WEBVTT - Episode 1: What’s Wrong with Eric?

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I went to a game with my dad

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<v Speaker 2>and my brother and it was miserable and awful, and

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<v Speaker 2>we're all frustrated and mad.

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<v Speaker 1>Eric Simon's high school math teacher in northern California. Typical

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<v Speaker 1>sports fan in some ways. He fell in love with

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<v Speaker 1>his favorite teams as a little kid after his dad

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<v Speaker 1>took him to some games. Now he's all grown up

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<v Speaker 1>but still going to games.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm riding home. I'm taking bart back across from Berkeley

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<v Speaker 2>into the city on a Saturday night, and I'm sitting

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<v Speaker 2>there and I have like a headache from wearing a

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<v Speaker 2>dumb hat that is like constricted my head for too long,

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<v Speaker 2>and I've been standing in the sun, and i had

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<v Speaker 2>like a miserable dinner, and there's all these people around

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<v Speaker 2>me riding bart in for like a nice night. They're

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<v Speaker 2>dressed up, they're going to bars, they're going to nice restaurants.

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<v Speaker 1>But in one way, Eric was not typical. He was

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<v Speaker 1>starting to ask questions that most sports fans never do.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm just looking at myself and I'm crammed in

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<v Speaker 2>the corner, just feeling like shit, like what the fuck

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<v Speaker 2>is wrong with me? Sorry, I don't know if I

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<v Speaker 2>can swim as you get Oh, we do, yes, What

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<v Speaker 2>is wrong with me? Why am I sitting here in

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<v Speaker 2>the corner of a bart train, sweat stained and smelling.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm like eight thirty on a Saturday night, when everybody

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<v Speaker 2>else is leading such a pleasant, normal life around me,

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<v Speaker 2>And I think I just felt that, like, like, why

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<v Speaker 2>do all of us do this so much? Why do

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<v Speaker 2>we do this to ourselves?

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<v Speaker 1>He was on that train around twenty ten. Eric teaches math,

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<v Speaker 1>but Eric also writes the thought crossed his mind. Maybe

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<v Speaker 1>I should write about this. Maybe I should figure out

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<v Speaker 1>what's wrong with me, because someone needs to.

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<v Speaker 2>I was very naive at this point. I was a

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<v Speaker 2>science writer. I wrote mostly about scientists, and I thought,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I'll go find a scientist, and a scientist

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<v Speaker 2>will answer it for me, because that's sort of what

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<v Speaker 2>I did. I'd have a question and I'd find an expert,

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<v Speaker 2>and the expert would say, oh, yeah, this. I honestly

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<v Speaker 2>sort of thought, you know, there's some guys studies sports

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<v Speaker 2>fans at Harvard and they'll say, yeah, there's this little

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<v Speaker 2>part of your brain there, and if you nuke that sucker,

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<v Speaker 2>you'd be healthy again.

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<v Speaker 1>If only it were that easy. I'm Michael Lewis, and

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<v Speaker 1>this is against the rules. Each season we've taken a

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<v Speaker 1>character in American life who also happens to be a

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<v Speaker 1>character in American sports. The referee, the coach, the expert.

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<v Speaker 1>These characters have changed, their roles, have evolved in ways

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<v Speaker 1>that tell us not just about sports, but about the

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<v Speaker 1>world we live in. This season, the character will be

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<v Speaker 1>exploring is the fan. Being a fan is less a

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<v Speaker 1>role than an emotional state. And that emotional state hasn't

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<v Speaker 1>changed much since the fifth century BC, when Greeks hollered

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<v Speaker 1>at other Greeks racing chariots. What's changing is how that

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<v Speaker 1>emotional state can be exploited. That's a huge deal because

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<v Speaker 1>it's shaping our society in all sorts of ways. This

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<v Speaker 1>fact has been staring me in the face for the

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<v Speaker 1>longest time. Now, I'm thinking right now, when I was

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<v Speaker 1>writing Moneyball, that book was about a baseball team with

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<v Speaker 1>no money, the Oakland A's figuring out that the other

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<v Speaker 1>baseball teams were behaving irrationally and exploiting that they sparked

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<v Speaker 1>a revolution not just in sports, but in business, in politics,

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<v Speaker 1>and all sorts of other things. Even now, you can't

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<v Speaker 1>help but wonder why Oakland. Why did this world changing

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<v Speaker 1>event occur inside this baseball team with not too many

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<v Speaker 1>fans and no money. So few fans and so little

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<v Speaker 1>money that the Oakland A's are as I speak, packing

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<v Speaker 1>up their bags and on their way to Las Vegas

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<v Speaker 1>in search of more fans and more money. Back when

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<v Speaker 1>the Oakland A's were inventing moneyball, their lack of resources

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<v Speaker 1>was obviously important. It forced the A's management to think

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<v Speaker 1>differently to compete with the teams with more money. But

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<v Speaker 1>another explanation was the Oakland fan or his absence. Back

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<v Speaker 1>when I was writing the book, the Oakland management said

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<v Speaker 1>this thing over and over. We are so lucky. We

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<v Speaker 1>don't have a big, noisy fan base paying much attention

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<v Speaker 1>to what we do. The Oakland's front office didn't have

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<v Speaker 1>this loud mob hollering at them to do the same

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<v Speaker 1>stupid stuff that the other baseball people were doing. They

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<v Speaker 1>weren't being egged on by their fans and by their

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<v Speaker 1>local media in the same way that say, the Yankees

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<v Speaker 1>or the Red Sox were a lot of people who

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<v Speaker 1>manage baseball teams were effectively playing craps to impress the

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<v Speaker 1>crowd around the table. The Oakland management was off quietly

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<v Speaker 1>counting cards at the blackjack table. They could ignore fan

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<v Speaker 1>emotion and rid themselves of fan biases, and that was

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<v Speaker 1>just a huge tactical advantage. A weird sort of combat

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<v Speaker 1>line runs through the modern economy. That's what this entire

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<v Speaker 1>season is really about, the gap between the people who

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<v Speaker 1>count cards and the people who don't even realize the

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<v Speaker 1>cards can be counted. Either you're one of these smart

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<v Speaker 1>people able to measure and analyze and calculate probabilities and

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<v Speaker 1>place your bets as rationally as possible, or you are

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<v Speaker 1>their prey.

