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Speaker 1: I think we have the best legal system. It's just

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Speaker 1: the people that implement they get lost along the way

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Speaker 1: and forget what their job really is.

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Speaker 2: He just kept on trying to remind me that who

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Speaker 2: was in authority, who was in control, and how easy

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Speaker 2: it was for my body to be found in any

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Speaker 2: alley of New York City.

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Speaker 3: It's a tough prison when you have the guards going

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Speaker 3: against you because they are the biggest gang in the prison.

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Speaker 1: They do that. They'll give a guy a life sentence

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Speaker 1: and go home in eat spaghetti like it was nothing.

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Speaker 2: And anybody that said, well, why would you confess to

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Speaker 2: something that you didn't do? My question to them will

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Speaker 2: be why wouldn't you confess when somebody's threatening to kill

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Speaker 2: your life?

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Speaker 1: The judge, he said, how you feel?

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Speaker 2: I said, I'm okay. He said, well, the days you're

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Speaker 2: lucky day you're going home.

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Speaker 3: This is Wrongful Conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with

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Speaker 3: Jason Flamm. Today we are recording from New Orleans with

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Speaker 3: a very special individual. My friend Daniel Tapia is here today. Daniel,

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Speaker 3: welcome to the show.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 3: Well let's start with this. We're in New Orleans, which

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Speaker 3: is the epicenter of the problem with the criminal justice

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Speaker 3: system or the world. Actually, America locks up more people

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Speaker 3: per capita than any place in the world, five times

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Speaker 3: as many people per capita as the rest of the

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Speaker 3: Western world, fourteen times as many as Japan, which is insane.

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Speaker 3: Louisiana locks up twice as many people per capita as

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Speaker 3: the rest of the United States, and New Orleans locks

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Speaker 3: up more people than any other county or city in Louisiana, sir.

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Speaker 3: So overall, it's really not that shocking that somebody like

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Speaker 3: you could be wrongfully convicted in a place like this.

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Speaker 1: That happens way too often.

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Speaker 3: Unfortunately, it's really troubling. Daniel was forced to take a

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Speaker 3: plea even though he's innocent, because had he not done that,

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Speaker 3: he'd probably be in prison for the rest of his life.

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Speaker 3: Is that fair, Yes, sir, because the way things roll

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Speaker 3: down here, and to be fair, in most of the

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Speaker 3: rest of the country, a huge number of people are

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Speaker 3: faced with the same sort of Sophie's choice that you had,

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Speaker 3: which is either plead guilty and sort of have that

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Speaker 3: scarlet letter, or try to fight for your innocence and

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Speaker 3: run the risk of the very likely scenario that you're

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Speaker 3: going to spend the rest of your life in prison.

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Speaker 3: So let's go back to your case, because it's like

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Speaker 3: something out of a movie.

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Speaker 1: It absolutely is. That's the only way I know how

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Speaker 1: to go a bad movie.

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Speaker 3: So walk us through that. What happened? Where were you?

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Speaker 3: How did you get caught up in this?

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Speaker 1: Okay? I used to live in the Calio Projects in

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Speaker 1: New Waters, That's where this incident occurred. That so on

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Speaker 1: the day that it occurred, I was with a friend

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Speaker 1: of mine. Let me say this. I had just bought

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Speaker 1: my first call. I was a teenager. I was eighteen

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Speaker 1: years old, just bought my first call, and basically all

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Speaker 1: I was doing was everybody I knew, all my friends, anybody, Hey,

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Speaker 1: you need to ride, Let's go this place, Let's go

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Speaker 1: to that place.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 1: We just were riding around everywhere, typical of most teenagers

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Speaker 1: when they buy their first vehicle, especially when you're the

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Speaker 1: only one out of your friends who has one at

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Speaker 1: the time. You know, the data incident happened. I was

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Speaker 1: outside talking to another friend of mine. Me and one

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Speaker 1: of my friends were getting ready to leave, and he

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Speaker 1: was like, where y'all about to go? I said, we

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna go pass by my girlfriend and then we

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Speaker 1: probably gonna go downtown, which was you know, I lived uptown.

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Speaker 1: So he said, all right, well just drop me off

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Speaker 1: on your way over there. So I said, all right.

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Speaker 1: So I dropped him off, and a friend of mine

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Speaker 1: had recently been another guy that I knew. He had

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Speaker 1: recently been shot by another individual, and you know, he

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Speaker 1: was my friend who I was dropping off. Was going

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Speaker 1: to check on him because he lived upstairs where I

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Speaker 1: was dropping him off, fat in the projects on the

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Speaker 1: other side. So as I dropped him off, he gets out,

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Speaker 1: he goes in there. I pulled off. I pull up

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Speaker 1: way I was going to. My girlfriend was probably approximately

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Speaker 1: maybe two to three blocks away. She lived in another driveway.

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Speaker 1: And if I'm going that way, I started hearing gunshots.

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Speaker 1: And when I started hearing gunshots, my friend who was

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Speaker 1: in the vehicle with me, he's like, man, you know

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Speaker 1: that's coming from where we just dropped off with my

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Speaker 1: other two friends. So I look back. I can't see

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Speaker 1: anything because the way the buildings are you can't see

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Speaker 1: over to what's going on. All I hear is gunshots.

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Speaker 1: And then I start hearing gunshots getting rapid succession like

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Speaker 1: a semi automatic, you know, like assault rifle. You can

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Speaker 1: you know the difference between a sault rifle and a

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Speaker 1: pistol going off? I mean, it's shot after shot, it's

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Speaker 1: just relentless shot after shot. At that time, probably less

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Speaker 1: than a minute later, my friend and his friend come running,

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Speaker 1: and as they're running, somebody's behind them shooting at them

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Speaker 1: with the assault rifle.

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Speaker 4: Over whatever.

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Speaker 3: It sounds like a video game, yes, sir, but it

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Speaker 3: was crazy.

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Speaker 1: No, it's real life. It's split second. You gotta make

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Speaker 1: a decision. What are you gonna do? So, as he's running,

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Speaker 1: he's running towards me, and I see him, so I

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm looking. I get back in my car

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Speaker 1: and he comes running towards my car. Pull up, he

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Speaker 1: jumps in my car. I take off. I'm like, man,

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Speaker 1: what happened? He's like, man, just go, just go, just go. So,

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Speaker 1: I know somebody's shooting at him. You know, I don't

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Speaker 1: know exactly what went on, but I see someone shooting

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Speaker 1: at him.

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Speaker 3: Well, someone shoot at him. They' shooting at ut exactly now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So there's no time to sit around and think

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Speaker 1: about what happened or what might have happened. What's the

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Speaker 1: right decision? Was not the right decision. So I pull

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Speaker 1: off and I pull out of the driveway, and I

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Speaker 1: mean less than maybe two blocks. There's cops coming from everywhere.

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Speaker 1: So I stopped. I didn't do anything, you know, I stopped.

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Speaker 1: I pull over to the side of the road. And

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Speaker 1: as I pull over to the side of the road,

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Speaker 1: they come pulling up on us. So, you know, I

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Speaker 1: put my hands up, get out the car. Whatever. I

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Speaker 1: know something happened, but I don't know what happened. I know,

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Speaker 1: you know, there was a shooting going on. I don't

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Speaker 1: know what happened, though, So we get out. They pull

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Speaker 1: us all out, They separate all of us, put us

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Speaker 1: in different places. Four of you, four of us, Yes, sir,

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Speaker 1: it was four of us. And this is where the

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Speaker 1: story gets crazy. This is where it starts not making

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Speaker 1: sense at all.

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Speaker 3: Pretty crazy so far.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: just say, you know, this is when the corruption starts.

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Speaker 1: Let me put it like that. So as we get stopped,

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Speaker 1: we get pulled out. So I don't know what the

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Speaker 1: cops are telling the other guy. But there's a black

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Speaker 1: car that pulls is a black Cadillac with tinted windows

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Speaker 1: and rims in it. And a guy pulls in front

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Speaker 1: and gets out, and he comes straight to where I'm

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Speaker 1: at and he comes back there and he opens the

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Speaker 1: door and he tells me he's a police officer. He

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Speaker 1: just saw everything that happened, and he knows I didn't

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Speaker 1: have anything to do with it, but he needs to

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Speaker 1: know what's going on because it's the second murder in

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Speaker 1: the neighborhood within that week. That was someone who was

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Speaker 1: killed maybe a block away from where this incident happened,

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Speaker 1: about five days before that, the Calio Projects in New Orleans.

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Speaker 1: There was a lot of murders, a lot of stuff

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Speaker 1: going on. It's a really bad neighborhood to grow up

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Speaker 1: in and living. And so I told him, I said, look,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what happened. I don't know anything about

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Speaker 1: the shooting. I said, man, I was just over here

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Speaker 1: and I heard some shots. So he punched me. He

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Speaker 1: hit me. He said, you're trying to take up for him.

