1
00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:04,920
Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways is not brought to you by crushing global debt. Instead,

2
00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:07,760
Speaker 1: it's brought to you by the United States of Absurdity,

3
00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:10,280
Speaker 1: which is a new book that's just out from Penguin Books.

4
00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:13,040
Speaker 1: It's written by the guys who do The Dollar Podcast,

5
00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:15,520
Speaker 1: and it's about those strange, weird little episodes in American

6
00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:18,880
Speaker 1: history that you've never heard of, things like the Kentucky

7
00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:21,960
Speaker 1: meat Shower of eighteen seventy six or the straw hat

8
00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:24,920
Speaker 1: riots of the early nineteen hundreds. And this really happened.

9
00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:27,520
Speaker 1: There truly were people here in America who were not

10
00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:31,400
Speaker 1: okay with other people wearing straw hats and so well,

11
00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:34,360
Speaker 1: they were willing to fight about it. Believe me, it happened. Anyway.

12
00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:37,559
Speaker 1: It's out there, just came out just like yesterday, I think,

13
00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:40,600
Speaker 1: or last week. It's written by Dave Anthony, Gareth Reynolds

14
00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:44,360
Speaker 1: again of The Dollar. The United States of Absurdity unstold

15
00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:47,880
Speaker 1: stories from American History. Pick up a copy of today.

16
00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:50,920
Speaker 1: Also brought to you by an an HBO documentary film

17
00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,160
Speaker 1: that's just out called Mommy Dead and Dearest true crime

18
00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:56,720
Speaker 1: story which you probably at least some of you have

19
00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:59,959
Speaker 1: heard about. It's about Dee Dee Blanchard and her wheelchair

20
00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:04,399
Speaker 1: bound daughter Gypsy Rose, who Gypsy was horribly sick and

21
00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:07,320
Speaker 1: d d took very very good care of her. But

22
00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:10,120
Speaker 1: it turns out d d Well had Munchausen by proxy

23
00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:13,240
Speaker 1: and Gypsy wasn't sick at all. Gypsy wind up murdering

24
00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:17,120
Speaker 1: d d It's a it's a crazy story. Through this documentary,

25
00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:19,320
Speaker 1: you can get a firsthand look at this very strange

26
00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:23,080
Speaker 1: case and it looks at one of psychologies more odd conditions,

27
00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:26,360
Speaker 1: much Housen by proxy syndrome. So the documentary is called

28
00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:29,319
Speaker 1: Mommy Dead and Dearest. Premiers Monday, May fifteen at ten

29
00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:31,280
Speaker 1: pm on HBO. And I'm sure they're going to do

30
00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:46,440
Speaker 1: reruns to Thinking Sideways. I'll brought there what I don't know,

31
00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:52,600
Speaker 1: stories of things we simply don't know the answer too. Well.

32
00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:56,280
Speaker 1: Hey there, and welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways.

33
00:01:56,320 --> 00:02:01,320
Speaker 1: I am Steve as usual, joined by Joe. All right,

34
00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:06,600
Speaker 1: I thought Joe was going at their honey. Sorry. Well,

35
00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:09,720
Speaker 1: this week we have yet another mystery to talk about,

36
00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:13,000
Speaker 1: as we do every week, and this week we are

37
00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:18,160
Speaker 1: going to cover a ornithological mystery. It's a bird mystery,

38
00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:24,839
Speaker 1: a mystery most foul. Yeah, it's gonna happen. Happen, can't help.

39
00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:27,000
Speaker 1: They're gonna be good. Let's got the funds out of

40
00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:29,639
Speaker 1: the way. Now, I don't really have any What we're

41
00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:32,560
Speaker 1: gonna talk about is we're gonna talk about Washington's eagle.

42
00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:36,880
Speaker 1: But wait, Steve, what did anybody suggest this story? Why? Indeed, Joe,

43
00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:43,000
Speaker 1: they did. This is well scripted dialogue for having right now. Yep,

44
00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:45,880
Speaker 1: this was suggested. This was suggested by Nick quite a

45
00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:48,560
Speaker 1: while back. I've actually been looking into this one on

46
00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:51,079
Speaker 1: and off for the last gosh two years now. So

47
00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:53,720
Speaker 1: thanks to Nick for sending in the suggestion, and also

48
00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:56,920
Speaker 1: a couple of thanks. I want to thank both Alyssa

49
00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:00,120
Speaker 1: and Alec. They were experts that I consulted with for

50
00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,760
Speaker 1: this episode. And then, though she probably doesn't listen, phoebe

51
00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:06,359
Speaker 1: over at the Rare book room at the Multlama County

52
00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:10,760
Speaker 1: Library because she helped me out a bunch took. Thanks

53
00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:14,640
Speaker 1: and Alec. Yeah, so let's tell you what the mystery

54
00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:16,799
Speaker 1: is in the briefest, and then we'll start diving into

55
00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:21,320
Speaker 1: the details. The mystery itself is that in eighteen thirty

56
00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:27,720
Speaker 1: six John James Audubon, Yes, that Audubon recorded a large

57
00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:33,280
Speaker 1: sea eagle, which he named Falco Washingtony bird of Washington

58
00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,360
Speaker 1: is what that's is in his book The Birds of America.

59
00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:40,560
Speaker 1: The problem is that no one has seen that bird since,

60
00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:46,040
Speaker 1: and other than Audubon's paintings and a few other people's accounts,

61
00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:50,640
Speaker 1: there's no real physical evidence of this bird ever having existed. Yeah,

62
00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,720
Speaker 1: it's weird, and he only painted it once. Right on

63
00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:58,760
Speaker 1: painting of it. He has one painting from one specimen

64
00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:03,640
Speaker 1: that he had. He's cited it multiple times, but he

65
00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:05,600
Speaker 1: only did the one. But we're going to talk about

66
00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:08,680
Speaker 1: the Birds of America and he and there he typically

67
00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:12,240
Speaker 1: only did each bird one time, so it's not surprising

68
00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:15,160
Speaker 1: that there's only one agreed. Okay, So let's back up

69
00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:17,000
Speaker 1: the beginning where the order of events are gonna go

70
00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:20,120
Speaker 1: here tonight is we're gonna talk about Audubon. We'll talk

71
00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:23,279
Speaker 1: about his book The Birds of America, and finally eagles

72
00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:25,240
Speaker 1: in general, and then the Washington eagle. That way, it

73
00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:28,080
Speaker 1: kind of all makes sense. Okay. I know I'm weird

74
00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:32,160
Speaker 1: that way to start with Audubon. Excuse me. I've been

75
00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:36,480
Speaker 1: to the Audubon Society, and I consider myself an expert. Okay,

76
00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:40,400
Speaker 1: not really, what is that? Me? Go ahead. I was

77
00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,560
Speaker 1: just with autom On Society like two weeks ago. Yeah,

78
00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:48,080
Speaker 1: I have old Audubon books at my house. We're all experts.

79
00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:52,599
Speaker 1: Birds outside. Can we keep going? Okay, thank you. In

80
00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,840
Speaker 1: five Audubon was born, though at that time his name

81
00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:59,520
Speaker 1: was genre Beane, and he was born in the French

82
00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:03,080
Speaker 1: colony of I really hope I get this right. Let's Kas,

83
00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:07,279
Speaker 1: which is in modern day Haiti. The French were everywhere,

84
00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:09,279
Speaker 1: just like the English and the Spanish, and it was

85
00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:12,800
Speaker 1: one of their colonies. Of course, Audubon was one of

86
00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:17,400
Speaker 1: many children that his father, Jean Audubon, had sired. It

87
00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:19,919
Speaker 1: just happened to be that his mother was one of

88
00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:24,359
Speaker 1: John's mistresses, which technically makes him a bastard, which is

89
00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:27,479
Speaker 1: only important much later on in our story in terms

90
00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,599
Speaker 1: of something to prove. But the short version of his

91
00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:34,719
Speaker 1: life is that he moved from Haiti to France to

92
00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:39,440
Speaker 1: live with his father and his father's wife, and then

93
00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:43,560
Speaker 1: eventually he left France and he moved to the United

94
00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:49,919
Speaker 1: States in order to avoid serving in the Napoleonic Wars.

95
00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:53,200
Speaker 1: And when he got to the US, he changed his

96
00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:58,960
Speaker 1: name from genrebine to John James Audubon so that it

97
00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:02,000
Speaker 1: didn't sound so freend and shoot, because there was a

98
00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:04,400
Speaker 1: little bit of an anti French sentiment at the time.

99
00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:09,119
Speaker 1: There was. Yeah, So after moving here in eighteen oh three,

100
00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:13,680
Speaker 1: Audubon tries his hand at several different occupations and businesses,

101
00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:17,880
Speaker 1: as as many men of the era, semiwealthy young men

102
00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:20,719
Speaker 1: of the time. Did I believe we called that a

103
00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:24,039
Speaker 1: renaissance man. That might be one of the words that

104
00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:27,279
Speaker 1: you could want phrases. It kind of depends, you know,

105
00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:29,160
Speaker 1: I mean, if they're like you know, usually it's more

106
00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:32,520
Speaker 1: like just odd jobs. Well, yeah, a lot of different occupations.

107
00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,040
Speaker 1: He failed that. A lot of occupations is a great

108
00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:37,760
Speaker 1: way to say it, because that's what it was. Through

109
00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:40,320
Speaker 1: most of his life. Audubon was a lover of nature,

110
00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:42,520
Speaker 1: and he spent a great deal of time walking around

111
00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,960
Speaker 1: and studying what he saw and it and occasionally shooting

112
00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:50,080
Speaker 1: it um and he said his preference was for birds

113
00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:53,760
Speaker 1: above all. Else Where he had always drawn what he

114
00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,080
Speaker 1: saw in nature, and he continued to do that when

115
00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:59,320
Speaker 1: he got to the States, though at that time it

116
00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:01,640
Speaker 1: was a hobby. It wasn't as if it was an occupation.

117
00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:03,840
Speaker 1: For him though, you know, like some a lot of

118
00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,800
Speaker 1: people do with their hobbies, he traveled to see different

119
00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:09,600
Speaker 1: birds in different parts of the country, so it was,

120
00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:13,480
Speaker 1: you know, it was really involved hobby. He likes his birds,

121
00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:18,240
Speaker 1: he did. Audubon was a skilled artist. He initially did

122
00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:22,040
Speaker 1: a lot of his work with charcoals and pencils. He

123
00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:26,600
Speaker 1: did later learn to paint, which was how we get

124
00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:28,760
Speaker 1: a lot of the images that are in the Birds

125
00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:32,680
Speaker 1: of America. They were paintings originally, we should should we

126
00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:36,800
Speaker 1: specify that The Birds of America is a book paintings

127
00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:41,440
Speaker 1: of yes and a field guide that's further in. Okay, Sorry,

128
00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:42,880
Speaker 1: you've just referred to it a couple of times when

129
00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,040
Speaker 1: I realized, no, it's okay. The brief version is John

130
00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:51,400
Speaker 1: James Audubon. He makes a giant folio book which is

131
00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:54,040
Speaker 1: called The Birds of America, which is a catalog of

132
00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:58,160
Speaker 1: paintings of birds that he did in this country. It's

133
00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,040
Speaker 1: also got some other associal a text with it that

134
00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:04,080
Speaker 1: he did later on. The one that I saw that was,

135
00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:06,880
Speaker 1: I'm guessing at least a hundred years old, was a

136
00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:12,200
Speaker 1: five volume set of just writings and no images. A lot.

137
00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:14,920
Speaker 1: But if you have a copy of Birds of America

138
00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:18,240
Speaker 1: laying around. Uh, please send it to us. I'll give

139
00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:19,920
Speaker 1: you the post office box. At the end of the episode,

140
00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:22,000
Speaker 1: we'll take it off your hands. Yeah, it would totally

141
00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:24,480
Speaker 1: do that for you. We're givers like that. Yeah, because

142
00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:29,480
Speaker 1: those things are worth like what nothing. Yeah, that's that's

143
00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:34,360
Speaker 1: why they should send them to us. Okay, that's all right, No,

144
00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:38,240
Speaker 1: so um so he's he's doing his art. He also

145
00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:43,240
Speaker 1: eventually he learns taxidermy, which is really important for him

146
00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:47,560
Speaker 1: because it's the early eighteen hundreds and the only way

147
00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:49,959
Speaker 1: that you can get an animal that you can paint

148
00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:54,640
Speaker 1: or draw or study is by killing it, by shooting it.