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<v Speaker 2>A fan, so you know, just like Google, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>sports fan researchers.

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<v Speaker 1>Yep.

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<v Speaker 2>And to be honest, not that much comes up. And

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<v Speaker 2>it's like, well, why is that?

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<v Speaker 1>I definitely have a weak spot for writers who come

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<v Speaker 1>along and point out something important that's just been sitting

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<v Speaker 1>there forever unnoticed. Fifteen years ago, Eric Simons did just that.

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<v Speaker 1>He noticed how weirdly he behaved as a fan, his irrationality,

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<v Speaker 1>how unhappy it could make him. He asked, what's the

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<v Speaker 1>matter with me?

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<v Speaker 2>This is a thing that is you know, billions of

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<v Speaker 2>dollars and everyone does it, and it's true across culture

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<v Speaker 2>is like, why isn't there this, you know, the Institute

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<v Speaker 2>for the Study of Sports Fans at every university on

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<v Speaker 2>the planet, and so you know, I started started there.

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<v Speaker 1>They're all too busy going to the football games, right,

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<v Speaker 1>That's why there's a lot.

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<v Speaker 2>Of truth to that.

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<v Speaker 1>Eric Simon set out to find someone, anyone who could

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<v Speaker 1>help him to explain the weird things his mind was doing,

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<v Speaker 1>and back then, if you did that, you eventually ended

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<v Speaker 1>up meeting Dan Juan. I can't figure out, for dramatic purposes,

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<v Speaker 1>whether it's better to call you Professor Waller Dan.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I I will leave that up to you.

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<v Speaker 4>The only thing I care about is what my grand

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<v Speaker 4>shaw calls me Dan Dan. Beyond that, I really don't

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<v Speaker 4>really there.

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<v Speaker 1>Danje is a psychology professor at Murray State University in

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<v Speaker 1>Western Kentucky. Professor one's kind of great because it's the

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<v Speaker 1>professor of something that nobody else is a professor of.

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<v Speaker 1>Sor Dan or his students have written some huge number

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<v Speaker 1>of serious academic articles with titles like is there really

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<v Speaker 1>no Crying in Baseball? Examining the acceptance of crying in sport?

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<v Speaker 1>And feeling suck and so does your team, exploring the

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<v Speaker 1>link between restrictive emotionality and dysfunctional fandom. But for a

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<v Speaker 1>long time, as far as Dan knew, he was the

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<v Speaker 1>world's only full time sports fan researcher. He invented the

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<v Speaker 1>field by accident. As a graduate student back in nineteen

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<v Speaker 1>eighty seven. On the first day of class, his professor

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<v Speaker 1>gave him a homework assignment find some testable hypothesis about

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<v Speaker 1>human behavior. He'd gone home and watched Sports Center instead.

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<v Speaker 1>There were only two students in Dan's class, and when

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<v Speaker 1>it was time to present, the professor called on Dan. First.

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<v Speaker 4>I had one hundred percent forgotten about the assignment. I

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<v Speaker 4>am now just making cramp up as I go along,

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<v Speaker 4>and I said, well, I think there had been this

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<v Speaker 4>story on the sports and about a soccer rise. Well,

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<v Speaker 4>I think that if an individual is really highly identified

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<v Speaker 4>psychologic connected to their sports team, they're probably more likely

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<v Speaker 4>to get violent when they're watching the team.

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<v Speaker 3>If things don't work.

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<v Speaker 1>Out on the spot, Dan cooks up his testable hypothesis.

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<v Speaker 1>He believes the sports fans most likely to start fights

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<v Speaker 1>after a loss are the sports fans most devoted to

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<v Speaker 1>that team. This hypothesis will be a breeze to test.

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<v Speaker 1>He thinks, surely someone in the world of psychology has

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<v Speaker 1>already looked into it.

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<v Speaker 2>When you go.

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<v Speaker 5>Back and you look back at people who've studied fans,

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<v Speaker 5>what do you find a random study or two on

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<v Speaker 5>fan viol And if you ever found anybody who wrote

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<v Speaker 5>like an opinion or an essay about sport fandom, they

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<v Speaker 5>all just slammed it.

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<v Speaker 4>Everybody loves sport except for the you know, the eggheads

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<v Speaker 4>are actually studying sport.

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<v Speaker 1>So Dan designs his own study. He discovers, to his surprise,

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<v Speaker 1>that there's little correlation between fans devotion to their teams

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<v Speaker 1>and their willingness to punch people. He starts to look

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<v Speaker 1>further into the lives of dedicated fans.

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<v Speaker 3>Sports fans are more politically active than non sports fans.

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<v Speaker 3>They're more likely to go museums and non sports fans.

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<v Speaker 4>They're more likely to play sports, they're more likely to

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<v Speaker 4>go to the theater, They're more likely to donate.