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Speaker 1: I said, look, well, look I want to talk to

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Speaker 1: a lawyer.

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Speaker 4: Man.

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Speaker 1: You know, I ain't got nothing else to say to y'all.

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Speaker 1: Y'all sitting here punching on me saying I'm lying. I

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Speaker 1: ain't got nothing to say, so then he slams the door.

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Speaker 1: So then one after one, cops start coming up to

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Speaker 1: the car and they open the back door, and they

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Speaker 1: keep asking me what my race is. I'm like, what

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Speaker 1: my race is? What the what does that have to

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Speaker 1: do with anything? Why y'all keep why? Why are these

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Speaker 1: cops so interesting if I'm black or white? And so

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Speaker 1: I don't think anything of it. I'm just, you know whatever,

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Speaker 1: the stupid cops. You know, I'm not thinking anything. Well,

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Speaker 1: the captain of the sixth District comes and he tells me,

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Speaker 1: because I want to take up for them, he's gonna

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Speaker 1: make sure I get the death penalty win him after,

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Speaker 1: you know alone whatever. We've been sitting out there, maybe

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Speaker 1: two three hours now.

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Speaker 3: Right, The problem being that you don't actually know.

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Speaker 1: What I don't know what happened.

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Speaker 3: So even if you wanted to tell him that, you

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Speaker 3: certainly would not if you couldn't live in that neighborhood

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Speaker 3: on exactly, but there was no snitching, you would have

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Speaker 3: to just make up a story out of thin air.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I really legitimately don't know what happened for real,

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Speaker 1: because I couldn't see over it that I couldn't see

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Speaker 1: what was going on. But I know in my heart,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, I didn't I didn't have anything to do

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Speaker 1: with this. So I'm not even worrying about if I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna go to jail or if you know, because I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I didn't do anything. I stopped, y'all, I stopped, I

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Speaker 1: got out. I don't know, y'all. Tell y'all are telling

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Speaker 1: me what happened. I don't know what happened. Y'all are

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Speaker 1: telling me that somebody got shot and all this type

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Speaker 1: of stuff. So I go to jail and they let

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Speaker 1: the guy who was with me, my friend who was

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Speaker 1: with me, they let him go that same night, and

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Speaker 1: I'm just thinking of my head like this, this is crazy, you.

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Speaker 3: Know, like what this is the guy who came running

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Speaker 3: into the car.

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Speaker 1: No, this was another guy, the guy who was with

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Speaker 1: me at the time when the other guys came running

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Speaker 1: to the car. There was two guys who ran to

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Speaker 1: the car, and it was me and another friend of

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Speaker 1: mine who were in the car at the time already.

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Speaker 1: And they let him go, but they didn't let me go.

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Speaker 1: So I'm like, man, you know why they taking me

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Speaker 1: and and let him go. It's like, you know, but

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Speaker 1: I still don't know what's going on. I didn't actually

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Speaker 1: find out what was going when it actually happened until

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Speaker 1: when I was in jail, had been processed about three

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Speaker 1: days later, because I didn't even see myself on a

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Speaker 1: news I got a newspaper article from somebody. They let

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Speaker 1: me see the newspaper when I got up on the

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Speaker 1: til I was going on, and I read what happened,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, what, holy shit. And then I

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Speaker 1: start reading how they trying to involve me in and

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Speaker 1: I'm like, man, that's not even what happened. But I mean,

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Speaker 1: what can I say? What can I do about it?

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Speaker 1: I'm in jail now, So the first thing I'm thinking is,

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Speaker 1: all right, this is gonna get played out in court.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'll go to court. It'll be over. You know,

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Speaker 1: they'll see Because the cops telling me he saw everything

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Speaker 1: that happened and he knows I didn't have anything to

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Speaker 1: do with it, and he told me because he thinks

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to take up for them, that he's gonna

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Speaker 1: mess over me. But I'm like, this guy is't really

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Speaker 1: gonna go through this and really come in here and

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Speaker 1: lie in court and say, you know that I had

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Speaker 1: something to do with something I didn't, but he did.

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Speaker 1: And what's crazy is that even as they played the

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Speaker 1: dispatch tape of him calling in the shooting that he

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Speaker 1: allegedly witnessed, it doesn't even line up with what he

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Speaker 1: testified to in court, Like it doesn't even make.

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Speaker 3: Sense because he called in and said it was three

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Speaker 3: black men.

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Speaker 1: He called in and said it was three black males,

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Speaker 1: which obviously I have no melody. I don't have a

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Speaker 1: drop of it in my skin. That's all I can. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's it, you know, especially in that neighborhood. I'm one

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Speaker 1: of the only white people in that neighborhood period.

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Speaker 3: Actually, if he did witness the shooting, it would have

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Speaker 3: been really easy for him to identify it.

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Speaker 1: Just spotted me a mile away.

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Speaker 3: If I had something, it would have been, yeah, that's

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Speaker 3: the white guy from the name right exactly.

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Speaker 1: And you said it was three black males. But when

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Speaker 1: you stopped us, you stopped three black males and meet

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Speaker 1: and you let one of them go, which he didn't

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Speaker 1: have anything to do with it either. But it's just

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Speaker 1: a thought like where is all this going? Like how

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Speaker 1: does this even make sense to y'all to actually prosecute this.

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Speaker 1: It took over two years and I was eventually convicted

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Speaker 1: the second agree murder.

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Speaker 3: It took two years for the trial to resolve. So

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Speaker 3: you were in jail for two years waiting.

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Speaker 1: To go to trial, yes, sir, thinking I was going

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Speaker 1: to go home, and I didn't. They convicted me, and

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Speaker 1: it was it was the most surreal feeling I ever

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Speaker 1: felt in my life.

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Speaker 3: And the crime happened in two thousand and three.

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Speaker 1: Yes, sir, April eleven, two thousand and three.

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Speaker 3: And Hurricane Katrina has a role in this whole crazy

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Speaker 3: saga of your life as well. Definitely, So let's talk

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Speaker 3: about that.

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Speaker 1: So in August two thousand and five, Hurricane Katrina comes true.

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Speaker 1: So in the day leading up to Katrina, they basically

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Speaker 1: just it was like nothing was gonna happen, no big deal.

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Speaker 1: I'm looking at this giant storm coming our way, but

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Speaker 1: there's no preparations being made. They're not moving us out

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Speaker 1: of the line of fire. They're not taking us to

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Speaker 1: another prison up north or something where we're out of

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Speaker 1: the way of the storm and out of horms way.

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Speaker 1: They just left us there. Friday, Hurricane Katrina hitting Sunday

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Speaker 1: that Friday. They turned the phones off inside the jail,

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Speaker 1: so nobody can make a phone call outside to talk

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Speaker 1: to their family, anything like that, or let them know

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Speaker 1: that we were still in there.

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Speaker 3: Which jail was it again?

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Speaker 1: Orleans Paris Prison?

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Speaker 3: And what does that look like? Is it a tall building?

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Speaker 3: Is it a flat?

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Speaker 1: It's four stories tall.

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Speaker 3: So it's not tall at all. Not when you have Hurricane.

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Speaker 1: Katrina coming, not at all, Not at all.

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Speaker 3: And if you're on the first the second floor, if.

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Speaker 1: You're on the first floor, you'd have been dead because

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Speaker 1: I was on the second floor and we were standing

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Speaker 1: in water.

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Speaker 3: So let me just get this straight. Hurricane Katrina's coming

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Speaker 3: one of the biggest storms in the history of this country. Yes, sir,

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Speaker 3: didn't take anybody by surprise. No, everybody saw that thing.

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Speaker 3: He's coming a mile away, days away. There's one time

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Speaker 3: the weather men actually.

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Speaker 4: Got it right. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they couldn't mess that one up.

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Speaker 3: So they decided that the appropriate response would be to

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Speaker 3: abandon you there because they want to go protect their

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Speaker 3: own asses. Yes, and turn off the phones.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that's exactly what they did.

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Speaker 3: So the storm comes, you were on the second.

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Speaker 1: Floor, I was on the second floor.

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Speaker 3: What was the vibe? What was everybody saying and doing?

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Speaker 3: I mean, like it just just when you think things

300
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Speaker 3: can't get worse.

301
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Speaker 1: Yeah, So what happened was we were all on a

302
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Speaker 1: tib and of course, you know the power went out.

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Speaker 1: When the power goes out before the deputies basically locked

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Speaker 1: us in there. Left We can see out the window

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Speaker 1: onto the fourth floor, which is the highest level inside

306
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Speaker 1: of the building. Up there, that's where the deputies have

307
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Speaker 1: stationed themselves at. They removed the inmates who were up

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Speaker 1: there on the fourth floor and put them at lower floors.

