Speaker 1: You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: I'm Hillary Clinton and this is You and Me Both. Today,
Speaker 1: I'm talking to people with firsthand experience doing hard things.
Speaker 1: And you know what, maybe the hardest thing that any
Speaker 1: of us has to do is being true to ourselves.
Speaker 1: People tell you that, but boy, when it comes down
Speaker 1: to it, making decisions about who you are, how you
Speaker 1: think about your life, what you want to stand up for,
Speaker 1: these are really hard decisions. And I thought it would
Speaker 1: be great to talk to a couple of people who
Speaker 1: have lived through that. I'll be talking with one of
Speaker 1: my favorite couples, Abby Wombach and Glennon Doyle and wait
Speaker 1: till you hear their story. It's so multidimensional, it's got
Speaker 1: so many hard things in it, and I just love
Speaker 1: hearing from both of them. But first, I'm talking to
Speaker 1: Bobby Burke. You may know him as the interior design
Speaker 1: expert on the Netflix series queer Ie, and if you've
Speaker 1: ever watched the show, you know Bobby can do hard
Speaker 1: things because in a matter of days, he transforms important
Speaker 1: spaces in people's lives into places that are both beautiful
Speaker 1: and functional. But what you may not know is that
Speaker 1: long before queer. I Bobby transformed his own life. I'm
Speaker 1: so excited to be welcoming you to the show, Bobby.
Speaker 1: And first of all, how are you doing? Where are
Speaker 1: you that we're still in the I hope tail end,
Speaker 1: but still in the pandemic. I'm actually home in l A.
Speaker 1: You know, people ask if my life has changed a
Speaker 1: lot during the pandemic, and obviously it has because I'm
Speaker 1: traveling wait less for work. But normally when I'm home, like,
Speaker 1: I don't weave the house. I'm like, what, I'm home,
Speaker 1: It's it's pretty much the same for me. I don't
Speaker 1: go out much. Well, you are well acquainted with doing
Speaker 1: hard things. You had to become an expert on that
Speaker 1: early on. You left home at a very young age,
Speaker 1: I think, right, can you describe what led you to
Speaker 1: make that really hard decision. I mean, there were a
Speaker 1: lot of reasons. Um. The main reason though, was knowing
Speaker 1: that I was gay, knowing that coming out in my home,
Speaker 1: coming out in this very small religious community that I
Speaker 1: was a part of, wasn't an option. But I also
Speaker 1: knew that staying in the closet and wearing that mask
Speaker 1: every single day of not one person in the world
Speaker 1: knowing who I was, it was very lonely. So was
Speaker 1: either come out and risk somebody else to be frank
Speaker 1: probably killing me. You know. Somebody came out in my
Speaker 1: high school and some guys ran him off the road
Speaker 1: one night. So for me, it was come out at
Speaker 1: home and Lord knows what I go through, or stay
Speaker 1: in the closet and you know, think about doing bad
Speaker 1: things to myself, you know. And I think that's why
Speaker 1: there's such a high rate of suicide and the LGBTQ
Speaker 1: youth in America is because you are programmed to believe
Speaker 1: your entire life that you are something bad. And then finally,
Speaker 1: one day at fifteen, you know, through meeting some people
Speaker 1: online who helped me accept who I was and that
Speaker 1: I wasn't a bad person, I decided to leave Um.
Speaker 1: It was a catalyst. My my parents and I really
Speaker 1: were getting along at that time. You know, I was.
Speaker 1: I was an angry team, which happens when you put
Speaker 1: on that mask every single day and you pretend to
Speaker 1: be somebody else that society tells you that you should be.
Speaker 1: So I got an argue with my parents one night,
Speaker 1: and their line was always, if you don't like our rules,
Speaker 1: there at the door, and so that night I took
Speaker 1: the door and I never went back. And where did
Speaker 1: you go that night? I I You know, I landed
Speaker 1: on a friend sofa, which I stayed on for a
Speaker 1: few months. And then I ended up in Springfield, Missouri, UM,
Speaker 1: the big city of two people. Oh I've been there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm sure you have. You're from not too far from there,
Speaker 1: that's right. So I ended up there. I enrolled myself
Speaker 1: in high school, but I quickly realized that I was
Speaker 1: not able to pay the bills and put a roof
Speaker 1: over my head and stay in school. So I actually
Speaker 1: dropped out of school at sixteen, and I started selling
Speaker 1: long distance at m C I. So you might have
Speaker 1: gotten a call from me back then to try to
Speaker 1: switch your long distance service. Well, I can't remember whether
Speaker 1: I did or not. You know, you found your way
Speaker 1: finally to New York, right, you know, if you can
Speaker 1: make it there, you can make it anywhere. It's funny
Speaker 1: you should say that, because then fast forward. You know,
Speaker 1: I moved to New York with a hundred bucks in
Speaker 1: a suitcase, and I built my own brand, my own company,
Speaker 1: and my own retail stores. And I remember I was
Speaker 1: on my way to the airport and a car service.
Speaker 1: And you know again that that's a huge thing for
Speaker 1: me back then, because when I first moved to New York,
Speaker 1: I had to walk around the city to look for
Speaker 1: a job because I couldn't eat them for the subway.
Speaker 1: So I was in a car on my way to
Speaker 1: the airport to fly to l A for the opening
Speaker 1: of my Los Angeles store, and Alicia Keys came on
Speaker 1: that New York song and I just start bawling in
Speaker 1: the car, and I just think of the song and
Speaker 1: the poor drivers, like, oh my god, you know what's
Speaker 1: going on with this guy. But it was just such
Speaker 1: a moment for me to hear that song and realize,
Speaker 1: you know, if you can make it in New York,
Speaker 1: you can make it anywhere. That story and not that
Speaker 1: you know you've got it to go to New York
Speaker 1: to make it anywhere, but it definitely making it New
Speaker 1: York makes it a little easier other places. Well, did
Speaker 1: you ever reconcile with your family? Um? A few years
Speaker 1: after I left, my parents called me and they're like,
Speaker 1: you know, we're sorry, We're sorry, we were bad parents,
Speaker 1: were sorry, we didn't know how to deal with you. Um,
Speaker 1: And we reconciled and now we're very very close. And
Speaker 1: my parents have come such a long way. You know,
Speaker 1: my parents have come from being very anti it's okay,
Speaker 1: and homophobic. So now, like my dad, anytime I'm on
Speaker 1: the phone with with FaceTime, my husband's name is Dewey.
Speaker 1: My dad called him do Do and he's like, where's do?