149
00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:57,360
Speaker 1: It's not the conservation era like it is today. And

150
00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:01,080
Speaker 1: I know that that sounds very contrary to the Audubon

151
00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:04,760
Speaker 1: Society that most people know today, But again, this was

152
00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:08,000
Speaker 1: the early eighteen hundreds, completely different critter in the Audubon

153
00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:12,200
Speaker 1: society wasn't something that started until I think nineteen o five. Yeah,

154
00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:15,800
Speaker 1: but I don't think too many people don't know that

155
00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:19,079
Speaker 1: that Audubon was an avid bird shooter. He loved to

156
00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:21,040
Speaker 1: shoot birds, that's what he did. That's how he got

157
00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:23,000
Speaker 1: his specimens. Well, it wasn't just say, even if it

158
00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:25,600
Speaker 1: wasn't for specimens six, he really liked to shoot birds.

159
00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:28,880
Speaker 1: And if you look at at the birds and in

160
00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:30,920
Speaker 1: the Birds of America, you'll see that every one of

161
00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:35,640
Speaker 1: them has a bullet hole in it. Now you're just

162
00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:44,160
Speaker 1: making okay, number two being for Devon. Okay, So back

163
00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:46,880
Speaker 1: to Audubon. So he goes on. He goes about living

164
00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:52,880
Speaker 1: his life and painting birds, and then in eighteen twenty

165
00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:56,800
Speaker 1: he started doing the paintings for what he would eventually

166
00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:00,200
Speaker 1: call The Birds of America. It was you know, he

167
00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:02,640
Speaker 1: wasn't a rich guy, so he couldn't just fund this

168
00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:04,920
Speaker 1: project himself. So he had to get investors. But he

169
00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,440
Speaker 1: couldn't find any investors in the States. So what he

170
00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:12,000
Speaker 1: does instead is, after he exhausts the investors in the

171
00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:15,160
Speaker 1: States and they won't give him any cash, he goes

172
00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,920
Speaker 1: to Europe. He winds and dines a few people and

173
00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:20,880
Speaker 1: they agreed to invest in the book. The book is

174
00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:24,960
Speaker 1: published not as a single volume, but instead it is

175
00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,480
Speaker 1: done and under a subscription basis, and it is the

176
00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:31,280
Speaker 1: images and all of the stuff that's associated with it

177
00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:37,240
Speaker 1: comes out between eighteen twenty seven and eighteen thirty eight. Well,

178
00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:39,679
Speaker 1: it was a great way to fund it because you

179
00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:43,280
Speaker 1: know it's expensive. Because here's the thing about the Birds

180
00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:46,760
Speaker 1: of America. I am not exaggerated when I say it

181
00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:51,400
Speaker 1: is a huge book. It is gigantic. So here's the

182
00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:56,080
Speaker 1: dimensions on the images themselves. They're thirty nine by twenty

183
00:10:56,120 --> 00:11:01,240
Speaker 1: six inches, which in metric is ninety nine by six centimeters.

184
00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:05,840
Speaker 1: That's a big page. And I mean you could literally

185
00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:11,240
Speaker 1: use it for a coffee table. You could. Um, God,

186
00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:14,760
Speaker 1: what is the term. It wasn't the it wasn't the elephant.

187
00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:17,080
Speaker 1: It was something like the double pack of Derm edition

188
00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:18,959
Speaker 1: or something like that is what they called it. Because

189
00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:21,680
Speaker 1: it was so big it was it was real. I

190
00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:24,040
Speaker 1: saw that. I was like, why oh, because it's such

191
00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:28,280
Speaker 1: a huge stinking book. Um. Now, the great thing about

192
00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:32,720
Speaker 1: doing something that size is it allowed Audubon to present

193
00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:36,679
Speaker 1: the birds that he was painting at true scale, it

194
00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:40,800
Speaker 1: life size scale, so little songbirds were at their normal size.

195
00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:45,880
Speaker 1: Something like the Washington's eagle was actually at scale or

196
00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,240
Speaker 1: dang near scale, because he had so much room for it. Actually,

197
00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:51,560
Speaker 1: even even that I looked that big, I think the

198
00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:53,880
Speaker 1: Washington's ego might have been just a hair tooo big.

199
00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:58,600
Speaker 1: I think I just realized. Actually Washington Eagle was a

200
00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:01,520
Speaker 1: bad example, but there are quite a few birds. Almost

201
00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:04,079
Speaker 1: all of them are at scale because he used a

202
00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:07,360
Speaker 1: grid system for his his paintings and then a grid

203
00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:09,319
Speaker 1: in front of what he was painting to keep everything

204
00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:12,600
Speaker 1: scale proportionately. So he was trying to do it as

205
00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:15,960
Speaker 1: accurately as possible, which is great. Yea. When the book

206
00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:20,160
Speaker 1: was done, it had it used four hundred and thirty

207
00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:23,080
Speaker 1: five plates, which for anybody who doesn't know how the

208
00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,160
Speaker 1: printing process works, to use a plate to press the

209
00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:28,800
Speaker 1: black ink into the page. And so there was four

210
00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:32,040
Speaker 1: hundred and thirty five individual images and once they were

211
00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:35,200
Speaker 1: printed in black and white, then they were hand water colored.

212
00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:37,480
Speaker 1: So that was how all of those were done, which

213
00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:40,520
Speaker 1: is part of the reason it took so long. Were

214
00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:45,160
Speaker 1: so damned expensive. Yeah, So that's that's what the Birds

215
00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:47,360
Speaker 1: of America, the book itself, that's a little bit of

216
00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,000
Speaker 1: the history on it and what Audubon was doing. He

217
00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:54,680
Speaker 1: said that his intention was to literally catalog every bird

218
00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:58,199
Speaker 1: in this nation if he could, and I mean it's

219
00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:00,240
Speaker 1: eleven years, that's a lot of time and trying elevel

220
00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:06,520
Speaker 1: in painting and hunting, literally hunting four specimens. Moving forward,

221
00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:10,080
Speaker 1: that then brings us to the time that he showed

222
00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:14,760
Speaker 1: the world Washington's eagle. Audubon said he observed the bird

223
00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:18,640
Speaker 1: total of five times in nature and took one specimen,

224
00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:23,000
Speaker 1: and he shot, He shot one, he shot, killed, and stuffed.

225
00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:26,120
Speaker 1: He said that he felt the bird was noble and

226
00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:30,640
Speaker 1: reflected the character of the first US president, so he

227
00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:32,840
Speaker 1: named the bird after him. That's why it's got the

228
00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:37,360
Speaker 1: name Washington. And here's what his writing say. It is

229
00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:41,440
Speaker 1: indisputably the noblest bird of its genus that has yet

230
00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:46,160
Speaker 1: been discovered in the United States. I shot it, that's

231
00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:49,560
Speaker 1: not in this text. Think I trust I shall be

232
00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:52,760
Speaker 1: allowed to honor with the name of one yet nobler,

233
00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:55,319
Speaker 1: who is the savior of his country, and whose name

234
00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:57,679
Speaker 1: will ever be dear to it. To those who may

235
00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:00,640
Speaker 1: be curious to know my reason, I can only say that,

236
00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,440
Speaker 1: as the new World gave me birth and liberty, the

237
00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:07,600
Speaker 1: great man who endured ensured its independence is next to

238
00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:10,600
Speaker 1: my heart. He had a nobility of mind and a

239
00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:15,000
Speaker 1: generosity of soul such as here seldom possessed. He was brave,

240
00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,200
Speaker 1: so was the eagle like it too. He was the

241
00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,560
Speaker 1: terror of his foes at his fame, extending from pole

242
00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:25,080
Speaker 1: to pole, resembles the majestic soarings of the mightiest of

243
00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:28,280
Speaker 1: the feathered tribe. If America has reason to be proud

244
00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:30,960
Speaker 1: of her Washington, so has she to be proud of

245
00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:33,360
Speaker 1: her great Eagle. It's a long way to say. He

246
00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:40,200
Speaker 1: really liked this bird. He like the president too, apparently yea, well,

247
00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:45,160
Speaker 1: Washington was dead, so no, he couldn't impress Washington. Washington

248
00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:47,480
Speaker 1: was long gone at this point. Could have been one

249
00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:51,360
Speaker 1: of those like, no, really, I love America. That's very true.

250
00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:56,200
Speaker 1: Could have been. Audubon says that he saw the eagle

251
00:14:56,520 --> 00:15:00,360
Speaker 1: five times over a series of years. He saw first

252
00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,280
Speaker 1: on the Mississippi or first on the Mississippi and Ohio

253
00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:12,520
Speaker 1: rivers near Grand Tower, Illinois, then near Evansville, Indiana, Henderson, Kentucky, Clarksville, Indiana,

254
00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:17,320
Speaker 1: and then Mound City, Illinois. It was the bird that

255
00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,520
Speaker 1: he saw in Kentucky. That's the one that he shot.

256
00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,600
Speaker 1: He said that he saw somebody had slaughtered pigs, I

257
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,760
Speaker 1: think earlier that day or the day before, something like that. Yeah,

258
00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:28,880
Speaker 1: and he was it was going after the scraps. Yeah,

259
00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,680
Speaker 1: as eagles will do. And so he happened to be

260
00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:35,400
Speaker 1: there with his gun and he got himself a sample.

261
00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:38,600
Speaker 1: Poor eagle, Poor eagle. I gotta say, if this thing

262
00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:42,640
Speaker 1: really truly did exist and it's he might have shot

263
00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:51,000
Speaker 1: one of the last existing specimens possibly could be. Yeah. Um,

264
00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:54,440
Speaker 1: so the sample, the or the snut sample, the specimen

265
00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:59,600
Speaker 1: the bird that Audubon shot and then dubbed the Washington eagle.

266
00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:05,400
Speaker 1: This particular bird was really big. The dimensions on this

267
00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:09,440
Speaker 1: animal are that it stood three ft seven inches tall,

268
00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:12,600
Speaker 1: that converts to a hundred and sixteen centimeters, and it

269
00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:17,440
Speaker 1: had a wingspan of ten ft two inches, which is

270
00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:21,720
Speaker 1: just about three meters. So to put that in that's big.

271
00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,840
Speaker 1: And to put that into contact with another big bird

272
00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:29,080
Speaker 1: that most people have seen, if not in person, you've

273
00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:32,880
Speaker 1: seen an imagery and on the television, is the ball leagle,

274
00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,120
Speaker 1: which is the national bird of the United States. The

275
00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:41,680
Speaker 1: ball leagle on average stands somewhere between two ft four

276
00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:45,480
Speaker 1: inches to three ft four inches, which is seventy two

277
00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:49,720
Speaker 1: hundred and two centimeters tall, and as a typical wingspan

278
00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:53,320
Speaker 1: between five ft ten inches to seven ft six inches,

279
00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:56,880
Speaker 1: which converts to one point eight or two point three meters.

