1 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and welcome to stuff I've never 2 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:09,799 Speaker 1: told your protection of I heart idios how Stuff Works. 3 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:24,079 Speaker 1: Today's classic is in part brought to you based on 4 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 1: our conversation we had around um J k Rowling and 5 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: if you remember, at the end of two thousand nineteen, 6 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: one of the things that was trending on Twitter was 7 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: turf which is trans exclusionary radical feminist. So I thought 8 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: it would be a good idea to to bring this 9 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: episode back, this episode looking into what that means, all 10 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 1: that entails, after we had our conversation around our first 11 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: update and and problematic women. Yeah, so we hope you 12 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: enjoy Welcome to Stuff mob Never told you. From how 13 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: stupports dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 14 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: Caroline and I'm Kristin. This week, Kristin and I are 15 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 1: taking a hard look at basically straight feminisms LGBT problem today, 16 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:29,400 Speaker 1: So specifically we are talking about trance exclusionary radical feminists. 17 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 1: Now turf as is the acronym for that is considered 18 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: a slur by some and it's considered just a neutral 19 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: descriptor by others, particularly the person who coined the term 20 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 1: back in two thousand eight. But we will get into 21 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: all of that in just a moment. But last time 22 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: on the show, we introduced the idea of radical feminism 23 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: and the lavender menace, and so today's episode is building 24 00:01:57,240 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: off of that. But so, Kristin, could you give us 25 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: a little refresh sure on what the lavender menace is? Yeah? So, 26 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: the lavender menace was a term coined by feminine mystique 27 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: author and president of National Organization of Women Betty fre 28 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: Dan to describe her discomfort with feminists aligning themselves with 29 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: radical feminist lesbians at the time because she was very 30 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:33,519 Speaker 1: concerned about the credibility of second wave feminism and considered 31 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 1: lesbians a potential threat to that because the rampant homophobia 32 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 1: of the time, um and the you know, still persistent 33 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 1: stereotyping of feminists maintained that women who advocate for gender 34 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 1: equality are really just man hating lesbians, and so she 35 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: thought that the so called lavender menace might in hib 36 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: it mainstream feminism from moving forward, to which those radical 37 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: lesbian feminists that she was so scared of essentially took 38 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: it on as their mantles, saying, Okay, we will reclaim 39 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 1: this term. We will become the lavender menace, and we 40 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:21,640 Speaker 1: will fight against this, fighting against essentially the people who 41 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:25,679 Speaker 1: they should be building a coalition with. And that did 42 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:28,119 Speaker 1: end up happening. I mean, Betty for Dan came back 43 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 1: and and later said that she was wrong. The National 44 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: Organization of Women and other feminist organizations at the time, 45 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 1: and also people like Gloria Steinham publicly stood up for 46 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: the needs and recognition of lesbians. But it really gets to, 47 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: like you said, this lingering still shortcoming when it comes 48 00:03:52,600 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: to white sis gender straight feminist being more inclusive. But 49 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 1: if we zero specifically in on those radical feminists, particularly 50 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 1: radical lesbian feminists of the nineteen seventies of second wave feminism, 51 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: there was really a push to embrace lesbian ism. And 52 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 1: I know that sounds really weird, but we we did 53 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:20,279 Speaker 1: touch on in our last episode not just being a 54 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: lesbian having relationships with women, but literally embracing the lesbian 55 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 1: nonman involved lifestyle. Um even going so far as for 56 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: straight women to embrace political lesbianism as a way to 57 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 1: fight the patriarchy. And so part of this more radical 58 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 1: radical feminist outlook was that even bisexual or pan sexual 59 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: women are the enemy because they're literally sleeping with the enemy. 60 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:51,600 Speaker 1: How can you be a true feminist fighting for tree 61 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 1: equality and liberation if you're having sex with men. They 62 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: were also turning their backs on butch lesbians, considering them 63 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:02,799 Speaker 1: an unhealthy mirroring of male privilege or patriarchal sex roles. 64 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 1: And they maintained that women are basically perfect and that 65 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:09,719 Speaker 1: true love can only exist between women. And it's this 66 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 1: focus on true womanhood in quotes that often ignored class 67 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:21,239 Speaker 1: and race issues, but it totally barred trans women. Yeah, 68 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: and like we said, we did an entire episode on 69 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 1: this chapter of women's liberation in the seventies and eighties 70 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 1: last time, So if you want a more in depth 71 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 1: look at that, then definitely listen to the Lavender Menace 72 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:40,359 Speaker 1: podcast episode that came out earlier this week. But today 73 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 1: we're going to focus in on the contemporary transphobia within 74 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:51,160 Speaker 1: some radical feminist circles and how this also reflects more 75 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: broadly on how people think about feminism today and what 76 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: radical feminism means. And so people might be wondering, people 77 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: who aren't familiar with the is she might be wondering, 78 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 1: why would you bar trans women from feminism? And it 79 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: has it's directly descended from those ideas that anything that 80 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:18,919 Speaker 1: could potentially be aligned with manhood, masculinity men in general 81 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 1: is considered a negative because, like I just said, that 82 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 1: whole idea of true womanhood was so critical to some 83 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: of these radical feminists groups. And so the reasoning behind 84 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:34,039 Speaker 1: excluding trans women from the feminist movement was that trans women, 85 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 1: they argued, or biologically male and are just masquerading as 86 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: women or their parodying women, and the idea that they'll 87 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 1: never truly understand what it means to be a woman. 