1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio. 2 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:10,360 Speaker 1: I'm Hillary Clinton and this is You and Me Both. Today, 3 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: I'm talking to people with firsthand experience doing hard things. 4 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: And you know what, maybe the hardest thing that any 5 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:21,600 Speaker 1: of us has to do is being true to ourselves. 6 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 1: People tell you that, but boy, when it comes down 7 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: to it, making decisions about who you are, how you 8 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: think about your life, what you want to stand up for, 9 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 1: these are really hard decisions. And I thought it would 10 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: be great to talk to a couple of people who 11 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: have lived through that. I'll be talking with one of 12 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: my favorite couples, Abby Wombach and Glennon Doyle and wait 13 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: till you hear their story. It's so multidimensional, it's got 14 00:00:56,320 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: so many hard things in it, and I just love 15 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: hearing from both of them. But first, I'm talking to 16 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: Bobby Burke. You may know him as the interior design 17 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:13,759 Speaker 1: expert on the Netflix series queer Ie, and if you've 18 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:17,320 Speaker 1: ever watched the show, you know Bobby can do hard 19 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: things because in a matter of days, he transforms important 20 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: spaces in people's lives into places that are both beautiful 21 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 1: and functional. But what you may not know is that 22 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: long before queer. I Bobby transformed his own life. I'm 23 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,759 Speaker 1: so excited to be welcoming you to the show, Bobby. 24 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: And first of all, how are you doing? Where are 25 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: you that we're still in the I hope tail end, 26 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: but still in the pandemic. I'm actually home in l A. 27 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: You know, people ask if my life has changed a 28 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: lot during the pandemic, and obviously it has because I'm 29 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: traveling wait less for work. But normally when I'm home, like, 30 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: I don't weave the house. I'm like, what, I'm home, 31 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 1: It's it's pretty much the same for me. I don't 32 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: go out much. Well, you are well acquainted with doing 33 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 1: hard things. You had to become an expert on that 34 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 1: early on. You left home at a very young age, 35 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 1: I think, right, can you describe what led you to 36 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:19,640 Speaker 1: make that really hard decision. I mean, there were a 37 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 1: lot of reasons. Um. The main reason though, was knowing 38 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: that I was gay, knowing that coming out in my home, 39 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 1: coming out in this very small religious community that I 40 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: was a part of, wasn't an option. But I also 41 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 1: knew that staying in the closet and wearing that mask 42 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: every single day of not one person in the world 43 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: knowing who I was, it was very lonely. So was 44 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:46,800 Speaker 1: either come out and risk somebody else to be frank 45 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: probably killing me. You know. Somebody came out in my 46 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 1: high school and some guys ran him off the road 47 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: one night. So for me, it was come out at 48 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:58,239 Speaker 1: home and Lord knows what I go through, or stay 49 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 1: in the closet and you know, think about doing bad 50 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: things to myself, you know. And I think that's why 51 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 1: there's such a high rate of suicide and the LGBTQ 52 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 1: youth in America is because you are programmed to believe 53 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,639 Speaker 1: your entire life that you are something bad. And then finally, 54 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 1: one day at fifteen, you know, through meeting some people 55 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,360 Speaker 1: online who helped me accept who I was and that 56 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: I wasn't a bad person, I decided to leave Um. 57 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: It was a catalyst. My my parents and I really 58 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: were getting along at that time. You know, I was. 59 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 1: I was an angry team, which happens when you put 60 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: on that mask every single day and you pretend to 61 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: be somebody else that society tells you that you should be. 62 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: So I got an argue with my parents one night, 63 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 1: and their line was always, if you don't like our rules, 64 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 1: there at the door, and so that night I took 65 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: the door and I never went back. And where did 66 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: you go that night? I I You know, I landed 67 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: on a friend sofa, which I stayed on for a 68 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 1: few months. And then I ended up in Springfield, Missouri, UM, 69 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 1: the big city of two people. Oh I've been there. Yeah, 70 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: I'm sure you have. You're from not too far from there, 71 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: that's right. So I ended up there. I enrolled myself 72 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: in high school, but I quickly realized that I was 73 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 1: not able to pay the bills and put a roof 74 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: over my head and stay in school. So I actually 75 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: dropped out of school at sixteen, and I started selling 76 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 1: long distance at m C I. So you might have 77 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: gotten a call from me back then to try to 78 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 1: switch your long distance service. Well, I can't remember whether 79 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:32,280 Speaker 1: I did or not. You know, you found your way 80 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 1: finally to New York, right, you know, if you can 81 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 1: make it there, you can make it anywhere. It's funny 82 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: you should say that, because then fast forward. You know, 83 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:42,279 Speaker 1: I moved to New York with a hundred bucks in 84 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: a suitcase, and I built my own brand, my own company, 85 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:48,359 Speaker 1: and my own retail stores. And I remember I was 86 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: on my way to the airport and a car service. 87 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 1: And you know again that that's a huge thing for 88 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: me back then, because when I first moved to New York, 89 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:57,280 Speaker 1: I had to walk around the city to look for 90 00:04:57,320 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 1: a job because I couldn't eat them for the subway. 91 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: So I was in a car on my way to 92 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 1: the airport to fly to l A for the opening 93 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:07,159 Speaker 1: of my Los Angeles store, and Alicia Keys came on 94 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: that New York song and I just start bawling in 95 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: the car, and I just think of the song and 96 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 1: the poor drivers, like, oh my god, you know what's 97 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: going on with this guy. But it was just such 98 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: a moment for me to hear that song and realize, 99 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: you know, if you can make it in New York, 100 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 1: you can make it anywhere. That story and not that 101 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: you know you've got it to go to New York 102 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 1: to make it anywhere, but it definitely making it New 103 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 1: York makes it a little easier other places. Well, did 104 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: you ever reconcile with your family? Um? A few years 105 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: after I left, my parents called me and they're like, 106 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: you know, we're sorry, We're sorry, we were bad parents, 107 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 1: were sorry, we didn't know how to deal with you. Um, 108 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: And we reconciled and now we're very very close. And 109 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 1: my parents have come such a long way. You know, 110 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:56,040 Speaker 1: my parents have come from being very anti it's okay, 111 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:59,359 Speaker 1: and homophobic. So now, like my dad, anytime I'm on 112 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: the phone with with FaceTime, my husband's name is Dewey. 