WEBVTT - A Conversation with Adam Kinzinger 0:00:04.920 --> 0:00:10.120 Adam Kinchinger is the author of a book called Renegade. 0:00:10.800 --> 0:00:15.880 It is his autobiography. Welcome Congressman, kid tigger. 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:18.040 Yeah, thanks, good to be with you, and good to 0:00:18.079 --> 0:00:20.840 be with all these handsome faces I'm seeing around. 0:00:21.360 --> 0:00:25.400 Tell us about the aircraft behind you. The picture on 0:00:25.600 --> 0:00:28.920 your right, you're in the cockpit. There an open air cockpit. 0:00:29.080 --> 0:00:34.240 And then I think that is a your balance aircraft 0:00:34.400 --> 0:00:38.199 that you might have flown during your reserve duty. Tell 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:39.360 us about those planes. 0:00:39.400 --> 0:00:43.520 And yeah, so actually the military plane. Let me see 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:46.680 if I have it here that I flew. It's basically 0:00:46.760 --> 0:00:49.199 a big version of this. This is a Merlin three 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:51.839 hundred and that is actually I own that. Well, I 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:54.600 own this model, of course because I'm holding it, but 0:00:54.640 --> 0:00:58.160 I own the actual real aircraft that this is based on. 0:00:58.240 --> 0:01:00.640 It's a I just bought it about a year ago, 0:01:00.880 --> 0:01:04.080 and it's fast. It's like a three hundred not airplane, 0:01:04.680 --> 0:01:07.320 and it's awesome. You know, It's expensive to fly, so 0:01:07.319 --> 0:01:08.840 I don't get to fly it as much as I did, 0:01:08.880 --> 0:01:12.160 like when I had a small Mooney, but it's awesome 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:13.480 because if I need to get somewhere, I can get 0:01:13.480 --> 0:01:15.880 there quickly and take the entire family. And then over 0:01:15.920 --> 0:01:19.319 here this by the way, this picture is me and 0:01:19.440 --> 0:01:23.039 Jamie Herrera Butler. We're high fiving each other on our 0:01:23.080 --> 0:01:28.480 way to actually vote to impeach Trump. And there was 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:31.360 an AP reporter or one of those reporters that take 0:01:31.400 --> 0:01:34.160 pictures all the time, that took a picture of us, 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:36.920 and we didn't know they were there. So that was 0:01:36.959 --> 0:01:39.319 like an organic HI five. And so that's a great picture. 0:01:39.360 --> 0:01:43.399 And then over here is me and it's Congressman Steve Graves. 0:01:43.560 --> 0:01:45.720 He or not Steve Grave, Sam Graves. He always does 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:49.400 an air show. He basically lives on an airport, and 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:51.920 he's probably the only guy that loves flying more than 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:55.200 me and in Congress, and so I'd go to his 0:01:55.240 --> 0:01:57.200 air show every year, and we went up and flew 0:01:57.280 --> 0:01:59.760 and that's his T six. So that was like a 0:01:59.760 --> 0:02:02.640 train and World War two. If you start flying like 0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:05.320 World War two vintage aircraft, you basically have to get 0:02:05.320 --> 0:02:07.720 a bunch of hours in that and become an expert 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:10.120 in in formation and everything to then go on to 0:02:10.200 --> 0:02:12.320 maybe fly like the P fifty one or anything else. 0:02:12.360 --> 0:02:14.560 So I haven't gotten into that yet. I hope someday 0:02:15.080 --> 0:02:17.640 to do that. It's through the Commemorative Air Force. But 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:19.720 I got to get more time, and I gotta get 0:02:19.720 --> 0:02:22.320 more tailwheel experience, even though I've got like, I don't know, 0:02:22.520 --> 0:02:25.120 six thousand hours flying or something like that. But yeah, 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:28.680 the military version is just that plane, just a little 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:31.560 bit longer and bigger wings, and it's got a bunch 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:34.240 of cool equipment on it that spies on people, but 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:36.919 not Americans, just bad guys. 0:02:37.680 --> 0:02:41.400 And you also flew refueling tankers, which are the planes 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:45.440 that service a fighter jet in air. It lowers the 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:49.400 boom the plane flies up, connects to it, and fills 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:51.840 up the gas tanks while in flight. 0:02:52.520 --> 0:02:54.600 Yeah, it's uh. And by the way, high to some 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:57.520 of the Illinois folks, I'm seeing pop up. Yeah. So 0:02:57.560 --> 0:02:59.360 I flew the KC one thirty five. I did that 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:04.000 for about including training, about two years, and that was 0:03:04.040 --> 0:03:07.839 a fantastic plane. I actually I remember I was over 0:03:07.960 --> 0:03:12.360 Iraq at one point, out of Qatar, and uh, and 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:14.680 I just looked down because you know, those refuelers you're 0:03:14.680 --> 0:03:16.799 flying at like twenty five thousand feet, you're out of 0:03:16.919 --> 0:03:19.920 weapons range of you know, if you're fighting against the 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:22.560 country that's not like Russia or China. And I just 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:24.080 remember looking down and being like, I want to do 0:03:24.120 --> 0:03:27.120 something like more in the dirt. So I flew that 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:29.120 with you know, for a couple of years. It's great, 0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:31.519 great aircraft, great mission. But I wanted a different mission. 