WEBVTT - Critical Race Theory in the Classroom 0:00:14.036 --> 0:00:22.116 Push it. Joan is going in eighth grade. I mean, 0:00:22.196 --> 0:00:24.516 do you even remember eighth grade in terms of what 0:00:24.516 --> 0:00:30.556 what you are? Oh? Man? Uh? First day of eighth grade. Uh, 0:00:30.596 --> 0:00:32.196 you know, we felt like we were the big shots 0:00:32.196 --> 0:00:34.516 of the school, this public high school in Hyde Park. 0:00:35.076 --> 0:00:37.676 And we have a new teacher that walks into the 0:00:37.716 --> 0:00:40.796 classroom on the very first day. His name is mister Leon. 0:00:40.876 --> 0:00:44.236 I'll never forget him. And he walks into He walks 0:00:44.236 --> 0:00:48.556 into the classroom by slamming the door as hard as 0:00:48.596 --> 0:00:51.836 he can behind him and and pulling off this like 0:00:51.956 --> 0:00:55.836 blackboard jungle bullshit where he starts screaming at us. Wait 0:00:57.396 --> 0:01:00.196 in that movie. Now he's he's a white guy, and 0:01:01.076 --> 0:01:04.236 you know, and the class is, you know, very multiracial, 0:01:04.556 --> 0:01:07.716 and the first thing out of his mouth is, hey, kiddos, 0:01:08.196 --> 0:01:14.876 I'm not a racist. I hate everybody. That's nuts. That's 0:01:14.876 --> 0:01:18.636 a greeting to us. That was our multi racial education. 0:01:21.476 --> 0:01:25.116 I'm Khalil Jibron Muhammad and I'm Ben Austin. We're two 0:01:25.116 --> 0:01:28.836 best friends, one black, one white. I'm a historian and 0:01:28.916 --> 0:01:31.276 I'm a journalist. And this is some of my best 0:01:31.316 --> 0:01:34.476 friends are as in I'm not a racist. Some of 0:01:34.516 --> 0:01:37.676 my best friends are dot dot dot dot dot. In 0:01:37.796 --> 0:01:41.596 this show, we wrestle with the challenges and the absurdities 0:01:41.956 --> 0:01:46.556 of a deeply divided and unequal country. And on today's episode, 0:01:47.036 --> 0:01:51.556 we're gonna look closely at how the teaching of American history, 0:01:52.396 --> 0:01:56.316 specifically the history of race and racism, helps explain the 0:01:56.436 --> 0:01:59.436 actual country we live in. You know, as you say 0:01:59.436 --> 0:02:03.076 at the start of every episode, I'm the historian, so 0:02:03.636 --> 0:02:06.676 you're the perfect partner for this, that's right. That Yeah, well, 0:02:07.156 --> 0:02:11.076 occasionally my expertise will matter in this conversation. How about that? 0:02:12.236 --> 0:02:14.836 All right? All right, one oh one, that's our class. 0:02:14.876 --> 0:02:26.796 The bell is ringing. Here we are at the start 0:02:26.836 --> 0:02:30.316 of another school year, and along with our kids going 0:02:30.356 --> 0:02:34.316 back to classes and all our anxiety and uncertainty about 0:02:34.356 --> 0:02:38.156 the coronavirus, there's also this assault on what can be 0:02:38.236 --> 0:02:42.036 taught in classrooms not a schools, and a flashpoint issue 0:02:42.196 --> 0:02:45.276 how to teach and discuss race in America's classrooms. Tonight 0:02:45.316 --> 0:02:48.076 we look at our children's history lessons in the curricula 0:02:48.156 --> 0:02:51.196 at the center of controversy. Yeah, I mean, it's a 0:02:51.356 --> 0:02:55.316 it's an incredible moment because after everything that's happened over 0:02:55.316 --> 0:02:59.476 the past eighteen months. You know, there's this great opportunity 0:02:59.556 --> 0:03:04.276 to finally, you know, reckon with our past and socialize 0:03:04.276 --> 0:03:08.036 a whole generation of kids about like what our country 0:03:08.156 --> 0:03:12.116 is and what it can be. And yet in so 0:03:12.156 --> 0:03:15.916 many states, at least twelve states have actually banned the 0:03:16.036 --> 0:03:20.236 teaching of race and racism, and at least another seventeen 0:03:20.356 --> 0:03:24.756 are trying to pass legislation. It's crazy. So these legislative 0:03:24.796 --> 0:03:29.916 acts have centered as their primary target a more expansive 0:03:30.076 --> 0:03:34.236 understanding of how racism has evolved in America and the 0:03:34.396 --> 0:03:38.356 justification for this in these laws. I've looked at several 0:03:38.396 --> 0:03:41.956 of them. In the case of Iowa in particular, says 0:03:41.996 --> 0:03:46.876 these are quote unquote divisive concepts, and because they're divisive 0:03:46.916 --> 0:03:50.756 concepts and because they traffic in what they say is 0:03:50.916 --> 0:03:55.196 race stereotyping, then at the end of the day, they're 0:03:55.236 --> 0:03:59.076 basically saying, if people feel uncomfortable with you talking about 0:03:59.116 --> 0:04:03.156 any kind of racism or it implies that white people 0:04:03.516 --> 0:04:06.556 have done things to black people, that feels like a stereotype. 