1
00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,320
Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome

2
00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:30,200
Speaker 1: back to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you so much

3
00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:35,600
Speaker 1: as always for tuning in. Congratulations, welcome to three. No,

4
00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:42,080
Speaker 1: you did it, you got the best? Oh hey yeah, hey,

5
00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:43,680
Speaker 1: can you get sued for saying you have a dab

6
00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:47,680
Speaker 1: a dude? No? No, no, it's not trademarked in some

7
00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:52,479
Speaker 1: unscrupulous way. It's uh you. I think it would depend

8
00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:56,400
Speaker 1: on how you did it, Like if it was yabadabadude

9
00:00:56,440 --> 00:01:02,320
Speaker 1: with the Flintstones theme behind it, Max superproducer Max, let's

10
00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:04,520
Speaker 1: give it up for him. Yeah, I know it's tempting

11
00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:08,880
Speaker 1: that Yeah, but we we I mean, it's got to

12
00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:11,800
Speaker 1: be public domain by it. Now, maybe I mean it

13
00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:13,760
Speaker 1: gets re opted. I'm sure that one. You just have

14
00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:16,800
Speaker 1: to make something that's basically the flint Stones but a

15
00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:20,680
Speaker 1: little different, like family guy. You know, totally remember Scooby

16
00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:24,240
Speaker 1: Doo does Scooby Dooby Doo, which is very adjacent to

17
00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:26,800
Speaker 1: Yabadabad But that's also in the hand of Barbara universe still,

18
00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:30,640
Speaker 1: so they're allowed to steal from themselves. What's this got

19
00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:34,440
Speaker 1: to do with anything? Nothing? We could. Rabbi hab A,

20
00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:38,520
Speaker 1: Rabbi hab A who if anyone can do it, and

21
00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:42,560
Speaker 1: it's the master of transitions, of of non sequit or transition.

22
00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:44,520
Speaker 1: Let's see, let'slet's see what you got. Oh man, we

23
00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,880
Speaker 1: go from Yabadaba Dude to two Gangster's Paradise. First off,

24
00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:53,120
Speaker 1: wonderful song. Uh yeah, this is this is something that's

25
00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:55,320
Speaker 1: been on our minds for a while. As you know, folks,

26
00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:58,240
Speaker 1: we took Noel and Max and I took some time

27
00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:02,160
Speaker 1: a little u are in our little ridiculous romance, I

28
00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:04,320
Speaker 1: think he called it and all. Uh, and we hope

29
00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:08,360
Speaker 1: you had a wonderful, wonderful end of the year as well.

30
00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:12,960
Speaker 1: Even though calendars are relatively arbitrary, it's fun to have things. Yeah,

31
00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:16,519
Speaker 1: we did, we did, indeed. And uh. And so when

32
00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:20,640
Speaker 1: we're talking about flynt Stone's we're talking about uh, Hannah,

33
00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:24,639
Speaker 1: Barbara and unineteen. What I love that you pointed out,

34
00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,919
Speaker 1: all is that Scooby Doo is indeed in the same universe.

35
00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:32,400
Speaker 1: And in my mind, that makes them strange bed fellows.

36
00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:35,359
Speaker 1: Right in my mind is I know, I know, whatever

37
00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:37,639
Speaker 1: we're kicking off the rust in my mind, this makes

38
00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:41,400
Speaker 1: them strange bedfellows. And when we think of strange bedfellows, uh,

39
00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:45,160
Speaker 1: there's almost no better example in American history than this

40
00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:48,359
Speaker 1: very weird story. We've got a lot of people to thank. No,

41
00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:53,480
Speaker 1: you were telling me there we should thank Boardwalk Empire. Yeah,

42
00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,880
Speaker 1: Steve Shemi and his weird eyes that are really fun

43
00:02:56,919 --> 00:03:01,079
Speaker 1: to superimpose on the Disney processes. Google, you be delighted,

44
00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:04,400
Speaker 1: slash terrified. But yeah, I mean, you know, Boardwick Empire.

45
00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:07,280
Speaker 1: Um sort of. I guess it was a hit. Did

46
00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:09,600
Speaker 1: did see itself out to its conclusion, but I felt

47
00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:12,360
Speaker 1: like it wasn't like Sopranos level in terms of the

48
00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:14,880
Speaker 1: way it impacted like the Zeke guys, But I very

49
00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:17,880
Speaker 1: much liked it. I think they fudged some history here

50
00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:20,880
Speaker 1: and there, but they largely, you know, hit the broad

51
00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:25,840
Speaker 1: strokes in terms of folks like Lucky Luciano and uh,

52
00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:28,320
Speaker 1: you know al Capone and you know, sort of like

53
00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:32,240
Speaker 1: origin stories of a lot of these largely looming mafio

54
00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,080
Speaker 1: so figures you know, in history. But what it didn't

55
00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:40,640
Speaker 1: really go into was a connection between the US military, uh,

56
00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:46,680
Speaker 1: fascism and said largely looming gangster figures. Yeah. Now it

57
00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:50,400
Speaker 1: might sound like we got together before we recorded and

58
00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:54,480
Speaker 1: just pulled three ideas out of a hat, like you said,

59
00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:57,000
Speaker 1: do do that sometimes we we have done that, and

60
00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:59,360
Speaker 1: it's actually worked. We're not going to tell you which

61
00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,280
Speaker 1: ones though, you'll have to guess. Uh. But I love

62
00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,800
Speaker 1: I love the set up here because you know, when

63
00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:10,160
Speaker 1: you think of Uncle Sam right according to history textbooks,

64
00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:12,320
Speaker 1: and you think of organized crime, you see them as

65
00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:16,280
Speaker 1: two opposed forces. But as we've learned in ridiculous history

66
00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:18,400
Speaker 1: and and stuff, they don't want you to know, that's

67
00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:25,760
Speaker 1: not always the case. Now. Fascism, nowadays, fascism is pretty

68
00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:29,920
Speaker 1: much universally acknowledged to be a bad thing. Fascism bad.

69
00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:34,599
Speaker 1: Democracy good on paper, you know what I mean, better

70
00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:39,040
Speaker 1: than fascism. That should be the tagline for democracy. It's

71
00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:43,599
Speaker 1: better than the fascist democracy, not great, but better than fascist.

72
00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:45,880
Speaker 1: Who was it, I can't remember who it was. You said,

73
00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:51,960
Speaker 1: um that democracy was the something like the least worst

74
00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:56,600
Speaker 1: way to run a government. Yeah, big fan of saying

75
00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:01,080
Speaker 1: things like the most best or the least worst. But um, yeah,

76
00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:04,440
Speaker 1: I mean it's true. And you know, even uh folks,

77
00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:06,960
Speaker 1: well you know, I mean a lot of these Italian

78
00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:10,760
Speaker 1: American immigrants who kind of created or sowed the seeds

79
00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:14,800
Speaker 1: of what would become la Cosa nostra in America. Um,

80
00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:19,359
Speaker 1: they you know, Italy was under a fascist regime, you know,

81
00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,640
Speaker 1: under under Mussolini, and so they didn't care for that

82
00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:27,080
Speaker 1: as a as a political direction either, you know, because

83
00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:29,520
Speaker 1: they've seen what it could cause, or even you know,

84
00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:33,000
Speaker 1: maybe their folks back home were subject to it. Yeah, yeah,

85
00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:38,560
Speaker 1: and look are there good guys in today's story? Sort of?

86
00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:40,360
Speaker 1: But this is a media and this is a two parter.

87
00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:45,000
Speaker 1: We wanted to open the year with a dunk dunk dun.

88
00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:50,920
Speaker 1: That's why we got two bells. So, yes, yes, it's

89
00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:52,560
Speaker 1: a Christmas present by the way, from friend of the

90
00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:56,560
Speaker 1: show of Rowan Nuby, Yes, who appeared on our Idiomatic

91
00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:59,159
Speaker 1: for the People's Series. We've got to get him in

92
00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:05,960
Speaker 1: our pal Frank back on. So we're gonna have more guests,

93
00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:08,880
Speaker 1: but right now it's just the four of us, Noel,

94
00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:13,400
Speaker 1: Max yours truly and you listening along at home to

95
00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:16,560
Speaker 1: learn a very weird story. All right, So why why

96
00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:21,600
Speaker 1: do we say they're not necessarily good guys in this? Well,

97
00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:26,480
Speaker 1: the US government during World War Two got even more

98
00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:32,240
Speaker 1: into institutionalized racism. And they did it not because they

99
00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:34,960
Speaker 1: just woke up and said, hey, let's be jerks. They

100
00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,520
Speaker 1: did it because they were terrified the Access Powers had

101
00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:43,360
Speaker 1: brought chaos across the world, and so the US government

102
00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:47,640
Speaker 1: started saying, well, what about all the citizens of our

103
00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:51,839
Speaker 1: country who have heritage in Japan or Italy or Germany?