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:35.960 So in O seven I actually became dual qualified, which 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:37.720 is very rare in the Air Force. So I got 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:40.440 the dual qualified in the RC twenty six, which is 0:03:40.440 --> 0:03:43.200 what I finished out my career in, and then also 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:45.480 the Casey one thirty five, so I actually flew both 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:48.480 for a year and then I went full time on 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:50.960 the on the RC twenty six. With that, I went 0:03:51.000 --> 0:03:56.320 to Iraq, Afghanistan. Hey, normal Illinois, I went to Iraq, Afghanistan, 0:03:57.400 --> 0:03:59.480 all over the world. I mean in both those planes 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:02.360 it was great, and the RC twenty six as well. 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:05.600 We would do domestic missions, so I said, we don't 0:04:05.600 --> 0:04:08.040 spy on you. We didn't unless you were a bad 0:04:08.080 --> 0:04:11.000 guy running from the police or dealing drugs. We would 0:04:11.320 --> 0:04:13.720 have an agent on board to make it. Since we 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:17.520 were National Guard, it complies with posse comittatis and we 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:20.400 would actually help local law enforcement track down drug dealers. 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:22.200 We worked the border a bunch, which is actually why 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:25.039 I'm pretty aggressive on the border. Because I saw it firsthand. 0:04:25.680 --> 0:04:28.800 It's a mess, and so it's been great and I 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:31.400 miss it. I'm sad that I had to retire, you know, 0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:35.919 I got twenty two years in or whatever. But yeah, 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:38.760 it was it goes by in a flash, as everybody knows, 0:04:38.800 --> 0:04:40.240 twenty years goes by pretty quick. 0:04:41.720 --> 0:04:45.960 You have been outspoken and critical of Donald Trump, and 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:51.080 I think share my view that it'd be a catastrophe 0:04:51.279 --> 0:04:54.680 were he to return to the presidency. We were talking 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:58.280 about the military. You spent twenty two years in, you 0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:02.120 flew the entire time. You retired with the rank of 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:06.640 lieutenant colonel. There is military news tonight. A captain in 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:11.040 the United States Navy who's the commander of a ballistic 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:17.119 missile submarine was relieved of duty. The Navy simply makes 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:21.279 the announcement, says that they didn't meet the standard. Comes 0:05:21.320 --> 0:05:25.560 out that forty eight hours prior, he was arrested, charged 0:05:25.600 --> 0:05:31.080 with a DWI offense and driving without insurance outside the gates. 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:35.520 Fifty three years old. This is one of the Navy's 0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:42.160 most highly trained officers commander of a ballistic missile submarine. 0:05:42.720 --> 0:05:45.839 He makes a character mistake and there is no second 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:49.560 chance at that level. He pays the full price. What 0:05:49.800 --> 0:05:54.040 is it that has gone off the rails in American politics, 0:05:54.080 --> 0:05:59.880 in your estimation where the character defects are celebrated while 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:04.400 punishment is imposed. It seems to me, more often than 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:10.000 not bottom up. And I'm not trying to victimize or 0:06:10.880 --> 0:06:14.159 to allow a Navy captain who did that, who commanded 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:19.000 a ship like that, to claim victimization. But what has 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:24.159 gone wrong and off the rails in the society. You know, 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:28.279 one thing we share is we're both gen xers, and 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:33.440 I just find it constantly and perpetually bewildering. 