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<v Speaker 3>They're also more likely to have higher GPAs.

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<v Speaker 2>So they're not lazy.

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<v Speaker 3>No, they're not.

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<v Speaker 4>Now again, okay, some are right, I mean, they gotta

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<v Speaker 4>always admit right that they're out there.

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<v Speaker 3>But no, the vast majority are are quite involved.

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<v Speaker 2>Now.

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<v Speaker 1>Obviously all fans aren't the same. There are nuances here,

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<v Speaker 1>and Dan one began to explore them. What began with

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<v Speaker 1>a forgotten homework assignment became a stream of published papers, the.

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<v Speaker 4>Reviews, and the response I got from academics and journals,

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<v Speaker 4>and that the media was so positive that I just

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<v Speaker 4>basically scuttled everything else and decided to just study this.

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<v Speaker 3>For thirty five years.

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<v Speaker 1>It's kind of odd if you think about it. Basically

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<v Speaker 1>no one else wanted to study sports fans, but lots

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<v Speaker 1>of people, even people who ran serious academic journals, were

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<v Speaker 1>curious about them.

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<v Speaker 4>It's this social category where the editors and their reviewers

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<v Speaker 4>there's a decent chance, no guarantee, there's a decent chance

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<v Speaker 4>that they're sports fans, and they're like, yeah, why in

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<v Speaker 4>the world am I doing this.

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<v Speaker 1>It's that same question again, and no one's answering it.

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<v Speaker 4>People are so curious as to why it is such

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<v Speaker 4>a large chunk of the population will dedicate such time

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<v Speaker 4>and money and love and desire and emotion and sadness

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<v Speaker 4>and whatever you know to this voluntary activity. Right, no

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<v Speaker 4>one's like twisting their arm and making them go do

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<v Speaker 4>this and they have very very little, if any, controlled

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<v Speaker 4>over the outcome.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, you can't find another place in society where

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<v Speaker 3>that's the case, right.

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<v Speaker 4>Where people care so much about something and they walk

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<v Speaker 4>in going, yeah, you know, there's about a fifty to

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<v Speaker 4>fifty chance that I'm gonna hate this at the end

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<v Speaker 4>of consuming it.

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<v Speaker 3>I can't control the outcome. Let's go.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's go back to nineteen eighty seven is a starting point,

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<v Speaker 1>the year danjan forgot his homework and stumbled into a career.

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<v Speaker 1>In nineteen eighty seven, the highest rated TV program in

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<v Speaker 1>the United States, according to Nielsen research, was The Cosby Show,

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<v Speaker 1>followed by a Different World, Cheers and The Golden Girls.

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<v Speaker 1>Only one of the top thirty TV shows in nineteen

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<v Speaker 1>eighty seven had anything to do with sports. Monday Night

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<v Speaker 1>Football came in sixteenth. TV's changed a lot since nineteen

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<v Speaker 1>eighty seven. In twenty twenty three, ninety three of the

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<v Speaker 1>one hundred most watched broadcasts in the United States were

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<v Speaker 1>sporting events. Twenty NFL games drew bigger crowds than the

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<v Speaker 1>State of the Union address, fifty eight NFL games, and

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<v Speaker 1>one college football game had more viewers than the oscars.

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<v Speaker 1>Only when you get to the second hundred most watched

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<v Speaker 1>TV shows, does football start to get some competition from

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<v Speaker 1>basketball and baseball, pro golf and the Kentucky Derby. There's

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<v Speaker 1>no longer any question of whether sports and sports fans

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<v Speaker 1>are central to our culture. The question is does our

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<v Speaker 1>culture have a center without them?

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<v Speaker 6>What about the fans? What about the fan?

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<v Speaker 1>Andrew Brant runs the Center for Sport Sorts Law at

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<v Speaker 1>Villanova University, but before that he spent a decade running

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<v Speaker 1>the business end of the Green Bay Packers.

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<v Speaker 6>And I feel for the fan because listen, I cover business,

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<v Speaker 6>and in these business negotiations between leagues and players, associations,

0:13:27.476 --> 0:13:32.876
<v Speaker 6>media networks and leagues, municipalities and teams about stadiums and

0:13:32.996 --> 0:13:37.396
<v Speaker 6>taxpayer money, the fans are not party, right, There's no

0:13:37.556 --> 0:13:42.356
<v Speaker 6>negotiation where well, let's see what the fan thinks.

0:13:41.996 --> 0:13:42.156
<v Speaker 5>Right.

0:13:42.756 --> 0:13:46.316
<v Speaker 6>So I understand sports is fun and games, and I

0:13:46.356 --> 0:13:50.236
<v Speaker 6>tell my students all the time, but it's not at

0:13:50.236 --> 0:13:53.036
<v Speaker 6>this level. It's not. It's a business, and it's a

0:13:53.076 --> 0:13:56.916
<v Speaker 6>cold business. You see players shipped out left and right.

0:13:56.996 --> 0:14:00.916
<v Speaker 6>You see fans kind of a pawn in the process,

0:14:01.556 --> 0:14:05.596
<v Speaker 6>but they keep coming back, They keep coming back.

0:14:06.276 --> 0:14:09.756
<v Speaker 1>It's such an alluring product that the dollar doesn't have

0:14:09.796 --> 0:14:11.956
<v Speaker 1>to pay much attention to the interests of the buyer.