0:04:06.916 --> 0:04:09.756 It's out of bounds. And it has created a situation 0:04:09.756 --> 0:04:15.196 where teachers have been targeted by administration, by school boards 0:04:15.276 --> 0:04:17.476 in such a way that it's creating a chilling effect 0:04:17.476 --> 0:04:19.956 in the classroom. Yeah, so you said twelve states have 0:04:19.996 --> 0:04:24.556 passed laws restricting the teaching of racism. Twenty nine states 0:04:24.556 --> 0:04:27.676 in total are at least considering similar bands. That's crazy. 0:04:28.716 --> 0:04:31.796 You mentioned the Iowa one, but I saw that in Florida, 0:04:31.836 --> 0:04:34.876 the States school Board voted unanimously to ban the teaching 0:04:34.916 --> 0:04:39.876 of the sixteen nineteen Project and critical race theory. In Alabama, 0:04:40.156 --> 0:04:44.076 the school superintendent proposed a resolution where you can't teach 0:04:44.116 --> 0:04:48.396 concepts that quote oppress others. And one part of that 0:04:48.476 --> 0:04:52.316 resolution they say the United States is not inherently racist, 0:04:52.596 --> 0:04:58.156 and also the state of Alabama is not inherently racist. Right. Yeah, Oklahoma, 0:04:58.196 --> 0:05:02.276 you can't teach the myth of meritocracy. You know, Texas, 0:05:02.636 --> 0:05:06.276 you can't teach political activism. There's an Arizona law that 0:05:06.316 --> 0:05:09.476 you quote. You can't teach any form of blame or 0:05:09.636 --> 0:05:13.676 judgment on the basis of race, ethnicity, or sex. Conservatives 0:05:13.676 --> 0:05:16.516 are arguing now that if you teach about racism, then 0:05:16.556 --> 0:05:19.516 in fact, you are the racist. I know, it's crazy. 0:05:21.836 --> 0:05:24.716 So let's talk about why this was so controversial, the 0:05:24.796 --> 0:05:27.596 sixteen nineteen project, and why there was such a backlash 0:05:27.636 --> 0:05:37.316 against it and why it made people so uncomfortable. Let's 0:05:37.356 --> 0:05:40.676 talk first about the sixteen nineteen Project. Yeah, that's exactly 0:05:40.676 --> 0:05:43.156 where we need to start, because it's it's because of 0:05:43.156 --> 0:05:45.916 its publication two years ago that this current round of 0:05:45.916 --> 0:05:49.556 attacks you know, first got got started. It was fuel 0:05:49.596 --> 0:05:51.996 for that fire. Yeah, yeah, this is really where the 0:05:52.036 --> 0:05:54.636 story we're telling today begins. So I know a lot 0:05:54.636 --> 0:05:57.556 of listeners will have read the sixteen nineteen Project, but 0:05:57.596 --> 0:05:59.756 for those who haven't, I mean, this was an incredible 0:06:01.076 --> 0:06:04.836 project born out of the imagination of Nicole Hannah Jones. 0:06:05.116 --> 0:06:07.596 So I've been thinking about the year sixteen nineteen since 0:06:07.636 --> 0:06:09.956 I was in high school and across that date in 0:06:09.956 --> 0:06:12.836 a book called Before the Mayflower, and I just was 0:06:12.876 --> 0:06:15.876 struck by how people of African descent had been here 0:06:15.956 --> 0:06:18.076 that long and I never knew that data, never heard 0:06:18.076 --> 0:06:21.276 about it. So as the anniversary was approaching the four 0:06:21.396 --> 0:06:23.676 hundredth year, I thought that this was a time to 0:06:23.756 --> 0:06:27.916 actually assess what is that legacy been and to bring 0:06:27.956 --> 0:06:31.476 this year sixteen nineteen to most American households where it 0:06:31.556 --> 0:06:34.076 was probably going to pass without them knowing. She's an 0:06:34.116 --> 0:06:39.916 investigative journalist and senior writer for the New York Times magazine. 