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:36.280 Yeah, I mean it's a great point, you know, it's 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:39.480 it's I mean, I remember, you know, in pilot training, 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:42.080 well my entire time is a pilot, not just pilot training, 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:45.200 but particularly then it gets hammered into us. Look, you know, 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:48.640 you get a DUI, you're gonna you're done flying. And 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:51.240 if you're lucky, you can stay in the military, if 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:53.480 you're a young officer and they've got a place for you, 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:56.280 but you'll you'll never make it past major you may 0:06:56.839 --> 0:07:00.640 security forces or something like that. And uh, but you know, 0:07:00.720 --> 0:07:03.240 and we accepted it. I mean, you know, I can 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:05.919 tell stories where people kind of got the shaft a 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:08.240 few times that they shouldn't have. But you know, we 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:11.000 accepted that. You know, when you when you take an oath, 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:15.280 particularly to protect America, and you know, not just fly 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:19.080 a weapon, but employee weapons against human beings, that you 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:21.040 have to put yourself at a different standard. I mean, 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:24.520 look at it. Even just airline pilots, right they they're 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:27.160 allowed to drink alcohol, but they have to stop at 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:29.280 a certain point, and if they show up to the 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:33.560 gate with I think it's above point five or something 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:35.800 like that in their system, they're going to lose their 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:39.360 job for United American or whatever else. There's there's a 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:42.360 standard we put on everybody, and I think the founding 0:07:42.400 --> 0:07:47.880 fathers intended a standard on politicians. I think they assumed, 0:07:48.320 --> 0:07:50.600 and they assumed rightly for two hundred and fifty years 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:56.040 that politicians, you know, what would shift out, what would 0:07:56.040 --> 0:07:58.600 sift out the bad ones, the ones without character, is 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:01.240 the election system, right, I mean, if somebody has no 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:04.360 character and it's found out, typically they lose an election. 0:08:04.560 --> 0:08:09.320 Typically they're they're shamed. Whatever. That was the system. So well, 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:11.560 if you're an elected official, you don't really have a boss. 0:08:12.000 --> 0:08:13.960 The boss is the people and the people are the 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:17.200 ones that can execute that punishment. What's happened, Steve, And 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:18.880 I know you know this well. By the way, I've 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:20.560 got to say to you, just because I'm thinking of it, 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:23.360 and I don't forget you're the You're the purveyor of 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:26.760 Country First, the idea of it, and the message I 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:29.880 know with McCain and my organization is called a Country First. 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:31.480 So you own that and I want to thank you 0:08:31.520 --> 0:08:36.000 for bringing that the word and message forward from the inception. 0:08:36.240 --> 0:08:38.440 So I want to give you credit for that supportant 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:41.920 but on the on the on the the character side 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:45.840 with leader. So what Donald Trump has done well, Okay, 0:08:45.920 --> 0:08:50.080 what he's done well is he's convinced people that he 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:54.880 is a big billy badass, right that he is. He's 0:08:54.960 --> 0:08:58.520 standing in this gap for you. When he says crazy 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:01.120 things on Twitter, it's not because he's crazy, it's because 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:06.000 he's outraged for you. And that's what people think. That's 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:10.800 what people have been convinced. They've been convinced that he 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:15.360 is tough. The truth of the matter is he's the whiniest, 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:22.280 littlest self absorbist, self absorbed ist, whatever that word is. 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:30.040 He's the most biggest, like sissy whiner. It's exhausting and 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:35.160 it's annoying. But he has convinced people through his anger 0:09:35.200 --> 0:09:37.280 and his whatever, that he's this tough guy. So they 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:41.000 will take his character flaws and say he's got that 0:09:41.040 --> 0:09:43.800 flawed character. Yes, but what we love about him is 0:09:43.960 --> 0:09:47.760 he's not gonna let the left bully him into shame. 