113 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: My dad called him do Do and he's like, where's do? 114 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: Do you know? He does? He loves my husband, I 115 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 1: think almost more than me. They've come so far both 116 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: you know, religiously and politically. Um. You know, they're in 117 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 1: a very very red state and I know unfortunately who 118 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: they voted for back in But a phone call a 119 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:27,359 Speaker 1: few weeks ago, my eighty year old cowboy dad said, 120 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:31,599 Speaker 1: I want you to know I didn't vote for him, 121 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,720 Speaker 1: just for you, just you, I didn't vote for him. 122 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: He's like, I didn't vote for the other guy either, 123 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 1: but I didn't vote for him. And I'm like, well, 124 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: you know what that is a start. You know a 125 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 1: lot of people say you have the hardest job on Queer. I. 126 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 1: You know, you have to go into people's homes, you 127 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: have to completely gut and redo an incredibly short time. Well, 128 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 1: other members of the Fab five or you know, giving haircuts, Um, 129 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 1: do you get fair to say that, know, what you 130 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 1: have to do is the hardest of the jobs. And 131 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 1: have you ever felt totally overwhelmed by what you're facing? 132 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: You know, I, I might have the most time consuming 133 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: job on the show, but I wouldn't say it's the 134 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: hardest job. And I knew what I was getting into 135 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: going into it. You know, I I have a design business. 136 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 1: This is actually what I do for a living, So 137 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: I knew it wasn't gonna be easy. I knew it 138 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:24,679 Speaker 1: was going to be the most time consuming and I'd 139 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 1: be working, you know, quote unquote physically working more than them, 140 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: but every single one of us. If we didn't do 141 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 1: what we did, the show wouldn't be what it was. 142 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: And you know, often I would say Karamo's job is 143 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: the hardest. He's the one that really has to crack 144 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: them emotionally when these people have up walls. I mean, 145 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: that's the reason why they're on this show, is where 146 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: you're to help them emotionally, Like I'm just using a 147 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 1: tear design to trick them into opening up about stuff. 148 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: You know, his his sometimes is the real I would 149 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 1: say hardest. Have you always had an eye for design? 150 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: Is that something that you knew about yourself as as 151 00:07:59,880 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 1: a child or a young man, you know. When I 152 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: was little, I still remember, I don't know if you 153 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: remember Ben Franklin's. I don't know if you had those 154 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: in Arkansas. We did. We would go into Ben Franklin 155 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: all the time because my mom was a big sewer 156 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: and she made a lot of our clothes, and she 157 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: even made I don't know if you remember back in 158 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: the day with cabbage Patch kids were so popular, but 159 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: we couldn't afford a real cabbage Patch kids. So you 160 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: could buy and Ben Franklin you could buy the heads 161 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: and then my mom would make the bodies. And so 162 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 1: we were always in Ben Franklin and she was buying 163 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 1: fabric to make his clothes. And I remember I would 164 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:32,959 Speaker 1: go through there and then in the decor section and 165 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 1: I would always love that. And I was probably five 166 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 1: years old the first time that I wanted to redo 167 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 1: my room. I found a poster in Ben Franklin and 168 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:44,680 Speaker 1: it was this dinosaur poster kind of cartoon is Trying. 169 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: And I talked to my mom and say getting that. 170 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: I think I used birthday money to buy it, and 171 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:54,560 Speaker 1: I I coordinated everything in the room from bedspreads and pillows, 172 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 1: to curtains, to the colors in that dinosaur poster. And I, 173 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: you know, growing up up in you know, it was 174 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: a small farming town in Missouri, design wasn't a thing. 175 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 1: You know, there was home interior parties that my mom 176 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 1: would have, but it wasn't really something I thought of 177 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:14,079 Speaker 1: as a career. The d of the only designers I 178 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 1: saw were designing women, you know on television that show, 179 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 1: you know, Delta Burke. Uh. You know, there were no 180 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: interior designers in Mount Vernon, Missouri. And it wasn't until 181 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 1: my early teens when I walked into Target and I 182 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 1: saw their very first design collaboration, which was with Michael Graves. 183 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: And that book behind me that you can see is 184 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 1: the and of the twentieth anniversary collection of Targets Collaborations 185 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 1: with designers. And the reason why I bring that up 186 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: is because that collaboration is what inspired me to be 187 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: a designer. That collaboration was the first time I looked 188 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:56,599 Speaker 1: at a spoon and I thought, Huh, spoons aren't just utilitarian. 189 00:09:56,679 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 1: Spoons can actually spark joy. Spoons can look cool, a 190 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: toaster can look cool. And so that moment twenty two 191 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: years ago now inspired me to be a designer and 192 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:12,440 Speaker 1: I'm in this book. Oh that's so touching. Such a 193 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:16,599 Speaker 1: full circle moment of that collaboration and that architect and 194 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 1: target really going out on a limb to try to 195 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: be different and democratized design is what inspired me. And 196 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: then to be full circle to be able to be 197 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: a part of that book was just mind blowing. It 198 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 1: sounds like you've really thought hard about who you are, 199 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 1: what you do, how you interact with people. And I 200 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: want to just go back to the point you made 201 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 1: earlier about how difficult the church that you were part 202 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: of when you were a young boy made it for 203 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 1: you becoming who you were, accepting who you were. You know, 204 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 1: if God doesn't make mistakes, then you know, guess what. 205 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 1: God doesn't make mistakes, and it shouldn't be you know, 206 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:02,319 Speaker 1: conditioned by somebody, that's right, So you know, one of 207 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 1: the hardest things you had to do, I've read, is 208 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 1: to you know, navigate your relationship often challenging, sometimes hurtful 209 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: to religion. And in the course of your work, though 210 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 1: I've noticed on Queer I you found yourself working with 211 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: deeply religious people and even redesigning churches so how did 212 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 1: you come to do that and what did it make 213 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: you feel as you went through that. You know, the 214 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 1: first episode that we did in a church was Mama Tammy, 215 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 1: and that episode was sprung on us the week before, 216 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: and normally we know what's going on a few weeks out, 217 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 1: but there was somebody who was supposed to be in 218 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: that episode and they had a health emergency, and so 219 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: our executive producers had to very quickly try to recast, 220 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 1: and Mama Tammy got cast, and I mean, I'm so 221 00:11:56,200 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 1: glad she did. But I had told Netflix because I 222 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 1: had total executive producers in the very beginning, when we 223 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: had our very first lunch after I got casts, and 224 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:07,679 Speaker 1: I'm like, I'll do anything you guys want. I'll go 225 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 1: into any situation. My one non negotiable is do not 226 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: ask me to go into a church. And they did 227 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:21,439 Speaker 1: very good of steering clear of religion until this last episode. 228 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 1: And I was told you're gonna be redoing a community center, 229 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 1: and my you know, design producer leans over and he's like, 230 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 1: don't believe it. It's a church. It's not a community center. 231 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: You know. Producers were then like, yeah, you know, it's 232 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:41,839 Speaker 1: a community center. Next to a church, and I'm like, girl, 233 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 1: I grew up in a church. I know that that's 234 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: just the fellowship hall. Don't try to tell me it's 235 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 1: a community center. So I refused to do the episode. 