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Speaker 1: And they were up there and they had like some

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Speaker 1: of their family members and stuff in there up on

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Speaker 1: the fourth floor, and they were up there cooking, and

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Speaker 1: you know, you could see they had like a barbecue

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Speaker 1: and they had all the food that was left. They

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Speaker 1: took it up there with them. So they locked us

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Speaker 1: inside of our tears, which is your cell blocks of

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Speaker 1: your domes, and we had no food. Once the storm

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Speaker 1: comes to you, we have no running water, we have no

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Speaker 1: clean water, we have nothing. We can barely even breathe

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Speaker 1: in there because it's stifling from the lack of air

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Speaker 1: and circulation going on inside there, and you've got on

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Speaker 1: a particular tier I was on. There's enough beds for

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Speaker 1: forty two people. We had about sixty four at the

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Speaker 1: time up there, and like I said, with nothing else,

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Speaker 1: not even enough beds for everybody to be in. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: being in prison, you around other people who are maybe

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Speaker 1: not so nice individuals and who have different beefs and

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Speaker 1: stuff from the street, and so when the lights go out,

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Speaker 1: nobody wants to be that guy, because I mean you

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Speaker 1: literally couldn't see your hand in front of your face

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Speaker 1: when the power was out in there. So you had

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Speaker 1: guys that started lighting fires inside of there and stuff

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Speaker 1: like that, and there's no air, there's no circulation, there's

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Speaker 1: no windows, there's no anyway for this smoke to get out.

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Speaker 1: So you got these idiots who started a fire on

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Speaker 1: the other side, and there's smoke going all through the

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Speaker 1: inside of the dome where we at. So we had

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Speaker 1: to break windows in order for the smoke to get out,

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Speaker 1: just so we could breathe and everybody didn't suffocate up there.

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Speaker 3: How did you break a window?

340
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Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, they have bars around them and it's

341
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Speaker 1: reinforced glass. But we had like a big iron metal

342
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Speaker 1: bar that goes across the shower, and we ended up

343
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Speaker 1: breaking that down out of the wall and use that

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Speaker 1: along with a broom and a mopstick that was up

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Speaker 1: there to just beat on a glass until it put

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Speaker 1: a hole in it. And once it put a hole

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Speaker 1: in it, we just chipped the way at it and

348
00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:36,320
Speaker 1: broke it out. So the bars were still intact, like

349
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Speaker 1: we couldn't get out of the window, but the glass

350
00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:41,640
Speaker 1: itself was broken where we could. Air was able to

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Speaker 1: come in and go out.

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Speaker 3: So that saved everybody's life right there. Literally, you're painting

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Speaker 3: a picture of literally the worst imaginable scenario that anybody

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Speaker 3: could be in. It's dark, it's stifling heat, there's no air.

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Speaker 1: No food, no food, no water over all of.

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Speaker 3: Them, and a storm coming in that just might kill

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Speaker 3: you all.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, by this time the storm had passed when

359
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Speaker 1: the part of the lights and everything went off, the

360
00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:10,920
Speaker 1: storm had passed. Now, with Hurricane Katrina, it wasn't the

361
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Speaker 1: storm itself that caused the flooded. That's why we were

362
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Speaker 1: so lost. Because the storm came, the wind came through,

363
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Speaker 1: the rain came through, the power went out, and then

364
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Speaker 1: it passed and the sun was shining outside. Well, all

365
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Speaker 1: of a sudden, now we're seeing water just coming up

366
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Speaker 1: and up and up and up and up and up,

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Speaker 1: and we're looking out the wind and we're like, man,

368
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Speaker 1: where's all this fucking water coming from? You know, it

369
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Speaker 1: just keeps pouring, raising up and up closer to where

370
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Speaker 1: we are, until eventually it's to the second floor where

371
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Speaker 1: we're at. Well, at the time, the building where I

372
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Speaker 1: was at, we were right next to the coroner's office.

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Speaker 1: We didn't process this at the time because you know,

374
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Speaker 1: you're just not thinking about what it could potentially be.

375
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Speaker 1: We look outside the winter and it's dead bodies floating

376
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Speaker 1: right right around the window right where we are, right

377
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Speaker 1: next to us. There was at least seven dead bodies

378
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Speaker 1: that were floating around out there. So we're like, man,

379
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Speaker 1: this fucking water's coming up. There's no guards, no help,

380
00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:04,240
Speaker 1: no food, no water, and we got dead blodies floating

381
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Speaker 1: around in the window next to us. But there came

382
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Speaker 1: from the corner's office. Because the corner's office, which was

383
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Speaker 1: on the first floor, was completely submerged in water and

384
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Speaker 1: floated up. We didn't realize that until after everything was over.

385
00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,720
Speaker 1: We just in panicked. Now everybody's panicking there's fucking water's

386
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Speaker 1: coming up, there's nobody here with us. We're locked inside

387
00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,560
Speaker 1: of here, literally can't get out. There's dead bodies floating

388
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Speaker 1: around the fucking window next to us, and we don't

389
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Speaker 1: even know if anybody even knows we're here more or

390
00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:31,360
Speaker 1: les's gonna come rescue us and get us out of here.

391
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Speaker 3: What happened to the people on the first floor?

392
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Speaker 1: They had got moved. Oh, that was the one thing

393
00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:38,760
Speaker 1: I give them credit that they were smart enough to do,

394
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Speaker 1: is they moved the people off of the first floor.

395
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Speaker 1: There's a lot of rumors about some people were left

396
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Speaker 1: down there and stuff like that. I'll never know the

397
00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:47,880
Speaker 1: truth on that, because some of the guys who were

398
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Speaker 1: on the first floor edded up on the second floor

399
00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:52,240
Speaker 1: with me where I was at, and they just moved

400
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Speaker 1: them and kind of separated them on different tears. Like

401
00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:56,120
Speaker 1: I said, they to the guys who were off the

402
00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,440
Speaker 1: fourth floor and put them down lower so that they

403
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Speaker 1: can go station themselves on the fourth floor and be

404
00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:02,960
Speaker 1: at the highest point.

405
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Speaker 3: So there were actually cards there with there, they just

406
00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:09,800
Speaker 3: weren't coming us. Because so if I'm I'm going to

407
00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:14,720
Speaker 3: just make an assumption that they probably lived in houses

408
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,720
Speaker 3: that they couldn't stay in because you can't. New Orleans

409
00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:20,119
Speaker 3: is under sea level and we all know, we've all

410
00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,399
Speaker 3: seen the pictures of what happened. So had they stayed home.

411
00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:24,680
Speaker 1: They probably would have been flooded out.

412
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Speaker 3: They were using this as a shelter, exactly the building.

413
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Speaker 3: I'm sure the building is built pretty well.

414
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Speaker 1: That building is not going and it.

415
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Speaker 3: Was no matter what storm comes.

416
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Speaker 1: So they had their family members of You could see

417
00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:36,520
Speaker 1: their family members were up there with them, like you

418
00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,480
Speaker 1: saw kids. You saw women who weren't offices and stuff

419
00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,000
Speaker 1: like that were all staying up there on the force.

420
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Speaker 3: An emergency shelters. So how long were you stuck in

421
00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,399
Speaker 3: this situation? On Friday is when everybody left.

422
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:50,639
Speaker 1: Sunday they left the Sunday left us down on Sunday.

423
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Speaker 1: Wednesday evening is when we finally were taken out of there.

424
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Speaker 3: And so what did you drink?

425
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Speaker 1: You didn't drink anything. You didn't have anything to drink.

426
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Speaker 3: You certainly couldn't drink the water you had the sewage

427
00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:05,200
Speaker 3: in it, right, you had dead bodies floating around.

428
00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:08,440
Speaker 1: So we were all severely dehydrated.

429
00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:09,600
Speaker 3: I mean, and water was up to what was it

430
00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:10,400
Speaker 3: up to your ankles.

431
00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:12,520
Speaker 1: It was about it our ankles. It was about it

432
00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:16,200
Speaker 1: our ankles on the second floor. When it finally stopped,

433
00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:18,800
Speaker 1: it was almost a sigh of relief because we didn't

434
00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:20,880
Speaker 1: know if it was just gonna keep coming up, would

435
00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,800
Speaker 1: just drowned. Yeah, because we couldn't go anywhere, and we tried.

436
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:26,679
Speaker 1: I mean, we ripped down the air conditioning ventilation, there

437
00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,119
Speaker 1: were bars in the wall, we ripped the toilets out

438
00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:31,679
Speaker 1: of the ground, there were bars in the floor. We

439
00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:34,159
Speaker 1: tried to chip through the shop. I mean, that place

440
00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:36,600
Speaker 1: is a real fortress. Like you're not getting out of

441
00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:40,160
Speaker 1: there unless you're going through the guards with keys.

442
00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:46,440
Speaker 3: So seventy two hours of sheer, terror, uncertainty, hunger, thirst.

