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Speaker 1: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 1: crime all the time. It's Sunday, December twenty first, and listen.

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Speaker 1: Our team is taking a little time off for the holidays,

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Speaker 1: but we wanted to revisit one of our most favorite shows.

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Speaker 1: We really hope you enjoy it.

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Speaker 2: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 2: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 2: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 1: crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here, of course,

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Speaker 1: with my two favorite true crime mates, Courtney Armstrong and

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Speaker 1: Body Move in and listen, everybody. It is Thursday, November thirteenth,

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Speaker 1: and we have a very stacked night of headlines and

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Speaker 1: a really important guest who are so honored to have

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Speaker 1: with us tonight. Have Hailey Robson, who we've all been

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Speaker 1: following very closely here. She's a survivor of Jeffrey Epstein's

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Speaker 1: sex trafficking ring. If you haven't been following, of course,

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Speaker 1: he is the convicted pedophile who is everywhere in the

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Speaker 1: news right now and the outrage over this continues, and

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Speaker 1: we are hopeful that survivors and any victims anywhere who

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Speaker 1: have suffered from some sort of abuse have their watershed moment.

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Speaker 1: And Hailey, please thank you. We're so happy to have

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Speaker 1: you here. Also, just a jump ahead, we'll be discussing

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Speaker 1: the Nexium cult. I don't know if you all have

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Speaker 1: been following that, but the actress Alison Mack, who was

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Speaker 1: embroiled in this is speaking out for the very first time.

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Speaker 1: Will also be unpacking that new developments in Delphi body

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Speaker 1: in the Delphi murders case, Richard Island, the accused and

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Speaker 1: convicted murderer in that case, has filed an appeal and

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Speaker 1: is bringing forward some never before seeing evidence.

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Speaker 3: Will that make a difference?

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Speaker 1: Obviously we have the person closest to it right here

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Speaker 1: with us. And also later in the show, we'll be

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Speaker 1: discussing the last minute clemency of Oklahoma's Tremaine Wood. He

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Speaker 1: was scheduled to be said to death today and at

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Speaker 1: the very last minute things change, so lots to unpack

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Speaker 1: with that as well.

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Speaker 3: We have an actual stacked night.

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Speaker 1: So first and foremost, ladies, I love you when I'm

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Speaker 1: so happy to be with you today, and Haley, thank

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Speaker 1: you for joining us at our proverbial kitchen table. We

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Speaker 1: know you have been really in the spotlight and in

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Speaker 1: the center of this storm, and the work you were

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Speaker 1: doing and the fight you were fighting is so important

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Speaker 1: and we are so grateful that you are doing it.

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Speaker 1: It is not easy, I could imagine, so having you

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Speaker 1: here with us it frankly means the world.

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Speaker 3: So we want to hear it all.

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Speaker 1: And if anybody has any questions eight eight eight three

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Speaker 1: one crime, please jump in join us live, or you

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Speaker 1: could always leave us a talkback. Just download the iHeartRadio

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Speaker 1: app and boom, leave us a message, or hit us

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Speaker 1: up on our DMS and listen.

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Speaker 3: The hope is.

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Speaker 1: That no hush money can quiet this any longer. There

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Speaker 1: is no secret document, there is no email. There is

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Speaker 1: nothing at this point that can stop this from happening.

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Speaker 1: The truth I believe will come out, and I think

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Speaker 1: we're all feeling very hopeful that that's the case. And

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Speaker 1: I turn it to you, Hayley, where should we begin

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Speaker 1: with all of this?

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Speaker 3: First and foremost that was let it go for a

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Speaker 3: hot second.

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Speaker 1: Yea, you know, there's been so much, right I can imagine, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: how do you feel.

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Speaker 4: I feel like the more the time goes by and

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Speaker 4: the more evidence and documentation and more information that gets

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Speaker 4: leaked or comes out, I feel more vindicated. It's just

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Speaker 4: a little bit more closer to the finish line of justice.

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Speaker 4: So I'm I'm pretty hopeful and anxious, but hopeful.

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Speaker 3: I bet, I bet.

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Speaker 1: Did you think this day would be happening so soon?

