1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 2 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:11,480 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. 3 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:13,400 Speaker 1: Time to go into the vault for a classic episode 4 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: of the show. This one originally aired on August nineteen, 5 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:21,759 Speaker 1: and it's about that dream where you're back in school. Yes, 6 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: this is a fun one because this was exactly a 7 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: year ago. Uh. And also it's just a really it's 8 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: a really fun episode that we can all relate to. 9 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: I think we got more listener mail about this episode 10 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: than maybe any other, at least in the past few years. 11 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: Would wouldn't you agree, Like everybody wanted to tell us 12 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:40,839 Speaker 1: about school dreams. Yeah, and I want to hear about him. 13 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:43,200 Speaker 1: And yes, if you're hearing this episode for the first 14 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 1: time or the first time in exactly one year, I 15 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: want to hear about your updates, so and hear about 16 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: your new dreams. You're walking down the hall alone, your 17 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: shoes squeak against the hard, seamless flooring. You have a 18 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: sense of otherworldly dread, a feeling of looming over a 19 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:04,760 Speaker 1: drop so far you can't see the bottom, but you 20 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:09,399 Speaker 1: can't remember why where are you? You can't remember that either, 21 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 1: The feeling of dread is absolutely oppressive. It's weighing you down, 22 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 1: as if to pull your soul into the underworld. But 23 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 1: wait that feeling. It's not dread weighing you down. It's 24 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 1: a backpack full of heavy textbooks. You're in your high school. 25 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:29,960 Speaker 1: You're alone in the hall because you're late for class. 26 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: That's right now, You remember you had to go back 27 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 1: to high school because it turns out you never actually finished. 28 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 1: There was an error with the paperwork in the high 29 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 1: school office, and somehow they let you graduate even though 30 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: you never took the final exam in your hardest class, 31 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: Russian calculus. You have to go back and take the exam, 32 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 1: and if you don't pass, you'll be stuck in high 33 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 1: school forever. Let's see what do we learn in Russian calculus? 34 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: You can barely recall some vague cyrillic operating symbols. What 35 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: was the division symbol? No time to think about it, 36 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: You sprint to the classroom where they're holding the exam. 37 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: Once you get there, you remember you're not the only one. 38 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: Your next door neighbor, Jimmy, who's seventy four years old 39 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 1: and illegally burns trash in a metal drum in his backyard. 40 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: He also has to come back and take the Rustcal exam. 41 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: Jimmy asks did you study? You did not? And that 42 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: coffee shop barista with the Optimus Prime tattoo who you 43 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:29,920 Speaker 1: went on a date with a couple of years ago, 44 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: they're here too, except now they're dating your childhood best friend. 45 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:38,799 Speaker 1: And who's administering the exam? That's right, it's your old 46 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:43,639 Speaker 1: rust Cal teacher, Christopher Lambert. Mr Lambert is asking everyone 47 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: to take their seats. The panic rushes up from your 48 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: gut into your throat. Is there any way out of this? 49 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 1: Your hand bolts up. Mr Lambert calls on you. He says, yes, 50 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,119 Speaker 1: when is it? And the whole class turns to look 51 00:02:56,160 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 1: at you, scrutinizing, crinkling their noses in pity and disgust 52 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: ust at what they see. Then you realize you're not 53 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 1: sitting at a desk, your pants are down, and you're 54 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: sitting on a toilet in the middle of the classroom. 55 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:11,239 Speaker 1: Why would they put a toilet here? But no time 56 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: to wonder about that. The class is laughing viciously at 57 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:17,279 Speaker 1: your shame, and Christopher Lambert is passing out the exams. 58 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:20,920 Speaker 1: You didn't bring a pencil, Sandra Bullock won't let you 59 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 1: borrow one, neither, well Ken Griffey Jr. The test is starting, 60 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 1: Mr lamb Berry Yell's eyes on your own paper. A 61 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: single tooth falls from your mouth and lands on page one. 62 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. A production of 63 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 1: I Heart Radios has to work. Hey you, Welcome to 64 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Land 65 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: and I'm Joe McCormick. And obviously you can tell that 66 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: we are going to be talking about the one, the only, 67 00:03:56,160 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: the high school horror Dream. Yeah, yeah, the which is 68 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: really the worst. I have a lot of disdain for 69 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 1: the high school Dream because then I'll get into more 70 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: of it later. But but basically, it's like when you 71 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: when you go when you dream, you can do anything, 72 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: You can be anything, Like this is the place where 73 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: lucid dreaming is possible, where all the boundaries can dissolve, 74 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: and all the limitations that you know in the waking 75 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: world can just be swept away and you can ascend 76 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 1: into the skies of being of pure light and energy. Uh. 77 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: But instead, what does our mind do when we slumber? 78 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:36,159 Speaker 1: So much of the time we have dreams like this, 79 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:39,599 Speaker 1: we you know, dreams that are just cobbled together out 80 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: of the mundane garbage of our lives into a form 81 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 1: that does not fill us with wonder or even even terror. 82 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: You know, like for a lot of people, it fills 83 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 1: them with terror. It depends they're sort of like they're 84 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 1: sort of like low stress, low anxiety, high school dreams. 85 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 1: But when you read a lot of people's accounts of these, 86 00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: they're like they wake up in a cold sweat, they're absolute, 87 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: really petrified. This is something that I think is worth 88 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 1: discussing a little bit because when you when when you 89 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 1: look at what the surveys of what people have dreamt about, 90 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: and there are different ways of conducting those surveys, so 91 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:14,720 Speaker 1: it's there's going to be a fair amount of variety 92 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:16,840 Speaker 1: there anyway, and it's a lot of it's also going 93 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:19,840 Speaker 1: to depend on who you're talking to. As we've discussed 94 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 1: on the on the show before, a lot of studies 95 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: like this, especially psychological studies, they're often conducted with college 96 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,719 Speaker 1: students and small sample sizes, and that brings a you know, 97 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:32,600 Speaker 1: it brings a lot of limitations and what kind of 98 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:37,039 Speaker 1: life experiences the dreams then are are ascending from. But 99 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 1: but I was looking around a little bit thinking about Okay, 100 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: it seems like we're often not talking about nightmares. There's 101 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: like a variety of dream that is, you know, filled 102 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:51,159 Speaker 1: with anxiety or even dread without actually really breaking over 103 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 1: into this room that we think of as the domain 104 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 1: of nightmares. I guess that depends on the definition you'd use, 105 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:00,279 Speaker 1: because I've always thought of nightmares as including dreams that 106 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 1: are not like, uh, you know, like immediate physical peril. 107 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: I mean, there are violent dreams that people obviously think 108 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:08,720 Speaker 1: of as nightmares. Like one of the most common themes 109 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 1: of bad dreams is being chased by something. Right, but 110 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: they're you know, a huge number of people's really bad 111 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 1: dreams are about like are about like public embarrassment or 112 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 1: about things like having to go back to school and 113 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 1: face some kind of scrutiny or examination. Yeah. But yet 114 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 1: when you look at the surveys to deal with the 115 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: content of nightmares, we don't often see, you know, a 116 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 1: real definite place for the school dream. For instance. Uh. 117 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:40,279 Speaker 1: In the nineteen thirty psychologist whole See case and conducted 118 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 1: a survey of nightmares and found their contents to be 119 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:47,279 Speaker 1: uh like twenty seven percent dealing with animals seven percent, 120 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: being chased at death and murder at and then it 121 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: goes down to home and family falling and then miscellaneous 122 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 1: nineteen percent, accidents seventeen percent. And you see similar things 123 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: with other surveys. There's a Harvard psychologists Didra Barrett's survey 124 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:08,840 Speaker 1: and it UH said like being chased with seventy two 125 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 1: death of family members in for six percent following UH 126 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: monsters and or animals made it on their thirty three 127 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: percent war, violent crimes, natural disaster. And then there's been 128 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: others that the kind of match this this sort of thing, 129 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: you know, it's like physical harm, physical danger. Um. I 130 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: did find a two thousand UH inten German study from 131 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: the Central Institute of Mental Health and Mannheim, Germany that 132 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: said nightmares okay, forty percent following being chased feeling paralyzed, 133 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: but also twenty four percent being late to an important event, 134 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: which definitely lines up with a lot of what we're 135 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: talking about here, because so often the content is I 136 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 1: am I am late to the exam right um, or 137 