1 00:00:15,376 --> 00:00:15,816 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:18,956 --> 00:00:22,026 Speaker 2: Hey there, it's Michael Lewis here talking about my new book, Blockers. 3 00:00:22,906 --> 00:00:26,066 Speaker 2: Very briefly, it's about the collision between the Trump administration 4 00:00:26,106 --> 00:00:28,626 Speaker 2: and the civil service. And it's about the people who 5 00:00:28,646 --> 00:00:32,526 Speaker 2: got in the way on matters of principle with what 6 00:00:32,546 --> 00:00:36,616 Speaker 2: the Trump administration was trying to do. It's about mission-driven people, 7 00:00:37,136 --> 00:00:39,976 Speaker 2: people who are finding a life or found a life 8 00:00:39,996 --> 00:00:44,046 Speaker 2: for themselves that's much more than just about themselves. and 9 00:00:44,086 --> 00:00:46,386 Speaker 2: who I think in many ways are the best among us. 10 00:00:47,746 --> 00:00:50,166 Speaker 2: And it sort of asks the question, if these people 11 00:00:50,236 --> 00:00:52,756 Speaker 2: no longer belong in our government, what does it say 12 00:00:52,796 --> 00:00:55,516 Speaker 2: about us? So stay tuned until the end of this 13 00:00:55,576 --> 00:00:56,756 Speaker 2: episode for a preview. 14 00:01:08,046 --> 00:01:10,146 Speaker 3: I went to a game with my dad and my brother, 15 00:01:10,166 --> 00:01:12,826 Speaker 3: and it was miserable and awful, and we're all frustrated 16 00:01:13,046 --> 00:01:13,666 Speaker 3: and mad. 17 00:01:16,286 --> 00:01:21,366 Speaker 2: Eric Simons, high school math teacher in Northern California. Typical 18 00:01:21,426 --> 00:01:23,886 Speaker 2: sports fan in some ways. He fell in love with 19 00:01:23,926 --> 00:01:26,946 Speaker 2: his favorite teams as a little kid after his dad 20 00:01:26,986 --> 00:01:29,646 Speaker 2: took him to some games. Now he's all grown up, 21 00:01:30,026 --> 00:01:31,066 Speaker 2: but still going to games. 22 00:01:31,746 --> 00:01:34,496 Speaker 3: I'm riding home. I'm taking Bart back across from Berkeley 23 00:01:34,636 --> 00:01:37,496 Speaker 3: into the city on a Saturday night. And I'm sitting 24 00:01:37,516 --> 00:01:39,896 Speaker 3: there and I have like a headache from wearing a 25 00:01:39,976 --> 00:01:42,676 Speaker 3: dumb hat that has like constricted my head for too long. 26 00:01:42,716 --> 00:01:44,826 Speaker 3: And I've been standing in the sun and I had 27 00:01:44,866 --> 00:01:46,946 Speaker 3: like a miserable dinner and there's all these people around 28 00:01:47,006 --> 00:01:50,716 Speaker 3: me riding Bart in for like a nice night. They're 29 00:01:50,756 --> 00:01:53,876 Speaker 3: dressed up. They're going to bars. They're going to nice restaurants. 30 00:01:55,376 --> 00:01:58,076 Speaker 2: But in one way, Eric was not typical. He was 31 00:01:58,116 --> 00:02:00,756 Speaker 2: starting to ask questions that most sports fans never do. 32 00:02:01,556 --> 00:02:02,976 Speaker 3: And I'm just looking at myself and I'm crammed in 33 00:02:03,016 --> 00:02:05,216 Speaker 3: the corner just feeling like shit. Like, what the fuck 34 00:02:05,276 --> 00:02:06,756 Speaker 3: is wrong with me? Sorry, I don't know if I 35 00:02:06,776 --> 00:02:07,036 Speaker 3: can swear. 36 00:02:07,056 --> 00:02:08,376 Speaker 2: Yes, you can. Oh, we do. 37 00:02:08,636 --> 00:02:11,726 Speaker 3: Yes. What is wrong with me? Why am I sitting 38 00:02:11,786 --> 00:02:15,346 Speaker 3: here in the corner of a BART train, sweat stained 39 00:02:15,406 --> 00:02:19,346 Speaker 3: and smelling, and like 8.30 on a Saturday night when 40 00:02:19,406 --> 00:02:23,506 Speaker 3: everybody else is leading such a pleasant, normal life around me? 41 00:02:24,606 --> 00:02:27,576 Speaker 3: And I think I just felt that, like, why do 42 00:02:27,756 --> 00:02:29,716 Speaker 3: all of us do this so much? Why do we 43 00:02:29,736 --> 00:02:30,576 Speaker 3: do this to ourselves? 44 00:02:31,546 --> 00:02:35,466 Speaker 2: He was on that train around 2010. Eric teaches math, 45 00:02:35,946 --> 00:02:39,786 Speaker 2: but Eric also writes. The thought crossed his mind. Maybe 46 00:02:39,826 --> 00:02:42,746 Speaker 2: I should write about this. Maybe I should figure out 47 00:02:42,796 --> 00:02:45,056 Speaker 2: what's wrong with me, because someone needs to. 48 00:02:45,076 --> 00:02:47,316 Speaker 3: I was very naive at this point. I was a 49 00:02:47,356 --> 00:02:49,676 Speaker 3: science writer. I wrote mostly about scientists, and I thought, 50 00:02:49,696 --> 00:02:52,096 Speaker 3: you know, I'll go find a scientist, and the scientist 51 00:02:52,136 --> 00:02:54,736 Speaker 3: will answer it for me, because that's sort of what 52 00:02:54,776 --> 00:02:57,096 Speaker 3: I did. I'd have a question, and I'd I'd find 53 00:02:57,136 --> 00:02:58,776 Speaker 3: an expert, and the expert would say, oh, yeah, this. 54 00:02:59,096 --> 00:03:01,636 Speaker 3: And I honestly sort of thought, you know, some guy 55 00:03:01,656 --> 00:03:04,996 Speaker 3: will study sports fans at Harvard, and they'll say, yeah, 56 00:03:05,016 --> 00:03:06,656 Speaker 3: there's this little part of your brain there, and if 57 00:03:07,156 --> 00:03:09,756 Speaker 3: you nuke that sucker, you'd be healthy again. 58 00:03:11,016 --> 00:03:22,066 Speaker 2: If only it were that easy. I'm Michael Lewis, and 59 00:03:22,126 --> 00:03:25,836 Speaker 2: this is Against the Rules. Each season, we've taken a 60 00:03:25,896 --> 00:03:28,356 Speaker 2: character in American life who also happens to be a 61 00:03:28,416 --> 00:03:34,076 Speaker 2: character in American sports. The referee, the coach, the expert. 62 00:03:34,976 --> 00:03:38,796 Speaker 2: These characters have changed. Their roles have evolved in ways 63 00:03:38,836 --> 00:03:41,056 Speaker 2: that tell us not just about sports, but about the 64 00:03:41,116 --> 00:03:44,556 Speaker 2: world we live in. This season, the character we'll be 65 00:03:44,596 --> 00:03:55,066 Speaker 2: exploring is the fan. Being a fan is less a 66 00:03:55,146 --> 00:03:58,406 Speaker 2: role than an emotional state. And that emotional state hasn't 67 00:03:58,466 --> 00:04:01,646 Speaker 2: changed much since the 5th century BC, when Greeks hollered 68 00:04:01,666 --> 00:04:05,276 Speaker 2: at other Greeks racing chariots. What's changing is how that 69 00:04:05,316 --> 00:04:09,336 Speaker 2: emotional state can be exploited. That's a huge deal, because 70 00:04:09,376 --> 00:04:13,076 Speaker 2: it's shaping our society in all sorts of ways. This 71 00:04:13,156 --> 00:04:15,056 Speaker 2: fact has been staring me in the face for the 72 00:04:15,116 --> 00:04:17,766 Speaker 2: longest time now. I'm thinking right now of when I 73 00:04:17,806 --> 00:04:21,146 Speaker 2: was writing Moneyball. That book was about a baseball team 74 00:04:21,226 --> 00:04:24,106 Speaker 2: with no money, the Oakland A's, figuring out that the 75 00:04:24,166 --> 00:04:28,496 Speaker 2: other baseball teams were behaving irrationally and exploiting