280
00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:00,600
Speaker 1: Like that's a significant difference between those. The size of

281
00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:03,400
Speaker 1: these two creatures, it's still not as big as the

282
00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,800
Speaker 1: California condor, though you didn't bring another bird in. I'm

283
00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:10,119
Speaker 1: not saying it's the biggest bird ever. I'm just saying

284
00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:15,800
Speaker 1: their wingspans get the average nine point eight feet, which

285
00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:23,320
Speaker 1: is three meters. For those of you who are wondering, beat,

286
00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:26,640
Speaker 1: I think this is an average you're right, okay, fine,

287
00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:30,359
Speaker 1: about the same size as a condo. Yeah, it's about

288
00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:35,400
Speaker 1: the same size, which huge, Yeah, which are absolutely big birds. Now,

289
00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:40,080
Speaker 1: what's really interesting about the specimen that Audubon had is

290
00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:44,200
Speaker 1: he said that it was a male bird, and when

291
00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:47,760
Speaker 1: it comes to eagles, the males of the species are

292
00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:52,040
Speaker 1: the smaller of the two sexes, which means that the

293
00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:57,320
Speaker 1: females would have been even larger most most birds. Actually, yeah, yeah,

294
00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:00,840
Speaker 1: that typically is the way it is in uh them, Actually,

295
00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,720
Speaker 1: with like a lot of species, Well, yeah, it's it's

296
00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:06,680
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna say, well, I don't I can't think

297
00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,240
Speaker 1: of what the division is, but there is certain animal

298
00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:12,600
Speaker 1: kingdoms where it is the female is the larger of

299
00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:15,119
Speaker 1: the two, and there are others where it is the

300
00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,080
Speaker 1: male And I don't understand why that is. I'm sure

301
00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:22,600
Speaker 1: that that is a huge, long conversation and investigation that

302
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,800
Speaker 1: I just don't have the brain powerful I don't. I

303
00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:29,240
Speaker 1: don't think it's that. I don't. Yeah, I'm I'm guessing

304
00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:31,879
Speaker 1: that's not it. Um Okay, So let's get back to

305
00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:33,680
Speaker 1: the Washington eagle, because there's a couple of more things

306
00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,360
Speaker 1: that he describes that are unusual. One is that he

307
00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:42,200
Speaker 1: describes the tarsus of the bird as having uniform scaling,

308
00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:46,200
Speaker 1: which tarsus is the bones and the feet. He's talking

309
00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:49,760
Speaker 1: about the skin on the bird's feet, because if you

310
00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:53,280
Speaker 1: look at like normal eagles, they've got some really big

311
00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:55,640
Speaker 1: scales up the front of each toe, and then they're

312
00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:58,520
Speaker 1: kind of their scales all over the foot, whereas if

313
00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,639
Speaker 1: you look like a songbird, it's got kind of pebbly

314
00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:04,959
Speaker 1: skin or like chickens. They they're the skin on their

315
00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:07,560
Speaker 1: feet almost looked like it has rings to it. So

316
00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:11,080
Speaker 1: it's a different skin type. And this uniform pattern that

317
00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:14,480
Speaker 1: he describes doesn't match up with any other eagle that

318
00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,080
Speaker 1: is known, doesn't match up with another type of bird.

319
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:22,320
Speaker 1: I have not seen that description on any bird of prey.

320
00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:24,720
Speaker 1: Because if you think about it. A bird of prey

321
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,679
Speaker 1: uses its feet to catch living animals that are likely

322
00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:31,920
Speaker 1: to thrash and fight back, so it needs some defenses there.

323
00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:36,400
Speaker 1: Ok that doesn't mean that there aren't big birds that

324
00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:42,439
Speaker 1: have uniformally um scaled feet, but I didn't see a

325
00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,000
Speaker 1: whole lot on that in the bird of prey, for

326
00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:47,560
Speaker 1: I mean, condors have Sorry, I'm just gonna keep going.

327
00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:51,720
Speaker 1: They have that like kind of scaly. I mean, they're

328
00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:54,840
Speaker 1: scavengers mostly, so they have that kind of scaly type

329
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,960
Speaker 1: the big scales on the little scales more like pebbly

330
00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,200
Speaker 1: like the songbird birds. Can I mean, would you describe

331
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:03,640
Speaker 1: that as that's pebbly, right, I would, Yeah, that's that's

332
00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:08,360
Speaker 1: kind of pebbly. Yeah, just saying yep, continuing to say,

333
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:13,440
Speaker 1: and you're looking at the California California, which are super

334
00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:15,560
Speaker 1: rare and endangered. Just going to throw that out there.

335
00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:19,520
Speaker 1: Don't go playing Audubon and like shooting one. Really don't

336
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,960
Speaker 1: do that. I really don't do that anyway. Sorry, Okay, Okay,

337
00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:25,440
Speaker 1: that's a good example of formulating a bird that would

338
00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:28,159
Speaker 1: have the kind of feet. But they are they're scavengers,

339
00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:34,080
Speaker 1: they're not really hunters. They're not they're not birds fish

340
00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:39,119
Speaker 1: as a primary source of their food. Yeah, Okay. Audubon

341
00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:43,600
Speaker 1: decides that the Washington eagle is what is known as

342
00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,040
Speaker 1: a sea eagle, which puts it in the genus God.

343
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:49,560
Speaker 1: I hope I get this right as well, Hayley. A

344
00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,679
Speaker 1: TuS is how I have phonetically written, So we're going

345
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,159
Speaker 1: to run with that. In that family are birds like

346
00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:59,720
Speaker 1: the bald eagle. There's the white bellied sea eagle in Australia,

347
00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:04,200
Speaker 1: Asian palace fish eagle, or the white tailed eagle in Eurasia.

348
00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:10,119
Speaker 1: There's eight species in this family, and the commonality is

349
00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,840
Speaker 1: that they tend to have white plumage on them, but

350
00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,640
Speaker 1: it's not always in the same place because they're literally

351
00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:19,520
Speaker 1: scattered all over the globe and they're generally the same

352
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:23,840
Speaker 1: size these birds roughly. Yeah, they're all larger birds, large

353
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:28,440
Speaker 1: birds of prey. It's definitely not play. They're not birds

354
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,359
Speaker 1: of play. I mean they kind of are. They probably

355
00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:35,160
Speaker 1: play when they're not too busy killing things. I feel

356
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:37,960
Speaker 1: like I've reached my slaughter quota for the day. Let's

357
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:43,159
Speaker 1: play bird. Yes, I mean, you know, writing the what

358
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,280
Speaker 1: are they? What they what are they called? Right right

359
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:52,920
Speaker 1: in the Yeah, the plumes of hot air. Ye remember columns,

360
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,200
Speaker 1: the thermals, the thermals. There you go writing the thermals

361
00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,960
Speaker 1: has to be a lot of fun. Yeah, that's cool.

362
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,359
Speaker 1: That's a really long Actually, they're probably they're they're just

363
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:04,280
Speaker 1: like sitting there, like going up and up, and if

364
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:10,320
Speaker 1: they I'm really getting over, I'm not even flapping wild wings.

365
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,080
Speaker 1: I'm sure that's what they think. Okay, So all sea

366
00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:18,439
Speaker 1: eagles basically the same size. They're they're roughly all the

367
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:22,800
Speaker 1: same size within you know, within a spread. They all,

368
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,760
Speaker 1: as I said, they all hunt for their food. Primarily

369
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:28,920
Speaker 1: they get it out of the water. So they hunt

370
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,600
Speaker 1: and feed on fish. Now, if we think about bald

371
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:39,920
Speaker 1: eagles in particular, they they're semi scavengers, semi bullybirds. They

372
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,560
Speaker 1: don't care if they find the fish already dead or

373
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:46,479
Speaker 1: they're also pro known to chase other birds away. Like

374
00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,960
Speaker 1: osprey will catch a fish and the bald eagles will

375
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:52,880
Speaker 1: harass them so much that they'll leave the fish behind

376
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,159
Speaker 1: to get away. Ye. I actually saw that happen right

377
00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:57,800
Speaker 1: out here in Ross Island one time. I saw a

378
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:01,480
Speaker 1: couple of bald eagles going after an osprey. Yeah, there

379
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:07,080
Speaker 1: are also really good at catching fish. Are much better

380
00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:11,480
Speaker 1: than bald eagles. Yea there. I mean they'll also the

381
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:13,640
Speaker 1: other that they're like most birds of prey. They'll also

382
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:17,080
Speaker 1: eat mammals. So they are really opportunistic. If there is

383
00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:19,440
Speaker 1: a meal to be had and it is easy to get,

384
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,399
Speaker 1: they will get it. That is their plan, that is

385
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:24,639
Speaker 1: their method. That's that's what I hear. It's like, you know,

386
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,200
Speaker 1: like in place it's like Alaska where bald eagles are thick.

387
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,280
Speaker 1: You can't let your catty, your dog out because they

388
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,360
Speaker 1: will carry it away. I actually had friends who this

389
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,240
Speaker 1: was twenty plus years ago, worked in a cannary and

390
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:40,159
Speaker 1: said that the place was just lousy with bald eagles

391
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 1: around the canny. You couldn't get rid of them because

392
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 1: they were just scavenging because we just made it way

393
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,240
Speaker 1: too each Yeah, oh yeah, it was easy. It was

394
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:53,800
Speaker 1: easy lunch, easy dinner. Why would you leave? So something

395
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:57,399
Speaker 1: that we should note about the description of the eagle

396
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,159
Speaker 1: from Audubon, then this will go because I know lot

397
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 1: of people. Now, Devon, You've got a bunch of people thinking, well,

398
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,199
Speaker 1: I wonder if it was the California condor he was

399
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 1: looking at. Except there's the there's a region thing going

400
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 1: on here, because there's California condor, which you're talking about.

401
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:18,679
Speaker 1: But when Audubon first observed this bird, it was on

402
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 1: the north Mississippi, and he was with a trapper who

403
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:26,199
Speaker 1: told him that the bird was rare, and it was

404
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:29,160
Speaker 1: known to obviously hunt fish, but also to follow hunters

405
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:34,680
Speaker 1: the scavenge. But it was mainly known to be in

406
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 1: the Great Lakes and kind of the larger northeastern continental

407
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 1: United States on the Mississippi, the Ohios, you know, to

408
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 1: Kentucky obviously, where Audubon got his specimen from, Like it

409
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,880
Speaker 1: lived in that region, which is a much more colder

410
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:56,640
Speaker 1: climate than you would find with the California condor. I mean,

411
00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:00,240
Speaker 1: I do want to keep in mind we're talking the trade,

412
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 1: right right, I mean right some years ago. I mean again,

413
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm gonna keep going back to Califor a condor.

414
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 1: They found bones of the condor in like Florida, they

415
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:17,160
Speaker 1: found bones like up pretty far north. And again that's

416
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 1: probably from like five hundred years ago, not two hundred.

417
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 1: But humans have had a lot to do with the

418
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:32,159
Speaker 1: diminishment of ranges of most many creatures, almost everything really,

419
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:34,680
Speaker 1: and so I just I want to continue to frame

420
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,640
Speaker 1: that we are talking two hundred years ago and that

421
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 1: I'm not going to seriously argue it's California condor because

422
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 1: they don't look anything like eagles, but I am going

423
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:46,439
Speaker 1: to say that, like, I want to keep that in mind. Yeah, yeah, no,

424
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 1: I got you totally, totally. And when we get into theories,

425
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 1: which is going to happen shortly, Yeah, that's when we'll

426
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:53,439
Speaker 1: get into That's when we can have a lot of

427
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 1: that discussion because that does play into a lot of

428
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 1: the theories, which there are not that many theories, but

429
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 1: there is a lot of stuff in them. So let's uh,

430
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:05,879
Speaker 1: there's just a little bit here that I have to

431
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 1: go through, and then we'll get into the theories. Because

432
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,920
Speaker 1: so far, nothing that I've told people, for the most part,

433
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 1: about the Washington Eagle really makes it sound much different

434
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 1: than the Bald eagle except for maybe some coloring things.

435
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 1: Except I haven't told you the whole story. First, Audubon

436
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 1: was basically, as I said, the only one to officially

437
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 1: record seeing one of these eagles, so that's a problem.

438
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 1: Based on his accounts, though, it was unlike its cousins,

439
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:43,400
Speaker 1: and it didn't have any white plumage. Well, you said

440
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: it was a male. The one that he shot was

441
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,399
Speaker 1: a male. Yes, I was just gonna say. Female bald

442
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:53,880
Speaker 1: eagles are brown bald eagles. No, the coloring does not

443
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 1: depend on the sex you maybe, yeah, you're thinking the

444
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 1: wrong bird. No, no, no, I want to. I want

445
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 1: everybody to hear what a foul error you made. Okay,

446
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 1: but so no so that Yeah, it kind of does.