104
00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,880
Speaker 1: How American are they? Can we trust them? And as

105
00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:58,440
Speaker 1: a result, they started doing some really terrible things to

106
00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:02,000
Speaker 1: these innocent people. Yeah, I mean, unless they forget that,

107
00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:04,480
Speaker 1: like a big selling point of America is this whole

108
00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:08,480
Speaker 1: melting pots, you know, ideology like send us your poared,

109
00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:10,960
Speaker 1: you're tired, you're hungry, and all that, unless you know

110
00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:16,720
Speaker 1: their potential turn coats from from an enemy state like Japan,

111
00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:21,840
Speaker 1: Germany or Italy. They were worried that because of where

112
00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:26,920
Speaker 1: their sympathies might lie, um, that they could potentially be

113
00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:31,560
Speaker 1: a rot from within, you know, they could actually cause problems,

114
00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:35,840
Speaker 1: uh for the United States, um from from the ground,

115
00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,880
Speaker 1: you know, or like PA perhaps participate in plotting and

116
00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:41,760
Speaker 1: and all that kind of stuff. And certainly we know

117
00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:45,640
Speaker 1: things like that do happen, but it's almost always on

118
00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:49,960
Speaker 1: a pretty small, lone wolfie individualistic kind of scale. Correct

119
00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:51,600
Speaker 1: me if I'm wrong here, Ben, I'm wondering what your

120
00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:55,320
Speaker 1: thoughts are ye, if this was an overblown concern. Yeah,

121
00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:58,440
Speaker 1: the idea too was that it was it was rooted

122
00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:03,000
Speaker 1: in the assumption that these people, because of their because

123
00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:07,040
Speaker 1: of their heritage, would somehow be un American, even if

124
00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:11,120
Speaker 1: you know their grandparents were the folks who immigrated and

125
00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:15,480
Speaker 1: they knew nothing but like the Bronx, you know, or Manhattan.

126
00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:19,040
Speaker 1: So this all starts. I I do agree with you. Um,

127
00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:21,800
Speaker 1: they are worried about domestic terrorism, but they're kind of

128
00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:26,800
Speaker 1: attributing a larger conspiracy to something without proof because they're

129
00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,480
Speaker 1: based in a racism. Anyway, it all hits the fan

130
00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:33,040
Speaker 1: in ninety two or that's when the spark is lit.

131
00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:37,120
Speaker 1: There's a U. S. Troop carrier ship which is originally

132
00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:40,200
Speaker 1: called the S S. Normandy and it had been renamed

133
00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:44,760
Speaker 1: the U S S Lafayette. It catches fire and sinks

134
00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:50,120
Speaker 1: in the harbor in Manhattan, and the authorities believe this

135
00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:53,319
Speaker 1: may be sabotage, This may be the work of a sabotea,

136
00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:58,400
Speaker 1: a domestic terrorist. And so so the government says, you

137
00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:02,400
Speaker 1: know who, we got to check out those doc workers,

138
00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:05,120
Speaker 1: and then some other guy goes, yeah, hey, a lot

139
00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:08,400
Speaker 1: of them are Italian aren't they. So they started investigating,

140
00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:12,160
Speaker 1: and they came up with bub Kiss and they said, okay,

141
00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,280
Speaker 1: we need some experts on the ground here, We need

142
00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,720
Speaker 1: some we need some folks who understand the lay of

143
00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:22,760
Speaker 1: the land. And again, because of their prejudice, they immediately

144
00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:27,560
Speaker 1: went to not like an Italian American civic or community center. No,

145
00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:30,479
Speaker 1: they went to the mob. And that's why Lucky Luciano

146
00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:34,760
Speaker 1: was a big star today's show. That's right. Um Luciano

147
00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:38,679
Speaker 1: had immigrated to the United States UM and settled on

148
00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:43,120
Speaker 1: the Lower East Side of New York City, Manhattan, UM

149
00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:46,280
Speaker 1: at the age of ten uh, and very very early

150
00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:51,800
Speaker 1: on became a member of the notorious Five Points gang UM, which,

151
00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,880
Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken, is like that's the the I

152
00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:57,960
Speaker 1: guess escalation or I mean, I guess it would have

153
00:09:57,960 --> 00:09:59,880
Speaker 1: been exactly the same time as the Gangs of New

154
00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:04,280
Speaker 1: the scors Casey picture where they were in the nice

155
00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,000
Speaker 1: stovepipe hats. That would have been like the earliest iteration

156
00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:09,880
Speaker 1: of that mob or that that gang UM this you know,

157
00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,960
Speaker 1: I guess if he was born yeah, in the twelve

158
00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:14,640
Speaker 1: I don't know that was like in the eight like

159
00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,640
Speaker 1: early like late eighteen hundreds, I want to say, yeah,

160
00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:22,520
Speaker 1: the you're right. Yeah, the Five Points Gang originally started

161
00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:26,840
Speaker 1: off with Irish American members and it was in the

162
00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:30,920
Speaker 1: late nineteenth centuries, so late eighteen hundreds nailed it. So no,

163
00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:34,959
Speaker 1: So maybe as a child it would have been Yeah,

164
00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:37,840
Speaker 1: that lines up, doesn't it. Yeah, he might have had

165
00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:41,000
Speaker 1: himself a sovepipe hat, you know, and been rolling deep

166
00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:46,600
Speaker 1: with Daniel day Lewis and Leonardo DiCaprio type fellas, and uh,

167
00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:50,280
Speaker 1: you know, if I'm picturing a ten year old with

168
00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:54,040
Speaker 1: a stovepipe hat, I'm I'm picturing an animal crossing character.

169
00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:56,560
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna be honest with you. He probably you're

170
00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:00,240
Speaker 1: picturing that. It sounds delightful. Uh, sot if I've had

171
00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:02,240
Speaker 1: just kind of makes everything seeming It's like hard to

172
00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:05,240
Speaker 1: take a guy seriously wearing a skinny stovepipe hat. But

173
00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:07,240
Speaker 1: I think that's sort of what the the goal is.

174
00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:09,920
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, you underestimate me and then boom,

175
00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:13,079
Speaker 1: you get knifed. Yeah, maybe there's a practical thing. I mean,

176
00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:16,920
Speaker 1: think of the potential storage space anyway. Uh, we're pretty

177
00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:21,240
Speaker 1: sure that Luciano joins the gang, not because he's into

178
00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:25,960
Speaker 1: the esthetics or the habitashary. But more so, like many

179
00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:29,840
Speaker 1: young people, there aren't a lot of alternatives. Right, there's

180
00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:32,679
Speaker 1: a lot of discrimination in the community. And this stuff

181
00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:35,880
Speaker 1: still happens and leads to the formation of gangs in

182
00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,800
Speaker 1: the US and abroad today. Big things were happening in

183
00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:45,720
Speaker 1: the country at this time. Prohibition starts right the time

184
00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,840
Speaker 1: we've talked about on the show multiple times. It's back

185
00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:55,160
Speaker 1: when um uncle Sam had the cartoonishly daft idea to

186
00:11:55,960 --> 00:12:00,640
Speaker 1: make booze illegal. Uh. And then you know they paved

187
00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:06,160
Speaker 1: the way for unprecedented profits in organized crime. And you

188
00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:09,040
Speaker 1: know the government wasn't on it too anyway. So this

189
00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:12,920
Speaker 1: Proula Bishop was an active buffoonery, as well intentioned as

190
00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:15,520
Speaker 1: it might be. Uh, it was pretty much doomed to fail.

191
00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:19,280
Speaker 1: And this was a great time to be an organized crime. Right.

192
00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:21,760
Speaker 1: You've got a brand new income stream. The money is

193
00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:27,920
Speaker 1: rolling in, and Luciano in is recruited as a gunman

194
00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:34,959
Speaker 1: by Giuseppe mess Aria, otherwise known as Joe the Boss.