that. They 76 00:04:28,536 --> 00:04:31,856 Speaker 2: sparked a revolution, not just in sports, but in business 77 00:04:31,916 --> 00:04:35,396 Speaker 2: and politics and all sorts of other things. Even now, 78 00:04:35,456 --> 00:04:40,476 Speaker 2: you can't help but wonder, why Oakland? Why did this 79 00:04:40,676 --> 00:04:44,626 Speaker 2: world-changing event occur inside this baseball team with not too 80 00:04:44,646 --> 00:04:48,856 Speaker 2: many fans and no money? So few fans and so 81 00:04:48,896 --> 00:04:51,476 Speaker 2: little money that the Oakland A's are, as I speak, 82 00:04:51,756 --> 00:04:54,056 Speaker 2: packing up their bags and on their way to Las 83 00:04:54,096 --> 00:04:58,276 Speaker 2: Vegas in search of more fans and more money. Back 84 00:04:58,296 --> 00:05:00,516 Speaker 2: when the Oakland A's were inventing Moneyball, their lack of 85 00:05:00,596 --> 00:05:04,576 Speaker 2: resources was obviously important. It forced the A's management to 86 00:05:04,616 --> 00:05:07,466 Speaker 2: think differently, to compete with the teams with more money. 87 00:05:08,246 --> 00:05:12,926 Speaker 2: But another explanation was the Oakland fan or his absence. 88 00:05:14,306 --> 00:05:16,736 Speaker 2: Back when I was writing the book, the Oakland management 89 00:05:16,776 --> 00:05:20,696 Speaker 2: said this thing over and over. We are so lucky 90 00:05:20,756 --> 00:05:22,856 Speaker 2: we don't have a big, noisy fan base paying much 91 00:05:22,896 --> 00:05:25,776 Speaker 2: attention to what we do. The Oakland A's front office 92 00:05:26,056 --> 00:05:28,356 Speaker 2: didn't have this loud mob hollering at them to do 93 00:05:28,396 --> 00:05:31,196 Speaker 2: the same stupid stuff that the other baseball people were doing. 94 00:05:32,436 --> 00:05:34,656 Speaker 2: They weren't being egged on by their fans and by 95 00:05:34,676 --> 00:05:36,996 Speaker 2: their local media in the same way that, say, the 96 00:05:37,036 --> 00:05:40,196 Speaker 2: Yankees or the Red Sox were. A lot of people 97 00:05:40,226 --> 00:05:43,346 Speaker 2: who managed baseball teams were effectively playing craps to impress 98 00:05:43,386 --> 00:05:46,916 Speaker 2: the crowd around the table. the Oakland management was off 99 00:05:46,996 --> 00:05:50,956 Speaker 2: quietly counting cards at the blackjack table. They could ignore 100 00:05:51,076 --> 00:05:55,556 Speaker 2: fan emotion and rid themselves of fan biases. And that 101 00:05:55,596 --> 00:06:00,396 Speaker 2: was just a huge tactical advantage. A weird sort of 102 00:06:00,456 --> 00:06:04,476 Speaker 2: combat line runs through the modern economy. That's what this 103 00:06:04,536 --> 00:06:08,466 Speaker 2: entire season is really about. The gap between the people 104 00:06:08,486 --> 00:06:10,906 Speaker 2: who count cards and the people who don't even realize 105 00:06:10,946 --> 00:06:13,586 Speaker 2: the cards can be counted. Either you're one of these 106 00:06:13,646 --> 00:06:17,006 Speaker 2: smart people able to measure and analyze and calculate probabilities 107 00:06:17,046 --> 00:06:20,446 Speaker 2: and place your bets as rationally as possible, or you 108 00:06:20,546 --> 00:06:22,806 Speaker 2: are their prey, a fan. 109 00:06:24,246 --> 00:06:27,736 Speaker 3: So, you know, Google, you know, sports fan researchers. 110 00:06:27,976 --> 00:06:28,856 Speaker 1: Yep. 111 00:06:29,196 --> 00:06:32,216 Speaker 3: And to be honest, not that much comes up. And 112 00:06:32,256 --> 00:06:33,676 Speaker 3: it's like, well, why is that? 113 00:06:34,736 --> 00:06:36,736 Speaker 2: I definitely have a weak spot for writers who come 114 00:06:36,796 --> 00:06:39,906 Speaker 2: along and point out something important that's just been sitting 115 00:06:39,926 --> 00:06:45,386 Speaker 2: there forever, unnoticed. 15 years ago, Eric Simons did just that. 116 00:06:46,206 --> 00:06:50,766 Speaker 2: He noticed how weirdly he behaved as a fan, his irrationality, 117 00:06:51,646 --> 00:06:55,366 Speaker 2: how unhappy it could make him. He asked, what's the 118 00:06:55,446 --> 00:06:56,106 Speaker 2: matter with me? 119 00:06:57,566 --> 00:06:59,726 Speaker 3: This is a thing that is, you know, billions of 120 00:06:59,766 --> 00:07:03,986 Speaker 3: dollars and everyone does it and is true across cultures. Like, 121 00:07:04,346 --> 00:07:08,006 Speaker 3: why isn't there the Institute for the Study of Sports 122 00:07:08,066 --> 00:07:12,456 Speaker 3: Fans at every university on the planet? And so, you know, 123 00:07:12,496 --> 00:07:13,416 Speaker 3: I started there. 124 00:07:13,436 --> 00:07:16,176 Speaker 2: Because they're all too busy going to the football games. 125 00:07:16,456 --> 00:07:18,096 Speaker 3: Right. 126 00:07:18,196 --> 00:07:18,696 Speaker 2: That's why. 127 00:07:18,716 --> 00:07:20,516 Speaker 3: There's a lot of truth to that. 128 00:07:24,626 --> 00:07:27,986 Speaker 2: Eric Simon set out to find someone, anyone, who could 129 00:07:28,006 --> 00:07:30,526 Speaker 2: help him to explain the weird things his mind was doing. 130 00:07:31,706 --> 00:07:34,476 Speaker 2: And back then, if you did that, you eventually ended 131 00:07:34,536 --> 00:07:37,636 Speaker 2: up meeting Dan Wands. I can't figure out for dramatic 132 00:07:37,696 --> 00:07:40,796 Speaker 2: purposes whether it's better to call you Professor Juan or Dan. 133 00:07:41,156 --> 00:07:45,006 Speaker 1: Yeah, I will leave that up to you. The only 134 00:07:45,046 --> 00:07:47,126 Speaker 1: thing I care about is what my grandchild calls me, 135 00:07:47,146 --> 00:07:49,966 Speaker 1: Dan Dan. Beyond that, I don't really care. 136 00:07:50,766 --> 00:07:53,796 Speaker 2: Dan Juan is a psychology professor at Murray State University 137 00:07:53,826 --> 00:07:54,816 Speaker 2: in western Kentucky. 138 00:07:55,376 --> 00:07:58,196 Speaker 3: Professor Juan's kind of great because it's the professor of 139 00:07:58,236 --> 00:08:00,816 Speaker 3: something that nobody else is a professor of, sort of. 140 00:08:02,326 --> 00:08:04,766 Speaker 2: Dan or his students have written some huge number of 141 00:08:04,866 --> 00:08:09,096 Speaker 2: serious academic articles, with titles like Is There Really No 142 00:08:09,156 --> 00:08:12,496 Speaker 2: Crying in Baseball? Examining the Acceptance of Crying in Sport, 143 00:08:13,196 --> 00:08:16,656 Speaker 2: and Feeling Suck and So Does Your Team, exploring the 144 00:08:16,716 --> 00:08:21,436 Speaker 2: link between restrictive emotionality and dysfunctional fandom. But for a 145 00:08:21,476 --> 00:08:24,436 Speaker 2: long time, as far as Dan knew, he was the 146 00:08:24,476 --> 00:08:33,536 Speaker 2: world's only full-time sports fan researcher. He invented the field 147 00:08:33,596 --> 00:08:38,986 Speaker 2: by accident, as a graduate student, back in 1987. On 148 00:08:39,026 --> 00:08:40,926 Speaker 2: the first day of class, his professor gave him a 149 00:08:40,966 --> 00:08:46,746 Speaker 2: homework assignment. Find some testable hypothesis about human behavior. He'd 150 00:08:46,786 --> 00:08:50,186 Speaker 2: gone home and watched SportsCenter instead. There were only two 151 00:08:50,246 --> 00:08:53,166 Speaker 2: students in Dan's class, and when it was time to present, 152 00:08:53,706 --> 00:08:55,326 Speaker 2: the professor called on Dan first. 