0:14:12.796 --> 0:14:17.476
<v Speaker 6>Well, they come back despite despite prices rising, despite cable

0:14:17.476 --> 0:14:21.516
<v Speaker 6>bills rising, despite all those things. If there was a

0:14:21.556 --> 0:14:26.516
<v Speaker 6>breaking point where fans say that I've had enough, maybe

0:14:27.036 --> 0:14:33.956
<v Speaker 6>prices would change, maybe availability would change. We just don't know, but.

0:14:33.876 --> 0:14:37.316
<v Speaker 1>We sort of do know. Booming ticket prices, teams jumping

0:14:37.316 --> 0:14:40.436
<v Speaker 1>around from city to city, players jumping around from team

0:14:40.476 --> 0:14:44.396
<v Speaker 1>to team, college sports becoming a raw money grab. People

0:14:44.476 --> 0:14:47.236
<v Speaker 1>used to say that greedy capitalism would kill fan interest,

0:14:47.316 --> 0:14:49.156
<v Speaker 1>but not a chance. No matter what you do to

0:14:49.196 --> 0:14:51.516
<v Speaker 1>the fan, or to his team or to his sport,

0:14:52.156 --> 0:14:54.916
<v Speaker 1>he's been willing to take it and come back for more.

0:14:55.916 --> 0:14:58.036
<v Speaker 1>The Green Bay Packers are the only pro sports teams

0:14:58.036 --> 0:15:00.876
<v Speaker 1>that's owned by their fans, and so they publish their

0:15:00.876 --> 0:15:05.156
<v Speaker 1>financial results. Andrew Brent knows this better than anyone. The Packers'

0:15:05.156 --> 0:15:09.036
<v Speaker 1>finances over time show you the dollar value of fan interest.

0:15:10.436 --> 0:15:13.876
<v Speaker 6>So think about gross revenues, right. Gross revenues when I

0:15:13.916 --> 0:15:17.916
<v Speaker 6>got there in nineteen ninety nine were about two hundred million.

0:15:18.436 --> 0:15:21.356
<v Speaker 6>By the time I left in two thousand and nine,

0:15:22.276 --> 0:15:25.436
<v Speaker 6>Packers had revenues of four hundred and fifty million dollars,

0:15:25.796 --> 0:15:28.276
<v Speaker 6>so more than double that amount in a decade.

0:15:29.476 --> 0:15:31.796
<v Speaker 1>Back in nineteen eighty seven, the Packers, if they could

0:15:31.876 --> 0:15:35.076
<v Speaker 1>legally be sold, could have been bought for roughly ninety

0:15:35.076 --> 0:15:39.116
<v Speaker 1>million dollars. Forbes now values the team at five point

0:15:39.236 --> 0:15:43.436
<v Speaker 1>six billion. The Packers didn't publish their players' salaries back

0:15:43.436 --> 0:15:45.996
<v Speaker 1>in nineteen eighty seven. They weren't that interesting, but no

0:15:46.036 --> 0:15:49.356
<v Speaker 1>one made more than six figures. Last year, the team's

0:15:49.436 --> 0:15:54.476
<v Speaker 1>left tackle made twenty one point three million dollars. Who's

0:15:54.556 --> 0:15:57.916
<v Speaker 1>ultimately paying for all this the fans, of course, through

0:15:57.956 --> 0:16:01.956
<v Speaker 1>ticket sales, through cable bills, through less tangible ways like

0:16:02.116 --> 0:16:05.636
<v Speaker 1>taxes and viewership. There is a word for people who

0:16:05.676 --> 0:16:08.516
<v Speaker 1>pay more and more for the same product, and who

0:16:08.516 --> 0:16:11.316
<v Speaker 1>will continue to pay more and more no matter how

0:16:11.396 --> 0:16:14.156
<v Speaker 1>badly it makes them feel. Addict.

0:16:17.196 --> 0:16:20.756
<v Speaker 4>I have spent the better part of three and a

0:16:20.836 --> 0:16:24.276
<v Speaker 4>half decades studying how sports fans cope with losses.

0:16:24.996 --> 0:16:28.836
<v Speaker 1>Professor Dan Wan again, the world's first sports fan researcher.

0:16:29.636 --> 0:16:32.396
<v Speaker 5>All, it's like, give me a little toolbox, give me

0:16:32.436 --> 0:16:33.436
<v Speaker 5>the toolbox for coping.

0:16:33.636 --> 0:16:38.116
<v Speaker 4>Okay, So, first of all, sports fans are great at

0:16:38.156 --> 0:16:44.956
<v Speaker 4>seeing the past through incredibly rose colored glasses. Right, So

0:16:46.116 --> 0:16:49.716
<v Speaker 4>you ask people, okay, ten years ago, how many games

0:16:49.716 --> 0:16:50.716
<v Speaker 4>did your team win?

0:16:51.436 --> 0:16:53.716
<v Speaker 3>They actually will overestimate that.

0:16:54.476 --> 0:16:58.076
<v Speaker 1>Coping strategy Number one for the addict, you ignore the facts,

0:16:58.436 --> 0:17:02.476
<v Speaker 1>you rewrite history, so whatever actually happened becomes what you

0:17:02.556 --> 0:17:03.396
<v Speaker 1>wish had happened.

0:17:04.396 --> 0:17:07.556
<v Speaker 4>They also had a sendency to see the future as

0:17:07.596 --> 0:17:10.876
<v Speaker 4>being prettier than it's probably gonna be. So we like

0:17:11.436 --> 0:17:16.516
<v Speaker 4>construct our reality based on the fact our team's not

0:17:16.596 --> 0:17:18.996
<v Speaker 4>doing well now, but man, it was so great before,

0:17:19.036 --> 0:17:19.996
<v Speaker 4>and man it's gonna.