447
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 1: But the thing is is that it doesn't have any

448
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 1: of that white plumage. Uh. The third problem, of course,

449
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:21,399
Speaker 1: as I said, is there's no surviving specimens because the

450
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 1: few that supposedly existed have either been lost, destroyed by

451
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:31,679
Speaker 1: time and poor storage, or maybe fires. The fourth problem

452
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:36,239
Speaker 1: is from the description that Audubon gave other than the

453
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:40,159
Speaker 1: size of the bird, hit matches a pretty well with

454
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 1: a juvenile bald eagle, which yeah, and we're gonna we're

455
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 1: gonna get into the bald egle thing because the golden

456
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,879
Speaker 1: eagle I don't think is the right size, but neither

457
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:54,639
Speaker 1: is the bald eagle. Lastly, the other thing that you

458
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:58,479
Speaker 1: will see in the reading about this is the fact

459
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 1: that Audubon did identify several birds, several new species that

460
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 1: in fact didn't exist, so he may have possibly occasionally

461
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 1: just kind of made it up as he went along.

462
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 1: There's a possibility that he may have fudged it a

463
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 1: couple of times. No, that's not that's not it doesn't work. Yeah,

464
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: there was that time the locals brought in that that thing.

465
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,440
Speaker 1: It was a weird bird that had like the beaver

466
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:32,439
Speaker 1: head and everything, and and uh, they were totally punking

467
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 1: was April fools, but he put it in the book. Anyway,

468
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 1: Joe's made up with the Jackalopa birds. Essentially, there's what

469
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 1: he's done. Um, it would be the beaver well done. Okay,

470
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 1: so that is all of our story, and we should

471
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 1: probably go ahead and get into theories. We should probably

472
00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 1: fly right into that, but we're going to take a

473
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 1: nest for a minute and have a word from our sponsors.

474
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 1: You're right back. Today's show is brought to you by Audible.

475
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 1: You may have heard of these guys. They just came out.

476
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 1: They're actually in response to a lot of complaints from

477
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 1: our listeners who were saying that there's a long time

478
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 1: to wait between Thursdays for their Thinking Sideways episode. So

479
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 1: Audible has been created to fill your needs. Uh, They

480
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 1: do all kinds of audio content from audio books all.

481
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 1: They're also doing original shows, news, comedy, and all kinds

482
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 1: of other cool stuff. They have free apps for the iPhone, iPad, Android,

483
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 1: and the Windows phone which you can download. Say, you

484
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 1: can listen anywhere, no matter where you are, and you

485
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: own your books great things, so you can actually reread

486
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 1: them or refer back to them when you want to,

487
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 1: unlike a streaming service. And also if you don't like

488
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 1: one of your books, you can swap it for a

489
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 1: new one thanks to they're great listen guarantee. Also, I

490
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 1: was prousing their catalog I found a great book that

491
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 1: fits in nicely with this week's topic. The book is

492
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 1: American Bird Watching for Beginners by Johnny Pale. I'm not

493
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 1: sure exactly how that format works, but I'm dying to hear,

494
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 1: so somebody let me know. Another great book, Birdman by

495
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 1: Mo Hitter. This actually is a detective mystery novel, but

496
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 1: it's got the word bird in it, so you know

497
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 1: close enough. They're offering our listeners a free audio book

498
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 1: with the thirty day trial membership. Just go to audible

499
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 1: dot com, slash thinking sideways, browse of catalog and pick

500
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 1: yourself a book and start listening. So again, go to

501
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 1: audible dot com slash thinking sideways. That's audible dot com

502
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 1: slash thinking sideways and start listening today and we're back.

503
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: We're gonna get pecking again. Oh god, Okay, do you

504
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 1: guys really worked on this. It didn't even occur to

505
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 1: me to build up a whole stock of bad bird

506
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 1: metaphors bad Yeah, and you actually got results? Kidding. That's

507
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: what the internet is made of, is that? So I

508
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 1: didn't need the internet? Okay, okay, So let's get into theories.

509
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 1: We're getting into the theory. Number one. Theory number one

510
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 1: is the Washington Eagle wasn't real. Just no, it just

511
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 1: wasn't it. Basically. So here's here's what it is. Is.

512
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 1: The reasons that this theory is around is that on

513
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 1: Upon wasn't popular with everyone. I mean, he he was popular,

514
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: but he had a lot of critics. And some of

515
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 1: those critics work his contemporaries, and some of them are

516
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 1: modern day critics, you know, I mean, viewed through the

517
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 1: lens of time, He's he's revered as this great man,

518
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 1: but you know that happens to all these people at

519
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 1: his time, he was just a regular guy who had

520
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 1: foibles in his personality, and some people liked him and

521
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 1: some people didn't. And the people who didn't went after

522
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 1: him because of that, because he could self aggrandize and

523
00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 1: he could sound like he was exaggerating, and that rub

524
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:05,479
Speaker 1: people the wrong ways. Sometimes century flame wars, yes, and

525
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 1: they were literal, you know, they're they're that writing in

526
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 1: publication kind of flame war that we see all through history.

527
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 1: There's a couple of guys that didn't like him. We're

528
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 1: writing articles in Loudon's Magazine of Natural History, and this

529
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 1: is between eighteen one and eighteen thirty five, just just

530
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 1: slamming him, and in parts at times they would later

531
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 1: on go to talk about Washington's eagle. They didn't like him.

532
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 1: This is today known as the iTunes review. Yeah, tell

533
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 1: me about it. Hello. You know, so for everybody that's

534
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 1: listening to this episode and you want to give us

535
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 1: a low iTunes rating, please do so through Loudens Magazine

536
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 1: of Natural History and iTunes will receive it and log

537
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 1: it appropriately. Agreed to House dot gov and just make

538
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 1: some threats. Okay, So, those like I said, they accused

539
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 1: him of a lot of things, one of which was

540
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 1: they said he was sloppy in his work, that his

541
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 1: measurements were bad. And obviously this bird was just a

542
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 1: juvenile bald eagle that just happened to be big, just

543
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 1: happened to be a big juvenile. That happens. So it's

544
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 1: funny you say that, because the juvenile bald eagle technically,

545
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 1: in its wingspan is larger than the adult by a

546
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 1: little bit, and it just happens to be because of

547
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 1: the shapes of the long you know, the long wings

548
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 1: on the long feathers on the wings that come around

549
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 1: at the tips. They have a slight curve to him

550
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 1: that adds just a little bit more and it makes

551
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 1: its wingspan a little bit longer than or wider than

552
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 1: that of the adult, but not significantly, not by the

553
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 1: matter of feet. No, but I mean, yes, there are

554
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 1: big and small versions of everything. I mean, we humans

555
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 1: except their outliers there, you know, there are things that

556
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 1: are there, are they're gonna They're always going to be

557
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:15,439
Speaker 1: birds that are bigger and birds that are smaller. And yes,

558
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 1: it would have been extraordinary for that bird to be

559
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 1: that big, but extraordinary things happen. I mean, there are

560
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 1: humans that are what seven something tall, tall, what's the

561
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 1: tallest team in that's ever existed, And then there are

562
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 1: humans that are like three ft tall. That's the thing.

563
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,359
Speaker 1: There's a wide spectrum. You are right, as Joe said,

564
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 1: there are outliers, and I cannot dispute that that could

565
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 1: very well have been or it could have been that

566
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: he was exposed to a little pile of radioactive plutonium

567
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,399
Speaker 1: and that made him grow bigger, because that's what radiation does.

568
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 1: Eagle Man, that's why he was called Washington's Eagles, because

569
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 1: that's a pretty good superhero name because he because he

570
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 1: had the ruff old front of his shirt and instead

571
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 1: of feathers. Yeah, no, this is not happening. So basically,

572
00:34:58,160 --> 00:34:59,879
Speaker 1: so we're talking about the fact that this bird could

573
00:34:59,920 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 1: have been an outlier, and they say that maybe it

574
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 1: wasn't It wasn't an outlier. Actually, what they say is

575
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 1: that he did bad measurements and that he padded things

576
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:12,839
Speaker 1: so that it looked more impressive when it was in

577
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:17,399
Speaker 1: his book, which plenty of people have done that. I mean,

578
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 1: we've there are so many examples of people making stuff

579
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 1: up and writing it in a book and then being

580
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 1: called out later on and people finding out, oh, that

581
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 1: didn't happen. This isn't actually the memoir of so and so.

582
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,400
Speaker 1: You made all that stuff up see Oprah, not Oprah,

583
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 1: but the person that was on Oprah one of them. Yes,

584
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 1: for a second, let's go back to the bald eagle,

585
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 1: and specifically I want to talk about the juvenile bald eagle,

586
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 1: because that's what his critics are all saying. There was

587
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 1: obviously it was a juvenile bald eagle. Is we're jbe

588
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:55,879
Speaker 1: So if you don't know, let me describe the juvenile

589
00:35:56,239 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 1: versus the adult bald eagle, not in size but in appearance.

590
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 1: So the adults have a white the white plumage on

591
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: their head, and they have a yellow beak, and they

592
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:14,279
Speaker 1: have yellow feet. The juveniles are brown, so their head

593
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:19,400
Speaker 1: is brown, their beak is blackish blue or dark colored,

594
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 1: and their feet are dark colored. They're dark brownish black.

595
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 1: As they progress to maturity, they gain more of the

596
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 1: white in their head until it's full the yellow. Because

597
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 1: a bird's beak, it's like your fingernail, It grows out,

598
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:38,439
Speaker 1: you know, Bird's beaks are constantly growing. The yellow as

599
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 1: they mature appears and then makes its way through the

600
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:46,280
Speaker 1: entire beak until it's continuously yellow and with their feet

601
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,880
Speaker 1: the scales change and molt over time, and then the

602
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 1: yellow comes in and they're not dark. The rest of

603
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:57,280
Speaker 1: their body is typically brown, but they have white feathers

604
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 1: randomly scattered about like that. It's forfer two as a

605
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,720
Speaker 1: speckled pattern, and depending on the bird, because they're all different,

606
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 1: some of them they look like it's, um, it looks

607
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 1: like a you know, kind of a connected dot thing.

608
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 1: There's a little white feathers everywhere, and some there's very few,

609
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:18,919
Speaker 1: if almost none, but that's dependent upon where they are

610
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 1: in their stage of development. Okay, okay, So that's why

611
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 1: people say, well, it's gotta be the juvenile because of

612
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 1: the fact that there's so much, you know, it's just

613
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,399
Speaker 1: the description. If you find one without the white, that's

614
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 1: got to be the right bird. I'm kind of kind

615
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: of what are you What are you thinking here? I

616
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 1: don't know, you want you want to keep going and

617
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:46,759
Speaker 1: be okay, continue on. So we've just described what the

618
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:51,280
Speaker 1: juveniles look like in pretty good detail, and people are saying, well, obviously,

619
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 1: you know, as we said before, Audubon shot a very

620
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,399
Speaker 1: big one and it was a really really big one,

621
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 1: and of course it didn't have any white feathers on it,

622
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 1: because it just happened to be one that didn't have

623
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,359
Speaker 1: a whole lot of white feathers on it. If you can,

624
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 1: and we're going to post a photo of this online,

625
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 1: Audubon's painting is available. One of the prints out of

626
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:15,760
Speaker 1: the book is available. There's a great high res scan

627
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 1: of the of the page from the folio, and it's

628
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,840
Speaker 1: phenomenal to look at. But when you look at that bird,

629
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 1: there's no white on it. And and I will stay

630
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 1: I will state now that it is also very dangerous

631
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 1: to rely on a single painting of an animal and

632
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 1: say that is definitively what they all looked like. Yeah,

633
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 1: I I started to draw conclusions from it myself, until

634
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 1: I caught myself and realized that was the wrong thing

635
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 1: to do. But when you look at that and you

636
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 1: see the images of the juvenile asy, you think, well,

637
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 1: that that could be it. But the thing is Audubon

638
00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:01,720
Speaker 1: knew that the bald eagles juvenile was brown and white

639
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 1: and the adult had the white plumage on its head.