153 00:08:56,686 --> 00:09:01,836 Speaker 1: I had 100% forgotten about the assignment. I am now 154 00:09:01,916 --> 00:09:05,916 Speaker 1: just making crap up as I go along. And I said, well, 155 00:09:06,716 --> 00:09:08,656 Speaker 1: I think there had been this story on the sports 156 00:09:08,676 --> 00:09:11,376 Speaker 1: center about a soccer rise. Well, I think that if 157 00:09:11,416 --> 00:09:14,936 Speaker 1: an individual is really highly identified, psychologically connected to their 158 00:09:14,956 --> 00:09:17,826 Speaker 1: sports team, they're probably more likely to get violent when 159 00:09:17,846 --> 00:09:19,926 Speaker 1: they're watching the team if things don't work out. 160 00:09:21,186 --> 00:09:24,726 Speaker 2: On the spot, Dan cooks up his testable hypothesis. He 161 00:09:24,756 --> 00:09:27,526 Speaker 2: believes the sports fans most likely to start fights after 162 00:09:27,586 --> 00:09:30,946 Speaker 2: a loss are the sports fans most devoted to that team. 163 00:09:32,166 --> 00:09:34,846 Speaker 2: This hypothesis will be a breeze to test, he thinks. 164 00:09:35,566 --> 00:09:38,226 Speaker 2: Surely someone in the world of psychology has already looked 165 00:09:38,266 --> 00:09:41,586 Speaker 2: into it. When you go back and you look back 166 00:09:42,226 --> 00:09:45,446 Speaker 2: at people who've studied fans, what do you find? 167 00:09:46,006 --> 00:09:51,126 Speaker 1: A random study or two. on fan violence. And if 168 00:09:51,186 --> 00:09:54,486 Speaker 1: you ever found anybody who wrote like an opinion or 169 00:09:54,506 --> 00:09:57,866 Speaker 1: an essay about sport fandom, they all just slammed it. 170 00:09:58,026 --> 00:10:00,946 Speaker 1: Everybody loves sport, except for the, you know, the eggheads 171 00:10:01,006 --> 00:10:02,206 Speaker 1: are actually studying sport. 172 00:10:03,106 --> 00:10:06,226 Speaker 2: So Dan designs his own study. He discovers to his 173 00:10:06,266 --> 00:10:09,716 Speaker 2: surprise that there's little correlation between fans' devotion to their 174 00:10:09,736 --> 00:10:13,536 Speaker 2: teams and their willingness to punch people. He starts to 175 00:10:13,566 --> 00:10:15,986 Speaker 2: look further into the lives of dedicated fans. 176 00:10:17,096 --> 00:10:20,196 Speaker 4: Sports fans are more politically active than non-sports fans. They're 177 00:10:20,216 --> 00:10:22,686 Speaker 4: more likely to go to museums than non-sports fans. They're 178 00:10:22,706 --> 00:10:25,826 Speaker 4: more likely to play sports. They're more likely to go 179 00:10:25,846 --> 00:10:28,666 Speaker 4: to the theater. They're more likely to donate. They're also 180 00:10:28,706 --> 00:10:30,726 Speaker 4: more likely to have higher GPAs. 181 00:10:31,526 --> 00:10:33,846 Speaker 1: So they're not lazy. No, they're not. Now, again, okay, 182 00:10:34,246 --> 00:10:37,516 Speaker 1: some are, right? I mean, we've got to always admit, right, 183 00:10:37,756 --> 00:10:41,056 Speaker 1: that they're out there. But no, the vast majority are 184 00:10:41,276 --> 00:10:42,156 Speaker 1: quite involved. 185 00:10:43,056 --> 00:10:46,696 Speaker 2: Now, obviously, all fans aren't the same. There are nuances here. 186 00:10:47,316 --> 00:10:50,576 Speaker 2: and Dan Wan began to explore them. What began with 187 00:10:50,636 --> 00:10:54,356 Speaker 2: a forgotten homework assignment became a stream of published papers. 188 00:10:55,036 --> 00:10:59,846 Speaker 1: The reviews and the response I got from academics and 189 00:11:00,146 --> 00:11:03,586 Speaker 1: journals and the media was so positive that I just 190 00:11:04,086 --> 00:11:06,446 Speaker 1: basically scuttled everything else and decided to just study this 191 00:11:06,526 --> 00:11:07,206 Speaker 1: for 35 years. 192 00:11:08,286 --> 00:11:10,366 Speaker 2: It's kind of odd if you think about it. Basically, 193 00:11:10,486 --> 00:11:13,526 Speaker 2: no one else wanted to study sports fans. But lots 194 00:11:13,586 --> 00:11:16,986 Speaker 2: of people, even people who ran serious academic journals, We're 195 00:11:17,046 --> 00:11:17,906 Speaker 2: curious about them. 196 00:11:18,606 --> 00:11:22,266 Speaker 1: It's this social category where the editors and the reviewers, 197 00:11:22,546 --> 00:11:25,326 Speaker 1: there's a decent chance, no guarantee, there's a decent chance 198 00:11:25,346 --> 00:11:28,526 Speaker 1: that they're sports fans. And they're like, yeah, why in 199 00:11:28,566 --> 00:11:29,886 Speaker 1: the world am I doing this? 200 00:11:30,986 --> 00:11:33,636 Speaker 2: It's that same question again, and no one's answering it. 201 00:11:34,506 --> 00:11:37,886 Speaker 1: People are so curious as to why it is such 202 00:11:37,926 --> 00:11:40,786 Speaker 1: a large chunk of the population will dedicate such time 203 00:11:40,826 --> 00:11:45,456 Speaker 1: and money and love and desire and emotion and sadness 204 00:11:45,496 --> 00:11:50,396 Speaker 1: and whatever. to this voluntary activity, right? No one's like 205 00:11:50,456 --> 00:11:53,356 Speaker 1: twisting their arm and making them go do this. And 206 00:11:53,376 --> 00:11:57,476 Speaker 1: they have very, very little, if any, control over the outcome. 207 00:11:58,356 --> 00:12:01,336 Speaker 1: I mean, you can't find another place in society where 208 00:12:01,356 --> 00:12:03,876 Speaker 1: that's the case, right? Where people care so much about 209 00:12:03,936 --> 00:12:07,066 Speaker 1: something and they walk in going, yeah, you know, there's 210 00:12:07,106 --> 00:12:10,486 Speaker 1: about a 50-50 chance that I'm going to hate this 211 00:12:10,626 --> 00:12:14,186 Speaker 1: at the end of consuming it. I can't control the outcome. 212 00:12:14,726 --> 00:12:15,146 Speaker 1: Let's go. 213 00:12:25,046 --> 00:12:28,126 Speaker 2: Let's go back to 1987 as a starting point, the 214 00:12:28,166 --> 00:12:31,256 Speaker 2: year Dan Juan forgot his homework and stumbled into a career. 215 00:12:32,856 --> 00:12:36,756 Speaker 2: In 1987, the highest-rated TV program in the United States, 216 00:12:36,936 --> 00:12:41,256 Speaker 2: according to Nielsen Research, was The Cosby Show, followed by 217 00:12:41,316 --> 00:12:46,126 Speaker 2: A Different World, Cheers, and The Golden Girls. Only one 218 00:12:46,146 --> 00:12:49,426 Speaker 2: of the top 30 TV shows in 1987 had anything 219 00:12:49,466 --> 00:12:52,906 Speaker 2: to do with sports. Monday Night Football came in 16th. 220 00:12:54,746 --> 00:13:01,396 Speaker 2: TV's changed a lot since 1987. In 2023, 93 of 221 00:13:01,436 --> 00:13:05,656 Speaker 2: the 100 most-watched broadcasts in the United States were sporting events. 