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: I have I've let time slip away in advance of 138 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: the them. So yeah, it is going to come back 139 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: to like, how do we classify nightmares, and what do 140 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: we think of when we think of nightmares, and then 141 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: after we've had one of these school dreams, how we 142 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 1: classify it. But I think there's a strong case to 143 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: be made that that what we're talking about here isn't 144 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: a nightmare. And yet at the same time, I myself 145 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: find myself at times wishing it were, because at least 146 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 1: if it were a nightmare, it would it would feel 147 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 1: more more potent, you know, it would feel like it's 148 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: maybe doing something that it's cathartic in a way that matters, 149 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: instead of being this just ridiculous rehearsal for a thing 150 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: that is that is not going to occur. You know. Well, 151 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: this brings us back to a question, of course we're 152 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 1: gonna have to touch on throughout the episode today, and 153 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:45,679 Speaker 1: unfortunately we're not gonna be able to answer in the 154 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: definitive way. But like, what is the purpose of the 155 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 1: content of dreams, if anything to be in with I mean, 156 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 1: do that we know that like sleep and dreaming are 157 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 1: obviously important for some kind of neurological function, but we 158 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 1: don't know if the contents of dreams are important, and 159 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: we don't know if they are important why are they important? 160 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:09,679 Speaker 1: What do they do right? And and yeah, once you 161 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 1: you can sort of divide into two schools of thought 162 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 1: where it's either the contents of the dreams do matter 163 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: or they don't um and when you get into the 164 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 1: various arguments for them actually mattering, and then you get 165 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: into various divisions on the show, we've discussed the writings 166 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: of Frederick van Eden in the past too wrote Study 167 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: of Dreams, and this was a book that outlined lucid dreaming, 168 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: for instance, but you know he covered everything from you know, 169 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: ordinary dreams to symbolic dreams, demon dreams and more so. Yeah, 170 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 1: it depends on it depends on which view you're taking. 171 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: Either the content matters or it doesn't, and then if 172 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: it if it does matter, There's so many ways to 173 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: unpack that. But I would say, actually, whether the content 174 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: of dreams matters or not, like whether what you dream 175 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:00,319 Speaker 1: about actually has adaptive value in life or there it's 176 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 1: just sort of like a byproduct of something going on 177 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: in the brain. And you know, what happens in a 178 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: dream has no effect on life or no positive effects 179 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: either way you split it. It's an interesting question to ask, 180 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 1: why do we dream about the things that we dream about, 181 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: like why is that the content, whether it's adaptive or not. Well, 182 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: it comes back to the nightmare thing, like so much 183 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:24,680 Speaker 1: of the time, I feel like the school you know, 184 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:27,719 Speaker 1: sometimes we we do have dramatic events, uh in our 185 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 1: school history, but a lot of times we don't. And 186 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: yet that's the stuff that still remains like so potent 187 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: to us in our dreams. And I think that can 188 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: be the irritating thing, Like why am I still dreaming 189 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 1: about this thing? This thing is solved high school, you 190 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: know is solved. You know, it's I've I've I've been 191 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: out of it for you know, decades. Why do I 192 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: still return to it in dream? What is it about 193 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,559 Speaker 1: that experience or that time in my life? Maybe the 194 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 1: plasticity of my mind that that makes that the the 195 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:00,719 Speaker 1: the the fabric of my dreams. Yeah, So I want 196 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 1: to talk about a few common variations. I think just 197 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 1: from what I've read anecdotally, I've not been able to 198 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 1: find a rigorous study characterizing the nature of school anxiety dreams, 199 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 1: but I have found some informal collections of anecdotes, and 200 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:16,959 Speaker 1: based on that, and I have to say, some very 201 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:19,559 Speaker 1: common dreams are Uh, I have to go back to 202 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 1: high school and finish a class or a test that 203 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: I never finished, and I don't know in like, there's 204 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 1: the knowledge that I am an adult, but I have 205 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: to go back and do this. Yes, I've definitely done 206 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:32,439 Speaker 1: that one. I've I've definitely had that one, and I've 207 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 1: done that one to a certain extent because I went 208 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: back after college and taught high school at the high 209 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: school that I attended. Wow, so I kind of had 210 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 1: this weird like I was kind of living the dream 211 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 1: the worst way possible. And so I will sometimes have 212 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 1: dreams that are I'm sometimes a little vague as to 213 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 1: whether I am dreaming about teaching high school and my 214 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 1: old high school where I'm dreaming about attending the high school, 215 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 1: or having to go back and take a class that 216 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 1: I didn't finish, that sort of thing. What age where 217 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: you when you were teaching at that high school. I 218 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 1: mean I was fresh out of college, so I was, oh, yeah, 219 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:09,839 Speaker 1: so that might come back later when we talk about 220 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 1: different periods of life in the formation of memories, that 221 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 1: that might be relevant to your case here. Um, so 222 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:19,439 Speaker 1: another thing that is extremely common. In fact, just before 223 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: we started off, we were talking to our producer today Seth, 224 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 1: and he was saying that he's had this dream. I've 225 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: had this dream. I've talked to tons of people who 226 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: have had this dream, who have been out of school 227 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 1: for decades, and it's this. It's the end of the semester. 228 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: There's a class that I forgot I was enrolled in 229 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 1: and I haven't been going to and now I suddenly remember, 230 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:42,199 Speaker 1: Oh no, I'm in this class and I've got to 231 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 1: go take the final exam. Yeah. I I have done 232 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 1: that one as well, where I missed the deadline to 233 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 1: drop the class and or just forgot that I had 234 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 1: it entirely. And and it'll like summon like a mental 235 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:58,079 Speaker 1: calendar of when your classes are, and it's generally usually 236 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: something like, oh, it was a Wednesday more in class, 237 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: and it was it was sandwich between two other classes, 238 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 1: and somehow I just missed it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I 239 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:09,199 Speaker 1: get the exact same calendar effect. Actually, I think about like, oh, 240 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: I wasn't going because I was doing this other thing 241 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: at this time of the week, and I just forgot 242 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 1: repeatedly that I had this class. Now I suddenly remember, 243 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: and uh, and my chicken is cooked. I mean, they're like, 244 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 1: there's no way I'm going to pass this exam. Other 245 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 1: common things that I found reported are difficulty with navigating 246 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: the school environment, so being in high school or being 247 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:35,320 Speaker 1: in college and being unable to find the classroom, so 248 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: you're like running around, you're late for the class and 249 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: you're trying to get there, but you can't find the 250 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: door or you can't get in. I've never had that one. Yeah, 251 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 1: it's it's weird. How you know that our experiences will 252 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 1: will vary like that one I've never had. I I've 253 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: never had a problem getting to the dream classroom and 254 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:56,679 Speaker 1: a dream. Another big one I think is school based embarrassment, 255 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:59,959 Speaker 1: dreaming about like being embarrassed in front of a class 256 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 1: room or in front of classmates, or like having to 257 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 1: give a presentation in front of a class and not 258 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:09,680 Speaker 1: being prepared or being embarrassed some way, see I. I 259 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 1: The weird thing is I don't have any of those 260 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: related to actual class experiences. But but since I was 261 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 1: in um theater, I do have dreams related to productions 262 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 1: that I haven't learned my lines. Yes, I have the 263 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 1: same dreams I did theater in high school. And yeah, 264 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: I I very frequently dreamed that I suddenly remember, oh, Yeah, 265 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 1: I'm in a play that's opening tonight, and I haven't 266 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 1: looked at my lines yet. How about this one? This 267 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 1: is a weirder one, but I feel like I hear 268 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: this one pretty often. Uh, sort of blending of school 269 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 1: with the workplace or with the current friend group, and 270 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 1: blending of like old teachers with bosses. You get this, No, No, 271 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 1: I don't really get that one. I would get get 272 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: the blending of workplaces to a certain extent, because I'll 273 00:14:56,080 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: have dreams where I didn't actually fully quit my previous job. 274 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 1: I'm kind of like kept one foot in it somehow, 275 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: but I have to keep going back to do like 276 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 1: the bare minimum to still be a part of the 277 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 1: previous employers. And and I always just kind of analyze 278 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 1: that as being like it's about fear of change. It's 279 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 1: about fear of like entering any kind of new phase 280 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: in life. This dream rehearsal in which I never actually 281 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 1: leave any step behind, you know, where I'm managing to keep, 282 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 1: you know, one foot on every stone that traverses the 283 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: pond or the stream. I can absolutely see that. Yet, 284 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: general dreams about not just school, but school being one 285 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 1: example of like being drawn back into a previous stage 286 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: of life, like you can't, you can't move on to 287 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 1: the next thing. Yeah, yeah, all right, well maybe we 288 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: should take a break and then when we come back 289 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 1: we can analyze the school dream a little more. Alright, 290 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 1: we're back. So you know, in our cold open you 291 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: added the bit about tooth falling out and seth our producer. 