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Speaker 1: Are you surprised by the level of outrage on all

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Speaker 1: sides of this conversation that's seemingly happening at a fever

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Speaker 1: pitch today more than ever?

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Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, And the problem is it's so hard

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Speaker 4: to process everything because literally everything changes day by day,

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Speaker 4: which it's great, I guess because it means we're making progress,

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Speaker 4: but it's also stagnant. So it's like, if we can

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Speaker 4: just you know, light that fire under their butts and

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Speaker 4: get them going and just release everything that needs to

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Speaker 4: be released, you know, the faster we can get to

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Speaker 4: the discovery part.

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Speaker 5: So well, it feels like.

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Speaker 6: The momentum right, you know, the momentum is definitely going

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Speaker 6: right now, and that's definitely moving in the right direction.

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Speaker 6: And you guys are like powerhouses. You are not stopped

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Speaker 6: that train right, like you're going to keep going. And

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Speaker 6: you know, I would say ninety nine point nine percent

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Speaker 6: of Americas behind you, I mean one hundred percent behind you.

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Speaker 3: I know, we agree at least.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I actually just did an interview with Nicole

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Speaker 4: Wallace for MSNBC. Yeah yeah, and she brought up the

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Speaker 4: stats and it was like eighty one percent of like

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Speaker 4: Americans are behind us and believe us and support us

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Speaker 4: and are on board with the whole transparency. Unfortunately, the

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Speaker 4: stagnant rest of the percentage is in the White House,

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Speaker 4: in the power be.

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Speaker 3: The powers that be.

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Speaker 1: But even you know, Speaker of the House Mike Johnson,

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Speaker 1: who seemingly has been you know, a small piece of

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Speaker 1: maybe some of this hold up, seems to also be

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Speaker 1: changing the tune today. Even he is really recommending that

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Speaker 1: this vote happens next week for full transparency.

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Speaker 3: That does seem to.

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Speaker 1: Be a change in in tone. And even the staunchest

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Speaker 1: supporters of either the administration MAGA supporters, Again, this is

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Speaker 1: not a political show.

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Speaker 3: We are just trying.

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Speaker 1: To get some answers right, and it seems like one

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Speaker 1: thing that can unite all of us at a time

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Speaker 1: that that is needed, probably more than ever is the

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Speaker 1: fight for justice for you, and man, it gives me

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Speaker 1: chills even as I think about it.

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Speaker 4: But that's like the frustrating part to all this is

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Speaker 4: it's such an easy side to choose, Like there's literally

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Speaker 4: nothing but benefits to all of this for everyone except

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Speaker 4: for the people that are implicated, which makes it so

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Speaker 4: confusing to find out who the good guys and who

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Speaker 4: the bad guys are because everyone's wearing a mask, everybody's

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Speaker 4: stories are changing, there's so many The government has literally

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Speaker 4: created chaos and dishonesty throughout this investigation because of.

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Speaker 5: Their lack of so it's just it's exhausting.

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Speaker 3: It is exhausting, and it's all really tiring.

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Speaker 6: It's all politics, and you know, in I think again,

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Speaker 6: most Americans are tired of that.

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Speaker 3: They're tired of the politics.

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Speaker 6: Justice is not supposed to come in the form of politics,

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Speaker 6: like in any capacity. So I think most Americans are

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Speaker 6: absolutely standing by your side. And we want transparency, We

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Speaker 6: want people to pay for what they've done to these children,

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Speaker 6: including yourself, And you're right, this should be an easy

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Speaker 6: side to pick. Crimes against hild should never be tolerated,

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Speaker 6: no matter who's doing.

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Speaker 4: Them well, and that's such a good point that you make,

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Speaker 4: and just to double down on that. You know, when

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Speaker 4: we showed up to the capital in September, we were

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Speaker 4: not showing up as our adult self. That was the fourteen, fifteen,

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Speaker 4: and sixteen year olds that are unhealed within us that

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Speaker 4: we're trying to now advocate for. And so you know,

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Speaker 4: like I said, I don't understand why I have to

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Speaker 4: go to the Capitol or try to explain to the

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Speaker 4: people in power that make the laws how pedophilia should

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Speaker 4: not be tolerated and neither should trafficking or exploitation. It's

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Speaker 4: getting tone deaf.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, it's crazy making that. That was such a powerful moment.