236 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: And I'm like, I I told you guys, this was 237 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 1: my one non negotiable. I have been through an emotional 238 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 1: roller coaster doing the show the last year, and I 239 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 1: know what I need to stay no to for my 240 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: own mental health. I'm like, this is going to break me. 241 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: And you know, there was a lot of back and forth, 242 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: and I got called by one of the guys, Joel 243 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 1: at the at Scout Productions, the creators of the show, 244 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 1: and he went through a lot of the same emotional 245 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 1: trauma that I went through in a church, you know, 246 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 1: growing up your entire life being taught to hate yourself, 247 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: being taught to know that when you die you're gonna 248 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: burn in hell, and begging and pleading for God to 249 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: change you, but he's not, and so you just you 250 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: hate yourself and you hate yourself, and to be honest, 251 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:47,319 Speaker 1: you never get over that. You can come to terms 252 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 1: with it a bit, but you never get over it. 253 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 1: And so he called me and he's like, I get it. 254 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: You know, I fully understand why you would never want 255 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 1: to walk into that church, why you would never want 256 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:01,319 Speaker 1: to help the people who damaged you, who are probably 257 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: damaging kids in their church right now. But that is 258 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 1: exactly why you need to do it. You need to 259 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 1: do it for all the little Bobbies and the little 260 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:14,440 Speaker 1: Joels still sitting in churches being taught to hate themselves. 261 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 1: And so reluctantly I did it. And I don't know 262 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: if you've seen that episode, but in the beginning of 263 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 1: the episode, you know, the guy, the construction guy, was like, oh, 264 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 1: come on into the church. I want to show you 265 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: all the other boys went in and I refused. And 266 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 1: it wasn't in a dramatic way. It was just like 267 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: I stood outside the front door and I'm like, I'm good, 268 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: thank you, and he was like, well, no, you know, 269 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: come on in. I was like, I'm good, thank you. 270 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 1: And to be honest, I I came under some some 271 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: angry flak from some some people high ups not at 272 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 1: Netflix that were quite angry with me for offensively not 273 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 1: walking in that church. And at the end of the 274 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 1: day I was so and at the end of the 275 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 1: day they were glad. Actually I didn't as well, because 276 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 1: it it really proved a point to people, and it 277 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: showed that you can without anger and without strife and fighting, 278 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: just stay true to yourself and know the things that 279 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: will break you and your mental health. And I think 280 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 1: it showed a lot of people that it is okay 281 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: to have a different point of view, but to coexist. 282 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: It's okay. You know what, I'm gonna go in and 283 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: I'm gonna help this church, but I'm going to know 284 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 1: where the line is for me, you know. And at 285 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: the end of the day, the amount of d m 286 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 1: s and emails and letters that I have received from 287 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: people and pastors, pastors who have messaged me and have 288 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 1: said my entire life in church, I grew up being 289 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 1: taught and believing that gays weren't abomination, that you were evil, 290 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 1: that you chose to be gay, And I, in turn, 291 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 1: have preached that same hate in my church. And I 292 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 1: am now devastated with myself for the damage that I 293 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: have done two kids. And I will never again preach 294 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 1: that in my church again. You know, it was, honestly, 295 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 1: it was emotional trauma doing that. And you know, because 296 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 1: you were so honest in the beginning, you know, the 297 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 1: viewer could follow not just the experience of the episode, 298 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 1: but the arc of your you know, reactions and how 299 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: you dealt with it. And isn't it the case that 300 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: Mama Tammy's son is gay. Yes. So one of the 301 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 1: reasons why Mama Tammy was chosen is because Miles had 302 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: come out a few years before that and she didn't 303 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 1: disown him, but it didn't go well. You know, he 304 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: left home, he went off to school. He was also 305 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: one of those kids who grew up in church every 306 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: single day and when he came out, he was shunned. 307 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 1: So one of the reasons why they were chosen is 308 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 1: because we wanted to help Mama Tammy except Miles, and 309 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: we also wanted to help Miles kind of deal with 310 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: the pain that he went through of having a group 311 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 1: of people who were supposed to love you one conditionally 312 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 1: and you devoted your entire life to all of a 313 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 1: sudden turn their back on you the moment they find 314 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 1: out who you are. Um So, through a lot of 315 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:18,639 Speaker 1: talk with Loma Tammy, who is a lovely, wonderful person, 316 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:23,439 Speaker 1: she realized where she failed him, and that final scene 317 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: of that episode where she stands up and witnesses in 318 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 1: her church and she's like, you cannot claim to love 319 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 1: Jesus and not love gay people. You cannot be a 320 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 1: Christian and not love gay people. Was such an amazing moment. 321 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: We're taking a quick break. Stay with us. You know, 322 00:17:55,920 --> 00:18:01,479 Speaker 1: people change, they grow, they absorb, they evolve. However we 323 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,399 Speaker 1: want to talk about it. I certainly have, everybody I 324 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: know has, But that requires an open mind and a 325 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:11,479 Speaker 1: willingness to move on from where you were. And for 326 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 1: the church to be close to that is incredibly profoundly 327 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 1: sad to me because the church is in many ways 328 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 1: a place of refuge for people, but so are people's homes. 329 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 1: And you spend your life which is really a calling, Bobby. 330 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:32,959 Speaker 1: It's a calling to help people make their homes places 331 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 1: of security, comfort and beauty. But during this pandemic, where 332 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:42,439 Speaker 1: people have been at home so much, how have you 333 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:44,640 Speaker 1: talked to them? How have you even thought about it 334 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: that you could help people kind of make their homes 335 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 1: places they want to be after having been in them 336 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:57,119 Speaker 1: under such really difficult circumstances. I would say start with 337 00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:59,880 Speaker 1: something small. Organization is the best thing. Don't worry about 338 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 1: the sign. You don't have to stress yourself out of 339 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:04,159 Speaker 1: Oh I don't know how to place things. Just start 340 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 1: by organizing things. Start with that junk drawer in the kitchen. 341 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:10,719 Speaker 1: We all have that drunk tour that collects everything. Go 342 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 1: through that, get rid of the things you don't need, 343 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: and that will be a sense of accomplishment and you'll realize, oh, 344 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 1: I can do this, and then I'm going to move 345 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: on to the rest of the cabinet. So no, I'm 346 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: gonna move onto that hall closet, or I'm going to 347 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:25,359 Speaker 1: move on to that guest bedroom that's been the catch 348 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 1: all of all these things that I thought I needed 349 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,120 Speaker 1: to hang on too. But they've been sitting in this 350 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 1: room for an entire year and I've been home and 351 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: I still haven't done anything. So you know what, it's 352 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,639 Speaker 1: time to donate them and let them spark joy for 353 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: somebody else. So start with organizing, and organizing is going 354 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: to turn into design. Organizing is designing. I love that phrase. 