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Speaker 1: This is Masters in Business with Barry Ridholds on Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 1: This week on Masters in Business, I really have a

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Speaker 1: special guest. Then. I know I say that every week,

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Speaker 1: but this week our special guest is literally a special master.

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Speaker 1: His name is Ken Feinberg, and you probably know him

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Speaker 1: as the person who essentially handled some of the compensation

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Speaker 1: claims of some of the most horrific experiences in in

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Speaker 1: recent American history. He was the special Master of the

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Speaker 1: September eleventh Victims compensation funds the BP Gulf Sentiment general motors.

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Speaker 1: The pays are Boston Marathon, Barman, on and on down

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Speaker 1: the whole list. And uh, I keep saying, I want

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Speaker 1: to try and interview new and different people who might

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Speaker 1: not be the usual economist, hedge fund manager, slash trader

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Speaker 1: and go a loop will further Afield, And today we

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Speaker 1: do just that. I think he's really a fascinating, fascinating gentleman.

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Speaker 1: The country really owes him a debt of gratitude. You

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Speaker 1: may not know this, but he did the entire September

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Speaker 1: eleven compensation fund pro bono. That's him and his office

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Speaker 1: working for thirty three months really to to help resolve

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Speaker 1: one of the great tragedies in recent American history. And

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Speaker 1: he did it a great personal um psychological cost to

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Speaker 1: himself and and no compensation. And especially considering the government

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Speaker 1: told out seven billion dollars in in victim compensation, he

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Speaker 1: certainly was entitled to a reasonable fee. And and he decided, UH,

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Speaker 1: as a patriot, this is what he wanted to do.

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Speaker 1: This is how he wanted to give back to his country.

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Speaker 1: And and that's really quite wonderful. I think you will

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Speaker 1: find him to be a thoughtful, philosophical, interesting gentleman who

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Speaker 1: who has just worked on some of the most amazing

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Speaker 1: things in American history. So, rather than have me babbel

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Speaker 1: without any further ado, my conversation with Special Master Ken Feinberg.

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Speaker 1: This is Masters in Business with Barry Ridholts on Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 1: I have a special guest. And when I say special,

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Speaker 1: he is literally a special Master. One Ken Feinberg. You

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Speaker 1: probably know the name, as I'm only going to do

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Speaker 1: the short version of your curriculum vitae Special Master for

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Speaker 1: the September eleven victims compensation funds. He handled the BP

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Speaker 1: Gulf settlement, the g M ignition situation, the financial crisis

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Speaker 1: known as the Paysar. We'll talk about why that's an

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Speaker 1: inappropriate name. UM Boston Marathon, one, fun Fund bombing, Sandusky,

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Speaker 1: pan State, Newton, Sandy Hook. The This is just the

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Speaker 1: tip of the iceberg. There's many more. I'm gonna start

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Speaker 1: with a quote from the Boston Globe that says, if

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Speaker 1: scientists ever perfect human cloning, they should make copies of

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Speaker 1: Kenneth Finberg, the Brocton Native informer Ted Kenney staffer who

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Speaker 1: has become renowned for allocating money wisely amid political and

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Speaker 1: emotional firestorms. Ken Finberg, Welcome to Bloomberg. Thank you glad

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Speaker 1: to be here. So that's really quite an amazing curriculum, Vita,

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Speaker 1: all the different things you've worked on over the years,

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Speaker 1: and and we're gonna spend a lot of time talking

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Speaker 1: about that. But you once said something and it contradicts

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Speaker 1: some common experience I've had, So I wanna have you

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Speaker 1: start out with responding to this. I always believed that

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Speaker 1: anytime someone says, look, it's not the money, it's the principle,

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Speaker 1: it's almost always the money. But when that came up

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Speaker 1: in the September eleven funds, you actually had an interesting quote.

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Speaker 1: You said, it's not greed, but grief. Explain that money

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Speaker 1: in our society viewed as a barometer or as a

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Speaker 1: reflection on unanticipated, unpredicted grief resulting from the attacks that

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Speaker 1: led to deaths and physical injuries, so that survivors, either

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Speaker 1: of the attacks or the family of the dead, view

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Speaker 1: the compensation as a reflection on the value of a

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Speaker 1: lost loved one in times of grief. And that's why

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Speaker 1: it's almost like an emotional salve to what they've confronted

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Speaker 1: and faced. So it's really in that situation, it's not

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Speaker 1: about the money. It's about what they're feeling and how

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Speaker 1: could you possibly put a number on this? That's right.

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Speaker 1: The toughest part in all of these programs, Barry, that

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Speaker 1: you referenced in your introduction, the toughest pot clearly is

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Speaker 1: not calculating damages or the amount of money that somebody

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Speaker 1: should receive. I think that's not rocket science. It's done

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Speaker 1: every day in our society. Or here, here's your earnings expectations,

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Speaker 1: here's your life expectancy equals, here's an amount for pain

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Speaker 1: and suffering ABC, and there's your award. No, it's the

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Speaker 1: emotion that you confront when you sit one on one

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Speaker 1: with people who have suffered horrible loss and listen to

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Speaker 1: the tales of wool, validating the memory of a lost

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Speaker 1: loved one, venting about life, sun fairness, that is what

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Speaker 1: takes its toll, not calculating dollars. Fascinating. So so we're

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Speaker 1: gonna come back to more of that, but let's let's

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Speaker 1: roll back to your early career. You spent some time

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Speaker 1: as administrative assistant in chief of staff for U S.

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Speaker 1: Senator Ted Kennedy. You graduate n y U Law school.

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Speaker 1: How did you make your way to Ted Kennedy's office.

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Speaker 1: I was a prosecutor in the U. S. Attorney's office

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Speaker 1: in the Southern District of New York and assistant U

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Speaker 1: S Attorney, and I got word through the grape vine

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Speaker 1: that Ted Kennedy was looking for an experienced criminal law

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Speaker 1: practitioner to join his excellent staff on the Senate Judiciary

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Speaker 1: Committee Criminal Law Issues. So I applied. While I'm a Brocton,

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Speaker 1: mass Native, and I applied to Senator Kennedy's office, got

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Speaker 1: an invitation, met with him, he hired me, and that

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Speaker 1: was the beginning of my five years with this extraordinary man.

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Speaker 1: And you eventually become chief of staff for his Senate office.

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Speaker 1: The last two years nineteen seventy eight to nineteen eighty

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Speaker 1: I was his chief of staff in the U. S. Senate,

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Speaker 1: running his operation. And I must say it was a

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Speaker 1: fabulous opportunity. So so here we are. You're you're now

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Speaker 1: a known entity on Capitol Hill. September eleven comes along

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Speaker 1: and uh the Attorney General the United States, John Ashcroft

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Speaker 1: says to you, we need somebody to oversee this congressional funds.

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Speaker 1: And you said, yes, I'll do it, but only if

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Speaker 1: I can do it without compensation. What was the thinking

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Speaker 1: that My thinking was? I thought it highly inappropriate to

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Speaker 1: be making money off of the dead and the injured

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Speaker 1: resulting from a foreign terrorist attack. I thought it would

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Speaker 1: be unpatriotic A and B. I thought that if I

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Speaker 1: were getting money at the same time that I was

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Speaker 1: calculating money for the victims and their families, there would

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Speaker 1: be a firestorm that I'm making blood money. And I

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Speaker 1: just thought I had enough challenges without being paid. But

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Speaker 1: you did this for thirty three months plus, you and

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Speaker 1: most of your office was running this that that's quite

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Speaker 1: a commitment of time and energy and resources and money.

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Speaker 1: It was. But on the other hand, there never was

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Speaker 1: and there never will be a nine eleven precedent like

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Speaker 1: that one. And and I think what the country went

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Speaker 1: through and is still going through in terms of UM,

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Speaker 1: the implications of the nine eleven attacks, UM made it

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Speaker 1: imperative that I step up and do my job as

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Speaker 1: a public citizen. When you graduated at n YU, did

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Speaker 1: you ever imagine you'd find your way to being a

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Speaker 1: Special Master? Is this what you thought your your career

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Speaker 1: would be? Never? Ever? I am a post a child

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Speaker 1: for the proposition that people should not plan their career

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Speaker 1: more than one year in advance, and they shouldn't plan

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Speaker 1: the life too far ahead, because life has a way

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Speaker 1: of throwing curveballs at everybody and changing the best laid plans,

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Speaker 1: to say the least. This is Masters in Business US

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Speaker 1: on Bloomberg Radio. I'm Barry Ridholts. I'm speaking with Special

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Speaker 1: Master Ken Feinberg, and in this segment we're going to

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Speaker 1: discuss the nine eleven victims compensation funds. So obviously nine

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Speaker 1: eleven is a horrific event. My office was headquartered in

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Speaker 1: two World Trade. I was on in the Long Island

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Speaker 1: office and had a running narrative from my head trader,

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Speaker 1: who was um just outside the buildings as everything happened.

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Speaker 1: Horrible seeing the entire country rallies around, uh up surge

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Speaker 1: of patriotism. And now it lands on your lap to

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Speaker 1: figure out how do you compensate three thousand plus victims

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Speaker 1: seven billion dollars? Where do you even begin with something

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Speaker 1: like that? You begin with the statute. Congress passed a

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Speaker 1: law signed by President Bush, and the law said that

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Speaker 1: anybody who wants to come into this fund voluntarily funded

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Speaker 1: entire early by taxpayer public money. Anybody who wants to

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Speaker 1: do it can voluntarily decide, and a special Master appointed

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Speaker 1: by the Attorney General John Ashcroft will calculate individual awards,

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Speaker 1: award compensation, and authorize the U. S. Treasury to cut

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Speaker 1: a check over the thirty three month life of that statute,

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Speaker 1: of that program, that was the whole statute. Under three years,

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Speaker 1: seven percent of all the families that lost a loved

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Speaker 1: one on nine eleven on the airplanes the World Trade

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Speaker 1: Center of the Pentagon came into the fund. Only four

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Speaker 1: people decided they'd rather sue then come into the fund,

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Speaker 1: and they all settled their claims five years later. There

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Speaker 1: never was a trial on responsibility for nine eleven how

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Speaker 1: many of the three percent that didn't come into the

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Speaker 1: fund were people that you described as so grief stricken

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Speaker 1: they couldn't even sign. I think that was it, just

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Speaker 1: just because you told the story of going to a

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Speaker 1: woman's house and saying, I filled out the papers for you,

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Speaker 1: this is two million dollars, just sign here, and she

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Speaker 1: just said she couldn't do that. Woman was so grief stricken, Barry.