640
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 1: He was aware of that. He had observed them for years.

641
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 1: In his writing, he says he talks about the juvenile

642
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 1: sea eagles like he knew what they were. While some

643
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 1: of his contemporaries thought they were two different birds. He

644
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:23,720
Speaker 1: had always argued that they were one. So to say

645
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 1: that he couldn't identify it is a little weird when

646
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 1: he kept saying, oh, no, that's that's the juvenile he

647
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 1: gets it. So there's there's holes in the argument of

648
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 1: his critics. I would agree with that, but but what

649
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 1: But there's so one of the things that said in

650
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 1: the beginning is maybe the fact that he literally just

651
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 1: made it up. We talked about he could have just

652
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:52,759
Speaker 1: completely fabricated it. There's a really great story that substantiates

653
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:56,800
Speaker 1: possibly that he did that because he had done that before.

654
00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 1: Have either of you ever heard of Constantine Rafinesque of

655
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: course the movie star? Yeah no, nothing, nothing movie star,

656
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:11,959
Speaker 1: I have not. Constantine was a French naturalist and he

657
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 1: he is a He was very prolific in hunting for

658
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:21,879
Speaker 1: and finding and naming new species of animals implants, And

659
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 1: in eighteen eighteen he had seen some of the work

660
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:28,760
Speaker 1: that Audubon was doing and some of his paintings and drawings,

661
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 1: and he decided that the best thing to do was

662
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 1: attached himself to Audubon for a while, since that guy

663
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 1: was always going out into unexplored areas and he could

664
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 1: tag along and find all these other unknown creatures and

665
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 1: plants and name them and have it underneath his catalog

666
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 1: of things that he found a name a really good

667
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 1: buddy movie here. Well, I don't know, because Constantine was

668
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:58,360
Speaker 1: was not a not a normal guy. I mean, the

669
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 1: best thing I've ever heard is the descript of him

670
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:04,319
Speaker 1: is Audubon got a letter of introduction when he showed up,

671
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 1: and that a letter of introduction described him as an

672
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:14,399
Speaker 1: odd fish. He was kind of a weird guy. He's

673
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:19,319
Speaker 1: described as an erratic genius, and most people did not

674
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 1: like him. They just couldn't take him. But Audubon seemed

675
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 1: to kind of take a shine to him. And I

676
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 1: think it's because the antics that this guy went through

677
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 1: all the time. Like apparently in the first month that

678
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:43,880
Speaker 1: they were together, Constantine destroyed Audubon's violin because a bat

679
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,759
Speaker 1: flew in the window and he was convinced that the

680
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:49,360
Speaker 1: bat was a new species, and he was trying to

681
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:54,360
Speaker 1: swap the bat down with the violin, and obviously he

682
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 1: hits something that was not a bat, destroyed it. Constantine

683
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 1: happened to be rich. I do not believe that he

684
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 1: was an exceptionally rich man. He's gonna say that could

685
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:12,840
Speaker 1: explain why struggling Audubon was like, hey, yeah, yeah, I

686
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,160
Speaker 1: think they were. I think they were at the same level.

687
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 1: You know, they weren't. You know, one wasn't socio economically

688
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 1: higher than the other. They were. They were kind of, um,

689
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 1: what's the word I'm looking for, they were the same contemporaries.

690
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:27,360
Speaker 1: I can't think of the word I'm looking for. But

691
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,800
Speaker 1: they were the same thing in this that scale. Stop

692
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 1: looking at me like that, you're laughing at me. I

693
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 1: can't think of the word. It's also, you know, the

694
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:37,839
Speaker 1: same reason Audubon kept Constantino alive. That's why we keep

695
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,920
Speaker 1: you around too. I know, I know, I really that's

696
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:46,960
Speaker 1: why we keep you alive too, Constantine alive. I'm sorry, Okay,

697
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 1: So let's get back to Constantine and Audubon. Constantine was very,

698
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:55,800
Speaker 1: very prolific in his naming. He has, to his credit

699
00:42:56,200 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 1: named ninety four hundred species, ninety four hundred individual plants

700
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:05,800
Speaker 1: and animals that he discovered were unique and gave a

701
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:09,320
Speaker 1: name to. So the guy did this his entire life,

702
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 1: it's pretty intense. He was also a sucker, and I

703
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 1: say that because in the time that he spent with Audubon,

704
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:24,439
Speaker 1: Audubon decided to make him the butt of a joke.

705
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:27,839
Speaker 1: And I don't think that Audubon probably intended for that

706
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:30,799
Speaker 1: joke to go as far as it did. But what

707
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:33,880
Speaker 1: he did is in their travels, he he started describing

708
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 1: animals that he had seen in the America's and those

709
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:40,839
Speaker 1: included which, by the way, Constantine recorded all of these

710
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:45,280
Speaker 1: and named all of these creatures. But he recorded eleven fish,

711
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 1: nine rodents, three snails, two birds, to plants, and one

712
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:55,799
Speaker 1: mollusk that did not exist anywhere. Uh no, but there

713
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 1: was like the big guy jumping rat, and there was

714
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 1: a it was these fish like like it took thirty

715
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 1: fifty years for some of these things to be the

716
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:08,759
Speaker 1: first ones to be found as not real. And oh

717
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:11,920
Speaker 1: my god, how because I mean the scales on one

718
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:18,479
Speaker 1: of the fish were described as bulletproof. Who what? Who

719
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 1: thinks that's real? But somehow it got into the because

720
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 1: Constantine recorded it, and I don't think Audubon expected him

721
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:32,399
Speaker 1: to actually do it. It's unfortunate for Constantine because now

722
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,840
Speaker 1: years later people are going through and reviewing everything that

723
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 1: he cited to see if it's real, and especially the

724
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:43,920
Speaker 1: stuff during the time of Audubon is highly suspect. So

725
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:48,759
Speaker 1: he pulled people's legs. He made a joke and it

726
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:52,280
Speaker 1: got out of hand, and so people say, well, obviously

727
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,759
Speaker 1: he lied and he did this big thing. So he

728
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 1: very well could have just been playing a joke on

729
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 1: the world. Oh I need one more bird, I'll I'll

730
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 1: make one up and squeeze it into the book. Whether

731
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 1: that's all he could have been, I don't know why. Well,

732
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:09,919
Speaker 1: the only reason okay, so the reason that I can

733
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:12,759
Speaker 1: I can think of why. The Birds of America was

734
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:16,840
Speaker 1: a publication. It came out by subscription at a regular interval,

735
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 1: and I am guessing that he had a consistent number

736
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:27,400
Speaker 1: of creatures of images in there each time. And what

737
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 1: if he's fallen short. Oh hell, I need twenty two

738
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 1: and I have one. I guess for me though, it's like,

739
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:39,799
Speaker 1: if you're going to make up a bird, why not

740
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 1: just be like, that's a that's another small little brown

741
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:45,759
Speaker 1: bird that would definitely be easier to get away. It's

742
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 1: super easy to get away. They're not nearly so noticeable,

743
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 1: they're not how do we find it. I'll just go

744
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 1: out in the woods and look why it went. And

745
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:56,399
Speaker 1: I didn't see it while they're small. Yeah, well but

746
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 1: but but the exact opposite, you know, he could say,

747
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:01,920
Speaker 1: well you can't see it. Well, they're super rare, the

748
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 1: trap of the Canadian trapper that I talked to you said,

749
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:07,400
Speaker 1: they're very rare, and you don't see them very often.

750
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 1: So you know, no wonder you have come across one

751
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:14,279
Speaker 1: in the natural world. They're they're just super rare. Guys. Yeah,

752
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:16,759
Speaker 1: it's entirely possible. It's it was already out his way

753
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 1: to extinction. That and that is that is something that

754
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:21,400
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about. It we should talk about

755
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:23,919
Speaker 1: in the theory that we're about to go into, which

756
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 1: is indeed the Washington's Eagle was real, but this could

757
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:32,839
Speaker 1: go either place. Really, never did anybody ever consult any

758
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:35,759
Speaker 1: the local native tribes about this thing? You think that

759
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 1: they would have, like, especially if it had been centrist

760
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 1: before much more numerous, you'd think, I do not I

761
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:46,120
Speaker 1: in the right. In Audubon's writing about the Washington Eagle,

762
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 1: I only he I only saw mention of the Canadian trapper,

763
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 1: And then one or two other um European transplants. He

764
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:00,839
Speaker 1: doesn't talk about talking to the native at all in

765
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:03,360
Speaker 1: regards to this particular bird. Yeah, you would think they

766
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:05,719
Speaker 1: would have been aware of it, you would think, And

767
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 1: that actually is later on in the theories. It's actually

768
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:12,840
Speaker 1: something that comes up later. So let's talk about unless

769
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:15,879
Speaker 1: you guys have anything else for it didn't actually exist. No, no,

770
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:19,920
Speaker 1: not really, okay, making sure it's going to it's real. Obviously,

771
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:24,360
Speaker 1: the assessment that Audubon made that the Washington eagle was

772
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 1: a distinct species if according to this is real. And

773
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:33,279
Speaker 1: the reason is that the reason that we don't see

774
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 1: it anymore is we've just talked about, which is that

775
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 1: a number of times now that it went extinct because

776
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:43,359
Speaker 1: everybody said, you very rarely saw it. You you couldn't ever,

777
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:46,799
Speaker 1: you know, once in a great while. You came across him,

778
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 1: and he just got lucky to have a specimen to

779
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 1: include in the Birds of America, possibly the last. And

780
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:57,800
Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, there are a half dozen

781
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 1: birds in the Birds of America, uh that are now extinct.

782
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:06,520
Speaker 1: So he was the one who recorded some birds that

783
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 1: are no longer in existence, one of which is a

784
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 1: really great example of how Europeans coming to this continent.

785
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 1: May we're responsible for it. And that's the passenger pigeon.

786
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:21,760
Speaker 1: If if anybody doesn't know the story of the passenger pigeon,

787
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:24,839
Speaker 1: it's really interesting and I want to give I want

788
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 1: to share it real fast because it's very applicable. So

789
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 1: the passenger pigeon was it was prolific all over the

790
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 1: North American continent from the Rocky or it's not the yeah,

791
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 1: it's the Rockies east pretty much. They lived in the

792
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 1: eastern half of this this continent, and they were they

793
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 1: were amazingly prolific. They're described as flying over they being

794
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 1: big flocks. They would dark in the sky for an

795
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 1: entire day and only leave behind their droppings, like the

796
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 1: birds would never stop, but they block out the sky

797
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:09,920
Speaker 1: because the flock was so huge, big old storms exactly

798
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 1: when they were hunting, and they said you could you

799
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:15,280
Speaker 1: could kill more than six with one blast from a shotgun,

800
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:19,839
Speaker 1: uh huh shooting. They were so so thick, and they

801
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:21,919
Speaker 1: were a great food source. I mean, people loved them.

802
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 1: Predators loved them because they came to town and it

803
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 1: was free meat and you could just go crazy just

804
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 1: killing these things. And they that was fine in terms

805
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:36,360
Speaker 1: of from the biological or the survival standpoint of the

806
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 1: passenger pigeon, because they used a survival strategy called predators satiation,

807
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:47,200
Speaker 1: which is all the predators come in and they eat

808
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 1: a bunch of you until they are full. But the

809
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 1: population is so huge that you can lose that small

810
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 1: percentage to satisfy the local predators, and your population doesn't

811
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:01,640
Speaker 1: stoff her. I can just imagine though, if you know,

812
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:03,440
Speaker 1: if you want of the one of the pigeons and

813
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:10,480
Speaker 1: the briefings, and you're going like, excuse me, why why

814
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:12,640
Speaker 1: do I love the jokes? Is the pigeon and the briefing?