222 00:13:05,656 --> 00:13:09,846 Speaker 2: 20 NFL games drew bigger crowds than the State of 223 00:13:09,876 --> 00:13:14,566 Speaker 2: the Union address. 58 NFL games and one college football 224 00:13:14,606 --> 00:13:18,646 Speaker 2: game had more viewers than the Oscars. Only when you 225 00:13:18,686 --> 00:13:21,946 Speaker 2: get to the second 100 most-watched TV shows does football 226 00:13:21,966 --> 00:13:27,016 Speaker 2: start to get some competition. from basketball and baseball, pro golf, 227 00:13:27,756 --> 00:13:31,336 Speaker 2: and the Kentucky Derby. There's no longer any question of 228 00:13:31,376 --> 00:13:34,396 Speaker 2: whether sports and sports fans are central to our culture. 229 00:13:35,436 --> 00:13:38,596 Speaker 2: The question is, does our culture have a center without them? 230 00:13:44,176 --> 00:13:47,156 Speaker 5: What about the fans? What about the fans? 231 00:13:48,056 --> 00:13:51,176 Speaker 2: Andrew Brandt runs the Center for Sports Law at Villanova University. 232 00:13:52,226 --> 00:13:54,426 Speaker 2: But before that, he spent a decade running the business 233 00:13:54,506 --> 00:13:55,826 Speaker 2: end of the Green Bay Packers. 234 00:13:58,146 --> 00:14:02,336 Speaker 5: And I feel for the fan because, listen, I cover business. 235 00:14:02,736 --> 00:14:07,436 Speaker 5: And in these business negotiations between leagues and players associations, 236 00:14:07,996 --> 00:14:13,376 Speaker 5: media networks and leagues, municipalities and teams about stadiums and 237 00:14:13,476 --> 00:14:17,976 Speaker 5: taxpayer money, the fans are not party, right? There's no 238 00:14:18,036 --> 00:14:23,416 Speaker 5: negotiation where, well, let's see what the fan thinks. So 239 00:14:23,656 --> 00:14:27,036 Speaker 5: I understand sports is fun and games, and I tell 240 00:14:27,076 --> 00:14:31,186 Speaker 5: my students all the time, but it's not. At this level, 241 00:14:31,266 --> 00:14:34,446 Speaker 5: it's not. It's a business, and it's a cold business. 242 00:14:35,246 --> 00:14:36,706 Speaker 5: You see players shipped out. 243 00:14:36,746 --> 00:14:37,446 Speaker 2: Left and right. 244 00:14:37,506 --> 00:14:41,466 Speaker 5: You see fans kind of a pawn in the process, 245 00:14:42,066 --> 00:14:45,996 Speaker 5: but they keep coming back. They keep coming back. 246 00:14:46,816 --> 00:14:50,216 Speaker 2: It's such an alluring product that the seller doesn't have 247 00:14:50,256 --> 00:14:52,436 Speaker 2: to pay much attention to the interests of the buyer. 248 00:14:53,316 --> 00:14:58,816 Speaker 5: Well, they come back despite prices rising, despite cable bills rising, 249 00:14:58,916 --> 00:15:02,896 Speaker 5: despite all those things. If there was a breaking point 250 00:15:04,096 --> 00:15:08,656 Speaker 5: where fans say that I've had enough, maybe prices would change. 251 00:15:08,896 --> 00:15:13,146 Speaker 5: Maybe availability would change. We just don't know. 252 00:15:14,266 --> 00:15:17,416 Speaker 2: But we sort of do know. Booming ticket prices, teams 253 00:15:17,496 --> 00:15:20,636 Speaker 2: jumping around from city to city, players jumping around from 254 00:15:20,676 --> 00:15:23,696 Speaker 2: team to team, college sports becoming a raw money grab. 255 00:15:24,676 --> 00:15:27,696 Speaker 2: People used to say that greedy capitalism would kill fan interest, 256 00:15:27,776 --> 00:15:29,586 Speaker 2: but not a chance, no matter what you do to 257 00:15:29,616 --> 00:15:32,026 Speaker 2: the fan or to his team or to his sport. 258 00:15:32,746 --> 00:15:35,406 Speaker 2: He's been willing to take it and come back for more. 259 00:15:36,466 --> 00:15:38,486 Speaker 2: The Green Bay Packers are the only pro sports teams 260 00:15:38,506 --> 00:15:41,346 Speaker 2: that's owned by their fans, and so they publish their 261 00:15:41,386 --> 00:15:45,606 Speaker 2: financial results. Andrew Brandt knows this better than anyone. The Packers' 262 00:15:45,646 --> 00:15:49,666 Speaker 2: finances over time show you the dollar value of fan interest. 263 00:15:50,966 --> 00:15:54,366 Speaker 5: So think about gross revenues, right? Gross revenues when I 264 00:15:54,406 --> 00:15:55,956 Speaker 5: got there in 1999 were about $ 200 million. By the 265 00:15:55,976 --> 00:15:58,336 Speaker 5: time I left in 2009, Packers had revenues of $ 450 million. 266 00:15:58,356 --> 00:16:01,056 Speaker 5: So more than double that amount in a decade. 267 00:16:10,016 --> 00:16:13,356 Speaker 2: Back in 1987, the Packers, if they could legally be sold, 268 00:16:13,936 --> 00:16:17,716 Speaker 2: could have been bought for roughly $ 90 million. Forbes now 269 00:16:17,796 --> 00:16:22,736 Speaker 2: values the team at $ 5. 6 billion. The Packers didn't publish 270 00:16:22,756 --> 00:16:25,876 Speaker 2: their players' salaries back in 1987. They weren't that interesting. 271 00:16:26,296 --> 00:16:29,356 Speaker 2: But no one made more than six figures. Last year, 272 00:16:29,396 --> 00:16:31,276 Speaker 2: the team's left tackle made $ 21. 273 00:16:31,176 --> 00:16:31,456 Speaker 3: 3 million. 274 00:16:31,476 --> 00:16:38,136 Speaker 2: Who's ultimately paying for all this? The fans, of course, 275 00:16:38,196 --> 00:16:42,186 Speaker 2: through ticket sales, through cable bills, through less tangible ways 276 00:16:42,256 --> 00:16:45,946 Speaker 2: like taxes and viewership. It is a word for people 277 00:16:45,966 --> 00:16:48,906 Speaker 2: who pay more and more for the same product and 278 00:16:48,926 --> 00:16:51,566 Speaker 2: who will continue to pay more and more, no matter 279 00:16:51,626 --> 00:16:53,126 Speaker 2: how badly it makes them feel. 280 00:16:54,306 --> 00:17:01,246 Speaker 1: Addict. I have spent the better part of three and 281 00:17:01,266 --> 00:17:04,756 Speaker 1: a half decades studying how sports fans cope with losses. 282 00:17:05,536 --> 00:17:09,336 Speaker 2: Professor Dan Wan again the world's first sports fan researcher. 283 00:17:10,336 --> 00:17:12,876 Speaker 1: All right, so give me a little toolbox. Give me 284 00:17:12,896 --> 00:17:16,816 Speaker 1: the toolbox for coping. Okay, so first of all, sports 285 00:17:16,856 --> 00:17:25,006 Speaker 1: fans are great at seeing the past through incredibly rose-colored glasses, right? 286 00:17:25,366 --> 00:17:29,806 Speaker 1: So you ask people, okay, 10 years ago, how many 287 00:17:29,866 --> 00:17:34,126 Speaker 1: games did your team win? They actually will overestimate that. 288 00:17:35,026 --> 00:17:38,486 Speaker 2: Coping strategy number one for the addict. You ignore the facts. 289 00:17:38,946 --> 00:17:42,986 Speaker 2: You rewrite history. So whatever actually happened becomes what you 290 00:17:43,046 --> 00:17:43,826 Speaker 2: wish had happened. 