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Speaker 1: She didn't sue either, She did nothing nothing. She and

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Speaker 1: I believe a priest who lost a brother were the

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Speaker 1: only two people that neither came into my fund nor

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Speaker 1: litigated against the airlines in the World Trade Center. So

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Speaker 1: paralyzed were they by grief they couldn't do it either.

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Speaker 1: That's just just uh, you learn, you learn in doing

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Speaker 1: what I do, that grief can paralyze people. It can

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Speaker 1: make them act so unreasonably. I said to the woman,

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Speaker 1: Mrs Jones, you're gonna get about three million dollars tax free,

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Speaker 1: set up a fund in your son's name. Go away,

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Speaker 1: Mr Finberg, I lost my son and you're here to

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Speaker 1: talk about money. And she never filed. That's just amazing,

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Speaker 1: that's just just astonishing. So thirty three months, seven billion

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Speaker 1: dollars um. When you first started thinking about the awards,

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Speaker 1: you approached this almost as if it was the regular

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Speaker 1: calculations that courts make every day when there's any sort

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Speaker 1: of wrongful death claim. Was it was that part of

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Speaker 1: the congressional mandate. That was part of the congressional mandate

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Speaker 1: that the congress the law instructed me in calculating damages

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Speaker 1: to consider the torch system. Well, that's just what I did.

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Speaker 1: Some people think that I placed a value on lives

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Speaker 1: based on the moral integrity of an individual. I didn't

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Speaker 1: do that. How do you evaluate the moral integrity of

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Speaker 1: three thousand people, rabbis and priests making that. I don't

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Speaker 1: do that. I simply did what you just said, what

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Speaker 1: would the person have earned over a work life? But

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Speaker 1: four nine eleven, so you got a lot of pushback

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Speaker 1: from like fireman's wives and other people who were making,

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Speaker 1: you know, middle class salaries versus investment bankers and bond

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Speaker 1: traders were making ten and twenty times that amount. How

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Speaker 1: did you deal with that sort of uh, that sort

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Speaker 1: of response to this very very difficult Mr Finberg. My

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Speaker 1: husband was a fireman. He died at the World Trade

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Speaker 1: Center rushing in to save people. You're giving me two

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Speaker 1: million dollars. You're giving my next door neighbor, whose wife

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Speaker 1: was a bank of for Enron four million dollars. What

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Speaker 1: do you have against my husband? You didn't even meet

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Speaker 1: my husband, and yet you're giving me two million less.

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Speaker 1: There is no justice here and you have to deal

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Speaker 1: with that all the time. Always remember this, I've learned.

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Speaker 1: When you have a program that compensates victims, and there

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Speaker 1: are numerous victims, everybody counts other people's money. It's not

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Speaker 1: just what am I going to receive from Fineberg? What

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Speaker 1: am I going to receive as opposed to my next

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Speaker 1: door neighbor? And you better batten down the hatches, embrace

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Speaker 1: yourself because that gets very, very emotional. The old joke

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Speaker 1: defines wealth as a hundred dollars more than my brother

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Speaker 1: in law, and people are looking at at other people now.

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Speaker 1: In subsequent settlement cases, you basically came up with an

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Speaker 1: the same number for everybody. Did did that experience impact

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Speaker 1: subsequent not at all? Not at all. In subsequent matters

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Speaker 1: in which I again I am compensating people as an

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Speaker 1: alternative to the tort system bp GM, the same, everybody

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Speaker 1: gets a different amount because you're trying to entice people

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Speaker 1: out of litigating. What a bad Places like Sandy holl

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Speaker 1: Datto or Sandy Hook, Aurora, Colorado, Virginia Tech, the Boston Marathon.

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Speaker 1: Those aren't alternatives to the tort system. Those are gift programs.

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Speaker 1: You don't waive your right to sue. Take the money

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Speaker 1: and sue if you want. Those programs are very different. There.

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Speaker 1: I design programs where one size does fit all because

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Speaker 1: there's no obligation on the pot of the recipient to

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Speaker 1: do anything but take the money. That's quite fascinating. So

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Speaker 1: a gift program, it's it's an even divide. And did

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Speaker 1: people complain about that? Did you get the same sort

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Speaker 1: of thing or much much less? People complain and criticized

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Speaker 1: no matter what you I wish people could see your

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Speaker 1: face right now. People complain. Why shouldn't they complain, Barry?

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Speaker 1: Why shouldn't Because it's a tragedy and this is a

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Speaker 1: lovely gift and here this will make your life a

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Speaker 1: little bit easier. And let's all start the healing. Prestof Heinberg.

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Speaker 1: I lost my son driving a GM automobile. I lost

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Speaker 1: my son on nine eleven, and you're offering me money

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Speaker 1: bring my son back. How's that? Mr Finberg? And you

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Speaker 1: dealt with that every day, every day the Boston Marathon.

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Speaker 1: Mr Jones, you lost your leg when the Barrathon bombs

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Speaker 1: went off. I'm here to let you know that you're

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Speaker 1: going to receive from one fun Boston tax free, one million,

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Speaker 1: one d and twenty five thousand dollars. I am, Mr Finberg.

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Speaker 1: That's what you're gonna give me. I got a better idea.

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Speaker 1: Keep the money, give me my leg back. How's that?

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Speaker 1: I wish I could do that. If I had the

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Speaker 1: power to do that, you'd have two legs. But I

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Speaker 1: don't have that. I have this gift from people, and thanks,

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Speaker 1: but no thanks. That's that's amazing. You're listening to Masters

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Speaker 1: in Business on Bloomberg Radio. My special guest this week,

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Speaker 1: Special Master Ken Finberg, who oversaw some of the most

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Speaker 1: complex and complicated litigation and alternatives to litigation settlement cases

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Speaker 1: of all time, everything from the September eleven compensation fund

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Speaker 1: to Agent Orange that was one of your early careers,

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Speaker 1: the Dalkon shield. I went. I missed a lot of

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Speaker 1: these um as bestos personal injury litigation. There's a ton

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about the BP Gulf Fund that's still probably

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Speaker 1: the most recent, although I guess GM is a little fresher. Um.

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Speaker 1: What was your role in the BP case? The same?

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Speaker 1: In BP, I was asked by the Obama administration I

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Speaker 1: BP to design and administer a compensation program funded entirely

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Speaker 1: by VP, to compensate the victims of the oil spill,

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Speaker 1: those businesses and fishermen and shrimpers and hotels on the

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Speaker 1: beach in Florida and the Gulf who were adversely impacted

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Speaker 1: economically by the oil spill. And that's what I did

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Speaker 1: for sixteen months. How much money was dispersed out of

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Speaker 1: that fund while you were running it? While I was

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Speaker 1: running it, we distributed in sixteen months six and a

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Speaker 1: half billion dollars speak. He put up twenty billion, and

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Speaker 1: I distributed the first six and a half billion and

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Speaker 1: paid about a half a million claims um and received

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Speaker 1: releases so people wouldn't sue. Were we we compensated of

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Speaker 1: all the victims of the oil spill. So now this

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Speaker 1: was a little different situation. In the nine eleven Victims

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Speaker 1: Compensation Fund, you're appointed by the Attorney General, you do

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Speaker 1: it pro bono. Here you're hired by BP. How is

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Speaker 1: that process so different from each other? Oh? Very different

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Speaker 1: as we as you pointed out, Berry nine eleven was

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Speaker 1: a patriotic duty. This is a international oil company, UM

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Speaker 1: flush who UM decided in its wisdom, we will pay

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Speaker 1: Mr Fineberg and the entire staff to quickly and efficiently

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Speaker 1: calm and said all the victims of the spill. We

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Speaker 1: do not want a replication of excen Valdis litigating for

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Speaker 1: twenty years. We want to get rid of this, and

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Speaker 1: so we set it up, Wrap it up, move on. Now.

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Speaker 1: There was some pushback because you're you're compensated as opposed

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Speaker 1: to non eleven. How did how did you respond to

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Speaker 1: people who said, oh, Finberg can't be fair because he's

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Speaker 1: being paid by BP. Very difficult. First, don't take the money.

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Speaker 1: It's voluntary. If you think that Feinberg is not being

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Speaker 1: fair even though billions of dollars are going out the door,

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Speaker 1: then by all means opt out. So did people have

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Speaker 1: to make that opt interrupt out decision before they knew

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Speaker 1: what their number was. If you present a number, you

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Speaker 1: could take it, or you could see exactly. So I said,

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Speaker 1: here seems pretty reasonable. Well, here's the money. A free preview,

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Speaker 1: a free preview. If you think this adequately compensates you

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Speaker 1: in Amanda, that will allow you to take the money

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Speaker 1: in sixty days and wave your right to litigate. Well, virtually,

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Speaker 1: virtually everybody took the money. Why wouldn't they take the money?