0:06:39.476 --> 0:06:44.876 She wanted to commemorate the four hundredth anniversary of the 0:06:45.636 --> 0:06:50.276 sort of official arrival of twenty or thirty enslaved Africans 0:06:50.756 --> 0:06:55.876 to Jamestown, Virginia in sixteen nineteen. Right, So this this 0:06:55.916 --> 0:06:59.916 project was published in August of twenty nineteen, and she 0:07:00.316 --> 0:07:05.076 assembled this incredible group of journalists and historians. Incredible group 0:07:05.156 --> 0:07:08.116 of historians because you were one of those historians. I mean, really, 0:07:08.156 --> 0:07:13.156 they were incredible. Right. I did write an essay on sugar, 0:07:13.676 --> 0:07:16.956 the long history of sugar as the basis for European 0:07:17.476 --> 0:07:21.076 conquest and settler colonialism. That is, you know, Europeans coming 0:07:21.116 --> 0:07:24.676 here and staying, particularly in North America, so you know, 0:07:24.756 --> 0:07:29.956 everything in this effort to center the presence of black 0:07:29.996 --> 0:07:34.356 people as an indispensable part of the American story that 0:07:34.436 --> 0:07:39.476 basically you can't understand the country today without understanding all 0:07:39.516 --> 0:07:42.036 these connections that go back to the very beginning. So 0:07:42.076 --> 0:07:44.836 this was published first in the New York Times magazine 0:07:44.836 --> 0:07:47.436 that filled up an entire issue. Yes, that's right. So 0:07:47.476 --> 0:07:52.636 the magazine for this issue dedicated the entire magazine, which 0:07:52.676 --> 0:07:56.956 is unusual. So there were several essays on history there 0:07:56.956 --> 0:08:03.236 were creative writing, there was graphics, and the magazine itself 0:08:03.716 --> 0:08:09.556 became a kind of cultural touchstone for a broader conver station, 0:08:09.876 --> 0:08:13.916 you know, tied to Black Lives Matter, tied to racial reckonings, 0:08:13.996 --> 0:08:18.956 and there were lines around the building when the magazine 0:08:19.036 --> 0:08:21.516 was selling the print edition aside from what people got 0:08:21.556 --> 0:08:24.276 in their Sunday newspaper. You know, I know you're downplaying 0:08:24.316 --> 0:08:26.116 your role in it, but I'm really I'm really proud 0:08:26.116 --> 0:08:28.876 of you. I mean, you're you're a major contributor for this, 0:08:28.916 --> 0:08:31.916 and this is now in book form and you're in 0:08:31.956 --> 0:08:38.236 a best seller. Well, James Patterson, I'm not sure I 0:08:38.236 --> 0:08:40.436 can take credit for that, but but but I can't 0:08:40.436 --> 0:08:43.716 say that Nicole's work, the editor's work, did win a 0:08:43.756 --> 0:08:48.316 Pulitzer Prize, and that's a certainly a really big deal. 0:08:48.516 --> 0:08:51.996 And what a visionary she is for this, I mean, 0:08:51.996 --> 0:08:57.756 to really to really sort of demand of us to 0:08:57.756 --> 0:09:01.316 to take a different historical look on the country and 0:09:01.436 --> 0:09:05.876 to think about our origin stories in our beginnings, and then, 0:09:05.876 --> 0:09:08.796 as you said, forcing us to see everything that comes 0:09:08.836 --> 0:09:11.836 after through it through a different lens. Yeah, that's right. So, 0:09:11.876 --> 0:09:15.956 of course, when I saw Nichols call for for people 0:09:15.996 --> 0:09:19.756 like me to contribute. I jumped at it and I'm happy, 0:09:19.996 --> 0:09:22.236 you know, continue to be proud of this work. And 0:09:22.636 --> 0:09:26.116 you know, with the book coming out soon this fall, 0:09:26.356 --> 0:09:31.236 it's it's incredible and we'll see we'll see not only 0:09:31.676 --> 0:09:34.516 people responding positively to it, but we'll also see, you know, 0:09:34.596 --> 0:09:37.196 more backlash against the significance of this work. So in 0:09:37.236 --> 0:09:41.116 September twenty twenty, Donald Trump tweets, of course, and what 0:09:41.196 --> 0:09:43.196 a great thing not to say that anymore, like did 0:09:43.196 --> 0:09:46.836 you see Donald Trump? Sat? But right? Trump responds to 0:09:46.876 --> 0:09:50.676 a tweet about California teaching the sixteen nineteen project and 0:09:50.716 --> 0:09:54.156 its schools, and he says that the Department of Education 0:09:54.196 --> 0:09:56.636 will look into it and it will defund the state 0:09:56.716 --> 0:09:59.716 if he if he finds evidence of that. M