292 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 1: He he mentioned that he has had dreams in which 293 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: is his teeth fall out and the school anxiety dream. 294 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 1: I've never had a dream where or teeth fall out, 295 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: which really which is is weird because I mean, like 296 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 1: dental anxiety has It's kind of part of my upbringing 297 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 1: because you know, my father was a dentist. You know, 298 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 1: I remember like seeing slides of awful teeth when I 299 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: was a kid, and and even today like I'll you know, 300 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: I'll you know, I you know, I'm I'm I'm getting older. 301 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: I think about my my dental health and I and 302 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: I regularly read articles that are discussing correlation between dental 303 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 1: hygiene situations and say things like Alzheimer's. So, I mean, 304 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: there's plenty of of of fuel there for the fire, 305 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: and yet that never happens in my dreams. That's interesting. Now, 306 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: of course, the teeth falling out dream goes way back, 307 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: and you've got all kinds of like freudy intakes on 308 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 1: that and stuff where it's you know, it's metaphorical for 309 00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: some kind of like wish or anxiety that you have. 310 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 1: Weather dreams are actually metaphorical in those ways, I think 311 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:07,679 Speaker 1: is an unsettled question. But but but it's certainly they 312 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: could be. And if they are, yeah, it could be 313 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:13,679 Speaker 1: that maybe you don't really suffer from the underlying anxiety 314 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: that drives whatever causes people to think about their teeth 315 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 1: falling out in dreams. Maybe the teeth falling out in 316 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 1: dreams is not normally about teeth. That that's if the 317 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: like metaphor theory of dreams is true, which we don't 318 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:26,360 Speaker 1: know if it is. And my hand has fallen off 319 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 1: in a dream before, but never the teeth. Well, so 320 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: back to the school dream. We know, at least anecdotally 321 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:36,440 Speaker 1: just from talking to people, that it seems pretty common 322 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 1: for adults who have been out of school for a 323 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: long time to keep having these recurring dreams about school. 324 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: Uh even you know, I've I've talked to people who 325 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:49,640 Speaker 1: are in their sixties who still have these dreams, which 326 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 1: is not I'm not looking forward to that for the 327 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,439 Speaker 1: rest of my life. But oh well, uh, and so 328 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 1: the question is like, is it really all that common? Again? 329 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 1: We are going to be dealing here with the problems 330 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 1: that are common to all kinds of psychological studies, which 331 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 1: is often there is not enough data about say the 332 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:09,920 Speaker 1: entire world, and you know, we get like the weird focus, right, yes, 333 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 1: weird science, but not in the fun way of weird 334 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: standing for Western educated and from industrialized, rich and democratic countries, 335 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,640 Speaker 1: just meaning that like in lots of studies, especially lots 336 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: of psychological studies, there is a disproportionate representation of people 337 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:28,159 Speaker 1: in that sort of category a lot of times because 338 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 1: these studies are done at like western research universities, and 339 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: that brings up the potential criticism. Well, of course, all 340 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 1: these people were having dreams about exams and exam anxiety. 341 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:41,159 Speaker 1: They are college students, right, There's not any mystery at 342 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:45,360 Speaker 1: all why college students would be dreaming about uh, school 343 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:47,880 Speaker 1: and college and exams. And of course studies find that, yes, 344 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:50,360 Speaker 1: college students do dream about that a lot. Just one example, 345 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 1: a two thousand three study in the journal Dreaming found 346 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: among Canadian university students. The dreams about the category known 347 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 1: as school teachers and studying were the fourth most common 348 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,159 Speaker 1: typical theme of dreams out of a list of like 349 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: fifty something common themes of dreams. But they're Canadian college students. 350 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:12,120 Speaker 1: That just doesn't seem very surprising at all. But studies 351 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 1: including like older populations have also found that school dreams 352 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:19,879 Speaker 1: remain very common. Just to cite one example from the 353 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: journal Dreaming in by Mathis Shreddle and gorerits called frequency 354 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:29,719 Speaker 1: of typical dream themes in most Recent dreams and online study. 355 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 1: They had a big sample collected online. It was two thousand, 356 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 1: eight hundred and fifty three participants. They did a survey 357 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,119 Speaker 1: about the themes of recent dreams people had, and this 358 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:43,400 Speaker 1: was based on a common dream theme inventory that has 359 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 1: like a list of commonly cited themes and you can 360 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,880 Speaker 1: check off which ones apply to you in recent dreams. Uh. 361 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 1: And they said that their findings were mostly consistent with 362 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: other studies showing prevalence of dream themes in different populations. 363 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 1: They ended up ranking dream themes by prevalence and dream 364 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: about school teachers and studying was actually the fifth most 365 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 1: common category of dreams by theme overall, I found that 366 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 1: the entire list of ten was kind of interesting. Yeah, well, 367 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:12,640 Speaker 1: I mean six is arriving too late, which could be 368 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 1: very very well be couched in the same area. Right, 369 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: And if you have a dream that you know more 370 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 1: than one applies to, you can check both. Right, So 371 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 1: let's do the whole list. Number ten swimming, number nine 372 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: being physically attacked, number eight, a person now alive being dead. 373 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:33,200 Speaker 1: Number seven a person now dead being alive, Number six 374 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 1: arriving too late, number five school teachers and studying number four, 375 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:42,680 Speaker 1: sexual experiences, number three being chased or pursued. Number two. Oh, 376 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: this one hits home trying something again and again. And 377 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 1: then number one flying or soaring through the air. See 378 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:51,919 Speaker 1: you know this list just it almost just makes me 379 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: enraged because people are people are having flying dreams is 380 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 1: their number one. Lots of people have flying dreams. I 381 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 1: do not have two flying dreams I can remember i've 382 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 1: and then in sexual experiences, I've rarely have a sexual dream, 383 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,120 Speaker 1: and now I should have. I should add the caveat 384 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 1: here that I remember. Big aspect of dreaming is you know, 385 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,920 Speaker 1: to what extent are we able to then recall what 386 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: we have dreamt of? When we wake up. I hate that. 387 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 1: The thing I definitely identify with most on here is 388 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: trying something again and again, like the dream about how 389 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: you just need to do something that should be really 390 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 1: simple and you should be able to do it, but 391 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 1: you try and you try and you try and you 392 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,959 Speaker 1: can't and it just doesn't work. Yeah, or like like 393 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: one of my most recent dreams I will share with 394 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: everyone is that that I was trying to move a 395 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 1: horse across um uh you know, like from one city 396 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: to another in a horse trailer, and Glenn Danzig was 397 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:51,639 Speaker 1: helping me, or he was supposed to help me, but 398 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,439 Speaker 1: he was absolutely no help at all, and it was 399 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 1: super frustrating and I kept having to to reattach the 400 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 1: horse hitch um which is or the hitch on the 401 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,920 Speaker 1: trailer with the trailer hitch, which was you know, which 402 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: was extra frustrating because like nothing in this dream had 403 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,920 Speaker 1: anything to do with what with with like actual real 404 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:15,359 Speaker 1: life struggles, like I'm not dealing with horses or horse trailers. Yeah, 405 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 1: well that's that's interesting stuff again because sort of like 406 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,879 Speaker 1: the school dream, Now it's not relevant to your life 407 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 1: at this moment, So what's going on? Is it a 408 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 1: metaphor for something that is relevant to your life in 409 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 1: this moment or is it just a sort of like 410 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: thought pattern or memory patterns being retrieved for no good reason. 