88 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: They were not socialized as women, they didn't face the 89 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 1: same types of oppression that biological women face, and so 90 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: they end up saying, hey, you were born a man, 91 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 1: I consider that you are always a man. And these circles, 92 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:02,600 Speaker 1: these old schools ter circles were certainly alive and well 93 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:06,479 Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies, but we're really going to talk 94 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: about what's going on today, especially because when you look 95 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 1: at criticisms of feminists, it usually is the you know, 96 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: the the turf label that gets tossed around a lot 97 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: of like, oh, well, feminism today is wrong because you're 98 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: not really advocating for gender equality because you have some 99 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 1: of these radical feminists out here who are mis and dross, 100 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: who want nothing to do with men who are and 101 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 1: that is not equality at all. So this is it's, 102 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 1: I think an important clarifying conversation to have to narrow 103 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: down who turfs really are in terms of being a 104 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: small segment of the feminist spectrum, and how they are 105 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 1: even distinct from radical feminists, and how radical feminists are 106 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: even distinct from would we say what lower case F feminists? Yeah, 107 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: and I mean, I think it's important. Sometimes it goes 108 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: without saying, but it is important to revisit the idea that, yes, 109 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: feminism does have many many branches. It is a tree 110 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 1: with many many branches, not all of which overlap and 111 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 1: get along with each other. Yeah. By the same token too, 112 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: I think it's important to frame this conversation away from 113 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:32,199 Speaker 1: the cat fighting angle that tends to be very attractive 114 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 1: to the media of like, oh, look, feminists or fighting 115 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 1: with each other again. And I really don't want to 116 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: present this conversation of these we don't like these women 117 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 1: over here they're saying all these nasty things. But rather, 118 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: I don't know, take more of a bird's eye view 119 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: of the lay of the land, of what what's going on, 120 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:56,719 Speaker 1: how this term turf even came about, and how the 121 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: transactivism that's really, you know, in full bloom today is 122 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: dealing with this transphobia that has existed historically and still 123 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: today within small corners of feminism. Yeah. So I mentioned 124 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 1: earlier that the term turf is actually pretty new, despite 125 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: the fact that there have been anti trans feminists in 126 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: the movement from the get go. So, Kristen, where did 127 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:31,199 Speaker 1: turf come from? So? The term is credited to Australian 128 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 1: blogger TikTok, who is also assist Gender Woman UM and 129 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:40,239 Speaker 1: Tigtok coined it as a neutral description of a particular 130 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: group of activists that she felt, in her words, were 131 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 1: colonizing radical feminist discourse. Yeah, she says it wasn't meant 132 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:51,320 Speaker 1: to be a slur, but she is sure it can 133 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: be perceived as one, in the same way that some 134 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: people might consider the words feminist or radical feminist to 135 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 1: be slurs, depending on the tone and cont text and 136 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 1: who's saying it. And so in that same vein, many 137 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:07,199 Speaker 1: of these women who were called turfs definitely opposed the term, 138 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: saying that it is a slur and that they prefer 139 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: the term man exclusionary radical feminist, but preferring the term 140 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: man exclusionary radical feminists also highlights their transphobia absolutely because 141 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:26,559 Speaker 1: they are still in calling themselves man exclusionary radical feminist 142 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: or merf's. They're still calling trans women men because that 143 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: it falls under the same umbrella to them. And this 144 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 1: whole turf MERV transphobia within feminism issue seems to have 145 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:45,439 Speaker 1: come to a head inteen when there was a piece 146 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: in The New Yorker by Michelle Goldberg writing about transphobic 147 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: feminists and trans feminists and sort of how they have 148 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: obviously like butt heads, how are they existing these same spaces, 149 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 1: especially in the context of growing transactivism um And in 150 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 1: response to that New Yorker piece, which we'll talk about 151 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: in more detail later on in the podcast, Julius Serrano, 152 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 1: who is author of The Whipping Girl wrote in the 153 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 1: Advocate quote from their point of view, they should be 154 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 1: referred to as merphs because they reject trans women who 155 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: they see as men, but not trans men, who they 156 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: view as misguided women who have been brainwashed by patriarchal 157 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 1: and transgender agendas. Needless to say, an overwhelming majority of 158 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: transgender people rejected this framing of the issue, and Serrano, 159 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 1: writing that piece in The Advocate, was clarifying all of 160 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 1: that because she felt that the New Yorker piece didn't 161 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 1: really outline clearly enough the the depth of the transphobia 162 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: that a lot of these you know TERFs, these trans 163 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 1: exclusionary radical feminists, um really embrace. Yeah. Well, and she 164 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:07,320 Speaker 1: was also arguing that Goldberg painted so called turfs in 165 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: a much more sympathetic light than she did actual trans activists, 166 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 1: which is something that we see across a lot of 167 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:18,319 Speaker 1: think pieces for lack of a better word, that are 168 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,319 Speaker 1: around today talking about these very same issues and by 169 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 1: the same token too. There is a concern among radical 170 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:29,559 Speaker 1: feminists who are not transphobic that lumping all of this 171 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 1: together in this way, in the way that the New 172 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 1: Yorker piece and other pieces have kind of done, of 173 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: of really muddying those waters. Um. They've worried that it's 174 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: casting a shadow on them, lumping all radical feminists into 175 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 1: the turf group hashtag not all rad fems. Yeah, and 176 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: so it is worth uh clarifying, yes, that not all 177 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: radical feminists are transphobic, and that there are plenty of 178 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 1: trans women actives who are feminists these you know, there's 179 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 1: lots of inn diagrams going on, surprise surprise in the 180 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:10,679 Speaker 1: feminist movement. But we looked over at the turfs dot 181 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 1: com to get some clarification on what a trans exclusionary 182 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 1: radical feminist is or does um And they point out 183 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: that turfs as they see it, assert that trans women 184 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 1: or men and vice versa. Uh, and that trans women 185 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:32,439 Speaker 1: can't actually be lesbians. Uh. They out trans people, whether 186 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 1: they're coworkers, colleagues, whoever, and they make the assertion that 187 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: the world would be a better place without trans people. 