Yeah, 0:09:59.716 --> 0:10:02.036 of course he has no he has no authority whatsoever 0:10:02.236 --> 0:10:05.596 exactly right states control education. So what he does is 0:10:05.596 --> 0:10:08.196 he goes on to issue an executive order that bands 0:10:08.236 --> 0:10:11.716 diversity train in federal agencies and also in companies that 0:10:11.756 --> 0:10:14.556 do business with the federal government. So he doesn't mean 0:10:14.636 --> 0:10:18.116 just diversity and inclusion training. He actually says something that 0:10:18.196 --> 0:10:22.076 isn't true. He says, you can't talk about America as 0:10:22.116 --> 0:10:26.156 irredeemably racist and sexist. But nobody who does diversity training 0:10:26.196 --> 0:10:29.596 talks about America as irredeemably racist and sexist. They might 0:10:29.676 --> 0:10:33.236 talk about the problem of racism and sexism, but this 0:10:33.356 --> 0:10:37.076 irredeemable aspect, this notion that there's nothing we can do 0:10:37.116 --> 0:10:40.596 about it, is the boogeyman in the conversation. And that's 0:10:40.596 --> 0:10:42.556 a thing that gets people so riled up. And that's 0:10:42.596 --> 0:10:44.956 why he's had such support for this, had such support, 0:10:44.956 --> 0:10:47.596 And now it's continuing and we finally nail Trump and 0:10:47.636 --> 0:10:50.956 we catch him on saying something that isn't true. This 0:10:51.036 --> 0:10:54.356 is the journalistic moment. Some of my best friends are 0:10:54.756 --> 0:10:58.236 we did it, good work, but no. But it's such 0:10:58.276 --> 0:11:02.196 a subtle thing because if you keep saying that something 0:11:02.236 --> 0:11:06.516 that's not happening, then reasonable people can be upset about. 0:11:06.996 --> 0:11:09.636 And that's why this thing is metastic. So then he 0:11:09.716 --> 0:11:11.956 takes it further. Of course, at the start of the 0:11:11.996 --> 0:11:14.876 school year last year, so in September twenty twenty, the 0:11:14.916 --> 0:11:18.596 Trump administration announces that they're going to form something called 0:11:18.636 --> 0:11:23.396 the seventeen seventy six Commission, a Patriotic Education Commission. It's 0:11:23.396 --> 0:11:27.196 a direct response to the sixteen nineteen project, and Trump 0:11:27.276 --> 0:11:30.396 goes on to say, he says, quote, they're a crusade 0:11:30.396 --> 0:11:33.796 against American history, which is what we're talking about today. 0:11:34.036 --> 0:11:37.356 And he says, instead, what the country must focus on, 0:11:37.556 --> 0:11:40.956 what classrooms must focus on, is quote the legacy of 0:11:41.076 --> 0:11:45.796 seventeen seventy six. So forget about that sixteen nineteen. Let's 0:11:45.796 --> 0:11:48.836 go back to this declaration, back to everything that every 0:11:48.836 --> 0:11:52.876 school child has already learned about the basic story of 0:11:52.916 --> 0:11:56.676 the American Revolution. Yeah, there's a larger, sort of an 0:11:56.716 --> 0:11:59.756 ah historical attack going on that sort of wrapped up 0:11:59.756 --> 0:12:03.316 in this idea of critical race theory, and there's a 0:12:03.356 --> 0:12:05.996 sort of fewer at the start of the school year 0:12:06.036 --> 0:12:08.436 that we're you know, who's teaching this. We talked about 0:12:08.436 --> 0:12:11.076 this at the top of the episode, but that's really 0:12:11.236 --> 0:12:13.356 part of what's going on here, right, Yeah, Yeah, Well, 0:12:13.356 --> 0:12:16.036 I think we owe it to our listeners to actually 0:12:16.036 --> 0:12:19.556 define what critical race theory is. Yeah, let's do it. So, 0:12:19.996 --> 0:12:25.276 first of all, it is, strictly speaking, a legal theory 0:12:26.556 --> 0:12:32.476 and historical approach that began in the nineteen eighties, led 0:12:32.516 --> 0:12:35.716 by at the time a Harvard law professor, an African 0:12:35.716 --> 0:12:40.476 American man named Derek Bell and also by a African 0:12:40.516 --> 0:12:45.396 American legal scholar, Kimberly Crenshaw. And the basic approach to 0:12:45.436 --> 0:12:50.916 critical race theory then and now was to literally understand 0:12:51.396 --> 0:12:56.596 the legal history of racism, which means, ultimately critical race 0:12:56.636 --> 0:12:59.836 theory was