Speaker 1: Do you know? He does? He loves my husband, I
Speaker 1: think almost more than me. They've come so far both
Speaker 1: you know, religiously and politically. Um. You know, they're in
Speaker 1: a very very red state and I know unfortunately who
Speaker 1: they voted for back in But a phone call a
Speaker 1: few weeks ago, my eighty year old cowboy dad said,
Speaker 1: I want you to know I didn't vote for him,
Speaker 1: just for you, just you, I didn't vote for him.
Speaker 1: He's like, I didn't vote for the other guy either,
Speaker 1: but I didn't vote for him. And I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: you know what that is a start. You know a
Speaker 1: lot of people say you have the hardest job on Queer. I.
Speaker 1: You know, you have to go into people's homes, you
Speaker 1: have to completely gut and redo an incredibly short time. Well,
Speaker 1: other members of the Fab five or you know, giving haircuts, Um,
Speaker 1: do you get fair to say that, know, what you
Speaker 1: have to do is the hardest of the jobs. And
Speaker 1: have you ever felt totally overwhelmed by what you're facing?
Speaker 1: You know, I, I might have the most time consuming
Speaker 1: job on the show, but I wouldn't say it's the
Speaker 1: hardest job. And I knew what I was getting into
Speaker 1: going into it. You know, I I have a design business.
Speaker 1: This is actually what I do for a living, So
Speaker 1: I knew it wasn't gonna be easy. I knew it
Speaker 1: was going to be the most time consuming and I'd
Speaker 1: be working, you know, quote unquote physically working more than them,
Speaker 1: but every single one of us. If we didn't do
Speaker 1: what we did, the show wouldn't be what it was.
Speaker 1: And you know, often I would say Karamo's job is
Speaker 1: the hardest. He's the one that really has to crack
Speaker 1: them emotionally when these people have up walls. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's the reason why they're on this show, is where
Speaker 1: you're to help them emotionally, Like I'm just using a
Speaker 1: tear design to trick them into opening up about stuff.
Speaker 1: You know, his his sometimes is the real I would
Speaker 1: say hardest. Have you always had an eye for design?
Speaker 1: Is that something that you knew about yourself as as
Speaker 1: a child or a young man, you know. When I
Speaker 1: was little, I still remember, I don't know if you
Speaker 1: remember Ben Franklin's. I don't know if you had those
Speaker 1: in Arkansas. We did. We would go into Ben Franklin
Speaker 1: all the time because my mom was a big sewer
Speaker 1: and she made a lot of our clothes, and she
Speaker 1: even made I don't know if you remember back in
Speaker 1: the day with cabbage Patch kids were so popular, but
Speaker 1: we couldn't afford a real cabbage Patch kids. So you
Speaker 1: could buy and Ben Franklin you could buy the heads
Speaker 1: and then my mom would make the bodies. And so
Speaker 1: we were always in Ben Franklin and she was buying
Speaker 1: fabric to make his clothes. And I remember I would
Speaker 1: go through there and then in the decor section and
Speaker 1: I would always love that. And I was probably five
Speaker 1: years old the first time that I wanted to redo
Speaker 1: my room. I found a poster in Ben Franklin and
Speaker 1: it was this dinosaur poster kind of cartoon is Trying.
Speaker 1: And I talked to my mom and say getting that.
Speaker 1: I think I used birthday money to buy it, and
Speaker 1: I I coordinated everything in the room from bedspreads and pillows,
Speaker 1: to curtains, to the colors in that dinosaur poster. And I,
Speaker 1: you know, growing up up in you know, it was
Speaker 1: a small farming town in Missouri, design wasn't a thing.
Speaker 1: You know, there was home interior parties that my mom
Speaker 1: would have, but it wasn't really something I thought of
Speaker 1: as a career. The d of the only designers I
Speaker 1: saw were designing women, you know on television that show,
Speaker 1: you know, Delta Burke. Uh. You know, there were no
Speaker 1: interior designers in Mount Vernon, Missouri. And it wasn't until
Speaker 1: my early teens when I walked into Target and I
Speaker 1: saw their very first design collaboration, which was with Michael Graves.
Speaker 1: And that book behind me that you can see is
Speaker 1: the and of the twentieth anniversary collection of Targets Collaborations
Speaker 1: with designers. And the reason why I bring that up
Speaker 1: is because that collaboration is what inspired me to be
Speaker 1: a designer. That collaboration was the first time I looked
Speaker 1: at a spoon and I thought, Huh, spoons aren't just utilitarian.
Speaker 1: Spoons can actually spark joy. Spoons can look cool, a
Speaker 1: toaster can look cool. And so that moment twenty two
Speaker 1: years ago now inspired me to be a designer and
Speaker 1: I'm in this book. Oh that's so touching. Such a
Speaker 1: full circle moment of that collaboration and that architect and
Speaker 1: target really going out on a limb to try to
Speaker 1: be different and democratized design is what inspired me. And
Speaker 1: then to be full circle to be able to be
Speaker 1: a part of that book was just mind blowing. It
Speaker 1: sounds like you've really thought hard about who you are,
Speaker 1: what you do, how you interact with people. And I
Speaker 1: want to just go back to the point you made
Speaker 1: earlier about how difficult the church that you were part
Speaker 1: of when you were a young boy made it for
Speaker 1: you becoming who you were, accepting who you were. You know,
Speaker 1: if God doesn't make mistakes, then you know, guess what.
Speaker 1: God doesn't make mistakes, and it shouldn't be you know,
Speaker 1: conditioned by somebody, that's right, So you know, one of
Speaker 1: the hardest things you had to do, I've read, is
Speaker 1: to you know, navigate your relationship often challenging, sometimes hurtful
Speaker 1: to religion. And in the course of your work, though
Speaker 1: I've noticed on Queer I you found yourself working with
Speaker 1: deeply religious people and even redesigning churches so how did
Speaker 1: you come to do that and what did it make
Speaker 1: you feel as you went through that. You know, the
Speaker 1: first episode that we did in a church was Mama Tammy,
Speaker 1: and that episode was sprung on us the week before,
Speaker 1: and normally we know what's going on a few weeks out,
Speaker 1: but there was somebody who was supposed to be in
Speaker 1: that episode and they had a health emergency, and so
Speaker 1: our executive producers had to very quickly try to recast,
Speaker 1: and Mama Tammy got cast, and I mean, I'm so
Speaker 1: glad she did. But I had told Netflix because I
Speaker 1: had total executive producers in the very beginning, when we
Speaker 1: had our very first lunch after I got casts, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'll do anything you guys want. I'll go
Speaker 1: into any situation. My one non negotiable is do not
Speaker 1: ask me to go into a church. And they did
Speaker 1: very good of steering clear of religion until this last episode.
