1 00:00:14,036 --> 00:00:22,116 Speaker 1: Push it. Joan is going in eighth grade. I mean, 2 00:00:22,196 --> 00:00:24,516 Speaker 1: do you even remember eighth grade in terms of what 3 00:00:24,516 --> 00:00:30,556 Speaker 1: what you are? Oh? Man? Uh? First day of eighth grade. Uh, 4 00:00:30,596 --> 00:00:32,196 Speaker 1: you know, we felt like we were the big shots 5 00:00:32,196 --> 00:00:34,516 Speaker 1: of the school, this public high school in Hyde Park. 6 00:00:35,076 --> 00:00:37,676 Speaker 1: And we have a new teacher that walks into the 7 00:00:37,716 --> 00:00:40,796 Speaker 1: classroom on the very first day. His name is mister Leon. 8 00:00:40,876 --> 00:00:44,236 Speaker 1: I'll never forget him. And he walks into He walks 9 00:00:44,236 --> 00:00:48,556 Speaker 1: into the classroom by slamming the door as hard as 10 00:00:48,596 --> 00:00:51,836 Speaker 1: he can behind him and and pulling off this like 11 00:00:51,956 --> 00:00:55,836 Speaker 1: blackboard jungle bullshit where he starts screaming at us. Wait 12 00:00:57,396 --> 00:01:00,196 Speaker 1: in that movie. Now he's he's a white guy, and 13 00:01:01,076 --> 00:01:04,236 Speaker 1: you know, and the class is, you know, very multiracial, 14 00:01:04,556 --> 00:01:07,716 Speaker 1: and the first thing out of his mouth is, hey, kiddos, 15 00:01:08,196 --> 00:01:14,876 Speaker 1: I'm not a racist. I hate everybody. That's nuts. That's 16 00:01:14,876 --> 00:01:18,636 Speaker 1: a greeting to us. That was our multi racial education. 17 00:01:21,476 --> 00:01:25,116 Speaker 1: I'm Khalil Jibron Muhammad and I'm Ben Austin. We're two 18 00:01:25,116 --> 00:01:28,836 Speaker 1: best friends, one black, one white. I'm a historian and 19 00:01:28,916 --> 00:01:31,276 Speaker 1: I'm a journalist. And this is some of my best 20 00:01:31,316 --> 00:01:34,476 Speaker 1: friends are as in I'm not a racist. Some of 21 00:01:34,516 --> 00:01:37,676 Speaker 1: my best friends are dot dot dot dot dot. In 22 00:01:37,796 --> 00:01:41,596 Speaker 1: this show, we wrestle with the challenges and the absurdities 23 00:01:41,956 --> 00:01:46,556 Speaker 1: of a deeply divided and unequal country. And on today's episode, 24 00:01:47,036 --> 00:01:51,556 Speaker 1: we're gonna look closely at how the teaching of American history, 25 00:01:52,396 --> 00:01:56,316 Speaker 1: specifically the history of race and racism, helps explain the 26 00:01:56,436 --> 00:01:59,436 Speaker 1: actual country we live in. You know, as you say 27 00:01:59,436 --> 00:02:03,076 Speaker 1: at the start of every episode, I'm the historian, so 28 00:02:03,636 --> 00:02:06,676 Speaker 1: you're the perfect partner for this, that's right. That Yeah, well, 29 00:02:07,156 --> 00:02:11,076 Speaker 1: occasionally my expertise will matter in this conversation. How about that? 30 00:02:12,236 --> 00:02:14,836 Speaker 1: All right? All right, one oh one, that's our class. 31 00:02:14,876 --> 00:02:26,796 Speaker 1: The bell is ringing. Here we are at the start 32 00:02:26,836 --> 00:02:30,316 Speaker 1: of another school year, and along with our kids going 33 00:02:30,356 --> 00:02:34,316 Speaker 1: back to classes and all our anxiety and uncertainty about 34 00:02:34,356 --> 00:02:38,156 Speaker 1: the coronavirus, there's also this assault on what can be 35 00:02:38,236 --> 00:02:42,036 Speaker 1: taught in classrooms not a schools, and a flashpoint issue 36 00:02:42,196 --> 00:02:45,276 Speaker 1: how to teach and discuss race in America's classrooms. Tonight 37 00:02:45,316 --> 00:02:48,076 Speaker 1: we look at our children's history lessons in the curricula 38 00:02:48,156 --> 00:02:51,196 Speaker 1: at the center of controversy. Yeah, I mean, it's a 39 00:02:51,356 --> 00:02:55,316 Speaker 1: it's an incredible moment because after everything that's happened over 40 00:02:55,316 --> 00:02:59,476 Speaker 1: the past eighteen months. You know, there's this great opportunity 41 00:02:59,556 --> 00:03:04,276 Speaker 1: to finally, you know, reckon with our past and socialize 42 00:03:04,276 --> 00:03:08,036 Speaker 1: a whole generation of kids about like what our country 43 00:03:08,156 --> 00:03:12,116 Speaker 1: is and what it can be. And yet in so 44 00:03:12,156 --> 00:03:15,916 Speaker 1: many states, at least twelve states have actually banned the 45 00:03:16,036 --> 00:03:20,236 Speaker 1: teaching of race and racism, and at least another seventeen 46 00:03:20,356 --> 00:03:24,756 Speaker 1: are trying to pass legislation. It's crazy. So these legislative 47 00:03:24,796 --> 00:03:29,916 Speaker 1: acts have centered as their primary target a more expansive 48 00:03:30,076 --> 00:03:34,236 Speaker 1: understanding of how racism has evolved in America and the 49 00:03:34,396 --> 00:03:38,356 Speaker 1: justification for this in these laws. I've looked at several 50 00:03:38,396 --> 00:03:41,956 Speaker 1: of them. In the case of Iowa in particular, says 51 00:03:41,996 --> 00:03:46,876 Speaker 1: these are quote unquote divisive concepts, and because they're divisive 52 00:03:46,916 --> 00:03:50,756 Speaker 1: concepts and because they traffic in what they say is 53 00:03:50,916 --> 00:03:55,196 Speaker 1: race stereotyping, then at the end of the day, they're 54 00:03:55,236 --> 00:03:59,076 Speaker 1: basically saying, if people feel uncomfortable with you talking about 55 00:03:59,116 --> 00:04:03,156 Speaker 1: any kind of racism or it implies that white people 56 00:04:03,516 --> 00:04:06,556 Speaker 1: have done things to black people, that feels like a stereotype. 57 00:04:06,916 --> 00:04:09,756 Speaker 1: It's out of bounds. And it has created a situation 58 00:04:09,756 --> 00:04:15,196 Speaker 1: where teachers have been targeted by administration, by school boards 59 00:04:15,276 --> 00:04:17,476 Speaker 1: in such a way that it's creating a chilling effect 60 00:04:17,476 --> 00:04:19,956 Speaker 1: in the classroom. Yeah, so you said twelve states have 61 00:04:19,996 --> 00:04:24,556 Speaker 1: passed laws restricting the teaching of racism. Twenty nine states 62 00:04:24,556 --> 00:04:27,676 Speaker 1: in total are at least considering similar bands. That's crazy. 63 00:04:28,716 --> 00:04:31,796 Speaker 1: You mentioned the Iowa one, but I saw that in Florida, 64 00:04:31,836 --> 00:04:34,876 Speaker 1: the States school Board voted unanimously to ban the teaching 65 00:04:34,916 --> 00:04:39,876 Speaker 1: of the sixteen nineteen Project and critical race theory. In Alabama, 66 00:04:40,156 --> 00:04:44,076 Speaker 1: the school superintendent proposed a resolution where you can't teach 67 00:04:44,116 --> 00:04:48,396 Speaker 1: concepts that quote oppress others. And one part of that 68 00:04:48,476 --> 00:04:52,316 Speaker 1: resolution they say the United States is not inherently racist, 69 00:04:52,596 --> 00:04:58,156 Speaker 1: and also the state of Alabama is not inherently racist. Right. Yeah, Oklahoma, 70 00:04:58,196 --> 00:05:02,276 Speaker 1: you can't teach the myth of meritocracy. You know, Texas, 71 00:05:02,636 --> 00:05:06,276 Speaker 1: you can't teach political activism. There's an Arizona law that 72 00:05:06,316 --> 00:05:09,476 Speaker 1: you quote. You can't teach any form of blame or 73 00:05:09,636 --> 00:05:13,676 Speaker 1: judgment on the basis of race, ethnicity, or sex. Conservatives 74 00:05:13,676 --> 00:05:16,516 Speaker 1: are arguing now that if you teach about racism, then 75 00:05:16,556 --> 00:05:19,516 Speaker 1: in fact, you are the racist. I know, it's crazy. 