very, very much interested in the limits of 0:12:59.836 --> 0:13:02.636 the law to wrestle with the problem of racism, going 0:13:02.716 --> 0:13:05.076 back to the beginning all the way up to the present, 0:13:05.476 --> 0:13:08.756 even including affirmative action and antidiscrimination law. And why is 0:13:08.756 --> 0:13:12.076 this important? This is important because what critical race theory 0:13:12.116 --> 0:13:15.876 as a legal concept did, and it's still relevant, is 0:13:16.556 --> 0:13:20.876 we still have limitations in our law with respect to 0:13:21.076 --> 0:13:24.516 dealing with the consequences of structural racism. The fact that 0:13:24.596 --> 0:13:29.796 any company might actually choose, let's just say, a preferential approach, 0:13:30.156 --> 0:13:33.836 even a reparative or reparations approach to redress its own 0:13:33.876 --> 0:13:38.036 history of discrimination is actually illegal in our law. And 0:13:38.116 --> 0:13:40.716 critical race theorists wanted to point that out because it 0:13:40.796 --> 0:13:43.796 wanted to say, we have very limited tools legally to 0:13:43.996 --> 0:13:48.876 deal with this massive structure of racism and inequality, and 0:13:49.196 --> 0:13:51.916 that's it. That's what critical race theory is. Yeah, yeah, 0:13:51.916 --> 0:13:53.716 I was going to say, this is a pretty obscure 0:13:53.876 --> 0:14:01.356 academic take and discipline looking at structural racism. It's not listen, 0:14:01.436 --> 0:14:04.676 it's not something you're a historian of this, it's it's 0:14:04.716 --> 0:14:07.676 not a term that I was especially familiar with before 0:14:08.076 --> 0:14:10.236 the right started throw it in my face and saying 0:14:10.276 --> 0:14:14.036 it's everywhere, that's right, that's right. So it has become 0:14:14.196 --> 0:14:19.876 a catch all for absolutely any discussion of race or 0:14:19.956 --> 0:14:26.396 racism anywhere, from kindergarten to an old folks nursing home 0:14:26.636 --> 0:14:29.756 where someone might show up have to talk about the 0:14:29.876 --> 0:14:34.236 disproportionate deaths of covid if impacting black and brown residence 0:14:34.236 --> 0:14:36.756 of nursing homes, as my uncle Javan, who was eighty 0:14:36.836 --> 0:14:40.996 died in one in Chicago. Like, that's how ridiculous the 0:14:41.236 --> 0:14:45.396 notion that critical race theory is everywhere and is infecting 0:14:45.596 --> 0:14:50.836 everybody and is a poisonous, toxic ideology unleashed on the 0:14:50.876 --> 0:14:55.156 innocent American public. When we come back, we're going to 0:14:55.236 --> 0:14:59.956 talk about how historian Khalil Jabron Muhammad got swept up 0:14:59.996 --> 0:15:09.236 in these attacks and how we should be teaching history. 0:15:15.876 --> 0:15:20.076 All right, Khalil, So you've been busy teaching outside of 0:15:20.076 --> 0:15:23.516 the classroom as well, and really, you know, I'm thinking 0:15:23.516 --> 0:15:26.676 about after the murder of George Floyd, there was a 0:15:26.756 --> 0:15:30.916 surge of interest in how racism has persisted in the 0:15:30.956 --> 0:15:34.036 country and what we should do about it. You know, 0:15:34.116 --> 0:15:38.316 they're that video that was spread around of the police 0:15:38.316 --> 0:15:41.796 officer in Minneapolis kneeling on the neck of George Floyd 0:15:42.156 --> 0:15:46.476 was sort of an undeniable depiction of injustice and the 0:15:46.516 --> 0:15:49.636 two tier society in America. And so after that there 0:15:49.676 --> 0:15:52.316 were like, you know, books like how to be an 0:15:52.356 --> 0:15:56.156 Anti Racist by our fellow Pushkin podcaster Ibram Kendy and 0:15:56.516 --> 0:16:00.356 White Fragility by Robin D'Angelo. They were flying off the shelves, 0:16:00.836 --> 0:16:04.436 and businesses and corporations were also like, well, we need 0:16:04.476 --> 0:16:08.676 to do something, and some of them made statements, you know, 0:16:08.676 --> 0:16:13.916 they put banners, but they also invited in some scholars 0:16:13.956 --> 0:16:20.236 and others to instruct them about about racism in the country. 0:16:19.876 --> 0:16:22.916 That's where you come in. My friend, you went into 0:16:22.916 --> 0:16:25.156 some of these corporations and I wanted to ask you, like, 0:16:25.196 --> 0:16:28.196 can you tell us what actually did you talk about? 