443
00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:49,879
Speaker 1: Absolutely. You had guys started fighting. They had two guys

444
00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:52,880
Speaker 1: had a knife fight, just because everybody was so stressed

445
00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,480
Speaker 1: out and so on high red alert. Every little thing

446
00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,480
Speaker 1: was taking them off. I actually had taken a sheet

447
00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:00,560
Speaker 1: and rolled on it with a ma because we can

448
00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:02,960
Speaker 1: hear the helicopters flying around and see the helicopters flying

449
00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:04,680
Speaker 1: around outside, and like I said, we didn't even know

450
00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,040
Speaker 1: if anybody knew we were in there. So I had

451
00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:09,280
Speaker 1: taken a sheet and rolle on that you know, people

452
00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,080
Speaker 1: in here need help, and tried to hang it outside

453
00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:13,800
Speaker 1: the balls because you know, we had broken the glass

454
00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:15,760
Speaker 1: and tried to hang it out there, and the officers

455
00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,560
Speaker 1: started shooting at us because we were sticking our hands

456
00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:20,359
Speaker 1: out the balls trying to put a flag out there.

457
00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:22,119
Speaker 1: They started taking potshots.

458
00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:23,800
Speaker 3: At Okay, so there's another thing.

459
00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:25,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, So that that was the end of us trying

460
00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,359
Speaker 1: to send a flag. So now the idea is start

461
00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,600
Speaker 1: another fire, because now we got the winners over. So

462
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:33,520
Speaker 1: now you've got guys who are gonna lit another fire

463
00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:37,960
Speaker 1: and throwing flames like lit a mattress on fire and

464
00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:40,600
Speaker 1: sticking it, hanging it out the balls to try and

465
00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:43,040
Speaker 1: get the attention of the helicopters going around trying to

466
00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:44,680
Speaker 1: just get anybody to come help us.

467
00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:01,240
Speaker 3: It's taking me a minute to price says this. Okay,

468
00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:05,360
Speaker 3: So now I'm sure everybody else that's listening and scratching

469
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:10,520
Speaker 3: their head like I am and going what Yeah, So

470
00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,480
Speaker 3: you didn't drown? No, thank that it was a miracle

471
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,960
Speaker 3: and you you survived this ordeal and ultimately you end

472
00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:22,840
Speaker 3: up getting convicted of second degree murder, yes, sir, and

473
00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,480
Speaker 3: sense to life in prison. And you were twenty years

474
00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:27,160
Speaker 3: old at the time.

475
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:28,919
Speaker 1: I was twenty when I was convicted. I was eighteen

476
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:29,720
Speaker 1: when I was arrested.

477
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,719
Speaker 3: Right, and you get sent to Angola, Yes, I mean

478
00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,120
Speaker 3: it's hard to say what the worst prison is in America,

479
00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,399
Speaker 3: but I think a lot of people who are knowledgeable

480
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,720
Speaker 3: in this field would say that's that strong consideration.

481
00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:43,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's won't be.

482
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:47,800
Speaker 3: Angola is a plantation in the middle of nowhere in

483
00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:52,880
Speaker 3: Louisiana which is named Angola because it originally was a

484
00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:55,760
Speaker 3: slave plantation and the slaves that worked the fields there

485
00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:59,480
Speaker 3: were from Angola, And so it certainly at the time

486
00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,560
Speaker 3: you were there, and I would say probably true to

487
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:06,120
Speaker 3: this day. It still operates basically like a slave plantation.

488
00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:08,080
Speaker 1: Exactly like a slave plantation.

489
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:13,080
Speaker 3: You know, it's so far removed from sight, and people

490
00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:13,880
Speaker 3: go there to die.

491
00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:15,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's its own world.

492
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:17,000
Speaker 3: Most of the people, I think I read some of

493
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,160
Speaker 3: the eighty five percent of people that go there die there.

494
00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:19,879
Speaker 1: Yeah.

495
00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,080
Speaker 3: So I mean you got all kinds of people we

496
00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:24,760
Speaker 3: were talking about before. They've been there. Since the seventies eighties.

497
00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:26,760
Speaker 1: You have about three average, two and a half to

498
00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:28,480
Speaker 1: three people a month die.

499
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,800
Speaker 3: It ain't golden, right, and I was told that during

500
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:35,560
Speaker 3: one particular flood, the Army Corps of Engineers came down

501
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,879
Speaker 3: there and wanted to build some dams or whatever, do

502
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,880
Speaker 3: some dig up some stuff, and they wouldn't let them

503
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:43,439
Speaker 3: in because they had to move some of the bodies

504
00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:45,520
Speaker 3: that they had buried first, because they didn't want to,

505
00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:48,440
Speaker 3: you know, because those people didn't necessarily die of natural causes.

506
00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,719
Speaker 3: So here you are, in one of the worst places

507
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:57,399
Speaker 3: on earth, and with basically no hope of ever going home.

508
00:21:57,600 --> 00:21:59,520
Speaker 1: One thing I can say, though, is that's one thing

509
00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:01,879
Speaker 1: I can't say. I never gave up my hope. I

510
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,320
Speaker 1: never gave up my hope. I think when I was

511
00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:08,679
Speaker 1: convicted and the jury walked past me. When I was convicted, literally,

512
00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,080
Speaker 1: and this is in my minutes, this is in my transcripts.

513
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,959
Speaker 1: I told my judge, Judge Camille Burris, I told her

514
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,080
Speaker 1: I'd rather have a death penalty then spend the rest

515
00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:19,920
Speaker 1: of my life it ain't golden. And I even made

516
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,520
Speaker 1: a statement, I said, Yana, all due respect, that was

517
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:24,560
Speaker 1: exactly what I told her. I'd rather had a death penndy,

518
00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:27,199
Speaker 1: I said, I'd rather y'all kill me. They sent me

519
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:31,480
Speaker 1: up there to wait another fifty sixty years to die.

520
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:33,679
Speaker 1: She just put her head down and kind of, you know,

521
00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:35,560
Speaker 1: motion to the bailiff to get me out of the

522
00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:37,639
Speaker 1: court room. And they took me out of that because

523
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:41,040
Speaker 1: I was just like, man, there's no way. And after that,

524
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:43,879
Speaker 1: probably that first night, I was down on myself, and

525
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:45,560
Speaker 1: then after that I was like, man, I gotta get

526
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:49,800
Speaker 1: out of here. This is crazy, this isn't fair, but

527
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:52,560
Speaker 1: this is my life, and I got to figure out

528
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:53,400
Speaker 1: a way to get out of here.

529
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,399
Speaker 3: You know, it's interesting you sit there and you say, well,

530
00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:00,320
Speaker 3: I had hope, but I'm getting the chill was thinking

531
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:04,960
Speaker 3: about it. But I think most people would lose hope absolutely.

532
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,040
Speaker 3: I mean, it's nobody's vouching for you at this point. Yeah,

533
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:08,800
Speaker 3: you're on your own.

534
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,880
Speaker 1: I'm on my own, man. It's it's total mental gymnastics,

535
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:14,040
Speaker 1: because you want to have hope and you want to

536
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:16,600
Speaker 1: believe that the right thing is going to happen and

537
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,120
Speaker 1: that these people are going to realize that they made

538
00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:20,399
Speaker 1: a mistake and they're gonna realize that you're innocent. But

539
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:24,400
Speaker 1: every day you're waking up next to guys who've been

540
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,399
Speaker 1: in prison since before my mother was born, before your

541
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,119
Speaker 1: mother was before my mother was born. You know, you

542
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,879
Speaker 1: got guys that's been up there forty to fifty sumi years.

543
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 3: Right, and some of them not guilty in the first place,

544
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:37,359
Speaker 3: and some of them, like you said, for minor crimes.

545
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,879
Speaker 3: I mean in Louisiana. Some of the things, some of

546
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,040
Speaker 3: the stories that you hear really just twist your mind around.

547
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, the justice system here is just I don't even

548
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 1: know how to describe it. It's it's very inhuman. It's

549
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 1: it's all about winning and locking people up. It's not

550
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,359
Speaker 1: about actual justice. It's not about finding out the truth.

551
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 1: There's more of a pursuit of so that people can say, look,

552
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 1: I punished this guy. I punished this guy. You know,

553
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:07,239
Speaker 1: we found it, we solved it, and there's no in

554
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,880
Speaker 1: my opinion, real thought to you know, it's like they

555
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 1: do that. They'll give a guy a life sentence and

556
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 1: go home in eat spaghetti like it was nothing, you know,

557
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:17,360
Speaker 1: and not think about it. Man, maybe I really sent

558
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,680
Speaker 1: the wrong person to prison for the rest of their life.

559
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:25,200
Speaker 3: But then this is another very interesting thing about your case,

560
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 3: cause you ended up in a scenario where you found

561
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 3: a way, you found a crack, right, and talk about

562
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 3: that and how you ended up being here. You're sentenced

563
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:39,119
Speaker 3: to life in prison. You're not supposed to be here

564
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:39,440
Speaker 3: right now.