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:50.360 I mean, his what is it? We always says great 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:54.400 superpower as shamelessness, and so that's what's happened. That's what 0:09:54.440 --> 0:09:56.840 I've been saying lately, particularly, and I put this on 0:09:56.880 --> 0:10:00.600 substack I think today, which is look, Joe Biden. One 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:02.320 of the things I think he can do to take 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:05.440 out Donald Trump is instead of saying I'm scared to 0:10:05.480 --> 0:10:08.960 death of him, you know, or I'm worried about democracy, 0:10:09.000 --> 0:10:10.640 which I think we have to say, I'm not saying, 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:13.240 don't say that because that matters to a certain segment 0:10:13.240 --> 0:10:16.280 of people, I think we have to start belittling him 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:22.280 for the narcissistic again, just weak man he really is, 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:25.680 because that is his superpower in the base, and I 0:10:25.720 --> 0:10:27.679 think we have to begin to expose that. So I 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:31.480 think the lack of character thing just came from, you know, 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:36.480 people like him, People like Santos just having no shame 0:10:37.200 --> 0:10:39.440 and saying that they have no shame in essence on 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:41.200 behalf of people. I mean, what do you what do 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:43.600 you think on it? Because that's that's what I've been 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:46.760 like kind of playing around with. Is this idea that 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:49.360 when you play him up to be this threat, that's 0:10:49.400 --> 0:10:51.640 actually working in his favor in a certain segment. 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:55.720 Well, fear is a concagion and it's something that I 0:10:55.760 --> 0:11:00.200 write about. You can go back and really, I think 0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:04.440 look at Pope John Paul the second as a guide 0:11:04.640 --> 0:11:08.959 in a model on his inaugural visit to Poland, which 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:15.000 is a visit that geopolitically sets in motion events that 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:19.559 within a decade contribute mightily to the fall of the 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:23.920 Berlin Wall. And so what does John Paul say to 0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:29.000 confront communism in Polish to his native Poles who have 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:33.160 been subjugated at that point since nineteen thirty nine. What 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:38.280 he says to them is being not afraid in the 0:11:38.400 --> 0:11:47.440 tradition of fearlessness. Franklin Roosevelt talked about this freedom from fear, 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:56.400 freedom from want, the contagion of fear, its capacity to 0:11:56.520 --> 0:12:01.640 spread panic. So when the country he is vice president 0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:05.679 go on the view and deliver a message that says, 0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:11.360 I'm scared as heck. It's worrying because the moment calls 0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:15.880 for defiance against the real threat. And so there are 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:20.240 two things in my view that you just hit Bingo on. 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:25.160 And the first one is how you fight Trump, which 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:32.719 is through mockery and sarcasm and belittlement and everything that 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:37.680 you can think of that diminishes him. But I want 0:12:37.720 --> 0:12:40.200 to put that aside for a minute and we'll come 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:44.280 back to the We'll come back to the politics. But 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:48.840 when you look at the country, and I think you 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:53.320 rightly diagnose right this character change. I mean, he has 0:12:53.440 --> 0:13:00.400 more than any male that exists in the culture. He's 0:13:00.480 --> 0:13:05.640 the antithesist of the iconic mail of the black and 0:13:05.679 --> 0:13:09.720 white movies we grew up with, John Wayne, Charles Bronson, 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:15.040 Clint Eastwood right, silent, tough, Jimmy Stewart right. I mean, 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:22.760 he is an appalling figure, needy, whiny, complaining, soft, evasive, dishonest, right, 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:28.679 every conceivable character flaw. But what does it say about 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:36.760 the country that they're susceptible to it? Two? What does 