188 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 1: See the example of Bev von Door, who's a big 189 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 1: name turf activist and writer. Von Door said they expect 190 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,079 Speaker 1: will be shocked to see statistics about them being killed 191 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:55,439 Speaker 1: and don't realize some of us wish they would all 192 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 1: be dead. And von Door's name is actually one that 193 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:03,479 Speaker 1: comes up when we look at sort of the history 194 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: of that tension between feminism, radical feminism and transactivists. Yeah, 195 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 1: so now is the time when we highlight a couple 196 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: of not so savory moments in radical feminist history. So 197 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy three, at the West Coast Lesbian Conference, 198 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: trans folk singer Beth Elliott was threatened and eventually excluded 199 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: from the gathering of more than twelve hundred lesbian women, 200 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: and a group called the Gutter Dikes had leaflotted the 201 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: conference to protest Elliott's inclusion, and the charge was led 202 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 1: Caroline by none other than who by Bev von Door, 203 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 1: who alleged or still alleges that Elliott had stalked her 204 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: and threatened to rape her after von Door turned Elliott 205 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: down when they were teens. And so this is really 206 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: a lightning rod moment in the feminism if we're going 207 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 1: to have the dichotomy, if we're going to say the 208 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 1: feminism versus trans movement um, because it really highlighted, hey 209 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 1: we don't like trans people, or hey we need to 210 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: support and include trans people well, and and kind of 211 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 1: pulling out our focus a little bit too. This is 212 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 1: something that Serrano writes about in Whipping Girl in terms 213 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 1: of uh, just transphobia in the nineteen seventies and of 214 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 1: trans people having a really hard time finding a welcoming 215 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 1: space because you have within radical feminism this transphobia happening. 216 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: And then when it comes to the gay rights movement, 217 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 1: in the same way that Betty Ford Dan was pulling 218 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 1: the lavender menace. The gay rights movement wasn't so open 219 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: to trans people either, because they were trying to position 220 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: their platform in more of away from gender identity and 221 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 1: focusing on sexual orientation and relationships. So they were like, 222 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 1: we don't have a place anywhere. Yeah. So at the 223 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: same time that the group the gutter Dykes are leafletting 224 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 1: the conference to protest Elliot's inclusion, keynote speaker Robin Morgan 225 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 1: was blasting Elliott and trans women in general. In her speech. 226 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 1: She called Elliott an opportunist, infiltrator, and a destroyer. Morgan said, 227 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 1: I will not call a male she thirty two years 228 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:27,479 Speaker 1: of suffering in this Andrew centric society and of surviving 229 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 1: have earned me the title woman. One walk down the 230 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 1: street by a male transvestite, five minutes of his being hassled, 231 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: which he may enjoy, and then he dares, he dares 232 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: to think he understands our pain. And this is a 233 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 1: refrain that, I mean, this is still going on. The 234 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 1: the mis gendering, the purposeful attempt to cause pain by 235 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: mis gendering trans people is something that still goes on. 236 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: I mean, we saw it come out in full force 237 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: when Caitlyn Jenner was on the cover of Vanity Fair. 238 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: But so in the wake of this speech and the 239 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: wake and in the wake of the leafleting, Elliott gets 240 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 1: on stage to perform, but the Turf's got violent. They 241 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,640 Speaker 1: were threatening her and they jumped on stage to assault her. 242 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:17,400 Speaker 1: But again, not all feminists, not all lesbians, not all 243 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 1: women of this movement felt the same way. Writing in 244 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 1: the publication The Tide, which is a lesbian newsletter, one 245 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,920 Speaker 1: woman did speak up for Elliott. She wrote, this woman 246 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:32,159 Speaker 1: is insisting that Beth Elliott not be permitted to perform 247 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: because Beth is a transsexual. Beth was on the San 248 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: Francisco steering committee for the conference, a pan of the 249 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: original group that gave birth to the idea. She's written 250 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 1: some far out feminist songs. That's why she's here. No, 251 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: we do not cannot relate to her as a man. 252 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:49,119 Speaker 1: We have not known her as a man. She is 253 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:51,439 Speaker 1: a woman because she chooses to be a woman. What 254 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 1: right do you have to define her sexuality? And I 255 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,640 Speaker 1: just thought that this was a perfect as I said, 256 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:05,239 Speaker 1: lighting Rod moment to highlight the division between turfs and 257 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:10,679 Speaker 1: non turfs, basically everyone and everyone else, and and it 258 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: pedals so much in those same myths about trans people 259 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 1: that we have talked about on past podcasts, that they're 260 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:25,120 Speaker 1: really just trying to deceive us and infiltrate and where 261 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 1: gender as a costume. Um. So it's just it's so 262 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:33,439 Speaker 1: again and again and again reading about this, especially the 263 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 1: history and obviously how it's still going on today. It's 264 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:42,879 Speaker 1: unfortunate to see people in the name of feminism really 265 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 1: just recycling the same kinds of lives that feminism ultimately 266 00:18:47,440 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: is trying to dismantle. Well. So, unfortunately, though that conference 267 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 1: and Beth Elliott's exclusion, we're not the only sour notes 268 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 1: in the seventies. Um. We also have Olivia Records UH, 269 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:18,920 Speaker 1: which was a woman's music collective in Los Angeles, receiving 270 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 1: hate mail and death threats for hiring a trans woman, 271 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:27,400 Speaker 1: Sandy Stone as a recording engineer, and UH Stone has 272 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:29,919 Speaker 1: written about how, you know, we were all having a 273 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 1: great time. We were making music, we were working together 274 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:37,160 Speaker 1: for the feminist cause for women, supporting women and other 275 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: lesbians and other feminists. It was great. And then a 276 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: boycott and smear campaign organized by Janice Raymond eventually drove 277 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:51,640 Speaker 1: Stone out of the collective, which did attempt to defend her. 278 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:56,400 Speaker 1: They pinned an essay for a lesbian publication saying that, hey, 279 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:01,159 Speaker 1: Sandy has decided to give up her male identity, and 280 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 1: now she's faced with the same kinds of oppression that 281 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 1: other women and lesbian's face. She must also cope with 282 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:13,440 Speaker 1: the ostracism that all of society imposes on a transsexual being. Like, hey, 283 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: everybody has a past, but this is the present. We 284 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 1: need to focus on the present, and we are all 285 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:22,119 Speaker 1: about supporting fellow women and fellow lesbians. That is not 286 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: how people like Janice Raymond saw it. No, Janice Raymond 287 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: saw it as again essentially a guy deceiving and infiltrating 288 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: a sacred female space. And I mean it's so unfortunate too, 289 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: because you know, the in the bigger context, Olivia Records 290 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: was a pretty incredible thing happening if you consider how today, 291 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 1: but especially back then, how male dominated the music industry 292 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 1: was um but silver lining. Sandy Stone would go on 293 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: to write an essay The Empire Strikes Back, a post 294 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 1: trans sexual manifesto that became essentially the foundation of transgender 295 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 1: studies around the world. Yeah, and it also got people thinking. 