355 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 1: You know your life has turned out so differently than 356 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: you could have ever thought possible when you were a kid. 357 00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: If you could tell your fifteen year old self what 358 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 1: his life was going to be like. And I think 359 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 1: it's really great to hear you do that, because I 360 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,199 Speaker 1: think there are a lot of fifteen year old sixty 361 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 1: seventeen year old there's a lot of people out there 362 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: who will find comfort and confidence from what you have 363 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: to say. I mean, my biggest advice would be, don't 364 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:28,160 Speaker 1: let anyone tell you who you are. Don't let anyone 365 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: tell you what you can or cannot be. And you know, 366 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 1: even as adults, we struggle with this. I'm sure you 367 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 1: struggle with this. People try to find you, they try 368 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:41,439 Speaker 1: to tell you who you are, and they're just random strangers. 369 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:45,439 Speaker 1: Even so, my advice for fifteen year olds or fifty 370 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 1: year olds or ninety year olds is, don't let anyone 371 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: tell you who you are. Don't let anyone define you. 372 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 1: Only you can define who you are, and don't let 373 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 1: anyone else's definition of who you are hold you back 374 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:02,880 Speaker 1: to your greatest potential. Oh I love that. And it's 375 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 1: a lifelong journey and process, isn't it. I still struggle 376 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:11,119 Speaker 1: with it. Everybody does well, Bobby Burke, I'm thrilled to 377 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: talk with you. You are everything that I thought you 378 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 1: would be, and I am so grateful that you're willing 379 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 1: to tell your story because it's going to land on 380 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,439 Speaker 1: different ears in different ways. And there are still so 381 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 1: many people who need to hear that you can do 382 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 1: hard things and you can make a life that you're 383 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: proud of and that you want to share with the 384 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 1: rest of us. So thank you so very much, thank you, 385 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:39,680 Speaker 1: thank you so much for having me Madam Secretary, and 386 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 1: this has been an honor. If you'd like to learn 387 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 1: more about Bobby's design company, go to Bobby Burke dot com. 388 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:54,440 Speaker 1: And if you've enjoyed today's conversation with Bobby, you can 389 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 1: also check out my interview with Tan France, another member 390 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:02,159 Speaker 1: of the Fab Five, and that interview is from season 391 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: one of this podcast, in our episode on the American Dreams, 392 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: So go give it a listen. I could not have 393 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:15,359 Speaker 1: been more excited to talk with two people that I 394 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 1: knew of separately, but boy, they are a true powerhouse together. 395 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 1: And I think you'll understand why I say that after 396 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 1: you listen to this conversation with Abby Wamback and Glenn 397 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: and Doyle. I first learned about Abby Wamback in connection 398 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: with women's soccer. You know, a hundred years ago, when 399 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:41,200 Speaker 1: I was in junior high school, I actually played soccer 400 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 1: and it wasn't very common. I had a physical education 401 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: teacher who loved the game. Not very many people even 402 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: knew about it, but I always was interested in soccer. 403 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 1: You know, from that experience going forward, and you know, 404 00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:01,119 Speaker 1: Abby's a two time Olympic gold medalists. She has the 405 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 1: most amazing record with the Women's World Cup, winning it 406 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 1: for the USA. In she wrote a fantastic memoir called 407 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:16,479 Speaker 1: Forward and another book called Wolfpack, How to come together 408 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 1: on leash our power and Change the Game. So I 409 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 1: have followed her from afar, both based on her athletic 410 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 1: prowess and what she has to say which is really 411 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:33,640 Speaker 1: worth hearing. I first encountered Glennan when she was gaining 412 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 1: a lot of attention as a blogger about being a 413 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,919 Speaker 1: wife and a mom and a Christian, and she amassed 414 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:46,199 Speaker 1: this very large following because she was so willing to 415 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 1: be vulnerable and talking about all the challenges in her 416 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:54,399 Speaker 1: own life. Some listeners know that she has authored to 417 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 1: New York Times bestsellers, Love Warrior and her latest book 418 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 1: on Tame Aimed, and her rallying cry is we can 419 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 1: do hard things. But honestly, I had no idea until 420 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,159 Speaker 1: maybe the last year or two that Glennon Doyle and 421 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:17,680 Speaker 1: Abby Lombach had not just gotten together but gotten married, 422 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 1: and I went, lo, I have to talk to them. 423 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,880 Speaker 1: I cannot tell you how excited I have to talk 424 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,679 Speaker 1: to you both. So when I came across and I 425 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,159 Speaker 1: don't even remember how I stumbled into this, because it 426 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 1: was before I read Untamed, of course, and I realized 427 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,239 Speaker 1: you two had gotten together and gotten married. I was like, 428 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: oh my god, the universe, the stars, the Cosmo Sissi 429 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 1: in alignment, how did this happen? And so Glenn and 430 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 1: you've written about it, I want you to start, and 431 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: then I want Abby to give us her view of it. Okay, 432 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 1: So we were at a book event. Okay, it was 433 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:07,359 Speaker 1: a librarians mentioned super sexy, super sexy library. Um. I 434 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,359 Speaker 1: was at a table full of writers and we were 435 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,479 Speaker 1: trying to make small talk with each other, which is 436 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,439 Speaker 1: just a nightmare. And the woman I was talking to, 437 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 1: she was a children's book book writer, and I noticed 438 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,640 Speaker 1: that she stopped talking and she looked turned towards the door, 439 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 1: and so all of a sudden, the room got quiet. 440 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: So I turned towards the door and there was this 441 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 1: woman standing in the doorway, and she was like thirty 442 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: ft tall and had this like shaved side head and 443 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: platinum hair, and she's wearing this trench coat. And she 444 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 1: just had this presence that was very cool but also 445 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 1: very warm, and she looked like a man and a 446 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,359 Speaker 1: woman and beyond both and and and hello me. This 447 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,120 Speaker 1: was like, this is a table full of writers like 448 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,920 Speaker 1: we the level of cool that had entered the room, 449 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: we didn't understand. It was like the mocking Jay had 450 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 1: landed at a nerdy book part right. And I it 451 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,399 Speaker 1: is well known in my family that my spiritual gift 452 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 1: is whatever awkwardness is in a room, I am able 453 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,639 Speaker 1: always to make it more awkward. Okay, that's what I 454 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: do for the world. And so something happened to me 455 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 1: in that moment I looked at her. I understood that 456 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: I was having some kind of reunion. It didn't feel 457 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: like I was meeting her. It felt like I was 458 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,119 Speaker 1: reuniting with her. But then, unfortunately I lost control of 459 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:35,439 Speaker 1: my body, and so I stood up out of my 460 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:40,719 Speaker 1: chair and threw my arms open toward her at the door. Okay, 461 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 1: so I don't know this is happening until I come 462 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,400 Speaker 1: to consciousness and realize that everyone's now staring at me. 463 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 1: So now I have to figure out how I'm going 464 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 1: to get from this position back to my chair. Did 465 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 1: you know who she was? Um? I knew she was. 466 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 1: I'm not a fan of the sports, but I did 467 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 1: understand something about World Cups, something about the soccer um, 468 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: and so I I bowed. This is a family joke now, 469 