565
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,160
Speaker 1: No, absolutely, I'm not. After I was convicted, I think

566
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 1: i've really I filed my attorney who I had. I

567
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,399
Speaker 1: had another attorney who was working on my appeal. The

568
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,239
Speaker 1: first thing that her and I spoke about, I told her,

569
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:53,959
Speaker 1: I said, listen, I know you probably don't believe I'm innocent.

570
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,200
Speaker 1: I don't think my last lawyer believed I was innocent.

571
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 1: I said, but if you listen to what I'm going

572
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,439
Speaker 1: to tell you, and you help me investigate this like

573
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:03,680
Speaker 1: it should have been investigated, I'll prove to you that

574
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,359
Speaker 1: I am. And so she said, listen, it's not my

575
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 1: job to figure out if you're innocent or not. It's

576
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 1: my job to get you out. I said, all right,

577
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 1: that might not be your job, but it's important to

578
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,919
Speaker 1: me that you know that I am. So I started

579
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 1: talking to people and doing my own kind of investigating

580
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 1: and being I guess you could call my own kind

581
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 1: of jailhouse lawyer and investigator, just finding out everything I

582
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 1: could find out about it, because there were just certain

583
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 1: things that didn't make sense about what the police officer said,

584
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 1: with my case. For one, he said that he was

585
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:34,160
Speaker 1: there to meet up with a confidential informant. My first

586
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 1: thought is, why would you go there to meet up

587
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 1: with a confidential informant Because everything that you know about

588
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:41,359
Speaker 1: me with a confidential informant is that you want to

589
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 1: keep it confidential. You don't want people around to know.

590
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 1: So if you're meeting with a confidential informant in an

591
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,440
Speaker 1: area where there's big time heroin being sealed and there's

592
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:52,960
Speaker 1: all kinds of people outside, if you're a copy and

593
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 1: gonna pull up and pick this guy up and go

594
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 1: sit down and have a talk, why would you go there.

595
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:58,920
Speaker 1: Why wouldn't you meet him anywhere else in the city

596
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 1: that you could meet him at. Why would you go

597
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,719
Speaker 1: right to the dope set and meet up with an

598
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 1: informant and sit down and talk. That just doesn't make sense.

599
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:07,199
Speaker 1: So then I told my turn, I said, we need

600
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,159
Speaker 1: to find out who that informant was, because that's a

601
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,439
Speaker 1: potential witness. So we filed it was called the subpoena

602
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,440
Speaker 1: induceers tech them get the police officer's confidence and informancist.

603
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,400
Speaker 1: As soon as we filed that, they went crazy. They

604
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 1: did not want to turn that over. They did not

605
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 1: want to hand it over. I said, listen, I don't

606
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 1: even need to see it. I don't want to see

607
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 1: it for any reason. Just show it to my lawyer.

608
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,400
Speaker 1: Because this is a potential witness. This is someone who

609
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,160
Speaker 1: they must have been out there. Why aren't they named

610
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 1: in this as a witness. If this cop was sitting

611
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:36,639
Speaker 1: out here and say he saw all so all this

612
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,119
Speaker 1: stuff go on, why isn't the informant who he was

613
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 1: sitting out there with a witness. Also, if this cop,

614
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 1: we've poked holes in his story so many times, and

615
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:45,879
Speaker 1: it's so many things about his story, it don't make sense.

616
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 1: He described me as a black male. The way they

617
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 1: made the scene was I was there when the murder happened,

618
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:52,679
Speaker 1: almost like I sent the guys to do it. I

619
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 1: was out there to make sure it went right and

620
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 1: all this type of stuff. Because the guy was shot

621
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 1: with two different guns. I didn't have any gunpowder of

622
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:00,919
Speaker 1: residues on me. There was only two guns that were found,

623
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 1: because that's, you know, all it was. But then there

624
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:05,159
Speaker 1: was another thing that came up that I saw in

625
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,160
Speaker 1: my police report. Because this was a shootout, I didn't

626
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 1: see it with my own two eyes. But from what

627
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 1: I've been told by my code defendant from other guys,

628
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,160
Speaker 1: it was a shootout. You heard it, Yeah, you could

629
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 1: hear all the shots going on this guy had. He

630
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 1: was shot with a forty five caliber gun and a

631
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 1: thirty eight. All around his body exactly where he's laying,

632
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 1: there are nine millimeter casings all around his body. He

633
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,880
Speaker 1: wasn't shot with a nine milimeter. He had a nine

634
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 1: milimeter that he was shooting at my codefendants with and

635
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 1: they were shooting at each other, and then someone else

636
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:39,919
Speaker 1: came and was shooting at them with the assault rifle

637
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 1: who was one of his friends. This cop claims that

638
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:44,440
Speaker 1: this guy never had a gun. It wasn't a shootout,

639
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 1: it was a hit. It was an execution, a broad

640
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 1: day murder, all this type of stuff that they try

641
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 1: and make, you know, try to tie it in the beat.

642
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,199
Speaker 1: But where did these shellcasings come from? Literally, if I'm

643
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 1: standing here shooting the shellcass, that's where they fall around

644
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 1: where I'm shooting from. There's shellcass all around where he's at,

645
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 1: But it's not from a gun that he was shot with.

646
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 1: It just didn't make sense. So now we started investigating

647
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 1: the where the gun could have possibly been. But this

648
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 1: happened in the middle of the projects where there's a

649
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 1: bunch of people outside, and so of course nobody wants

650
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 1: to come to court and be the witness. But if

651
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 1: there's a gun laying on the ground, somebody's gonna pick

652
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 1: it up. I'm not just gonna leave it out there.

653
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 1: So this is just some of the things that didn't

654
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:21,639
Speaker 1: make sense about my case that I think when the

655
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 1: attorney that high started looking into it, she started saying, Okay,

656
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,160
Speaker 1: maybe there's something here, maybe this guy really is innocent.

657
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 1: Then he comes to my co defendant. He and I

658
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 1: had the severance, which means we got separate trials. He

659
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 1: went to trial, he was convicted. I went to trial.

660
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 1: I was convicted, but it was a separate times. When

661
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 1: he found out I had been convicted, he sent a

662
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 1: letter to my mother, who turned it over to my

663
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 1: attorney and told her that, you know, listen, I just

664
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 1: don't feel right with this. Dang. He didn't have anything

665
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 1: to do with this. He wasn't even there when it happened.

666
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 1: He didn't even know me and this guy with beef,

667
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 1: and he had no idea any of this could have

668
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 1: went on. He's literally just was in the wrong place

669
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,719
Speaker 1: at the wrong time. I can't live with imagining him

670
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: doing the rest of his life in prison and knowing

671
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 1: that he didn't even have anything to do with this.

672
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 1: So my attorney presents it to the judge they called

673
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 1: my co defendant, and he gets on the stand, testifies,

674
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: tells him exactly what I just said, that I didn't

675
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 1: have anything to do with it. It was him and

676
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 1: the other guy that got into a shootout with the guy.

677
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 1: I didn't know that they were even beefing with this

678
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 1: guy more or less because I had just literally I

679
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: was with another friend and he walked up to me

680
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 1: and then just like, oh, you're going that way, let

681
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 1: me get a ride. I'm not thinking anything of it.

682
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 1: I always you know, I've been giving everybody a ride.

683
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 1: You know. I just bought my first call. So he

684
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 1: testifies to that judge orders me a new trial. She

685
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 1: vacates my conviction, orders me a new trial because she

686
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 1: presided over my case. You know, And this is a judge,

687
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 1: and Camille burrys, you can do the research. She doesn't

688
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: overturn convictions. If a jerry finds you guilty, you got

689
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 1: to take that up with the appellate court. She is

690
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 1: not big on granted post conviction relief. She's very conservative.

691
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 1: I have nothing negative to say about her, but she's

692
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 1: a very conservative judge, and she takes jury convictions very seriously.

693
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 1: She vacates my com the district attorney at the time

694
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 1: appeals it to the appellate court. The appellate court overturns

695
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 1: her and reinstates my conviction. So now I went from

696
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 1: life sentence, no life sentence, life sentence again. So you

697
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 1: want to talk about mental gymnastics and trying to keep

698
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 1: your mind right, you know, trying to stay focused. I'm

699
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 1: literally being twisted and pulled upside down. I got my

700
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 1: hopes up. Now my conviction's been overturned. It looks like

701
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 1: I'm going home. He came in there and told him

702
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 1: it was him. It wasn't me. I got to be

703
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 1: about to go home now, right, Yeah. No, No, they

704
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 1: overturned it. They say I should have got him to

705
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 1: testify before I went to trial or at my trial.

706
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 1: I didn't practice due diligence, so therefore it doesn't count.

707
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 3: Right. That's sort of like how there used to be

708
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 3: these laws. Like in Virginia, there was a twenty one

709
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 3: day rule, you know by that, whichpecially meant that after

710
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 3: twenty two days, if the dead guy walked in the

711
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 3: courtroom and was like, hey, wait a minute, you guys

712
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 3: made a mistake. I'm still alive, didn't matter because you're

713
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 3: too late. So that's basically what they were saying. They

714
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 3: wanted you to be basically Clarence Darrow, you know, and

715
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 3: Colombo mixed up in one and produce a witness before

716
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 3: the trial when he was still hoping that he was

717
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 3: going to exact it.