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Speaker 1: They saw money flowing out of our office. Two thousands

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Speaker 1: of people who were apparently satisfied with what they were receiving,

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Speaker 1: took the money, signed a release not to litigate, and

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Speaker 1: walked away. So subsequent to you leaving UM that compensation fund,

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Speaker 1: sixty Minutes did a piece about how what happened afterwards,

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Speaker 1: where people were making claims who essentially had no damage

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Speaker 1: from or at least that was the argument by BP,

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Speaker 1: that there was no damage from the oil spill. That

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Speaker 1: was the argument I I explain to people I'm leaving now,

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Speaker 1: I've resolved two percent of all the eligible victims of

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Speaker 1: the spill, and now there's very few left. BP decided

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Speaker 1: to continue a program, not with me but with others,

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Speaker 1: as you say, and it unraveled. People started filing claims

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Speaker 1: and making making claims on damage and it became pretty ugly.

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Speaker 1: But my favorite version of that was the guy in

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Speaker 1: Norway who claimed claimed damage from that so I received

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Speaker 1: in sixteen months one million, two hundred thousand claims from

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Speaker 1: fifty states. I got about three hundred claims from New York.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know the oil had got here to New York.

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Speaker 1: I got claims from thirty five foreign You got claims

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Speaker 1: in Hawaii, everywhere, Alaska, twenty from Alaska. I got claims

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Speaker 1: from Norway, Sweden, Denmark, China, Nigeria. I got claims from everywhere. Well,

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Speaker 1: everybody gets claims from Nigeria. But um, that's usually just

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Speaker 1: uh an emails fraud. Um. What percentage of the initial

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Speaker 1: claims were junk claims? How many claims did you have

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Speaker 1: to throw I think I threw out two thirds of

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Speaker 1: the Really that many people see money and they that's it.

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Speaker 1: They just go after it. Either they file a claim

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Speaker 1: that makes no sense, or or they file a claim

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Speaker 1: that may make sense, but they have no proof. Mr Feinberg,

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Speaker 1: I lost a hundred thousand dollars because I couldn't fish.

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Speaker 1: I see, well, do you have a tax return or

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Speaker 1: a profit? We do things with a handshake down. Here.

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Speaker 1: This is Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. I'm Barry Ridhalts.

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Speaker 1: I'm here speaking with Ken Feinberg special master. You know,

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Speaker 1: the American Bar Association called you the master of disaster

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Speaker 1: and said that Ken Feinberg is changing the course of

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Speaker 1: mass toward resolution. Are you? Why do you say that? Why?

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Speaker 1: I did nine eleven, I did BP, I did GM.

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Speaker 1: That's almost wrapped up now, right, these three mass towards

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Speaker 1: that's it, Agent Orange, DALC on Shield. Wait a minute,

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Speaker 1: asbestos litigations Agian Orange, DL con Shield and asbestos litigation

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Speaker 1: all were settled under the auspices of a mass taught court.

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Speaker 1: Only nine eleven, BP and um GM are alternative programs,

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Speaker 1: divorced from the courts, separate. So when people say to me,

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Speaker 1: this is the wave of the future, you're changing the law,

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Speaker 1: I'm changing nothing. These programs are aberrations, Barry, they are not.

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Speaker 1: Let me push back on that. So the the Agan

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Speaker 1: Orange case went on for how many years after Vietnam

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Speaker 1: before some young kid named Ken Feinberg comes along and says,

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Speaker 1: to the chemistry companies who only offered twenty five dollars

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Speaker 1: for all of them, versus the veterans who wanted a

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Speaker 1: billion dollars, you said, oh, that's a range I could

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Speaker 1: work with. And so you have to look at this

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Speaker 1: on an I don't need to lecture you on a continuum.

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Speaker 1: Starting with agent orange and then going to asbestos. You

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Speaker 1: basically took the concept of, hey, there's a better way

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Speaker 1: than everybody banging heads and courts, and let's see if

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Speaker 1: we can find some middle grounds that will allow everyone

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Speaker 1: to get on with their lives. There are mass toart

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Speaker 1: cases like agent Orange, like delk on Shield, like asbestos.

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Speaker 1: We are the parties, I think realize you're better off

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Speaker 1: mediating a settlement with Ken Feinberg or a judge or whoever,

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Speaker 1: rather than litigate for years and years and roll the

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Speaker 1: dice and pay the lawyers and who knows how to

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Speaker 1: end up. That's true now, I think most mass towards

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Speaker 1: end up being resolved. Most cases, most litigation, most litigation

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Speaker 1: gets solved in that sense, I mean there there there's

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Speaker 1: a recognition that litigation doesn't work, it's not efficient. But

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Speaker 1: these special programs enacted by Congress or set up by GMA,

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Speaker 1: by BP, I think they're a precedent for nothing, really nothing.

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Speaker 1: So I'm wondering, are you waiting for the phones to

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Speaker 1: ring from Volkswagen? Are you gonna have to settle their

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Speaker 1: case for them. I'll say one thing about Volkswagen which

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Speaker 1: people shouldn't lose sight of. No matter what Volkswagen decides

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Speaker 1: to do about this problem, there are no deaths, there

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Speaker 1: are no injuries. These are problems of property value. Some

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Speaker 1: economists did a study that said, based on the falsification,

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Speaker 1: there's this much more pollution and we could figure out

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Speaker 1: statistically a hundred and thirty five more people died from

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Speaker 1: air pollution than whatever. Interesting a model that I think

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Speaker 1: you're chuckling a little bit. But the Volkswagen problem is

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Speaker 1: overwhelmingly a pr problem and an environmental problem, with the

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Speaker 1: e p A and the Justice Department of looking at it.

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Speaker 1: But in terms of individual will damage to the auto owner,

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Speaker 1: it is a property claim. Now there may be different values,

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Speaker 1: but it's a property claim. You're not involved with calculating,

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Speaker 1: as we did earlier in the segment, calculating lost live

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Speaker 1: physical injury. This is an easy, much easier so al right,

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Speaker 1: so you know, emotionally much easier. That's the Fineberg Law

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Speaker 1: Office in Washington, d C. Volkswagen, if you want to

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Speaker 1: resolve this sooner rather than later. Um, let's let's come

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Speaker 1: back to this. So so we we said earlier. It's

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Speaker 1: easy to calculate the economic value of a life. You

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Speaker 1: look at life expectancy and future earnings, and you could

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Speaker 1: you could do the math philosophically working with all these tragedies.

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Speaker 1: How has that impacted you as the media? Has it

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Speaker 1: changed your perspective on the value of how we all

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Speaker 1: live our lives? Yes, what I do is extremely debilitating, debilitating.

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Speaker 1: Oh my good to shoot. You can't sleep. You're dealing

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Speaker 1: with people who lost loved ones who are venting to

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Speaker 1: you about life sunfairness, validating the memory of a lost

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Speaker 1: loved one, raising issues that Solomon would have trouble resolving.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not Solomon by any means. And you've been

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Speaker 1: compared well unfairly. Um but but it is extremely difficult, difficult,

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Speaker 1: and you become very fatalistic. You do Oh, I don't

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Speaker 1: think I'll plan more than two weeks ahead. You don't

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Speaker 1: know what's going to happen. Life has a way, Barry

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Speaker 1: of throwing curveballs at everybody. I tell people all the time,

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Speaker 1: don't map your future too far out into the future.

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Speaker 1: Life has a way of changing the rules. I used

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Speaker 1: to work with a judge named Anthony Marcarello is a

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Speaker 1: fairly well known judge. This is twenty plus years ago,

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Speaker 1: and um back when I was a practicing lawyer, and

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Speaker 1: when he used to say to people trying to settle cases,

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Speaker 1: look at and by the way, he's still around and

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Speaker 1: still doing mediation. Used to say at my age, I

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Speaker 1: won't even buy green bananas, and everybody would chuckle, but

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Speaker 1: the thought would enter your head. You're saying the same thing,

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Speaker 1: absolutely right. I tell law students, Mr Farnberg, I don't

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Speaker 1: know what I should do with my first job, because

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Speaker 1: three years from now I want to do. Three years

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Speaker 1: from now, take a job that you like, that you

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Speaker 1: can get, that pays what you need, enjoy it. Don't

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Speaker 1: worry about three years from now. I guarantee you three

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Speaker 1: years from now you'll have a different outlook than the

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Speaker 1: day day one when you stop your current position. So

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Speaker 1: so this has really left a mark on you having

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Speaker 1: having gone through this. Some of the negatives are obvious.

427
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 1: What are some of the positives you've taken away from

428
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 1: from listening to these horrific tales of loss? I'll tell

429
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 1: you one positive. Never underestimate bury the charitable impulse of

430
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 1: the American people. It is unbelievable to me. Boston Marathon

431
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 1: in sixty days, a hundred thousand people contribute sixty one

432
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: million dollars for distribution, Virginia Tech in a matter of

433
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 1: weeks eight million dollars, Sandy Hook, Connecticut eleven million dollars, Aurora,

434
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 1: Colorado five million dollars. People in America come to the

435
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: AI to the rescue of people in need. And I've

436
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 1: been around the world. No nation on Earth shows this

437
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 1: degree of charity in times of need the way the

438
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 1: American people do there. But for fortune, we're going to contribute. Hey, listen,

439
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 1: life is random. And how many times you know, I

440
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 1: went to school with a woman who was on one

441
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 1: of the nine eleven playing And how many times do

442
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 1: you hear of people changing seats or missing a plane

443
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 1: and some tragedy happens. It's completely serendipitous, it's completely ran

444
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 1: And then what people have to confront I'll never forget.

445
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 1: A twenty four year old woman came to see me

446
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 1: after nine eleven crying, crying. Mr Finberg, I lost my husband.

447
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 1: He was a fireman at the World Trade Center. He

448
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 1: got out of the building, he escaped. He saw that

449
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 1: some people were trapped in the lobby. He ran back

450
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 1: save those people in the lobby and brought them across

451
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 1: the plaza safely to Lower Broadway. While he was walking

452
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: on the plaza, having rescued them, he was killed when

453
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 1: somebody jumped from the hundred and third floor of the

454
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 1: World Trade Center and hit him, killing them both. Mr Finberg.