291 00:17:44,906 --> 00:17:47,976 Speaker 1: They also had a tendency to see the future as 292 00:17:48,066 --> 00:17:51,156 Speaker 1: being prettier than it's probably going to be. So we 293 00:17:51,176 --> 00:17:56,586 Speaker 1: like construct our reality based on reality. The fact our 294 00:17:56,606 --> 00:17:58,806 Speaker 1: team's not doing well now, but man, it was so 295 00:17:58,866 --> 00:18:00,766 Speaker 1: great before, and man, it's going to be so great 296 00:18:00,806 --> 00:18:04,386 Speaker 1: in the future. Every crappy NFL team, what do all 297 00:18:04,406 --> 00:18:06,806 Speaker 1: the fan bases talk about? Next year's draft, that's what 298 00:18:06,826 --> 00:18:08,326 Speaker 1: they always talk about, because we're going to have a 299 00:18:08,326 --> 00:18:08,736 Speaker 1: good pick. 300 00:18:09,456 --> 00:18:14,236 Speaker 2: Coping strategy number two, an active fantasy life. Whatever just happened, 301 00:18:14,696 --> 00:18:17,856 Speaker 2: it doesn't matter, because it has no bearing on what 302 00:18:17,916 --> 00:18:18,376 Speaker 2: will happen. 303 00:18:19,256 --> 00:18:22,296 Speaker 1: Another thing that fans do is they will find a 304 00:18:22,376 --> 00:18:28,036 Speaker 1: way to, to move the cause off of the team 305 00:18:28,056 --> 00:18:31,276 Speaker 1: and onto some other entity. It was the ref's fault. 306 00:18:32,536 --> 00:18:37,586 Speaker 2: Coping strategy number three. My personal favorite. We were robbed. 307 00:18:38,306 --> 00:18:39,566 Speaker 2: The game was stolen. 308 00:18:40,246 --> 00:18:40,686 Speaker 1: Rigged. 309 00:18:41,066 --> 00:18:44,526 Speaker 2: It's all rigged. The fans need to believe is so 310 00:18:44,646 --> 00:18:48,236 Speaker 2: powerful that it warps reality. You never need to change 311 00:18:48,246 --> 00:18:53,676 Speaker 2: your belief. Which brings us to the weird stuff. Dan 312 00:18:53,816 --> 00:18:54,976 Speaker 2: loves the weird stuff. 313 00:18:56,156 --> 00:19:00,116 Speaker 1: One person said that his superstition was that when watching 314 00:19:00,156 --> 00:19:02,896 Speaker 1: his favorite team on TV, he had to go up 315 00:19:02,916 --> 00:19:05,576 Speaker 1: to the opposing team's free throw shooter and put his 316 00:19:05,676 --> 00:19:11,206 Speaker 1: hand over that person's eyes to distract him on the TV. 317 00:19:12,126 --> 00:19:14,726 Speaker 1: On the TV. This is a person who is getting 318 00:19:14,766 --> 00:19:19,126 Speaker 1: a master's degree from our psychology program. Here's the thing. 319 00:19:19,166 --> 00:19:22,766 Speaker 1: Not only, I mean, I have to rub my favorite 320 00:19:22,786 --> 00:19:25,676 Speaker 1: pack of baseball cards on my cat. I have to 321 00:19:25,736 --> 00:19:28,896 Speaker 1: light incense to the Buddha out back. We can't let 322 00:19:28,996 --> 00:19:31,196 Speaker 1: mom in the room because she's bad luck. But here's 323 00:19:31,216 --> 00:19:35,476 Speaker 1: the thing, Michael. Here's the thing. We asked him on 324 00:19:35,496 --> 00:19:39,616 Speaker 1: a one to eight scale, one, not at all, eight, 100%. 325 00:19:39,616 --> 00:19:45,376 Speaker 1: How convinced are you that your superstitions impact the outcome 326 00:19:45,496 --> 00:19:48,996 Speaker 1: of the sporting event and the average score was about five. 327 00:19:48,996 --> 00:19:52,816 Speaker 1: Think about that. These are educated people, right? And we 328 00:19:52,816 --> 00:19:55,076 Speaker 1: was like, well, are you going to, are you going 329 00:19:55,096 --> 00:19:57,256 Speaker 1: to stop? Well, I know it's silly, but I still 330 00:19:57,296 --> 00:19:57,886 Speaker 1: have to do it. 331 00:19:59,016 --> 00:20:02,376 Speaker 2: This isn't just people doing obviously dumb shit. It's people 332 00:20:02,516 --> 00:20:06,636 Speaker 2: capable of knowing they're doing dumb shit and somehow still 333 00:20:06,736 --> 00:20:08,076 Speaker 2: refusing to know it. 334 00:20:08,966 --> 00:20:11,646 Speaker 1: We had one person who, He actually did his own 335 00:20:11,746 --> 00:20:15,206 Speaker 1: study with his lucky St. Louis Cardinals hat, where he 336 00:20:15,286 --> 00:20:17,246 Speaker 1: kept track for a whole season of how many they 337 00:20:17,306 --> 00:20:19,046 Speaker 1: won when he wore the hat and how many they 338 00:20:19,066 --> 00:20:21,026 Speaker 1: won when he didn't. And he showed us this. It's 339 00:20:21,066 --> 00:20:24,146 Speaker 1: scientific now. It's scientific. He showed us how they had 340 00:20:24,186 --> 00:20:25,866 Speaker 1: a better winning percentage, so now he has to wear 341 00:20:25,906 --> 00:20:26,206 Speaker 1: the hat. 342 00:20:28,506 --> 00:20:34,446 Speaker 2: Warping reality. Blaming others. Embracing superstitions. All to cope with 343 00:20:34,506 --> 00:20:39,746 Speaker 2: a very basic situation that you can't control. All symptoms 344 00:20:40,086 --> 00:20:49,146 Speaker 2: of fandom. All right, let's get back to Eric Simons, 345 00:20:49,716 --> 00:20:51,636 Speaker 2: the math teacher and science writer who was on the 346 00:20:51,676 --> 00:20:55,056 Speaker 2: BART train after his team lost, wondering what was wrong 347 00:20:55,076 --> 00:20:58,416 Speaker 2: with him. You established pretty quickly there was not some 348 00:20:58,496 --> 00:21:00,816 Speaker 2: part of your brain that was responsible for this. 349 00:21:01,296 --> 00:21:02,916 Speaker 3: Right, I mean, it's all your brain. 350 00:21:04,116 --> 00:21:06,496 Speaker 2: Eric eventually writes an entire book about all this. It's 351 00:21:06,516 --> 00:21:09,156 Speaker 2: called The Secret Lives of Sports Fans. trying to figure 352 00:21:09,176 --> 00:21:12,836 Speaker 2: out what's underneath all the weird behavior. Eric winds up 353 00:21:12,876 --> 00:21:15,496 Speaker 2: talking to neurologists and psychologists, people who had learned all 354 00:21:15,616 --> 00:21:18,856 Speaker 2: kinds of interesting stuff about the human brain, but hadn't 355 00:21:18,876 --> 00:21:21,076 Speaker 2: thought to apply it to the brains of sports fans. 356 00:21:22,596 --> 00:21:26,016 Speaker 3: This is what our hormones do when we're working against 357 00:21:26,076 --> 00:21:30,116 Speaker 3: other people. This is what we do when we're in groups. 358 00:21:30,796 --> 00:21:34,226 Speaker 3: It's affecting your judgment. I think people talk about this 359 00:21:34,286 --> 00:21:37,176 Speaker 3: more in a societal context. than a sports fan context. 360 00:21:37,236 --> 00:21:41,716 Speaker 3: But like a basic example, there's cameras everywhere. There's slow-mo 361 00:21:41,776 --> 00:21:44,376 Speaker 3: instant replay everywhere. Why is it that with like 19 362 00:21:44,376 --> 00:21:49,096 Speaker 3: different instant replays, people divide? They get more convinced I'm 363 00:21:49,186 --> 00:21:51,306 Speaker 3: right and the other guys are wrong. How can you 364 00:21:51,326 --> 00:21:54,806 Speaker 3: show two people video clips in super slow motion and 365 00:21:54,846 --> 00:21:58,686 Speaker 3: they're still disagreeing about what happened? It's because like this 366 00:21:58,726 --> 00:22:03,586 Speaker 3: whole enterprise is challenging your perception. It's changing what you see. 367 00:22:05,626 --> 00:22:08,806 Speaker 2: It's changing what you see. So we not only tolerate, 368 00:22:08,946 --> 00:22:12,006 Speaker 2: but actively pursue interests that lead us to warp reality. 