0:16:28.556 --> 0:16:34.516 So the basic ask was help our employees understand what 0:16:34.716 --> 0:16:38.036 is systemic racism? Okay, what is the history of it? 0:16:38.356 --> 0:16:42.676 And that covers everything in the most simple definition from 0:16:42.756 --> 0:16:47.476 the history of colonization, the conquest of indigenous people, to 0:16:47.596 --> 0:16:50.276 the enslavement of people of African descent, to the period 0:16:50.316 --> 0:16:53.636 after slavery of formal segregation in jem Crowe, to a 0:16:53.676 --> 0:16:56.596 history of redlining, to a history of education segregation, to 0:16:56.636 --> 0:17:00.516 a history of financial services and predatory lending, and everything 0:17:00.556 --> 0:17:03.996 we now know both as academics and more increasingly the 0:17:04.036 --> 0:17:08.636 public about what is actually systemic racism. And so that's 0:17:08.636 --> 0:17:12.356 a huge list that you just said, and you certainly 0:17:12.396 --> 0:17:14.956 didn't talk about all of those in each session. I 0:17:15.036 --> 0:17:18.836 pretty much did okay well time as our listeners, as 0:17:18.876 --> 0:17:21.036 our listeners will will will pick up on this show, 0:17:21.076 --> 0:17:23.436 we cover a lot of ground here. Yeah, it's it's 0:17:23.436 --> 0:17:26.276 a pretty it's a it's a heavy lift. But the 0:17:26.356 --> 0:17:31.356 point is to socialize the basic idea that structural racism 0:17:31.476 --> 0:17:35.036 is not a fantasy of some cabal of radical academics, 0:17:35.156 --> 0:17:38.316 but in fact is the history of this nation, and 0:17:38.356 --> 0:17:40.836 the degree to which we want to change the present 0:17:40.916 --> 0:17:42.596 of our nation is the degree to which we have 0:17:42.676 --> 0:17:44.396 to come to terms with the history of the nation. 0:17:45.116 --> 0:17:49.116 And so is what you're teaching. You know, this is 0:17:49.116 --> 0:17:51.476 it like a forty five minute lecture that you're giving 0:17:51.796 --> 0:17:54.956 at a corporation. Is it sort of a thumbnail of 0:17:54.996 --> 0:17:57.396 what you might teach over an entire semester. That's a 0:17:57.476 --> 0:18:00.676 great yep. That's a short answer. Is absolutely. As one 0:18:00.676 --> 0:18:02.876 of my colleagues, a former student of mine, sat at 0:18:02.876 --> 0:18:05.076 Harvard a couple of years ago. She said, Man, Khalil, 0:18:05.276 --> 0:18:07.316 if you could take what you taught me over sixteen 0:18:07.316 --> 0:18:10.596 weeks into a two hour lecture, we could change the world. 0:18:10.916 --> 0:18:13.236 And uh. And that's that's the that's a tall ask 0:18:13.396 --> 0:18:16.036 and it's impossible in a way, but that really is 0:18:16.076 --> 0:18:19.556 the invitation for raising public awareness around these issues. But 0:18:19.676 --> 0:18:23.116 you were recently put on blast for these courses for 0:18:23.196 --> 0:18:25.356 what you what you said in front of some of 0:18:25.396 --> 0:18:28.756 these compresentations, in front of the companies ye for the presentations, 0:18:28.836 --> 0:18:31.876 and you were actually talked about recently by Bill O'Reilly 0:18:32.476 --> 0:18:36.476 critical race theory seminars. Let me give you an example. 0:18:37.356 --> 0:18:41.516 So a recent one featured a guy named Khalil Mohammad. 0:18:42.356 --> 0:18:45.356 He is the great grandson of Nation of Islam founder 0:18:45.396 --> 0:18:51.276 Elijah Mohammad. Pretty bad guy. Elijah Mohammad, pretty bad guy, 0:18:52.276 --> 0:18:57.236 ask Malcolm X. Okay, so his grandson, and you shouldn't 0:18:57.276 --> 0:19:01.156 demonize a grandson because his grandfather was a bad guy. 0:19:01.596 --> 0:19:04.796 Teaches at the Kennedy School at Harvard, my alma mater, 0:19:06.476 --> 0:19:10.596 and he is demanding, is Khalil Mohammad that an American 0:19:10.636 --> 0:19:19.436 Express have reduced costs for black customers. So therefore got 0:19:19.436 --> 0:19:22.796 an American Express court and you will black your interest 0:19:22.876 --> 0:19:28.236 rate below then white last racist. Wow, so you're getting 0:19:28.236 --> 0:19:30.676 attacked by the right wing. What is it you're actually 0:19:30.676 --> 0:19:33.316 doing in these courses that you've done at different businesses? 