76 00:05:21,836 --> 00:05:24,716 Speaker 1: So let's talk about why this was so controversial, the 77 00:05:24,796 --> 00:05:27,596 Speaker 1: sixteen nineteen project, and why there was such a backlash 78 00:05:27,636 --> 00:05:37,316 Speaker 1: against it and why it made people so uncomfortable. Let's 79 00:05:37,356 --> 00:05:40,676 Speaker 1: talk first about the sixteen nineteen Project. Yeah, that's exactly 80 00:05:40,676 --> 00:05:43,156 Speaker 1: where we need to start, because it's it's because of 81 00:05:43,156 --> 00:05:45,916 Speaker 1: its publication two years ago that this current round of 82 00:05:45,916 --> 00:05:49,556 Speaker 1: attacks you know, first got got started. It was fuel 83 00:05:49,596 --> 00:05:51,996 Speaker 1: for that fire. Yeah, yeah, this is really where the 84 00:05:52,036 --> 00:05:54,636 Speaker 1: story we're telling today begins. So I know a lot 85 00:05:54,636 --> 00:05:57,556 Speaker 1: of listeners will have read the sixteen nineteen Project, but 86 00:05:57,596 --> 00:05:59,756 Speaker 1: for those who haven't, I mean, this was an incredible 87 00:06:01,076 --> 00:06:04,836 Speaker 1: project born out of the imagination of Nicole Hannah Jones. 88 00:06:05,116 --> 00:06:07,596 Speaker 1: So I've been thinking about the year sixteen nineteen since 89 00:06:07,636 --> 00:06:09,956 Speaker 1: I was in high school and across that date in 90 00:06:09,956 --> 00:06:12,836 Speaker 1: a book called Before the Mayflower, and I just was 91 00:06:12,876 --> 00:06:15,876 Speaker 1: struck by how people of African descent had been here 92 00:06:15,956 --> 00:06:18,076 Speaker 1: that long and I never knew that data, never heard 93 00:06:18,076 --> 00:06:21,276 Speaker 1: about it. So as the anniversary was approaching the four 94 00:06:21,396 --> 00:06:23,676 Speaker 1: hundredth year, I thought that this was a time to 95 00:06:23,756 --> 00:06:27,916 Speaker 1: actually assess what is that legacy been and to bring 96 00:06:27,956 --> 00:06:31,476 Speaker 1: this year sixteen nineteen to most American households where it 97 00:06:31,556 --> 00:06:34,076 Speaker 1: was probably going to pass without them knowing. She's an 98 00:06:34,116 --> 00:06:39,916 Speaker 1: investigative journalist and senior writer for the New York Times magazine. 99 00:06:39,476 --> 00:06:44,876 Speaker 1: She wanted to commemorate the four hundredth anniversary of the 100 00:06:45,636 --> 00:06:50,276 Speaker 1: sort of official arrival of twenty or thirty enslaved Africans 101 00:06:50,756 --> 00:06:55,876 Speaker 1: to Jamestown, Virginia in sixteen nineteen. Right, So this this 102 00:06:55,916 --> 00:06:59,916 Speaker 1: project was published in August of twenty nineteen, and she 103 00:07:00,316 --> 00:07:05,076 Speaker 1: assembled this incredible group of journalists and historians. Incredible group 104 00:07:05,156 --> 00:07:08,116 Speaker 1: of historians because you were one of those historians. I mean, really, 105 00:07:08,156 --> 00:07:13,156 Speaker 1: they were incredible. Right. I did write an essay on sugar, 106 00:07:13,676 --> 00:07:16,956 Speaker 1: the long history of sugar as the basis for European 107 00:07:17,476 --> 00:07:21,076 Speaker 1: conquest and settler colonialism. That is, you know, Europeans coming 108 00:07:21,116 --> 00:07:24,676 Speaker 1: here and staying, particularly in North America, so you know, 109 00:07:24,756 --> 00:07:29,956 Speaker 1: everything in this effort to center the presence of black 110 00:07:29,996 --> 00:07:34,356 Speaker 1: people as an indispensable part of the American story that 111 00:07:34,436 --> 00:07:39,476 Speaker 1: basically you can't understand the country today without understanding all 112 00:07:39,516 --> 00:07:42,036 Speaker 1: these connections that go back to the very beginning. So 113 00:07:42,076 --> 00:07:44,836 Speaker 1: this was published first in the New York Times magazine 114 00:07:44,836 --> 00:07:47,436 Speaker 1: that filled up an entire issue. Yes, that's right. So 115 00:07:47,476 --> 00:07:52,636 Speaker 1: the magazine for this issue dedicated the entire magazine, which 116 00:07:52,676 --> 00:07:56,956 Speaker 1: is unusual. So there were several essays on history there 117 00:07:56,956 --> 00:08:03,236 Speaker 1: were creative writing, there was graphics, and the magazine itself 118 00:08:03,716 --> 00:08:09,556 Speaker 1: became a kind of cultural touchstone for a broader conver station, 119 00:08:09,876 --> 00:08:13,916 Speaker 1: you know, tied to Black Lives Matter, tied to racial reckonings, 120 00:08:13,996 --> 00:08:18,956 Speaker 1: and there were lines around the building when the magazine 121 00:08:19,036 --> 00:08:21,516 Speaker 1: was selling the print edition aside from what people got 122 00:08:21,556 --> 00:08:24,276 Speaker 1: in their Sunday newspaper. You know, I know you're downplaying 123 00:08:24,316 --> 00:08:26,116 Speaker 1: your role in it, but I'm really I'm really proud 124 00:08:26,116 --> 00:08:28,876 Speaker 1: of you. I mean, you're you're a major contributor for this, 125 00:08:28,916 --> 00:08:31,916 Speaker 1: and this is now in book form and you're in 126 00:08:31,956 --> 00:08:38,236 Speaker 1: a best seller. Well, James Patterson, I'm not sure I 127 00:08:38,236 --> 00:08:40,436 Speaker 1: can take credit for that, but but but I can't 128 00:08:40,436 --> 00:08:43,716 Speaker 1: say that Nicole's work, the editor's work, did win a 129 00:08:43,756 --> 00:08:48,316 Speaker 1: Pulitzer Prize, and that's a certainly a really big deal. 130 00:08:48,516 --> 00:08:51,996 Speaker 1: And what a visionary she is for this, I mean, 131 00:08:51,996 --> 00:08:57,756 Speaker 1: to really to really sort of demand of us to 132 00:08:57,756 --> 00:09:01,316 Speaker 1: to take a different historical look on the country and 133 00:09:01,436 --> 00:09:05,876 Speaker 1: to think about our origin stories in our beginnings, and then, 134 00:09:05,876 --> 00:09:08,796 Speaker 1: as you said, forcing us to see everything that comes 135 00:09:08,836 --> 00:09:11,836 Speaker 1: after through it through a different lens. Yeah, that's right. So, 136 00:09:11,876 --> 00:09:15,956 Speaker 1: of course, when I saw Nichols call for for people 137 00:09:15,996 --> 00:09:19,756 Speaker 1: like me to contribute. I jumped at it and I'm happy, 138 00:09:19,996 --> 00:09:22,236 Speaker 1: you know, continue to be proud of