815
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:15,160
Speaker 1: Because I immediately thought of a World War two pigeon

816
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:18,279
Speaker 1: with a little metal helmet. They're all sitting there and

817
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 1: this guy's got his PowerPoint, excuse me? And who gets

818
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:24,719
Speaker 1: to be who gets to be the goat here? Uh?

819
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 1: Really do? Yeah? But but the thing is with um

820
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 1: So this theory or this practice of predator satiation, the

821
00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:35,320
Speaker 1: passenger pigeon isn't the only creature that doesn't. The cicadas,

822
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 1: you know, the ones that come out every you know,

823
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:40,360
Speaker 1: a dozen or set thirteen or seventeen years or whatever

824
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:43,279
Speaker 1: it is, there are so many of them that in

825
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 1: a night, every predator in the area is stuffed full,

826
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:49,960
Speaker 1: and there are still just gods and gods and gods

827
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 1: of them around. I'm pretty sure rabbits. I'm kidding. No,

828
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 1: I'm kidding. Okay. So the point is, though, is that

829
00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 1: it worked well, and they survive, fived, and they thrived,

830
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:04,879
Speaker 1: except that when Europeans came to this country a couple

831
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:08,239
Speaker 1: of things happened. One, we were netting them, we were

832
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 1: shooting them, we were destroying their nesting grounds. We were

833
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:15,560
Speaker 1: consuming them at a faster rate than they could reproduce.

834
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:20,319
Speaker 1: There were actually guys who they were hunting clubs, and

835
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:23,719
Speaker 1: they would get a telegraph to say where the flock was.

836
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:26,319
Speaker 1: They would hop on a train so that they go

837
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:29,840
Speaker 1: there and start hunting and shooting and killing them, and

838
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 1: they would follow the flock using the train lines. So

839
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:38,480
Speaker 1: suddenly they were using technology to completely outpace the rate

840
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:43,279
Speaker 1: at which these things could reproduce and naturally survive. And

841
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:47,839
Speaker 1: I God, I think the last passenger pigeon, I think

842
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:51,280
Speaker 1: it died in the late eight hundreds. If I remember

843
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 1: wild or in the zoom that it was in, it

844
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:56,719
Speaker 1: was in captivity. It was I was just looking at

845
00:51:56,719 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 1: it like night. She was like it was nineteen. It

846
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:04,600
Speaker 1: was in the tens or twenties, but but it was

847
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:07,279
Speaker 1: by that time there was so much damage done to

848
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:10,400
Speaker 1: the population they couldn't revive. Okay, so now think of

849
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 1: the story of the passenger pigeon, and then let's think

850
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:16,719
Speaker 1: about the Washington eagle, which is already a bird that

851
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:21,520
Speaker 1: maybe in decline because of Europeans coming to this country,

852
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:25,359
Speaker 1: and we are now we're disturbing their hunting grounds, were

853
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:28,720
Speaker 1: disturbing their nesting grounds because unlike say a bald eagle,

854
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:33,360
Speaker 1: which nests in a tree. According to Audubon, these birds

855
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:39,239
Speaker 1: nested on the ground. That so hunters and foresters and

856
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:41,919
Speaker 1: the animals that we bring with us, that that get

857
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:46,320
Speaker 1: loose and go wild, go eat their eggs and destroy

858
00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:50,040
Speaker 1: their young. And you can see this recipe for disaster

859
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:55,120
Speaker 1: for a what I would consider possibly a rather niche

860
00:52:55,160 --> 00:53:00,919
Speaker 1: species of birds of prey. Suddenly who screwed the whole

861
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:05,440
Speaker 1: thing up showing up on the Although you know, you know,

862
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 1: you know, extinction is a part of the whole evolution process,

863
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:11,640
Speaker 1: it might have been that they weren't particularly adaptable, and frankly,

864
00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:14,000
Speaker 1: you know, if I were an ego, I would prefer

865
00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:16,080
Speaker 1: to put my nest up high in a tree rather

866
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:18,000
Speaker 1: than having it somewhere on the ground. I think that

867
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:21,279
Speaker 1: makes sense. Yeah, obviously they want the most sensible. Well,

868
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:23,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know. It seems like if they

869
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:25,880
Speaker 1: were that big and the they were kind of hunting

870
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:29,080
Speaker 1: into that not as much, you know, not the coasts not.

871
00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:32,480
Speaker 1: It doesn't sound like really more rivers and stuff like that.

872
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:35,920
Speaker 1: It's possibly they had actually adapted to eat more mammals.

873
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:39,480
Speaker 1: And so if you put your nest on the ground

874
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:42,800
Speaker 1: so that you're young, like you just kill something and

875
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:45,120
Speaker 1: kind of drag it over to the nest so you're young,

876
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:46,560
Speaker 1: just kind of hop out of the nest and they

877
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:49,279
Speaker 1: can eat the meat off of whatever instead of having

878
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:51,200
Speaker 1: to fly it up to them and regurds to you know,

879
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:53,719
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe I don't, but again, it's not

880
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:58,000
Speaker 1: it's not great. Yeah. Well, okay, let me let me

881
00:53:58,000 --> 00:53:59,640
Speaker 1: clarify this. When I say they made their nests in

882
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:02,200
Speaker 1: the ground, Joe actually said it properly, which is it's

883
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:04,600
Speaker 1: on cliffs. It's not like they're just in the middle

884
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:08,040
Speaker 1: of a field. Yeah, but you can still drag something

885
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:12,439
Speaker 1: like over to it. But well, eagles birds typically most

886
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:16,719
Speaker 1: of the birds of that genus, can only carry something

887
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:21,319
Speaker 1: that is half or less of their body weight. I'm

888
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:24,239
Speaker 1: thinking like rabbits and stuff like deer. Well, but but

889
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 1: what but I'm getting at is that I don't know

890
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:28,680
Speaker 1: that they would necessarily whether it was in a tree

891
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:31,800
Speaker 1: or on a cliff, it would matter because they would

892
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:35,200
Speaker 1: fly in and bring it to the nest. I mean,

893
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:38,239
Speaker 1: you know, bald eagle doesn't drag a rabbit corpse up

894
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:41,200
Speaker 1: a tree. That's true, No, I know. I'm just thinking

895
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:44,640
Speaker 1: more like for the like, I don't know, you can't

896
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:48,719
Speaker 1: necessarily fit a rabbit carcass in a nest. Have you

897
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:51,719
Speaker 1: ever seen a bald I'm just saying, like, I don't

898
00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:54,040
Speaker 1: know what their nests look like, the giant you know,

899
00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:56,920
Speaker 1: the bald eagles. Yes, I'm just saying I don't know

900
00:54:56,960 --> 00:54:59,719
Speaker 1: what the Washington eagles nests look like. I'm trying to

901
00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:05,920
Speaker 1: how it would have been something equivalent to the size

902
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:10,720
Speaker 1: of a bald eagle nest, which is a really big nest. Yes, okay,

903
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:16,520
Speaker 1: so let's keep going here. Um so, remember I talked

904
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:19,920
Speaker 1: about all those critics that that Audubon had, uh, this

905
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:22,520
Speaker 1: is this is something to substantiate that he was telling

906
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:26,720
Speaker 1: the truth. There was for many many years he had

907
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:29,480
Speaker 1: not only in the birds that he drew or painted,

908
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:32,400
Speaker 1: but he would also paint the flora and the fauna

909
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:34,160
Speaker 1: that was around them that he had seen in the

910
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:36,880
Speaker 1: region or the area. Well, one of the things that

911
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:40,800
Speaker 1: he had in one of his drawings was the yellow

912
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:44,719
Speaker 1: water lily, which everybody said, that plant doesn't exist. Man,

913
00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:48,480
Speaker 1: you need to take that out. You didn't discover that.

914
00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:52,520
Speaker 1: Cut it out. That's not real. And it wasn't until

915
00:55:52,719 --> 00:55:56,800
Speaker 1: eighteen seventy six that that plant was quote unquote rediscovered

916
00:55:56,800 --> 00:56:01,400
Speaker 1: in the everclades as being a real thick. So again

917
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:04,440
Speaker 1: he's he's getting criticized, and he doesn't back down because

918
00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:07,279
Speaker 1: he saw it. And this is another example of oh

919
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:11,520
Speaker 1: well look you were actually right. But still I mean,

920
00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:15,799
Speaker 1: they've never found any bones. They have not found any

921
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:19,440
Speaker 1: bones that we can attribute specifically to the Washington eagle

922
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:23,960
Speaker 1: that we know. Um. Yeah. And and the thing is

923
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:27,080
Speaker 1: is people have said, well, maybe they they mixed in

924
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:31,319
Speaker 1: with the with the bald eagle population. Maybe they had

925
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:34,279
Speaker 1: they were able to cross breed. Um. One of the

926
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:38,120
Speaker 1: things though, that I find that makes that probably not plausible.

927
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:44,279
Speaker 1: Is one other physical description of the Washington eagle, which is,

928
00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:48,080
Speaker 1: I believe you pronounced this the sare or the sear.

929
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:50,880
Speaker 1: I'm not sure which, but if you look at birds,

930
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:53,560
Speaker 1: they have that kind of fleshy bit. Some birds have

931
00:56:53,640 --> 00:56:55,640
Speaker 1: that fleshy bit at the top of their beak and

932
00:56:55,680 --> 00:56:57,799
Speaker 1: it's kind of like the cuticle on your hand or

933
00:56:57,840 --> 00:57:02,399
Speaker 1: on your fingernails. Well, the the Washington eagles were described,

934
00:57:02,640 --> 00:57:06,320
Speaker 1: it doesn't The sair, the seer, whichever it is, doesn't

935
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:09,160
Speaker 1: match up to what is seen on bald eagles in

936
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:12,839
Speaker 1: any stage of their development. So again that's one more

937
00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:14,600
Speaker 1: thing that it's like, well, if he's done all these

938
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:16,479
Speaker 1: other things that have been found out to be real,

939
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:19,920
Speaker 1: I have a hard time saying that maybe that he

940
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:24,080
Speaker 1: made it up. Doesn't match up to other species, other birds,

941
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:27,600
Speaker 1: other birds have that kind of feature. Yes, I think

942
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:32,280
Speaker 1: if I remember right, the bald eagle, it's on its beak.

943
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:35,560
Speaker 1: It's more of kind of a smooth strip of skin,

944
00:57:35,680 --> 00:57:38,320
Speaker 1: kind of like what you see on like literally your cuticles,

945
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:40,920
Speaker 1: whereas if you look at some parrots, it's kind of

946
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:45,360
Speaker 1: a bulbous growth or um. What does it? Chickens have

947
00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:48,400
Speaker 1: it on their their the wattles and stuff. It's it's

948
00:57:48,440 --> 00:57:52,120
Speaker 1: kind of bulbous and fleshy. The way he described it,

949
00:57:52,120 --> 00:57:56,280
Speaker 1: it was more of that bulbous growth rather than just

950
00:57:56,520 --> 00:58:01,240
Speaker 1: flatien really close up, so maybe that it had an infection. Well,

951
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:03,280
Speaker 1: but he did see he did see them close up,

952
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:05,720
Speaker 1: because he did. That's how he knew that they nested

953
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:09,080
Speaker 1: on the ground is that at one point he observed

954
00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 1: a mated pair with chicks. So he saw them from

955
00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:16,880
Speaker 1: you know, not too far of a distance. So he

956
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:20,240
Speaker 1: didn't kill the last one. He well, I think he

957
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:23,040
Speaker 1: saw those ones. He came back with his rifle the

958
00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:25,880
Speaker 1: next day the weather was so bad and they were gone,

959
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:27,480
Speaker 1: so eventually he had to get the one he got

960
00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:30,360
Speaker 1: in Kentucky. So but we can say if they were real,

961
00:58:30,720 --> 00:58:32,680
Speaker 1: if they were real, he probably didn't kill the last

962
00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:37,000
Speaker 1: one because there were chicks. Right. Good, Okay, we have

963
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:44,560
Speaker 1: our final theory, which is the thunderbird. Yep, exactly. I mean, hey,

964
00:58:44,600 --> 00:58:48,040
Speaker 1: the thunderbird is considered a cryptid. But what the heck,

965
00:58:48,240 --> 00:58:51,840
Speaker 1: let's let's talk about it, I mean, why not? Yeah? Okay,

966
00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:54,520
Speaker 1: for those of you who don't know what the thunderbird is.