0:17:19.836 --> 0:17:20.836
<v Speaker 3>Be so great in the future.

0:17:21.036 --> 0:17:24.636
<v Speaker 4>Every crappy NFL team, well, all the fan bases to

0:17:24.636 --> 0:17:27.116
<v Speaker 4>talk about next year's draft. That's what they always talk about,

0:17:27.156 --> 0:17:28.356
<v Speaker 4>because we're gonna have a good pick.

0:17:28.876 --> 0:17:33.916
<v Speaker 1>Coping Strategy Number two and active Fantasy life. Whatever just happened,

0:17:34.116 --> 0:17:37.316
<v Speaker 1>it doesn't matter because it has no bearing on what

0:17:37.396 --> 0:17:37.956
<v Speaker 1>will happen.

0:17:38.676 --> 0:17:41.836
<v Speaker 4>Another thing that fans do is they will find a

0:17:41.876 --> 0:17:47.756
<v Speaker 4>way to move the cause off of the team and

0:17:47.876 --> 0:17:49.036
<v Speaker 4>onto some other entity.

0:17:49.476 --> 0:17:51.596
<v Speaker 3>It was the ref's fault.

0:17:52.036 --> 0:17:57.036
<v Speaker 1>Coping strategy Number three, my personal favorite. We were robbed,

0:17:57.796 --> 0:18:02.876
<v Speaker 1>the game was stolen, rigged. It's all rigged. The fans

0:18:02.916 --> 0:18:06.396
<v Speaker 1>need to believe is so powerful that it warps reality.

0:18:06.556 --> 0:18:10.956
<v Speaker 1>You never need to change your belief, which brings us

0:18:10.996 --> 0:18:14.556
<v Speaker 1>to the weird stuff. Dan loves the weird stuff.

0:18:15.556 --> 0:18:19.636
<v Speaker 3>One person said that his superstition was that when watching

0:18:19.676 --> 0:18:22.396
<v Speaker 3>his favorite team on TV, he had to go up

0:18:22.436 --> 0:18:25.076
<v Speaker 3>to the opposing team's free throw shooter and put his

0:18:25.236 --> 0:18:30.316
<v Speaker 3>hand over that person's eyes to distract him on the TV.

0:18:31.516 --> 0:18:32.276
<v Speaker 3>On the TV.

0:18:32.836 --> 0:18:35.356
<v Speaker 4>This is a person who is getting a master's degree

0:18:35.356 --> 0:18:38.036
<v Speaker 4>from our psychology program.

0:18:38.196 --> 0:18:38.676
<v Speaker 2>Here's the thing.

0:18:38.716 --> 0:18:41.196
<v Speaker 4>Not only I mean I have to rub I have

0:18:41.316 --> 0:18:44.756
<v Speaker 4>to rub my favorite pack of baseball cards on my cat.

0:18:44.836 --> 0:18:47.556
<v Speaker 4>I have to light incense to the Buddha out back.

0:18:47.756 --> 0:18:50.276
<v Speaker 4>We can't let mom in the room because she's bad luck.

0:18:50.316 --> 0:18:53.956
<v Speaker 4>But here's the thing, Michael, here's the thing. We asked

0:18:53.996 --> 0:18:57.436
<v Speaker 4>him on a one to eight scale, one not at

0:18:57.516 --> 0:19:02.636
<v Speaker 4>all eight hundred percent, how convinced are you that your

0:19:02.676 --> 0:19:05.836
<v Speaker 4>superstitions impact the outcome of the sporting event?

0:19:06.436 --> 0:19:08.436
<v Speaker 3>And the average score was about five.

0:19:09.156 --> 0:19:13.356
<v Speaker 4>Think about that. These are educated people, right, and were like, well,

0:19:14.156 --> 0:19:16.356
<v Speaker 4>are you gonna stop? Well, I know it's silly, but

0:19:16.436 --> 0:19:17.036
<v Speaker 4>I still.

0:19:16.836 --> 0:19:17.436
<v Speaker 3>Have to do it.

0:19:18.516 --> 0:19:21.916
<v Speaker 1>This isn't just people doing obviously dumb shit. It's people

0:19:22.036 --> 0:19:26.236
<v Speaker 1>capable of knowing they're doing dumb shit and somehow still

0:19:26.276 --> 0:19:27.636
<v Speaker 1>refusing to know it.

0:19:28.436 --> 0:19:31.556
<v Speaker 3>We had one person he actually did his own study

0:19:31.596 --> 0:19:35.076
<v Speaker 3>with this lucky Saint Louis Cardinals' hat, where he kept

0:19:35.116 --> 0:19:36.916
<v Speaker 3>track for a whole season of how many they won

0:19:36.996 --> 0:19:38.676
<v Speaker 3>when he wore the hat and how many they won

0:19:38.756 --> 0:19:39.316
<v Speaker 3>when he didn't.

0:19:39.436 --> 0:19:42.156
<v Speaker 4>And he showed us this is scientific. Now, this is scientific.

0:19:42.316 --> 0:19:44.476
<v Speaker 4>He showed us how they had a better winning percent.

0:19:44.556 --> 0:19:45.636
<v Speaker 4>So now he asked to wear the.