195
00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:39,920
Speaker 1: M hmm. That's an awkward nickname, though, isn't Joe the Boss. Yeah,

196
00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:42,439
Speaker 1: As as you would say, Ben in a burst of creativity,

197
00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:46,679
Speaker 1: it's a pretty self serving nickname. Wouldn't be surprised if

198
00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:49,560
Speaker 1: he had something to do with giving it. Oh, he's

199
00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,120
Speaker 1: just going around speakeasy's going. You know a lot of

200
00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:54,720
Speaker 1: people call me Joe the Boss, call me Joe the Boss.

201
00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:57,760
Speaker 1: I'll tell you was because I'm the boss. Oh that's

202
00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:01,640
Speaker 1: sad making your own nickname. Yeah. Um, but then so

203
00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:03,839
Speaker 1: we we well, you know, let's be fair, Joe the

204
00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:09,240
Speaker 1: Boss is not exactly top tier right mafia history. You know, Fodder,

205
00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,760
Speaker 1: I've never heard of Joe the Boss of you Max. Oh,

206
00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:14,640
Speaker 1: absolutely not. I've never heard of. But I do want

207
00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:16,080
Speaker 1: to make a shout out to one of my friends,

208
00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:20,000
Speaker 1: my friend Greg. He is known for his many attempts

209
00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,640
Speaker 1: of trying to give himself a nickname. And it's a move.

210
00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:27,240
Speaker 1: I'll give you that. And he's really come to your credit. So, like,

211
00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:28,520
Speaker 1: you know, there was one time he's hanging out with

212
00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:30,520
Speaker 1: me and my friend Phil and he's like, call me

213
00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:33,360
Speaker 1: Cougar and they'll call me a mountain line. It's like, well, man,

214
00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:34,840
Speaker 1: it sounds like you want to be called a cat,

215
00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:37,200
Speaker 1: so let's give be a cat name, like Mr Fussy. Pause.

216
00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:43,240
Speaker 1: Here's the thing though, with those nicknames. The rules work. Um,

217
00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:48,400
Speaker 1: the rules were counterintuitively in the criminal underground, Like if

218
00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:52,200
Speaker 1: you were ever unfortunate enough to be incarcerated, then you

219
00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:54,559
Speaker 1: need to know that the person with the most innocuous

220
00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:57,800
Speaker 1: sounding nickname is the most dangerous. There's some guy called

221
00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,040
Speaker 1: snake Bite might be a cool dude, you need to

222
00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:03,480
Speaker 1: watch out for the guy named Smurf. Don't talk to him,

223
00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:08,400
Speaker 1: sneak By. It's a big old, cuddly sweetie, cold blooded,

224
00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:12,360
Speaker 1: dead eyed killer. Uh. Or you know, sometimes the ones

225
00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:14,040
Speaker 1: you really have to look out for are the ones

226
00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:16,480
Speaker 1: that would never get blood on their hands or, as

227
00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:20,280
Speaker 1: they say in rap, never touched dope. Like Arnold Rothstein

228
00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:23,720
Speaker 1: played wonderfully one of my favorite performances in the whole

229
00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:27,400
Speaker 1: series in Boardwalk Empire by Michael Stolberg, Um, who we

230
00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,200
Speaker 1: know from a serious man and uh, he's also in

231
00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:32,360
Speaker 1: that new movie Bones at All, which looks looks really interesting.

232
00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:39,160
Speaker 1: I am interested in it. But Rothstein was incredibly key

233
00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:42,120
Speaker 1: figure in the early days of organized crime in the

234
00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:45,720
Speaker 1: United States. Um. And you know again just like running

235
00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:49,600
Speaker 1: all the the the grifts, you know, and really kind

236
00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:53,240
Speaker 1: of writing the rule book for how organized crime would

237
00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:56,280
Speaker 1: really play out, and like you know how the mafia

238
00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:00,000
Speaker 1: would essentially, um, you know, just create constant revenue streams

239
00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:04,400
Speaker 1: various sources. And he worked with Luciana, who was making

240
00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:08,600
Speaker 1: millions in the mid nineteen twenties bootlegging. Like you said,

241
00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:11,800
Speaker 1: then because of that genius idea, uncle Sam, how let's

242
00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:15,400
Speaker 1: make everything illegal. Everyone will just take it right, nobody,

243
00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:18,880
Speaker 1: They'll be fine. No, Instead, they opened up the black

244
00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:22,960
Speaker 1: market in a very very real way. So um. Rothstein, though,

245
00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:26,320
Speaker 1: was in fact murdered, which opened up a big old

246
00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:31,400
Speaker 1: vacancy in the in the crime world, which Luciano happily filled. Yes, yeah, Rothstein.

247
00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:35,280
Speaker 1: By the way, his nickname was the brain, uh and

248
00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:37,840
Speaker 1: he actually was from a pretty well to do family.

249
00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:42,080
Speaker 1: His older brother, who he always resented, became a rabbi,

250
00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:45,560
Speaker 1: so that was he was the like favorite child anyway. Yes,

251
00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:48,640
Speaker 1: you nailed it. It's you live by the crime, you

252
00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:53,080
Speaker 1: die by the crime. So goes Rothstein off stage, and

253
00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:57,000
Speaker 1: Luciano returns to work for Joe the Boss, who was

254
00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:59,240
Speaker 1: really the one filling the gap. Really mean, Luciana was

255
00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,280
Speaker 1: still sort of more of a trigger man. He wasn't

256
00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:07,120
Speaker 1: really you know, yeah exactly, And by this time our

257
00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:10,960
Speaker 1: buddy our by buddy Joe. I'm just laughing because so

258
00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:16,360
Speaker 1: it's just cartoonish. Uh. He has promoted himself in the

259
00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,880
Speaker 1: nickname game, and now he's walking around saying, you know

260
00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:24,200
Speaker 1: a lot of people call me Boss of Bosses. Yeah,

261
00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:26,920
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say this. He definitely got an honorable mention

262
00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:30,960
Speaker 1: and a creative writing class. Yeah, he got fair enough,

263
00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:33,800
Speaker 1: fair boss of that's like, you know, that's like some

264
00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:37,040
Speaker 1: Jesus Christ kind of stuff, you know, like King of Kings,

265
00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,280
Speaker 1: Lord of Lords and all that stuff. Um, boss of bosses,

266
00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,360
Speaker 1: Boss of bosses. Yeah, exactly, I'm I'm the boss boss.

267
00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:45,160
Speaker 1: That's a British thing. I like that one, just being

268
00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,240
Speaker 1: the boss boss. But at this point, the Boss of

269
00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:52,480
Speaker 1: Bosses um just decided it was time to clean house,

270
00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:56,560
Speaker 1: you know, to really make some room for his entrepreneurial

271
00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:59,800
Speaker 1: spirit to thrive. So he went to war, like you,

272
00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:03,080
Speaker 1: with a rival boss of Bosses, or the Duke as

273
00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:11,080
Speaker 1: he was known, Salvatore Maranzano. Maranzano. Yeah, and Luciano is

274
00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:15,879
Speaker 1: not a guy really given to a moral compass or

275
00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:21,240
Speaker 1: nor loyalty, so he sides with the Duke in this

276
00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:25,560
Speaker 1: crazy crime war and he helped set up the boss

277
00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:30,240
Speaker 1: of bosses for an assassination in ninety one, So Joe

278
00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:35,480
Speaker 1: the boss is murdered with the help of his own lieutenant.

279
00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:41,560
Speaker 1: Uh and before ends Luciano and his other colleagues, who

280
00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:45,720
Speaker 1: are now being called the Young Turks. They also kill

281
00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:52,119
Speaker 1: the Duke. And now they're they're saying there's a new um,

282
00:17:52,320 --> 00:18:04,040
Speaker 1: there's a new regime in the criminal underground. Maronzano's assassination

283
00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:11,040
Speaker 1: comes about because of a a gang from Murder Incorporated.

284
00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:14,640
Speaker 1: Shout out to jaw Rule uh And and no, you're

285
00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,880
Speaker 1: more familiar with Boardwalk Empire. Do they get into any

286
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:20,919
Speaker 1: of this stuff here? It escapes me at the moment.