this work. And 139 00:09:22,636 --> 00:09:26,116 Speaker 1: you know, with the book coming out soon this fall, 140 00:09:26,356 --> 00:09:31,236 Speaker 1: it's it's incredible and we'll see we'll see not only 141 00:09:31,676 --> 00:09:34,516 Speaker 1: people responding positively to it, but we'll also see, you know, 142 00:09:34,596 --> 00:09:37,196 Speaker 1: more backlash against the significance of this work. So in 143 00:09:37,236 --> 00:09:41,116 Speaker 1: September twenty twenty, Donald Trump tweets, of course, and what 144 00:09:41,196 --> 00:09:43,196 Speaker 1: a great thing not to say that anymore, like did 145 00:09:43,196 --> 00:09:46,836 Speaker 1: you see Donald Trump? Sat? But right? Trump responds to 146 00:09:46,876 --> 00:09:50,676 Speaker 1: a tweet about California teaching the sixteen nineteen project and 147 00:09:50,716 --> 00:09:54,156 Speaker 1: its schools, and he says that the Department of Education 148 00:09:54,196 --> 00:09:56,636 Speaker 1: will look into it and it will defund the state 149 00:09:56,716 --> 00:09:59,716 Speaker 1: if he if he finds evidence of that. M Yeah, 150 00:09:59,716 --> 00:10:02,036 Speaker 1: of course he has no he has no authority whatsoever 151 00:10:02,236 --> 00:10:05,596 Speaker 1: exactly right states control education. So what he does is 152 00:10:05,596 --> 00:10:08,196 Speaker 1: he goes on to issue an executive order that bands 153 00:10:08,236 --> 00:10:11,716 Speaker 1: diversity train in federal agencies and also in companies that 154 00:10:11,756 --> 00:10:14,556 Speaker 1: do business with the federal government. So he doesn't mean 155 00:10:14,636 --> 00:10:18,116 Speaker 1: just diversity and inclusion training. He actually says something that 156 00:10:18,196 --> 00:10:22,076 Speaker 1: isn't true. He says, you can't talk about America as 157 00:10:22,116 --> 00:10:26,156 Speaker 1: irredeemably racist and sexist. But nobody who does diversity training 158 00:10:26,196 --> 00:10:29,596 Speaker 1: talks about America as irredeemably racist and sexist. They might 159 00:10:29,676 --> 00:10:33,236 Speaker 1: talk about the problem of racism and sexism, but this 160 00:10:33,356 --> 00:10:37,076 Speaker 1: irredeemable aspect, this notion that there's nothing we can do 161 00:10:37,116 --> 00:10:40,596 Speaker 1: about it, is the boogeyman in the conversation. And that's 162 00:10:40,596 --> 00:10:42,556 Speaker 1: a thing that gets people so riled up. And that's 163 00:10:42,596 --> 00:10:44,956 Speaker 1: why he's had such support for this, had such support, 164 00:10:44,956 --> 00:10:47,596 Speaker 1: And now it's continuing and we finally nail Trump and 165 00:10:47,636 --> 00:10:50,956 Speaker 1: we catch him on saying something that isn't true. This 166 00:10:51,036 --> 00:10:54,356 Speaker 1: is the journalistic moment. Some of my best friends are 167 00:10:54,756 --> 00:10:58,236 Speaker 1: we did it, good work, but no. But it's such 168 00:10:58,276 --> 00:11:02,196 Speaker 1: a subtle thing because if you keep saying that something 169 00:11:02,236 --> 00:11:06,516 Speaker 1: that's not happening, then reasonable people can be upset about. 170 00:11:06,996 --> 00:11:09,636 Speaker 1: And that's why this thing is metastic. So then he 171 00:11:09,716 --> 00:11:11,956 Speaker 1: takes it further. Of course, at the start of the 172 00:11:11,996 --> 00:11:14,876 Speaker 1: school year last year, so in September twenty twenty, the 173 00:11:14,916 --> 00:11:18,596 Speaker 1: Trump administration announces that they're going to form something called 174 00:11:18,636 --> 00:11:23,396 Speaker 1: the seventeen seventy six Commission, a Patriotic Education Commission. It's 175 00:11:23,396 --> 00:11:27,196 Speaker 1: a direct response to the sixteen nineteen project, and Trump 176 00:11:27,276 --> 00:11:30,396 Speaker 1: goes on to say, he says, quote, they're a crusade 177 00:11:30,396 --> 00:11:33,796 Speaker 1: against American history, which is what we're talking about today. 178 00:11:34,036 --> 00:11:37,356 Speaker 1: And he says, instead, what the country must focus on, 179 00:11:37,556 --> 00:11:40,956 Speaker 1: what classrooms must focus on, is quote the legacy of 180 00:11:41,076 --> 00:11:45,796 Speaker 1: seventeen seventy six. So forget about that sixteen nineteen. Let's 181 00:11:45,796 --> 00:11:48,836 Speaker 1: go back to this declaration, back to everything that every 182 00:11:48,836 --> 00:11:52,876 Speaker 1: school child has already learned about the basic story of 183 00:11:52,916 --> 00:11:56,676 Speaker 1: the American Revolution. Yeah, there's a larger, sort of an 184 00:11:56,716 --> 00:11:59,756 Speaker 1: ah historical attack going on that sort of wrapped up 185 00:11:59,756 --> 00:12:03,316 Speaker 1: in this idea of critical race theory, and there's a 186 00:12:03,356 --> 00:12:05,996 Speaker 1: sort of fewer at the start of the school year 187 00:12:06,036 --> 00:12:08,436 Speaker 1: that we're you know, who's teaching this. We talked about 188 00:12:08,436 --> 00:12:11,076 Speaker 1: this at the top of the episode, but that's really 189 00:12:11,236 --> 00:12:13,356 Speaker 1: part of what's going on here, right, Yeah, Yeah, Well, 190 00:12:13,356 --> 00:12:16,036 Speaker 1: I think we owe it to our listeners to actually 191 00:12:16,036 --> 00:12:19,556 Speaker 1: define what critical race theory is. Yeah, let's do it. So, 192 00:12:19,996 --> 00:12:25,276 Speaker 1: first of all, it is, strictly speaking, a legal theory 193 00:12:26,556 --> 00:12:32,476 Speaker 1: and historical approach that began in the nineteen eighties, led 194 00:12:32,516 --> 00:12:35,716 Speaker 1: by at the time a Harvard law professor, an African 195 00:12:35,716 --> 00:12:40,476 Speaker 1: American man named Derek Bell and also by a African 196 00:12:40,516 --> 00:12:45,396 Speaker 1: American legal scholar, Kimberly Crenshaw. And the basic approach to 197 00:12:45,436 --> 00:12:50,916 Speaker 1: critical race theory then and now was to literally understand 198 00:12:51,396 --> 00:12:56,596 Speaker 1: the legal history of racism, which means, ultimately critical race 199 00:12:56,636 --> 00:12:59,836 Speaker 1: theory was very, very much interested in the limits of 200 00:12:59,836 --> 00:13:02,636 Speaker 1: the law to wrestle with the problem of racism, going 201 00:13:02,716 --> 00:13:05,076 Speaker 1: back to the beginning all the way up to the present, 202 00:13:05,476 --> 00:13:08,756 Speaker 1: even including affirmative action and antidiscrimination law. And why is 203 00:13:08,756 --> 00:13:12,076 Speaker 1: this important? This is important because what critical race theory 204 00:13:12,116 --> 00:13:15,876 Speaker 1: as a legal concept did, and it's still relevant, is 205 00:13:16,556 --> 00:13:20,876 Speaker 1: we still have limitations in our law with respect to 206 00:13:21,076 --> 00:13:24,516 Speaker 1: dealing with the consequences of structural racism. The fact that 207 00:13:24,596 --> 