Speaker 1: And I was told you're gonna be redoing a community center,
Speaker 1: and my you know, design producer leans over and he's like,
Speaker 1: don't believe it. It's a church. It's not a community center.
Speaker 1: You know. Producers were then like, yeah, you know, it's
Speaker 1: a community center. Next to a church, and I'm like, girl,
Speaker 1: I grew up in a church. I know that that's
Speaker 1: just the fellowship hall. Don't try to tell me it's
Speaker 1: a community center. So I refused to do the episode.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, I I told you guys, this was
Speaker 1: my one non negotiable. I have been through an emotional
Speaker 1: roller coaster doing the show the last year, and I
Speaker 1: know what I need to stay no to for my
Speaker 1: own mental health. I'm like, this is going to break me.
Speaker 1: And you know, there was a lot of back and forth,
Speaker 1: and I got called by one of the guys, Joel
Speaker 1: at the at Scout Productions, the creators of the show,
Speaker 1: and he went through a lot of the same emotional
Speaker 1: trauma that I went through in a church, you know,
Speaker 1: growing up your entire life being taught to hate yourself,
Speaker 1: being taught to know that when you die you're gonna
Speaker 1: burn in hell, and begging and pleading for God to
Speaker 1: change you, but he's not, and so you just you
Speaker 1: hate yourself and you hate yourself, and to be honest,
Speaker 1: you never get over that. You can come to terms
Speaker 1: with it a bit, but you never get over it.
Speaker 1: And so he called me and he's like, I get it.
Speaker 1: You know, I fully understand why you would never want
Speaker 1: to walk into that church, why you would never want
Speaker 1: to help the people who damaged you, who are probably
Speaker 1: damaging kids in their church right now. But that is
Speaker 1: exactly why you need to do it. You need to
Speaker 1: do it for all the little Bobbies and the little
Speaker 1: Joels still sitting in churches being taught to hate themselves.
Speaker 1: And so reluctantly I did it. And I don't know
Speaker 1: if you've seen that episode, but in the beginning of
Speaker 1: the episode, you know, the guy, the construction guy, was like, oh,
Speaker 1: come on into the church. I want to show you
Speaker 1: all the other boys went in and I refused. And
Speaker 1: it wasn't in a dramatic way. It was just like
Speaker 1: I stood outside the front door and I'm like, I'm good,
Speaker 1: thank you, and he was like, well, no, you know,
Speaker 1: come on in. I was like, I'm good, thank you.
Speaker 1: And to be honest, I I came under some some
Speaker 1: angry flak from some some people high ups not at
Speaker 1: Netflix that were quite angry with me for offensively not
Speaker 1: walking in that church. And at the end of the
Speaker 1: day I was so and at the end of the
Speaker 1: day they were glad. Actually I didn't as well, because
Speaker 1: it it really proved a point to people, and it
Speaker 1: showed that you can without anger and without strife and fighting,
Speaker 1: just stay true to yourself and know the things that
Speaker 1: will break you and your mental health. And I think
Speaker 1: it showed a lot of people that it is okay
Speaker 1: to have a different point of view, but to coexist.
Speaker 1: It's okay. You know what, I'm gonna go in and
Speaker 1: I'm gonna help this church, but I'm going to know
Speaker 1: where the line is for me, you know. And at
Speaker 1: the end of the day, the amount of d m
Speaker 1: s and emails and letters that I have received from
Speaker 1: people and pastors, pastors who have messaged me and have
Speaker 1: said my entire life in church, I grew up being
Speaker 1: taught and believing that gays weren't abomination, that you were evil,
Speaker 1: that you chose to be gay, And I, in turn,
Speaker 1: have preached that same hate in my church. And I
Speaker 1: am now devastated with myself for the damage that I
Speaker 1: have done two kids. And I will never again preach
Speaker 1: that in my church again. You know, it was, honestly,
Speaker 1: it was emotional trauma doing that. And you know, because
Speaker 1: you were so honest in the beginning, you know, the
Speaker 1: viewer could follow not just the experience of the episode,
Speaker 1: but the arc of your you know, reactions and how
Speaker 1: you dealt with it. And isn't it the case that
Speaker 1: Mama Tammy's son is gay. Yes. So one of the
Speaker 1: reasons why Mama Tammy was chosen is because Miles had
Speaker 1: come out a few years before that and she didn't
Speaker 1: disown him, but it didn't go well. You know, he
Speaker 1: left home, he went off to school. He was also
Speaker 1: one of those kids who grew up in church every
Speaker 1: single day and when he came out, he was shunned.
Speaker 1: So one of the reasons why they were chosen is
Speaker 1: because we wanted to help Mama Tammy except Miles, and
Speaker 1: we also wanted to help Miles kind of deal with
Speaker 1: the pain that he went through of having a group
Speaker 1: of people who were supposed to love you one conditionally
Speaker 1: and you devoted your entire life to all of a
Speaker 1: sudden turn their back on you the moment they find
Speaker 1: out who you are. Um So, through a lot of
Speaker 1: talk with Loma Tammy, who is a lovely, wonderful person,
Speaker 1: she realized where she failed him, and that final scene
Speaker 1: of that episode where she stands up and witnesses in
Speaker 1: her church and she's like, you cannot claim to love
Speaker 1: Jesus and not love gay people. You cannot be a
Speaker 1: Christian and not love gay people. Was such an amazing moment.
Speaker 1: We're taking a quick break. Stay with us. You know,
Speaker 1: people change, they grow, they absorb, they evolve. However we
Speaker 1: want to talk about it. I certainly have, everybody I
Speaker 1: know has, But that requires an open mind and a
Speaker 1: willingness to move on from where you were. And for
Speaker 1: the church to be close to that is incredibly profoundly
Speaker 1: sad to me because the church is in many ways
Speaker 1: a place of refuge for people, but so are people's homes.
Speaker 1: And you spend your life which is really a calling, Bobby.
Speaker 1: It's a calling to help people make their homes places
Speaker 1: of security, comfort and beauty. But during this pandemic, where
Speaker 1: people have been at home so much, how have you
Speaker 1: talked to them? How have you even thought about it
Speaker 1: that you could help people kind of make their homes
Speaker 1: places they want to be after having been in them
Speaker 1: under such really difficult circumstances. I would say start with
Speaker 1: something small. Organization is the best thing. Don't worry about
Speaker 1: the sign. You don't have to stress yourself out of
Speaker 1: Oh I don't know how to place things. Just start
Speaker 1: by organizing things. Start with that junk drawer in the kitchen.