287
00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:23,760
Speaker 1: You know that they cover a lot of ground, uh

288
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:26,480
Speaker 1: in a relatively tight you know, I think three or

289
00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,159
Speaker 1: four seasons. Um. So I can't quite remember, but I

290
00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:32,280
Speaker 1: do want to say, um, there is an actual brick

291
00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,639
Speaker 1: and mortar place and an associated website called the Mob

292
00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:40,760
Speaker 1: Museum National Museum of Organized Crime and Law Enforcement, which

293
00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:43,240
Speaker 1: we got a good bit of this um this research

294
00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:47,840
Speaker 1: from and it is in uh downtown Las Vegas. Such

295
00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,520
Speaker 1: a profile it did, Yeah, and it tells me a

296
00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:52,960
Speaker 1: little bit of sense. I definitely want to check. I

297
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,120
Speaker 1: think I'm actually going to Vegas for the very very

298
00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:59,400
Speaker 1: very first time, um, in a couple of months, definitely

299
00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,000
Speaker 1: planned to make a trip there. I'm finding all this

300
00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:07,159
Speaker 1: out in real time, folks. So uh yeah, well then

301
00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,000
Speaker 1: let's not spill the beans yet because surprise, surprise, I'm

302
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:12,000
Speaker 1: pretty sure you're gonna be going to and we might

303
00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:14,399
Speaker 1: be doing a little something about the very topic we're

304
00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:19,600
Speaker 1: discussing right now. Yeah, gosh, folks, it's so hard for

305
00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:22,520
Speaker 1: us to like, we're guys who literally talked for a job.

306
00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:26,800
Speaker 1: So we're so weirdly proud of ourselves when we can

307
00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:30,840
Speaker 1: keep a projects secret. Um. Yeah, this is a great

308
00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:35,840
Speaker 1: teaser though, So all right, Luciado, as a result of

309
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:39,520
Speaker 1: all these assassinations, Luciado comes in as as you would

310
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:43,920
Speaker 1: um kind of foreshadowed earlier Nol to fill the vacuum

311
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:50,680
Speaker 1: of leadership. And he loves organizing. He likes having meetings.

312
00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:53,640
Speaker 1: He's one of those guys you know, he has parties

313
00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:57,320
Speaker 1: and stuff, yeh, scrap booking parties even you know, the

314
00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:00,720
Speaker 1: real stickler for the details and for in a paste.

315
00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:04,919
Speaker 1: And he had the funny and sheets of yeah, and

316
00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:07,600
Speaker 1: those one of those plastic sheets acetate, Oh yeah, and

317
00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:09,520
Speaker 1: the stuff that you put on top of the pages

318
00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:13,040
Speaker 1: so the pictures don't get ruffled and uh. But he

319
00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:16,960
Speaker 1: was also, of course still uh into crime, and he

320
00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:22,840
Speaker 1: continued this cooperative, this loose confederacy called the Five Families,

321
00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:26,000
Speaker 1: the Committee of the Five Families, and this would go

322
00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:29,879
Speaker 1: on to control all the East Coast criminal rackets for

323
00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:35,880
Speaker 1: decades and decades. But Luciano wanted a little more credibility.

324
00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:38,600
Speaker 1: He said, I don't want to call myself boss of bosses.

325
00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,720
Speaker 1: It's kind of sad and lame to go around telling

326
00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:45,639
Speaker 1: people to call me that. Yeah, just call me the

327
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:49,160
Speaker 1: Chairman of the board. And now we're gonna have national

328
00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,600
Speaker 1: meetings and we're gonna organize this. We're gonna get a

329
00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:57,320
Speaker 1: spreadsheet involved. Let's avoid the blood and let's make money together.

330
00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:01,160
Speaker 1: And it's funny too. Speaking of Vegue, you know who

331
00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:05,400
Speaker 1: went on to borrow that nickname? Who Frank Sinatra? Oh,

332
00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:08,359
Speaker 1: that's right, he was. He was referred to as chairman

333
00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,960
Speaker 1: of the board. Yeah. I don't know if he ever

334
00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:15,399
Speaker 1: directly murdered anybody, but I wouldn't be surprised with his

335
00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:19,240
Speaker 1: connections if he maybe had some people. He also did

336
00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,120
Speaker 1: some pretty dastardly stuff. He was the guy who he's

337
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:24,399
Speaker 1: a dirty dirty he's a dirty boy. He had a

338
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,359
Speaker 1: he had a quotation where he said, it's amazing what

339
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:31,400
Speaker 1: abroad will do for a buck or something like that. Yeah,

340
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:38,119
Speaker 1: and he wasn't talking about choreography. So so yeah, this okay.

341
00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:44,040
Speaker 1: So Luciano is still continuing criminal enterprises, but he's trying

342
00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:50,080
Speaker 1: to make it more corporate essentially, And he also immediately

343
00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:52,280
Speaker 1: gets a target on his back because he's a very

344
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,000
Speaker 1: public leader of a group that does very illegal stuff,

345
00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:02,359
Speaker 1: and law enforcement has their eye on him. Specifically, a

346
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:07,879
Speaker 1: young prosecutor up and comer in New York named Thomas Dewey. Yes,

347
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,880
Speaker 1: and Dewey and his assistant who was an African American

348
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:16,199
Speaker 1: woman that named Eunice Carter. Uh, they were seeing some things.

349
00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:18,840
Speaker 1: They were they were making some observations, and they were

350
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:23,000
Speaker 1: finding them pretty suss in terms of the sex workers

351
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,719
Speaker 1: who were being arrested that they you know, that they

352
00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:29,760
Speaker 1: were seeing filtering through the justice system. We're being represented

353
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:35,719
Speaker 1: by the same bondsman and lawyers that worked for Luciana.

354
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:41,679
Speaker 1: I wonder what us about This sounds like a conspiracy

355
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:47,280
Speaker 1: to me. Uh yeah, So they they said, all right,

356
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,520
Speaker 1: let's strike while the iron is hot. We're going to

357
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,600
Speaker 1: do a massive raid. In ninety six, Carter and Dewey

358
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:58,840
Speaker 1: raid tons of brothels throughout New York. They arrest more

359
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,800
Speaker 1: than a hundred people and a lot and they set

360
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:05,840
Speaker 1: bail pretty high. Of the people they arrest, most for women,

361
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:10,560
Speaker 1: and quite a few of them cannot afford the ten

362
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 1: thousand dollar bail ten thousand dollars in nineteen thirty six,

363
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:19,000
Speaker 1: one inflation calculated. Yeah, oh my god, can't we boot

364
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:26,480
Speaker 1: boom bot boop. Ten thousand dollars in nineteen thirty six

365
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:32,640
Speaker 1: is worth two hundred and fourteen thousand, three d dollars

366
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,560
Speaker 1: and sixty eight cents? Can we just say too. I'm

367
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,879
Speaker 1: not trying to high horse or soapbox here, but a

368
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,120
Speaker 1: lot of these, you know, these types of prohibitions were

369
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:46,800
Speaker 1: based in sort of puritanical Christian morals, and there's all

370
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:50,600
Speaker 1: this morality, you know, mongering or whatever. And uh, I

371
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 1: think it's absurd that sex work is still illegal and

372
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:56,399
Speaker 1: in many parts of of the world, you know, I

373
00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:00,080
Speaker 1: mean it's uh, it's absolutely something that's based in this

374
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,920
Speaker 1: kind of evangelical you know bent sex work is real work,

375
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,920
Speaker 1: you know, what I mean, and we have yeah, and

376
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 1: um to pretend otherwise is just willfully misleading. And also,

377
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 1: you know, too again without soapboxing too much, we have

378
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 1: to admit the reality of this which continues today. A

379
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 1: lot of these people who are being arrested are victims themselves.

380
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,399
Speaker 1: They've been forced into rights, right, They're not doing it

381
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:33,879
Speaker 1: for funzies. And so some of the people who get arrested,

382
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 1: they flip and they give information to the prosecution team

383
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:43,119
Speaker 1: that leads to Lucky Luciano having an unlucky arrest and

384
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:47,720
Speaker 1: he gets uh taken a trial in Nix on June

385
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 1: sixth of that year. He's convicted on no less than

386
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:57,199
Speaker 1: sixty two separate charges of compulsory prostitution, which lands him

387
00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:01,119
Speaker 1: thirty to fifty years in the state pen. And he

388
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 1: can't get out of it. He can't buy his way

389
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:06,880
Speaker 1: out of it. So after after he gets the message

390
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 1: and he sees the writing on the wall, he turns

391
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 1: over leadership of the National Commission of Mafioso to a

392
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,119
Speaker 1: guy named Frank Costello. Also, I just want to kind

393
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 1: of jump in here real quick and point out that

394
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,640
Speaker 1: we have an upcoming episode where we're going to talk

395
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,160
Speaker 1: about Thomas Dowey a little bit more and a part

396
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 1: of history that he is an exclusive group with that

397
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 1: is not a group you want to be part of.