296 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 1: Robin Tyler, who was part of the feminist comedy duo 297 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,919 Speaker 1: Harrison and Tyler, had been scheduled to perform at that 298 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 1: same conference as Beth Elliott in nineteen seventy three, and 299 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 1: later in an interview she reflected on that reaction to 300 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: Stone and she says, you know what's interesting, rather than 301 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 1: fighting who's oppressing us, turfs go after the most oppressed 302 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: people instead of building a coalition. And that's just shocking 303 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:39,440 Speaker 1: to me. And Kristin, that's what you said earlier about um, 304 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 1: the need to sort of come together and fight for 305 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 1: the same thing rather than tearing each other down exactly UM. 306 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 1: And then finally we wanted to talk about the Michigan 307 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:55,439 Speaker 1: Women's Women with a Y Music Festival or mish Fest 308 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:59,400 Speaker 1: mitch Fest that was started in nineteen seventy nine as 309 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 1: a women Born, Women Again, Women with Wise event and 310 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 1: it is still intermittently held today and basically thousands of 311 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 1: women would come, set up camp Cooke, take classes and 312 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:14,959 Speaker 1: enjoy a safe space. There was one woman reflecting on 313 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 1: how incredible it would be to go to this festival 314 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: where you would be out in the woods and it 315 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 1: would be dark, but you didn't have to be scared 316 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 1: of the dark because you were just surrounded by all 317 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,199 Speaker 1: of these other women who were wanting to have a 318 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: good time. But no trans women have been allowed because 319 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:38,640 Speaker 1: of the notion that it would endanger that safe space 320 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 1: and the sense of personal liberation that it offered. And 321 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:43,399 Speaker 1: that was something too that was brought up in that 322 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:48,119 Speaker 1: New Yorker piece by Michelle Goldberg and Julius Serrano also 323 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 1: commented on Missfest because it has happened in recent years, right, 324 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: and there have been transactivist protests outside of the festival. Basically, 325 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:03,640 Speaker 1: this is not okay that we're not allowed to come 326 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: share this safe space as well. Well, yeah, I mean 327 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 1: I think there were activists, but I think what was 328 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 1: heavily reported on was when some transactivists responded to the 329 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 1: trans exclusionary policy of the festival by defacing some property, 330 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 1: spray painting some things, um, which was another way for 331 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 1: Turfs and others to point and say, see, this is 332 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 1: essentially this is why we can't have nice things. They're dangerous. 333 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:37,880 Speaker 1: Trans people are dangerous. Trans people are dangerous. Um, you're deceptive, 334 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 1: you're mentally ill, and there's no reason that you should 335 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,440 Speaker 1: be included in an event for women. With a why 336 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: they say. Now, when we get a little deeper into 337 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 1: this trans exclusionary radical feminist fight against against trans inclusion, 338 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 1: a lot of it comes down to this idea that 339 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 1: trans women, especially are over reliant on gender, are using 340 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 1: gender as some kind of a crutch to again, to 341 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 1: infiltrate and deceived. Yeah, it's sort of an it's sort 342 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 1: of an interesting circular argument about gender. Is it a 343 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 1: social construction, is it biological? What is it? Writing in 344 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 1: that New Yorker piece, Michelle Goldberg says trans women say 345 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: that they are women because they feel female, that, as 346 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: some put it, they have women's brains and men's bodies. 347 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,119 Speaker 1: Radical feminists reject the notion of a quote female brain. 348 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,440 Speaker 1: They believe that if women think an act differently from men, 349 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: it's because society forces them to, requiring them to be 350 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:48,120 Speaker 1: sexually attractive, nurturing, and deferential. In the words of Lear Keith, 351 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 1: a speaker at rad Fem's respond, femininity is quote ritualized submission. 352 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: And so this is kind of the check no boxes issue, 353 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 1: the you shouldn't you shouldn't feel compelled or compel others 354 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 1: to say that you are female or male. Trans people 355 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: are hurting themselves with surgery or hormones when they should 356 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,359 Speaker 1: just learn to accept themselves as they are. You're just 357 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,679 Speaker 1: playing into the binary. Gender doesn't exist. Female is a 358 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:20,120 Speaker 1: social construct. And that's an idea that Amanda Marcott over 359 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:24,159 Speaker 1: at Slate picks up on when discussing writer Eleanor Burkett's 360 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 1: argument that Caitlyn Gender and other trans women constitute a 361 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 1: threat to feminism. Now, it's worth noting that Amanda Marcott 362 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,719 Speaker 1: and on the other side, Eleanor Burkett. There these are 363 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: just two people who are making these arguments. Plenty of 364 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: other people have been part of this conversation, but this 365 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:40,440 Speaker 1: I thought the article of its Slate was a good 366 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: highlight of the conversation, and Marcott asks, why be suspicious 367 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 1: of trans women's socially constructed gender? Then if female quote 368 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: unquote female is always a construct anyway, she says, and 369 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 1: do you really believe it's just socially constructed if you're 370 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:06,399 Speaker 1: arguing for biologically women born women only spaces, So it's 371 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 1: an argument that kind of just goes in a circle 372 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 1: of like, well, wait, so if you're saying that it 373 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:16,640 Speaker 1: really is just a construct and that feminine women are 374 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 1: just putting on a costume of femininity to appease the patriarchy. 375 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: Then how is the trans quote unquote performance of gender 376 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: and femininity any different than assists woman's performance of gender 377 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,160 Speaker 1: and femininity? And why should trans women not be included 378 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 1: in women only spaces? Well, I would think that in 379 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 1: this pocket of radical feminism, most of us are doing 380 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 1: it wrong in their eyes, wouldn't you think, because you 381 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 1: would need to divorce, divorce yourself of any outer trappings 382 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 1: of femininity in order to truly achieve this, this idea 383 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,399 Speaker 1: of feminism that they have, right, Yeah, I don't know. 384 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 1: And and I mean, Kristen, you mentioned muddying the waters earlier, 385 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 1: and I mean the things that we're touching on at 386 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:21,879 Speaker 1: the moment are They're not all from the same people. 