0:19:33.796 --> 0:19:35.116 What are you what are you teaching there? What are 0:19:35.116 --> 0:19:37.476 you saying? Because clearly you're touching a nerve. Yeah. Sure, 0:19:37.516 --> 0:19:40.636 So this isn't even about one company because the this 0:19:41.316 --> 0:19:44.036 the guy who wrote an article that Bill O'Reilly looked at, 0:19:44.076 --> 0:19:48.876 a guy named Christopher Ruffo, has now sort of found 0:19:48.956 --> 0:19:51.636 social media evidence of a talk I gave out another company. 0:19:51.716 --> 0:19:55.436 So in terms of the actual content, it's the same 0:19:55.516 --> 0:19:58.436 because the history doesn't change. And what I essentially said 0:19:58.716 --> 0:20:05.196 is if you ex company want to be committed to 0:20:05.276 --> 0:20:08.996 racial equity, as you have said in your public statement, 0:20:09.796 --> 0:20:14.396 then you have to decide whether or not your business 0:20:14.436 --> 0:20:20.716 practices are exacerbating or alleviating racial disparities and structural racism 0:20:20.836 --> 0:20:24.316 in American society, and that is the part of the 0:20:24.356 --> 0:20:29.636 conversation that takes the history and then offers a way 0:20:29.636 --> 0:20:32.796 of thinking about what comes next. Let's just talk for 0:20:32.796 --> 0:20:35.196 a second about Elijah Mohammad, like he was wrong. It's 0:20:35.196 --> 0:20:38.476 not your grandfather, it's your great grandfather. But let's you know, 0:20:38.956 --> 0:20:41.556 that's an interesting thing to bring up, you know, as 0:20:41.596 --> 0:20:45.756 a way to identify you. Yeah. Yeah, well listen, first 0:20:45.756 --> 0:20:48.076 of all, it's not a secret, so there's no reveal there. 0:20:48.996 --> 0:20:55.476 My entire career has been shaped by this biographical note. 0:20:55.636 --> 0:20:59.396 I'm very proud of my legacy as the great grandson 0:20:59.436 --> 0:21:02.876 of Elijah Mohammad. The nation of Islam in it today, 0:21:03.236 --> 0:21:06.476 beginning in the forties, fifties, sixties, and certainly helped to 0:21:06.636 --> 0:21:10.156 shape Malcolm X change a lot of black people's lives, 0:21:10.156 --> 0:21:13.956 built a lot of black businesses, was a source of pride, 0:21:14.156 --> 0:21:17.276 was a source of black history. And that's that's the 0:21:17.316 --> 0:21:21.156 absurdity of the way that someone like Bill O'Reilly is 0:21:21.196 --> 0:21:24.716 trying to weaponize who he was, who Malcolm X was, 0:21:24.836 --> 0:21:28.076 and the issues that we face today. Yeah. Yeah, we 0:21:28.076 --> 0:21:31.396 were talking about history and what's being taught. There's also 0:21:31.476 --> 0:21:37.036 this incredible denial of history. There's a denial of truth 0:21:37.076 --> 0:21:39.436 and fact that leads to then those norms are also 0:21:39.476 --> 0:21:42.676 denying them. And there's a sense of you know, there's 0:21:42.676 --> 0:21:46.396 something that seems almost incredibly infantile about it, Like if 0:21:46.396 --> 0:21:49.156 you close your eyes and say it's not there, then 0:21:49.156 --> 0:21:53.796 it's not there. Now it's it's it's way more sinister 0:21:53.876 --> 0:21:57.476 than that, as you said, like it has these implications. Yeah, 0:21:57.756 --> 0:22:02.156 but but you know this is that feeling that it's 0:22:02.236 --> 0:22:06.036 spreading everywhere is what makes people think suddenly, like it's 0:22:06.036 --> 0:22:09.076 in all of our schools, and you know, we talked 0:22:09.156 --> 0:22:13.396 about the states that we're considering laws banning critical race theory, 0:22:14.396 --> 0:22:16.956 and not just in our schools. Now, it's in our 0:22:17.276 --> 0:22:21.396 fortune five hundred companies, which you're purportedly guilty of, you know, 0:22:21.476 --> 0:22:24.596 helping to propagate and permeate. Yeah. So you know, all 0:22:24.916 --> 0:22:30.356 these media hits basically are trying to discredit people like 0:22:30.476 --> 0:22:35.676 me for essentially teaching about the history of race and racism. 