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Speaker 6: By the way, if you guys at the Capitol and

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Speaker 6: we all we talked about it for a long time,

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Speaker 6: how powerful that was. I mean, your voice definitely was heard.

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Speaker 6: It made a huge impact because I had never really

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Speaker 6: paid attention all that much to the Epstein story until

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Speaker 6: that day, until I until I was like, oh my god,

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Speaker 6: these are real people, Like oh my gosh, because it

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Speaker 6: was also abstract prior, but you guys made it so

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Speaker 6: real and you definitely got you hooked me in for sure,

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Speaker 6: for sure.

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Speaker 5: Well, I think that was deliberate.

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Speaker 4: I think the government, you know, because we don't really

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Speaker 4: hear a lot about New Mexico. Unfortunately. I hope that changes.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, you know, because you had the Zoro ranch

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Speaker 4: out there, and you know, there are victims that were

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Speaker 4: trafficked there. And even Theresa Fernandez from the Female Democrat Caucus,

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Speaker 4: that's that's that's you know, she represents New Mexico. Even

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Speaker 4: she mentioned it, and I said, that's a shame. That

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Speaker 4: should be something that is highlighted because New Mexico was

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Speaker 4: just as affected as New York and flo fl and

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Speaker 4: the Island and it's just asinine that we haven't touched

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Speaker 4: that area yet.

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Speaker 5: But yeah, I.

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Speaker 4: Mean, I think that was the point. Is if they

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Speaker 4: keep us separated, we're powerless, you know, but together, you.

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Speaker 5: Know, power in numbers.

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Speaker 4: And when you get a group of women that are

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Speaker 4: fed up and have been abused, denied, justice ran through

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Speaker 4: the mud. I mean, everybody has a breaking point.

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Speaker 7: Everybody has a breaking point. And man, talk about the

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Speaker 7: power numbers and the power that you guys are putting

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Speaker 7: forth and the results that are now beginning to come.

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Speaker 3: Finally, this is true crime Tonight.

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Speaker 7: We're on iHeartRadio and we are so thrilled to be

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Speaker 7: talking to the incredible Haley Robson. Not only is Haley

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Speaker 7: a survivor of convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein, Helly's a powerful

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Speaker 7: advocate in supporting victims of trafficking. And Haley, listen, you've

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Speaker 7: spoken about your experiences, the years of intimidation that followed,

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Speaker 7: and of course your ongoing mission to educate the public

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Speaker 7: and support survivors and to push for transparency all of that,

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Speaker 7: and just once again, we couldn't be more honored to

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Speaker 7: have you here. If you have a question for Haley,

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Speaker 7: we're at eighty eight three one crime. Are you comfortable

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Speaker 7: taking us back to sort of the beginning of how

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Speaker 7: your story unfolded?

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely. I went to Royal Palm Beach High School. I'm

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Speaker 4: from Palm Beach, Florida. You know, I was sixteen years

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Speaker 4: old and I was recruited by Tony Figueroa, who was

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Speaker 4: a twenty year old adult male and who, come to

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Speaker 4: find out, he brought several girls and was dating Virginia Goufrey,

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Speaker 4: you know. And I was recruited and I picked up

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Speaker 4: him in La Mancha, which is like a neighborhood. I

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Speaker 4: picked up another sixteen year old classmate, and when we

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Speaker 4: drove to Jeffrey's house, I was basically groomed in the

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Speaker 4: car or what to you know, what to allegedly expect,

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Speaker 4: what I was supposed to say, what I was supposed

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Speaker 4: to do, and then of course, you know, when I

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Speaker 4: get there, that's not like what happened. Clearly it was

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Speaker 4: obviously a lot more than what was originally explained to me.

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Speaker 4: And you know, that was probably one of the most horrific,

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Speaker 4: probably one of the most horrific hours of my life,

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Speaker 4: being in that room with Jeffrey and just being fearful

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Speaker 4: because I had nowhere to go. You know, it was

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Speaker 4: a room inside of a room, and the door was locked.

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Speaker 4: All the adults were downstairs, and I was just like mortified, terrified, shocked.

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Speaker 5: Like I it was just like an out of body experience.