398
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,879
Speaker 1: Let's to say yes, and artfully done teas by superproducer

399
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:39,200
Speaker 1: Max Williams, especially because off Mike. I don't know about

400
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 1: you know, but I was thinking, oh right, oh do

401
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:46,360
Speaker 1: we Oh right, yeah, right, yeah, do we? We did

402
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,399
Speaker 1: that one? I remember that now we It is not

403
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 1: an episode that we have recorded. Jetted is one that

404
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 1: is in the work. So it was nice to realize

405
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 1: that we haven't completely lost our minds during these quote

406
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 1: unquote down times. But moving on, We've got a big

407
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 1: high water mark moments in history and in this story

408
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 1: and just you know, talking about looming large Pearl Harbor

409
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 1: heard of it seeing the movie not very good, but

410
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 1: the events, you know, absolutely was a trigger obviously for

411
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:21,639
Speaker 1: our intervention into the war and for further anti um

412
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 1: foreigner kind of mentality in the United States and the

413
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 1: idea of truly cracking down on these perceived outsiders because

414
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 1: of what they might be able to accomplish, you know,

415
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 1: in secret communications with their you know, their masters across

416
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:41,399
Speaker 1: the pond. Yeah this okay, So we're going back to

417
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 1: we're picking up that thread we laid down the beginning

418
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 1: about the US government and this this is what we

419
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 1: mean when we say this story is medi We're like,

420
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 1: we're cinematically cutting into all these different slices of American history.

421
00:26:55,680 --> 00:27:01,119
Speaker 1: You're absolutely right, noal Uh, people were trying into play

422
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,119
Speaker 1: the spy game. Right. It's its own separate theater of

423
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 1: every war. And the o n I Office of Naval

424
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:13,159
Speaker 1: Intelligence knew that war was coming, and by the mid

425
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:17,119
Speaker 1: nineteen thirties they had started building up this core of

426
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 1: reserve officers they called the Naval Intelligence Volunteer Service or KNIVES.

427
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 1: These folks, we're not your typical shaking bake soldiers or

428
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 1: your typical enlisted members of the Navy. They were lawyers,

429
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 1: they worked with the newspapers. They might be p i s.

430
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 1: They might be executives at shipping companies. Uh, they might

431
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,959
Speaker 1: be linguists. Just they were kind of assembling um like

432
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 1: a heist crew for intelligence that they they have their specialties, uh,

433
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 1: and then they were given training. They were not paid.

434
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 1: In NIVE there were five hundred of them, but by

435
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 1: nineteen forty there were almost three thousand, and they started

436
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,879
Speaker 1: getting their cards pulled they were called up to active duty.

437
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 1: Also a shout out to the Naval Criminal Investigative Services

438
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,920
Speaker 1: History Project h and c i S A history project

439
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,360
Speaker 1: dot org or n c i S A history dot org.

440
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 1: What a specific uh organization. I love it, Yeah, exactly,

441
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 1: our researcher says to Zach Uh. Doctor Zach found this

442
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 1: wonderful article by Rear Admiral Tom Brooks, retired U S.

443
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 1: Navy UM that really goes into detail about the naval

444
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,919
Speaker 1: intelligence connection with the mafia during World War Two. So

445
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 1: this is like fabulous um research material that if anyone

446
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 1: wants to read the full thing, it's a PDF that

447
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 1: you can get online and that we highly recommend you doing. So. Yeah,

448
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 1: and big thanks of course to April Brooks. So in

449
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 1: the beginning of nineteen forty two, as any World War

450
00:28:54,840 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 1: Two enthusiast knows, German U boats were hammering the supply

451
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 1: lines of the Allied forces, and in just January of

452
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 1: that year, Access submarines had sunk twenty different Allied vessels,

453
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 1: including a tanker, and the tanker was a very scary

454
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 1: shot across the bow because that thing was taken down

455
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 1: just sixty miles off the Long Island coast, and people

456
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 1: were saying, how can German submarines, German submarines get all

457
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 1: the way across the pond and and operate on the

458
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 1: coastline of the United States. Somebody called those naval intelligence dudes,

459
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,959
Speaker 1: and they said, here's what we think is happening. We

460
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 1: think that there are some very unpatriotic people on the

461
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 1: East coast and they're using their American fishing vessels to

462
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 1: resupply these submarines somewhere near Long Islands. These guys might

463
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 1: be ex prohibition folks who you know, lost all their

464
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 1: money when the US got over prohibition, or it might

465
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 1: be a huge conspiracy of more or less like spies

466
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 1: sleeper agents all around the Port of New York. So

467
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 1: they call in a guy named Captain Roscoe McFall, who

468
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 1: is a naval veteran. Uh. He has been with the

469
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: Navy for forty years. He knows his stuff. He's the

470
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 1: chief intelligence officer for the third Naval District, and that's

471
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 1: a huge region that's New Jersey, New York, in Connecticut altogether. Yeah, exactly.

472
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 1: So the Captain was very much in need of taking

473
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 1: quick action, uh, in order for the Allied war effort

474
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 1: to be a success. On February two, fire engines responded

475
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 1: to a massive blaze at Pure eight eight in Manhattan.

476
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 1: This was a fire and arson. Let's call it. Call

477
00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 1: it what it is that's destroyed the French bill. Uh.

478
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 1: Super Liner is what they referred to as the Normandy. Uh.

479
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 1: And this is something that you know couldn't be couldn't

480
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: be ignored, both physically and uh and geopolitically. Yeah yeah,

481
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 1: and uh we we don't have to do the sound effect.

482
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 1: But for everybody wondering, five million dollars in two is

483
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 1: worth more than ninety one million dollars today. A boop

484
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 1: a boop, indeed, and uh not the kind of boop

485
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 1: you want to get. Right. So, the fire that takes

486
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 1: down the Normandy, people are jumping to and they're trying

487
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 1: to not just contain the fire but also save the

488
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 1: port and the other ships. Right. So the fire boats

489
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 1: are dumping hundreds of thousands of gallons of water onto

490
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 1: the Superliner, and they mess up because they put so

491
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 1: much water on it that the ship goes into a list.

492
00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:00,040
Speaker 1: So it gets wonky by about thirty degrees. Everybody a

493
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 1: looking is panicking, right, Uh. And this is a huge,

494
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 1: huge l for the American forces. This vessel could carry

495
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 1: ten thousand troops. It could go across the Atlantic in

496
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 1: just four days and less than a week. So of

497
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: course the Navy says, al right, somebody else knew how

498
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 1: important this ship was. We think it was probably the Nazis.

499
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 1: Our guy, Captain Roscoe says, no. Look, I read the

500
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 1: FBI file and the FBI's explanation says this was an accident,

501
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 1: a spark from a blowtorch. I don't buy it. This

502
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 1: is also a symbolic attack. It makes us look weak,

503
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 1: and we need to figure out what's really going on here.

504
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: So Captain Roscoe gets those Navy operatives in playing clothes.

505
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 1: They're not trusted to sailors. And I really like the

506
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:59,479
Speaker 1: way that Gregory Padutto describes it at Warfare History Network.

507
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 1: I think we've both love this. We'll just read you

508
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 1: the quote here, playing clothes, Navy operatives descended upon the

509
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 1: New York docs seeking information with their best Jimmy Cagney impersonations.

510
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 1: Ivy League educated naval officers crept into the raucous haunts

511
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 1: frequented by long shoreman. This stevend oors met the agents

512
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 1: with a threatening brick wall of silence. I like the

513
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 1: Cagne impersonation for some reason. I do. I also love

514
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 1: the the brick wall of silence. But they made you

515
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 1: sit in in uh in elementary school. People got to

516
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 1: rauc us. You know, Okay, we're we're gonna we're gonna

517
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,719
Speaker 1: do the brick wall of silence children. And this is uh,

518
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 1: this is a strange thing for us uh to to

519
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 1: think about. Right, this is an intelligence operation now, and

520
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 1: these guys who might be a little divided by class

521
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 1: because they're from the upper crust and they're trying to

522
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 1: talk to doc workers. These guys don't get immediate success,

523
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 1: right because the officers are very much outside of this culture.