00:13:29,796 Speaker 1: any company might actually choose, let's just say, a preferential approach, 208 00:13:30,156 --> 00:13:33,836 Speaker 1: even a reparative or reparations approach to redress its own 209 00:13:33,876 --> 00:13:38,036 Speaker 1: history of discrimination is actually illegal in our law. And 210 00:13:38,116 --> 00:13:40,716 Speaker 1: critical race theorists wanted to point that out because it 211 00:13:40,796 --> 00:13:43,796 Speaker 1: wanted to say, we have very limited tools legally to 212 00:13:43,996 --> 00:13:48,876 Speaker 1: deal with this massive structure of racism and inequality, and 213 00:13:49,196 --> 00:13:51,916 Speaker 1: that's it. That's what critical race theory is. Yeah, yeah, 214 00:13:51,916 --> 00:13:53,716 Speaker 1: I was going to say, this is a pretty obscure 215 00:13:53,876 --> 00:14:01,356 Speaker 1: academic take and discipline looking at structural racism. It's not listen, 216 00:14:01,436 --> 00:14:04,676 Speaker 1: it's not something you're a historian of this, it's it's 217 00:14:04,716 --> 00:14:07,676 Speaker 1: not a term that I was especially familiar with before 218 00:14:08,076 --> 00:14:10,236 Speaker 1: the right started throw it in my face and saying 219 00:14:10,276 --> 00:14:14,036 Speaker 1: it's everywhere, that's right, that's right. So it has become 220 00:14:14,196 --> 00:14:19,876 Speaker 1: a catch all for absolutely any discussion of race or 221 00:14:19,956 --> 00:14:26,396 Speaker 1: racism anywhere, from kindergarten to an old folks nursing home 222 00:14:26,636 --> 00:14:29,756 Speaker 1: where someone might show up have to talk about the 223 00:14:29,876 --> 00:14:34,236 Speaker 1: disproportionate deaths of covid if impacting black and brown residence 224 00:14:34,236 --> 00:14:36,756 Speaker 1: of nursing homes, as my uncle Javan, who was eighty 225 00:14:36,836 --> 00:14:40,996 Speaker 1: died in one in Chicago. Like, that's how ridiculous the 226 00:14:41,236 --> 00:14:45,396 Speaker 1: notion that critical race theory is everywhere and is infecting 227 00:14:45,596 --> 00:14:50,836 Speaker 1: everybody and is a poisonous, toxic ideology unleashed on the 228 00:14:50,876 --> 00:14:55,156 Speaker 1: innocent American public. When we come back, we're going to 229 00:14:55,236 --> 00:14:59,956 Speaker 1: talk about how historian Khalil Jabron Muhammad got swept up 230 00:14:59,996 --> 00:15:09,236 Speaker 1: in these attacks and how we should be teaching history. 231 00:15:15,876 --> 00:15:20,076 Speaker 1: All right, Khalil, So you've been busy teaching outside of 232 00:15:20,076 --> 00:15:23,516 Speaker 1: the classroom as well, and really, you know, I'm thinking 233 00:15:23,516 --> 00:15:26,676 Speaker 1: about after the murder of George Floyd, there was a 234 00:15:26,756 --> 00:15:30,916 Speaker 1: surge of interest in how racism has persisted in the 235 00:15:30,956 --> 00:15:34,036 Speaker 1: country and what we should do about it. You know, 236 00:15:34,116 --> 00:15:38,316 Speaker 1: they're that video that was spread around of the police 237 00:15:38,316 --> 00:15:41,796 Speaker 1: officer in Minneapolis kneeling on the neck of George Floyd 238 00:15:42,156 --> 00:15:46,476 Speaker 1: was sort of an undeniable depiction of injustice and the 239 00:15:46,516 --> 00:15:49,636 Speaker 1: two tier society in America. And so after that there 240 00:15:49,676 --> 00:15:52,316 Speaker 1: were like, you know, books like how to be an 241 00:15:52,356 --> 00:15:56,156 Speaker 1: Anti Racist by our fellow Pushkin podcaster Ibram Kendy and 242 00:15:56,516 --> 00:16:00,356 Speaker 1: White Fragility by Robin D'Angelo. They were flying off the shelves, 243 00:16:00,836 --> 00:16:04,436 Speaker 1: and businesses and corporations were also like, well, we need 244 00:16:04,476 --> 00:16:08,676 Speaker 1: to do something, and some of them made statements, you know, 245 00:16:08,676 --> 00:16:13,916 Speaker 1: they put banners, but they also invited in some scholars 246 00:16:13,956 --> 00:16:20,236 Speaker 1: and others to instruct them about about racism in the country. 247 00:16:19,876 --> 00:16:22,916 Speaker 1: That's where you come in. My friend, you went into 248 00:16:22,916 --> 00:16:25,156 Speaker 1: some of these corporations and I wanted to ask you, like, 249 00:16:25,196 --> 00:16:28,196 Speaker 1: can you tell us what actually did you talk about? 250 00:16:28,556 --> 00:16:34,516 Speaker 1: So the basic ask was help our employees understand what 251 00:16:34,716 --> 00:16:38,036 Speaker 1: is systemic racism? Okay, what is the history of it? 252 00:16:38,356 --> 00:16:42,676 Speaker 1: And that covers everything in the most simple definition from 253 00:16:42,756 --> 00:16:47,476 Speaker 1: the history of colonization, the conquest of indigenous people, to 254 00:16:47,596 --> 00:16:50,276 Speaker 1: the enslavement of people of African descent, to the period 255 00:16:50,316 --> 00:16:53,636 Speaker 1: after slavery of formal segregation in jem Crowe, to a 256 00:16:53,676 --> 00:16:56,596 Speaker 1: history of redlining, to a history of education segregation, to 257 00:16:56,636 --> 00:17:00,516 Speaker 1: a history of financial services and predatory lending, and everything 258 00:17:00,556 --> 00:17:03,996 Speaker 1: we now know both as academics and more increasingly the 259 00:17:04,036 --> 00:17:08,636 Speaker 1: public about what is actually systemic racism. And so that's 260 00:17:08,636 --> 00:17:12,356 Speaker 1: a huge list that you just said, and you certainly 261 00:17:12,396 --> 00:17:14,956 Speaker 1: didn't talk about all of those in each session. I 262 00:17:15,036 --> 00:17:18,836 Speaker 1: pretty much did okay well time as our listeners, as 263 00:17:18,876 --> 00:17:21,036 Speaker 1: our listeners will will will pick up on this show, 264 00:17:21,076 --> 00:17:23,436 Speaker 1: we cover a lot of ground here. Yeah, it's it's 265 00:17:23,436 --> 00:17:26,276 Speaker 1: a pretty it's a it's a heavy lift. But the 266 00:17:26,356 --> 00:17:31,356 Speaker 1: point is to socialize the basic idea that structural racism 267 00:17:31,476 --> 00:17:35,036 Speaker 1: is not a fantasy of some cabal of radical academics, 268 00:17:35,156 --> 00:17:38,316 Speaker 1: but in fact is the history of this nation, and 269 00:17:38,356 --> 00:17:40,836 Speaker 1: the degree to which we want to change the present 270 00:17:40,916 --> 00:17:42,596 Speaker 1: of our nation is the degree to which we have 271 00:17:42,676 --> 00:17:44,396 Speaker 1: to come to terms with the history of the nation. 