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:41.320 it say about the Democratic Party that if the election 0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:47.120 were tomorrow, even money is Joe Biden loses the election 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:49.679 in him. 0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:53.520 Yeah, I mean, it's it's a great question. I look, 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:56.680 so we have to be honest about how we got 0:13:56.720 --> 0:13:58.920 to this place, which is and I can I can 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:02.800 say because there's there's moments when I and I think 0:14:02.880 --> 0:14:05.200 every man out there has felt this at some point, 0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:08.679 which is, you know, when we talk about the value 0:14:08.760 --> 0:14:12.520 of feminine traits, the value of women, and we have 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:15.280 in the last number of years pushed aside men and 0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:19.880 said masculinity is toxic. And I'm not saying like masculine 0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:23.200 I mean, I'm not it's a whole messy debate. But 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:27.240 what happens is if you're a white male living in 0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:31.000 the Midwest and you get hit with these constant messages 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:34.360 of toxic masculinity. I mean, what was it a one 0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:37.360 of the shaving companies Gillette put out like some one 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:40.840 minute ad about you know, is this the best we are? 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:43.400 You know, that kind of stuff. Some of that makes 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:46.239 sense because there is there's such thing as toxic masculinity. 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:49.360 Let's be clear. You see this particularly in the MAGA movement, 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:53.160 but there's also healthy masculinity. And I think what's happened 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:57.000 is over time that's been kind of pushed aside. Men 0:14:57.320 --> 0:14:59.960 particularly have been pushed aside in people in men's mind. 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:02.080 It's true or not, I don't know, but they've been 0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:05.840 pushed aside. And then somebody came along and spoke to 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:09.160 that fear and reflected that fear back to them. So 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:14.600 this is the thing about fear. Like politicians harness fear, 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:18.520 and sometimes it's in good ways. You know, fear of communism, 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:22.880 fear of unemployment, fear of you know, uh, racial and 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:27.040 social inequity. Those are those are true fears, and I 0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:29.400 think a politician has to harness that. And politicians in 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:32.640 the past, by and large also knew that there that 0:15:33.280 --> 0:15:37.680 power that they were harnessing came with great As Spider 0:15:37.720 --> 0:15:41.640 Man said, great power comes great responsibility, and so I 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:43.520 guess it was his uncle that said that. But anyway, 0:15:43.920 --> 0:15:46.720 you know, they understood that they had a responsibility to 0:15:46.880 --> 0:15:50.400 use fear but then bring back optimism. When Donald Trump 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:54.800 came along in his toxic MAGA base, and they simply 0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:57.120 reflect the fear that you already have in your heart 0:15:57.200 --> 0:16:00.080 back to you, or the anger you have and say 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:03.480 you should be angry. Like that's how you pull people in. 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:08.600 That's how cults work. That's how dictatorships get built. They 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:11.520 create that fear. If you think about fear, everybody has fear. 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:14.280 There's nobody on here that doesn't have fear. We all 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:16.760 have fear, okay, And what we do is we try 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:19.560 to confront that we also have darkness in our heart, 0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:22.080 every one of us. And every day we have a 0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:24.760 battle in our heart between the light and the dark. 0:16:25.040 --> 0:16:28.360 And when a leader comes along like Trump, okay, president 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:30.800 of High States, for God's sakes for four years, when 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:33.680 he comes along and he speaks back to you the 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:37.160 darkness in your heart, and he says, you know, your 