524
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:07,960
Speaker 1: And a lot of these ship workers are just instinctively

525
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 1: ducking to trust someone they ate, don't know and be

526
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 1: is wearing a uniform. It doesn't matter who they are.

527
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 1: We're just rejecting that authority. And the longshoreman love that

528
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 1: job title. But shore the longest time, I didn't know

529
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 1: what I meant, but you always heard people using it

530
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 1: to refer to kind of a roughneck, you know, like

531
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 1: someone that's a little bit uh rough around the edges

532
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 1: that might swear a little bit perhaps cat call a

533
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 1: lady um, But now it does refer to individuals to

534
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 1: load and unload ships. And the term it's sort of

535
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: like a shortening, I guess of along the shore. There

536
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 1: are folks who hang out along the shore and uh,

537
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 1: you know, the technology obviously has changed over the years

538
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 1: to render them a little bit less you know, crucial.

539
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 1: But it used to be they would even like have

540
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 1: these poles and like pull the boats in closer than

541
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:55,840
Speaker 1: unload them and all that stuff. Yeah, and this is

542
00:34:55,960 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 1: the season of the wire talking about talking about longshoreman

543
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 1: in Baltimore, and the mob really does control this industry,

544
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 1: these longshoreman. Uh, and the Mob has given the green

545
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 1: light to these guys to beat the snot out of

546
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 1: people who are asking too many questions a reporter down

547
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:21,359
Speaker 1: at the docks, you know, better better walk right, as

548
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 1: they say, a midnight special. Indeed. And so because you know,

549
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 1: the the idea of the mob controlling the longshoreman it

550
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 1: you probably put this together cells or you've you've seen

551
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 1: or read about it. So they could steel things. Oh,

552
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 1: it is literally the the entry way into the world

553
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 1: of goods, you know, coming in and uh, you know

554
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 1: it's open fell off the back of a truck, that

555
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 1: whole expression, you know, or out of a boat, and

556
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 1: they would do it in such a way where it wouldn't,

557
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,279
Speaker 1: you know, raise so much suspicion. So it had to

558
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:56,759
Speaker 1: be done kind of in an organized fashion, and that

559
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 1: was controlled by by the mob. And they had a

560
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 1: they had a port folio of pursuits regarding the ports

561
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 1: and shipping, because you could also cooperate with UH, some

562
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 1: third party to hold a shipment out of port right

563
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 1: and screw somebody else's business over. You could force people

564
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,720
Speaker 1: to pay protection money right to make sure their stuff

565
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 1: doesn't fall off the back of the proverbial truck, because

566
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:24,720
Speaker 1: you're making money hand over fist, is what we're saying.

567
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 1: And the Navy quickly realizes that they cannot infiltrate this.

568
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:33,360
Speaker 1: They're just they're not doing it the right way, and

569
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 1: they may not have the tools to do so because

570
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 1: the American mafia runs the harbor and we had this

571
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 1: is something from Warfare History Network. Oh and I warrant

572
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 1: officer named Maurice Kelly talked about this. UH talked about

573
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 1: this with the benefit of retrospect, and this is a

574
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:57,839
Speaker 1: pretty pretty blunt description of what they were dealing with.

575
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,840
Speaker 1: That's right, and he said this only the American mafia

576
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 1: claimed an utter dominance of the Duck. Union officials and

577
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,399
Speaker 1: people in illegal operations along the waterfront had as much

578
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 1: influence with conditions on the Duck as the shipping people themselves,

579
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,399
Speaker 1: and in many cases, to your point, been more. Um So,

580
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:20,919
Speaker 1: the Navy saw this as a as a point of opportunity,

581
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:23,720
Speaker 1: you know, like if we play nice with the mob,

582
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:26,879
Speaker 1: then they can give us insider information that will help

583
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 1: us in our efforts, you know, to uh to root

584
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 1: out the rats, as I guess there were a lesser evil,

585
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 1: right kind of ends justify the means. It's one of

586
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,319
Speaker 1: those things where you say, okay, this is temporary arrangements,

587
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:42,239
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. We're you, We're gonna help you,

588
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 1: You're gonna help us, and then you know, when all

589
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 1: this is over, we're probably gonna go back to being

590
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 1: bitter enemies. You know, exactly exactly. It's uh, it's the

591
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 1: way we deal with Jonathan Strickland, correct. So so, oh man,

592
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,479
Speaker 1: it was a bit of a crime lord of of

593
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:01,439
Speaker 1: of of of annoyance himself, you know what I mean. Yeah,

594
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,799
Speaker 1: oh man, I gotta love him though, because you know

595
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 1: he's unapologetic. You don't have to well, he just goes in,

596
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 1: he commits, so so yes, strange bedfellows. Indeed, the Navy

597
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 1: is weighing this moral quaundry, but not very long. And

598
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 1: you can understand their calculus because they're saying, we don't

599
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,399
Speaker 1: want to be the people who were in charge when

600
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 1: the next super liner goes down, when the next vessel

601
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 1: is attacked, and we all know we were too Pollyanna

602
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 1: to really solve the problem. So they say, all right,

603
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:42,360
Speaker 1: we're gonna try to just swallow our pride for a second,

604
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:44,719
Speaker 1: work with the mob because we have to fight a

605
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 1: greater evil, right, And they can make a good appeal

606
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:50,280
Speaker 1: to the mob too, because it's like, hey, you guys,

607
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 1: things that are bad for the US might also be

608
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:55,880
Speaker 1: bad for your bottom line and that's what you care about.

609
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:59,719
Speaker 1: So yeah, it was. It was a very quid pro

610
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:01,880
Speaker 1: oh kind of situation and they had to kind of

611
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 1: make the sales pitch uh to the mob, but you know,

612
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:14,720
Speaker 1: the sort of saw they sort of saw the benefit. Yeah,

613
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 1: this is okay, this is this is where it gets

614
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 1: very strange. So they figure it out, we don't know

615
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 1: what that boardroom or that media room looks like. But

616
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:27,279
Speaker 1: eventually they can see they're gonna have to contact the mob,

617
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:31,279
Speaker 1: just like you said, Noel. But this guy, Lucky Luciano

618
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 1: has has been sent up the river, and there are

619
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 1: a lot of people who are trying to run things

620
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 1: at this point, you know, in addition to Costello. So

621
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 1: there's this guy named Joseph Lanza. His friends call him Socks,

622
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:55,840
Speaker 1: like like the Clinton's cat. Yes, the Clintons cat is

623
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 1: named after Joseph. To your point, Ben, I bet this

624
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 1: guy was an absolute psychopath with a name like that

625
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:07,240
Speaker 1: to have been, you know, like they call him socks

626
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 1: because he, you know, cuts your feet off. I don't

627
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 1: know why did they Hey, why they call him socks? Pretty?

628
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 1: You never find out now, use you're just a big

629
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 1: fan of fancy socks, you know, and you are those

630
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 1: garter those men's garter things that hold your socks up

631
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:26,880
Speaker 1: gangsters did. In those days. It was of the fashion.

632
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 1: It was so weird. Having your socks tall was way

633
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:32,920
Speaker 1: more important back then. A Yeah, I don't know if

634
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:35,279
Speaker 1: I would. You know, that's one I don't miss. I

635
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 1: think it was just more of an era of tailored suits,

636
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: and that often meant like the pants, the height of

637
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 1: the pants were a little bit shorter, you know, that

638
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 1: was the style, so you would see the sock. You'd

639
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:47,439
Speaker 1: be more likely to see the sock. Yeah. I love

640
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 1: a tailored suit though, that unreservedly. So this guy Socks,

641
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 1: we can tell you the real reason for his name.

642
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: And it's not as funny as it's not as good

643
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 1: as our ideas. Just to be honest, Uh, not blowing smoke.

644
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 1: I'm just objectively, we have better pitches. His real the

645
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:12,279
Speaker 1: real origin of his name Socks comes from his insane

646
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:16,720
Speaker 1: fighting ability. He's like a one punch knockout dude. And

647
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:22,759
Speaker 1: he oversees Manhattan's Fulton Fish Market for his buddy, Lucky Luciano.

648
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 1: And because Lucky Luciano is getting locked up for decades,

649
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 1: an assistant district attorney named Murray Gurfein and uh the lawyer,

650
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 1: the mob lawyer for old Joe's Joey Socks. They get

651
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 1: together and they say, Hey, maybe this is our guy

652
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 1: that we approach about helping us fight for America. Maybe

653
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:49,319
Speaker 1: we can appeal to his patriotism, maybe we can pay him.