Speaker 1: We all have that drunk tour that collects everything. Go
Speaker 1: through that, get rid of the things you don't need,
Speaker 1: and that will be a sense of accomplishment and you'll realize, oh,
Speaker 1: I can do this, and then I'm going to move
Speaker 1: on to the rest of the cabinet. So no, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna move onto that hall closet, or I'm going to
Speaker 1: move on to that guest bedroom that's been the catch
Speaker 1: all of all these things that I thought I needed
Speaker 1: to hang on too. But they've been sitting in this
Speaker 1: room for an entire year and I've been home and
Speaker 1: I still haven't done anything. So you know what, it's
Speaker 1: time to donate them and let them spark joy for
Speaker 1: somebody else. So start with organizing, and organizing is going
Speaker 1: to turn into design. Organizing is designing. I love that phrase.
Speaker 1: You know your life has turned out so differently than
Speaker 1: you could have ever thought possible when you were a kid.
Speaker 1: If you could tell your fifteen year old self what
Speaker 1: his life was going to be like. And I think
Speaker 1: it's really great to hear you do that, because I
Speaker 1: think there are a lot of fifteen year old sixty
Speaker 1: seventeen year old there's a lot of people out there
Speaker 1: who will find comfort and confidence from what you have
Speaker 1: to say. I mean, my biggest advice would be, don't
Speaker 1: let anyone tell you who you are. Don't let anyone
Speaker 1: tell you what you can or cannot be. And you know,
Speaker 1: even as adults, we struggle with this. I'm sure you
Speaker 1: struggle with this. People try to find you, they try
Speaker 1: to tell you who you are, and they're just random strangers.
Speaker 1: Even so, my advice for fifteen year olds or fifty
Speaker 1: year olds or ninety year olds is, don't let anyone
Speaker 1: tell you who you are. Don't let anyone define you.
Speaker 1: Only you can define who you are, and don't let
Speaker 1: anyone else's definition of who you are hold you back
Speaker 1: to your greatest potential. Oh I love that. And it's
Speaker 1: a lifelong journey and process, isn't it. I still struggle
Speaker 1: with it. Everybody does well, Bobby Burke, I'm thrilled to
Speaker 1: talk with you. You are everything that I thought you
Speaker 1: would be, and I am so grateful that you're willing
Speaker 1: to tell your story because it's going to land on
Speaker 1: different ears in different ways. And there are still so
Speaker 1: many people who need to hear that you can do
Speaker 1: hard things and you can make a life that you're
Speaker 1: proud of and that you want to share with the
Speaker 1: rest of us. So thank you so very much, thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for having me Madam Secretary, and
Speaker 1: this has been an honor. If you'd like to learn
Speaker 1: more about Bobby's design company, go to Bobby Burke dot com.
Speaker 1: And if you've enjoyed today's conversation with Bobby, you can
Speaker 1: also check out my interview with Tan France, another member
Speaker 1: of the Fab Five, and that interview is from season
Speaker 1: one of this podcast, in our episode on the American Dreams,
Speaker 1: So go give it a listen. I could not have
Speaker 1: been more excited to talk with two people that I
Speaker 1: knew of separately, but boy, they are a true powerhouse together.
Speaker 1: And I think you'll understand why I say that after
Speaker 1: you listen to this conversation with Abby Wamback and Glenn
Speaker 1: and Doyle. I first learned about Abby Wamback in connection
Speaker 1: with women's soccer. You know, a hundred years ago, when
Speaker 1: I was in junior high school, I actually played soccer
Speaker 1: and it wasn't very common. I had a physical education
Speaker 1: teacher who loved the game. Not very many people even
Speaker 1: knew about it, but I always was interested in soccer.
Speaker 1: You know, from that experience going forward, and you know,
Speaker 1: Abby's a two time Olympic gold medalists. She has the
Speaker 1: most amazing record with the Women's World Cup, winning it
Speaker 1: for the USA. In she wrote a fantastic memoir called
Speaker 1: Forward and another book called Wolfpack, How to come together
Speaker 1: on leash our power and Change the Game. So I
Speaker 1: have followed her from afar, both based on her athletic
Speaker 1: prowess and what she has to say which is really
Speaker 1: worth hearing. I first encountered Glennan when she was gaining
Speaker 1: a lot of attention as a blogger about being a
Speaker 1: wife and a mom and a Christian, and she amassed
Speaker 1: this very large following because she was so willing to
Speaker 1: be vulnerable and talking about all the challenges in her
Speaker 1: own life. Some listeners know that she has authored to
Speaker 1: New York Times bestsellers, Love Warrior and her latest book
Speaker 1: on Tame Aimed, and her rallying cry is we can
Speaker 1: do hard things. But honestly, I had no idea until
Speaker 1: maybe the last year or two that Glennon Doyle and
Speaker 1: Abby Lombach had not just gotten together but gotten married,
Speaker 1: and I went, lo, I have to talk to them.
Speaker 1: I cannot tell you how excited I have to talk
Speaker 1: to you both. So when I came across and I
Speaker 1: don't even remember how I stumbled into this, because it
Speaker 1: was before I read Untamed, of course, and I realized
Speaker 1: you two had gotten together and gotten married. I was like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, the universe, the stars, the Cosmo Sissi
Speaker 1: in alignment, how did this happen? And so Glenn and
Speaker 1: you've written about it, I want you to start, and
Speaker 1: then I want Abby to give us her view of it. Okay,
Speaker 1: So we were at a book event. Okay, it was
Speaker 1: a librarians mentioned super sexy, super sexy library. Um. I
Speaker 1: was at a table full of writers and we were
Speaker 1: trying to make small talk with each other, which is
Speaker 1: just a nightmare. And the woman I was talking to,
Speaker 1: she was a children's book book writer, and I noticed
Speaker 1: that she stopped talking and she looked turned towards the door,
Speaker 1: and so all of a sudden, the room got quiet.
Speaker 1: So I turned towards the door and there was this
Speaker 1: woman standing in the doorway, and she was like thirty
Speaker 1: ft tall and had this like shaved side head and
Speaker 1: platinum hair, and she's wearing this trench coat. And she
Speaker 1: just had this presence that was very cool but also
Speaker 1: very warm, and she looked like a man and a
Speaker 1: woman and beyond both and and and hello me. This
Speaker 1: was like, this is a table full of writers like
Speaker 1: we the level of cool that had entered the room,
Speaker 1: we didn't understand. It was like the mocking Jay had
Speaker 1: landed at a nerdy book part right. And I it
Speaker 1: is well known in my family that my spiritual gift
Speaker 1: is whatever awkwardness is in a room, I am able
Speaker 1: always to make it more awkward. Okay, that's what I
Speaker 1: do for the world. And so something happened to me
Speaker 1: in that moment I looked at her. I understood that
Speaker 1: I was having some kind of reunion. It didn't feel
Speaker 1: like I was meeting her. It felt like I was
Speaker 1: reuniting with her. But then, unfortunately I lost control of
Speaker 1: my body, and so I stood up out of my
Speaker 1: chair and threw my arms open toward her at the door. Okay,
Speaker 1: so I don't know this is happening until I come
Speaker 1: to consciousness and realize that everyone's now staring at me.