0:19:45.596 --> 0:19:53.836
<v Speaker 1>Hat, warping reality, blaming others, embracing superstitions, all to cope

0:19:53.876 --> 0:19:58.756
<v Speaker 1>with a very basic situation that you can't control all

0:19:58.796 --> 0:20:08.276
<v Speaker 1>symptoms of fandom. All right, let's get back to Eric

0:20:08.316 --> 0:20:10.996
<v Speaker 1>Simon's the math teacher and science writer who was on

0:20:11.076 --> 0:20:14.316
<v Speaker 1>the Bart train after his team lost, wondering what was

0:20:14.356 --> 0:20:17.596
<v Speaker 1>wrong with him. You established pretty quickly there was not

0:20:17.756 --> 0:20:20.956
<v Speaker 1>some part of your brain that was responsible for this, right,

0:20:21.436 --> 0:20:24.996
<v Speaker 1>It's all your brain. Eric eventually writes an entire book

0:20:25.036 --> 0:20:27.076
<v Speaker 1>about all of this, It's called The Secret Lives of

0:20:27.116 --> 0:20:29.716
<v Speaker 1>Sports Fans. Trying to figure out what's underneath all the

0:20:29.716 --> 0:20:34.156
<v Speaker 1>weird behavior, Eric winds up talking to neurologists and psychologists

0:20:34.236 --> 0:20:36.556
<v Speaker 1>people had learned all kinds of interesting stuff about the

0:20:36.636 --> 0:20:39.476
<v Speaker 1>human brain, but hadn't thought to apply it to the

0:20:39.476 --> 0:20:40.636
<v Speaker 1>brains of sports fans.

0:20:42.116 --> 0:20:45.596
<v Speaker 2>This is what our hormones do when we're working against

0:20:45.636 --> 0:20:50.676
<v Speaker 2>other people. This is what we do when we're in groups.

0:20:50.236 --> 0:20:53.756
<v Speaker 2>It's affecting your judgments. I think people talk about this

0:20:53.836 --> 0:20:56.756
<v Speaker 2>more in a societal context than a sports fan context.

0:20:56.756 --> 0:21:01.156
<v Speaker 2>But like a basic example, there's cameras everywhere, there's slow

0:21:01.196 --> 0:21:03.796
<v Speaker 2>mo instant replay everywhere. Why is it that with like

0:21:03.876 --> 0:21:08.196
<v Speaker 2>nineteen different instant replays people divide, They get more convinced

0:21:08.396 --> 0:21:10.796
<v Speaker 2>I'm right, the other guys are wrong. How can you

0:21:10.796 --> 0:21:14.316
<v Speaker 2>show two people video clips in super slow motion and

0:21:14.356 --> 0:21:18.116
<v Speaker 2>they still disagree about what happened? Is because, like this

0:21:18.196 --> 0:21:23.276
<v Speaker 2>whole enterprise is challenging your perception. It's changing what you see.

0:21:25.076 --> 0:21:28.276
<v Speaker 1>It's changing what you see. So we not only tolerate,

0:21:28.436 --> 0:21:32.316
<v Speaker 1>but actively pursue interests that lead us to warp reality.

0:21:32.476 --> 0:21:35.596
<v Speaker 1>But what purpose does that serve? One answer that Eric

0:21:35.636 --> 0:21:38.676
<v Speaker 1>found had been supplied long ago by a Polish social

0:21:38.756 --> 0:21:43.436
<v Speaker 1>psychologist named Henry Tagfel. Tagfell had his own curious journey

0:21:43.476 --> 0:21:44.156
<v Speaker 1>to the subject.

0:21:45.116 --> 0:21:49.076
<v Speaker 2>He is Jewish in the nineteen twenties. Nineteen thirties, then

0:21:49.116 --> 0:21:52.796
<v Speaker 2>moves to France just before the start of World War Two.

0:21:53.276 --> 0:21:56.636
<v Speaker 2>He volunteers for the French army he has captured. He

0:21:56.716 --> 0:21:58.996
<v Speaker 2>goes home to Poland after the war and finds out

0:21:59.036 --> 0:22:01.356
<v Speaker 2>that most of his friends and family have been killed,

0:22:01.996 --> 0:22:05.596
<v Speaker 2>and this sort of sets him on this course of

0:22:05.636 --> 0:22:10.516
<v Speaker 2>trying to understand why do people do this? Where do

0:22:10.876 --> 0:22:15.836
<v Speaker 2>these divisions in societies come from, Where does prejudice come from?

0:22:17.396 --> 0:22:20.556
<v Speaker 2>Why do people have this ability to turn against each

0:22:20.556 --> 0:22:24.436
<v Speaker 2>other in such a way to stop recognizing each other's humanity.

0:22:25.596 --> 0:22:28.676
<v Speaker 1>Cag Pellat survived the war only because he'd become identified

0:22:28.716 --> 0:22:32.156
<v Speaker 1>with a group to which he didn't really belong French soldiers,

0:22:32.716 --> 0:22:36.676
<v Speaker 1>rather than to the one he did Polish Jews. He

0:22:36.716 --> 0:22:39.396
<v Speaker 1>wanted to study the power of groups, and so he

0:22:39.436 --> 0:22:43.996
<v Speaker 1>started by taking his students and just dividing them in two.