654
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:51,839
Speaker 1: Let's just let's see, let's figure something out because we

655
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 1: think it's an opportune time. That's so funny, man, I

656
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:58,920
Speaker 1: think I'm pretty sure. Correct me if I'm wrong. Listeners. Uh,

657
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:02,840
Speaker 1: there's a character in the Prano's named Joey Pants. I

658
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 1: love it. He would have he would have been right

659
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:08,399
Speaker 1: at home with Joey socks. And ah, God, we jumped

660
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 1: the gun with our conjecture about the sock nickname. But

661
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 1: still it's easy to mistake socks the back of the day.

662
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 1: You know, I guess I sack you in the jar

663
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 1: or whatever. But still I think it was ambiguous enough

664
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:25,840
Speaker 1: to to to warrant our theory about you know good,

665
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,320
Speaker 1: our ideas from good. We should be in charge of

666
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 1: board nicknames. We should we have a chairman of the

667
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:33,880
Speaker 1: Board of Nicknames. Um so, Yes, this is Fulton Fish Market,

668
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 1: which is in fact an active fish market but also

669
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 1: a hotbed of illegal activity. So around midnight on Mar

670
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:44,440
Speaker 1: uh there was a bit of a huddle on a bench,

671
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,879
Speaker 1: a bench huddle, gotta love those uptown in a park

672
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 1: called Riverside Park, lovely Park, to colude to form a

673
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 1: literal conspiracy. The Naval Office of Intelligence or sorry, the

674
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 1: Office of Naval Intelligence. The O and I they needed themselves,

675
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:06,919
Speaker 1: a rat, an informant, someone from the inside. You could

676
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:10,280
Speaker 1: feed them information you know that they might be getting

677
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:13,720
Speaker 1: from the docks. You know, you hear things along the docks.

678
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 1: People are coming from far away lands oftentimes and um

679
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,799
Speaker 1: bearing tales of their travels, and sometimes there might be

680
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:24,400
Speaker 1: a name, perhaps a little detail, something that was overheard.

681
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:27,279
Speaker 1: Who knows. Yeah, keep your eyes and your ears open.

682
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:30,840
Speaker 1: Be discreet, and they're very clear. They say, look, we

683
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 1: understand that we're usually on different sides of the game.

684
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:40,800
Speaker 1: We're not going to give you immunity for any criminal

685
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 1: activity that may or may not be happening at the docks.

686
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:47,759
Speaker 1: We're not gonna pay a ton of money. We're appealing

687
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:52,399
Speaker 1: to your patriotism. We can agree Nazis are bad for business.

688
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 1: Same with those fascists. Bro same with the fascist don't

689
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:58,839
Speaker 1: stock me. These are just the facts. And a week

690
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:02,880
Speaker 1: later Box goes uh and meets with the commander of

691
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 1: the Office of Naval Intelligence. And according to the records

692
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:09,719
Speaker 1: you can find PDFs of this, Lanza tells the O

693
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 1: and I commander, you let me know where you want

694
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 1: the contacts made or what you want, and I'll carry on.

695
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:18,920
Speaker 1: And this marks the beginning of what would be called

696
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:26,399
Speaker 1: Operation Underworld. Ah, let's show his Operation Underwear that our

697
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:34,320
Speaker 1: ideas hit us up for for name for nicknaming uh people, mobsters, criminals,

698
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 1: regular folks were oh yeah or um a secret undercover operations. Um.

699
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 1: So this was a good thing. This is a very

700
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:46,360
Speaker 1: good thing. Um. Lanza seems to be willing to play

701
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 1: ball and um this again. And not only are our

702
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:53,239
Speaker 1: dock workers dealing with you know, folks coming in on

703
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 1: these vessels, they're also dealing with the truck drivers. You're

704
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 1: the teamsters. He really was this kind of hub, you know.

705
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:02,799
Speaker 1: So with all of this, this network of of informants,

706
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 1: essentially it was not just one, it was the whole shebang. Um.

707
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:10,919
Speaker 1: It kept the O and I fully informed about any

708
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 1: you know, odds and ends that came in on fishing

709
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 1: vessels for example, like you know, flot some and jets,

710
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 1: some bits of things that were found floating out in

711
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:22,400
Speaker 1: the and the ocean, stuff like airplane scraps or perhaps

712
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:26,320
Speaker 1: even human remains, um, you know, or or like flares

713
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 1: or whatever. So this is stuff that they could use

714
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:30,840
Speaker 1: to literally kind of get the lay of the land

715
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:34,360
Speaker 1: in terms of what flyovers you know, who might be

716
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 1: spying perhaps, or folks maybe encroaching, you know, on our territory,

717
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:42,440
Speaker 1: because you know, Pearl Harbor really knocked us out of

718
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:45,360
Speaker 1: that complacency in terms of like not on our soil.

719
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:47,640
Speaker 1: This is never gonna happen here. These are things that

720
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 1: happened to other countries. Now now the rules have changed

721
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 1: a hundred and it's hard to really understand the extremity

722
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:02,640
Speaker 1: of this situation, right unless you were there, because these

723
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:05,360
Speaker 1: were people very much working with the enemy, and folks

724
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 1: on every side of the equation had a lot of

725
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:14,799
Speaker 1: skepticism about this, even lands as people were worried that

726
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 1: he had turned They said, look, you say you're supporting

727
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:20,600
Speaker 1: the war effort. I get it. Nazis are bad for business,

728
00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:22,800
Speaker 1: But how do I know you're not working with the

729
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:26,319
Speaker 1: d A. Didjam me up? It's a good question, like

730
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:29,320
Speaker 1: like like long term, big picture, right, Okay, so we

731
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 1: made this handshakes gentleman's agreements, and I guess you said

732
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 1: they didn't give them immunity though, right, that was clear exactly,

733
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 1: But they're not necessarily Yeah, that's why we're right, because

734
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 1: they are kind of observing them. Their whole enterprise, their

735
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:48,360
Speaker 1: whole operation. By virtue of them participating in this network

736
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 1: of informants, it acknowledges the existence of said informants instead

737
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:56,880
Speaker 1: kind of participation in all of this, uh, this dock activity.

738
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,480
Speaker 1: So that's a weird one, isn't it. It is it is.

739
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 1: It's definitely not a sustainable situation. And everybody realizes that

740
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 1: in the world of intelligence, one of the biggest things

741
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:11,719
Speaker 1: to learn is not always you know the information you're targeting,

742
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 1: it's the ways in which that information is acquired and disseminated. Right,

743
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 1: how it's not necessarily what you know all the time,

744
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 1: it's how you learned it. And giving the keys to

745
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:27,719
Speaker 1: that machine over to the U. S. Navy, that's it's

746
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:31,719
Speaker 1: not a good look anyway. Also, let's mention right Lucky Luciano,

747
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:36,360
Speaker 1: Luciano family, his crew, they love socks like socks is

748
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 1: so much fun. He gets us, you know, discount off

749
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:44,440
Speaker 1: of off the fish that fellow let me is amazing.

750
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 1: But the other four crime families are annoyed a f

751
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:53,800
Speaker 1: by this guy. So if they if the Navy wants

752
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 1: to really get in behind the curtain here, they have

753
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:00,759
Speaker 1: to work with those other four families. So they need

754
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:05,960
Speaker 1: the approval of a guy named Albert Anastasia. His street

755
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 1: name is High Lord Execution or Oh okay, I kind

756
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:15,919
Speaker 1: of feel like that one probably was earned. I don't

757
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:18,280
Speaker 1: think that the innocu I don't think this guy was

758
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:21,400
Speaker 1: was a squish mellow. Okay, I think this guy, you

759
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:26,359
Speaker 1: know what I mean? Yeah, Lord High it's it's it's

760
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:29,359
Speaker 1: it's got smacks of royalty, doesn't it. You know, these

761
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:32,879
Speaker 1: guys really wanted to be aristocrat. They really did. Yeah,

762
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 1: it's very interesting. Yeah, this guy is so hashtag no

763
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:39,480
Speaker 1: chill that even socks doesn't want to mess with him

764
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 1: now he does in socks Um was very aware, as

765
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:49,280
Speaker 1: was imagined anyone in his circle, of Anastasia's ruthless demeanor,

766
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:54,920
Speaker 1: you know, his his absolute explosive you know, violent rages

767
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 1: he might fly into, and um, the fact that he

768
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 1: had a bit of an itchy trigger fingy he was.