411 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 1: And and I guess the perplexing thing and about anything 412 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: like this is that since we we have this fan 413 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:43,879 Speaker 1: of this fantastic ability to to make connections and things 414 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,919 Speaker 1: and even like random assemblages, you know, we can come 415 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 1: up with the story if we we analyze it enough, 416 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: we can say like, oh, yeah, well this is like 417 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 1: clearly the horse represents this, and the trailer represents this, 418 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:57,920 Speaker 1: and Glenn Danson represents that. Uh, you know, you can 419 00:22:57,920 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 1: come up with a version of it that makes sense. 420 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: Then does that have anything to do at all with 421 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 1: the the origin of the dream exactly? I mean that 422 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,159 Speaker 1: might be a personally useful story to come up with. 423 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,160 Speaker 1: I can see how it could be useful for for 424 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 1: people to interpret their dreams, even if the interpretation they 425 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: come up with actually has nothing to do with the 426 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,399 Speaker 1: cause of those thoughts arising in their head while they're sleeping. 427 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 1: But I do agree this is I joke about it 428 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,360 Speaker 1: being enraging, but it is a very interesting list. Yeah, 429 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 1: it's like swimming dreams swimming is on here. I never, 430 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:30,679 Speaker 1: I rarely have ever had a swimming dream, don't Hi. 431 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,440 Speaker 1: I swim every morning if I can. Uh. And yet 432 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: it doesn't really factor into my dreams at all. But 433 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:38,680 Speaker 1: okay to mention it again. Back to our our subject. 434 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:42,159 Speaker 1: This theme, known as school teachers and studying is number 435 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,639 Speaker 1: five the fifth most common theme of dreams uh in 436 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:49,919 Speaker 1: people responding to this massive online survey. But simply checking 437 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,920 Speaker 1: a box that says a recent dream included themes of 438 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 1: school teachers are studying doesn't really tell you all that much, right, 439 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,120 Speaker 1: Like it would be useful to have more granular detail 440 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: what exactly usually happens in the most common school based dreams? 441 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: What level of school does it apply to? Are the 442 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 1: dreams good or bad? I imagine they're probably mostly bad, 443 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 1: But I don't know. I've got you know, hunches. But 444 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 1: has anybody actually looked into this? And so the answer 445 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 1: is I was not able to find a rigorous study 446 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,160 Speaker 1: characterizing the school dreams like this, but I did find 447 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 1: at least one informal survey of of these dream experiences, 448 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 1: so to look at that. I was reading a blog 449 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: post about this on Psychology Today by the Boston College 450 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 1: research psychologist Peter Gray, and he had obviously noticed the 451 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,959 Speaker 1: same trend about adults having school dreams long after they 452 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 1: leave school or graduate. And by the way, the post 453 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 1: had a great deadpan title that does give away the findings, 454 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 1: but it's worth reading. It is the dream of school 455 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,640 Speaker 1: and none of the dreams are good. Yeah, I mean 456 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:52,919 Speaker 1: I can I certainly can't think of a good school 457 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 1: dream that I've ever had. They've all been at the 458 00:24:55,600 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: very least boring and tedious, if not, you know, anxious. Yeah. 459 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 1: So Gray used his online platform to conduct an informal 460 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 1: survey about the nature of school dreams and their emotional valence. Uh. Now, 461 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,880 Speaker 1: remember again, this is an informal survey, not scientific data, 462 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: so there's no attempt to randomize participation or blind respondents 463 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 1: about the purpose of the inquiry, So there could be 464 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:20,119 Speaker 1: selection effects biasing the responses here. But with that strong 465 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,920 Speaker 1: caveat in mind, what you know, if it's a starting place. 466 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,399 Speaker 1: What did he find in this survey? Well, first of all, 467 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 1: he looked into what was the level of school that 468 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 1: people dreamed about. By far, the most common was high school. 469 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 1: Seventy three percent of dreams involved high school. Uh. And 470 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 1: these responses are going to add up to more than 471 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: because people can report dreaming about more than one level 472 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:42,399 Speaker 1: of school. But like high school seventy college thirty percent, 473 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 1: elementary school twelve percent, middle school seven percent. Where the 474 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 1: dreams good or bad? As alluded to in the title, 475 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 1: the dreams were overwhelmingly bad on a one to five scale, 476 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: with one being very pleasant and five being very unpleasant. 477 00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 1: Nobody rated any recurring school dream better than three. Almost 478 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 1: all dreams were rated to four or five. Common emotions 479 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 1: identified by the dreamers in these dreams include anxiety, panic, shame, embarrassment, 480 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 1: and helplessness. It sounds about right. He found that the 481 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: dreams continued for decades after people graduated from school, and 482 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,920 Speaker 1: they were extremely common in people in their thirties and forties, 483 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 1: but much older people still reported them. Uh, and back 484 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,119 Speaker 1: to the question of like, what are these dreams like? 485 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,239 Speaker 1: What actually happens in them? Plenty of things happened, but 486 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,399 Speaker 1: he found the two most common among the people who 487 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 1: replied to his survey were missing classes all term and 488 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,120 Speaker 1: therefore being likely to fail. That seems like it goes 489 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 1: right along with this, you know, this archetype we talked 490 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 1: about at the beginning and then second being unable to 491 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:44,360 Speaker 1: find the classroom. This is the one you were less 492 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,200 Speaker 1: familiar with, right, Robert, Yeah, I don't think I've had 493 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:49,879 Speaker 1: this one, but it totally makes sense. I mean, I 494 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 1: mean I remember from real life at times having that issue, 495 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: like trying to find a classroom or trying to find 496 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,639 Speaker 1: where the classroom is moved temporarily. I mean, it seems 497 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,160 Speaker 1: like the kind of thing I would have dreamt about, 498 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 1: but I did not. Well. Another interesting thing that I've 499 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:08,119 Speaker 1: found when people collect these anecdotes of people's school anxiety 500 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: dreams is that they're not only common among people who 501 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: struggled in school or actually experienced feelings of helplessness and classes. 502 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: It seems they're very common at least also maybe even 503 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,399 Speaker 1: more so among people who were successful as students and 504 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,159 Speaker 1: who did well in their classes. Yeah. I mean, you 505 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:27,400 Speaker 1: just because you're good at something doesn't mean you're you're 506 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 1: stress free about it, right, Right, But I guess now 507 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 1: we've got to turn to the question of why why 508 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 1: these school dreams? For decades after people leave school, you 509 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 1: might be in your fifties, you might be in your sixties, 510 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 1: and you're still having the dream where you forgot you 511 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 1: were enrolled in Russian calculus and you've got to show 512 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,200 Speaker 1: up and take the exam. Why does that happen? Why 513 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: does that take hold of our brains? Why are we 514 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 1: not instead replacing those dreams with dreams about things that 515 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 1: are affecting us in the present. I think it's he 516 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 1: has a great question, and my my sort of gut 517 00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,679 Speaker 1: answers it would be that we live very boring lives, 518 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,159 Speaker 1: you know, Like, like I I legitimately want I did 519 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,160 Speaker 1: a little looking around for this, and I couldn't find 520 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 1: a good source. But my my immediate question is, like, 521 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: how would this kind of data match up with people 522 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,920 Speaker 1: who instead of going to college, uh, like we're were 523 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,200 Speaker 1: drafted into the military. Like what would this data look like, 524 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 1: say from you know, more from like a World War 525 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: two era, um, you know, a group of subjects. I 526 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 1: was really curious about that too. And like, as we said, 527 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 1: you know, the data we have seemed to be affected 528 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 1: by like the selection problems that exist in a lot 529 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 1: of current psychological literature. But yeah, if there is data 530 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 1: like that out there somewhere and somebody knows about it, 531 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 1: please send it our way. I would love to see that, 532 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: to see if that's different. Likewise, this would be a 533 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 1: great area to hear from just our listeners, like what 534 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: has you what's your experience if you especially if you 535 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: didn't if if you were, say drafted into the military 536 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 1: or join the military, like right after high school, Like 537 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 1: what do you have more off do you have more 538 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 1: like boot camp dreams or military dreams or even combat dreams, 539 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 1: or do you have more high school dreams? Like I wonder, 540 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 1: wonder like what has the most potency? I mean, I 541 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 1: wonder also our school dreams common among people, say who 542 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,480 Speaker 1: didn't go to high school. Maybe if you only have 543 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 1: an elementary school education and you know, you went on 544 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: straight to a career after that, do you still have 545 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: anxiety dreams about elementary school? Right? Or do you have 546 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 1: dreams about like the trials that take place at that 547 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 1: the high school age stage of your life, like entering 548 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 1: the workforce or you know, whatever happened to you know, 549 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 1: fill those years. Yeah, I wish we had more information 550 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 1: about that, But that's a very interesting question. All right. 