455
00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 1: If he had taken one step either way, he'd be

456
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 1: alive today. There is no God that would allow this

457
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 1: to happen. Mr Farmer. So what what do you say

458
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 1: to a person like that? What can you say? Mrs Jones?

459
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 1: I wish I could bring your husband back. I don't

460
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 1: have that power. All I can do small solace is

461
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 1: give you money so you have a bit more financial

462
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 1: security for you and your children. But in terms of

463
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 1: the horror of this, Mrs Jones, there's nothing I can say.

464
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 1: That's that's unbelievable, and and that stays with you forever, forever.

465
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 1: There's no there's no shaking that often and moving moving on.

466
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 1: So you we we mentioned earlier, you have a when

467
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 1: we were speaking before we started. You have a birthday

468
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 1: coming up. You're gonna be seventy. Any plans on retiring,

469
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 1: You're gonna go to Martha's vinion and just watch the

470
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 1: waves or are you enjoying what you're doing too much? Enjoying?

471
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 1: I'm not sure it's the right word, but I I

472
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 1: um satisfy bye bye. By contributing and being productive and

473
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 1: feeling like making a difference, I think that's right. I

474
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 1: don't forget. I grew up in Massachusetts at a time

475
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 1: when a fair heared son of Massachusetts was in the

476
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 1: White House, and I remember as if it was yesterday,

477
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 1: President Kennedy exhorting all of us give back to the country.

478
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 1: Public service is a noble undertaking. Everybody can make a difference.

479
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 1: Government is not a bad word. And um, I try

480
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 1: and live out that creed, I guess you would say

481
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 1: every day. So you've been listening to Master's in Business

482
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 1: on Bloomberg Radio. If people want to read more of

483
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 1: your work, I know you have a book that came

484
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 1: out um some time ago called Valuing the Life. You

485
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 1: occasionally published. Where where can people find um your writing?

486
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 1: My latest book? Who gets what? Public Affairs press? And

487
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 1: you know my personal supply of that book is virtually inexhaustible,

488
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 1: But I think people can go on Amazon and get

489
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 1: it all right? Thank you? So much, Ken Feinberg for

490
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 1: for coming by today. If you enjoy this conversation, be

491
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 1: sure and continue listening. We let the tapes roll and

492
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 1: continue chatting. Uh. Check out my daily column on Bloomberg

493
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 1: View dot com or follow me on Twitter at Rid Halts.

494
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 1: I'm Barry Ridhults. You're listening to Masters in Business on

495
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Radio. Okay, welcome to the podcast portion of our show.

496
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 1: And and Ken, in case I forget to say this,

497
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 1: thank you so much for doing this. This is I

498
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: find this absolutely fascinating. Listeners always make fun of me

499
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 1: for using that word, but really, I've watched you, as

500
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 1: have most of America, watched you operate in the public

501
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: sphere in real time under unthinkable conditions. And I remember

502
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 1: seeing one of the first nine eleven hearings with people

503
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 1: shaking their fist and yawned at you. I just remember thinking, man,

504
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 1: that looks like a terrible, terrible job. I wonder what

505
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: the hell they're paying him, And the answer is it's

506
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 1: a terrible job and they're paying him nothing. Although you're

507
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 1: really saying it's not such a terrible job because you're

508
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 1: giving back and you're doing something patriotic to help the country,

509
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 1: heal and move on. That's right. And also, frankly, are

510
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 1: you're helping people in grief. You can never ever get

511
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 1: angry at people. I mean, what they are going through horrifect,

512
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 1: that's unthinkable, and they have every right to vent about life.

513
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 1: Sun fairness, you are the target of this. Brace yourself

514
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 1: before you take on the assignment. You know what's going

515
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:34,880
Speaker 1: to develop, and um, you just prepare yourself. So you

516
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 1: said it was debilitating earlier, But I've also heard that

517
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 1: you have a couple of ways of coping with this,

518
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 1: not the least of which is long drives with music playing.

519
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,959
Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about that. I Um, during

520
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 1: the day, when you're dealing with these horrible tragedies, you're

521
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 1: witnessing first hen the worst in civilization, I mean the worst.

522
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,440
Speaker 1: Then at night you go to a symphony concert, or

523
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,320
Speaker 1: you go sit at the opera, or you listen to

524
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 1: chamber music, and it's the height of civilization. So you

525
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 1: try and measure and balance the horror with something that

526
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 1: will help ease your pain and ease your mind. When

527
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 1: you're confronting during the day, story after story, you wouldn't

528
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 1: believe these stories. Well, what we've seen and what we've

529
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 1: heard and those of us who especially here in New York,

530
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 1: but obviously Boston Marathon was a similar situation. It's just

531
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 1: human tragedy rit large. There's no other way to to

532
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 1: describe it. Mr Feinberg, I'm twenty four years old. I

533
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,319
Speaker 1: lost my husband. He was a fireman, and he left

534
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:53,359
Speaker 1: me with our two children, six and four. Now you're

535
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:55,799
Speaker 1: going to give me from the nine eleven fund three

536
00:35:55,880 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 1: million dollars. I want it in thirty days. Well, Mrs Jones,

537
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 1: why do you need the money in thirty days? We

538
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 1: have to go to the treasury. They have to do

539
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 1: their due diligence, The bureaucracy has to cut a check.

540
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 1: It might be ninety days, thirty days. I said, why,

541
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 1: why do you need the money so quickly? Why? I'll

542
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 1: tell you why, Mr Fineberg. I have terminal cancer. I

543
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 1: have ten weeks to live. My husband was going to

544
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 1: survive me and take care of our two little ones.

545
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 1: Now they're going to be orphans. I have got to

546
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 1: get this money while I have my faculties and set

547
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 1: up a trust so that they'll be taken care of.

548
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 1: We accelerated the money, Barry and that was a true story.

549
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 1: That wasn't she wasn't blown, accelerated the money, and eight

550
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:52,800
Speaker 1: weeks later she died. After the money was paid, the

551
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,279
Speaker 1: trust was set up, and these two kids are taken

552
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 1: care of, at the very least their college and everything else.

553
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 1: That's unbelie That istbilitating, let me tell you. And yet

554
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 1: as horrific as that sounds, there has to be an

555
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 1: incredible satisfaction that someone in such desperate need comes to

556
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 1: you and you're able to do something to resolve it

557
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 1: favorably too. I don't want to say to their satisfaction,

558
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 1: but to take care of that situation under those circumstances, Well,

559
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 1: you're right that you're not going to satisfy the victims,

560
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:31,919
Speaker 1: and there is no there is no filling that whole.

561
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 1: All you could do is try and ease the suffering

562
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 1: a lot. But it is satisfying to know that you

563
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 1: have run a program, administered a program that has succeeded

564
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 1: the way that Congress or the President of the United States,

565
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 1: are a judge or a governor or a mayor wanted

566
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:53,800
Speaker 1: that program administered. That is very satisfying to know that

567
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 1: the Attorney General of the United States and President Bush

568
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:01,320
Speaker 1: can we want you to do this and that. Afterward

569
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 1: they say, job well done. Yeah, that is very satisfied.

570
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 1: And you've probably handed out more money than just about

571
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 1: anybody else. Uh, certainly more of other people's money than

572
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 1: anybody else in the history if you ever sat down

573
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,320
Speaker 1: and figured out the total amount of checks that dispersed.

574
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 1: But you're right, you're right. Eleven BP, there's fourteen add

575
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:28,360
Speaker 1: everything else up. You're not that far away from eighteen

576
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 1: billion dollars or so. I've become. I tell people, I've

577
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 1: become a nationally known philanthropist with other people's money. It's

578
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 1: sort of an interesting gig. Actually it's not. I don't

579
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:43,359
Speaker 1: know if philanthropy is the right word, but essentially you're

580
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 1: dispersing money, for lack of a better word, A lot

581
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 1: of this is charitable deductions. All the money you mentioned

582
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 1: earlier for the Boston Marathon bombing, and Sandy Hook and

583
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 1: Aurora and and Virginia Tech. Every time there's a problem,

584
00:38:55,760 --> 00:39:00,160
Speaker 1: there's a huge outpouring of support. You're the philanthropist than

585
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 1: chief for the United States. Well, um, you're don't. Forget

586
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 1: of all these programs, the one that is the most unique.

587
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 1: They're all unique, but the one that's really unique is

588
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 1: the nine eleven victim Compensation fund. That fund used public money,

589
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 1: public money, not airline money, not World Trade ceremoney, public money.

590
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 1: And I remember some of the emails I received, Dear

591
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:32,359
Speaker 1: Mr Finberg, my son died in Oklahoma City? Where's my check?

592
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 1: How about the people who are the Mr Finberg? I

593
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 1: don't get it. My daughter died in the basement of

594
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 1: the World Trade Center in the original nine attacks committed

595
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,279
Speaker 1: by the very same type of people. Were as my check?

596
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,799
Speaker 1: And it wasn't just terrorism, Dear Mr Finberg. Last year

597
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:56,920
Speaker 1: my wife save three little girls from drowning in the

598
00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 1: Mississippi River, and then she drowned a heroin were is

599
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 1: my check? You better be careful about setting up special

600
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:09,320
Speaker 1: programs for just certain people. That nine eleven fund was

601
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,839
Speaker 1: the right thing to do. Absolutely, don't ever do it again.

602
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 1: It was a one off, of one of a kind,

603
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 1: of one of a kind. That's right, That's just amazing.

604
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 1: So so what do you say to someone whose family

605
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 1: member died in the World Trade Center attack? This is Jones.

606
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:29,800
Speaker 1: You're absolutely right, asked Congress, why you're not eligible? I

607
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 1: can't change the law. The law is the law. I

608
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:36,840
Speaker 1: have no discretion to add people from nine three or

609
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 1: Oklahoma City or or a drowning victim. I can't do it.