769
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:06,920
Speaker 1: He was not one to hold back lead m I

770
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 1: like it poetry m m hm. Lanza. Also, I just

771
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:15,880
Speaker 1: didn't have enough juice to kind of like bridge the gap,

772
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:19,400
Speaker 1: you know, in terms of the divide between these different

773
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 1: ethnic groups. You had your Irish gangsters, the controlled Hell's Kitchen,

774
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 1: which is like kind of a it's sort of adjacent

775
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:28,399
Speaker 1: to like where a lot of the Broadway theaters are.

776
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:30,279
Speaker 1: It's not terribly it's sort of like the next kind

777
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:32,839
Speaker 1: of area over. We spent a decent amount of time

778
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 1: there in our work travels in the past. Um, so

779
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:40,320
Speaker 1: that areas under control of the Irish. Uh, this around

780
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:43,840
Speaker 1: the Hudson River piers, which included again we've got piers,

781
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 1: we've got railway terminals, we've got you know, warehouses and

782
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 1: things like that. So in order to for the Navy

783
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 1: to be able to acquire and organize the West Side docks,

784
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 1: they had to get cooperation now from the Irish, which is,

785
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:01,320
Speaker 1: you know, the Irish and the Alliens don't get along,

786
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 1: so they don't really have suction within their already existing agreement,

787
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:09,799
Speaker 1: you know, with the with the Italian mafia. So they

788
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:13,320
Speaker 1: already have a lot of what you would call stakeholders

789
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:17,360
Speaker 1: in corporate America, right, and the stakeholders don't all get along.

790
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 1: But why can't we all just get along? Why can't

791
00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 1: what I ask, you know, especially if we're trying to

792
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:26,040
Speaker 1: fight Nazis. So they're gonna make it work, right there,

793
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:30,400
Speaker 1: fighting for a greater good, so on June fourth, Lanski

794
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 1: and a Lucky Luciano's mob lawyer Moses Pola cough that's

795
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:40,720
Speaker 1: a cool name, uh, and an old Socks. They traveled

796
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:44,160
Speaker 1: a Great Meadow and they decided they're gonna plan their moment.

797
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:48,040
Speaker 1: This is a big win at work for a buddy

798
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:52,279
Speaker 1: Socks because Lucky Luciano says, you have my permission to

799
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:55,080
Speaker 1: use my name on the streets, so now you can.

800
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:59,719
Speaker 1: You know, he can go around and oversee the whole operations. Say, hey,

801
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:03,920
Speaker 1: I am speaking on behalf of Luciano, of Boss Luciano,

802
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:07,719
Speaker 1: so if you hear something from me, you need to

803
00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 1: treat it like it came from him. I want to

804
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:13,440
Speaker 1: know more about this Great Meadow. This sounds like it's

805
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:15,719
Speaker 1: just like a Camp David kind of situation. Is this

806
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:18,759
Speaker 1: where they're going on like a retreat, you know, to

807
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 1: do team building exercises and and plan their attack. Great

808
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:31,000
Speaker 1: Meadow is the maximum security prison where Lucky Luciano is held.

809
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:34,280
Speaker 1: Oh okay, okay, I'm glad. I'm glad we're talking about

810
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 1: this because it does sound like it's a nice subdivision, right,

811
00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 1: it does, doesn't It reminds me of like, what's that

812
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 1: movie The land before time, or they're all going there

813
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:45,759
Speaker 1: heading for the Great Valley. A little Foot's mom dies

814
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 1: spoiler alert movies A lot older, jeez got we're old,

815
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:56,480
Speaker 1: very sad. Took a lot of cues from Bambi. And

816
00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:00,880
Speaker 1: this is where we see Operation Underworld is anying traction.

817
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:05,960
Speaker 1: It's happening. The Mob and the United States government have

818
00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:10,520
Speaker 1: teamed up in the weirdest way, and the stories just

819
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:14,759
Speaker 1: getting started. Uh. Thank goodness, we did a preemptive two

820
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:17,200
Speaker 1: parter here because we're gonna have to pause and come

821
00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:19,920
Speaker 1: back with you this Thursday, in just a few days

822
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:27,120
Speaker 1: to dive into the end results of Operation Underworld. Things

823
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 1: heat up and flexes are flex Let's just say Liciano's

824
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:34,839
Speaker 1: got got a kind of a surprise coming his way.

825
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:37,160
Speaker 1: We'll leave it at that. In the meantime, why don't

826
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:39,680
Speaker 1: you hit us up on our Facebook group Ridiculous Historians

827
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:43,719
Speaker 1: and let us know any other ridiculous mafia stories that

828
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:46,000
Speaker 1: we should cover, because we love this stuff. This when

829
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:49,520
Speaker 1: is such a fabulous intersection of these two things that

830
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:51,480
Speaker 1: we did. You know, World War two history and the

831
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:54,160
Speaker 1: history of organized crime in the United States. You can

832
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:57,480
Speaker 1: also find Ben and Max and I as individuals on

833
00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:00,480
Speaker 1: the Internet. I learned exclusively on Instagram, where I am

834
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 1: at how Now Noel Brown. In a burst of creativity,

835
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:06,520
Speaker 1: I'm calling myself at Ben Bulling b A W L

836
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:09,160
Speaker 1: I N. On Instagram you can get a behind the

837
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:11,360
Speaker 1: scenes look at some of the weird stuff we're getting

838
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:14,440
Speaker 1: into for various shows. I'd also hit us up with

839
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:18,880
Speaker 1: any questions or suggestions. You could also go to Twitter

840
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:23,160
Speaker 1: Appen Bowling hs W, where you will see uh, not

841
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:27,080
Speaker 1: just me, but also the one and only Mr Max Williams. Yes,

842
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:30,880
Speaker 1: you can find me on Twitter at athl Underscore Max Williams,

843
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:34,719
Speaker 1: where I'll mostly just beatrolling Ben Boland and that's about it.

844
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 1: Nicknames also send us, send us cool nicknames. Oh no,

845
00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:42,120
Speaker 1: before we go to uh to part two of this

846
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 1: Call It a Day, I wanted to give you a

847
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:49,439
Speaker 1: couple of weird mop nicknames. Can I just laundry listen? Real? Okay? Man?

848
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 1: But I relish these all right, Anthony, Big Tuna a Cardo,

849
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:57,640
Speaker 1: These are real ones. These are real ones. Lou to

850
00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:00,920
Speaker 1: be confused with Jim uh from from the Office. He

851
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:04,080
Speaker 1: also got the nickname big Tuna did Andy Bernard Andy

852
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:06,399
Speaker 1: bernarcas he was eating like a tuna sandwich one day

853
00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden he's big tuna. I'm gonna say,

854
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:10,680
Speaker 1: you know what, We'll just do rule of three. I'll

855
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:13,040
Speaker 1: give you one more, I'll give you two more. Uh

856
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:16,600
Speaker 1: Donald the Wizard of odds Angeline. A lot of these

857
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:22,200
Speaker 1: are just too long. That's pretty clever though it's it's

858
00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 1: a little long. No one call it. That'd be the

859
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 1: whiz for store. Maybe there we go and the one

860
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:28,160
Speaker 1: I wanted to end on. I'm sure there's a story

861
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:33,719
Speaker 1: behind this. Luigi baby Shacks. Minoccio Boom maybe says that

862
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:35,840
Speaker 1: like s h A c K S. Yeah, it's l

863
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:38,960
Speaker 1: J q U s okay cool. Yeah, another one won't

864
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:41,440
Speaker 1: have made sense, baby shacks. What does a baby shacks?

865
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:46,520
Speaker 1: Sounds very untoward. That sounds very sketch. We'll find out

866
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:49,360
Speaker 1: in part two, I guess we will, and the meantime

867
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:52,399
Speaker 1: as well. Once again, more meantime thanks to Chris frostiotis

868
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:54,560
Speaker 1: here is spirit Eves, Jeff Coats out in the world

869
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:57,520
Speaker 1: making moves, John the Strickland a k the quizz Are

870
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:03,360
Speaker 1: uh long made rain. Yeah, I guess on his side

871
00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 1: of the you know things. Yeah, indeed, see you next

872
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:16,239
Speaker 1: time folks. For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit

873
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:18,840
Speaker 1: the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you

874
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:20,320
Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.