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 1: and people do it all the time when someone walks 470 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: into a room, because I thought maybe I can just 471 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 1: play it off like I'm a weird writer who bows 472 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:19,159 Speaker 1: when people walk appropriate, right, right, So I bound and 473 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,400 Speaker 1: sat down. That was the moment we saw each other 474 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,440 Speaker 1: for the first time. I'm sure your moment was just 475 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,159 Speaker 1: as magical. It was a little different. Oh good, I 476 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,160 Speaker 1: want to hear the Abbey version of this. Yeah. So 477 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: I walk into the room and for whatever reason, I'm 478 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,719 Speaker 1: like running a little late, which is so unlike me. 479 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 1: And I get into the room and they're they're all 480 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 1: they're sitting down eating dinner, and this person across the 481 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:45,719 Speaker 1: way stands up and puts her arms stretched out, And 482 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,919 Speaker 1: so now I'm in the awkward position that I have 483 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 1: to go unite with her because she has body language 484 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,879 Speaker 1: told me we are going to embrace, So I have 485 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,160 Speaker 1: to like side stuff because you know, this is a 486 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,639 Speaker 1: small room and the chairs are kind of close to 487 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 1: the wall, so I've got a sidestep all the way 488 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:09,400 Speaker 1: around to Glennon and I finally get to her, and 489 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 1: at this point she has since sat back down and 490 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: she just says, can I hug you? I was like, well, 491 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 1: like that was even an option. You have energetically forced 492 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 1: me around this whole table, So we hug. And I 493 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:28,119 Speaker 1: had done a little bit of research on all the 494 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 1: authors that would be there, and she was the one 495 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 1: author that I was like, Oh, I want to talk 496 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 1: to her, okay, why you know? The Love Wayar and 497 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 1: the premise of Love Waar was was kind of in 498 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 1: the little research that I had, and in it it 499 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: said that she was sober, and I had just recently 500 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 1: gotten sober, like a month ago, so I was very 501 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 1: interested and curious about how somebody does sobriety period right 502 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 1: so um, and and that she was so fearless in 503 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 1: telling her truth. It was something I was very big 504 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 1: time struggling with because I hadn't actually finished the book 505 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: that I was there to publicize, because there was a 506 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 1: part of it the d u I that I got 507 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 1: at the end of my career walking straight into my retirement. 508 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 1: I didn't know if I wanted to include it. And 509 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 1: she just said, you know, real people in the real 510 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 1: world want the truth, and that is what you should 511 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 1: give people. And I just thought, oh, that's amazing. And 512 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 1: then she said, I also have a rap sheet as 513 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 1: long as your arms, so I don't even worry about it. 514 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: Of course, you know, you got up from the dinner 515 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 1: and you went your separate ways. So what happened next? 516 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 1: How did that moment, that electric moment, evolve into a 517 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 1: marriage with three kids and a house? I mean, you know, 518 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 1: a real all American love story. What happened? Well, it 519 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 1: got even weirderer or not. I was in a very 520 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: broken marriage to a good man. That's a tricky place 521 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 1: to because we're supposed to be dis grateful for what 522 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 1: we have and other people have it worse. And yeah, 523 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 1: yeah right, So, um, I really did have to decide 524 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 1: whether I was just gonna shut down whatever had just 525 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 1: happened to me in that room and go back to 526 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 1: my broken marriage, or whether I was going to be 527 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 1: open to it and pursue it. And and and what 528 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 1: I try to explain to Abby is it didn't feel 529 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: like a love decision. At the time, it felt like, 530 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 1: am I going to honor this self that I have 531 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 1: just met again? Like that was buried clearly, you know, 532 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 1: this person that announced itself in that room. Am I 533 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 1: going to abandon her again and just go back to 534 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 1: good enough? Or am I going to honor that? Like 535 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 1: it kind of felt like spiritually life and death. And 536 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 1: so what happened is that we started emailing each other. 537 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 1: I found her email address from her assistant that was 538 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 1: at the event, and I wrote to her, you know, 539 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 1: just as like a good person does, just offering my 540 00:30:54,400 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 1: best spiritual advice. You know, I just felt motive reaching 541 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 1: out into the world. No, I just really felt like 542 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 1: I wanted to do the right thing, And so I 543 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 1: wrote to her, and we started writing back and forth, 544 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 1: and we overtime fell in love through letters. We didn't 545 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 1: see each other again in person until we had both 546 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: completely dismantled our lives. I mean, well, yeah, we didn't 547 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 1: see each other until months and months later, and when 548 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 1: I had already sat down with Craig and told him 549 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 1: I'm leaving I'm in love with Abby. We had talked 550 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 1: to the children we had start and she had done 551 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 1: the same thing. So we fell in love through letters. 552 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 1: Oh that makes it even more romantic. But Abby, here 553 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 1: you were. You were at the beginning of your sobriety journey. 554 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: You had encountered this spirit in this you know woman 555 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 1: at the dinner, and all of a sudden you start 556 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 1: emailing how did you come to the realization that you 557 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 1: you needed to continue with sobriety, but everything else in 558 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,480 Speaker 1: your life had to change. When you're early in your 559 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 1: sobriety life, you're so concerned with how do we rebuild 560 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: a life? And at the time, so much of my 561 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 1: life was revolved around going out and partying, and those 562 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 1: were the friends that I had, and I knew that 563 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 1: I had to have a completely different experience to stay sober. 564 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 1: And the way that Glennon and I like to define 565 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 1: that word is just peace. So Glennon gave me the 566 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 1: understanding that it is possible. Right so early on. She 567 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:32,959 Speaker 1: was married and I'm like, I was getting a divorce 568 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 1: and I was like, you know what, I just want 569 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 1: to be close to this person because she's giving me 570 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 1: confidence in this piece that I'm in search of. And 571 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 1: then I think that, you know, not that she was 572 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 1: a sponsor for me in any way. Um, but I 573 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:48,160 Speaker 1: think that having people like that to help you on 574 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 1: that sobriety journey, I know that it has completely saved 575 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 1: my life. But at the end of the day too, 576 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 1: when you throw love into the mix and then deciding 577 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 1: to build a whole life together, I can't even remember 578 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 1: the time that I wasn't sober or I didn't have you, 579 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 1: you know, so I just I'm so grateful for so 580 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 1: many reasons. Glennon. By that time, how long had you 581 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 1: been sober? I guess Ober the day I found out 582 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 1: I was pregnant with my son, Chase, And now he 583 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 1: is eighteen, so back then it would have been fifteen years. 584 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: You know. One thing that I have thought a lot about, 585 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,719 Speaker 1: Glennon is because you you really came to public awareness. 