551 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 1: On that note, we're going to take a quick break, 552 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 1: but we'll be right back. All right, We're back so 553 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 1: in trying to answer this question of like why school 554 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 1: anxiety dreams seem to be so common among people who 555 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 1: went to high school or college but have been long 556 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 1: out of it, you know, like the high school is 557 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 1: not something that's still a pressing concern for them, and 558 00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 1: yet they have nightmares about it, or at least anxiety 559 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 1: dreams of out at frequently. Yeah, like you can forget 560 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 1: everybody's name that you went to high school with based 561 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 1: with these dreams. I was reading an article by the 562 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 1: science writer Stephanie Poppas about this and and she led 563 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 1: me to some interesting thoughts that I don't think I 564 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 1: would have connected to automatically, but this was this was cool. 565 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: So so she's looking at the same question. And one 566 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 1: idea she brings up that I thought was a very 567 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 1: interesting possibility is an association with what's known as the 568 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 1: reminiscence bump. Robert, were you familiar with this? Okay? I 569 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 1: wasn't either, but um, but it makes sense based on 570 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 1: some other things I've read. So the reminiscence bump is 571 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 1: the tendency for people to have better recollection of stuff 572 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: that happened when they were in their late teenage years 573 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: in their early twenties, and better recollection of that stuff 574 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 1: than any other point in their lives. So, for example, 575 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 1: older adults, you take somebody maybe in their fifties or 576 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 1: sixties or seventies, they will seem to have greater access 577 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 1: to more vivid memories with more accuracy at the referring 578 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 1: to things that happened at the time there were maybe 579 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 1: sixteen to twenty five, and less access to memories with 580 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 1: less accuracy dealing with things both before and after this. 581 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 1: And many studies have demonstrated the reminiscence bump. I think 582 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 1: this is a well established phenomenon. Well, I could see 583 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: that being a you know, a direct factor, and thats 584 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 1: then for sure, Yeah, it's possible. So we'll continue to 585 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 1: think about this. But to look a little bit more 586 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 1: closely at the reminiscence bump, if you want to imagine 587 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 1: basically the quality or salience of memories throughout the life 588 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: in general, Uh, the quality and quantity of autobiographical memories 589 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: is is not equal across time, and there's sort of 590 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 1: an s curve in lifetime memory retrieval. For example, adults 591 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 1: tend to remember very little from before the age of 592 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 1: five or so. This is sometimes referred to as childhood amnesia. 593 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 1: Memories increase from here, and you get this curve going 594 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 1: up where the older you get, the more memories you 595 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 1: have from that period, and it peaks sometime around the 596 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 1: early twenties, like late teens, early twenties. That's that's the 597 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 1: olden time for having the most memories that are most 598 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 1: easily retrieved. And that it's also a reason perhaps that 599 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: you like so much with the nostalgia that is marketed 600 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,480 Speaker 1: at you is going to be marketed at things from 601 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 1: that period of your life. Oh yeah, actually, uh now 602 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 1: I don't remember who made this point, but somebody I 603 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: was reading made this point. I'm sorry, I can't remember 604 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 1: the name. Pointed out the connection between this and the 605 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 1: cycle of remakes and films that there seems to be 606 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 1: about a twenty year lag, and that would tie in 607 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 1: with like the stuff you remember coming out when you 608 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 1: were twenty years old, you being ripe to like go 609 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: engage in nostalgia for that or even participate in making 610 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 1: the remake when you're forty interesting. Okay, But anyway, after 611 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 1: this increase in in the retrieval of memories from around 612 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 1: the early twenties, they did, your ability to retrieve memories 613 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 1: declines again from later periods, so older adults remember less 614 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 1: from their thirties and forties. Though, of course, no matter 615 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 1: what age we are, we tend to recall recent events better, 616 00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 1: So whatever wherever you are in the age range, the memory, 617 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 1: of course from the last few years will usually be 618 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: pretty good. So no matter what your age is, if 619 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 1: you're after you know, thirties or forties, you're going to 620 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 1: have kind of an s curve with it peaking up 621 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 1: again for more recent things. So we can definitely see 622 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 1: how this could be related. It could be relevant to 623 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 1: the lifelong power of school related terror and it seems 624 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 1: to line up especially with the observation that the majority 625 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 1: of school related dreams are not about like elementary school, 626 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 1: but they tend to be about high school and college. 627 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 1: So that could be because school anxieties are common for 628 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: people who attend high school and college in their late 629 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 1: teens and early twenties, and these themes are especially salient 630 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 1: and easy to access in memory for dream content. But 631 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 1: I guess this forces us to ask the question, if 632 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 1: the reminiscence bump plays a role in the prevalence of 633 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 1: school related dreams, why do we have a reminiscence bump 634 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 1: in the first place like why would we remember this 635 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 1: part of our lives better than other parts of our lives. 636 00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:58,719 Speaker 1: And there have been a lot of hypotheses to explain 637 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 1: this pattern. I think it's something that it's you know, 638 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:02,959 Speaker 1: it's not fully answered yet, but there's a lot of 639 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 1: research and thought about this. An early idea was that 640 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 1: maybe this is just the time of life when like 641 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,760 Speaker 1: the brain is physically most adept, it's you know, your brain, 642 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 1: is it optimized, high potential, it's making memories best than thosemies. 643 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,319 Speaker 1: Those memories are easiest to retrieve later. Well. One one 644 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,319 Speaker 1: possibility that I think ties directly in with this that 645 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:23,920 Speaker 1: you know, I'll come back to you later on, is 646 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,760 Speaker 1: that this is a time period this is the teenage brain. 647 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:29,840 Speaker 1: And uh we've talked about the teenage brain on the 648 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 1: show in the past about how it is it is 649 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,360 Speaker 1: wired a little differently like the different there are different 650 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 1: priorities for the teenage brain, for instance, with making social connections. Uh. 651 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 1: And you know, from an evolutionary standpoint, like that is 652 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: there because you would need to make connections with new people, 653 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,239 Speaker 1: you would need to branch out and uh and and 654 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: become a part of other groups and it would be 655 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,920 Speaker 1: necessary for your survival. So like the teenage brain is 656 00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,920 Speaker 1: wired for this passage into a new phase of life. 657 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 1: Uh so, yeah, that could be part of it for sure. Well, 658 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: I want to come back to that in a second, 659 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,400 Speaker 1: because who's the who's the personality that you need most 660 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,719 Speaker 1: importantly to make a connection to for social relevance. It's yourself, right, 661 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,960 Speaker 1: that's like identity formation period. So so we'll come back 662 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:18,799 Speaker 1: to that in a minute. Uh there's another explanation that 663 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 1: seems to have gained some credence after the initial thing 664 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:24,720 Speaker 1: about maybe the brain just being good at making memories. Then, um, 665 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 1: it has to do with the nature of life in 666 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 1: late teens in early twenties. Maybe we remember this period 667 00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 1: best because for many of us, this is the period 668 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:36,280 Speaker 1: when life is filled with the most variety and novelty. 669 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 1: Remember when we talked about the sort of the psychological 670 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,759 Speaker 1: dilation of time. Experiences that feel like they're taking the 671 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 1: longest actually take up the shortest time in our memory, 672 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 1: and they sort of collapse because these are the mundane, boring, 673 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:55,480 Speaker 1: grinding experiences. An our waiting in line for something feels 674 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 1: like it takes forever, but it takes up almost no 675 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:02,120 Speaker 1: space in your later memory. Meanwhile, a novel experience that 676 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 1: you've never done before. It's very strange and challenging to 677 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 1: you goes by in an instant in the moment, but 678 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 1: then in your memory it takes up this expansive character. 