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Speaker 5: It was so.

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Speaker 4: Difficult to articulate, you know, even as an adult, it's

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Speaker 4: hard to even articulate. But I ended up I ended

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Speaker 4: up being abused by him for two years.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 4: And I was in his orbit for two years, and

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Speaker 4: I escaped because I moved to Orlando.

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Speaker 5: I moved to Orlando, Florida, and thank.

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Speaker 1: God, you did. And by the way, just to kind

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Speaker 1: of re emphasize that sixteen years old, I mean we're

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Speaker 1: in high school, baby, I mean yeah, I mean Virginia

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Speaker 1: Goufrey's post, you know, post death memoir, you know, called

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Speaker 1: Nobody's Girl. It's funny, even as I'm hearing you speak

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Speaker 1: right now, this could be anybody's girl. Certainly could have been.

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Speaker 1: It could have been anyone. You know, you're in high school.

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Speaker 1: You know it's, oh, here's a couple of bucks, You're

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Speaker 1: going to do a massage.

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Speaker 3: Or whatever the story is.

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Speaker 1: It is so easy to get tilted in a certain

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Speaker 1: direction and then suddenly you're in way over your head.

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Speaker 1: And what a scary place that must be.

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Speaker 3: Baby.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it was probably the most difficult time in

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Speaker 4: my life because before I met Jeffrey, I had been

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Speaker 4: raped at fifteen years old. It was my first sexual

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Speaker 4: experience with a man like ever, and he was twenty

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Speaker 4: one or twenty two, and.

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Speaker 5: That was horrific for me because it was just brutal.

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Speaker 4: So when I met Jeffrey, I was kind of already

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Speaker 4: not doing so well and there were things you know,

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Speaker 4: that him and I was like, my yeah, And I

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Speaker 4: had conversations with him about my rape and about my

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Speaker 4: health and my family, and he would always ask how

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Speaker 4: my parents were. And he was always super charismatic and

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Speaker 4: personable and friendly. And that's what makes the abuse so difficult,

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Speaker 4: was the grooming and the way he made you feel

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Speaker 4: about yourself and just he really played that super hero

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Speaker 4: that he just wanted to be everybody superhero.

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Speaker 1: And you bring up an interesting point too, just to

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Speaker 1: touch on that for one second and jump in if

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Speaker 1: you disagree. It feels like he specifically maybe this is

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Speaker 1: the case for so many abusers. It's like you're you're

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Speaker 1: the perfect victim, even if in fact you've already had

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Speaker 1: a traumatic experience and you're struggling and you're vulnerable, and

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Speaker 1: your your guard is already you know, conflicted and you're confused.

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Speaker 1: You just get it's like the perfect storm, right. And

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Speaker 1: if somebody who's older and sophisticated and influential, I mean,

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Speaker 1: this was a grown ass man Epstein coming in and

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Speaker 1: you know, frankly, you know, we think we're so smart

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Speaker 1: and strong when we're sixteen years old, but you look back,

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Speaker 1: you were a baby, and this man spotted that on you,

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Speaker 1: let's be honest, and was like, oh, that's the perfect

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Speaker 1: person who won't cry as loud, and I think that's

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Speaker 1: the cycle that is sort of the blueprint.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely targeted.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely, he had a knack like he was really

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Speaker 4: really really calculated and incredibly smart to kate the abuse

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Speaker 4: to all of us to.

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Speaker 5: Suit our needs.

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Speaker 4: For example, like you know, some of the girls came

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Speaker 4: from broken homes where their parents you know, didn't make

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Speaker 4: the kind of money and you know, or they were

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Speaker 4: strung out on drugs or you know, things like that,

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Speaker 4: and he knew, he knew how to navigate that, he

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Speaker 4: knew how to make us need him and.

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Speaker 7: All, as you say, the grooming and it sounds like

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Speaker 7: just tailored to each one just to be as insidious

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Speaker 7: as possible to everyone involved. Well, listen, please stick around

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Speaker 7: where you're thrilled because Haley Robinson is staying with us

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Speaker 7: and you have a lot more to talk about.

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Speaker 3: We're going to talk about.