586 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 1: I first became aware of you because of your writing 587 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 1: and you're speaking, your Ted talk and all of that, 588 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 1: and you had a really large Christian following. How has 589 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 1: that been affected by, you know, your divorce, by your 590 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:47,479 Speaker 1: falling in love with and marrying Abby. For your very 591 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,680 Speaker 1: open description of what your life is like now. Yeah, 592 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 1: one of the interesting things about when I announced online 593 00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,720 Speaker 1: that Abby and I were going to be together the 594 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 1: night before that happened my team. I remember someone saying, well, 595 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 1: tomorrow's the blood bath. That's what I went to bed thinking, Oh, 596 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 1: tomorrow's the blood bath. Right that morning, I wrote a 597 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:17,879 Speaker 1: short something. It was very important to me to tell 598 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: but not to explain. I felt very I thought it 599 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 1: was important to tell the truth but not be responsible 600 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 1: for anyone's reaction to it, right, And so I wrote 601 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,239 Speaker 1: a paragraph. I put a picture of Abby and me 602 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 1: on Facebook or Instagram or something, and then I walked away. 603 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,799 Speaker 1: I shut the computer and walked away. My sister, who 604 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 1: was my protector in all things, she was going to 605 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:43,200 Speaker 1: monitor the world as she tries to do. Just fix 606 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 1: the world for me, real quick, right, so um. A 607 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:48,879 Speaker 1: few hours later, she called me crying. My sister does 608 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 1: not cry. She called me crying. She said, Glenn, and 609 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,799 Speaker 1: I need you to get on your social media. I 610 00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 1: need you to get on and I need you to 611 00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:01,799 Speaker 1: read how your community, how your people are reacting to 612 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:05,920 Speaker 1: this news. And I was expecting a blood bath. And 613 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:10,360 Speaker 1: it felt like a baptism. It was so beautiful, and 614 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 1: it wasn't just beautiful in that people who you know 615 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,359 Speaker 1: understood it and celebrated it. And we're super progressive. They 616 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:21,319 Speaker 1: were celebratory. Even the people who were confused as all right, 617 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:28,800 Speaker 1: who were like, um okay, love winds um like they've 618 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,839 Speaker 1: got that, Like they didn't have any clue, but they 619 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:36,000 Speaker 1: were trying. You know, It's just wow. You know, I 620 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:38,120 Speaker 1: have to ask both of you as you were talking 621 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,319 Speaker 1: about and I loved what you told Abby and what 622 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: Abby just told us. You had said about real people 623 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 1: want the truth? Why do we do at this point 624 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 1: in our country where it does seem like a lot 625 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:54,480 Speaker 1: of real people want anything but the truth. And I've 626 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,960 Speaker 1: thought about the two of you in this context, because 627 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:01,719 Speaker 1: I mean, you've really been and on the forefront of 628 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 1: making change. You know, whether you knew it or not, 629 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,680 Speaker 1: you have been and for that, I am certainly grateful, 630 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:11,920 Speaker 1: and you've gone through a lot. And I am just 631 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:15,840 Speaker 1: wondering if you have any thoughts about how we began 632 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,760 Speaker 1: reaching other people. I mean, we're not all going to agree, fine, 633 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:23,239 Speaker 1: but to help create more of a community like the 634 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:27,920 Speaker 1: community that received your truths both of you, the larger 635 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 1: community is so divided and it's a dangerous divide. Any 636 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:36,279 Speaker 1: thoughts on that. The time that I spent with the 637 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 1: national team, it was so special because there was this 638 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:46,439 Speaker 1: little ecosystem of women who all could agree on one thing, 639 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:50,879 Speaker 1: and that was winning. Now, we sat around a ton 640 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:55,000 Speaker 1: of meal tables for hundreds and hundreds and thousands of hours. 641 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:57,759 Speaker 1: So you sit around the table after you've eaten, and 642 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 1: you talk and we discussed. We disagreed. There were Republicans, 643 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:07,120 Speaker 1: there were democrats, there were straight there were evangelicals, there 644 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:12,360 Speaker 1: were every kind of person. Yet we were still able 645 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 1: to accomplish this thing at winning. And I think about 646 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:19,680 Speaker 1: this all the time because I understand that this is 647 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,720 Speaker 1: a super complex issue as it relates to the nation 648 00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:25,600 Speaker 1: where we're at right now. But I think about this 649 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,080 Speaker 1: and it does give me hope. I wasn't best friends 650 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:31,840 Speaker 1: with every single one of my teammates, but I respected 651 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:34,920 Speaker 1: the hell out of every single one of those women 652 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 1: because guess what, every single one of us, I'm like 653 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:41,719 Speaker 1: giving myself the children's cellarius. Every single one of us 654 00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 1: would show up, would sacrifice the same amount, and we 655 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 1: would give it all because we bought into this idea 656 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:53,919 Speaker 1: not only the relentless pursuit of excellence, but to win. So, yes, 657 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,239 Speaker 1: we disagreed, but we were able to still function. And 658 00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,880 Speaker 1: by the way, when you know this whole year of 659 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:04,279 Speaker 1: the team that I now am thinking based on what 660 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,279 Speaker 1: you just said that you know, there's another idea. There's 661 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:11,000 Speaker 1: another book in you Abby about the American team. It's 662 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,480 Speaker 1: not just the women who play soccer. It is all 663 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:16,239 Speaker 1: of us. And we used to think we were on 664 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 1: the same team. I mean, even if we disagreed with 665 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 1: each other, even if we've found each other, you know, 666 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:25,879 Speaker 1: totally ridiculous. We always thought we were on the same team. 667 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:30,799 Speaker 1: And we've had leaders recently who have divided us and said, no, 668 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:34,040 Speaker 1: you know, only one team is worth being on the team. 669 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,320 Speaker 1: I'm on the team. I lead the team that believes 670 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:41,319 Speaker 1: in me, which is so dangerous and destructive. But this 671 00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 1: idea of the American team, maybe we can figure out 672 00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,359 Speaker 1: how to explain that and in effect put it out 673 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:50,680 Speaker 1: into the world again. Thank you. I will send you 674 00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:54,439 Speaker 1: some royalties for this book. I will take that little 675 00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 1: nugget and I'm going to run with it. I wish 676 00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:00,239 Speaker 1: you would, you know, I love to behind Glennon is 677 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:05,080 Speaker 1: her Matra. We can do hard things, and you've really 678 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,120 Speaker 1: seated that in the world. Glennon, how does it feel 679 00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:11,680 Speaker 1: to see more and more people coming around to this 680 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:15,040 Speaker 1: idea that you first really understood when you were a 681 00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 1: third grade teacher and another teacher put that up on 682 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,480 Speaker 1: the wall of her classroom. Well, it's I mean, I 683 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:24,000 Speaker 1: think that the idea we can do hard things is 684 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 1: sort of a declaration of hope, right, but it's hope 685 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 1: based in reality. It's not like this is easy, just 686 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 1: wake up in the morning and do it and come on. No, 687 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 1: it's like this time. It's resonating right now so much 688 00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:46,200 Speaker 1: because we're all facing the hard stuff. You know. We 689 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:48,719 Speaker 1: talk a lot about how this metaphor where it's like 690 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,680 Speaker 1: we're all snow globes. I had the snow globe when 691 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:53,120 Speaker 1: I was little, and I loved it, but I hated 692 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:55,880 Speaker 1: it because it was so beautiful that the snow in it, 693 00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,120 Speaker 1: But there was this terrifying dragon at the center of it, 694 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:00,279 Speaker 1: and I thought it was so scary. So I keep 695 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,120 Speaker 1: it shaken up all the time so I never had 696 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:05,200 Speaker 1: to see that scary red dragon. And that reminds me 697 00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:09,640 Speaker 1: of myself, right, just constantly keeping myself shaken up with 698 00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:15,160 Speaker 1: whatever it is business, um, snark, shopping, food, what it 699 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,239 Speaker 1: used to be, boot, whatever it is, you know, so 700 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:20,319 Speaker 1: that I don't have to see the dragon at the 701 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:23,200 Speaker 1: center of things, and I think that's what you know, 702 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,760 Speaker 1: COVID has been this forced settling of the collective snow globe, 703 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,000 Speaker 1: and we are looking at the dragons of our lives 704 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:33,080 Speaker 1: and our relationships and our nation, you know, and that's hard, 705 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:36,600 Speaker 1: Like looking at the truth of things is the hardest thing. 