Speaker 1: So now I have to figure out how I'm going
Speaker 1: to get from this position back to my chair. Did
Speaker 1: you know who she was? Um? I knew she was.
Speaker 1: I'm not a fan of the sports, but I did
Speaker 1: understand something about World Cups, something about the soccer um,
Speaker 1: and so I I bowed. This is a family joke now,
Speaker 1: and people do it all the time when someone walks
Speaker 1: into a room, because I thought maybe I can just
Speaker 1: play it off like I'm a weird writer who bows
Speaker 1: when people walk appropriate, right, right, So I bound and
Speaker 1: sat down. That was the moment we saw each other
Speaker 1: for the first time. I'm sure your moment was just
Speaker 1: as magical. It was a little different. Oh good, I
Speaker 1: want to hear the Abbey version of this. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: I walk into the room and for whatever reason, I'm
Speaker 1: like running a little late, which is so unlike me.
Speaker 1: And I get into the room and they're they're all
Speaker 1: they're sitting down eating dinner, and this person across the
Speaker 1: way stands up and puts her arms stretched out, And
Speaker 1: so now I'm in the awkward position that I have
Speaker 1: to go unite with her because she has body language
Speaker 1: told me we are going to embrace, So I have
Speaker 1: to like side stuff because you know, this is a
Speaker 1: small room and the chairs are kind of close to
Speaker 1: the wall, so I've got a sidestep all the way
Speaker 1: around to Glennon and I finally get to her, and
Speaker 1: at this point she has since sat back down and
Speaker 1: she just says, can I hug you? I was like, well,
Speaker 1: like that was even an option. You have energetically forced
Speaker 1: me around this whole table, So we hug. And I
Speaker 1: had done a little bit of research on all the
Speaker 1: authors that would be there, and she was the one
Speaker 1: author that I was like, Oh, I want to talk
Speaker 1: to her, okay, why you know? The Love Wayar and
Speaker 1: the premise of Love Waar was was kind of in
Speaker 1: the little research that I had, and in it it
Speaker 1: said that she was sober, and I had just recently
Speaker 1: gotten sober, like a month ago, so I was very
Speaker 1: interested and curious about how somebody does sobriety period right
Speaker 1: so um, and and that she was so fearless in
Speaker 1: telling her truth. It was something I was very big
Speaker 1: time struggling with because I hadn't actually finished the book
Speaker 1: that I was there to publicize, because there was a
Speaker 1: part of it the d u I that I got
Speaker 1: at the end of my career walking straight into my retirement.
Speaker 1: I didn't know if I wanted to include it. And
Speaker 1: she just said, you know, real people in the real
Speaker 1: world want the truth, and that is what you should
Speaker 1: give people. And I just thought, oh, that's amazing. And
Speaker 1: then she said, I also have a rap sheet as
Speaker 1: long as your arms, so I don't even worry about it.
Speaker 1: Of course, you know, you got up from the dinner
Speaker 1: and you went your separate ways. So what happened next?
Speaker 1: How did that moment, that electric moment, evolve into a
Speaker 1: marriage with three kids and a house? I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: a real all American love story. What happened? Well, it
Speaker 1: got even weirderer or not. I was in a very
Speaker 1: broken marriage to a good man. That's a tricky place
Speaker 1: to because we're supposed to be dis grateful for what
Speaker 1: we have and other people have it worse. And yeah,
Speaker 1: yeah right, So, um, I really did have to decide
Speaker 1: whether I was just gonna shut down whatever had just
Speaker 1: happened to me in that room and go back to
Speaker 1: my broken marriage, or whether I was going to be
Speaker 1: open to it and pursue it. And and and what
Speaker 1: I try to explain to Abby is it didn't feel
Speaker 1: like a love decision. At the time, it felt like,
Speaker 1: am I going to honor this self that I have
Speaker 1: just met again? Like that was buried clearly, you know,
Speaker 1: this person that announced itself in that room. Am I
Speaker 1: going to abandon her again and just go back to
Speaker 1: good enough? Or am I going to honor that? Like
Speaker 1: it kind of felt like spiritually life and death. And
Speaker 1: so what happened is that we started emailing each other.
Speaker 1: I found her email address from her assistant that was
Speaker 1: at the event, and I wrote to her, you know,
Speaker 1: just as like a good person does, just offering my
Speaker 1: best spiritual advice. You know, I just felt motive reaching
Speaker 1: out into the world. No, I just really felt like
Speaker 1: I wanted to do the right thing, And so I
Speaker 1: wrote to her, and we started writing back and forth,
Speaker 1: and we overtime fell in love through letters. We didn't
Speaker 1: see each other again in person until we had both
Speaker 1: completely dismantled our lives. I mean, well, yeah, we didn't
Speaker 1: see each other until months and months later, and when
Speaker 1: I had already sat down with Craig and told him
Speaker 1: I'm leaving I'm in love with Abby. We had talked
Speaker 1: to the children we had start and she had done
Speaker 1: the same thing. So we fell in love through letters.
Speaker 1: Oh that makes it even more romantic. But Abby, here
Speaker 1: you were. You were at the beginning of your sobriety journey.
Speaker 1: You had encountered this spirit in this you know woman
Speaker 1: at the dinner, and all of a sudden you start
Speaker 1: emailing how did you come to the realization that you
Speaker 1: you needed to continue with sobriety, but everything else in
Speaker 1: your life had to change. When you're early in your
Speaker 1: sobriety life, you're so concerned with how do we rebuild
Speaker 1: a life? And at the time, so much of my
Speaker 1: life was revolved around going out and partying, and those
Speaker 1: were the friends that I had, and I knew that
Speaker 1: I had to have a completely different experience to stay sober.