387 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,879 Speaker 1: And I think that's what makes it complicated, because some 388 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 1: radical feminists are saying, divorce yourself from everything that is 389 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 1: male and masculine and be androgynous. Some people are saying, 390 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 1: embrace everything that is feminine and womanly in you. Some 391 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,400 Speaker 1: people are just saying, like, just turn away from men 392 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: and just sleep with women or live with women, and 393 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 1: don't you know, have any connection to men at all. 394 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,159 Speaker 1: So but not all of these different groups are saying 395 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 1: the same thing. I mean, it's honestly mind boggling and 396 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 1: seems to lead to dead ends whichever way you turn. Yeah, 397 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:03,400 Speaker 1: and it's also it's also I don't know how productive 398 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 1: it is to tell people how to live and what 399 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,880 Speaker 1: to like. I mean, I think conversations about the patriarchy 400 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 1: are obviously important and enlightening, and I'm not sure that 401 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:23,439 Speaker 1: to me, it's akin to saying the roof is leaking, 402 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:28,480 Speaker 1: so just burned down the whole house. Yeah. Um, but 403 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: you know I love an h G TV metaphor, let's 404 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: renovate this feminist house. That's right. Well, you know women 405 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: are good at interior decor. So in the first half 406 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 1: of the show, we focus a lot on transphobia. But 407 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: now let's talk about transactivism, because transactivists are loud and proud, 408 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:55,239 Speaker 1: and transgender people are more visible than ever before and 409 00:28:55,400 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: actively fighting and simply by living and being vocal, are 410 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 1: are fighting these turf stereotypes circling around hate, fear, and exclusion. 411 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 1: I mean, you have people like Laverne Cox and Janet Mak, 412 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: Caitlin Jenner, and Jazz Jennings, to only name four who 413 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 1: are putting human faces on the issue that really didn't 414 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 1: exist with this level of visibility at all in say 415 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 1: the seventies or eighties. Yeah, I mean, certainly, transactivists are 416 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: just as vocal as they always have been, but it's 417 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 1: just now I feel like that they're being heard, that 418 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: people are willing to say, Okay, no, wait, what are 419 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 1: you saying, Let's actually listen to this and actually give 420 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,719 Speaker 1: you a chance to speak. Um. These activists are fighting 421 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 1: for inclusion, yes, but they're also fighting for safety, for 422 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 1: recognition of their right to exist and to be taken seriously. 423 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 1: They're advocating for things like admission to women's only colleges 424 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 1: and acceptance in spaces supposedly only for women, like we 425 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 1: mentioned at the top of the podcast asked. They're also 426 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,960 Speaker 1: raising awareness about the number of trans people killed every year, 427 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 1: which in the US as of mid August was at 428 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 1: fifteen according to an article in Time magazine. And they're 429 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 1: still fighting this stigma that being trans is a mental 430 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 1: illness of their sexual deviance, that their deceptive, or just 431 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: that it's a passing phase. They'll change their minds because 432 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 1: one common refrain among trans exclusionary radical feminists is that 433 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 1: trans women suffer from something called autoguyn ophelia or sexual 434 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 1: arousal at the thought of being female or having female genitalia. 435 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 1: And this term was coined by a guy named Ray 436 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 1: Blanchard who's a retired psychiatry professor UM, who used it 437 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 1: to describe a neurotic compulsion to become a woman rather 438 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 1: than a conceived female identity. So again, I mean, it's 439 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 1: just like framing them as deviance, as this is just 440 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 1: being a fetish essentially. And some of the heroes of 441 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 1: the Turf movement or platform or position are those individuals 442 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 1: who have transitioned and who then have come out and 443 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 1: said that they regretted their decision and went back to 444 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 1: living as a man or a woman. UM. These people 445 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,960 Speaker 1: are often cited by turfs as saying, see, you just 446 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 1: get a little therapy and it all gets straightened out 447 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 1: in your head. Oh, but that sounds so similar to 448 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 1: conversion therapy gay conversion therapy, where in those on the 449 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: way opposite end of the spectrum, where you have hyper 450 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 1: conservative people who do elevate people who have come out 451 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 1: and then gone back in the closet quote unquote thanks 452 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 1: to conversion therapy. Their elevated say oh look, see see, 453 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: it's just a phase. Yeah, when in reality, no one 454 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 1: individual of any type of group can stand for an 455 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 1: entire population. And I should also clarify to the distinction 456 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 1: between we're talking about gender identity in terms of the 457 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 1: trans issue and sexual orientation with a gay conversion therapy, 458 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 1: So a little apple's oranges, but nonetheless startling similarities between 459 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 1: these two groups, which are ideologically on opposite ends of 460 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 1: the political spectrum. And a big aspect of transactivism too, 461 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: is fighting against actions that are specifically intended to oppress them. 462 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: Not just insensitivity or maybe a little ignorance on the 463 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 1: part of SIS people, but things like miss gendering or 464 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 1: refusing to use the correct or preferred pronouns. Uh. This 465 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 1: is big with writer Sheila Jeffreys. Tour writer Sheila Jeffreys, 466 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 1: who does refuse to use preferred pronouns. She writes that 467 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 1: used by men of feminine pronouns conceals the masculine privilege 468 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 1: bestowed upon them by virtue of having been placed in 469 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 1: and brought up in the male sex cast. So there's 470 00:32:55,880 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 1: no acknowledgement there that trans women are women. There's still 471 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 1: that assertion that no, trans women are just men who 472 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 1: are putting on a costume. And part of transactivism against CIS, 473 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:17,240 Speaker 1: sexism and society does involve too, speaking out on things 474 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 1: that they perceive as oppressive, regardless of intention, So things 475 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 1: like celebrations of sis, women's bodies and biology. So we 476 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 1: did an entire podcast, for instance, all about this period 477 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: pride movement in quotes and a celebration of menistruation culturally, 478 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 1: like we've kind of never seen before really things like that, 479 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 1: um things like the vagina monologues there have been on 480 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 1: on some college campuses. Vagina monologue performances canceled because they're 481 00:33:52,520 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 1: seen as trans exclusionary. And also things like the quote 482 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 1: unquote real women or real beauty ads that we've seen. 483 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:15,839 Speaker 1: We've seen a huge uptick in this from companies like 484 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:20,839 Speaker 1: Dove or Pantine who focused on this real womanhood, which 485 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,280 Speaker 1: is sort of an indirect throwback to the early rad 486 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 1: fem claim of embracing true womanhood as the way to 487 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:33,759 Speaker 1: um achieved true liberation. They draw links between you know, 488 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:35,680 Speaker 1: how can you say that these women in this ad 489 