0:22:43.156 --> 0:22:46.756
<v Speaker 2>And one of his principal findings, which is called minimal

0:22:46.796 --> 0:22:51.516
<v Speaker 2>group theory, is that doesn't have to matter the differences

0:22:51.556 --> 0:22:54.996
<v Speaker 2>between the groups, that you could be divided into groups

0:22:55.636 --> 0:23:01.076
<v Speaker 2>incredibly arbitrarily. He divided kids, mostly schoolboys in his studies

0:23:01.596 --> 0:23:05.436
<v Speaker 2>into groups on the basis of flipping a coin, and

0:23:05.476 --> 0:23:10.996
<v Speaker 2>what he found and what collaborators found is that just

0:23:11.076 --> 0:23:13.196
<v Speaker 2>that arbitrary division you guys are over here, you guys

0:23:13.196 --> 0:23:17.876
<v Speaker 2>are over here, is enough to then produce pretty significant

0:23:18.556 --> 0:23:20.916
<v Speaker 2>differences in how those groups behave toward each other. For

0:23:20.996 --> 0:23:22.956
<v Speaker 2>no other reason than we said, you're in that one

0:23:22.996 --> 0:23:23.716
<v Speaker 2>and you're in that one.

0:23:24.116 --> 0:23:26.836
<v Speaker 1>So much shallower than the difference between the Chiefs and

0:23:26.876 --> 0:23:27.476
<v Speaker 1>the Bengals.

0:23:27.676 --> 0:23:30.436
<v Speaker 2>Then yeah, I mean, these were all kids from the

0:23:30.436 --> 0:23:33.476
<v Speaker 2>same school, they're you know, all sort of the same age.

0:23:33.556 --> 0:23:37.116
<v Speaker 2>They are a pretty homogeneous group. You put someone in

0:23:37.156 --> 0:23:38.716
<v Speaker 2>a group and you tell them you're in this group,

0:23:38.756 --> 0:23:41.916
<v Speaker 2>and your identity becomes I'm part of this group.

0:23:43.596 --> 0:23:46.596
<v Speaker 1>This is my place. I belong here with these other

0:23:46.636 --> 0:23:50.276
<v Speaker 1>people like me. That feeling, once I have it is

0:23:50.316 --> 0:23:52.716
<v Speaker 1>so powerful it will cause me to organize all my

0:23:52.796 --> 0:23:57.436
<v Speaker 1>beliefs and perceptions around it. It'll dictate my reality.

0:23:58.876 --> 0:24:02.076
<v Speaker 2>If we all have these sort of biases, you know,

0:24:02.116 --> 0:24:06.596
<v Speaker 2>and you see them expressed so neatly in sports, then

0:24:06.636 --> 0:24:08.676
<v Speaker 2>maybe sports is a way to look at sort of

0:24:08.716 --> 0:24:11.396
<v Speaker 2>slowly unraveling them, which is where I started to look

0:24:11.436 --> 0:24:14.316
<v Speaker 2>at these questions about you know, like why doesn't instant

0:24:14.356 --> 0:24:17.476
<v Speaker 2>replay change anyone's mind? And you know what do you

0:24:17.596 --> 0:24:23.316
<v Speaker 2>need to to like make a friend from across the aisle.

0:24:26.836 --> 0:24:30.036
<v Speaker 2>You know, where where could you find that sort of

0:24:30.036 --> 0:24:31.316
<v Speaker 2>harmonious utopia?

0:24:32.436 --> 0:24:36.556
<v Speaker 1>Not in Philadelphia, But that's why it's.

0:24:36.356 --> 0:24:39.196
<v Speaker 2>So so interesting to look at where where has it

0:24:39.236 --> 0:24:42.716
<v Speaker 2>ever existed? So finding that line, which involves sort of

0:24:42.836 --> 0:24:46.956
<v Speaker 2>changing our own our own perception and changing the perception

0:24:46.996 --> 0:24:50.116
<v Speaker 2>of other people, that sort of that became the big question.

0:24:51.276 --> 0:24:54.756
<v Speaker 1>You'll notice that Eric changed his question. When he started

0:24:54.756 --> 0:24:57.716
<v Speaker 1>he was asking what the hell's wrong with me? By

0:24:57.716 --> 0:25:00.596
<v Speaker 1>the end, he's asking why can't human beings, once they

0:25:00.636 --> 0:25:03.156
<v Speaker 1>identify with some group, see the world as it is

0:25:03.316 --> 0:25:06.236
<v Speaker 1>rather than as they'd like it to be. Why are

0:25:06.276 --> 0:25:08.996
<v Speaker 1>they even less inclined than usual to respond to fact

0:25:09.396 --> 0:25:12.516
<v Speaker 1>and to stats and more inclined to be swayed by

0:25:12.516 --> 0:25:16.396
<v Speaker 1>some story in their heads? Why can't they see that

0:25:16.436 --> 0:25:20.956
<v Speaker 1>the odds are against them? This new question is obviously bigger,

0:25:20.996 --> 0:25:24.876
<v Speaker 1>maybe even better than Eric's original one, but it leaves

0:25:24.916 --> 0:25:26.996
<v Speaker 1>the original one just kind of hanging there.

0:25:28.276 --> 0:25:31.916
<v Speaker 2>I started because I felt like there was something wrong

0:25:31.956 --> 0:25:34.196
<v Speaker 2>with me, and I think I ended up feeling like, well,

0:25:34.436 --> 0:25:37.716
<v Speaker 2>maybe this is more normal than it feels. This is

0:25:37.836 --> 0:25:40.436
<v Speaker 2>just sort of part of being human. That is just

0:25:40.516 --> 0:25:43.236
<v Speaker 2>weird to be a person sometimes, and that sports fans

0:25:43.316 --> 0:25:46.276
<v Speaker 2>is one part of being weird as a person. But

0:25:46.356 --> 0:25:48.356
<v Speaker 2>it has its moments of sweetness, and it has its

0:25:48.396 --> 0:25:51.276
<v Speaker 2>moments of joy as well as it has its moments

0:25:51.276 --> 0:25:53.676
<v Speaker 2>of what the fuck, this is the dumbest thing? Why

0:25:53.676 --> 0:25:56.236
<v Speaker 2>do I do it? And that all that together, I mean,

0:25:56.476 --> 0:25:58.956
<v Speaker 2>that is the package of being alive. And you accept

0:25:58.996 --> 0:26:01.916
<v Speaker 2>it in this context the same way you accepted everywhere else.