967
00:58:55,160 --> 00:58:58,960
Speaker 1: According to the Internet, it is and I quote, a

968
00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:03,800
Speaker 1: legendary creature. In certain North American indigenous people's history and culture.

969
00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:07,400
Speaker 1: It is considered a supernatural being of power and strength.

970
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:12,000
Speaker 1: It is especially important and frequently depicted in the art, songs,

971
00:59:12,040 --> 00:59:17,360
Speaker 1: and oral histories of many Native American tribes from the

972
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:20,840
Speaker 1: Pacific Northwest to the East Coast to the Great Lakes,

973
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:23,400
Speaker 1: in the Great Plates, so all over the continent, is

974
00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:28,400
Speaker 1: what that's saying. End quote. Was somewhere in there, so

975
00:59:28,520 --> 00:59:34,600
Speaker 1: in in In contemporary American accounts, the thunderbird is described

976
00:59:34,720 --> 00:59:39,040
Speaker 1: as being more of a bat like or pterodactyl like creature.

977
00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:43,440
Speaker 1: But if we strip away that great late eighteen hundreds

978
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:47,680
Speaker 1: early nineteen hundreds reporting that is out there, and instead

979
00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:51,920
Speaker 1: we think about the Washington's eagle, this might be the answer.

980
00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:58,160
Speaker 1: Because the thunderbird was rarely seen. It wasn't around all

981
00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:02,160
Speaker 1: the time. It was really the big and it's scared

982
01:00:02,280 --> 01:00:05,000
Speaker 1: the crap out of people when it showed up. Well,

983
01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:08,480
Speaker 1: something big enough to carry you away probably, or it

984
01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:10,320
Speaker 1: looked like it could be big. I mean, you see

985
01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:13,280
Speaker 1: something with a ten foot wingspan coming swooping down and

986
01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:16,920
Speaker 1: you're in your canoe, I would be scared. Yeah, I

987
01:00:16,960 --> 01:00:20,000
Speaker 1: would belief put a little lake water in the canoe.

988
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:22,480
Speaker 1: Definitely want to like at least grab the kids and

989
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:25,080
Speaker 1: you know, make sure they don't get carried away. Yeah,

990
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:26,800
Speaker 1: I mean, this is a kind of bird that in

991
01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:30,480
Speaker 1: prehistory would have been able to take away small children. Well,

992
01:00:30,560 --> 01:00:33,720
Speaker 1: my understanding is, like, was it Australia, New Zealand They

993
01:00:33,760 --> 01:00:35,960
Speaker 1: had an enormous eagle down there that was like a

994
01:00:36,160 --> 01:00:38,400
Speaker 1: mix This thing look like a little runt. I mean,

995
01:00:38,440 --> 01:00:39,840
Speaker 1: you know what I'm talking about. I can't remember what

996
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:42,640
Speaker 1: it was called, but it was freaking huge. Was this

997
01:00:42,920 --> 01:00:47,440
Speaker 1: in recent history or in prehistory? Uh? Kind of prehistory?

998
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:49,959
Speaker 1: Because I've read a lot about different birds, so I

999
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:52,720
Speaker 1: can't keep them all straight now, Yeah, I know. But

1000
01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:56,919
Speaker 1: and anyway, and you know, it's definitely would be frightening. Yeah.

1001
01:00:56,920 --> 01:01:01,120
Speaker 1: So so it's it's possible that these birds were what

1002
01:01:01,240 --> 01:01:06,920
Speaker 1: the native cultures referred to as the thunderbird, and indeed

1003
01:01:06,960 --> 01:01:11,600
Speaker 1: the species was already dwindling. And I like this because

1004
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:15,200
Speaker 1: this links up an historical record of something and then

1005
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:19,280
Speaker 1: the cultural record of something like that. Really enjoy that

1006
01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:23,040
Speaker 1: you do find. Now here's the problem with the thunderbird,

1007
01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:24,920
Speaker 1: and and this always comes up when you look at

1008
01:01:25,160 --> 01:01:29,640
Speaker 1: something that is considered a cryptid is in contemporary today,

1009
01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:32,560
Speaker 1: you know, in the last fifty to a hundred years,

1010
01:01:32,600 --> 01:01:37,600
Speaker 1: in the descriptions of the thunderbird that you see, they

1011
01:01:37,640 --> 01:01:42,160
Speaker 1: feel outlandish to me because there's the whole pterodactyl angle.

1012
01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:45,440
Speaker 1: But then there's people who say, I saw this giant

1013
01:01:45,640 --> 01:01:49,520
Speaker 1: eagle show up and it flew away with a small

1014
01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:53,840
Speaker 1: deer in its talents, and when it was standing and looked,

1015
01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:57,400
Speaker 1: it must have been ten ft tall. Okay, that to

1016
01:01:57,480 --> 01:02:01,880
Speaker 1: me sounds too fantastic. And these were always a very

1017
01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:04,600
Speaker 1: far flung rural places, you know, the middle of no where,

1018
01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:08,520
Speaker 1: Alaska or all of it? Did he mean all of it?

1019
01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:13,800
Speaker 1: In the middle of the you know, the Great Lakes

1020
01:02:13,920 --> 01:02:17,160
Speaker 1: regions and in Canada and stuff like that, like these

1021
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:21,400
Speaker 1: these sparsely inhabited places. But like I saw this giant bird,

1022
01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:24,320
Speaker 1: and did I know the birds in this area? But

1023
01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:27,920
Speaker 1: if we if we look at this and say, you know,

1024
01:02:28,040 --> 01:02:32,640
Speaker 1: when whenever Audubon was cataloging these was kind of the

1025
01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:37,640
Speaker 1: end of the accepted time when they existed, right, I

1026
01:02:37,680 --> 01:02:41,720
Speaker 1: think I'm willing to say probably this bird was ta

1027
01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:46,000
Speaker 1: end of the species exactly. They you know, that those

1028
01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:49,360
Speaker 1: hatchlings may have been the very last hatchlings ever. I

1029
01:02:49,840 --> 01:02:52,240
Speaker 1: you know, so that discards all of the crazy stuff

1030
01:02:52,600 --> 01:02:56,400
Speaker 1: that's really more contemporary of our time, and I kind

1031
01:02:56,440 --> 01:02:59,680
Speaker 1: of buy it. I don't know, I mean, I like

1032
01:02:59,800 --> 01:03:03,280
Speaker 1: you like that, you know, full circle kind of. There

1033
01:03:03,320 --> 01:03:05,600
Speaker 1: are a lot of reports, not a lot, but there are.

1034
01:03:05,720 --> 01:03:09,920
Speaker 1: There's there's historic context for a large bird of the

1035
01:03:09,960 --> 01:03:14,400
Speaker 1: same description of the one that Audubon had. The only

1036
01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:16,680
Speaker 1: thing that I'll come back to, though, is the lack

1037
01:03:16,720 --> 01:03:23,800
Speaker 1: of any kind of fossil records or or you would, yeah,

1038
01:03:23,920 --> 01:03:28,080
Speaker 1: the difficulty. I now, I am by no means an

1039
01:03:28,080 --> 01:03:30,400
Speaker 1: expert on this stuff, but the one thing that I

1040
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:34,640
Speaker 1: do know about bird bones is that the majority of

1041
01:03:34,680 --> 01:03:38,800
Speaker 1: them tend to be hollow, so they don't preserve as

1042
01:03:38,840 --> 01:03:41,840
Speaker 1: well as a solid, dense bone of that you and

1043
01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:47,120
Speaker 1: I have, which I think probably impedes the ability to

1044
01:03:47,360 --> 01:03:51,160
Speaker 1: find them as readily. It's just like snakes sometimes are

1045
01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:53,959
Speaker 1: super hard to find because they're made of cartilage. Yeah,

1046
01:03:54,240 --> 01:03:57,320
Speaker 1: readily being the operative operative word there. I mean, you

1047
01:03:57,320 --> 01:04:00,280
Speaker 1: would you would expect that if these things existed, somebody

1048
01:04:00,280 --> 01:04:04,200
Speaker 1: would have found one once, you know, But maybe they

1049
01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:06,240
Speaker 1: did and they just didn't know. Maybe maybe they did

1050
01:04:06,320 --> 01:04:09,920
Speaker 1: and they've named it something else and nobody has connected.

1051
01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:12,240
Speaker 1: I mean, I didn't, you know, the dot didn't get connected.

1052
01:04:12,600 --> 01:04:16,000
Speaker 1: I didn't look through and try and find these random

1053
01:04:16,200 --> 01:04:19,280
Speaker 1: bird skeletons. Just I don't know how to do that.

1054
01:04:21,480 --> 01:04:23,200
Speaker 1: It might just be a fluke to that. The ones

1055
01:04:23,240 --> 01:04:25,160
Speaker 1: that have been found have been found by not by

1056
01:04:25,240 --> 01:04:27,240
Speaker 1: experts or people who were really looking for him. They

1057
01:04:27,360 --> 01:04:29,520
Speaker 1: just said it's a bird carcass, you know, and they

1058
01:04:29,560 --> 01:04:33,120
Speaker 1: just you know, walked on just some bird carcass because

1059
01:04:33,120 --> 01:04:35,280
Speaker 1: obviously it would be kind of scattered anyway, could by

1060
01:04:35,320 --> 01:04:40,400
Speaker 1: predators or scavengers, or they were mistaken for bald eagles. Yeah.

1061
01:04:40,680 --> 01:04:43,320
Speaker 1: I mean that's the difficulties. You can't you can't get

1062
01:04:43,360 --> 01:04:47,560
Speaker 1: a sense as readily or as easily of the wingspan

1063
01:04:47,640 --> 01:04:52,320
Speaker 1: of a bird once it's dead and there's just a

1064
01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:56,880
Speaker 1: skeleton left because the feathers have gone. And that is

1065
01:04:56,920 --> 01:04:59,919
Speaker 1: one of the things that helps them achieve that giant wing.

1066
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:02,360
Speaker 1: To me, it is that if they have feathers that

1067
01:05:02,480 --> 01:05:06,200
Speaker 1: are six inches long versus feathers that are I don't know,

1068
01:05:06,400 --> 01:05:10,160
Speaker 1: fifteen inches long, that adds a significant part, you know.

1069
01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:14,040
Speaker 1: I mean, that's for lofty power and flight. So it's

1070
01:05:14,080 --> 01:05:17,360
Speaker 1: it's tough. Yeah, totally. Yea. Frankly, not everybody who sees

1071
01:05:17,400 --> 01:05:19,880
Speaker 1: a rotting bird carcass laying around, you know, it's going

1072
01:05:19,960 --> 01:05:21,440
Speaker 1: to pick it up and spread the wings out to

1073
01:05:21,520 --> 01:05:26,439
Speaker 1: check those check out the wingspans. And there's always that too. Yeah. Yeah,

1074
01:05:26,800 --> 01:05:30,520
Speaker 1: but I think rotbl Devin, I think were you talking

1075
01:05:30,560 --> 01:05:34,640
Speaker 1: more of like old bones than around, not a new

1076
01:05:34,680 --> 01:05:38,240
Speaker 1: carcass preserved bones, because I'm just assuming that, you know,

1077
01:05:38,360 --> 01:05:41,640
Speaker 1: later than nine, there haven't been these things. They haven't existed.

1078
01:05:42,080 --> 01:05:45,080
Speaker 1: That's my assumption, at least probably not Joe, I mean,

1079
01:05:45,080 --> 01:05:48,000
Speaker 1: what's your thoughts on it, Joe. I still like the idea.

1080
01:05:48,120 --> 01:05:50,040
Speaker 1: I don't like the idea that they were real and

1081
01:05:50,040 --> 01:05:52,360
Speaker 1: they're extinct, like that they were real, not that they

1082
01:05:52,360 --> 01:05:54,600
Speaker 1: went extinct. Yeah, yeah, I like that they were real.