369 00:22:13,006 --> 00:22:16,066 Speaker 2: But what purpose does that serve? One answer that Eric 370 00:22:16,106 --> 00:22:19,206 Speaker 2: found had been supplied long ago by a Polish social 371 00:22:19,266 --> 00:22:23,886 Speaker 2: psychologist named Henry Tadzfel. Tadzfel had his own curious journey 372 00:22:23,946 --> 00:22:24,586 Speaker 2: to the subject. 373 00:22:25,626 --> 00:22:30,006 Speaker 3: He is Jewish in the 1920s, 1930s, then moves to 374 00:22:30,066 --> 00:22:33,916 Speaker 3: France just before the start of World War II. He 375 00:22:33,976 --> 00:22:37,416 Speaker 3: volunteers for the French army. He is captured. He goes 376 00:22:37,496 --> 00:22:39,596 Speaker 3: home to Poland after the war and finds out that 377 00:22:39,666 --> 00:22:42,906 Speaker 3: most of his friends and family have been killed. And 378 00:22:43,966 --> 00:22:46,366 Speaker 3: this sort of sets him on this course of trying 379 00:22:46,386 --> 00:22:51,606 Speaker 3: to understand why do people do this? Where do these 380 00:22:51,666 --> 00:22:56,266 Speaker 3: divisions in societies come from? Where does prejudice come from? 381 00:22:56,906 --> 00:23:00,986 Speaker 3: Why do people have this ability to turn against each 382 00:23:01,046 --> 00:23:04,856 Speaker 3: other in such a way? Stop recognizing each other's humanity. 383 00:23:06,116 --> 00:23:09,316 Speaker 2: Tachfeld survived the war only because he'd become identified with 384 00:23:09,376 --> 00:23:12,586 Speaker 2: a group to which he didn't really belong, French soldiers, 385 00:23:13,206 --> 00:23:17,246 Speaker 2: rather than to the one he did, Polish Jews. He 386 00:23:17,286 --> 00:23:19,926 Speaker 2: wanted to study the power of groups. And so he 387 00:23:19,966 --> 00:23:22,916 Speaker 2: started by taking his students and just dividing them in two. 388 00:23:23,716 --> 00:23:27,216 Speaker 3: And one of his principal findings, which is called minimal 389 00:23:27,256 --> 00:23:31,986 Speaker 3: group theory, is that doesn't have to matter the differences 390 00:23:32,026 --> 00:23:35,366 Speaker 3: between the groups. That you could be divided into groups 391 00:23:36,106 --> 00:23:41,526 Speaker 3: incredibly arbitrarily. He divided kids, mostly schoolboys in his studies, 392 00:23:42,146 --> 00:23:45,946 Speaker 3: into groups on the basis of flipping a coin. And 393 00:23:45,986 --> 00:23:51,506 Speaker 3: what he found, and what collaborators found, is that just 394 00:23:51,566 --> 00:23:53,626 Speaker 3: that arbitrary division, you guys are over here, you guys 395 00:23:53,646 --> 00:23:57,566 Speaker 3: are over here, is enough to then produce pretty significant 396 00:23:57,586 --> 00:24:01,196 Speaker 3: differences differences in how those groups behave toward each other. 397 00:24:01,316 --> 00:24:03,316 Speaker 3: For no other reason than we said, you're in that 398 00:24:03,376 --> 00:24:04,176 Speaker 3: one and you're in that one. 399 00:24:04,616 --> 00:24:07,336 Speaker 2: So much shallower than the difference between the Chiefs and 400 00:24:07,356 --> 00:24:07,916 Speaker 2: the Bengals. 401 00:24:08,556 --> 00:24:08,916 Speaker 1: Yeah. 402 00:24:09,456 --> 00:24:11,716 Speaker 3: I mean, these were all kids from the same school. 403 00:24:12,136 --> 00:24:14,926 Speaker 3: They're all sort of the same age. They are a 404 00:24:14,996 --> 00:24:18,006 Speaker 3: pretty homogenous group. You put someone in a group and 405 00:24:18,026 --> 00:24:21,246 Speaker 3: you tell them you're in this group and your identity becomes, 406 00:24:21,526 --> 00:24:22,266 Speaker 3: I'm part of this group. 407 00:24:24,106 --> 00:24:27,106 Speaker 2: This is my place. I belong here with these other 408 00:24:27,146 --> 00:24:30,766 Speaker 2: people like me. That feeling, once I have it, is 409 00:24:30,826 --> 00:24:33,226 Speaker 2: so powerful that it'll cause me to organize all my 410 00:24:33,266 --> 00:24:37,886 Speaker 2: beliefs and perceptions around it. It'll dictate my reality. 411 00:24:39,426 --> 00:24:42,626 Speaker 3: If we all have these sort of biases, you know, 412 00:24:42,686 --> 00:24:47,106 Speaker 3: and you see them expressed so neatly in sports, then 413 00:24:47,126 --> 00:24:49,176 Speaker 3: maybe sports is a way to look at sort of 414 00:24:49,246 --> 00:24:51,916 Speaker 3: slowly unraveling them, which is where I started to look 415 00:24:51,956 --> 00:24:54,816 Speaker 3: at these questions about, you know, like, why doesn't instant 416 00:24:54,856 --> 00:24:58,856 Speaker 3: replay change anyone's mind? And what do you need to 417 00:25:00,836 --> 00:25:08,856 Speaker 3: make a friend from across the aisle? Where could you 418 00:25:08,996 --> 00:25:11,876 Speaker 3: find that sort of harmonious utopia? 419 00:25:12,956 --> 00:25:13,896 Speaker 2: Not in Philadelphia. 420 00:25:16,096 --> 00:25:18,936 Speaker 3: But that's why it's so interesting to look at. Where 421 00:25:19,296 --> 00:25:22,856 Speaker 3: has it ever existed? So finding that line, which involves 422 00:25:22,906 --> 00:25:26,916 Speaker 3: sort of changing our own our own perception and changing 423 00:25:26,936 --> 00:25:29,836 Speaker 3: the perception of other people. That sort of became the 424 00:25:29,936 --> 00:25:30,616 Speaker 3: big question. 425 00:25:31,796 --> 00:25:35,226 Speaker 2: You'll notice that Eric changed his question. When he started, 426 00:25:35,266 --> 00:25:38,206 Speaker 2: he was asking, what the hell's wrong with me? By 427 00:25:38,226 --> 00:25:41,106 Speaker 2: the end, he's asking, why can't human beings, once they 428 00:25:41,166 --> 00:25:43,686 Speaker 2: identify with some group, see the world as it is 429 00:25:43,826 --> 00:25:46,736 Speaker 2: rather than as they'd like it to be? Why are 430 00:25:46,746 --> 00:25:49,616 Speaker 2: they even less inclined than usual to respond to facts 431 00:25:49,956 --> 00:25:52,956 Speaker 2: and to stats and more inclined to be swayed by 432 00:25:53,016 --> 00:25:56,876 Speaker 2: some story in their heads? Why can't they see that 433 00:25:56,916 --> 00:26:01,366 Speaker 2: the odds are against them? This new question is obviously bigger, 434 00:26:01,466 --> 00:26:05,366 Speaker 2: maybe even better, than Eric's original one. But it leaves 435 00:26:05,426 --> 00:26:07,446 Speaker 2: the original one just kind of hanging there. 