272 00:17:45,116 --> 00:17:49,116 Speaker 1: And so is what you're teaching. You know, this is 273 00:17:49,116 --> 00:17:51,476 Speaker 1: it like a forty five minute lecture that you're giving 274 00:17:51,796 --> 00:17:54,956 Speaker 1: at a corporation. Is it sort of a thumbnail of 275 00:17:54,996 --> 00:17:57,396 Speaker 1: what you might teach over an entire semester. That's a 276 00:17:57,476 --> 00:18:00,676 Speaker 1: great yep. That's a short answer. Is absolutely. As one 277 00:18:00,676 --> 00:18:02,876 Speaker 1: of my colleagues, a former student of mine, sat at 278 00:18:02,876 --> 00:18:05,076 Speaker 1: Harvard a couple of years ago. She said, Man, Khalil, 279 00:18:05,276 --> 00:18:07,316 Speaker 1: if you could take what you taught me over sixteen 280 00:18:07,316 --> 00:18:10,596 Speaker 1: weeks into a two hour lecture, we could change the world. 281 00:18:10,916 --> 00:18:13,236 Speaker 1: And uh. And that's that's the that's a tall ask 282 00:18:13,396 --> 00:18:16,036 Speaker 1: and it's impossible in a way, but that really is 283 00:18:16,076 --> 00:18:19,556 Speaker 1: the invitation for raising public awareness around these issues. But 284 00:18:19,676 --> 00:18:23,116 Speaker 1: you were recently put on blast for these courses for 285 00:18:23,196 --> 00:18:25,356 Speaker 1: what you what you said in front of some of 286 00:18:25,396 --> 00:18:28,756 Speaker 1: these compresentations, in front of the companies ye for the presentations, 287 00:18:28,836 --> 00:18:31,876 Speaker 1: and you were actually talked about recently by Bill O'Reilly 288 00:18:32,476 --> 00:18:36,476 Speaker 1: critical race theory seminars. Let me give you an example. 289 00:18:37,356 --> 00:18:41,516 Speaker 1: So a recent one featured a guy named Khalil Mohammad. 290 00:18:42,356 --> 00:18:45,356 Speaker 1: He is the great grandson of Nation of Islam founder 291 00:18:45,396 --> 00:18:51,276 Speaker 1: Elijah Mohammad. Pretty bad guy. Elijah Mohammad, pretty bad guy, 292 00:18:52,276 --> 00:18:57,236 Speaker 1: ask Malcolm X. Okay, so his grandson, and you shouldn't 293 00:18:57,276 --> 00:19:01,156 Speaker 1: demonize a grandson because his grandfather was a bad guy. 294 00:19:01,596 --> 00:19:04,796 Speaker 1: Teaches at the Kennedy School at Harvard, my alma mater, 295 00:19:06,476 --> 00:19:10,596 Speaker 1: and he is demanding, is Khalil Mohammad that an American 296 00:19:10,636 --> 00:19:19,436 Speaker 1: Express have reduced costs for black customers. So therefore got 297 00:19:19,436 --> 00:19:22,796 Speaker 1: an American Express court and you will black your interest 298 00:19:22,876 --> 00:19:28,236 Speaker 1: rate below then white last racist. Wow, so you're getting 299 00:19:28,236 --> 00:19:30,676 Speaker 1: attacked by the right wing. What is it you're actually 300 00:19:30,676 --> 00:19:33,316 Speaker 1: doing in these courses that you've done at different businesses? 301 00:19:33,796 --> 00:19:35,116 Speaker 1: What are you what are you teaching there? What are 302 00:19:35,116 --> 00:19:37,476 Speaker 1: you saying? Because clearly you're touching a nerve. Yeah. Sure, 303 00:19:37,516 --> 00:19:40,636 Speaker 1: So this isn't even about one company because the this 304 00:19:41,316 --> 00:19:44,036 Speaker 1: the guy who wrote an article that Bill O'Reilly looked at, 305 00:19:44,076 --> 00:19:48,876 Speaker 1: a guy named Christopher Ruffo, has now sort of found 306 00:19:48,956 --> 00:19:51,636 Speaker 1: social media evidence of a talk I gave out another company. 307 00:19:51,716 --> 00:19:55,436 Speaker 1: So in terms of the actual content, it's the same 308 00:19:55,516 --> 00:19:58,436 Speaker 1: because the history doesn't change. And what I essentially said 309 00:19:58,716 --> 00:20:05,196 Speaker 1: is if you ex company want to be committed to 310 00:20:05,276 --> 00:20:08,996 Speaker 1: racial equity, as you have said in your public statement, 311 00:20:09,796 --> 00:20:14,396 Speaker 1: then you have to decide whether or not your business 312 00:20:14,436 --> 00:20:20,716 Speaker 1: practices are exacerbating or alleviating racial disparities and structural racism 313 00:20:20,836 --> 00:20:24,316 Speaker 1: in American society, and that is the part of the 314 00:20:24,356 --> 00:20:29,636 Speaker 1: conversation that takes the history and then offers a way 315 00:20:29,636 --> 00:20:32,796 Speaker 1: of thinking about what comes next. Let's just talk for 316 00:20:32,796 --> 00:20:35,196 Speaker 1: a second about Elijah Mohammad, like he was wrong. It's 317 00:20:35,196 --> 00:20:38,476 Speaker 1: not your grandfather, it's your great grandfather. But let's you know, 318 00:20:38,956 --> 00:20:41,556 Speaker 1: that's an interesting thing to bring up, you know, as 319 00:20:41,596 --> 00:20:45,756 Speaker 1: a way to identify you. Yeah. Yeah, well listen, first 320 00:20:45,756 --> 00:20:48,076 Speaker 1: of all, it's not a secret, so there's no reveal there. 321 00:20:48,996 --> 00:20:55,476 Speaker 1: My entire career has been shaped by this biographical note. 322 00:20:55,636 --> 00:20:59,396 Speaker 1: I'm very proud of my legacy as the great grandson 323 00:20:59,436 --> 00:21:02,876 Speaker 1: of Elijah Mohammad. The nation of Islam in it today, 324 00:21:03,236 --> 00:21:06,476 Speaker 1: beginning in the forties, fifties, sixties, and certainly helped to 325 00:21:06,636 --> 00:21:10,156 Speaker 1: shape Malcolm X change a lot of black people's lives, 326 00:21:10,156 --> 00:21:13,956 Speaker 1: built a lot of black businesses, was a source of pride, 327 00:21:14,156 --> 00:21:17,276 Speaker 1: was a source of black history. And that's that's the 328 00:21:17,316 --> 00:21:21,156 Speaker 1: absurdity of the way that someone like Bill O'Reilly is 329 00:21:21,196 --> 00:21:24,716 Speaker 1: trying to weaponize who he was, who Malcolm X was, 330 00:21:24,836 --> 00:21:28,076 Speaker 1: and the issues that we face today. Yeah. Yeah, we 331 00:21:28,076 --> 00:21:31,396 Speaker 1: were talking about history and what's being taught. There's also 332 00:21:31,476 --> 00:21:37,036 Speaker 1: this incredible denial of history. There's a denial of truth 333 00:21:37,076 --> 00:21:39,436 Speaker 1: and fact that leads to then those norms are also 334 00:21:39,476 --> 00:21:42,676 Speaker 1: denying them. And there's a sense of you know, there's 335 00:21:42,676 --> 00:21:46,396 Speaker 1: something that seems almost incredibly infantile about it, Like if 336 00:21:46,396 --> 00:21:49,156 Speaker 1: you close your eyes and say it's not there, then 337 00:21:49,156 --> 00:21:53,796 Speaker 1: it's not there. Now it's it's it's way more sinister 338 00:21:53,876 --> 00:21:57,476 Speaker 1: than that, as you said, like it has these implications. Yeah, 339 00:21:57,756 --> 00:22:02,156 Speaker 1: but but you know this is that feeling that it's 340 00:22:02,236 --> 00:22:06,036 Speaker 1: spreading everywhere is what makes people think suddenly, like it's 341 00:22:06,036 --> 00:22:09,076 Speaker 1: in all of our schools, and you know, we talked 342 00:22:09,156 --> 00:22:13,396 Speaker 1: about the states that we're considering laws banning critical race theory, 343 00:22:14,396 --> 00:22:16,956 Speaker 1: and not just in our schools. Now, it's in our 344 00:22:17,276 --> 00:22:21,396 Speaker 1: fortune five hundred companies, which you're purportedly guilty of, you know, 345 00:22:21,476 --> 00:22:24,596 Speaker 1: helping to propagate and permeate. Yeah. So you know, all 346 00:22:24,916 --> 00:22:30,356 Speaker 1: these media hits basically are trying to discredit people like 347 00:22:30,476 --> 00:22:35,676 Speaker 1: me for essentially teaching about the history of race and racism. 