1083
01:05:54,720 --> 01:05:56,520
Speaker 1: That it's too bad they want extinct. It's a shame.

1084
01:05:57,640 --> 01:05:59,880
Speaker 1: But you know, seriously, I mean it makes sense that

1085
01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:02,480
Speaker 1: they were not a very adaptable species. They were kind

1086
01:06:02,480 --> 01:06:05,120
Speaker 1: of on the brink anyway. And then people were moving

1087
01:06:05,120 --> 01:06:07,800
Speaker 1: into the Great Lakes area, which is apparently they're stomping grounds.

1088
01:06:08,360 --> 01:06:13,160
Speaker 1: People were flopping grounds. O good one yeah, so yeah,

1089
01:06:13,840 --> 01:06:16,240
Speaker 1: not at all outside the realm of possibility. I think that,

1090
01:06:16,280 --> 01:06:18,200
Speaker 1: I mean, there's there would have been, and by that

1091
01:06:18,240 --> 01:06:22,200
Speaker 1: time there's a significant amount of river traffic that's gonna

1092
01:06:22,200 --> 01:06:24,600
Speaker 1: I mean, you think about it. If they primarily hunt

1093
01:06:24,880 --> 01:06:27,640
Speaker 1: in the lakes and the rivers, in the in the streams,

1094
01:06:28,120 --> 01:06:30,560
Speaker 1: that's going to cause a problem. So you can see

1095
01:06:30,560 --> 01:06:33,240
Speaker 1: how this could very easily be a small disruption that

1096
01:06:33,280 --> 01:06:36,120
Speaker 1: could echo through I'm in agreement. I think we're all

1097
01:06:36,120 --> 01:06:39,440
Speaker 1: in agreement here. I I would prefer to think that

1098
01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:43,160
Speaker 1: they were real and that they went extinct, or and

1099
01:06:43,280 --> 01:06:46,040
Speaker 1: that possibly they were in the historical record through Native

1100
01:06:46,040 --> 01:06:50,680
Speaker 1: American culture. Although I still have a little niggling in

1101
01:06:50,720 --> 01:06:53,960
Speaker 1: the back of my brain because of the prank that

1102
01:06:54,080 --> 01:07:00,360
Speaker 1: Audubon pulled and and jerking uh Constantine's legs, So you know,

1103
01:07:00,560 --> 01:07:02,640
Speaker 1: that's it's like it's one thing to like, you know,

1104
01:07:02,720 --> 01:07:05,360
Speaker 1: destroy his credibility, but putting a little prank on him,

1105
01:07:05,520 --> 01:07:08,880
Speaker 1: destroying her own different things, putting them in your you know,

1106
01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:11,080
Speaker 1: I don't think did he put any of those ones

1107
01:07:11,120 --> 01:07:12,880
Speaker 1: that he made it for Constantine? Did he put in

1108
01:07:12,920 --> 01:07:17,640
Speaker 1: any of his so like it's a step further than that,

1109
01:07:17,920 --> 01:07:21,760
Speaker 1: but it's also you know that's that's fifteen twenty years later.

1110
01:07:23,120 --> 01:07:25,280
Speaker 1: You know, you get desperate. People do funny things when

1111
01:07:25,280 --> 01:07:28,760
Speaker 1: they're desperate, speaking of things that were done out of desperation.

1112
01:07:28,800 --> 01:07:31,280
Speaker 1: And this is a terrible fact. So all of these

1113
01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:33,720
Speaker 1: plates that Audubon had for all of the birds that

1114
01:07:33,760 --> 01:07:37,720
Speaker 1: are in the book, after he passed away, he had

1115
01:07:37,760 --> 01:07:41,720
Speaker 1: Alzheimer's and dimension. He passed away and his wife was

1116
01:07:42,120 --> 01:07:46,600
Speaker 1: desperate for money, and she started selling those plates for

1117
01:07:46,680 --> 01:07:51,840
Speaker 1: scrap metal just to get money. So I think, uh,

1118
01:07:51,920 --> 01:07:55,240
Speaker 1: it's in the low one hundreds of them still exists.

1119
01:07:55,680 --> 01:07:59,720
Speaker 1: The remainder of them. She needed money and so she

1120
01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:03,560
Speaker 1: old them and they were melted down. Yeah, it's one

1121
01:08:03,600 --> 01:08:06,400
Speaker 1: of those things in hitory like, oh well, plus those

1122
01:08:07,400 --> 01:08:09,400
Speaker 1: the birds of American books. I mean, I'm sure a

1123
01:08:09,440 --> 01:08:11,760
Speaker 1: lot of those were cut up, just just a frame

1124
01:08:11,800 --> 01:08:13,680
Speaker 1: and hang on the walls some of those bays and stuff.

1125
01:08:13,720 --> 01:08:16,320
Speaker 1: So I mean that I don't want it. Maybe fifty

1126
01:08:16,360 --> 01:08:19,519
Speaker 1: exists still. I don't name the number, to be honest

1127
01:08:19,560 --> 01:08:22,439
Speaker 1: with you, jas high number. All I know is that

1128
01:08:22,439 --> 01:08:24,040
Speaker 1: when I went to the Rare book room and I

1129
01:08:24,120 --> 01:08:27,280
Speaker 1: asked about it, I was told that, oh yeah, you

1130
01:08:27,320 --> 01:08:29,000
Speaker 1: can look at the books of the writings. But if

1131
01:08:29,040 --> 01:08:31,479
Speaker 1: you want to look at the actual book, you're gonna

1132
01:08:31,520 --> 01:08:34,040
Speaker 1: need to make an appointment, which means I would have

1133
01:08:34,080 --> 01:08:36,400
Speaker 1: to meet with somebody, probably get you know, go through

1134
01:08:36,439 --> 01:08:38,120
Speaker 1: a little lesson of what to do, and then put

1135
01:08:38,120 --> 01:08:41,400
Speaker 1: on the white gloves to even be allowed to touch it.

1136
01:08:42,120 --> 01:08:45,599
Speaker 1: And even then hopefully they would watch you like, oh, oh, yeah,

1137
01:08:47,040 --> 01:08:50,639
Speaker 1: you know they believe me. The gal that Phoebe at

1138
01:08:50,640 --> 01:08:54,320
Speaker 1: the library, she was not but five or eight feet

1139
01:08:54,360 --> 01:08:57,360
Speaker 1: away the entire time that I was looking through the

1140
01:08:57,400 --> 01:09:01,040
Speaker 1: book I was reading. Yeah, they're are definitely valuable. So

1141
01:09:01,120 --> 01:09:03,519
Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's sad that those things are gone,

1142
01:09:03,520 --> 01:09:05,479
Speaker 1: Like it's sad, but you know, it's not at all

1143
01:09:05,600 --> 01:09:08,559
Speaker 1: unknown for people to cut pages out of books, especially

1144
01:09:08,600 --> 01:09:11,439
Speaker 1: like maps and plays and stuff like that. It's not

1145
01:09:11,479 --> 01:09:14,400
Speaker 1: at all unknown. And sadly they weren't always framed. They

1146
01:09:14,439 --> 01:09:17,240
Speaker 1: have a lot of times we're just hung which makes

1147
01:09:17,280 --> 01:09:20,120
Speaker 1: them degrade even faster. But we are way off of that.

1148
01:09:20,200 --> 01:09:22,479
Speaker 1: I think we've finished up with the story here. We're

1149
01:09:22,520 --> 01:09:25,920
Speaker 1: just we're complaining about what a bunch of bad preservation

1150
01:09:25,920 --> 01:09:29,759
Speaker 1: as we all are. Instead, let's talk about the great

1151
01:09:29,840 --> 01:09:34,559
Speaker 1: things that I know everybody listens to this podcast for

1152
01:09:34,920 --> 01:09:36,679
Speaker 1: which is the things we talked about at the very yet.

1153
01:09:36,760 --> 01:09:40,519
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, like our our website, because we have

1154
01:09:40,600 --> 01:09:43,280
Speaker 1: we have a website where we're gonna have the links

1155
01:09:43,760 --> 01:09:45,760
Speaker 1: to this story as well as every story that we've

1156
01:09:45,760 --> 01:09:50,960
Speaker 1: talked about before. That website is Thinking Sideways podcast dot com.

1157
01:09:51,040 --> 01:09:53,920
Speaker 1: You can find the show just about anywhere. So if

1158
01:09:53,960 --> 01:09:57,000
Speaker 1: you use iTunes, you can subscribe and review and leave

1159
01:09:57,040 --> 01:10:00,520
Speaker 1: a rating. If you're using any of the other streaming platforms,

1160
01:10:00,520 --> 01:10:04,400
Speaker 1: whether that be Stitcher or Google Play or any of

1161
01:10:04,400 --> 01:10:07,880
Speaker 1: the other various ones that are out there, do subscribe

1162
01:10:07,920 --> 01:10:10,160
Speaker 1: if you're able to review on there, please do. We

1163
01:10:10,200 --> 01:10:13,639
Speaker 1: appreciate that that's how other people find us. We're on

1164
01:10:13,680 --> 01:10:17,519
Speaker 1: social media, so we have a subreddit, We have the

1165
01:10:17,560 --> 01:10:21,320
Speaker 1: Twitter account. The Twitter account is Thinking Sideways where Devon

1166
01:10:21,400 --> 01:10:24,920
Speaker 1: puts out funny stories and pictures and screen caps are

1167
01:10:25,040 --> 01:10:30,000
Speaker 1: text message conversations. Uh. And we also have the Facebook

1168
01:10:30,040 --> 01:10:33,280
Speaker 1: page and the Facebook group. The pages where you can

1169
01:10:33,400 --> 01:10:35,479
Speaker 1: read some of the fun stuff we find on the internet.

1170
01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:37,240
Speaker 1: The group is where you're gonna get a chance to

1171
01:10:37,280 --> 01:10:42,559
Speaker 1: actually go in and have discussions about episodes with other listeners. Last,

1172
01:10:43,080 --> 01:10:46,280
Speaker 1: we have merchandise, or next, I should say, we have

1173
01:10:46,400 --> 01:10:51,000
Speaker 1: merchandise that is also on the website, so shirts, stickers, mugs,

1174
01:10:51,120 --> 01:10:53,519
Speaker 1: all those good things. There's links for those in the

1175
01:10:53,600 --> 01:10:56,360
Speaker 1: right hand panel. And the last thing that I was

1176
01:10:56,400 --> 01:11:00,320
Speaker 1: going to talk about is emails. So you're able to

1177
01:11:00,400 --> 01:11:02,800
Speaker 1: send us an email if you have a story suggestion,

1178
01:11:02,840 --> 01:11:05,800
Speaker 1: you have a question, you want to talk about an episode,

1179
01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:09,439
Speaker 1: whatever the case may be. That email address is thinking

1180
01:11:09,439 --> 01:11:13,519
Speaker 1: Sideways podcast at gmail dot com. So yes, that's a

1181
01:11:13,560 --> 01:11:17,240
Speaker 1: message fan mail. We like fan mail, especially me. But yeah,

1182
01:11:17,400 --> 01:11:19,120
Speaker 1: I totally thought he was gonna say feather mail and

1183
01:11:19,200 --> 01:11:24,080
Speaker 1: you I was really expecting another bird pun in there. Okay,

1184
01:11:24,640 --> 01:11:29,040
Speaker 1: well that is all that I have so far and

1185
01:11:29,120 --> 01:11:33,840
Speaker 1: for this episode, So I guess if that's all we've got,

1186
01:11:34,840 --> 01:11:36,519
Speaker 1: the birds of a feather doesn't work in this one.

1187
01:11:36,640 --> 01:11:38,840
Speaker 1: We will talk to you guys next week. Tend to

1188
01:11:38,880 --> 01:11:52,120
Speaker 1: fly on out of here. No bird pounds for me, Bye, everybody, Caca, caca,

1189
01:11:53,479 --> 01:11:55,240
Speaker 1: What is about the Western Steve