610
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: I can't. And your beef justifiable criticism is with the

611
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 1: Congress of the United States. They enacted the law, so

612
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 1: you threw them under the bus, and hey, I don't

613
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 1: want to because she's she's she's a very good issue. Now,

614
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,399
Speaker 1: I must say, the nine eleven attack, that was something

615
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 1: unique in a American history. I think that's rivaled only

616
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:07,320
Speaker 1: by the Civil War Harbor and maybe the assassination of

617
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:12,879
Speaker 1: President Kennedy. That's it. That's it. That's sue generous and um.

618
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,720
Speaker 1: But still I tell people all the time nine eleven,

619
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:20,399
Speaker 1: don't ever replicate that fund. That was using taxpayer money.

620
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,959
Speaker 1: So so, speaking of nine eleven and using taxpayer money,

621
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 1: we subsequent we subsequently learned a decade later that a

622
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 1: lot of the first responders who showed up at the

623
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 1: World Trade Center subsequently became very very ill, all sorts

624
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 1: of respiratory diseases and cancers and god knows what. The

625
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:47,879
Speaker 1: nine eleven fund was then extended with an additional set

626
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:54,319
Speaker 1: of funding for these first responders. Tell us a little

627
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 1: bit about that. You weren't involved in that. That's well,

628
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 1: that's an offshoot of the nine eleven fund. In other words,

629
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:06,320
Speaker 1: elementary fanness. I can see that people got paid for

630
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 1: those very diseases back then, but now they have manifested

631
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 1: for more people. So the only reason they weren't paid

632
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,879
Speaker 1: back then is they hadn't become ill yet now they're ill.

633
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:17,920
Speaker 1: So if you paid them, then you should pay him now.

634
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 1: I can understand that argument, I guess, and pretty that's

635
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 1: really that's it. After that, you don't ever want to

636
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:26,919
Speaker 1: see anything like this again, I I hopefully, I don't

637
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:32,400
Speaker 1: think you want the United the taxpayer to be funding

638
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 1: compensation for certain victims and not others. Bad things happened

639
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 1: to good people every day in this kind. There's no

640
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 1: nine eleven fund. And I I am dubious about the

641
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 1: wisdom of creating special taxpayer funded programs. We didn't just

642
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 1: one for certain people. We didn't do one after Pearl Harbor,

643
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 1: did we? Well, what happened following the Pearl Harbor. Didn't

644
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:01,239
Speaker 1: do one after the Boston Marathon. That was all private money,

645
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:06,319
Speaker 1: all private money. That's that's quite fascinating. So so tell

646
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:09,760
Speaker 1: us a little something about your background that most people

647
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 1: don't know anything about We know you as the special Um,

648
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 1: special mediator, special master. What don't people know about? Ken

649
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 1: findber If people want to understand my philosophy and all

650
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:26,279
Speaker 1: of this, they have to understand growing up in the

651
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:33,800
Speaker 1: nineteen fifties and sixties in Brockton, Massachusetts, when President Kennedy

652
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:38,400
Speaker 1: was in the White House, a much more optimistic time.

653
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 1: He's promoting public service, ask not what you can what

654
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 1: your country can do for you, the Peace Corps and

655
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 1: UM giving back to the country, and that every individual

656
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:56,360
Speaker 1: can make a difference. And that resonated with me. It

657
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 1: also resonated with me. I grew up in a tight,

658
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 1: loving Jewish family in Brockton when everybody was much more

659
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:09,280
Speaker 1: optimistic about the future and and and and pulling yourself

660
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 1: up and moving forward. My grandparents were immigrants and UM.

661
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 1: It just it helped mold my my outlook. So post

662
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 1: World War two, people are fairly optimistic. But let me

663
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 1: push back a little bit from the history books. In

664
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:29,360
Speaker 1: the fifties, the sort of democles hungover the United States

665
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 1: and the Soviet Union. There was the constant threat of

666
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 1: of nuclear annihilation. In the sixties, it felt like the

667
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 1: entire social fabric of the nation unwounds. And then the

668
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 1: seventies was a period of long it was it was

669
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:47,759
Speaker 1: high gas prices and inflation and recession and of even

670
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:51,280
Speaker 1: worse polyester and disco. So that was a terrible era.

671
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 1: It wasn't until the eighties and nineties again the things

672
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 1: seemed to turn. How negative is that view of history

673
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:01,279
Speaker 1: or how nostal, Jake are you being in your view

674
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:03,800
Speaker 1: of history? What what we're in We're in lay the

675
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:07,720
Speaker 1: truth for for what those eras were, like maybe somewhere

676
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:10,719
Speaker 1: in between. I'm talking about nine fifty seven until the

677
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:15,080
Speaker 1: Vietnam build up around and during that eight year period

678
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 1: when I was a teenager and then got older in

679
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:24,959
Speaker 1: my early twenties. Um, that that was the period where

680
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 1: I was most influenced by optimism. Vietnam and the Civil

681
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,839
Speaker 1: Rights movement changed a lot of that. You're absolutely right, Um,

682
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 1: but it had an impact so so essentially deep down

683
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 1: inside you're an optimistic guy, right. You grew up in

684
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:47,279
Speaker 1: that post World War two era where a can do

685
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:52,839
Speaker 1: spirit affected the country. Brockton, Massachusetts and urban Center. Over

686
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 1: half these shoes worn by Union soldiers in the Civil

687
00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 1: War manufactured in Brockton and um a great industrial mecca.

688
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 1: Really it was. And when I was growing up, it

689
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:10,239
Speaker 1: was still a town where imports and Chinese imports and

690
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:13,000
Speaker 1: Italian imports of shoes, those were that was the next

691
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 1: day or the next year, or the next month or

692
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 1: the next hand. Shut the factors down. That's trying and

693
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:20,640
Speaker 1: and it was just a great time to be a youngster,

694
00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:23,280
Speaker 1: A great time to be a youngster. Let me guess

695
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:26,879
Speaker 1: you're a Red Sox fan. Well, I was a Red

696
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 1: Sox fan for many years now. Of course I've lived

697
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:31,920
Speaker 1: in Washington for thirty five years, and my my children

698
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:37,800
Speaker 1: grew up as Baltimore Oriole fans, redskin fans, Wizards caps

699
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:41,840
Speaker 1: so um. It's hard to maintain in New England allegiance.

700
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:46,320
Speaker 1: When your kids are praising the local schools social teams,

701
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 1: the head of the Redskins comes to you and says, hey,

702
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 1: we have an issue with this naming thing. How do

703
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 1: you resolve the team name? Resolved the team name? For

704
00:46:56,560 --> 00:47:00,360
Speaker 1: goodness sakes, it bothers people. It's building up. It cantinues

705
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 1: to build up. If that many people and that many

706
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:08,520
Speaker 1: critics find a name as being a problem, change the name.

707
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 1: What is the what is the big deal? I am

708
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:15,200
Speaker 1: not especially a politically correct guy, but it's hard to

709
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:18,680
Speaker 1: look at redskins and not say, gee, that's a little

710
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:22,240
Speaker 1: bit offensive. You know. I look, it's not my team.

711
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:24,879
Speaker 1: I'm just if I were. You asked if I'm advising

712
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 1: him for Pizze says, you'll make a fortune the last week.

713
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 1: All that merchandise is out there for the last week,

714
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:35,919
Speaker 1: it'll be every shelf will be sold out, and then

715
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 1: all the new stuff. So just from a business perspective,

716
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,520
Speaker 1: they should change the name. That. That's something I bet

717
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:47,920
Speaker 1: we've never heard heard said before. Um so you mentioned

718
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 1: briefly working with Ted Kennedy, an early mentor of yours.

719
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 1: Who else was as well as jfk H philosophically, But

720
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 1: who else was a mentor of yours early in your career?

721
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 1: Have been four that I've written about. Ted Kennedy was

722
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 1: one master legislator, um unrivaled I think as an effective

723
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:14,040
Speaker 1: US Senator and getting things done. I would say the

724
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 1: other three people that have really influenced my thinking Judge

725
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 1: Jack Weinstein, federal judge here in the in Brooklyn Southern District,

726
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:28,960
Speaker 1: New York Eastern Eastern District, that still sitting ninety four

727
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:32,880
Speaker 1: years old. A giant and sharp as attacked, sharp as attack.