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 1: are true women? What is a true woman? Right? And 490 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 1: and this too, you know, gets to the body positivity, 491 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,799 Speaker 1: things like real women have curves and things like that, 492 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 1: of stepping back and saying, wait, what do we really 493 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 1: mean by real And also within the healthcare scope, ignoring 494 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 1: that trans men can get pregnant and also have periods 495 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 1: and abortion reproductive rites as a trans issue too, or 496 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 1: holding women only events that expressly exclude trans women, or 497 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 1: not admitting trans women to women's colleges. That's been a 498 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 1: huge issue in the past few years. Yeah, and so 499 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:19,759 Speaker 1: it's it's these it's this area, this area of well, 500 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 1: we don't mean to offend you, or we don't mean 501 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 1: to exclude you, and trans people saying well, but you're 502 00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,520 Speaker 1: excluding me and offending me and oppressing me anyway, regardless 503 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,440 Speaker 1: of your intention. It's this sort of area that's getting 504 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:35,720 Speaker 1: a lot of coverage in the think pieces nowadays, people 505 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:40,920 Speaker 1: writing about feminism and trans inclusion or exclusion, because a 506 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:45,920 Speaker 1: lot of writers, particularly sis women, have been very vocal 507 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:50,719 Speaker 1: about saying not everything can be for everybody. Uh, you're 508 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 1: just being too politically correct, you're being too sensitive, And 509 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:58,520 Speaker 1: they're essentially telling these transactivists to calm down, which we 510 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,279 Speaker 1: all know telling someone to calm down never works out. Well, 511 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,240 Speaker 1: I mean, there are plenty of people who wouldn't necessarily 512 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:08,759 Speaker 1: be called radical feminists otherwise, but who have still by 513 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 1: activists earned that turf name because they say that these 514 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 1: transactivists are taking things too far. One of those people 515 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 1: is Brent Margrad Monica Potts, who talked about the whole 516 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:25,120 Speaker 1: women's college issue in The New Republic in February. She 517 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,880 Speaker 1: points out that four women's only colleges except trans women, 518 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:34,719 Speaker 1: and to except trans men, and she, in her essay, 519 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 1: which I thought was pretty reminiscent of the complaints that 520 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:42,720 Speaker 1: we've talked about over political correctness, Potts argues that women 521 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:47,440 Speaker 1: still like super Duper need the confidence incubator that is 522 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,680 Speaker 1: the woman only college setting, and she says that erasing 523 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 1: references to women sisterhood and their bodies or like you said, 524 00:36:55,560 --> 00:37:00,239 Speaker 1: Kristen canceling performances of the Vagina Monologues is indistinguished ble 525 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,359 Speaker 1: from old school misogyny. So her the crux of her 526 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:06,400 Speaker 1: argument is that it should be okay that not everything, 527 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 1: all the time is for everybody. Um. But then she 528 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:14,960 Speaker 1: does go on to say that women's spaces and language 529 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 1: are targeted, which is a pretty loaded term, are targeted 530 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 1: by transactivists because women readily give up power. She writes, 531 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:29,160 Speaker 1: quote women, especially young ones, hold power so delicately and 532 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 1: uncomfortably they're ready to give it up as soon as 533 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 1: someone accuses them of being selfish. Which this was the 534 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 1: off ramp for me in this piece where I don't 535 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:43,920 Speaker 1: agree with that at all. I think that saying that 536 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:49,279 Speaker 1: it's being targeted, um, strategically like that is uh well, 537 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,920 Speaker 1: I'll just say I don't agree that it's being strategically 538 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,760 Speaker 1: targeted like that because I think that also again paints 539 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:59,040 Speaker 1: trans people as devious rather than seeking safe spaces as 540 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,719 Speaker 1: they've been seeking for so long. Yeah, so she she 541 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:04,960 Speaker 1: basically goes on to say that, hey, there's plenty of 542 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 1: other liberal arts schools that are safe spaces for gender 543 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:14,000 Speaker 1: questioning students or or sexuality questioning students, many of them 544 00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:19,359 Speaker 1: being former women's only colleges. Um. So basically, why don't 545 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 1: you just go there and leave our women's only colleges alone, 546 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:26,880 Speaker 1: you trans people? And unrelated note, there are some people 547 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:31,960 Speaker 1: concerned about, you know, these these women who are not 548 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:36,319 Speaker 1: turfs being labeled turfs for like Monica Potts is doing, 549 00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:40,680 Speaker 1: raising you know, a need for which she says, these 550 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:44,160 Speaker 1: sacred spaces, the sisterhoods and things like that. For someone 551 00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:49,360 Speaker 1: like that to then be by some activists called a 552 00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:54,880 Speaker 1: turf that that is simply a weapon also to silence women. 553 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,880 Speaker 1: So it's like, are we are we really progressing the 554 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,759 Speaker 1: conversation or is everyone just trying to tell everyone else 555 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:03,800 Speaker 1: to shut up? What's going on? It kind of feels 556 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,880 Speaker 1: like everybody's telling each other to shut up. McDonald, which 557 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,480 Speaker 1: is a pseudonym by the way, was writing in The 558 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:16,040 Speaker 1: New Statesman also in February and says that, uh, the 559 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:20,839 Speaker 1: transactivists who are like Potts was talking about wanting to 560 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:25,200 Speaker 1: be included in women's only spaces are a small subset 561 00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:27,600 Speaker 1: of extremists who are trying to impose their definition of 562 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:31,399 Speaker 1: reality and their political agenda on everyone. And McDonald too, 563 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:36,440 Speaker 1: points out the whole vagina monologues cancelation issue in addition 564 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:41,640 Speaker 1: to complaints about discussions of pregnancy and abortion rights and menstruation. 565 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:46,960 Speaker 1: So I think pots and McDonald, the anonymous McDonald are 566 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:52,480 Speaker 1: basically saying we should be able to accept trans people 567 00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:58,400 Speaker 1: for who they are and also celebrate women's bodies and 568 00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:02,040 Speaker 1: spaces and not be called turfs because of it, basically 569 00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:06,440 Speaker 1: saying that those two things can coexist. And you know 570 00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:11,480 Speaker 1: that one issue that people like Potts and McDonald and 571 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:14,040 Speaker 1: a lot of just media outlets in general, when reporting 572 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:19,040 Speaker 1: on this kind of issue bring up our uh people 573 00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:24,400 Speaker 1: labeled turfs having their appearances at college campuses or in 574 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:30,279 Speaker 1: public spaces canceled due to outcries from transactivists or just 575 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,000 Speaker 1: feminist activists who are like, no, get your hate speech 576 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:37,200 Speaker 1: away from me. Um and Julius Serrano, whom we mentioned 577 00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:40,240 Speaker 1: earlier in the podcast, Um wrote about this as well 578 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:44,040 Speaker 1: in her response piece in The Advocate to that New 579 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,080 Speaker 1: York Geru piece that really got a lot of people 580 00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:49,319 Speaker 1: talking and thinking about this, and she said, you know, 581 00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:54,080 Speaker 1: sure turfs should be free to speak and assemble whenever wherever, 582 00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:58,080 Speaker 1: but an l g P t Q organization would be 583 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 1: hypocritical to host performers who advocate for trans woman exclusion. 