348 00:22:35,716 --> 00:22:39,956 Speaker 1: And because I'm now kind of in the crosshairs of 349 00:22:39,996 --> 00:22:43,956 Speaker 1: conservative media, I get these crazy emails and racist phone 350 00:22:43,956 --> 00:22:47,916 Speaker 1: calls from people threatening my life. These people are problems 351 00:22:47,956 --> 00:22:57,236 Speaker 1: with white people, don't you big problems, don't you you're racist? Motherfuckers? 352 00:22:57,276 --> 00:23:04,316 Speaker 1: What you are? Okay, that's what you are? Ilf fly 353 00:23:04,476 --> 00:23:09,276 Speaker 1: halfway across the country. You fly halfway across the country 354 00:23:09,556 --> 00:23:13,636 Speaker 1: and you call me a racist to my face? What 355 00:23:13,716 --> 00:23:16,916 Speaker 1: do you think, Khalil, you get the balls to do them? 356 00:23:17,636 --> 00:23:19,876 Speaker 1: So obviously that guy hasn't listened to our show yet, 357 00:23:19,916 --> 00:23:23,356 Speaker 1: Like now that you're talking to that just goes to 358 00:23:23,396 --> 00:23:27,236 Speaker 1: show you, man, how the bad a shape we're in, right, 359 00:23:27,316 --> 00:23:30,516 Speaker 1: Like the idea that I don't know white people or 360 00:23:30,636 --> 00:23:33,036 Speaker 1: talk to white people, like black people are twelve percent 361 00:23:33,036 --> 00:23:37,196 Speaker 1: of the population. You can't you can't live past five 362 00:23:37,596 --> 00:23:39,956 Speaker 1: as a black person and not have a conversation with 363 00:23:40,036 --> 00:23:43,716 Speaker 1: white person. But anyway, yeah, here I am talking to you. Yeah. 364 00:23:43,756 --> 00:23:47,436 Speaker 1: So kind of the brilliance of these people is also 365 00:23:47,516 --> 00:23:51,356 Speaker 1: to co opt the very language that helps us to 366 00:23:51,956 --> 00:23:55,956 Speaker 1: situate ourselves in history, helps us to be able to 367 00:23:55,996 --> 00:23:59,476 Speaker 1: say we've actually learned something from the past. And that's 368 00:23:59,516 --> 00:24:04,596 Speaker 1: what makes this so difficult. And that's that is the 369 00:24:04,676 --> 00:24:08,356 Speaker 1: situation we face today in part a legacy of how 370 00:24:08,636 --> 00:24:11,356 Speaker 1: how or a job of history we've actually done. I 371 00:24:11,396 --> 00:24:13,996 Speaker 1: would really love to hear you talk more about why 372 00:24:14,036 --> 00:24:17,596 Speaker 1: the sixteen nineteen project and critical race theory sort of 373 00:24:17,596 --> 00:24:20,036 Speaker 1: with your own sense of teaching history is so effective. 374 00:24:21,756 --> 00:24:23,676 Speaker 1: You know, what is the way that you want to 375 00:24:23,716 --> 00:24:25,836 Speaker 1: teach history? What is the way that you want American 376 00:24:25,876 --> 00:24:29,596 Speaker 1: history taught? Yeah? Yeah, Well, well I appreciate that because 377 00:24:29,876 --> 00:24:32,676 Speaker 1: it is the work that I've been doing for a 378 00:24:32,796 --> 00:24:38,796 Speaker 1: quarter century. And from my vantage point, history is always 379 00:24:38,836 --> 00:24:41,636 Speaker 1: debatable as to how much evidence in weight or it 380 00:24:41,636 --> 00:24:44,276 Speaker 1: should say interpretive weight you put on a point. So, 381 00:24:44,556 --> 00:24:47,076 Speaker 1: and I'll say that that the sense of myth and 382 00:24:47,156 --> 00:24:49,556 Speaker 1: reality are always in tension. When we're talking about a 383 00:24:49,556 --> 00:24:52,916 Speaker 1: country's history, it's tied up with our national identity. So 384 00:24:52,956 --> 00:24:56,196 Speaker 1: there's always this tension, this conflict between what we mythologize 385 00:24:56,436 --> 00:25:00,796 Speaker 1: and what was real, what really happened. Yeah, no, absolutely, 386 00:25:01,036 --> 00:25:03,916 Speaker 1: And so to answer the question, I think first we 387 00:25:03,956 --> 00:25:06,276 Speaker 1: have I have to say that in the quarter century, 388 00:25:07,756 --> 00:25:10,396 Speaker 1: I've taught a lot of student who opted into my 389 00:25:10,476 --> 00:25:14,396 Speaker 1: class and expressed to me at the undergraduate level. At 390 00:25:14,396 --> 00:25:17,476 Speaker 1: the graduate level, I remember teaching a group of future 391 00:25:17,556 --> 00:25:20,476 Speaker 1: teachers like, oh my god, I can't believe I never 392 00:25:20,596 --> 00:25:24,796 Speaker 1: learned any of this. And again that and what is this? 393 00:25:26,956 --> 00:25:31,596 Speaker 1: This is that the problem was much more deeply entrenched 394 00:25:31,636 --> 00:25:35,316 Speaker 1: in the soil of the nation at every moment in 395 00:25:35,356 --> 00:25:38,836 Speaker 1: the past, from the colonial period to the national period 396 00:25:38,876 --> 00:25:42,276 Speaker 1: to the Belling period, and that in each of these moments, 397 00:25:42,396 --> 00:25:46,236 Speaker 1: when we look at the scale and scope of a slavery, 398 00:25:46,236 --> 00:25:49,596 Speaker 1: for example, as as a form of anti black racism, 399 00:25:49,676 --> 00:25:53,556 Speaker 1: that that it was, in many ways the economic basis 400 00:25:53,556 --> 00:25:58,156 Speaker 1: of America's wealth. And so even something like that as 401 00:25:58,196 --> 00:26:01,276 Speaker 1: a as a truth, right, it's not. It's not make believe. 402 00:26:01,796 --> 00:26:05,316 Speaker 1: Slavery created wealth in the nation, that gave America a 403 00:26:05,396 --> 00:26:08,396 Speaker 1: head start in the world. Um, and he lasted so long. 404 00:26:08,476 --> 00:26:13,116 Speaker 1: It lasted longer here than our European cousins, so to speak. 