53,080
Speaker 1: see Ellie get into the playoffs for the very first time.

2373
02:11:53,120 --> 02:11:55,400
Speaker 1: I'd love to see him get in the playoffs. That

2374
02:11:55,440 --> 02:11:59,360
Speaker 1: will be fun. I know that the baseball executives want

2375
02:11:59,360 --> 02:12:00,720
Speaker 1: the big New York time even there. I get it.

2376
02:12:00,720 --> 02:12:03,200
Speaker 1: But you're already gonna get Otani and all that stuff.

2377
02:12:03,280 --> 02:12:05,800
Speaker 1: So and you already got Aaron Judge, You're fine on

2378
02:12:05,840 --> 02:12:08,080
Speaker 1: this front. I think you want Ellie de la Cruz.

2379
02:12:08,120 --> 02:12:10,600
Speaker 1: SODA's already a star. Elie de la Cruz needs to

2380
02:12:10,640 --> 02:12:12,840
Speaker 1: be a bigger star. You want the Reds to get

2381
02:12:12,880 --> 02:12:15,640
Speaker 1: in there. That and I may or may not have

2382
02:12:15,680 --> 02:12:21,680
Speaker 1: a ticket on them making the playoffs. That would, uh

2383
02:12:21,880 --> 02:12:24,120
Speaker 1: would allow would allow me to pay my power bill

2384
02:12:24,160 --> 02:12:27,920
Speaker 1: this month anyway, So with that, uh, I hope you

2385
02:12:28,000 --> 02:12:31,960
Speaker 1: enjoy the weekend and I'll see you in seventy two

2386
02:12:32,000 --> 02:12:32,480
Speaker 1: to ninety six.

2387
02:12:32,560 --> 02:12:33,040
Speaker 4: Hous