0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:42.240 fear of immigrants, it's real, your fear of minorities, it's real, 0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:45.640 your fear of being excluded, it's real. When somebody with 0:16:45.760 --> 0:16:48.120 power speaks the dark parts of your heart, it gives 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:50.720 you permission to let that overtake you. And as we 0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:54.080 all know, letting the darkness overtake you is much easier 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:57.640 than fighting. It kills you, but it's much easier in 0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:00.800 the moment. So I is that am I getting deep 0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:02.560 in the weeds? Yes? Does it make sense to some 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:04.399 of you? Maybe not? And I'm sorry about that, but 0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:06.959 that's the best way I can describe is there's this 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:11.840 there's been this like harvesting of people's fears going on 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:16.119 and people's darkness going on, and there's been nothing to 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:19.119 then root that fear into positive action. You know, we 0:17:19.200 --> 0:17:22.280 always said this was said early on by Arthur Brooks, 0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:24.200 who I know, you know well and I do too, 0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:27.800 great guy, he would always say, until it was disproven 0:17:27.840 --> 0:17:32.359 by Trump. He's like leaders, leaders do well by fighting, 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:37.119 but fighting up and punching on behalf of people. Donald 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:40.000 Trump came along and he punches down and he punches 0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:42.960 against people. He doesn't fight for Americans. He fights Americans, 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:45.840 and some people like that, unfortunately, and that's grown. And 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:50.240 there the other big problem, Steve, is that nobody in 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:54.480 the Republican Party with rare exception, stands up to him. 0:17:54.720 --> 0:17:58.480 So when he gets invited and everybody says, oh, yeah, 0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:01.560 he's a victim, of course, then everybody that trusts these 0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:03.200 people are going to say he's a victim. And Nikki 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:05.800 Haley is saying he's a victim. He's a victim, right, 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:09.800 And because somebody like me, Liz Cheney or you goes 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:11.720 out on a limb and says the truth, you can 0:18:11.720 --> 0:18:14.560 get ostracized because that's what cults do, and it's a cult. 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:18.800 One of the things I wanted to ask you, and 0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:20.679 I think this is and I want to preface this 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:26.320 by bussing this question. There's no judgmentalism whatsoever on my 0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:32.320 part about it. You voted for Trump in twenty twenty, 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:39.920 right when you looked at Trump in twenty twenty, were 0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:46.359 you driven by a party loyalty, by a gravitational pull? 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:46.920 You just. 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:53.800 Can't do it on the d side. Do you look 0:18:53.840 --> 0:19:00.000 at Biden and just say in that moment, like I 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:05.080 there's no difference between the two. One of the things 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:07.600 that I said in September of that year, I said, 0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:12.560 I predicted what happened happened two months before the election, 0:19:12.760 --> 0:19:18.000 and I said when I predicted it, that we're going 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:25.440 to find out who will cross the rubicon with him. 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:29.560 It's the place from which there's no return. The denial 0:19:29.720 --> 0:19:35.840 of an election result will spark violence. And so we 0:19:36.040 --> 0:19:41.760 all have a moment in time. And you know, I 0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:44.960 think that when you talked about the confrontation of darkness 0:19:45.000 --> 0:19:46.879 and light, the way that I've talked about it in 0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:51.719 my political career is that you're at the highest levels 0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:56.240 of politics. You find yourself in this constant contest between 0:19:56.320 --> 0:20:01.399 kind of cynicism and idealism. Right, the these two forces 0:20:01.440 --> 0:20:05.680 will meet, right, You'll grapple with them. And what you 0:20:05.760 --> 0:20:10.800 may rationalize is idealistic in a in a moment or 0:20:11.000 --> 0:20:16.200 or not not not so transactionally bad? Right you can 0:20:16.280 --> 0:20:19.399 you can look back on with some perspective you know, 0:20:19.560 --> 0:20:23.280 later on and say and say wow, because all of this, 0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:30.160 as you're involved in it is very is very, very cloistering. 