584 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,480 Speaker 1: And isn't a college that claims to protect students and 585 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:11,440 Speaker 1: faculty from gender based discrimination facing a conflict of interest 586 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,359 Speaker 1: if it invites a speaker who says trans people are 587 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:20,600 Speaker 1: just sexually deviant. Yeah good point, Yeah, good point. But 588 00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:23,840 Speaker 1: in that Advocate piece, one thing that Torono really hammered 589 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:28,160 Speaker 1: home was that her far bigger concern with all of 590 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:33,560 Speaker 1: this is the media. And I think that we're part 591 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,160 Speaker 1: of this, Caroline, because we were talking about this exact thing, 592 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:42,880 Speaker 1: the media focusing so much and debating so much over 593 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:48,040 Speaker 1: this kind of transactivism, rather than talking about the very 594 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:54,279 Speaker 1: real day to day experiences and discrimination and violence that 595 00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:58,120 Speaker 1: trans people face. You know, one of the things that 596 00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:01,720 Speaker 1: she was most distraught about with that New Yorker piece 597 00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:06,440 Speaker 1: was that it simply posed this whole thing as a 598 00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:10,719 Speaker 1: cat fight of this group versus this group, where she 599 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:14,799 Speaker 1: was like, no, this is not this is a distracting No, 600 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:20,160 Speaker 1: this is distracting focus away from where the real attention 601 00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:24,920 Speaker 1: needs to be placed in terms of actually improving trans 602 00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:30,160 Speaker 1: people's lives, because when we focus so much on this, 603 00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:35,200 Speaker 1: it paints trans people as just out to take away 604 00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:39,760 Speaker 1: everything again, as being interlopers. So, on the one hand, 605 00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:42,400 Speaker 1: I think it was really important that we have this 606 00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,359 Speaker 1: conversation about turfs because of the way, you know, as 607 00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:47,720 Speaker 1: we talked about at the top of the podcast, how 608 00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:51,719 Speaker 1: the term the acronym has taken on a life of 609 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,600 Speaker 1: its own, and how a lot of people wield it 610 00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:57,399 Speaker 1: without really understanding it. I think it's important to talk 611 00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:01,520 Speaker 1: about that, But is there a danger of talking about 612 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:05,320 Speaker 1: all of this too much? Well, do you mean that 613 00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:08,920 Speaker 1: perhaps we should focus more on the individual people or 614 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:14,120 Speaker 1: the groups of people in the conversation rather than labeling people. 615 00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:20,240 Speaker 1: I guess what I'm thinking is I'll answer your question 616 00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:25,000 Speaker 1: with another question. What I'm wondering is, how do we 617 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:33,520 Speaker 1: reframe this conversation that is very exclusionary focused of you 618 00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:37,040 Speaker 1: have one group wanting to exclude these people, and you 619 00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:41,399 Speaker 1: have another group who you know it is fighting against exclusion. 620 00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:46,600 Speaker 1: What happens if we reframe this conversation to really focus 621 00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:54,960 Speaker 1: in on inclusion, Because on the one hand, I think 622 00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:57,400 Speaker 1: it's important for us to be able to talk about 623 00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:01,960 Speaker 1: women's bodies and to talk about menstrue, ration periods, vaginas 624 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:06,239 Speaker 1: and demetriosis, these kinds of things um that we talked 625 00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:09,600 Speaker 1: about on the podcast all the time. At the same time, too, 626 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:11,920 Speaker 1: you and I want to be as inclusive as possible, 627 00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:16,640 Speaker 1: and trans lives matter, and we you know, never want 628 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:22,960 Speaker 1: to disinvite trans people to the party because you know, 629 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:28,480 Speaker 1: we want to build coalitions. So how do we how 630 00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:33,239 Speaker 1: do we make all of this inclusive? Can we do? 631 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,200 Speaker 1: Or am I wanting too many things at once. I 632 00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:38,160 Speaker 1: think we can be inclusive, and I know that you 633 00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:41,480 Speaker 1: and I have worked very hard to be inclusive, and 634 00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:45,160 Speaker 1: we have gotten many letters from trans listeners who say, hey, 635 00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:47,680 Speaker 1: thanks for the acknowledgement that there are different types of 636 00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:52,240 Speaker 1: bodies and that, um, different types of people have periods 637 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:59,520 Speaker 1: or don't have periods. UM. I do think that including 638 00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:03,720 Speaker 1: t and people in the conversation does not do away 639 00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:09,919 Speaker 1: with the importance of talking about, like you said, women's biology, 640 00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:13,360 Speaker 1: because especially when you've taken into the account the history 641 00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,239 Speaker 1: of women being divorced from their bodies and women's biology 642 00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:20,000 Speaker 1: being considered gross and dirty and too sexual and we 643 00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:24,200 Speaker 1: shouldn't talk about it. Um. So you and I are 644 00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:27,200 Speaker 1: in sort of an interesting position of we talk a 645 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:31,480 Speaker 1: lot about health and biology and sexual health and stuff 646 00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:33,719 Speaker 1: like that, but we also talk about a lot of 647 00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:39,840 Speaker 1: social issues like turfs, like transactivism um. And so so 648 00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:41,719 Speaker 1: that's sort of a long winded way of saying that 649 00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:45,440 Speaker 1: I think both of these conversations need to happen and 650 00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:48,719 Speaker 1: exist side by side, and that perhaps some of our 651 00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:54,040 Speaker 1: conversations and others could be reframed to make sure that 652 00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:58,160 Speaker 1: we do include all of those different types of bodies. Well, absolutely, 653 00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:02,360 Speaker 1: because by the same token, we have also received letters 654 00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:06,360 Speaker 1: in Facebook comments and tweets from people saying, hey, you 655 00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:09,440 Speaker 1: know what, when you're talking about especially things like menstruation 656 00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:14,640 Speaker 1: and periods, don't be so susceptist about it. Recognize that 657 00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:19,000 Speaker 1: you know, trans men experience these things too, um, which 658 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:23,040 Speaker 1: we absolutely want to do. Well. I think one thing 659 00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:29,719 Speaker 1: we can all agree on is that the terf rhetoric 660 00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:36,960 Speaker 1: is very harmful. Yeah, there's absolutely no reason to why 661 00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:44,080 Speaker 1: why I try to harm Why try to harm others emotionally, physically, mentally? Um? 662 00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:48,640 Speaker 1: Why would you out a trans person or or a 663 00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:51,560 Speaker 1: gay person or anyone? Why would you? Why would you 664 00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:58,560 Speaker 1: target people in order to cause pain? And I understand 665 00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:06,320 Speaker 1: that some radical feminists have the perspective that anything tied 666 00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:12,200 Speaker 1: to men at all ever, is the enemy, but that's 667 00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:18,920 Speaker 1: ignoring the very real, the very real fact that trans 668 00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:21,520 Speaker 1: women are women. Well. I also think that it really 669 00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:27,399 Speaker 