679 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,359 Speaker 1: And thus the faster your time seems to go by 680 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 1: in the present, the more time you seem to have 681 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 1: had to experience life in your memory. Yeah. To the 682 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 1: prime examples of this are frequently, of course, a vacation, 683 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:25,799 Speaker 1: and ultimately that's one of the great things about of 684 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 1: a vacation, because you've you've changed the way you're interacting 685 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 1: with novelty in your life. Uh. The darker example, though, 686 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 1: it would of course be a traumatic occurrence, where it 687 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,440 Speaker 1: is it is also impacting your life in a novel way. 688 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,319 Speaker 1: But in both cases, those can be things that where 689 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:45,239 Speaker 1: it just seems like time is super sped up in 690 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:47,440 Speaker 1: the moment, like the things are just rushing past you 691 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:49,840 Speaker 1: and then it's over. But then when you think back 692 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 1: that time is way stretched out. It represents more life 693 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:56,080 Speaker 1: than the you know, the week before that, where there 694 00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,720 Speaker 1: was there was just a mundane work week. Yeah. Another 695 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:02,319 Speaker 1: example of this is freaking one's wedding if you've had 696 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:04,799 Speaker 1: a wedding ceremony like it's it's it's really become kind 697 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:06,839 Speaker 1: of a trope, right that it will it will just 698 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,560 Speaker 1: fly by. You'll barely have a chance to experience it 699 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 1: in the moment, but of course it will be this 700 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:14,920 Speaker 1: thing that you think back to, uh, you know, for 701 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,279 Speaker 1: the rest of your life. Right, And this does seem 702 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:19,719 Speaker 1: to go along with some psychology and neuroscience. It's well 703 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:24,240 Speaker 1: known that the brain essentially encodes stronger memories of novel 704 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 1: experiences than of routine ones. You're gonna have a weaker 705 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:30,799 Speaker 1: memory of things that you've done a million times and 706 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,360 Speaker 1: just happened to do again the other day, then of 707 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,799 Speaker 1: something that was really unusual and new for you. Just 708 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,400 Speaker 1: for example, I was reading an article about the reminiscence 709 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,319 Speaker 1: bum by Katie Waldman and Slade, and she pointed out 710 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,480 Speaker 1: that there was a night study that found that nine 711 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:50,920 Speaker 1: percent of vivid life memories concern unique or first time events. 712 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,319 Speaker 1: That's a lot, yeah, I mean that would make sense. 713 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 1: I mean, just if you look at memories just to 714 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 1: sheer like cataloging of events or occurrences that may prove 715 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,760 Speaker 1: useful later, like the ones that are gonna be highlighted 716 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,440 Speaker 1: or this would never happened before. Well, we better we 717 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:06,359 Speaker 1: better mark this one. We better make sure this one's 718 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:09,040 Speaker 1: nice and vivid, because this will this could be useful 719 00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,719 Speaker 1: if this thing were to happen again exactly. But this 720 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:14,960 Speaker 1: theory has some challenges to explain the reminiscence bump. For example, 721 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 1: a big problem a lot of the memories that people 722 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:22,200 Speaker 1: report experiencing through their reminiscence bumps. So you ask somebody 723 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:24,359 Speaker 1: to say, Okay, you know, what are the things you 724 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:25,920 Speaker 1: you know remember in your life and make a list 725 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,959 Speaker 1: of autobiographical details. A lot of them are gonna be 726 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:31,960 Speaker 1: in their say, early twenties or late teens or something. 727 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,440 Speaker 1: But a lot of these experiences are not, in fact 728 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:40,680 Speaker 1: novel experiences. They'll remember something mundane from that time period. Well, 729 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 1: like when I think back to high school, I don't 730 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:49,000 Speaker 1: think I have any definitive memories of specific tests that 731 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,719 Speaker 1: I was stressed out about. You know. It's it's like 732 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,120 Speaker 1: these these dreams seem to be occurring from just a 733 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 1: generalization of of of anxiety that I was feeling at 734 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,520 Speaker 1: the time. Yeah, and so Waldman's article points actually to 735 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:04,839 Speaker 1: something that I found really interesting, and this comes back 736 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,120 Speaker 1: to the point you were making earlier that we're both 737 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,480 Speaker 1: talking about earlier. Another theory that's become popular and gained 738 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,840 Speaker 1: some traction in explaining the reminiscence bump is that the 739 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,600 Speaker 1: reminiscence bump occurs in the late teens, in early twenties 740 00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:19,879 Speaker 1: or its peaks then, because this is a time full 741 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:23,080 Speaker 1: of memories that people come to see as self defining. 742 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:28,120 Speaker 1: These are autobiographical narrative experiences that come to mind when 743 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:31,040 Speaker 1: we're asked to think about our identity, who we are. 744 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:35,400 Speaker 1: And so experiences and and studies have shown this experiences 745 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 1: that we see as self defining occupy a privileged place 746 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,120 Speaker 1: in our memory, even if they occur at other stages 747 00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,440 Speaker 1: of life. But apparently it's just very common for self 748 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:49,919 Speaker 1: defining experiences to be clustered in your late teenage years 749 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,399 Speaker 1: and in your twenties. Does that make sense? Yeah? Absolutely, yeah, 750 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:57,160 Speaker 1: I mean this is this is this this time of 751 00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:00,000 Speaker 1: of expansion in our life, this time of stepping from 752 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,759 Speaker 1: one one stone across the stream to another. Yeah. And 753 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:07,960 Speaker 1: so normally when we think about self defining memories, we 754 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:10,680 Speaker 1: want to drift towards the positive, right, And so if 755 00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:12,719 Speaker 1: you are asked to make a list of like I 756 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:16,839 Speaker 1: am statements about yourself, So, you know, make list ten 757 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,920 Speaker 1: statements about you saying like I am this, I am that, 758 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,560 Speaker 1: And then after that, I say, take every one of 759 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:25,560 Speaker 1: those I am statements and make a list of specific 760 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:30,280 Speaker 1: autobiographical memories you have that that that illustrate this fact 761 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,880 Speaker 1: about you that you are this thing. People will tend 762 00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:36,480 Speaker 1: to make lists of a lot of things from their 763 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:40,400 Speaker 1: like teenage in early twenties period. But studies find that 764 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:44,960 Speaker 1: that people can have un if people have self defining 765 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:48,440 Speaker 1: experience at other periods in their life, they will remember 766 00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:52,680 Speaker 1: these other periods in their life very well also. Uh So, 767 00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:55,799 Speaker 1: so it could just be that there's this unfortunate like 768 00:40:55,880 --> 00:41:02,080 Speaker 1: timeline coincidence, coincide, coincidence coincidence that the timeline of when 769 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,120 Speaker 1: you're in high school and when you're in college happens 770 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:07,919 Speaker 1: to line up pretty well with the timeline of when 771 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:11,000 Speaker 1: you're figuring out who you are and making memories that 772 00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:13,160 Speaker 1: will last the rest of your life to help you 773 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,879 Speaker 1: make sense of your life and your in your narrative arc. Absolutely, yeah, 774 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,080 Speaker 1: I think those two line up, you know, rather nicely. Now. 775 00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:22,520 Speaker 1: But then again, uh in that article I was talking 776 00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:26,280 Speaker 1: about by Stephanie Poppas. She also interviews Michael Shreddle, who's 777 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:28,720 Speaker 1: in charge of the sleep laboratory at the Central Institute 778 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,400 Speaker 1: of Mental Health in Mannheim, Germany. Yeah, he's the same 779 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,919 Speaker 1: author of that and the nightmare survey that referred to earlier. Yeah, 780 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:38,160 Speaker 1: and one of the studies I referred to earlier survey. 781 00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:42,800 Speaker 1: And Shreddle does not agree with the reminiscence bump theory. 782 00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:46,400 Speaker 1: He he thinks that dreams stem from the brain trying 783 00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:49,840 Speaker 1: to deal with problems it's facing in the present, perhaps 784 00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 1: by way of analogy. And and he tells her quote 785 00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:56,840 Speaker 1: the examination, dreams are triggered by current life situations that 786 00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:01,759 Speaker 1: have similar emotional qualities. And I mean, obviously, you know 787 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,880 Speaker 1: he's the expert on this. I'm not, but I have 788 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,040 Speaker 1: some issues with that because if this is true, I 789 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:10,799 Speaker 1: feel like, in a way, it still doesn't answer the question. Like, 790 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:14,400 Speaker 1: let's say that all school anxiety dreams are actually functioning 791 00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:17,840 Speaker 1: on a kind of unconscious system of metaphors. It's the 792 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:22,160 Speaker 1: brain working over current problems and obstacles by presenting a 793 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:26,319 Speaker 1: strange metaphorical scenario that has similar emotional qualities. We don't 794 00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:28,600 Speaker 1: know that's the case, but let's assume that's the case. Yeah, Like, 795 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,520 Speaker 1: for instance, you're not looking for a classroom in which 796 00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:33,319 Speaker 1: you have to take an exam, but perhaps you're looking 797 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,680 Speaker 1: for something. Perhaps you're not concerned about failing a test. 798 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:40,759 Speaker 1: Perhaps perhaps like you're concerned about being judged in one 799 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:44,480 Speaker 1: fashion or another. Exactly right. Yes, So if that's the case, 800 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,839 Speaker 1: the question remains, why is school so prevalent as the 801 00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:52,600 Speaker 1: metaphor that the brain chooses even later in life. If 802 00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:55,719 Speaker 1: for some reason it must default to a metaphor, why 803 00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,360 Speaker 1: not one from more recent experience. Why aren't all the 804 00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,640 Speaker 1: fifty year old's anxiety during tames about school or replaced 805 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:05,960 Speaker 1: with dreams about other anxiety inducing situations from the past 806 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:08,680 Speaker 1: month or the past year of their life? Why go 807 00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:11,239 Speaker 1: back to this time? So I feel like that that 808 00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:14,240 Speaker 1: could be true, but it wouldn't necessarily answer the question 809 00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:17,560 Speaker 1: of why school in the dreams? Now? Is? I believe 810 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:22,640 Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier that dream anxiety dreams about exams in school. 