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:37.000 But take us inside the room where you're with your 0:20:37.040 --> 0:20:48.240 colleagues after January sixth, and it's clear and you're a 0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:52.760 person who is in good standing in the sense that 0:20:52.920 --> 0:20:59.840 you stayed with the party. You were critical of him transactionally, 0:21:01.560 --> 0:21:06.760 but you say this was a coup attempt. 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:09.000 Mm hm, Well. 0:21:08.840 --> 0:21:13.520 What what what happens in when when when you when 0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:18.240 you say that inside the room to your to your 0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:21.199 to your colleagues, what is the response to that? 0:21:22.280 --> 0:21:24.720 So it's interesting I'll answer that, and then I want 0:21:24.720 --> 0:21:27.080 to get back to the twenty twenty vote because I 0:21:27.080 --> 0:21:31.359 think it's important when I say it. When I say that, look, 0:21:31.480 --> 0:21:34.360 at the time, I'll be honest, I didn't think there 0:21:34.440 --> 0:21:39.800 was any chance that we wouldn't wake up from that 0:21:39.880 --> 0:21:43.280 moment any I mean, like I you know, I started 0:21:43.359 --> 0:21:46.600 country first right after that, my my country first, not yours, 0:21:46.640 --> 0:21:50.119 but same thing, because I was like, okay, we have 0:21:50.200 --> 0:21:53.960 to fight to restore the GOP and and I thought, 0:21:54.040 --> 0:21:56.120 I mean, if I had to put my money on it, 0:21:56.119 --> 0:21:59.879 it would be this will be a winning argument because 0:21:59.880 --> 0:22:04.920 we just had an insurrection. Right there's dead cops. And 0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:07.119 but in hindsight, I look at it and I'm like, 0:22:07.160 --> 0:22:09.720 you know what I saw in those eyes when I 0:22:09.760 --> 0:22:12.360 would say to people, I'd stand up at the conference, 0:22:12.400 --> 0:22:15.480 which is when we're all together, and I'd say, this 0:22:15.560 --> 0:22:17.960 is BS, this was a coup attempt, this was x 0:22:18.080 --> 0:22:19.639 y Z. We've got to move on this. We have 0:22:19.680 --> 0:22:21.600 to impeach him, we have to do the twenty fifth Amendment. 0:22:22.680 --> 0:22:25.240 I wouldn't see disagreement in people's eyes. In fact, you'd 0:22:25.280 --> 0:22:28.479 kind of see agreement. But I saw fear, and it 0:22:28.520 --> 0:22:33.040 was fear and silence. The silence was okay, Adam, I 0:22:33.119 --> 0:22:35.200 may agree with you, but I want to see where 0:22:35.240 --> 0:22:38.520 this is going because we've been down this path before 0:22:38.560 --> 0:22:41.639 where we took on Trump and lost. And my job 0:22:41.720 --> 0:22:44.200 that pays one hundred and seventy four thousand dollars a year, 0:22:44.200 --> 0:22:45.600 and I still have to pay for my place to 0:22:45.640 --> 0:22:48.960 live in DC. For some reason, is worth it to 0:22:49.000 --> 0:22:51.359 these people. You know, you're on the road half your life, 0:22:51.600 --> 0:22:53.439 don't get to see your family, But for some reason, 0:22:53.480 --> 0:22:56.879 that title, that identity is so worth it to people. 0:22:57.480 --> 0:23:00.480 So I saw fear, but I still thought we had 0:23:00.480 --> 0:23:04.520 a chance until three weeks later when Kevin McCarthy went 0:23:04.560 --> 0:23:06.520 to mar A Lago and that man, I'll tell you 0:23:06.560 --> 0:23:09.600 what on a dime, that shifted everybody. They knew it. 0:23:09.600 --> 0:23:11.520 It's like, yep, you're right, he's gonna win. And he 0:23:11.600 --> 0:23:14.280 won because it was predetermined. They predetermined that he was 0:23:14.280 --> 0:23:16.040 gonna win. So he won. So that's why he's in 0:23:16.119 --> 0:23:18.679 charge of the party. So on the twenty On the 0:23:18.680 --> 0:23:20.720 twenty twenty vote, it's the one thing. Well, there's a 0:23:20.760 --> 0:23:22.800 couple of things, particularly in the book I talk about 0:23:22.800 --> 0:23:24.520 that that you know, I wish I could go back 0:23:24.520 --> 0:23:26.280 and take back. Of course my vote in twenty twenty 0:23:26.320 --> 0:23:28.240 is one of them, but I think it's important to 0:23:28.240 --> 0:23:29.840 talk about why So I didn't vote for him in 0:23:29.840 --> 0:23:32.480 twenty sixteen. I'm the only guy in America that didn't 0:23:32.560 --> 0:23:35.280 vote for him in sixteen and did in twenty. But 0:23:35.400 --> 0:23:39.679 that sixteen not voting for him vote, I think is 0:23:39.760 --> 0:23:42.520 why I did in twenty because the pressure that came 0:23:42.560 --> 0:23:46.000 on me for four years from my party for not 0:23:46.119 --> 0:23:49.480 voting for him and being public about it was tough 0:23:49.520 --> 0:23:51.560 to bear. I mean, every time I would be in 0:23:51.600 --> 0:23:55.359 a Republican circle in my constituents, it's like they'd remind 0:23:55.359 --> 0:23:57.560 me you didn't vote for him, You're not faithful, you're 0:23:57.560 --> 0:24:00.840 not loyal. And I convinced myself that since I lived 0:24:00.840 --> 0:24:04.159 in Illinois and Biden was gonna win Illinois anyway, I 0:24:04.160 --> 0:24:06.399