1: says a lot that since this really started bubbling up 670 00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:31,719 Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies, especially to now, it's not like 671 00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:36,320 Speaker 1: we've seen the kind of massive cultural sea change really 672 00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:40,680 Speaker 1: embracing and advocating for turf platforms in the way that 673 00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:44,840 Speaker 1: we have seen, especially in just the last handful of years, 674 00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:51,000 Speaker 1: a legitimate cultural see change in terms of recognizing and 675 00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:58,960 Speaker 1: accepting um trans people as people, and in terms of 676 00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:07,400 Speaker 1: mainstream feminism of doing a more concerted job of including 677 00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:11,000 Speaker 1: trans people as well and inviting them to the table 678 00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:16,960 Speaker 1: and working as allies for you know, the issues that 679 00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:21,200 Speaker 1: affect them. Yeah, it's all a work in progress, Caroline, 680 00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:24,960 Speaker 1: it's a work in progress. I'm I'm really interested to 681 00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:27,799 Speaker 1: hear from people. I know that there's aspects of this 682 00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:34,160 Speaker 1: conversation that we didn't touch on. I mean, I'm incredibly 683 00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:37,480 Speaker 1: interested to hearing people from I don't know. I don't 684 00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:39,719 Speaker 1: want to say both sides of this argument because I 685 00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:41,480 Speaker 1: don't want to paint it as a cat fight like 686 00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:45,160 Speaker 1: like Goldberg did. But I'm interested to hear from listeners. 687 00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,480 Speaker 1: I know a lot of you have opinions on this well, 688 00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:52,520 Speaker 1: and I think it's just so important to remember that, 689 00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:56,680 Speaker 1: like so many of the isms that exists, feminism also 690 00:48:56,800 --> 00:49:02,440 Speaker 1: exists on a spectrum. You know, there is no one feminism, 691 00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:09,359 Speaker 1: and people often mistakenly paint feminism as wrong or misguided 692 00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:13,120 Speaker 1: because they see this one pocket over here on the 693 00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:18,840 Speaker 1: spectrum and assume that the whole thing is tainted because 694 00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:22,319 Speaker 1: of it. So with that, Mom Stuff at how Stuff 695 00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:24,760 Speaker 1: works dot Com is where you can send your letters. 696 00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:28,400 Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at Mom's Stuff podcast or 697 00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:31,879 Speaker 1: messages on Facebook. We do hope to hear from you, 698 00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:33,960 Speaker 1: and we've got a couple of letters to share with 699 00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:42,120 Speaker 1: you right now. Well, I have a letter here from 700 00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:45,879 Speaker 1: Devon in response to our Feminist Anthropology episode, Devon says, 701 00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:48,440 Speaker 1: I cannot thank you enough for doing a podcast on 702 00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:51,880 Speaker 1: feminist anthropology. I studied anthro in college, and I'm not 703 00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:55,360 Speaker 1: an anthropologist now, but I do work for a feminist organization. 704 00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:58,280 Speaker 1: Despite only spending one week in all of my years 705 00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:01,160 Speaker 1: in school studying feminist anthropoloogy and spending the rest of 706 00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:04,799 Speaker 1: the time on the same judgmental Englishman, anthropology had a 707 00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:07,680 Speaker 1: massive impact on my views as a feminist. Even if 708 00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:09,719 Speaker 1: you don't end up using your anth degree in a 709 00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:12,160 Speaker 1: practical sense, you'll use it every day when you meet 710 00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:15,480 Speaker 1: new people. Anthropology taught me the incredible skill of how 711 00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:18,120 Speaker 1: to find meaning in the little things that build culture. 712 00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:23,240 Speaker 1: Oftentimes the meetings we find show longstanding evidence of the patriarchy, 713 00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:25,600 Speaker 1: which is amazing because then we know what to fight 714 00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:28,880 Speaker 1: and work against. We can't change the culture of sexism 715 00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:31,799 Speaker 1: unless we know what we need to change. Then there's 716 00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:33,759 Speaker 1: the rare moment when we look at a ritual or 717 00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:36,480 Speaker 1: a moment and find that all along it's been feminist 718 00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:39,919 Speaker 1: and it's been beautiful. There's a definite subset of anthropology 719 00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:43,240 Speaker 1: that is specifically feminist, but I also believe that anthropology 720 00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:47,040 Speaker 1: is inherently feminist. Anything that makes you question the culture 721 00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:48,960 Speaker 1: you live in in order to find the history and 722 00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:53,400 Speaker 1: purpose of previously unquestioned actions is a feminist practice. I 723 00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:56,600 Speaker 1: wasn't at all surprised to hear that most anthropology PhD 724 00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:58,879 Speaker 1: students are women, but it still makes me feel good 725 00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:01,160 Speaker 1: to hear that the sub chicked I love and an 726 00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:05,400 Speaker 1: incredibly grateful for is populated by these smart women. Thanks 727 00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:07,759 Speaker 1: again for a great listen. Well, I've got a let 728 00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:13,080 Speaker 1: her here from Kirsten on Young Women's Voices and glottal fry. 729 00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:16,239 Speaker 1: She writes, I'm slowly working my way through your extensive 730 00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:19,280 Speaker 1: series and recently listen to your episode our Young Women 731 00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:23,160 Speaker 1: Ruining American Speech. I'm a nineteen year old female broadcast 732 00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:26,240 Speaker 1: journalist for the US Air Force. Hey pretty cool, Kersten. 733 00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:29,440 Speaker 1: Part of our training is heavily concentrated on our speech 734 00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:32,200 Speaker 1: patterns and tone of voice. A lot of young women 735 00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:35,280 Speaker 1: have a much more difficult time with the course because 736 00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:37,960 Speaker 1: of glottal fry that is just so ingrained in our 737 00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:42,280 Speaker 1: vocal register. They can actually fail out or be reclassified 738 00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:45,360 Speaker 1: if they can't unlearn it. You have to audition to 739 00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:47,879 Speaker 1: book the job, and many young women are turned away 740 00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:50,800 Speaker 1: if older women are judging the audition because their voices 741 00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:55,479 Speaker 1: are simply to quote young, thin and high. We're taught 742 00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:59,799 Speaker 1: to fake deeper, more authoritative voices by slowing down and 743 00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:03,719 Speaker 1: reading deeper. The males have a much easier time of 744 00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:07,480 Speaker 1: the course, really only having to master articulation and speed, 745 00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:10,400 Speaker 1: while the women have a lot more too correct to 746 00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:16,080 Speaker 1: be considered terrible. Love your podcast well, thanks so much, Kirsten. 747 00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:19,279 Speaker 1: That is fascinating and you know what phrase I love 748 00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:25,640 Speaker 1: glottal fry delicious salty. Well, we can't wait to hear 749 00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:28,040 Speaker 1: from you as well, dear listener. Mom Stuff at how 750 00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:30,960 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com is our email address and for 751 00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:33,279 Speaker 1: links to all of our social media as well as 752 00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:36,520 Speaker 1: all of our blogs, videos and podcasts, including this one 753 00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:40,359 Speaker 1: with links to our sources so you can read up 754 00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:44,640 Speaker 1: on all this. You could say complicated stuff we've been 755 00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:48,000 Speaker 1: talking about. Head on over to stuff Mom Never told 756 00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:54,960 Speaker 1: You dot com for more on this and thousands of 757 00:52:54,960 --> 00:53:03,279 Speaker 1: other topics. Is it how stuff works dot Com? Yes,