Speaker 1: And the way that Glennon and I like to define
Speaker 1: that word is just peace. So Glennon gave me the
Speaker 1: understanding that it is possible. Right so early on. She
Speaker 1: was married and I'm like, I was getting a divorce
Speaker 1: and I was like, you know what, I just want
Speaker 1: to be close to this person because she's giving me
Speaker 1: confidence in this piece that I'm in search of. And
Speaker 1: then I think that, you know, not that she was
Speaker 1: a sponsor for me in any way. Um, but I
Speaker 1: think that having people like that to help you on
Speaker 1: that sobriety journey, I know that it has completely saved
Speaker 1: my life. But at the end of the day too,
Speaker 1: when you throw love into the mix and then deciding
Speaker 1: to build a whole life together, I can't even remember
Speaker 1: the time that I wasn't sober or I didn't have you,
Speaker 1: you know, so I just I'm so grateful for so
Speaker 1: many reasons. Glennon. By that time, how long had you
Speaker 1: been sober? I guess Ober the day I found out
Speaker 1: I was pregnant with my son, Chase, And now he
Speaker 1: is eighteen, so back then it would have been fifteen years.
Speaker 1: You know. One thing that I have thought a lot about,
Speaker 1: Glennon is because you you really came to public awareness.
Speaker 1: I first became aware of you because of your writing
Speaker 1: and you're speaking, your Ted talk and all of that,
Speaker 1: and you had a really large Christian following. How has
Speaker 1: that been affected by, you know, your divorce, by your
Speaker 1: falling in love with and marrying Abby. For your very
Speaker 1: open description of what your life is like now. Yeah,
Speaker 1: one of the interesting things about when I announced online
Speaker 1: that Abby and I were going to be together the
Speaker 1: night before that happened my team. I remember someone saying, well,
Speaker 1: tomorrow's the blood bath. That's what I went to bed thinking, Oh,
Speaker 1: tomorrow's the blood bath. Right that morning, I wrote a
Speaker 1: short something. It was very important to me to tell
Speaker 1: but not to explain. I felt very I thought it
Speaker 1: was important to tell the truth but not be responsible
Speaker 1: for anyone's reaction to it, right, And so I wrote
Speaker 1: a paragraph. I put a picture of Abby and me
Speaker 1: on Facebook or Instagram or something, and then I walked away.
Speaker 1: I shut the computer and walked away. My sister, who
Speaker 1: was my protector in all things, she was going to
Speaker 1: monitor the world as she tries to do. Just fix
Speaker 1: the world for me, real quick, right, so um. A
Speaker 1: few hours later, she called me crying. My sister does
Speaker 1: not cry. She called me crying. She said, Glenn, and
Speaker 1: I need you to get on your social media. I
Speaker 1: need you to get on and I need you to
Speaker 1: read how your community, how your people are reacting to
Speaker 1: this news. And I was expecting a blood bath. And
Speaker 1: it felt like a baptism. It was so beautiful, and
Speaker 1: it wasn't just beautiful in that people who you know
Speaker 1: understood it and celebrated it. And we're super progressive. They
Speaker 1: were celebratory. Even the people who were confused as all right,
Speaker 1: who were like, um okay, love winds um like they've
Speaker 1: got that, Like they didn't have any clue, but they
Speaker 1: were trying. You know, It's just wow. You know, I
Speaker 1: have to ask both of you as you were talking
Speaker 1: about and I loved what you told Abby and what
Speaker 1: Abby just told us. You had said about real people
Speaker 1: want the truth? Why do we do at this point
Speaker 1: in our country where it does seem like a lot
Speaker 1: of real people want anything but the truth. And I've
Speaker 1: thought about the two of you in this context, because
Speaker 1: I mean, you've really been and on the forefront of
Speaker 1: making change. You know, whether you knew it or not,
Speaker 1: you have been and for that, I am certainly grateful,
Speaker 1: and you've gone through a lot. And I am just
Speaker 1: wondering if you have any thoughts about how we began
Speaker 1: reaching other people. I mean, we're not all going to agree, fine,
Speaker 1: but to help create more of a community like the
Speaker 1: community that received your truths both of you, the larger
Speaker 1: community is so divided and it's a dangerous divide. Any
Speaker 1: thoughts on that. The time that I spent with the
Speaker 1: national team, it was so special because there was this
Speaker 1: little ecosystem of women who all could agree on one thing,
Speaker 1: and that was winning. Now, we sat around a ton
Speaker 1: of meal tables for hundreds and hundreds and thousands of hours.
Speaker 1: So you sit around the table after you've eaten, and
Speaker 1: you talk and we discussed. We disagreed. There were Republicans,
Speaker 1: there were democrats, there were straight there were evangelicals, there
Speaker 1: were every kind of person. Yet we were still able
Speaker 1: to accomplish this thing at winning. And I think about
Speaker 1: this all the time because I understand that this is
Speaker 1: a super complex issue as it relates to the nation
Speaker 1: where we're at right now. But I think about this
Speaker 1: and it does give me hope. I wasn't best friends
Speaker 1: with every single one of my teammates, but I respected
Speaker 1: the hell out of every single one of those women
Speaker 1: because guess what, every single one of us, I'm like
Speaker 1: giving myself the children's cellarius. Every single one of us
Speaker 1: would show up, would sacrifice the same amount, and we
Speaker 1: would give it all because we bought into this idea
Speaker 1: not only the relentless pursuit of excellence, but to win. So, yes,
Speaker 1: we disagreed, but we were able to still function. And
Speaker 1: by the way, when you know this whole year of
Speaker 1: the team that I now am thinking based on what
Speaker 1: you just said that you know, there's another idea. There's
Speaker 1: another book in you Abby about the American team. It's
Speaker 1: not just the women who play soccer. It is all
Speaker 1: of us. And we used to think we were on
Speaker 1: the same team. I mean, even if we disagreed with
Speaker 1: each other, even if we've found each other, you know,
Speaker 1: totally ridiculous. We always thought we were on the same team.
Speaker 1: And we've had leaders recently who have divided us and said, no,
Speaker 1: you know, only one team is worth being on the team.