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Speaker 7: A lot of things that are upcoming and what has

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Speaker 7: been and anything else Haley wants to and if you

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Speaker 7: want to join eighty eight three to one Crime True

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Speaker 7: Crime Tonight, we're talking true crime all the time.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

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Speaker 1: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker and I'm

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Speaker 1: here with Courtney Armstrong, Body Moven Taha, Sam and Adam

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Speaker 1: are with us as well. It's an important night at

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Speaker 1: a really important time in this country.

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Speaker 3: And Hailey Robson is here.

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Speaker 1: She is a survivor of Jeffrey Epstein's horrible sex trafficking.

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Speaker 1: Let's call it a ring, right, He's a convicted pedophile.

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Speaker 1: And if you haven't been just paying attention to the news,

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Speaker 1: it is really heating up, and more and more correspondence

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Speaker 1: that involve very high influential people is being released from

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Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein's estate. It is important. It seems as though

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Speaker 1: it's being withheld, and.

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Speaker 3: The question is why.

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Speaker 1: And Hailey Robson is living at real time. She has

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Speaker 1: been becoming an advocate now and dedicated her life to

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Speaker 1: helping others who were in the exact same spot that

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Speaker 1: she found herself in at sixteen years old, which is,

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Speaker 1: you know, unfortunately, so so common, and first and foremost,

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Speaker 1: we want to just take the shame out of anyone

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Speaker 1: who's listening right now, who has a story to share

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Speaker 1: or who have also been a victim of any kind

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Speaker 1: of abuse, you're in a really safe space and it

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Speaker 1: is not your fault. And Haley is a living example

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Speaker 1: of that. She's heading to Capitol Hill and has now

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Speaker 1: dedicated her life to better next steps and listen, it's

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Speaker 1: going to heat up in the next few days and

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Speaker 1: next week might be very real. So we all really

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Speaker 1: need to be paying attention. And Hailey grooming. We talk

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Speaker 1: about that so much on this show because again, it's

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Speaker 1: like so easy to get sucked into scams and schemes

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Speaker 1: and then that escalates to sexual abuse and violence, and

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Speaker 1: then it perpetuates and then the cycle can continues and

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Speaker 1: all the things.

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Speaker 3: Can you tell us.

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Speaker 1: A little bit about where grooming fits in all of

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Speaker 1: this for you and what do we need to know?

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Speaker 4: Well, you know, the thing with human traffickers and abusers,

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Speaker 4: they don't have to use force anymore, you know, because

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Speaker 4: it's really psychological warfare. It's the cohersive control, it's the threats,

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Speaker 4: it's the intimidation factors, it's everything else besides the actual

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Speaker 4: physical violence. But the best way I explain cohersive control

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Speaker 4: and what grooming looks like, think about domestic violence and

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Speaker 4: often the two are very much intact with each other,

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Speaker 4: they intertwine. But think of it this way for those

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Speaker 4: who don't understand. In domestic violence, it is said that

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Speaker 4: the victim goes back seven times. Seven times. In between

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Speaker 4: those seven times, you're going to have explosive arguments, and

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Speaker 4: you're going to either be physically abused, emotionally abused, verbally abused.

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Speaker 5: It's all abuse, you know.

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Speaker 4: And then it's having the person who abused you, which

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Speaker 4: is often your spouse or your boyfriend, significant.

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Speaker 5: Other, whatever, apologize to you.

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Speaker 4: And keep coming back every time they call you a

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Speaker 4: bad name during an argument where they belittle you, or

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Speaker 4: they throw your trauma in your face, or they degrade

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Speaker 4: you because of your trauma. That is all abusive behavior.

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Speaker 4: And imagine doing that for a year on end, and

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Speaker 4: then having the person can come back, I'm sorry, I'm sorry,

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Speaker 4: it won't happen again. And then it's like the reward,

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Speaker 4: Let's go to dinner. They take you to dinner, and

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Speaker 4: now it's turning into trauma bonding with my abuser because

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Speaker 4: now we're laughing about the fact that he just punched

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Speaker 4: me in the face and called me a bad word

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Speaker 4: two days ago. And you don't even realize it's happening,

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Speaker 4: because at that point, your heart is so far in

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Speaker 4: and your brain through narcissistic abuse domestic violence, I find,

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Speaker 4: and I've read statistics all domestic violent abusers are narcissistic.