706 00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,920 Speaker 1: That's beginning of sobriety. It's the beginning of any healing 707 00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:42,640 Speaker 1: of a relationship. I think it's it's the beginning of 708 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:46,640 Speaker 1: the possibility for hope, for healing for our nation. But 709 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:50,680 Speaker 1: we avoid that part because the truth is so scary. 710 00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:52,960 Speaker 1: But the reason why it's hopeful is because you can't 711 00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:57,360 Speaker 1: slay any dragon without first looking at it. Yeah, accepting it. 712 00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:00,440 Speaker 1: It's there, It's in your nation, right, I'm anything we 713 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:04,080 Speaker 1: think about, you know, the racial reckoning that we've had 714 00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:06,480 Speaker 1: um and that we're having, and then it's just beginning, 715 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,279 Speaker 1: I think. And you think about how that started sort 716 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:11,799 Speaker 1: of during COVID and the George Floyd murder, and it's like, 717 00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:14,120 Speaker 1: but what was different about that time? We've been looking 718 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:16,920 Speaker 1: at this happening over and over again, but what was 719 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,200 Speaker 1: different is that we couldn't look away from it. We 720 00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:21,360 Speaker 1: were in our homes. We didn't have anywhere to go. 721 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:24,440 Speaker 1: We couldn't just caret we couldn't shake the snow globe 722 00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,040 Speaker 1: up again. And so I think that we can do 723 00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:30,239 Speaker 1: hard things is just a way of saying, oh my god, 724 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:34,640 Speaker 1: we are seeing all of our dragons right now. Good good, 725 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:49,880 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. I want to switch gears a minute, 726 00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,839 Speaker 1: because one of the areas that I think about when 727 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,560 Speaker 1: I think of you, Abby is your outspoken fight for 728 00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:02,479 Speaker 1: equal pay and benefits for American women in sports. And 729 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:06,960 Speaker 1: it's a disgrace where we are across the board, but 730 00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:10,759 Speaker 1: in particular in soccer. When I think about everything you 731 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,920 Speaker 1: gave for the sport, you know, one image that sticks 732 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:18,200 Speaker 1: in my mind is you know that qualifying World Cup 733 00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:23,280 Speaker 1: game against Mexico where literally you smashed your head. Blood 734 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:26,960 Speaker 1: is gushing from your head, and instead of walking off 735 00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:30,000 Speaker 1: the field and getting a substitute, you stood there and 736 00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:34,479 Speaker 1: had your head stapled closed. I mean, honest to God, 737 00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:38,000 Speaker 1: I think about that and I go, oh, I don't 738 00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:40,120 Speaker 1: know what is the equivalent in my life. When did I, 739 00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,920 Speaker 1: you know, go back in with my metaphoric, you know, Staples. 740 00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:48,359 Speaker 1: I think about that because then I remember how you 741 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:51,000 Speaker 1: were honored as you well should have been. And as 742 00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:53,879 Speaker 1: I write about you in the book of Gutsy Women 743 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,360 Speaker 1: that I wrote with my daughter, I think the record 744 00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,920 Speaker 1: still is you have scored more goals in international competition 745 00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:03,200 Speaker 1: than any woman or man in the history of you know, 746 00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:08,200 Speaker 1: international soccer, which obviously is huge. And ESPN honored you 747 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,759 Speaker 1: along with Kobe Bryant and Peyton Manning, and I was 748 00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,240 Speaker 1: thrilled that you know you were going to be given 749 00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:22,640 Speaker 1: this incredible recognition, But explain how you felt at that moment, 750 00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:26,799 Speaker 1: because I think listeners need to understand that behind the 751 00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,960 Speaker 1: glory and the celebration, there was a harsh reality. Well, 752 00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:33,640 Speaker 1: so I just want to circle back two things. One, 753 00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:38,840 Speaker 1: God really loves Glennon, because God brought Glennon into my 754 00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:42,800 Speaker 1: life after my career, so that head stabling incident would 755 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:46,279 Speaker 1: not have flown very well with her. She would have 756 00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:51,160 Speaker 1: have passed out on the grounds to carry um. And 757 00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:55,200 Speaker 1: then secondly, and this is so great, Christine Sinclair, a 758 00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:58,240 Speaker 1: woman who plays for the team Canada, has since broken 759 00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:02,040 Speaker 1: the record that I took over from Mia, and something 760 00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:05,080 Speaker 1: so good needs to be shared and other women need 761 00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:08,959 Speaker 1: to experience what it feels like to have worked relentlessly 762 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:13,160 Speaker 1: for decades to accrue that many goals. So I'm happy 763 00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:16,040 Speaker 1: our children are like what do I say now, Like 764 00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:21,000 Speaker 1: my mom is like number two in the world for 765 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:24,719 Speaker 1: at least a week. Um, But then, you know, to 766 00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:28,440 Speaker 1: finish the story. In terms of Khobe and Peyton, I 767 00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:32,040 Speaker 1: felt so glad that they thought of me, you know. 768 00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:34,840 Speaker 1: And I remember being on that stage and I was 769 00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:36,759 Speaker 1: a little bit nervous because I had some lines to 770 00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:40,440 Speaker 1: say and it was nationally televised, and I nailed the lines. Hillary, 771 00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:44,160 Speaker 1: you know I did. I nailed go girl. I just 772 00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:49,640 Speaker 1: remember feeling on stage. I felt so grateful, right often 773 00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:54,000 Speaker 1: the only emotion women are allowed. So when the lights 774 00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,080 Speaker 1: turned off and the three of us turned to walk 775 00:44:56,120 --> 00:45:00,160 Speaker 1: off stage, something else happened inside of my body. I 776 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:03,719 Speaker 1: started to get a kind of rage that I had 777 00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:09,000 Speaker 1: never experienced before. A guilt, a fear, and anger, a rage. 778 00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:12,080 Speaker 1: I felt sick. I felt sick to my stomach that 779 00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,600 Speaker 1: I didn't do enough when I was in it because 780 00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:19,279 Speaker 1: this was my exit right. And here's the thing, you know, 781 00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:22,080 Speaker 1: Kobe and Peyton's biggest concerns at this point in their 782 00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:24,320 Speaker 1: retirement was where they were going to invest their hundreds 783 00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,560 Speaker 1: of millions of dollars that they collectively earned. And my 784 00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:30,920 Speaker 1: biggest concern, and this is a true story, is how 785 00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:34,880 Speaker 1: I was going to find a job to pay my mortgage, 786 00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:39,200 Speaker 1: how I was going to earn any money. And in 787 00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:41,359 Speaker 1: the hotel room that night, I promised myself two things. 788 00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:44,520 Speaker 1: Number One, Crystal Dunn, who's a current national team player, 789 00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:47,200 Speaker 1: Alex Morgan, who's a current national team player in Megan Rapino, 790 00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:50,759 Speaker 1: these women would never share this experience with me. I 791 00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:52,960 Speaker 1: will do whatever it takes to make sure that their 792 00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:57,799 Speaker 1: experience is different. And then number two, most importantly, if 793 00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:01,399 Speaker 1: this was happening to me, I understood deeply that this 794 00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:05,280 Speaker 1: was happening to every woman, because on some weird level, 795 00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,480 Speaker 1: when you get invited into certain rooms and you are 796 00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:11,239 Speaker 1: given certain seats at certain tables where decisions are made, 797 00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:13,840 Speaker 1: you have a sense that maybe I am not a 798 00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:19,560 Speaker 1: victim to this inequality right, But that night I understood 799 00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:23,680 Speaker 1: that I was. I understood that we all are. And 800 00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:27,960 Speaker 1: I have dedicated since then my whole life, my mission, 801 00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:30,600 Speaker 1: my purpose on this planet is to make sure that 802 00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:35,560 Speaker 1: we do everything possible to fix the inequalities that are 803 00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:39,879 Speaker 1: rampant through every industry. In every city and every state, 804 00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:43,760 Speaker 1: in every country of this world. Women they retire with less, 805 00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:48,000 Speaker 1: they have to work longer, which is just freedom. And 806 00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:51,520 Speaker 1: I I believe that people deserve to be treated equally. 