Speaker 1: I'm on the team. I lead the team that believes
Speaker 1: in me, which is so dangerous and destructive. But this
Speaker 1: idea of the American team, maybe we can figure out
Speaker 1: how to explain that and in effect put it out
Speaker 1: into the world again. Thank you. I will send you
Speaker 1: some royalties for this book. I will take that little
Speaker 1: nugget and I'm going to run with it. I wish
Speaker 1: you would, you know, I love to behind Glennon is
Speaker 1: her Matra. We can do hard things, and you've really
Speaker 1: seated that in the world. Glennon, how does it feel
Speaker 1: to see more and more people coming around to this
Speaker 1: idea that you first really understood when you were a
Speaker 1: third grade teacher and another teacher put that up on
Speaker 1: the wall of her classroom. Well, it's I mean, I
Speaker 1: think that the idea we can do hard things is
Speaker 1: sort of a declaration of hope, right, but it's hope
Speaker 1: based in reality. It's not like this is easy, just
Speaker 1: wake up in the morning and do it and come on. No,
Speaker 1: it's like this time. It's resonating right now so much
Speaker 1: because we're all facing the hard stuff. You know. We
Speaker 1: talk a lot about how this metaphor where it's like
Speaker 1: we're all snow globes. I had the snow globe when
Speaker 1: I was little, and I loved it, but I hated
Speaker 1: it because it was so beautiful that the snow in it,
Speaker 1: But there was this terrifying dragon at the center of it,
Speaker 1: and I thought it was so scary. So I keep
Speaker 1: it shaken up all the time so I never had
Speaker 1: to see that scary red dragon. And that reminds me
Speaker 1: of myself, right, just constantly keeping myself shaken up with
Speaker 1: whatever it is business, um, snark, shopping, food, what it
Speaker 1: used to be, boot, whatever it is, you know, so
Speaker 1: that I don't have to see the dragon at the
Speaker 1: center of things, and I think that's what you know,
Speaker 1: COVID has been this forced settling of the collective snow globe,
Speaker 1: and we are looking at the dragons of our lives
Speaker 1: and our relationships and our nation, you know, and that's hard,
Speaker 1: Like looking at the truth of things is the hardest thing.
Speaker 1: That's beginning of sobriety. It's the beginning of any healing
Speaker 1: of a relationship. I think it's it's the beginning of
Speaker 1: the possibility for hope, for healing for our nation. But
Speaker 1: we avoid that part because the truth is so scary.
Speaker 1: But the reason why it's hopeful is because you can't
Speaker 1: slay any dragon without first looking at it. Yeah, accepting it.
Speaker 1: It's there, It's in your nation, right, I'm anything we
Speaker 1: think about, you know, the racial reckoning that we've had
Speaker 1: um and that we're having, and then it's just beginning,
Speaker 1: I think. And you think about how that started sort
Speaker 1: of during COVID and the George Floyd murder, and it's like,
Speaker 1: but what was different about that time? We've been looking
Speaker 1: at this happening over and over again, but what was
Speaker 1: different is that we couldn't look away from it. We
Speaker 1: were in our homes. We didn't have anywhere to go.
Speaker 1: We couldn't just caret we couldn't shake the snow globe
Speaker 1: up again. And so I think that we can do
Speaker 1: hard things is just a way of saying, oh my god,
Speaker 1: we are seeing all of our dragons right now. Good good,
Speaker 1: We'll be right back. I want to switch gears a minute,
Speaker 1: because one of the areas that I think about when
Speaker 1: I think of you, Abby is your outspoken fight for
Speaker 1: equal pay and benefits for American women in sports. And
Speaker 1: it's a disgrace where we are across the board, but
Speaker 1: in particular in soccer. When I think about everything you
Speaker 1: gave for the sport, you know, one image that sticks
Speaker 1: in my mind is you know that qualifying World Cup
Speaker 1: game against Mexico where literally you smashed your head. Blood
Speaker 1: is gushing from your head, and instead of walking off
Speaker 1: the field and getting a substitute, you stood there and
Speaker 1: had your head stapled closed. I mean, honest to God,
Speaker 1: I think about that and I go, oh, I don't
Speaker 1: know what is the equivalent in my life. When did I,
Speaker 1: you know, go back in with my metaphoric, you know, Staples.
Speaker 1: I think about that because then I remember how you
Speaker 1: were honored as you well should have been. And as
Speaker 1: I write about you in the book of Gutsy Women
Speaker 1: that I wrote with my daughter, I think the record
Speaker 1: still is you have scored more goals in international competition
Speaker 1: than any woman or man in the history of you know,
Speaker 1: international soccer, which obviously is huge. And ESPN honored you
Speaker 1: along with Kobe Bryant and Peyton Manning, and I was
Speaker 1: thrilled that you know you were going to be given
Speaker 1: this incredible recognition, But explain how you felt at that moment,
Speaker 1: because I think listeners need to understand that behind the
Speaker 1: glory and the celebration, there was a harsh reality. Well,
Speaker 1: so I just want to circle back two things. One,
Speaker 1: God really loves Glennon, because God brought Glennon into my
Speaker 1: life after my career, so that head stabling incident would
Speaker 1: not have flown very well with her. She would have
Speaker 1: have passed out on the grounds to carry um. And
Speaker 1: then secondly, and this is so great, Christine Sinclair, a
Speaker 1: woman who plays for the team Canada, has since broken
Speaker 1: the record that I took over from Mia, and something
Speaker 1: so good needs to be shared and other women need
Speaker 1: to experience what it feels like to have worked relentlessly
Speaker 1: for decades to accrue that many goals. So I'm happy
Speaker 1: our children are like what do I say now, Like
Speaker 1: my mom is like number two in the world for
Speaker 1: at least a week. Um, But then, you know, to
Speaker 1: finish the story. In terms of Khobe and Peyton, I
Speaker 1: felt so glad that they thought of me, you know.
Speaker 1: And I remember being on that stage and I was
Speaker 1: a little bit nervous because I had some lines to
Speaker 1: say and it was nationally televised, and I nailed the lines. Hillary,
Speaker 1: you know I did. I nailed go girl. I just
Speaker 1: remember feeling on stage. I felt so grateful, right often
Speaker 1: the only emotion women are allowed. So when the lights
Speaker 1: turned off and the three of us turned to walk
Speaker 1: off stage, something else happened inside of my body. I
Speaker 1: started to get a kind of rage that I had
Speaker 1: never experienced before. A guilt, a fear, and anger, a rage.
Speaker 1: I felt sick. I felt sick to my stomach that
Speaker 1: I didn't do enough when I was in it because
Speaker 1: this was my exit right. And here's the thing, you know,
Speaker 1: Kobe and Peyton's biggest concerns at this point in their
Speaker 1: retirement was where they were going to invest their hundreds
Speaker 1: of millions of dollars that they collectively earned. And my
Speaker 1: biggest concern, and this is a true story, is how
Speaker 1: I was going to find a job to pay my mortgage,
Speaker 1: how I was going to earn any money. And in
Speaker 1: the hotel room that night, I promised myself two things.