436 00:26:08,826 --> 00:26:12,386 Speaker 3: I started because... I felt like there was something wrong 437 00:26:12,426 --> 00:26:14,646 Speaker 3: with me. And I think I ended feeling like, well, 438 00:26:14,966 --> 00:26:18,186 Speaker 3: maybe this is more normal than it feels. This is 439 00:26:18,226 --> 00:26:20,956 Speaker 3: just sort of part of being human. That it's just 440 00:26:21,006 --> 00:26:23,676 Speaker 3: weird to be a person sometimes. And that sports fans 441 00:26:23,736 --> 00:26:26,856 Speaker 3: is one part of being weird as a person. But 442 00:26:26,916 --> 00:26:28,836 Speaker 3: it has its moments of sweetness and it has its 443 00:26:28,876 --> 00:26:31,736 Speaker 3: moments of joy, as well as it has its moments 444 00:26:31,776 --> 00:26:34,146 Speaker 3: of what the fuck. This is the dumbest thing. Why 445 00:26:34,186 --> 00:26:36,586 Speaker 3: do I do it? And that all that together, I mean, 446 00:26:37,006 --> 00:26:39,406 Speaker 3: that is the package of being alive. And you accept 447 00:26:39,466 --> 00:26:41,746 Speaker 3: it in this context the same way you accept it 448 00:26:41,786 --> 00:26:42,346 Speaker 3: everywhere else. 449 00:26:43,346 --> 00:26:45,506 Speaker 2: Eric Simons sort of hoped that he might study his 450 00:26:45,566 --> 00:26:48,626 Speaker 2: way out of fandom. He wound up giving up on 451 00:26:48,666 --> 00:26:51,996 Speaker 2: that and just coming to terms with it. There was 452 00:26:52,056 --> 00:26:55,436 Speaker 2: no magic pill to take. There was just this powerful 453 00:26:55,536 --> 00:26:59,256 Speaker 2: force inside him. A force that shapes not just sports, 454 00:26:59,356 --> 00:27:02,676 Speaker 2: but lots of other stuff. A force that steamrolls over 455 00:27:02,756 --> 00:27:14,206 Speaker 2: facts in search of feelings. But this powerful force that's 456 00:27:14,246 --> 00:27:17,026 Speaker 2: inside of us, what happens if it can be exploited 457 00:27:17,086 --> 00:27:20,766 Speaker 2: in new ways? What happens if, like, technology changes or 458 00:27:20,806 --> 00:27:24,416 Speaker 2: laws change so that it can be monetized? Almost like 459 00:27:24,456 --> 00:27:28,036 Speaker 2: a natural resource. What if you can frack the fan? 460 00:27:29,036 --> 00:27:31,056 Speaker 2: That's where we're going with this season of Against the Rules, 461 00:27:31,136 --> 00:27:35,156 Speaker 2: because the fracking, it's already happening. Right under our noses. 462 00:27:39,906 --> 00:27:41,046 Speaker 3: This isn't fantasy as usual. 463 00:27:41,686 --> 00:27:42,826 Speaker 2: This is DraftKings. 464 00:27:42,966 --> 00:27:44,736 Speaker 3: It was one of these things like, wow, we never 465 00:27:44,806 --> 00:27:45,436 Speaker 3: get this lucky. 466 00:27:45,806 --> 00:27:47,196 Speaker 5: I mean, this changed everything. 467 00:27:47,396 --> 00:27:48,996 Speaker 3: Welcome to the big time. 468 00:27:49,356 --> 00:27:50,836 Speaker 2: Did you turn to him and say, do you know 469 00:27:50,876 --> 00:27:55,236 Speaker 2: why you can do this? No. He knew. Redeem your 470 00:27:55,276 --> 00:27:57,676 Speaker 2: season on FanDuel. Play free until you win. 471 00:27:58,156 --> 00:27:59,916 Speaker 1: FanDuel. More ways to win. 472 00:28:00,116 --> 00:28:00,516 Speaker 3: Hello. 473 00:28:01,376 --> 00:28:03,896 Speaker 1: I'm at dinner again, and I just placed the dumbest 474 00:28:03,916 --> 00:28:04,456 Speaker 1: bet of my life. 475 00:28:04,876 --> 00:28:17,836 Speaker 2: Get to DraftKings.com. Against the Rules is written and hosted 476 00:28:17,876 --> 00:28:20,486 Speaker 2: by me, Michael Lewis, and produced by Lydia Jean Cott, 477 00:28:20,546 --> 00:28:24,706 Speaker 2: Catherine Gerardot, and Ariella Markowitz. Our editor is Julia Barton. 478 00:28:25,146 --> 00:28:28,366 Speaker 2: Our engineer is Jake Gorski. Our music was composed by 479 00:28:28,406 --> 00:28:33,136 Speaker 2: Matthias Bossi and John Evans of Stellwagen Symphonette. Our fact 480 00:28:33,176 --> 00:28:37,096 Speaker 2: checker is Lauren Vespoli. Against the Rules is a production 481 00:28:37,116 --> 00:28:41,516 Speaker 2: of Pushkin Industries. To find more Pushkin Podcasts, Listen on 482 00:28:41,536 --> 00:28:45,976 Speaker 2: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 483 00:28:46,876 --> 00:28:49,116 Speaker 2: And if you'd like to listen ad-free and learn about 484 00:28:49,216 --> 00:28:52,256 Speaker 2: other exclusive offerings, don't forget to sign up for a 485 00:28:52,336 --> 00:28:57,966 Speaker 2: Pushkin Plus subscription at pushkin.fm slash plus or on our 486 00:28:57,996 --> 00:28:58,756 Speaker 2: Apple show page. 487 00:29:06,206 --> 00:29:09,866 Speaker 1: One way to cope. Yeah, no, seriously. Now, OK, I 488 00:29:09,886 --> 00:29:13,016 Speaker 1: got a story. I got a story for all this. OK, no, no, no, no. 489 00:29:13,856 --> 00:29:18,716 Speaker 1: One lady said that the night before her football team 490 00:29:18,736 --> 00:29:22,106 Speaker 1: or college football team's games, that for good luck, she 491 00:29:22,206 --> 00:29:26,386 Speaker 1: makes her husband make love to her wearing the team's jersey. 492 00:29:26,816 --> 00:29:29,846 Speaker 1: and socks and the team's colors. And ever since I 493 00:29:29,886 --> 00:29:32,066 Speaker 1: read that, I thought no one looks for the college 494 00:29:32,106 --> 00:29:36,086 Speaker 1: football season more than her husband, right? He's like, he's 495 00:29:36,126 --> 00:29:40,256 Speaker 1: looking for the socks. Exactly. Where did I put those? 496 00:29:40,376 --> 00:29:41,836 Speaker 5: Oh no, I lost the socks. 497 00:29:42,196 --> 00:29:43,096 Speaker 1: Those lucky socks. 498 00:29:43,276 --> 00:29:44,376 Speaker 5: Will one sock do? 499 00:29:44,856 --> 00:29:47,506 Speaker 1: No, listen, you wear the lucky socks and you get lucky. 500 00:29:57,156 --> 00:29:59,476 Speaker 2: The same year Trump's name was being plastered onto the 501 00:29:59,536 --> 00:30:02,336 Speaker 2: side of the U.S. Institute of Peace, the East Wing 502 00:30:02,356 --> 00:30:04,396 Speaker 2: of the White House was being torn down to build 503 00:30:04,416 --> 00:30:07,846 Speaker 2: the President Donald J. Trump Ballroom. And the Kennedy Center 504 00:30:07,876 --> 00:30:09,876 Speaker 2: was on its way to becoming the Donald J. Trump 505 00:30:10,356 --> 00:30:13,736 Speaker 2: and the John F. Kennedy Memorial Center for the Performing Arts. 506 00:30:14,916 --> 00:30:19,496 Speaker 2: A foreign visa, government savings accounts for children, and a 507 00:30:19,536 --> 00:30:23,096 Speaker 2: prescription drug program were also all being named for Trump. 508 00:30:24,196 --> 00:30:26,856 Speaker 2: And White House staff had taken the trouble to redesign 509 00:30:26,916 --> 00:30:30,756 Speaker 2: an annual pass to America's national parks with Trump's face 510 00:30:30,816 --> 00:30:34,826 Speaker 2: on it. On the National Mall, a giant new Trump 511 00:30:34,886 --> 00:30:38,236 Speaker 2: banner said, paired with one of Abraham Lincoln, rippled down 512 00:30:38,276 --> 00:30:42,256 Speaker 2: the facade of the Department of Agriculture. Republicans in Congress 513 00:30:42,316 --> 00:30:45,756 Speaker 2: were proposing bills to rename Dulles International Airport for Trump, 514 00:30:46,716 --> 00:30:51,026 Speaker 2: carve Trump's face on Mount Rushmore, create both a $ 250 515 00:30:50,626 --> 00:30:55,466 Speaker 2: and $ 500 bill to honor Trump, make a federal holiday 516 00:30:55,526 --> 00:30:59,166 Speaker 2: of Trump's birthday, and erect a triumphal arch taller than 517 00:30:59,206 --> 00:31:03,836 Speaker 2: the Lincoln Memorial, nicknamed Arc de Trump. All of this 518 00:31:03,856 --> 00:31:07,206 Speaker 2: was obviously kind of weird, No other president had ever 519 00:31:07,346 --> 00:31:11,206 Speaker 2: used the office so energetically to promote his personal brand. 