0:26:02.876 --> 0:26:04.996
<v Speaker 1>Eric Simons sort of hoped that he might study his

0:26:05.076 --> 0:26:08.116
<v Speaker 1>way out of fandom. He wound up giving up on

0:26:08.196 --> 0:26:11.516
<v Speaker 1>that and just coming to terms with it. There was

0:26:11.556 --> 0:26:14.996
<v Speaker 1>no magic pill to take. There was just this powerful

0:26:15.036 --> 0:26:18.796
<v Speaker 1>force inside him, a force that shapes not just sports

0:26:18.836 --> 0:26:21.956
<v Speaker 1>but lots of other stuff, A force that steam rolls

0:26:21.996 --> 0:26:33.556
<v Speaker 1>over facts in search of feeling. But this powerful force

0:26:33.556 --> 0:26:35.836
<v Speaker 1>that's inside of us. What happens if it can be

0:26:35.876 --> 0:26:40.076
<v Speaker 1>exploited in new ways. What happens if like technology changes,

0:26:40.116 --> 0:26:43.836
<v Speaker 1>their laws change so that it could be monetized, almost

0:26:43.876 --> 0:26:47.436
<v Speaker 1>like a natural resource. What if you can frack the fan?

0:26:48.476 --> 0:26:50.636
<v Speaker 1>That's where we're going with this season against the rules,

0:26:50.636 --> 0:26:54.716
<v Speaker 1>because the fracking it's already happening right under our noses.

0:26:58.876 --> 0:27:02.516
<v Speaker 6>This isn't fantasy as usually, this is Draft Kicks. It

0:27:02.596 --> 0:27:04.516
<v Speaker 6>was one of these things like, wow, we never get

0:27:04.516 --> 0:27:06.756
<v Speaker 6>this lucky. I mean this changed everything.

0:27:06.916 --> 0:27:08.516
<v Speaker 2>Welcome to the big time.

0:27:09.196 --> 0:27:10.716
<v Speaker 1>Turn to him and say, do you know why you

0:27:10.716 --> 0:27:15.836
<v Speaker 1>can do this now? He knew? Regeemed your season on FanDuel,

0:27:16.036 --> 0:27:19.356
<v Speaker 1>play free until you win FanDuel More ways to win.

0:27:19.636 --> 0:27:23.036
<v Speaker 3>Hello, I'm a dinner again and I just placed the

0:27:23.116 --> 0:27:24.076
<v Speaker 3>dumbest bet of my life.

0:27:24.316 --> 0:27:35.756
<v Speaker 7>Get to DraftKings dot com.

0:27:35.796 --> 0:27:38.116
<v Speaker 1>Against the Rules is written and hosted by me Michael

0:27:38.196 --> 0:27:42.276
<v Speaker 1>Lewis and produced by Lydia Genekott, Catherine Gerardeau, and Ariela Markowitz.

0:27:42.796 --> 0:27:46.076
<v Speaker 1>Our editor is Julia Barton. Our engineer is Jake Krski.

0:27:46.556 --> 0:27:49.916
<v Speaker 1>Our music was composed by Matthias Bossi and John Evans

0:27:49.916 --> 0:27:53.676
<v Speaker 1>of stell Wagon Sinfinett. Our fact checker is Lauren Ves

0:27:53.676 --> 0:27:57.676
<v Speaker 1>Polly Against the Rules is a production of Pushkin Industries.

0:27:58.556 --> 0:28:02.276
<v Speaker 1>To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app,

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<v Speaker 1>Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And if

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0:28:17.196 --> 0:28:20.356
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0:28:24.796 --> 0:28:28.356
<v Speaker 4>So I went away to cope. Yeah no, seriously, Now, okay,

0:28:29.196 --> 0:28:32.396
<v Speaker 4>I got a story. I got a story for all this. Okay, no, no.

0:28:32.196 --> 0:28:33.436
<v Speaker 3>No, no one.

0:28:33.516 --> 0:28:38.316
<v Speaker 4>Lady said that the night before her football team or

0:28:38.356 --> 0:28:41.996
<v Speaker 4>college football team's games, that for good luck, she makes

0:28:42.036 --> 0:28:45.916
<v Speaker 4>her husband make love to her wearing the team's jersey

0:28:46.316 --> 0:28:49.356
<v Speaker 4>and socks and the team's colors. And ever since I

0:28:49.396 --> 0:28:51.556
<v Speaker 4>read that, I thought, no one looks for the college

0:28:51.556 --> 0:28:53.716
<v Speaker 4>football sus a more than her husband.

0:28:53.956 --> 0:28:56.716
<v Speaker 6>Right, He's like, he's looking for the socks.

0:28:58.836 --> 0:28:59.756
<v Speaker 3>Where did I put those?

0:28:59.796 --> 0:29:01.396
<v Speaker 6>Oh? No, I lost the socks.

0:29:01.676 --> 0:29:02.676
<v Speaker 3>Oh the lucky socks.

0:29:02.796 --> 0:29:04.036
<v Speaker 6>Well one sock, dude.

0:29:04.316 --> 0:29:07.076
<v Speaker 3>No, listen, you wear the lucky socks and you get lucky.