811 00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:25,880 Speaker 1: You know, we've mostly been dealing about them after the fact, 812 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:30,239 Speaker 1: you know, five, ten, twenty forty years later. But the 813 00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:33,080 Speaker 1: reality is that we also see these dreams occurring, you know, 814 00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:37,960 Speaker 1: in real time before the tests occur, being experienced by 815 00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:40,640 Speaker 1: actual students. Yeah, and that that's the time when it 816 00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:43,319 Speaker 1: totally makes sense. It's more just the mystery of why 817 00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:45,840 Speaker 1: they occur later in life. But maybe by understanding what 818 00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:48,640 Speaker 1: role they serve in the moment, you could better understand 819 00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:51,560 Speaker 1: why they linger in the brain so much. Right. So, yeah, 820 00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:54,000 Speaker 1: this brings brings us to this this broader question, right, 821 00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:57,400 Speaker 1: could could anxiety dreams actually be adaptive? Are they helping 822 00:43:57,480 --> 00:43:59,880 Speaker 1: us in one way or another? Are the contents of 823 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,520 Speaker 1: them helping us in some way? Right? And and this 824 00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:04,840 Speaker 1: again we come back to sort of the division about 825 00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:07,719 Speaker 1: dreams and how they work. Does the content matter at all? 826 00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:10,520 Speaker 1: Or or or the contents of the dreams sort of 827 00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:14,000 Speaker 1: like the scap that has been extruded by by the 828 00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:18,760 Speaker 1: like the psychic digestive system of the sleeping mind. Uh. Anyway, 829 00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:20,680 Speaker 1: and this we end up, you know, coming back to 830 00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:23,400 Speaker 1: those big questions. I'm reminded of an interview that we 831 00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:28,960 Speaker 1: conducted with the Dr marn Surf years ago on our episode. 832 00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:30,880 Speaker 1: I believe it was the one about the Nine dream 833 00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:33,879 Speaker 1: Worlds of Frederick penn Eden. And you know, we talked 834 00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:37,160 Speaker 1: about there being five different theories out there, predominant theories 835 00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:40,320 Speaker 1: about dreams that range from importance about dream content that 836 00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:43,759 Speaker 1: range from importance to non importance, you know, ranging from 837 00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:46,080 Speaker 1: it like it's like a defragmentation of the hard drive, 838 00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,239 Speaker 1: you know, a race and keep memories, assorting dreams as 839 00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:53,840 Speaker 1: emergent narrative another one. Um. And other extreme examples include, 840 00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:55,560 Speaker 1: you know, the idea that our our brain is looking 841 00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:58,440 Speaker 1: at things that we suppressed during the day, or that 842 00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:01,400 Speaker 1: the brain is using the dream to simulate futures for 843 00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:03,480 Speaker 1: us so that we can act better in the waking 844 00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:07,880 Speaker 1: world and um and yeah, so we're looking around, and 845 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:10,879 Speaker 1: there are some interesting cases to be made regarding these 846 00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:14,959 Speaker 1: anxiety dreams as being perhaps even being simulations for something 847 00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:17,560 Speaker 1: that's coming, at least dealing with stress ahead of an event. 848 00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:21,600 Speaker 1: And uh So. One of the papers the look that 849 00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:25,120 Speaker 1: here was will students pass a competitive exam that they 850 00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:30,440 Speaker 1: failed in their dreams? This was published in in Consciousness 851 00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:35,280 Speaker 1: and Cognition was by Arnold at all So The authors 852 00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:39,040 Speaker 1: point out that most students in medical school dream about 853 00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:43,440 Speaker 1: an exam before the exam, and they primarily dream of failure, 854 00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:46,560 Speaker 1: being late, not being able to answer the questions on 855 00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:51,279 Speaker 1: the exam, etcetera. And yet, unlike you know, with typical anxiety, 856 00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:55,040 Speaker 1: dreaming of an exam seems to predict higher performance on 857 00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:59,200 Speaker 1: the exam. So their theory was that it's like your 858 00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:04,360 Speaker 1: dramatics nation of high concerns during the dreams, maybe training 859 00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:07,600 Speaker 1: the brain for the challenges to come, so kind of 860 00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:09,400 Speaker 1: like let's just hit him with a bunch of like 861 00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:10,799 Speaker 1: the brain is just hitting you with a bunch of 862 00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:14,440 Speaker 1: worst case scenarios so that you'll be like better emotionally 863 00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:18,720 Speaker 1: prepared for something more middle of the road. That's really interesting. 864 00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:22,600 Speaker 1: I mean, I do wonder if that's true, Like just mechanically, 865 00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:26,279 Speaker 1: how does it work, you know, literally, how does it 866 00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:29,680 Speaker 1: increase the brain's ability to actually deal with the test 867 00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:33,080 Speaker 1: to have the dream about it. Yeah, it also sounds 868 00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:35,759 Speaker 1: like like maybe, you know, we don't want to personify 869 00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:38,920 Speaker 1: the brain. The sleeping brain is being like a you know, 870 00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:42,480 Speaker 1: a team of little bitty scientists that are deciding how 871 00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:44,160 Speaker 1: they're gonna what they're gonna roll out, what kind of 872 00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:47,880 Speaker 1: programming you presented is with Because it also seems like, well, okay, 873 00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:49,680 Speaker 1: if we could go back to the idea that dreams 874 00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:52,560 Speaker 1: don't matter, and this is just simply, uh, the dream 875 00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:55,160 Speaker 1: content doesn't matter, and that this is just a you know, 876 00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:58,959 Speaker 1: a reverberation of our of our concerns during the day. 877 00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:01,200 Speaker 1: You know, if you're st stout, maybe you're I mean, 878 00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:03,200 Speaker 1: that's what we do with mental time travel. We run 879 00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:06,240 Speaker 1: these scenarios in real time and we think, oh my goodness, 880 00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:07,560 Speaker 1: what if I don't get there in time? What if 881 00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:09,520 Speaker 1: I failed? What if I don't get good enough good 882 00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:12,759 Speaker 1: night's sleep before the exam? Uh it makes sense that 883 00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:14,680 Speaker 1: if you're worrying about there in the day, you're gonna 884 00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:18,160 Speaker 1: worry about that at night. Uh. So it becomes, you know, 885 00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:22,480 Speaker 1: difficult to really characterize the purpose if there is one 886 00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:25,720 Speaker 1: of the dream content. I also looked at a paper 887 00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:30,280 Speaker 1: titled Inception the Exam Dream is Real by Alan J. Oxford, 888 00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:34,200 Speaker 1: the third published in a pin State Law Review. This 889 00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:35,840 Speaker 1: one is also fun because there were a lot of 890 00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:40,120 Speaker 1: Morpheus quotes what in the in the paper? But but 891 00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:42,200 Speaker 1: it was it was very well written and uh and 892 00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:44,840 Speaker 1: of course it springs, as the title suggests, from similar 893 00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:48,640 Speaker 1: situations with law students. And the paper is is lengthy 894 00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:51,120 Speaker 1: and wrestles with the viewpoint that while the you know, 895 00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:54,120 Speaker 1: the function of sleep and dreaming is vital for our survival, 896 00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:58,440 Speaker 1: you know, essentially restoring our energy, arguably to fragging the 897 00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:01,560 Speaker 1: hard drive. The content of our dreams, you know, may 898 00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:05,000 Speaker 1: very well be without purpose. Again, according to some of 899 00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:08,080 Speaker 1: the models, Uh, you're the junk in your dreams may 900 00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:10,640 Speaker 1: simply be there because it's the same junk you've been 901 00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:13,719 Speaker 1: wrestling with all day, all week, all month as you 902 00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:18,200 Speaker 1: prepare for your tests. So I can't help but return 903 00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:21,480 Speaker 1: to this basic scenario of human survival that we've been 904 00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:25,640 Speaker 1: discussing here. You know, these dreams again are often relating 905 00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:29,040 Speaker 1: to periods of great stress and vulnerability, and they are 906 00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:32,520 Speaker 1: in a paper tiger sense of things, not unlike states 907 00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:35,759 Speaker 1: of birth. You know, a process is in place, but 908 00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:38,080 Speaker 1: there is a potential for things to go very wrong. 909 00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:41,399 Speaker 1: There's a risk. And in many models of the afterlife, 910 00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:45,719 Speaker 1: the same scenario is also present in transferring to the 911 00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:50,000 Speaker 1: realms beyond death. Uh. Take Tibetan Buddhism, for instance, one 912 00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:53,960 Speaker 1: goes through a mental rehearsal, meditation, and practice so as 913 00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:57,600 Speaker 1: to ensure one's dying consciousness moves safely through all eight 914 00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:01,680 Speaker 1: stages of death to the death point. Confusing but you know, 915 00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:05,600 Speaker 1: in many ways enlightening state that may last for many days. Oh, 916 00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:08,840 Speaker 1: I think about the ancient Egyptian sort of rehearsals for 917 00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:12,600 Speaker 1: the progress through the afterlife. Yeah, I think very similar scenario. 