0:22:35.716 --> 0:22:39.956 And because I'm now kind of in the crosshairs of 0:22:39.996 --> 0:22:43.956 conservative media, I get these crazy emails and racist phone 0:22:43.956 --> 0:22:47.916 calls from people threatening my life. These people are problems 0:22:47.956 --> 0:22:57.236 with white people, don't you big problems, don't you you're racist? Motherfuckers? 0:22:57.276 --> 0:23:04.316 What you are? Okay, that's what you are? Ilf fly 0:23:04.476 --> 0:23:09.276 halfway across the country. You fly halfway across the country 0:23:09.556 --> 0:23:13.636 and you call me a racist to my face? What 0:23:13.716 --> 0:23:16.916 do you think, Khalil, you get the balls to do them? 0:23:17.636 --> 0:23:19.876 So obviously that guy hasn't listened to our show yet, 0:23:19.916 --> 0:23:23.356 Like now that you're talking to that just goes to 0:23:23.396 --> 0:23:27.236 show you, man, how the bad a shape we're in, right, 0:23:27.316 --> 0:23:30.516 Like the idea that I don't know white people or 0:23:30.636 --> 0:23:33.036 talk to white people, like black people are twelve percent 0:23:33.036 --> 0:23:37.196 of the population. You can't you can't live past five 0:23:37.596 --> 0:23:39.956 as a black person and not have a conversation with 0:23:40.036 --> 0:23:43.716 white person. But anyway, yeah, here I am talking to you. Yeah. 0:23:43.756 --> 0:23:47.436 So kind of the brilliance of these people is also 0:23:47.516 --> 0:23:51.356 to co opt the very language that helps us to 0:23:51.956 --> 0:23:55.956 situate ourselves in history, helps us to be able to 0:23:55.996 --> 0:23:59.476 say we've actually learned something from the past. And that's 0:23:59.516 --> 0:24:04.596 what makes this so difficult. And that's that is the 0:24:04.676 --> 0:24:08.356 situation we face today in part a legacy of how 0:24:08.636 --> 0:24:11.356 how or a job of history we've actually done. I 0:24:11.396 --> 0:24:13.996 would really love to hear you talk more about why 0:24:14.036 --> 0:24:17.596 the sixteen nineteen project and critical race theory sort of 0:24:17.596 --> 0:24:20.036 with your own sense of teaching history is so effective. 0:24:21.756 --> 0:24:23.676 You know, what is the way that you want to 0:24:23.716 --> 0:24:25.836 teach history? What is the way that you want American 0:24:25.876 --> 0:24:29.596 history taught? Yeah? Yeah, Well, well I appreciate that because 0:24:29.876 --> 0:24:32.676 it is the work that I've been doing for a 0:24:32.796 --> 0:24:38.796 quarter century. And from my vantage point, history is always 0:24:38.836 --> 0:24:41.636 debatable as to how much evidence in weight or it 0:24:41.636 --> 0:24:44.276 should say interpretive weight you put on a point. So, 0:24:44.556 --> 0:24:47.076 and I'll say that that the sense of myth and 0:24:47.156 --> 0:24:49.556 reality are always in tension. When we're talking about a 0:24:49.556 --> 0:24:52.916 country's history, it's tied up with our national identity. So 0:24:52.956 --> 0:24:56.196 there's always this tension, this conflict between what we mythologize 0:24:56.436 --> 0:25:00.796 and what was real, what really happened. Yeah, no, absolutely, 0:25:01.036 --> 0:25:03.916 And so to answer the question, I think first we 0:25:03.956 --> 0:25:06.276 have I have to say that in the quarter century, 0:25:07.756 --> 0:25:10.396 I've taught a lot of student who opted into my 0:25:10.476 --> 0:25:14.396 class and expressed to me at the undergraduate level. At 0:25:14.396 --> 0:25:17.476 the graduate level, I remember teaching a group of future 0:25:17.556 --> 0:25:20.476 teachers like, oh my god, I can't believe I never 0:25:20.596 --> 0:25:24.796 learned any of this. And again that and what is this? 0:25:26.956 --> 0:25:31.596 This is that the problem was much more deeply entrenched 0:25:31.636 --> 0:25:35.316 in the soil of the nation at every moment in 0:25:35.356 --> 0:25:38.836 the past, from the colonial period to the national period 0:25:38.876 --> 0:25:42.276 to the Belling period, and that in each of these moments, 0:25:42.396 --> 0:25:46.236 when we look at the scale and scope of a slavery, 0:25:46.236 --> 0:25:49.596 for example, as as a form of anti black racism, 0:25:49.676 --> 0:25:53.556 that that it was, in many ways the economic basis 0:25:53.556 --> 0:25:58.156 of America's wealth. And so even something like that as 0:25:58.196 --> 0:26:01.276