718
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 1: I mean, who can he's hoping that he's going to

719
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 1: get out too. How How am I going to know

720
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 1: that he's going to testify and get up there and

721
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 1: tell them I didn't have anything to do with it.

722
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 1: I mean, what what what co defendant? That doesn't happen

723
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 1: very often. It was me, it wasn't him. Yeah, especially

724
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 1: when it's the rest of his life in prison exact

725
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 1: that he's facing for saying that exactly.

726
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 3: I mean, friends are friends. But that's that's a little much, right,

727
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 3: So on a technicality, they said to you, we don't

728
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 3: really give a fuck.

729
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, go spend the rest of your life in prison anyway.

730
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 3: And next time this happens to you, make sure you

731
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 3: get to us a little bit earlier. Yeah, basically, right,

732
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 3: So now you got that, So then what happens so

733
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 3: because you're here?

734
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So I appealed it to the Supreme Court.

735
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 1: The Supreme Court deniy me, so my conviction is reinstated.

736
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 1: So this is the craziest story I'm about to tell you, Jason.

737
00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 1: And I don't know if you're a spiritual person. I

738
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 1: don't know if anybody listening is spiritual person. But this is,

739
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 1: honest to God, exactly what happened. And the tattoo on

740
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 1: my right arm right here that you're looking at Code

741
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 1: of Criminal Procedure Article eight fifty one point five with

742
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: the angel wings, that's my angel. That was my sent

743
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: from God right there. I'm in prison. I'm in the

744
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 1: whole for a knife fight. I had a fight with

745
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 1: a guy. He pulled a knife out on man stab me.

746
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 1: So I'm in the hole in a cell by myself.

747
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 1: Get the letter from the Supreme Court saying that basically

748
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: you're fucked. We've reviewed it. We felt that the appellate

749
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 1: Court made the right decision. You didn't practice due diligence.

750
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 1: Your convictions reinstated. You got to go spend the rest

751
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 1: of your life in prison. That's basically what they told

752
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 1: me upon getting that letter. I'm in the whole. I

753
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 1: have nothing. I have no books, i have no none

754
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 1: of my legal work with me. I'm just in there,

755
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: basically with myself and in a cell. And I got

756
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 1: down on my knees and I started praying, and I said, God,

757
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 1: I don't know what you're trying to get out of me.

758
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 1: I don't know if you're real, I don't know if

759
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 1: you're listening to me. I don't know anything. All I

760
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 1: know is I don't know how much longer I can

761
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 1: make it like this because I did everything I could do.

762
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: You know, my heart, you know I didn't do this.

763
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 1: You knew I didn't have anything to do with this.

764
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 1: I need some help, please. As I'm on my knees

765
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:16,959
Speaker 1: praying that I had read this auto called the law before.

766
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 1: Just you know, when you're in jail, that's one of

767
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 1: the things you do, especially when you're trying to work

768
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 1: on your case. You read all kinds of stuff in

769
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 1: the law and stuff like that. But I didn't have

770
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 1: a law book in front of me. But for some reason,

771
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 1: this just just kept replaying in my mind over and

772
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 1: over again. And I'm not trying to sound like because

773
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 1: I'm not some super holy religious person anything like that.

774
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 1: I believe in God. I believe in spiritual life and stuff,

775
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 1: but man, I'm, you know, far from a preacher anything

776
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 1: like that. But I'm telling you, I believe in my

777
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 1: whole heart that was God speaking to me in my

778
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 1: head about this allticulored law right here. So I go

779
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 1: to court for my hearing to put everything on the

780
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 1: record to state, you know, basically on the record with

781
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court had said, and they're ruling and they're

782
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 1: going to reinstate my conviction and send me back to

783
00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 1: Angola for the rest of my life. As I go

784
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 1: in there, my attorney I bring it up to her.

785
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 1: I said, you know, are you familiar with Cote of

786
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 1: Criminal Procedure Article eight fifty one five And she's like, no,

787
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 1: not really. And this is a woman who's been an

788
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 1: attorney for over twenty five years. At the time, she

789
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 1: was not only an assistant district attorney who prosecuted people.

790
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 1: Then she went and she was an attorney, a defense attorney,

791
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 1: worked all kind of federal cases. Lourd White's she's now

792
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 1: chief judge of criminal court. She knows as shit. She

793
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 1: knows the law right, She wasn't familiar with it. She said,

794
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 1: tell me what it says.

795
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 3: And your education at this point was what eighth grade.

796
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 3: I had a ged okay, okay, bring it to that.

797
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,280
Speaker 1: Yeah. I bring it to her, and she's like, well,

798
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:42,839
Speaker 1: I mean all she could do is say, I mean what,

799
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 1: they're going to give your life anyway, there's nothing else

800
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 1: they can do. We might as well try it. So

801
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 1: I said, yeah, just go up to her and talk

802
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,879
Speaker 1: to her and see what she'll do. So she has

803
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:52,920
Speaker 1: to tell the assistant district attorney that she's going to

804
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 1: go to the judge and ask for continuing so that

805
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 1: she can file a formal motion based upon this order

806
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,720
Speaker 1: called the law. The prosecutor at the turns and looks

807
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,399
Speaker 1: at me when she says it. She turned it and looked

808
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 1: at me in my face and started laughing in my face,

809
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 1: basically trying to make me feel like, you idiot, What

810
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 1: do you know about the law? You know, because I

811
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:13,239
Speaker 1: guess she had told you, my client wants me to

812
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 1: raise this issue. What whatever. She goes up there, talks

813
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 1: to the judge to judge says, you know what, I

814
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 1: want to hear more about that that sounds intriguing. Grants

815
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 1: me a continuance. We filed emotion. The state opposers at YadA, YadA, YadA.

816
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 1: We go back, we rule, she grants me another neutrial.

817
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,399
Speaker 1: A judge who I can't name, one other person she's

818
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 1: granted a new trial for grants me a second neutrial,

819
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 1: this time based upon this order called a law right here.

820
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:38,319
Speaker 1: So now, as bad as I want to get my

821
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 1: hopes up, like okay, this might really be it, I'm thinking,

822
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 1: you know what, I went through this before and the

823
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 1: appellate court shot me down and they reinstated it. Let

824
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 1: me see how this is going to play out. Goes

825
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 1: back in front the same Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals.

826
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 1: What happens. They uphold it, They say, yes, you have

827
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 1: to give them a new trial. They appeal it to

828
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,120
Speaker 1: the same Supreme Court that upheld it before and that

829
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 1: I had to go do life. The Supreme Court comes

830
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: back and says, we uphold it, you have to grant

831
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:08,359
Speaker 1: them a new trial. So they finally grant me a

832
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 1: new trial. So I get a new trial, and I'm thinking,

833
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 1: all right, this is it. You know, I got a

834
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 1: new trial. My co defendant confessed, said I didn't have

835
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 1: anything to do with it. They gotta be about to

836
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 1: let me go home now, right. This is two thousand

837
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 1: and eight.

838
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 3: By the way, people that listened to the show, No,

839
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 3: I've never he this quiet for this long. But I'm

840
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 3: just sitting here like my eyes blazed over, like the

841
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 3: yeah story is this?

842
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:31,799
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah yeah, so and you can read about this.

843
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 1: This is fact. This is on my docketmaster. You can

844
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,360
Speaker 1: read about this. So they changed the prosecutors on my

845
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 1: case because that's what they do every so often. So

846
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 1: I get two new prosecutors on my case, one of

847
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 1: whom as I'm in one of my hearings, because they

848
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 1: saying they're gonna take me to trial again. This is

849
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:49,959
Speaker 1: after my appeal has been granted. I get a new trial.

850
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,359
Speaker 1: They still won't just drop it. They saying they have

851
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 1: you know, they might bring me to trial. They deciding

852
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 1: what they're going to do. So I'm sitting in prison

853
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:58,799
Speaker 1: all this time waiting. She goes to my mother and

854
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:02,279
Speaker 1: tells my mother, ma'am, I know you've been through a

855
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 1: lot with this. We're gonna drop it. The worst thing

856
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:06,839
Speaker 1: might happen is we're gonna give him credit for time

857
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 1: serve and he plead to all lesser charge and will

858
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 1: let him out. Tells that to my mother, the district attorney,

859
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 1: not my lawyer or not someone who works for the state.

860
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 1: The lady who's prosecuting me, goes and tells that to

861
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,279
Speaker 1: my mother. This is in September two thousand and eight,

862
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 1: when I'm about to go to court. So I'm like,

863
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 1: this is it. You know, I'm gone. I'm about to

864
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 1: get out the day before I'm about to go to

865
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,919
Speaker 1: court for that. I'm on my tier in my cell

866
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:31,439
Speaker 1: right at the time, I was called a tear rep

867
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 1: in a prison, which is basically I'm in charge of,

868
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 1: you know, stuff on a tier, making sure everything goes right.