807 00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:54,879 Speaker 1: I literally could talk to the two of you all day. 808 00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:57,920 Speaker 1: So let me and with this question each of you. 809 00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:01,719 Speaker 1: Hopefully in the next few months, enough of us are 810 00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:06,040 Speaker 1: going to get vaccinated and we're gonna see the beginning 811 00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:10,520 Speaker 1: of a return to the semblance of a normal life, 812 00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:13,480 Speaker 1: whatever that means anymore. So what is each of you 813 00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:16,919 Speaker 1: looking forward to? Most? And Glenn? And you've already gotten 814 00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:19,080 Speaker 1: your hair done, so you can't you know, you can't 815 00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:21,080 Speaker 1: say that, right. I mean, I know in the in 816 00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:23,920 Speaker 1: the beginning of the pandemic it was I'll follow you 817 00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:27,560 Speaker 1: on Instagram and there was lots of talk about hair. 818 00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:30,680 Speaker 1: And as someone who has both talked about and Ben 819 00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,640 Speaker 1: talked about a lot regarding hair, I think we've covered that. 820 00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:37,480 Speaker 1: So what besides that, what are you both looking forward to? 821 00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:40,120 Speaker 1: I mean, the most honest answer that I can think 822 00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:42,439 Speaker 1: of for that is, I just desperately want to hug 823 00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:46,960 Speaker 1: my mom. Oh where does she live? She lives in Virginia. 824 00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:52,040 Speaker 1: I'm gonna um, I have not seen them since March, 825 00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:56,040 Speaker 1: and um, you know, they haven't seen our kids, and 826 00:47:56,080 --> 00:48:01,799 Speaker 1: they It's just I cannot wait to just hug my 827 00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:05,080 Speaker 1: mom and hug my dad. And I hope that I 828 00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:09,359 Speaker 1: don't forget that. I hope that I remember what it's 829 00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:12,640 Speaker 1: like to not be able to and that I um 830 00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:16,600 Speaker 1: value that more in the after Abby. What about you? 831 00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:20,200 Speaker 1: This is a tough question for me to answer because 832 00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:24,440 Speaker 1: I spend my life basically on the road doing speaking 833 00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:28,120 Speaker 1: events and whatever it is, whatever the heck else I 834 00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:33,840 Speaker 1: do for my work and to earn money. I'm a hustler. Um, 835 00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:37,400 Speaker 1: this time has been so interesting, and I bet you 836 00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:41,239 Speaker 1: you probably would agree Hillary that this is the first 837 00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:45,680 Speaker 1: time my central nervous system has comed itself down to 838 00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:48,680 Speaker 1: a ground at zero because I haven't been able to travel. 839 00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:51,359 Speaker 1: And so as hard as this has been in so 840 00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:54,759 Speaker 1: many ways, this has been in some ways one of 841 00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:57,920 Speaker 1: the greatest gifts that I have ever been handed, and 842 00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:00,480 Speaker 1: I have been I've promised myself to out of this 843 00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:04,520 Speaker 1: whole situation better. Right, So, how can I be more fit? 844 00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:07,400 Speaker 1: How can I get more organized? How can I And 845 00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:09,600 Speaker 1: my wife helps because she starts to clean out the 846 00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:11,719 Speaker 1: garage and then I have to finish the cleaning of 847 00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:16,239 Speaker 1: the garage. Starting finishing. It's hard for me. But I 848 00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:19,120 Speaker 1: think that having said all that, what I would say is, 849 00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:25,560 Speaker 1: I'm excited to go on vacation. I'm with you, girl, 850 00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:27,879 Speaker 1: I'm with you. Where do you want to go? Give 851 00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:30,640 Speaker 1: any any big dreams? I mean, we live in Naples, 852 00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,040 Speaker 1: but I want to go somewhere warm and on a 853 00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:37,280 Speaker 1: beach and somebody to deliver me cold water. Maybe without 854 00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:43,000 Speaker 1: the kids, no kids, kids on vacation, on dogs, no kids, 855 00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:46,080 Speaker 1: no people. Okay, So DM me when you find the 856 00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:50,200 Speaker 1: perfect place. Because I'm more in the go on vacation mode, 857 00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:55,920 Speaker 1: I find myself obsessing over you know, vacation pictures, pictures 858 00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:59,359 Speaker 1: of the most beautiful destination is a little crazy. Last 859 00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:04,320 Speaker 1: January went to Mirror Val in Tucson, Arizona. It's getaway 860 00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:08,719 Speaker 1: destination place and we were setting intentions for we were 861 00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:11,600 Speaker 1: going to crush it. We didn't know that this would 862 00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:15,200 Speaker 1: be the last vacation we ever took. Go and be 863 00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:27,600 Speaker 1: with God. Folks, Amen, Mad, Sister Abbey, Hey Mad. To 864 00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:31,040 Speaker 1: keep up with Abby and Glennon, follow them on social 865 00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:35,520 Speaker 1: media and check out their websites. For Glennon, that's mamas 866 00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:39,879 Speaker 1: Terry dot com, m O M A S T E 867 00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:43,880 Speaker 1: r y dot com and you can find Abbey's website 868 00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:47,920 Speaker 1: at Abbey Wampach w A M B A c h 869 00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:53,040 Speaker 1: dot com. I've thought a lot about doing hard things 870 00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:56,440 Speaker 1: over the last year. My constant hard thing is to 871 00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:59,440 Speaker 1: uh get up and keep going every day and the 872 00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:03,319 Speaker 1: mets of this pandemic, which I'm really getting tired of. 873 00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:06,319 Speaker 1: My friends, you know, I want to travel again. I 874 00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:10,280 Speaker 1: want to eat in a restaurant again, and I'm determined 875 00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:13,399 Speaker 1: that I'm not going to do that until it's absolutely 876 00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:16,719 Speaker 1: safe to get out there. But boy, it's hard. And then, 877 00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:20,879 Speaker 1: of course there were really hard things like standing up 878 00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:27,200 Speaker 1: to continuing racial inequity and waging an election during a 879 00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:32,080 Speaker 1: pandemic and then protecting the outcome of that election. So 880 00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:35,920 Speaker 1: to me, it's even more important that we try to 881 00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:39,400 Speaker 1: do hard things and don't confuse the hard things like 882 00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:43,880 Speaker 1: standing up to racism, standing up for democracy from things 883 00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:47,120 Speaker 1: that are necessary but frankly not that hard, like putting 884 00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:50,560 Speaker 1: on a mask in the middle of a pandemic. I 885 00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:53,920 Speaker 1: would love to hear stories from our listeners about how 886 00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:56,960 Speaker 1: you do hard things or people you know who have 887 00:51:57,040 --> 00:51:59,759 Speaker 1: done hard things and if you want to share a 888 00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:03,239 Speaker 1: st ory, please send an email to You and Me 889 00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:09,240 Speaker 1: Both pod at gmail dot com. You and Me Both 890 00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:13,000 Speaker 1: is brought to you by I Heart Radio. We're produced 891 00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:17,880 Speaker 1: by Julie Subran, Kathleen Russo and Lauren Peterson, with help 892 00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:23,320 Speaker 1: from Juma Aberdeen, Nicky e tour, Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, 893 00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:29,000 Speaker 1: Brianna Johnson, Nick Merrill, Rob Russo, and Lona val Moro. 894 00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:33,960 Speaker 1: Our engineer is Zach McNeice and the original music is 895 00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:37,720 Speaker 1: by Forrest Gray. If you like You and Me Both, 896 00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:41,720 Speaker 1: spread the word, post about it on social media, send 897 00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:44,440 Speaker 1: it to your friends, and make sure to hit the 898 00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:47,960 Speaker 1: subscribe button so you're the first to know when a 899 00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:52,600 Speaker 1: new episode drops. You can do that on I Heart Radio, app, 900 00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:57,839 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you 901 00:52:57,920 --> 00:52:58,439 Speaker 1: next week.