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Speaker 5: That is an actual statistic. I've read that. So it's

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Speaker 5: it's it's.

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Speaker 4: Not realizing that it's happening, and you're so far in

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Speaker 4: that you don't know how to pull out, and your brain,

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Speaker 4: the neurons in your brain legitimately get challenged. They the

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Speaker 4: neurons get destroyed, and it takes two years after narcissistic

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Speaker 4: abuse usually domestic violence, where your brain starts to rewire neurons.

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Speaker 4: Now apply that to Jeffrey Epstein, that to a human trafficker.

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Speaker 4: Apply that scenario without the force. Remember, because domestic violence

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Speaker 4: is not always physical. Now apply that to someone who

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Speaker 4: is sexually abusing you. And then when you start to

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Speaker 4: pull away because you know something's not right, then comes

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Speaker 4: the threats. I'm not going to help you get your

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Speaker 4: green card to be a citizen, or I'm going to

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Speaker 4: call the art gallery that you're in college for and

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Speaker 4: I'm going to tell them to take away their you know,

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Speaker 4: the financial aid, or take away you know your scholarship,

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Speaker 4: that is all incorporated with Epstein. He didn't need to

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Speaker 4: physically abuse us. That is grooming. That is grooming to

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Speaker 4: its core, and it happens not just with sexual abuse survivors.

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Speaker 4: It also happens in domestic violence. You are being groomed

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Speaker 4: to take the abuse, you are being groomed to normalize.

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Speaker 4: Your brain literally rewires. So of course it takes a

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Speaker 4: while to get out of that environment. It does not

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Speaker 4: happen overnight. And then the other battle to all of

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Speaker 4: this is when we do get victims or survivors out

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Speaker 4: of those situations, we have got to as a community

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Speaker 4: and as a society, we have to welcome them. We

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Speaker 4: have to put down our armor and our judgments and

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Speaker 4: our criticism, and we have to look at them as

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Speaker 4: human beings and we have to help them fit into

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Speaker 4: the community and help them to feel belonged. Whether it's

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Speaker 4: giving them resources, sending them job applications, we have to

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Speaker 4: help them so they don't go back and become a statistic.

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Speaker 5: And when you're groomed for years, that end.

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Speaker 4: Whether it's in a domestic violent relationship or I was

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Speaker 4: with Jeffrey for two years, there is no getting out overnight.

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Speaker 4: It takes years and guts to be able to compute

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Speaker 4: this is dangerous.

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Speaker 5: I gotta get out.

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Speaker 3: And on top of all this, you're a child, yes, yeah.

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Speaker 6: I mean on top of your your bring your all

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Speaker 6: your synapses and whatnot are forming still and this is

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Speaker 6: happening to you as a child, and you have to

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Speaker 6: have somewhere the strength to get out of it. How

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Speaker 6: do you even do it? In your case, like you said,

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Speaker 6: you moved right and.

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Speaker 1: The most influential guy in the world, I mean Jeffrey

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Speaker 1: Epstein by all accounts, this is like not up for dispute,

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Speaker 1: had more pull and play in the world than maybe

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Speaker 1: most humans period the end exclamation point. So imagine trying

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Speaker 1: to It's hard enough to get her own get away

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Speaker 1: from the Yahoo down the street, who's you know, a zero.

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Speaker 1: What about when the person is so hyper connected and

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Speaker 1: let's not forget the honeymoon phase at the beginning, when

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Speaker 1: they're like, I believe in you, I'm going to give

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Speaker 1: you a future. You're so bright, you're so smart.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: A young person is holding on so tight to that

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Speaker 1: identity they can feel so good. So the downfall of

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Speaker 1: that is so scary and wretched, for sure.

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Speaker 5: It is.