405 00:26:13,876 --> 00:26:18,156 Speaker 1: And as such, what most students were learning was like, 406 00:26:18,316 --> 00:26:21,636 Speaker 1: slavery happened, it was really bad, and thank god it's 407 00:26:21,636 --> 00:26:24,156 Speaker 1: over because Abraham Lincoln free the slaves. Like that's the 408 00:26:24,236 --> 00:26:26,116 Speaker 1: very glib take on it. But that is, in a 409 00:26:26,196 --> 00:26:30,356 Speaker 1: sense what students have been learning. So there's no detail 410 00:26:30,436 --> 00:26:33,276 Speaker 1: to it, and there's no sense of the stakes of 411 00:26:33,356 --> 00:26:35,756 Speaker 1: why we had a civil war in the first place 412 00:26:35,756 --> 00:26:38,996 Speaker 1: that was fought actually over slavery, according to the Confederate 413 00:26:39,036 --> 00:26:44,396 Speaker 1: Bills of sedition or should say secession. So because in 414 00:26:44,436 --> 00:26:47,756 Speaker 1: that way. And I'll just give a data point. This organization, 415 00:26:47,796 --> 00:26:51,876 Speaker 1: the Southern Poverty Law Center, looked at the quality of 416 00:26:51,876 --> 00:26:55,356 Speaker 1: teaching about slavery in a twenty eighteen report, and they 417 00:26:55,396 --> 00:27:01,036 Speaker 1: found that when students were asked the question how much 418 00:27:01,116 --> 00:27:03,676 Speaker 1: did they understood that slavery was the central cause of 419 00:27:03,676 --> 00:27:06,996 Speaker 1: the Civil War? Take a guess on what percentage of 420 00:27:07,036 --> 00:27:11,236 Speaker 1: the students said that was true. Thirty one eight percent 421 00:27:12,716 --> 00:27:18,516 Speaker 1: is za nuts eight percent. Again, to analogize, imagine anywhere 422 00:27:18,516 --> 00:27:20,796 Speaker 1: else in the world where there was a third of 423 00:27:20,796 --> 00:27:25,556 Speaker 1: the population denying the impact of this massive system of 424 00:27:25,596 --> 00:27:30,116 Speaker 1: oppression towards people. It just would be unacceptable. It is 425 00:27:30,156 --> 00:27:33,676 Speaker 1: not debatable as to the central role of slavery in 426 00:27:33,716 --> 00:27:36,356 Speaker 1: the Civil War as a matter of fact, but it 427 00:27:36,476 --> 00:27:39,116 Speaker 1: is debatable in the matter of our national memory and 428 00:27:39,196 --> 00:27:41,876 Speaker 1: our political culture. And of course the people who still 429 00:27:42,076 --> 00:27:44,756 Speaker 1: waive Confederate flags and say this is about heritage and 430 00:27:44,796 --> 00:27:50,556 Speaker 1: not hate. Yeah, yeah, And you know that I appreciate this, professor, 431 00:27:50,596 --> 00:27:52,916 Speaker 1: because I feel like I'm getting a Harvard credit right here, 432 00:27:55,556 --> 00:28:01,796 Speaker 1: figured your mama. I'm thinking about on the what critics say, like, 433 00:28:02,036 --> 00:28:04,796 Speaker 1: can that be over emphasized? You know? And this is 434 00:28:04,836 --> 00:28:07,236 Speaker 1: sort of this is the devil's outcot point, like, can 435 00:28:07,236 --> 00:28:09,476 Speaker 1: that be stressed too much where you're then a louding 436 00:28:09,796 --> 00:28:13,276 Speaker 1: all other aspects of American history. Yeah, so on the 437 00:28:13,316 --> 00:28:17,516 Speaker 1: one hand, we have gone too far forever, right, there's 438 00:28:17,556 --> 00:28:19,796 Speaker 1: never been a golden age of getting this history in 439 00:28:19,836 --> 00:28:22,676 Speaker 1: the way that is balanced, and so let's just take 440 00:28:22,716 --> 00:28:25,356 Speaker 1: that as a given. That's the status quo. And so 441 00:28:25,396 --> 00:28:27,756 Speaker 1: when I look at the critiques, it seems to me 442 00:28:27,916 --> 00:28:31,436 Speaker 1: that the critiques are not trying to find a middle 443 00:28:31,476 --> 00:28:34,116 Speaker 1: ground to say, Okay, let's do this both end. Let's 444 00:28:34,556 --> 00:28:37,316 Speaker 1: let's actually get the history right, that is the history 445 00:28:37,516 --> 00:28:39,956 Speaker 1: of race and racism as a central category of the 446 00:28:39,996 --> 00:28:44,476 Speaker 1: American story. Let's just ban talk about race and racism 447 00:28:44,476 --> 00:28:47,716 Speaker 1: because it's a divisive concept. I mean, so we can't 448 00:28:47,756 --> 00:28:51,516 Speaker 1: even really get at some kind of balance. And if 449 00:28:51,516 --> 00:28:53,556 Speaker 1: we were to get at some kind of balance, I 450 00:28:53,596 --> 00:28:56,836 Speaker 1: think that we would all benefit from that. In other words, 451 00:28:57,236 --> 00:29:00,036 Speaker 1: black people also don't like I mean, you've heard these 452 00:29:00,036 --> 00:29:04,556 Speaker 1: stories before. Black people don't like feeling like they're nothing 453 00:29:04,596 --> 00:29:09,996 Speaker 1: but victims, that they've only experienced oppression, And certainly, as 454 00:29:09,996 --> 00:29:13,956 Speaker 1: a teacher of African American history alongside slavery. I'm telling 455 00:29:13,996 --> 00:29:16,636 Speaker 1: the story of Negro spirituals. I'm telling the story of 456 00:29:16,676 --> 00:29:19,956 Speaker 1: the birth of jazz. I'm telling the story of the 457 00:29:20,036 --> 00:29:24,316 Speaker 1: political genius of African Americans in the reconstruction period that 458 00:29:24,396 --> 00:29:26,716 Speaker 1: helped to deliver public education to the South for the 459 00:29:26,716 --> 00:29:30,076 Speaker 1: first time. But the only way that you can actually 460 00:29:30,076 --> 00:29:34,676 Speaker 1: appreciate the agency and the resistance is to know with 461 00:29:34,756 --> 00:29:49,156 Speaker 1: clarity what people overcame. It cannot be abstracted. So look, 462 00:29:49,876 --> 00:29:54,156 Speaker 1: something like the sixteen nineteen project is not only important 463 00:29:54,836 --> 00:30:00,756 Speaker 1: as a cultural milestone in having kind of America's newspaper 464 00:30:00,796 --> 00:30:05,156 Speaker 1: of record lead an effort to say we know that 465 00:30:05,676 --> 00:30:09,756 Speaker 1: we haven't gotten our history right a at all levels 466 00:30:09,756 --> 00:30:12,836 Speaker 1: of society. That if we were to compare the United 467 00:30:12,876 --> 00:30:14,996 Speaker 1: States to other parts of the world that have had 468 00:30:15,036 --> 00:30:17,756 Speaker 1: to reckon with what happened in those countries, whether it 469 00:30:17,796 --> 00:30:20,636 Speaker 1: was a party in South Africa or the Holocaust in Germany, 470 00:30:20,996 --> 00:30:23,036 Speaker 1: Americans would look at these places and think it was 471 00:30:23,116 --> 00:30:27,316 Speaker 1: absurd that they had a distorted version of that past, 472 00:30:27,396 --> 00:30:31,076 Speaker 1: and we would hold them accountable. And yet here we 473 00:30:31,196 --> 00:30:35,156 Speaker 1: know that teachers were not allowed to talk about slavery 474 00:30:35,156 --> 00:30:38,796 Speaker 1: and Jim Crowe as evidence of white supremacy for the 475 00:30:38,956 --> 00:30:42,476 Speaker 1: entire period of the twentieth century, because that's what the 476 00:30:42,556 --> 00:30:45,636 Speaker 1: evidence shows. I mean, I talked about being childish, but 477 00:30:45,716 --> 00:30:47,756 Speaker 1: you know, like I'm rubber and your glue kind of 478 00:30:47,796 --> 00:30:50,356 Speaker 1: like back and forth whether nothing you can do, and 479 00:30:50,396 --> 00:30:51,796 Speaker 1: so then I'm going to throw it back on you. 480 00:30:51,796 --> 00:30:55,476 Speaker 1: You're the historian. You were speaking to these groups. You know, 481 00:30:55,916 --> 00:30:58,956 Speaker 1: you're dealing in hard facts. So you have history. What 482 00:30:58,956 --> 00:31:01,396 Speaker 1: do you do well? I think it means that for me, 483 00:31:01,516 --> 00:31:03,476 Speaker 1: and what I advise people is you have to say 484 00:31:03,516 --> 00:31:06,836 Speaker 1: the course. And so just like when black civil rights 485 00:31:06,916 --> 00:31:11,356 Speaker 1: workers were marching in towns and lesions of white families 486 00:31:11,396 --> 00:31:15,116 Speaker 1: came out like they did in Little Rock, Arkansas, outside 487 00:31:15,116 --> 00:31:18,356 Speaker 1: of Central High School, we want to keep our schools white. 