869
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 1: They had two officers that came down there. They had

870
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 1: a guy that yelled something out the gate. And I

871
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:42,840
Speaker 1: had been talking to one of the officers because he

872
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 1: used to work in my court section, and He's asking

873
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: me what's going on my case, and so I'm telling

874
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 1: him like, yeah, man, I'm about to get out. I

875
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 1: go to court tomorrow. They saying they're gonna drop and

876
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 1: give me credit for time serve. I'm about to go home. Well,

877
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 1: the other officer hears him saying that. He comes over

878
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 1: there and calls me to come back there. Ask me

879
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 1: who was the guy who just yells I, man, I

880
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 1: don't know. You know, you don't tell on people. You know,

881
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 1: that's that's just a rule. It's just you know, you're

882
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:07,000
Speaker 1: not supposed to tell on another man. So he takes

883
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 1: me out. They bring me in a closet and lock

884
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 1: me in there, beat the dog shit out of me.

885
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 1: Says I know you're supposed to go home tomorrow. I

886
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 1: want you to hit me back so I can rebook you.

887
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:18,919
Speaker 1: I'm gonna make sure you're never go home. In my mind,

888
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 1: I'm feeling like this is my test. I'm like, you

889
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 1: know what I said, I don't even want to hit

890
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 1: you. You're not even worth it. I said, you don't even

891
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 1: hit hard enough to make me hit you. All I

892
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 1: want is my freedom. I don't care what you do

893
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,719
Speaker 1: to me. I'm going home tomorrow. Beat the dog shit

894
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:34,279
Speaker 1: out of me. It's in my medical you know, they

895
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:36,279
Speaker 1: send me to medical or whatever. I didn't have any

896
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:37,920
Speaker 1: right up. I didn't even do anything wrong. They just

897
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:39,319
Speaker 1: did it because they thought I was about to get out,

898
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,160
Speaker 1: and they were trying to get me to get another charge.

899
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 1: I go to court the next day. They changed prosecutors again,

900
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 1: and this time the one that comes on my case says,

901
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 1: no deals, We're taking them to trial again. So now

902
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 1: I got my hopes up again. This is September two

903
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 1: thousand and eight, and now I'm just like but I'm like,

904
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 1: I can't give up because I feel like, I know

905
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 1: this conviction didn't get overturned for nothing. So in my mind,

906
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 1: I'm like, all right, well we're gonna go to trialing

907
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna call my code defendant and understand this

908
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 1: time he's gonna come testifying front the jury. And they

909
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 1: got this same police officer who's saying he's gonna, you know,

910
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,799
Speaker 1: he's gonna testify and say what he saw. So I'm

911
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:19,880
Speaker 1: getting ready preparations to go to trial again. I was

912
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 1: supposed to go to trial November of two thousand and eight.

913
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,799
Speaker 1: Two days before I'm supposed to go to trial, I

914
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 1: have a meet with my attorney. She's literally in tears

915
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 1: begging me to take a plea Barkin, and I'm telling him,

916
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 1: you know, man, I just I just I don't want

917
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:39,959
Speaker 1: to give up. You know, I feel like we fought

918
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,160
Speaker 1: all this, you know, we got it going. I'm innocent.

919
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 1: She's like, I know you're an innocent thing. She's like,

920
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 1: but I'm telling you right now it's your word and

921
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 1: your friend's word against a cop, and I don't believe

922
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 1: that they're gonna believe y'all. She's like, listen, I've been

923
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 1: doing this a long time. She's like, I'm just telling you.

924
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 1: It's a gut instinct. I have them. She's like, if

925
00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 1: you go to trial again, I think you're gonna get

926
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:00,799
Speaker 1: convicted again. She's like, you need to take this plea.

927
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 1: Please take this plea. So I thought about it. I

928
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: thought he about it. I fought with it. I said,

929
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,920
Speaker 1: all right, I take the plea. The plea bargain they

930
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 1: offered me was I plead guilty to manslaughter. Right. They

931
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:13,799
Speaker 1: put a cap on it at fifteen years, and leave

932
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 1: it up to my judge to sentence me to say,

933
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,399
Speaker 1: you know what she's gonna sentence me to. They're gonna

934
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:22,320
Speaker 1: do a pre sentenced investigation, you know, look into my background,

935
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 1: looking to my housing, you know, talk to me. The

936
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:26,839
Speaker 1: probation people, come talk to me all this and leave

937
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:28,359
Speaker 1: it up to the judge who's giving me two new

938
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 1: trials on what she's gonna give me. So I'm thinking, okay,

939
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 1: you know I should be all right, I should at

940
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:37,319
Speaker 1: least get out on this right go to court. When

941
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 1: I go to court from my sentence and they have

942
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 1: a man in there who they're saying, is that the

943
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 1: guy who was killed? They're saying it was his father.

944
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:46,279
Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you about this. This is crazy. I

945
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:48,439
Speaker 1: still to this day don't believe this was this guy's dad.

946
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 3: Actor.

947
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, they don't have the same name. I don't even

948
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 1: believe he could tell you what the guy looks like.

949
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 1: They put him on the stand. He gets up there

950
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,479
Speaker 1: and says, I've had two heart attacks and a stroke

951
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 1: since my un died. The family can't get over it.

952
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:05,240
Speaker 1: We're so hurt, heartbroken. He needs to be in prison

953
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 1: for the rest of his life. Why are y'all considering

954
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:07,759
Speaker 1: letting him out?

955
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:12,360
Speaker 3: He didn't say, we really miss a convicted murdering major

956
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:13,360
Speaker 3: heroin dealing.

957
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, so check this out.

958
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:18,920
Speaker 3: He say that he made it sound like it was

959
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 3: a choir boy exactly.

960
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:24,319
Speaker 1: So my attorney says, well, sir, all due respect to

961
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 1: you and your family. All due respect to what y'all lost.

962
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:30,360
Speaker 1: Your son was convicted of manslaughter. Also, he served six years.

963
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:33,800
Speaker 1: You felt like that was an adequate sentence for him.

964
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:36,319
Speaker 1: Why are you so opposed to this man getting the

965
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 1: same amount of time for the time that your son

966
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 1: did for the same crime. My son's never been in

967
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 1: jail before in his life. Everybody looks, even the DA

968
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:47,920
Speaker 1: looks like they're like, oh shit, we're busted. My son's

969
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:49,359
Speaker 1: never been in jail before. I don't know what y'all

970
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 1: talking about. You don't know your son was in prison

971
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:53,840
Speaker 1: for six years. You don't know your son was arrested

972
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 1: for murder. Do you know who they even talking about

973
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 1: right now? Who the fuck are you, dude? What are

974
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,879
Speaker 1: you even doing here? So the judge gets mad, She says,

975
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 1: you know what, We're not going to go through this

976
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 1: line of question. You're badgering this witness. They stayed objects

977
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:06,960
Speaker 1: to it. They say, you don't have to answer that, sir,

978
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:09,400
Speaker 1: and he's adamant. My son was never in jail. My

979
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 1: son was never in jail. It was some crackhead looking

980
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 1: dude off the street. I don't know if they told

981
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 1: him that I killed his son and it was somebody else.

982
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:18,360
Speaker 1: I don't know if he was just an actor. I

983
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 1: don't know what the story was, but this didn't make

984
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 1: any fucking sense. Wow, he gets off the stand. The

985
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 1: judge's mad. She gives me fifteen years. So now, even

986
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,319
Speaker 1: the parole officer who came and talked to me, who

987
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:35,840
Speaker 1: did the pre sense investigation, told me his recommendation was

988
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 1: no more than ten years, but he didn't feel like

989
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 1: it was necessary to keep me in any longer. He

990
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 1: wouldn't have a problem with me getting credit for Tom

991
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 1: sertin getting out. Not only did she disregard that, Now

992
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 1: I gotta go through another seven years in prison before

993
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 1: I can get.

994
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 3: Out this story, ladies and gentlemen, his I don't even

995
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 3: know what to say.

996
00:42:54,640 --> 00:43:08,759
Speaker 4: I don't have the right words. You know.