Speaker 1: Number One, Crystal Dunn, who's a current national team player,
Speaker 1: Alex Morgan, who's a current national team player in Megan Rapino,
Speaker 1: these women would never share this experience with me. I
Speaker 1: will do whatever it takes to make sure that their
Speaker 1: experience is different. And then number two, most importantly, if
Speaker 1: this was happening to me, I understood deeply that this
Speaker 1: was happening to every woman, because on some weird level,
Speaker 1: when you get invited into certain rooms and you are
Speaker 1: given certain seats at certain tables where decisions are made,
Speaker 1: you have a sense that maybe I am not a
Speaker 1: victim to this inequality right, But that night I understood
Speaker 1: that I was. I understood that we all are. And
Speaker 1: I have dedicated since then my whole life, my mission,
Speaker 1: my purpose on this planet is to make sure that
Speaker 1: we do everything possible to fix the inequalities that are
Speaker 1: rampant through every industry. In every city and every state,
Speaker 1: in every country of this world. Women they retire with less,
Speaker 1: they have to work longer, which is just freedom. And
Speaker 1: I I believe that people deserve to be treated equally.
Speaker 1: I literally could talk to the two of you all day.
Speaker 1: So let me and with this question each of you.
Speaker 1: Hopefully in the next few months, enough of us are
Speaker 1: going to get vaccinated and we're gonna see the beginning
Speaker 1: of a return to the semblance of a normal life,
Speaker 1: whatever that means anymore. So what is each of you
Speaker 1: looking forward to? Most? And Glenn? And you've already gotten
Speaker 1: your hair done, so you can't you know, you can't
Speaker 1: say that, right. I mean, I know in the in
Speaker 1: the beginning of the pandemic it was I'll follow you
Speaker 1: on Instagram and there was lots of talk about hair.
Speaker 1: And as someone who has both talked about and Ben
Speaker 1: talked about a lot regarding hair, I think we've covered that.
Speaker 1: So what besides that, what are you both looking forward to?
Speaker 1: I mean, the most honest answer that I can think
Speaker 1: of for that is, I just desperately want to hug
Speaker 1: my mom. Oh where does she live? She lives in Virginia.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna um, I have not seen them since March,
Speaker 1: and um, you know, they haven't seen our kids, and
Speaker 1: they It's just I cannot wait to just hug my
Speaker 1: mom and hug my dad. And I hope that I
Speaker 1: don't forget that. I hope that I remember what it's
Speaker 1: like to not be able to and that I um
Speaker 1: value that more in the after Abby. What about you?
Speaker 1: This is a tough question for me to answer because
Speaker 1: I spend my life basically on the road doing speaking
Speaker 1: events and whatever it is, whatever the heck else I
Speaker 1: do for my work and to earn money. I'm a hustler. Um,
Speaker 1: this time has been so interesting, and I bet you
Speaker 1: you probably would agree Hillary that this is the first
Speaker 1: time my central nervous system has comed itself down to
Speaker 1: a ground at zero because I haven't been able to travel.
Speaker 1: And so as hard as this has been in so
Speaker 1: many ways, this has been in some ways one of
Speaker 1: the greatest gifts that I have ever been handed, and
Speaker 1: I have been I've promised myself to out of this
Speaker 1: whole situation better. Right, So, how can I be more fit?
Speaker 1: How can I get more organized? How can I And
Speaker 1: my wife helps because she starts to clean out the
Speaker 1: garage and then I have to finish the cleaning of
Speaker 1: the garage. Starting finishing. It's hard for me. But I
Speaker 1: think that having said all that, what I would say is,
Speaker 1: I'm excited to go on vacation. I'm with you, girl,
Speaker 1: I'm with you. Where do you want to go? Give
Speaker 1: any any big dreams? I mean, we live in Naples,
Speaker 1: but I want to go somewhere warm and on a
Speaker 1: beach and somebody to deliver me cold water. Maybe without
Speaker 1: the kids, no kids, kids on vacation, on dogs, no kids,
Speaker 1: no people. Okay, So DM me when you find the
Speaker 1: perfect place. Because I'm more in the go on vacation mode,
Speaker 1: I find myself obsessing over you know, vacation pictures, pictures
Speaker 1: of the most beautiful destination is a little crazy. Last
Speaker 1: January went to Mirror Val in Tucson, Arizona. It's getaway
Speaker 1: destination place and we were setting intentions for we were
Speaker 1: going to crush it. We didn't know that this would
Speaker 1: be the last vacation we ever took. Go and be
Speaker 1: with God. Folks, Amen, Mad, Sister Abbey, Hey Mad. To
Speaker 1: keep up with Abby and Glennon, follow them on social
Speaker 1: media and check out their websites. For Glennon, that's mamas
Speaker 1: Terry dot com, m O M A S T E
Speaker 1: r y dot com and you can find Abbey's website
Speaker 1: at Abbey Wampach w A M B A c h
Speaker 1: dot com. I've thought a lot about doing hard things
Speaker 1: over the last year. My constant hard thing is to
Speaker 1: uh get up and keep going every day and the
Speaker 1: mets of this pandemic, which I'm really getting tired of.
Speaker 1: My friends, you know, I want to travel again. I
Speaker 1: want to eat in a restaurant again, and I'm determined
Speaker 1: that I'm not going to do that until it's absolutely
Speaker 1: safe to get out there. But boy, it's hard. And then,
Speaker 1: of course there were really hard things like standing up
Speaker 1: to continuing racial inequity and waging an election during a
Speaker 1: pandemic and then protecting the outcome of that election. So
Speaker 1: to me, it's even more important that we try to
Speaker 1: do hard things and don't confuse the hard things like
Speaker 1: standing up to racism, standing up for democracy from things
Speaker 1: that are necessary but frankly not that hard, like putting
Speaker 1: on a mask in the middle of a pandemic. I
Speaker 1: would love to hear stories from our listeners about how
Speaker 1: you do hard things or people you know who have
Speaker 1: done hard things and if you want to share a
Speaker 1: st ory, please send an email to You and Me
Speaker 1: Both pod at gmail dot com. You and Me Both
Speaker 1: is brought to you by I Heart Radio. We're produced
Speaker 1: by Julie Subran, Kathleen Russo and Lauren Peterson, with help
Speaker 1: from Juma Aberdeen, Nicky e tour, Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman,
Speaker 1: Brianna Johnson, Nick Merrill, Rob Russo, and Lona val Moro.
Speaker 1: Our engineer is Zach McNeice and the original music is
Speaker 1: by Forrest Gray. If you like You and Me Both,
Speaker 1: spread the word, post about it on social media, send
Speaker 1: it to your friends, and make sure to hit the
Speaker 1: subscribe button so you're the first to know when a
Speaker 1: new episode drops. You can do that on I Heart Radio, app,
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Speaker 1: next week.