728
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 1: He was the fellow the judge who put me to

729
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:40,359
Speaker 1: work on Agent Orange and made my career. And Judge

730
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 1: Weinstein's had a trement. I still wouldn't think of resolving

731
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:47,880
Speaker 1: an issue without chatting with Judge Weinstein. Still talk to

732
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:52,400
Speaker 1: all the time. Justice Brier, Stephen Brier, very close to me,

733
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:55,759
Speaker 1: just has a book out, has been doing the circuit. Later,

734
00:48:56,640 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 1: Justice Brian and I worked together as aids to ended

735
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:03,040
Speaker 1: to Kennedy. Really next door to one another. We sat

736
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:06,239
Speaker 1: in the same room and we're very close friends. And

737
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 1: Justice Bryan has had a profound impact on my outlooking,

738
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 1: on my career. And finally, a Professor Robert Potofsky, I

739
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 1: know the name of nationally recognized anti trust expert who

740
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 1: taught me and I was his intern and school and

741
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 1: then he went on to head up the FTC. He's

742
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 1: still alive living in Washington. And Professor Potofsky got me

743
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:34,800
Speaker 1: into a teaching career. Teach, and those are the people

744
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 1: that really influenced my outlook. That's a heck of a

745
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 1: good list right there. Well, everybody needs mentors. You have

746
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 1: mentors for sure. Absolutely. My mentors don't sit on the

747
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:47,800
Speaker 1: Supreme Court or are one of the great senators. But

748
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 1: I have some people who have influenced me over the years. Um,

749
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:55,640
Speaker 1: that are pretty interesting. Your father and mother. I grew

750
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 1: up in Brockton in a very loving family with my

751
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 1: brother and sister, and we knew that no matter what

752
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:05,240
Speaker 1: happened during the day at school or at work or whatever,

753
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 1: we would always come home and a very loving mother

754
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 1: and father would be waiting to nurture, to counsel, to guide,

755
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:16,640
Speaker 1: to love, and believe me, that had a huge impact

756
00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:20,359
Speaker 1: on the children. I can imagine. It's one of those

757
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 1: things that are impossible to replicate, and people look at

758
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:28,640
Speaker 1: that as a core issue in in the direction the

759
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 1: country is going. The current generation, so your kids are

760
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:35,880
Speaker 1: now old enough to have kids of their own, that

761
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 1: generation seems to be very different than the parents you

762
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:43,200
Speaker 1: and I grew up with. Their now helicopter parents who

763
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:47,239
Speaker 1: do everything from the kid for the kids, from you know,

764
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 1: cradle to until they're married. It's it's a very different

765
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 1: upbringing than I think my generation or your generation experience. Yes,

766
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:59,520
Speaker 1: but you hope that you instill values in your children

767
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 1: that a time honored. No matter what the material change

768
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:08,319
Speaker 1: or the environmental change, the pace of life, you hope

769
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:12,480
Speaker 1: that the core values about love and respect and and

770
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:17,960
Speaker 1: reputation and judgment stay with them. Hope you could do

771
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:21,759
Speaker 1: much worse than that. Um So we mentioned the big

772
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:26,279
Speaker 1: four mentors of yours philosophically, who are the people who

773
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:32,120
Speaker 1: influenced your your outlook? Of those those people, Judge Weinstein

774
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:36,400
Speaker 1: are very activist. Judge believes that the courts should be

775
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:39,239
Speaker 1: there to help the disenfranchised and the and the and

776
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:42,960
Speaker 1: the less well off. Senator Kennedy, who of course was

777
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:46,120
Speaker 1: a champion of liberal causes and it was determined to

778
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:50,799
Speaker 1: help the little man. HM. Justice Bryan, who's consistently one

779
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:54,480
Speaker 1: of the four justices on the Court that um it

780
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 1: feels very strongly about issues like gay marriage and affirmative

781
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 1: action and things like that civil it's justice. So those

782
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 1: are the people that influence you. So let's talk a

783
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:08,320
Speaker 1: little bit about authors who you've written a couple of books.

784
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:11,080
Speaker 1: Who are some of your favorite authors. What are some

785
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:13,839
Speaker 1: of the books that you've enjoyed over the years, whether

786
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 1: they relate to law or or elsewhere. Ernest Hemingway, Really,

787
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 1: I mean Ernest hemmy Way. They say that he may

788
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:24,759
Speaker 1: have he may be in decline today in terms of

789
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:28,200
Speaker 1: some of the major authors. Is revisionist. I don't know

790
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:31,279
Speaker 1: about that. I think Henyways tremendous. We were in Key

791
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 1: West not too long ago when we got to tour

792
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:36,879
Speaker 1: the Hemingway House, which was quite fast, great and people

793
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:43,800
Speaker 1: don't understand a um a massive collection of Hemming Hemingway

794
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:49,400
Speaker 1: memorabilia and drafts. Said in the Kennedy Library in Boston,

795
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:54,520
Speaker 1: the JFK like really um. Hemingway's children, I guess were

796
00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:59,359
Speaker 1: very close to Jacquelin Kennedy Onassis, and Jacqueline Kennedy when

797
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:02,880
Speaker 1: she was alive, suggested that an appropriate place to lodge

798
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:06,560
Speaker 1: those house those materials. And now the JFK Library in

799
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:13,160
Speaker 1: Boston is a key depository of Hemyway memorabilia. Who else, well,

800
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:16,000
Speaker 1: the Great gats Be. Everybody reads to kill a Mark

801
00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:18,880
Speaker 1: and where everybody reads. I don't get a chance really

802
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:25,800
Speaker 1: to read much fiction. How about nonfiction fiction? I'm you know,

803
00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:29,080
Speaker 1: it's it's on the run. So it's the New York

804
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:32,840
Speaker 1: Times every day, in the Washington Post, it's the New Yorker,

805
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:37,879
Speaker 1: It's the New York Review of Books, you don't really get.

806
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:39,800
Speaker 1: I don't I don't get now in the summer, I

807
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:44,160
Speaker 1: just finished reading Evan Thomas's book on Richard Nixon. Fabulous book.

808
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:46,960
Speaker 1: I mean Richard Nixon. I don't want to say that

809
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:52,120
Speaker 1: Evan Thomas is a revisionist who who um is sympathetic

810
00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 1: to Nixon. But by laying out the story you can't

811
00:53:57,239 --> 00:54:03,799
Speaker 1: help but UM see a side of Nixon that otherwise

812
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:06,800
Speaker 1: people forget because of Watergate and everything. Well, the post

813
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:10,600
Speaker 1: Watergate image almost becomes a caricature and you lose sight

814
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:13,839
Speaker 1: of the real man underneath that. That happens in those

815
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:16,920
Speaker 1: sort of situations, and you don't have to be revisionists.

816
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:18,719
Speaker 1: You just have to show the full picture, and I

817
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:21,920
Speaker 1: think Thomas does that. Then I read on a lark,

818
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:25,880
Speaker 1: I read the History of the Nile River. Really, I

819
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:28,600
Speaker 1: just picked it up at a local bookstore on Martha's Vineyard.

820
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:31,840
Speaker 1: The history of the Nile going back to the ancient

821
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:34,239
Speaker 1: Egypt right up to the present time. That's the history

822
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:38,600
Speaker 1: of civilization. That is the history of civilization going back

823
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:42,320
Speaker 1: thousands of years, and the importance of that river in

824
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:46,320
Speaker 1: world history. And um, I found that to be interested.

825
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:51,600
Speaker 1: So I get sometime but um uh, it's cliche. But

826
00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:55,399
Speaker 1: I'm too busy. It's I can't remember the last piece

827
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:59,640
Speaker 1: of fiction I read, and I end up really plowing through,

828
00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:02,320
Speaker 1: not nearly as much nonfiction as I like. But I

829
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:04,000
Speaker 1: try and go through a book or two a month

830
00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:05,719
Speaker 1: if i'm if I'm lucky. But I'm on a train

831
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:07,880
Speaker 1: every day, so that's where I get to do it. Now.

832
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:11,680
Speaker 1: My friend, my friend Mark Byros is a big believer

833
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:19,840
Speaker 1: in in these um oral books. He must read a

834
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:23,320
Speaker 1: book a week on tape. He's read everything on tape,

835
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:26,040
Speaker 1: goes to work on tape, coming home on tape at

836
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:29,640
Speaker 1: night on tape, on vacation on tape, and takes airplane

837
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:32,600
Speaker 1: trips on tape. And he says, oh, I read that.

838
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:34,520
Speaker 1: I read that. I read All the Light You Cannot

839
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:36,920
Speaker 1: See and The Girl on the Train and all these

840
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:40,040
Speaker 1: best sellers. He listen him and not this listening isn't

841
00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:42,759
Speaker 1: the same as reading. I have people tell me, you know,

842
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:45,440
Speaker 1: I I listened to your podcast. I'm on the treadmill,

843
00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:48,080
Speaker 1: or I'm taking the train back and forth to work,

844
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:51,160
Speaker 1: or I go out biking. So it's a different experience

845
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:55,080
Speaker 1: hearing it than reading it. I like reading when I can,

846
00:55:55,600 --> 00:55:57,399
Speaker 1: but how often do you get the three or four

847
00:55:57,560 --> 00:56:02,839
Speaker 1: uninterrupted hours you need? And I find that, um, if

848
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:05,360
Speaker 1: I have a moment of where I'm not meeting with

849
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:08,480
Speaker 1: somebody or doing it, I'm so tied up thinking about

850
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 1: my work that it's hard to focus on fiction or

851
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:14,759
Speaker 1: non fiction or anything else because you're so occupied with

852
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:18,200
Speaker 1: what should that person receive or should that person be

853
00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:22,120
Speaker 1: eligible or how much? And you take it home with you.

854
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:24,759
Speaker 1: You strike me as someone if you would have been

855
00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 1: born in a just a few the next generation, you

856
00:56:29,040 --> 00:56:31,520
Speaker 1: would be a guy doing meditation on a regular basis

857
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:36,440
Speaker 1: and a cross legged somewhere and thinking deep thoughts. Um.

858
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:40,400
Speaker 1: You think constantly about what you learn and what I

859
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 1: do is that public policy involves real people, live people

860
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:51,880
Speaker 1: that have needs. And when you're thinking about whether it

861
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:57,600
Speaker 1: a close down the government or you're thinking about um

862
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:03,680
Speaker 1: uh filibuster rain a health bill, you know you better

863
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:08,040
Speaker 1: step back that there are real people in ramifications. There

864
00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:12,439
Speaker 1: are ramifications. When I do the nine eleven or BP

865
00:57:12,719 --> 00:57:16,880
Speaker 1: or any one of these program Boston Marathon, Aurora, Sandy Hook,

866
00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:24,440
Speaker 1: Sandy Hook, twenty four first graders murdered. Just unbelievable. Unbelievable,

867
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:29,560
Speaker 1: it's unthankful, it's unconscionable. And and here I am meeting

868
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:33,880
Speaker 1: with families who lost first grades, and I'm just telling them.