997
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:12,359
Speaker 3: One of the reasons that I really wanted to have

998
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 3: you on the show is that we are in the

999
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 3: midst of a lot of different crises in the criminal

1000
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:22,799
Speaker 3: justice system in America right now, but one of them

1001
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 3: is something called the guilty plea problem. And people don't

1002
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 3: realize that ninety five percent of the felony convictions in

1003
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:34,239
Speaker 3: the United States are obtained through guilty. Police on a

1004
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 3: much more mundane level on much lesser crimes than dealing

1005
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 3: with lesser sentences. Every day, all day in all these

1006
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 3: courts in the country, tens of thousands of people every

1007
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,359
Speaker 3: day are faced with the same problem that you had,

1008
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:50,719
Speaker 3: which is their attorney. And here in New Orleans we

1009
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,560
Speaker 3: know that last year there were fifty two public defenders

1010
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 3: who dealt with twenty thousand cases. Do the math. So

1011
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 3: a lot of those public defenders who are underpaid, overworked,

1012
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 3: that's madness, that's anarchy. So these people who are doing

1013
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 3: something that I could only say is noble, are out

1014
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 3: there every day, happened to meet with their clients, sometimes

1015
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 3: for the first time on the day of their trial

1016
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:19,239
Speaker 3: and say to them, to the next Daniel, listen, the

1017
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:21,919
Speaker 3: best thing for you to do is plea guilty. And

1018
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 3: that person, that kid is going but them innocent. They're going,

1019
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 3: I know, but they're going to throw the book at you.

1020
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 3: And so we are filling the prisons in jails with

1021
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 3: people who are innocent. Because of the fact that our

1022
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:40,399
Speaker 3: public defender system is broken, as well as the rest

1023
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 3: of the system, the scales of justice are so tilted

1024
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:47,440
Speaker 3: in the favor of the prosecution. You were playing. Actually

1025
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:51,240
Speaker 3: the highest stakes game of poker than anybody ever played,

1026
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 3: other than the death sentence, because you had to either

1027
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 3: put all your cars on the table and literally bet

1028
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 3: your life, literally bet your life, and you would be

1029
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 3: betting against a dealer that you know cheats.

1030
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1031
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 1: Absolutely, you know they're hiding cards and there's nothing I

1032
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:08,640
Speaker 1: can do about them cheating.

1033
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 3: And this was your last year.

1034
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:11,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's what the attorneys tell you. They told

1035
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:13,399
Speaker 1: it to me, and I've heard I hear them say

1036
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:15,239
Speaker 1: it all the time because I work at criminal court.

1037
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 1: Now it's like, do you want to take a chance

1038
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:19,320
Speaker 1: with the rest of your life? Yeah, you may be innocent,

1039
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:21,719
Speaker 1: you might not have done this crime, but look at

1040
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 1: what you're facing. If this jury doesn't happen to believe you,

1041
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 1: if they win, this is what you're gonna have. So

1042
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:30,239
Speaker 1: do you want to take that chance and think you're

1043
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:31,880
Speaker 1: gonna win? Or do you want to take this lesser

1044
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:34,840
Speaker 1: of two evils and at least know that you're getting

1045
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:37,240
Speaker 1: out one day or know what your fate.

1046
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:39,480
Speaker 3: Is gonna be because the work you're doing now it's fantastic.

1047
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 3: Tell us about that.

1048
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 1: All right, Well, it's kind of twofold. I work for

1049
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:47,840
Speaker 1: a criminal court now actually ironically the same criminal court

1050
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:50,320
Speaker 1: where I was convicted of second agree murder, which in

1051
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:54,239
Speaker 1: Louisiana is a mandatory life sentence, mandatory life, mandatory life.

1052
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 3: And that's my first degree murder.

1053
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:58,440
Speaker 1: No, no, no, sir, that's second degree, second degree. I am

1054
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 1: now the one of the cases managers for a re

1055
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:04,359
Speaker 1: entry program, which is a program that was instituted by

1056
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:07,839
Speaker 1: Judge Lurid White. It's an alternative to long term incarceration

1057
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:11,439
Speaker 1: for drug offenders and people who you know, have been

1058
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:15,240
Speaker 1: convicted maybe a few times for selling drugs, burglary, stuff

1059
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 1: like that. As of now, the program has no quote

1060
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 1: unquote violent offenders in it. These guys in Louisiana. There

1061
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 1: are men right now in Louisiana State Penitentiary who've been

1062
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:25,520
Speaker 1: there since the seventies and the eighties.

1063
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 3: For heroin drugs, just drugs, no violence.

1064
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 1: No violence, none whatsoever. And most of them is very

1065
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:34,840
Speaker 1: small amounts of drugs, less than a gram, less than

1066
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:35,279
Speaker 1: an ounce.

1067
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 3: I really admire the work that you're doing, thank you.

1068
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:41,920
Speaker 3: And it's really typical of the exenrees that have been

1069
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 3: on the show and the group of exguneries' ex Hoonnery

1070
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 3: Nation at large that you are devoting yourself to helping

1071
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 3: other people. Yes, sir, it's so interesting that the group

1072
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 3: of people that you could say are the most wronged

1073
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 3: by society of anyone are the ones who are contributing

1074
00:46:57,560 --> 00:46:59,959
Speaker 3: almost more to society as a group than any other group.

1075
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:01,840
Speaker 1: I appreciate that.

1076
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 3: And now you have to wear that scarlet letter. You're

1077
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:10,960
Speaker 3: not technically an exonery even though you're innocent. And in

1078
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 3: eighty four percent of the DNA exoneration plea cases, the

1079
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:20,320
Speaker 3: alternate perpetrator was identified. So you had somebody who pleaded

1080
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 3: guilty and was proven innocent, and the altual perpetrator was

1081
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 3: later identified. So there's in case there was ever any

1082
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 3: doubt about the depth of the problem, the series is

1083
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 3: the problem, and about the fact that it happens. There

1084
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 3: you go and in your case, it's actually that's sort

1085
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:35,440
Speaker 3: of a similar case too, even though it's not a

1086
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:38,399
Speaker 3: DNA case. But the actual perpetrator was right there going, hey,

1087
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 3: look at me, I'm the guy. I mean, that would

1088
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:43,719
Speaker 3: seem to be pretty strong evidence for any court to

1089
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 3: look at. But you know, look, the fact is you're here,

1090
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:51,440
Speaker 3: You somehow or other survived. Let's just let's just look

1091
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:53,560
Speaker 3: back at this for a second. Of what we've discussed

1092
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:57,800
Speaker 3: over the last hour. You survived a shootout, a corrupt

1093
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:00,160
Speaker 3: system that wanted to put you away for the rest

1094
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 3: of your life for something that they knew they you

1095
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 3: didn't do, a hurricane, a flood, almost being roasted to death,

1096
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 3: almost dying of smoke inhalation, being shot at, being stabbed,

1097
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:14,920
Speaker 3: being beaten. Did we mention almost dying of thirst? I

1098
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:18,319
Speaker 3: think we left that one out. Then you survived the

1099
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:21,319
Speaker 3: worst prison in the worst criminal justice system in the

1100
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:27,400
Speaker 3: western world, and another series of trials that were rigged

1101
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:31,840
Speaker 3: against you with an eighth grade education, just to sum

1102
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 3: up one more time, and then from somewhere in the

1103
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:43,360
Speaker 3: depths of your consciousness or subconscious you pulled an obscure

1104
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 3: legal doctrine right statute that I've never heard of that

1105
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 3: I would bet if we went to Stanford Law School

1106
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:55,719
Speaker 3: right now and whipped that out, they'd be like, everybody

1107
00:48:55,719 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 3: be scrambling for their textbooks, Like, what the that you

1108
00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 3: managed to get yourself free? What the hell can I say?

1109
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:06,360
Speaker 3: You have all my respect, and I think it's incredible

1110
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:09,319
Speaker 3: that you're here sharing the story, and I think there's

1111
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 3: a lot more that we have to do together. Because

1112
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:13,840
Speaker 3: there's a lot of messages here. It's gonna take me

1113
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 3: a while to process this. All I can do now

1114
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 3: is ask you, is there any final thought that you

1115
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:22,840
Speaker 3: would like to share with the audience before we sign on?

1116
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:25,080
Speaker 1: I guess you know. My biggest thing that I tell

1117
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 1: people ever did is you never know what you can

1118
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:28,839
Speaker 1: deal with until you don't have a choice, no matter

1119
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:30,759
Speaker 1: what's going on in your life. You know, whether you're

1120
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:33,360
Speaker 1: listening to this and you're dealing with cancer, you're dealing

1121
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:35,720
Speaker 1: with incarceration, are you dealing with the loss of someone

1122
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:37,879
Speaker 1: that you're dealing with, you know, a loss of a job,

1123
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 1: or there just anything in your life. It seems like

1124
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 1: it's insurmountable. If you still have breath in your body,

1125
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 1: you can still fighting and you can still win. Don't

1126
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 1: give up on.

1127
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 3: Yourself, don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever

1128
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:58,359
Speaker 3: you get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a

1129
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:01,359
Speaker 3: proud donor to the Innocis and I really hope you'll

1130
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:04,840
Speaker 3: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping

1131
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:08,880
Speaker 3: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocentsproject dot org

1132
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 3: to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like

1133
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:14,800
Speaker 3: to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.

1134
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:17,400
Speaker 3: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR

1135
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:20,480
Speaker 3: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on

1136
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:25,320
Speaker 3: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.

1137
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:28,760
Speaker 3: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava

1138
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 3: for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one