918 00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:14,560 Speaker 1: You know. It's something where it's like the the journey 919 00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:18,120 Speaker 1: is stressful, the journey is like birth, and there's a 920 00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:19,880 Speaker 1: lot of stuff that can go wrong if you're not 921 00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:22,600 Speaker 1: prepared for it. And uh, yeah, we see this in 922 00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:25,680 Speaker 1: various other spiritual models as well. So yeah, I think 923 00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:28,239 Speaker 1: that you know, for for most of human history, the 924 00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:32,880 Speaker 1: teenage years, a little before, a little after, you know this, 925 00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:35,239 Speaker 1: this was a time in which we were making these 926 00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:38,480 Speaker 1: big jumps out into the world. You know, we're and 927 00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:40,319 Speaker 1: even in our own lives like so much of the 928 00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:43,360 Speaker 1: time teenage years and then in college years if you 929 00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:46,520 Speaker 1: go to college or entering the workplace, etcetera. Like these 930 00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:48,400 Speaker 1: are dream These are periods of time in which we 931 00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:53,640 Speaker 1: have increasing responsibilities for ourself and our own destiny, our 932 00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:55,759 Speaker 1: own fate. However you want to uh, you know, you 933 00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:58,480 Speaker 1: want to package it and uh, you know, so it 934 00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:01,560 Speaker 1: makes sense that we would come back to this period 935 00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:04,319 Speaker 1: time and time again in dream. You know, either the 936 00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:08,640 Speaker 1: reverberation of the anxiety or just the reverberation of the metaphor, 937 00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:12,319 Speaker 1: you know, and uh, it's it's uh you almost want 938 00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:14,920 Speaker 1: to think of it as this this thing in our timeline. 939 00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:16,960 Speaker 1: It is just so potent that it's you know, it's 940 00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:19,880 Speaker 1: like sending waves back into into the past and into 941 00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:22,359 Speaker 1: the future at the same time. Yeah, well, I feel 942 00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:24,920 Speaker 1: like the question is still unanswered. But I think the 943 00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:27,200 Speaker 1: thing that we've talked about today that appeals to me 944 00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:31,560 Speaker 1: the most as an explanation is probably the the it's 945 00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:33,960 Speaker 1: it's tying into what you're saying now, like the self 946 00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:37,120 Speaker 1: identity narrative of the reminiscence bump. I think is is 947 00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:39,920 Speaker 1: a It seems like a very good candidate to me. 948 00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:44,719 Speaker 1: That like, if if there is a general context for 949 00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:47,399 Speaker 1: what's happening in your life at a time when you're 950 00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:50,080 Speaker 1: making a lot of memories that are highly relevant to 951 00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:53,200 Speaker 1: what what you think about yourself and who you think 952 00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:56,640 Speaker 1: you are, then those memories in that context are going 953 00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:59,560 Speaker 1: to be highly salient and in memory and will be 954 00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:02,799 Speaker 1: retre eaved effortlessly throughout the rest of your life, even 955 00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:05,920 Speaker 1: maybe necessarily when you don't want them to be. And 956 00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:08,759 Speaker 1: then of course, as you're saying, like the test, just 957 00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:11,880 Speaker 1: the test is a perfect metaphor in a way, like 958 00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:14,480 Speaker 1: it just does fit with so much else that's going 959 00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:18,640 Speaker 1: to happen throughout our life as a metaphor. Uh because 960 00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:21,959 Speaker 1: because essentially, like every major struggle is in a way 961 00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:24,880 Speaker 1: a test, right, and you know, an important test in 962 00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:28,960 Speaker 1: high school or college. Uh, it's it's it's a perfect 963 00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:31,480 Speaker 1: example of a paper tiger, right because you're not going 964 00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:34,480 Speaker 1: to die if you fail an exam, but certainly failing 965 00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:38,560 Speaker 1: important exams and tests can have, you know, some some 966 00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:42,000 Speaker 1: pretty major effects on your life, or at least you 967 00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:44,840 Speaker 1: know they can contribute to major twists and turns in 968 00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:47,640 Speaker 1: your timeline, or at least adults will definitely tell you 969 00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:50,839 Speaker 1: that it contributes. That's because that's the narrative you're hit with, 970 00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:52,960 Speaker 1: like this is an important test, like this could this 971 00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:55,560 Speaker 1: could you know, impact whether you get into college or not, 972 00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:58,319 Speaker 1: or if you have to go work at the at 973 00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:01,080 Speaker 1: the you know, the the shoot tongue fact tree where 974 00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:03,920 Speaker 1: they just make the tongues for shoes. Uh you know, 975 00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:06,719 Speaker 1: I mean, so you know a lot of it we 976 00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:09,319 Speaker 1: can blame our parents for I agree, Oh, I didn't 977 00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:11,799 Speaker 1: mean to blame our parents. I just mean that, I mean, 978 00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:14,400 Speaker 1: I think it is worth this should maybe at least 979 00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:18,040 Speaker 1: tempt us to think differently about what school should be. Like. 980 00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:20,799 Speaker 1: I'm not saying, you know, I'm not saying I know 981 00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:24,560 Speaker 1: everything about education or you know about what's best for 982 00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:27,480 Speaker 1: for high school age kids and what's the best way 983 00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:30,960 Speaker 1: for them to learn. But if high school is causing 984 00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:35,040 Speaker 1: these high school in college are causing these horrible you 985 00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:37,799 Speaker 1: know memories that that plague people the rest of their 986 00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:40,239 Speaker 1: lives and they wake up in a cold sweat thinking 987 00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:43,640 Speaker 1: about tests, I don't know that that could at least 988 00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:47,000 Speaker 1: maybe be a sign that like there's something structurally about 989 00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:49,799 Speaker 1: the high school experience that could be different. Maybe. But 990 00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:52,920 Speaker 1: then I again, I also just wonder if you're going 991 00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:55,600 Speaker 1: to have something similar no matter what you're going through 992 00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:58,880 Speaker 1: at that age. Ye. Again, I wish we had some 993 00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:02,920 Speaker 1: great data looking at individuals who go directly into military 994 00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:06,960 Speaker 1: service or or you know, directly into the workforce, and 995 00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:10,400 Speaker 1: or in those cases you're just going to see different 996 00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:14,920 Speaker 1: dream content stemming from the same life period. But you know, 997 00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:17,360 Speaker 1: who knows, maybe in the future will have more robust 998 00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:19,719 Speaker 1: data to go from on this, All right, well there 999 00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:23,200 Speaker 1: you have it. Uh. School dreams something that I think 1000 00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:26,320 Speaker 1: everybody can relate to. Um, And if you can't relate 1001 00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:28,560 Speaker 1: to it, we definitely want to hear from you about that. 1002 00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:31,239 Speaker 1: So basically, no matter you know what your experience, you 1003 00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:34,440 Speaker 1: probably have something to share here. UM. I'm not one 1004 00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:36,440 Speaker 1: of those you know, some people you know will say, like, 1005 00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:38,760 Speaker 1: you know, you never want to hear about somebody else's dreams, 1006 00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:42,240 Speaker 1: like somebody's else's dreams are always boring. I strongly disagree. 1007 00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:44,840 Speaker 1: I always want to hear about other people's dreams because 1008 00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:47,360 Speaker 1: even if they are boring, it's telling like you're learning 1009 00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:50,799 Speaker 1: something about the the inner space that defines someone else. Uh. 1010 00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:53,600 Speaker 1: And then half the time, though it's really weird and 1011 00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:57,319 Speaker 1: uh and interesting in its own right. So right into us, 1012 00:53:57,680 --> 00:53:59,640 Speaker 1: we'll tell you how to do that. But in the meantime, 1013 00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:02,160 Speaker 1: if you want to listen to other episodes of Stuff 1014 00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:03,560 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind, you'll find the Stuff to Blow 1015 00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:05,960 Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. Where else can you find it? Oh, 1016 00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:09,520 Speaker 1: like everywhere wherever you get podcasts these days, which seems 1017 00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:15,280 Speaker 1: to be like literally everywhere, various programs, various services, objects 1018 00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:19,520 Speaker 1: that you find uh in bathrooms and subway stations, We're 1019 00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:22,360 Speaker 1: probably on that as well. Wherever you get the podcast, 1020 00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:24,440 Speaker 1: the best thing you can do to help us is 1021 00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:26,560 Speaker 1: to just rate and review us wherever you have the 1022 00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:28,640 Speaker 1: power to do so. If you can leave some stars 1023 00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:31,440 Speaker 1: you know on you know this program or that, or 1024 00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:34,080 Speaker 1: on a weird object in a bathroom, do so, leave 1025 00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:36,440 Speaker 1: a nice review and make sure you've again subscribe to 1026 00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:39,239 Speaker 1: not only this show, but our other show, Invention as well. 1027 00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:43,680 Speaker 1: Invention is a weekly exploration of human techno history, one 1028 00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:46,719 Speaker 1: invention at a time. Huge thanks as always to our 1029 00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:51,120 Speaker 1: excellent audio producers Sethan Nicholas Johnson and Maya Cole. If 1030 00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:52,520 Speaker 1: you would like to get in touch with us with 1031 00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:55,120 Speaker 1: feedback about this episode or any other, to suggest a 1032 00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:57,680 Speaker 1: topic for the future, to tell us about your dreams 1033 00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:00,360 Speaker 1: or your lack of school dreams, or or just to 1034 00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:03,520 Speaker 1: say hi, you can email us at contact at stuff 1035 00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:15,120 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your 1036 00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:17,319 Speaker 1: Mind is a production of iHeart Radio's How Stuff Works. 1037 00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:19,640 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeart 1038 00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:22,319 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 1039 00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:34,279 Speaker 1: favorite shows.