869
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:37,080
Speaker 1: What can you possibly say? You just sit there and

870
00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:42,400
Speaker 1: listen to them. UM vent about life, sun Fannus. That's

871
00:57:42,440 --> 00:57:46,640
Speaker 1: what it's all about, Mr Fineberg. I lost my first

872
00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:51,680
Speaker 1: my first grade child. There is no God, No God

873
00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:55,560
Speaker 1: would allow such a thing. I will never again step

874
00:57:55,680 --> 00:57:59,200
Speaker 1: foot in a church or a synagogue. It can't be

875
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:02,320
Speaker 1: that this God that would allow this. And you have

876
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:07,280
Speaker 1: no answer none. You just listen that that depth of grief.

877
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:12,280
Speaker 1: Supposedly the psychologist will say, losing a child worse than

878
00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:14,400
Speaker 1: losing a husband or a wife or a parent. It's

879
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:17,760
Speaker 1: the worst pain a human can feel. And you hope

880
00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:20,240
Speaker 1: when you do what I do, you hope you will

881
00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:23,360
Speaker 1: not make a mistake. Every time I do one of

882
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:27,760
Speaker 1: these programs to compensate innocent people, I make a mistake.

883
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:31,120
Speaker 1: You can't help it. You can't help it. I remember

884
00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:34,640
Speaker 1: an eighty three year old man came to see me

885
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:39,400
Speaker 1: after nine eleven, Mr Fineberg, crying. He was crying, Mr Finberg,

886
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:43,480
Speaker 1: Guy lost my son at the Pentagon when the plane hit.

887
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:48,120
Speaker 1: He got out, he escaped, but he thought that his sister,

888
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:51,080
Speaker 1: who also worked at the Pentagon, was trapped, so he

889
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:54,840
Speaker 1: went back in to look for her. She had escaped

890
00:58:54,960 --> 00:58:59,920
Speaker 1: through a side door. He died looking for now, Mr Finberg,

891
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:04,320
Speaker 1: my life is over. I'm burying a son. A father

892
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:07,440
Speaker 1: should never bury a son. And I looked at this

893
00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:11,880
Speaker 1: man crying, and I can't believe it. I said to him,

894
00:59:12,880 --> 00:59:16,680
Speaker 1: Mr Jones, this is terrible what happened to your son.

895
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:23,160
Speaker 1: I know how you feel. H He looked at me,

896
00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:28,960
Speaker 1: nice quiet, Mr Finberg. I have some advice for you.

897
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:33,480
Speaker 1: You have a tough job. I don't envy you. Don't

898
00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:37,400
Speaker 1: ever tell somebody like me that you know how I feel.

899
00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:42,640
Speaker 1: You have no idea how I feel. And it sounds

900
00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:47,040
Speaker 1: pretentious and condescending. I wouldn't do that. I will never

901
00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:51,000
Speaker 1: do that. I will never make that mistake again. And

902
00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:55,280
Speaker 1: you learn every time about mistakes and trying to avoid them.

903
00:59:55,760 --> 00:59:59,160
Speaker 1: See my You know, my wife says the difference between

904
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:02,200
Speaker 1: men and women is women hear something and they want

905
01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:04,480
Speaker 1: to listen. Men here it and like, all right, what

906
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:06,840
Speaker 1: do I have to do to fix this? My first

907
01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:10,360
Speaker 1: response when you're telling that is, you know, to honor

908
01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:13,680
Speaker 1: what your son tried to do in saving his sister

909
01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:16,680
Speaker 1: is you have to keep going for the benefit of

910
01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:19,120
Speaker 1: your daughter. And I don't know if that's the right

911
01:00:19,200 --> 01:00:22,680
Speaker 1: thing to say, because I know that they're not looking

912
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:25,360
Speaker 1: for your advice, They're just looking for an year. Be

913
01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:29,520
Speaker 1: careful about that type of response. That's my wife's advice.

914
01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:32,880
Speaker 1: Shut up and listen, don't offer advice, empathize. I wish

915
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:35,960
Speaker 1: I could change this, I can't, and that's it. That's

916
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:38,760
Speaker 1: really not easy to do. And what I've learned over

917
01:00:38,800 --> 01:00:42,120
Speaker 1: the years, the less you say two people in grief,

918
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:49,000
Speaker 1: because you'll be fueling this thing to say the least. Um,

919
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:53,640
Speaker 1: let's take a look at what else. So we went

920
01:00:53,720 --> 01:00:55,560
Speaker 1: through books. I only I know. I only have you

921
01:00:55,640 --> 01:00:58,480
Speaker 1: for another eight minutes. So let's go through some of

922
01:00:58,560 --> 01:01:01,840
Speaker 1: my favorite questions I asked for my last four questions

923
01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:04,400
Speaker 1: I asked all my guests. So you entered the legal

924
01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:09,520
Speaker 1: industry almost forty years ago. What has changed in the industry.

925
01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:13,640
Speaker 1: What is the most significant shift in that field? I

926
01:01:13,840 --> 01:01:18,400
Speaker 1: think the legal industry hasn't changed that much, except there

927
01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:21,600
Speaker 1: are too many lawyers. I mean, we're reading about this

928
01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:25,400
Speaker 1: all the time. These lawyers, you know, we're churning out

929
01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:30,320
Speaker 1: thousands and thousands of lawyers every year, and we're over lawyered.

930
01:01:31,080 --> 01:01:35,040
Speaker 1: So I I advise young people all the time, don't

931
01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:39,200
Speaker 1: go to law school unless you really want to be

932
01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:42,840
Speaker 1: a lawyer and you want to practice law. Don't go

933
01:01:42,960 --> 01:01:46,120
Speaker 1: because I'm not sure what I want to do. That's

934
01:01:46,160 --> 01:01:49,960
Speaker 1: a pretty expensive ambivalence, I must say, an expensive ambivalence.

935
01:01:50,120 --> 01:01:52,960
Speaker 1: I want to go to law school. I want to

936
01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:55,760
Speaker 1: go to a very good law school, and I want

937
01:01:55,760 --> 01:02:00,280
Speaker 1: to do very well at law school. Otherwise, good luck.

938
01:02:00,520 --> 01:02:03,360
Speaker 1: It's a very competitive world out there, and you better

939
01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:06,160
Speaker 1: think twice the stats. And these are old already, But

940
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:11,520
Speaker 1: seven years after graduation, law school gradutions aren't practicing. I

941
01:02:11,560 --> 01:02:13,840
Speaker 1: don't know if that's changed in the past twenty years,

942
01:02:13,920 --> 01:02:17,960
Speaker 1: but yeah, it could could very well. They just aren't

943
01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:20,200
Speaker 1: that many legal jobs out there. And wait till we

944
01:02:20,240 --> 01:02:22,200
Speaker 1: start out sourcing more and more of it to India.

945
01:02:22,240 --> 01:02:24,520
Speaker 1: Well that's right. And now you go online and you

946
01:02:24,600 --> 01:02:26,920
Speaker 1: see legal dot Com and Zoom and all of this

947
01:02:27,120 --> 01:02:29,840
Speaker 1: and legal Zoom and we can give you a will

948
01:02:30,080 --> 01:02:32,720
Speaker 1: and we can do a simple divorce and blah blah,

949
01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:34,920
Speaker 1: it won't cost you very much. And it's all online.

950
01:02:35,120 --> 01:02:38,320
Speaker 1: And I mean the world has changed software, software is

951
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:41,160
Speaker 1: changing that. So what do you see as the next

952
01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:45,400
Speaker 1: major shifts in that profession? Well, I don't know. I

953
01:02:45,520 --> 01:02:49,000
Speaker 1: mean I do think there's a trend that three years

954
01:02:49,080 --> 01:02:51,880
Speaker 1: of law school, the third year should be more clinical,

955
01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:56,880
Speaker 1: actual experience out in the field, practicing at the d

956
01:02:57,040 --> 01:03:00,400
Speaker 1: a's office, a legal aid, doing some me the Asian

957
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:03,080
Speaker 1: work as a student, but getting out there and getting

958
01:03:03,200 --> 01:03:07,840
Speaker 1: some real world experience. There may be a trend towards

959
01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:11,120
Speaker 1: making three years of law school two years. Now. There

960
01:03:11,160 --> 01:03:14,720
Speaker 1: are some law schools now like Brooklyn here dean Nick Aller,

961
01:03:15,200 --> 01:03:20,160
Speaker 1: very very um creative guy who's jamming three years of

962
01:03:20,280 --> 01:03:23,840
Speaker 1: law school credit into two years and inviting students who

963
01:03:23,840 --> 01:03:25,439
Speaker 1: want to get out of law school and two years

964
01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:27,480
Speaker 1: to work hard, take the same number of credits, but

965
01:03:27,600 --> 01:03:30,919
Speaker 1: get out earlier, stop working. So we'll watch and see

966
01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:34,960
Speaker 1: how this develops over the next two years. Quite fascinating. So, um,

967
01:03:35,640 --> 01:03:38,360
Speaker 1: what advice would you give to a millennial or someone

968
01:03:38,560 --> 01:03:41,440
Speaker 1: just getting out of school today at the beginning of

969
01:03:41,520 --> 01:03:44,760
Speaker 1: their career, and I mean law school graduates, college graduates,

970
01:03:45,120 --> 01:03:47,919
Speaker 1: what advice would you give to kids like that? Look,

971
01:03:49,240 --> 01:03:54,240
Speaker 1: get yourself a job that you really enjoy, enjoy getting

972
01:03:54,320 --> 01:03:57,120
Speaker 1: up on Monday morning and going to work. That's your

973
01:03:57,280 --> 01:04:01,280
Speaker 1: Yet you're that's the test, smile post. If you hate Mondays,

974
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:04,640
Speaker 1: you're doing the wrong right and don't worry too much

975
01:04:05,360 --> 01:04:07,760
Speaker 1: about what you're going to be doing. Three years, four years,

976
01:04:07,840 --> 01:04:11,320
Speaker 1: five years, five years ago, Barry Ridholts didn't see himself

977
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:14,440
Speaker 1: doing this fabulous show. I actually did, but that's a

978
01:04:14,480 --> 01:04:17,640
Speaker 1: whole different story. But for the most but it wasn't real.