488 00:31:18,796 --> 00:31:21,756 Speaker 1: There is a way in which this moment helps us 489 00:31:22,116 --> 00:31:25,716 Speaker 1: to use that history as a way of saying, oh, okay, 490 00:31:25,836 --> 00:31:29,036 Speaker 1: these folks don't really want to change America, because if 491 00:31:29,036 --> 00:31:32,756 Speaker 1: we got our history right, we would have a different America. Yeah. Yeah. 492 00:31:32,796 --> 00:31:37,716 Speaker 1: At the Legacy Museum in Montgomery, Alabama, as you enter, 493 00:31:38,196 --> 00:31:42,996 Speaker 1: there's a quote by Maya Angelou. History, despite its wrenching pain, 494 00:31:43,836 --> 00:31:47,796 Speaker 1: cannot be unlived. But if faced with courage, need not 495 00:31:47,876 --> 00:31:51,476 Speaker 1: be lived again. The brainchild of the lawyer and activist 496 00:31:51,556 --> 00:31:57,116 Speaker 1: Brian Stevenson, the Legacy Museum is about as wrenchingly painful 497 00:31:57,276 --> 00:32:00,196 Speaker 1: a bit of American history as one could ever imagine. 498 00:32:00,676 --> 00:32:03,716 Speaker 1: It covers the painful history of lynchings in the country, 499 00:32:04,396 --> 00:32:08,916 Speaker 1: and so saying lynchings did not happen or not wrestling 500 00:32:08,916 --> 00:32:13,076 Speaker 1: with that terrible history doesn't make it not so. And 501 00:32:13,436 --> 00:32:16,156 Speaker 1: the idea that that we have to look back on 502 00:32:16,276 --> 00:32:22,516 Speaker 1: even these most painful parts of our history is part 503 00:32:22,556 --> 00:32:24,916 Speaker 1: of who we are and to ensure that to try 504 00:32:25,036 --> 00:32:28,236 Speaker 1: not to ensure, but to to maybe make possible that 505 00:32:28,276 --> 00:32:32,556 Speaker 1: we don't we don't do terrible things again and uh, 506 00:32:32,636 --> 00:32:39,236 Speaker 1: and that memorial is just a powerful testament to how 507 00:32:39,316 --> 00:32:44,556 Speaker 1: we as a nation have yet again an opportunity to 508 00:32:44,636 --> 00:32:48,876 Speaker 1: learn from our past in ways that will ensure that 509 00:32:48,956 --> 00:32:52,676 Speaker 1: future generations will not repeat those mistakes. Yeah, yeah, I 510 00:32:52,716 --> 00:32:58,356 Speaker 1: think about. You know, what truly makes America exceptional is 511 00:32:58,676 --> 00:33:02,476 Speaker 1: that we are this multi racial and multi ethnic democracy 512 00:33:03,236 --> 00:33:07,756 Speaker 1: and those same things are what make this country so 513 00:33:08,036 --> 00:33:12,556 Speaker 1: fraught and problematic because that is our history also of 514 00:33:12,716 --> 00:33:18,396 Speaker 1: oppression and of conquest, and that you don't get the 515 00:33:18,436 --> 00:33:22,276 Speaker 1: exceptional part of that without thinking about the difficulty. And 516 00:33:22,636 --> 00:33:25,756 Speaker 1: you don't. You don't. You don't reach a true multiracial 517 00:33:25,836 --> 00:33:31,356 Speaker 1: democracy unless you wrestle with that past. That's right, because 518 00:33:31,916 --> 00:33:35,676 Speaker 1: if we do change our history, and we do create 519 00:33:35,876 --> 00:33:39,716 Speaker 1: more awareness about the history of structural racism in this 520 00:33:39,796 --> 00:33:43,556 Speaker 1: country for all Americans, for all adults, the country is 521 00:33:43,596 --> 00:33:46,316 Speaker 1: likely to change. And that's a good thing. That would 522 00:33:46,356 --> 00:33:53,836 Speaker 1: be a really good thing. Well, we're going to keep 523 00:33:53,836 --> 00:33:57,876 Speaker 1: on moving forward together, Khalil. Maybe mister Leon is still around, 524 00:33:57,916 --> 00:34:00,356 Speaker 1: Maybe so, and he's gonna say, I'm not a racist. 525 00:34:00,476 --> 00:34:04,236 Speaker 1: I love everybody. Oh, I love the thought of that. 526 00:34:05,636 --> 00:34:15,596 Speaker 1: I love you, love you too. And some of my 527 00:34:15,636 --> 00:34:18,676 Speaker 1: best friends are is a production of Pushkin Industries. The 528 00:34:18,756 --> 00:34:21,796 Speaker 1: show is written and hosted by me Khalil Dubron Mohammed 529 00:34:21,876 --> 00:34:25,076 Speaker 1: and my best friend Ben Austin. It's produced by Sheer 530 00:34:25,276 --> 00:34:31,476 Speaker 1: Vincent and edited by Karen Shakerji. Our engineer is Martin Gonzalez, 531 00:34:31,956 --> 00:34:36,676 Speaker 1: our associate editor is Keishell Williams, and our showrunner is 532 00:34:36,716 --> 00:34:41,996 Speaker 1: Sasha Matthias. Our executive producers are Lee Taal Molad and 533 00:34:42,236 --> 00:34:46,636 Speaker 1: Nia Lobell At Pushkin. Thanks to Heather Fane, Carl Migliori, 534 00:34:46,916 --> 00:34:51,476 Speaker 1: John Schnars and Jacob Weisberg. Our theme song, Little Lily, 535 00:34:52,156 --> 00:34:56,316 Speaker 1: is by fellow chicagoan Avery R. Young, from his amazing 536 00:34:56,356 --> 00:34:59,636 Speaker 1: album Tubman. You will definitely want to check out more 537 00:34:59,676 --> 00:35:06,876 Speaker 1: of his music at its website, avery R. Young dot com. 538 00:35:07,116 --> 00:35:10,676 Speaker 1: You can find Pushkin on all social platforms at Pushkin pods, 539 00:35:10,876 --> 00:35:13,196 Speaker 1: and you can sign up for our newsletter at Pushkin 540 00:35:13,316 --> 00:35:17,316 Speaker 1: dot fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the 541 00:35:17,436 --> 00:35:21,756 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like to listen. 542 00:35:22,556 --> 00:35:24,956 Speaker 1: If you love this show and we hope you do 543 00:35:25,556 --> 00:35:30,916 Speaker 1: and others from Pushkin Industries, consider becoming a Pushnick. Pushnick 544 00:35:31,156 --> 00:35:35,196 Speaker 1: is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and uninterrupted 545 00:35:35,196 --> 00:35:37,796 Speaker 1: listening for four dollars and ninety nine cents a month. 546 00:35:38,116 --> 00:35:50,476 Speaker 1: Look for Pushnick exclusively on Apple podcast subscriptions. By the way, 547 00:35:50,476 --> 00:35:54,676 Speaker 1: Stephanie told me that this dress is like an AKA 548 00:35:54,876 --> 00:35:58,956 Speaker 1: dress at one of their annual conventions, and so all 549 00:35:59,036 --> 00:36:05,476 Speaker 1: the moopie Akas from Spellman. Whoever sees these little video 550 00:36:05,476 --> 00:36:09,356 Speaker 1: clips gonna be like, hey, wait a minute, I mean 551 00:36:09,396 --> 00:36:11,436 Speaker 1: they all have the same day, all have the same dress. 552 00:36:12,156 --> 00:36:14,876 Speaker 1: So even though it's not AKA colors, no, it is 553 00:36:15,476 --> 00:36:19,236 Speaker 1: come on, man, come on, I raised you better than that.