520 00:31:12,066 --> 00:31:16,376 Speaker 2: But the environment had changed. It tolerated some new behaviors 521 00:31:17,066 --> 00:31:21,736 Speaker 2: and discouraged some old ones. It took Tim Curry a 522 00:31:21,776 --> 00:31:24,516 Speaker 2: surprisingly long time to see what this shift in the 523 00:31:24,576 --> 00:31:28,456 Speaker 2: climate meant for him. At first, he assumed it meant nothing. 524 00:31:29,776 --> 00:31:33,326 Speaker 2: During the first Trump administration, he'd been perfectly satisfied with 525 00:31:33,386 --> 00:31:36,836 Speaker 2: his job, Those four years had felt to him much 526 00:31:36,876 --> 00:31:39,856 Speaker 2: like the previous 21, at least until the very end. 527 00:31:40,856 --> 00:31:42,856 Speaker 2: A Democrat would win the White House and ask Tim 528 00:31:42,916 --> 00:31:45,856 Speaker 2: to inflict some new set of policies upon the federal workforce. 529 00:31:46,966 --> 00:31:49,526 Speaker 2: A Republican would win the next time and ask Tim 530 00:31:49,566 --> 00:31:53,406 Speaker 2: to inflict a nearly opposite set of policies. One day, 531 00:31:53,426 --> 00:31:55,966 Speaker 2: no employee of the U.S. government was required to get 532 00:31:56,026 --> 00:32:01,386 Speaker 2: the COVID vaccine. The next day, everyone was. Trump to 533 00:32:01,406 --> 00:32:04,006 Speaker 2: Biden had been a jolt, but so were all the others. 534 00:32:05,106 --> 00:32:08,426 Speaker 2: Those kind of jolts didn't bother Tim. For his deft 535 00:32:08,526 --> 00:32:11,076 Speaker 2: management of the vaccine policy, he'd been given the country's 536 00:32:11,156 --> 00:32:16,236 Speaker 2: highest civil service honor, the Presidential Distinguished Rank Award, conferred 537 00:32:16,276 --> 00:32:20,516 Speaker 2: on only 1% of the Senior Executive Service, SES. But 538 00:32:20,576 --> 00:32:23,456 Speaker 2: if they'd asked him to somehow extract the vaccines from 539 00:32:23,496 --> 00:32:26,256 Speaker 2: the bodies of the entire federal workforce, he'd have done 540 00:32:26,296 --> 00:32:29,246 Speaker 2: that too. Tim would joke that his job is to 541 00:32:29,286 --> 00:32:31,986 Speaker 2: spend four years doing something and then spend the next 542 00:32:32,046 --> 00:32:35,486 Speaker 2: four years undoing it, one colleague said. but he's okay 543 00:32:35,526 --> 00:32:40,236 Speaker 2: with it. Tim worked in the Office of Personnel Management, OPM. 544 00:32:40,976 --> 00:32:46,296 Speaker 2: His official title was Deputy Associate Director, Accountability and Workforce Relations. 545 00:32:47,336 --> 00:32:49,516 Speaker 2: But that didn't help explain what he did all day. 546 00:32:50,356 --> 00:32:52,796 Speaker 2: The small box he was in charge of, three levels 547 00:32:52,856 --> 00:32:56,696 Speaker 2: down the OPM org chart, had changed names over the decades. 548 00:32:57,836 --> 00:33:00,356 Speaker 2: But its two roles were probably as old as the 549 00:33:00,396 --> 00:33:05,426 Speaker 2: nonpartisan civil service. It refereed disputes between government managers and 550 00:33:05,466 --> 00:33:11,476 Speaker 2: workers and oversaw negotiations between government agencies and unions. OPM 551 00:33:11,496 --> 00:33:14,416 Speaker 2: was sort of a meta-agency, a handful of people who 552 00:33:14,476 --> 00:33:17,936 Speaker 2: helped the people who helped the people. It was small 553 00:33:17,976 --> 00:33:21,116 Speaker 2: and obscure and designed to kill the curiosity of all 554 00:33:21,156 --> 00:33:24,636 Speaker 2: but the most hardcore good government types. But it offered 555 00:33:24,656 --> 00:33:28,116 Speaker 2: the best perch inside the U.S. government to see and 556 00:33:28,136 --> 00:33:32,676 Speaker 2: control all of it. Still, on their weekly calls, Tim's father, 557 00:33:32,986 --> 00:33:36,846 Speaker 2: would occasionally ask him, one more time, to explain his job. 558 00:33:37,926 --> 00:33:40,506 Speaker 2: It took years for my dad to understand what I did, 559 00:33:40,716 --> 00:33:43,796 Speaker 2: said Tim. He'd get confused and think I work for 560 00:33:43,836 --> 00:33:47,016 Speaker 2: a union. Part of the problem, part of the reason 561 00:33:47,036 --> 00:33:48,936 Speaker 2: it was hard to see what he did, was that 562 00:33:48,996 --> 00:33:51,496 Speaker 2: so much of what he did was preventative. He was 563 00:33:51,536 --> 00:33:54,736 Speaker 2: himself a kind of vaccine. If he did his job well, 564 00:33:55,396 --> 00:33:59,186 Speaker 2: it meant that some massive workplace injustice or scandal didn't happen. 565 00:34:00,176 --> 00:34:01,816 Speaker 2: He wasn't a lawyer, but he spent a lot of 566 00:34:01,856 --> 00:34:05,656 Speaker 2: his time explaining laws to people. He wasn't an arbitrator, 567 00:34:06,016 --> 00:34:07,736 Speaker 2: but he spent a lot of time being yelled at 568 00:34:08,036 --> 00:34:10,836 Speaker 2: by both union leaders and the heads of federal agencies, 569 00:34:11,196 --> 00:34:14,586 Speaker 2: and then, when they were finished yelling, selling both sides 570 00:34:14,646 --> 00:34:18,046 Speaker 2: on a solution to the problem. It's hard to explain 571 00:34:18,086 --> 00:34:20,546 Speaker 2: the connection between Tim's job and the speed with which 572 00:34:20,566 --> 00:34:24,326 Speaker 2: you get your tax refund, said one former OPM political appointee, 573 00:34:25,086 --> 00:34:28,416 Speaker 2: but there is a connection. Tim's needed for the government 574 00:34:28,456 --> 00:34:32,736 Speaker 2: to work. Another political person described Tim Curry as OPM's 575 00:34:33,216 --> 00:34:37,476 Speaker 2: bus person. Bus people, he explained, are people who if 576 00:34:37,496 --> 00:34:40,246 Speaker 2: they are hit by a bus, the government stops working. 577 00:34:41,546 --> 00:34:44,666 Speaker 2: All the political appointees, the temporary heads of the agencies 578 00:34:44,726 --> 00:34:48,346 Speaker 2: installed by the president, came around to this opinion. Even 579 00:34:48,386 --> 00:34:52,506 Speaker 2: the Trump political appointees, who in theory despise the federal government. 580 00:34:53,416 --> 00:34:57,306 Speaker 2: The very people who would cook up Project 2025, the 581 00:34:57,326 --> 00:35:01,546 Speaker 2: 900-page manifesto that proposed to dismantle the government, would also 582 00:35:01,626 --> 00:35:04,166 Speaker 2: poke their heads into Tim's office to seek his help. 583 00:35:05,046 --> 00:35:08,066 Speaker 2: They needed Tim Curry because Tim Curry was the only 584 00:35:08,166 --> 00:35:11,686 Speaker 2: one inside the United States government that everyone in any 585 00:35:11,726 --> 00:35:14,556 Speaker 2: particular dispute was happy to deal with.