979
01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:22,720
Speaker 1: It was aspirational and actually it wasn't this show. Five

980
01:04:22,840 --> 01:04:26,120
Speaker 1: years ago, I was doing television and radio, but not

981
01:04:26,520 --> 01:04:30,200
Speaker 1: my own show. I always thought, Hey, I'm I'm a guest,

982
01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:31,840
Speaker 1: I'm not a host. What the heck do I know

983
01:04:31,920 --> 01:04:35,600
Speaker 1: about hosting a radio show? So actually, you're you're right.

984
01:04:35,680 --> 01:04:40,760
Speaker 1: I had no idea this, you know, in my day job,

985
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:43,360
Speaker 1: so we run an asset management shop and we're always

986
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:46,360
Speaker 1: talking to people about don't think about the day to

987
01:04:46,440 --> 01:04:49,200
Speaker 1: day noise in the market. Think about when you're gonna

988
01:04:49,240 --> 01:04:52,120
Speaker 1: retire in twenty or thirty years, what do you need

989
01:04:52,240 --> 01:04:55,040
Speaker 1: to live on? What sort of we have to walk

990
01:04:55,120 --> 01:04:57,600
Speaker 1: people through and their software that helps us do this,

991
01:04:58,000 --> 01:05:01,960
Speaker 1: but we walk through people through prog actions ten, twenty

992
01:05:02,080 --> 01:05:06,080
Speaker 1: thirty years out, and you're saying, don't worry so much

993
01:05:06,120 --> 01:05:08,360
Speaker 1: about forty years from now. You don't know what next

994
01:05:08,440 --> 01:05:10,880
Speaker 1: year is gonna break. Live in the moment a little more,

995
01:05:10,960 --> 01:05:13,560
Speaker 1: enjoy what you have today. And boy, have I seen

996
01:05:13,720 --> 01:05:17,160
Speaker 1: that in my work. For sure? People went to work

997
01:05:17,360 --> 01:05:22,760
Speaker 1: on nine eleven. They never perfunctory goodbyes to husbands and

998
01:05:22,880 --> 01:05:25,200
Speaker 1: wives and brothers and sisters. I'll meet you for dinner,

999
01:05:25,240 --> 01:05:30,040
Speaker 1: I'll beach, I'll be home earlier. There never saw him again,

1000
01:05:30,680 --> 01:05:36,720
Speaker 1: incinerated dust, and um, you know, you know, my wife

1001
01:05:36,760 --> 01:05:38,480
Speaker 1: and I have a routine every time we fly. I

1002
01:05:38,600 --> 01:05:42,040
Speaker 1: fly and we go through the same process of Hey,

1003
01:05:42,120 --> 01:05:44,280
Speaker 1: I'm in C three B. They're shutting the cabin door.

1004
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:47,080
Speaker 1: I love you, talk to you later, call me as

1005
01:05:47,120 --> 01:05:49,680
Speaker 1: soon as you're down, and so all right, we'll landed

1006
01:05:49,720 --> 01:05:55,000
Speaker 1: in Miami, landed in because you And that's only since

1007
01:05:55,120 --> 01:05:59,439
Speaker 1: nine eleven that routine developed, because you never know when

1008
01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:02,280
Speaker 1: a flight is your last flight. You could write a

1009
01:06:02,360 --> 01:06:07,800
Speaker 1: book other people could as well, on how nine eleven, thirteen, fourteen,

1010
01:06:07,920 --> 01:06:11,760
Speaker 1: fifteen years ago has influenced the way we live today,

1011
01:06:12,160 --> 01:06:15,880
Speaker 1: the way we think, the way we act. I would

1012
01:06:15,920 --> 01:06:19,520
Speaker 1: have thought after nine eleven, that over a relatively brief

1013
01:06:19,640 --> 01:06:23,120
Speaker 1: period of time, nine eleven would be history, and that

1014
01:06:23,240 --> 01:06:27,840
Speaker 1: the American people wouldn't stand for these lines at airports

1015
01:06:27,960 --> 01:06:32,479
Speaker 1: going through. It turns out the American people, I think,

1016
01:06:33,160 --> 01:06:37,320
Speaker 1: have made um airports security a regular fixture of their lives.

1017
01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:41,640
Speaker 1: They expected, they don't want it modified. And I'm surprised

1018
01:06:41,680 --> 01:06:44,480
Speaker 1: at that. You know, the American people usually are very forgetful,

1019
01:06:45,320 --> 01:06:48,240
Speaker 1: but on something like nine eleven, the impacts lasted much

1020
01:06:48,320 --> 01:06:51,200
Speaker 1: longer than I thought, to say the least. And and

1021
01:06:51,360 --> 01:06:53,720
Speaker 1: my final question, because I promised to get you out

1022
01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:56,760
Speaker 1: of here at five thirty, what do you know today

1023
01:06:57,240 --> 01:07:00,120
Speaker 1: about your practice that you wish you knew forty years

1024
01:07:00,120 --> 01:07:04,040
Speaker 1: ago when you began. Oh, I don't know about that.

1025
01:07:04,160 --> 01:07:07,280
Speaker 1: That's a very interesting question. I Um. What I know

1026
01:07:07,520 --> 01:07:10,600
Speaker 1: today is more than forty years ago. Is that you

1027
01:07:10,880 --> 01:07:14,880
Speaker 1: build a sense of trust and credibility on the pot

1028
01:07:14,960 --> 01:07:19,280
Speaker 1: of people, not by marketing and not by branding and

1029
01:07:19,440 --> 01:07:26,560
Speaker 1: not by advertising, by doing and experience. I'm a firm

1030
01:07:26,640 --> 01:07:29,880
Speaker 1: believer that talent will out and that if you're a

1031
01:07:29,920 --> 01:07:32,640
Speaker 1: good lawyer, or a good doctor, or a good interviewer.

1032
01:07:32,840 --> 01:07:37,680
Speaker 1: On Bloomberg TV, a Bloomberg Radio, a Bloomberg podcast, that

1033
01:07:39,280 --> 01:07:44,200
Speaker 1: it generates itself. It it provides you not only a

1034
01:07:44,280 --> 01:07:47,480
Speaker 1: sense of satisfaction, it does me in my practice, but

1035
01:07:47,680 --> 01:07:51,240
Speaker 1: that don't worry too much about tomorrow or the next day. Um,

1036
01:07:51,440 --> 01:07:54,840
Speaker 1: your experience and your credibility enhances tomorrow and the next day.

1037
01:07:55,200 --> 01:07:59,120
Speaker 1: It'll worry about the substance. The branding will take care of.

1038
01:07:59,240 --> 01:08:02,600
Speaker 1: That's exactly right. Certainly in your case, that's the case. Please,

1039
01:08:03,560 --> 01:08:05,840
Speaker 1: can I if I can call you can At this point,

1040
01:08:05,880 --> 01:08:08,280
Speaker 1: after an hour and a half, I can't begin to

1041
01:08:08,400 --> 01:08:13,760
Speaker 1: thank you enough for this. This has been absolutely delightful. I've,

1042
01:08:13,920 --> 01:08:16,800
Speaker 1: like I said earlier, I followed your course of your

1043
01:08:16,880 --> 01:08:21,280
Speaker 1: career as pretty much everyone in America has. And um,

1044
01:08:21,760 --> 01:08:23,640
Speaker 1: I hope we asked you some questions that we're a

1045
01:08:23,640 --> 01:08:26,559
Speaker 1: little different than you used to and I hope, I hope,

1046
01:08:26,720 --> 01:08:29,000
Speaker 1: I know I've learned a lot of fascinating things about

1047
01:08:29,040 --> 01:08:31,560
Speaker 1: you have And let me tell you you have a

1048
01:08:31,720 --> 01:08:35,920
Speaker 1: very civilized approach to this because your show and the

1049
01:08:36,000 --> 01:08:38,760
Speaker 1: reason I was attracted to it, it's not a six

1050
01:08:38,840 --> 01:08:42,320
Speaker 1: minute sound bite, it's not eight minutes. How many quick

1051
01:08:42,400 --> 01:08:45,320
Speaker 1: points can you make? You flesh it out? You give

1052
01:08:45,360 --> 01:08:48,960
Speaker 1: everybody the opportunity. You get into a dialogue and it's

1053
01:08:49,120 --> 01:08:52,280
Speaker 1: very substantive, and I think you're performing a valuable public service.

1054
01:08:52,360 --> 01:08:55,559
Speaker 1: So thank you. Well, well on behalf of the American public.

1055
01:08:55,680 --> 01:08:59,240
Speaker 1: Let me say thank you for your service. Um, we've

1056
01:08:59,280 --> 01:09:03,400
Speaker 1: been speaking with Special Master Ken Feinberg. Uh. What's the

1057
01:09:03,520 --> 01:09:06,240
Speaker 1: name of your firm? Ken? The the law You're ready

1058
01:09:06,280 --> 01:09:09,799
Speaker 1: for this, The Law Offices of Kenneth A. Feinberg. Alright,

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Speaker 1: there you go that that's uh, the Law Offices of

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01:09:12,840 --> 01:09:17,360
Speaker 1: Kenneth R. Feinberg. I wanna thank my recording engineer, Reggie,

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Speaker 1: my producer, uh, Charles Volmer, and my head of research, h.

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Speaker 1: Michael bat Nick. Be sure and check out all of

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Speaker 1: our other podcasts. Just look up an Inch or down

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01:09:27,640 --> 01:09:32,280
Speaker 1: an Inch on Apple iTunes. You've been listening to Masters

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01:09:32,320 --> 01:09:34,160
Speaker 1: in Business on Bloomberg Radio.