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Speaker 4: It's definitely probably when when you know, when you're in

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Speaker 4: it and you're you're on the battlefield and you're going

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Speaker 4: through the psychological warfare, you're not seeing it as you

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Speaker 4: should be because you're not thinking of clarity, you know,

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Speaker 4: and in order to get and in order to get

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Speaker 4: that clarity, you have to separate. Just like with the

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Speaker 4: domestic abuse of partner, You're not going to get the

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Speaker 4: clarity until you get away from that person and you

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Speaker 4: and you let your body and your nervous system, you know,

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Speaker 4: regenerate and just chill. And that can take a very

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Speaker 4: long time, you know. It's it's very it's a very

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Speaker 4: difficult thing to navigate. And if you haven't been through

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Speaker 4: something like that or experience that, A, I'm super envious,

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Speaker 4: and B it's very hard for you to be sympathetic

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Speaker 4: when you can't understand.

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Speaker 1: It's funny. I think more people than we think can understand,

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Speaker 1: and that's not a good thing. But I think there

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Speaker 1: are more people listening right now than maybe have even

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Speaker 1: considered even in their own heads or in their own lives.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, it's like perspective is very powerful. That's why

439
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 1: it's so important that we're talking about it, because until

440
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 1: you're hearing it from somebody else, sometimes you don't even

441
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:32,359
Speaker 1: see it for yourself.

442
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 3: Right, this is your crime?

443
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 6: Tonight on the radio, I'm Body Movin and I'm here

444
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 6: with Fortney Armstrong and Stephanie Leidecker and we are talking

445
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,439
Speaker 6: with the fabulous and incredible Hailey Robson, who is a

446
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 6: survivor of sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein. We want to hear

447
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,960
Speaker 6: from you. Give us a call eighty to eight thirty one, Crime, Hailey.

448
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 6: You know I've been paying attention, I've been following everything.

449
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 3: How does it?

450
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,679
Speaker 6: I wanted to ask you. You are very strong, but

451
00:25:57,800 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 6: I have to tell you. How does I have to

452
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 6: ask you? How does it feel to sit there and

453
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 6: listen to congressmen and senators in the White House and

454
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 6: whatnot call all this a hoax and it's something that

455
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 6: you lived through.

456
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 3: How does that feel?

457
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:12,399
Speaker 8: Like?

458
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's a great question because I feel rage and

459
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 6: I'm not even a victim of this, and it gives

460
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,639
Speaker 6: me such rage. Say, because I'm looking at you, I

461
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 6: see you like, how how does that feel for you?

462
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:26,360
Speaker 1: I Mean.

463
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 4: It's really hard because initially I am very angry that

464
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,919
Speaker 4: anybody can look me in my face and into my

465
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 4: eyes and not see the pain that exists within my body.

466
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 5: It's a very difficult.

467
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 4: Place to be at when the one person you want

468
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 4: the most support and the most understanding from is the

469
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 4: same person that turns their back on you and just

470
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,399
Speaker 4: happens to be the most powerful person in the world.

471
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 5: But he is a mirror of Jeffrey. I make no

472
00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 5: bones about it. He is a mirror of Jeffrey.

473
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 4: And I say that because the abuse that we're enduring

474
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 4: right now from our government, specifically this administration, is no

475
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,120
Speaker 4: different than what Jeffrey did. Gass let us, lied to us,

476
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 4: made us feel that he was here to be our superhero.

477
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 4: You're going to help us, You're going to release these files.

478
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 4: You can, you can't paignt on it. And then to

479
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 4: have and especially because I've been very public about my

480
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 4: political stance, you know, it's it's betrayal, I feel.

481
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:27,879
Speaker 8: But you're a.

482
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 1: Republican, you you you've been very forward about that.

483
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 6: It's disappointing, right like, it's just I mean, it's so

484
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,879
Speaker 6: hugely disappointing because I too put these people on the

485
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 6: pedestal for some reason, and when they disappoint us.

486
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 3: It's so you know, heartbreaking.

487
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 7: But yeah, I got to say, you use disappointment, which

488
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 7: it is. It's disgusting, it's dislist it. I mean, that

489
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:55,959
Speaker 7: was disgusting to actually watch that. But a new day dawns.

490
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,199
Speaker 7: So what what are you doing? You're going back to

491
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:00,400
Speaker 7: the capital next week?

492
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:02,640
Speaker 3: Is that right? What's happening there?

493
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:06,439
Speaker 4: So Tuesday November eighteenth, at nine am, there's going to

494
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,440
Speaker 4: be a press conference with Rocanna, Thomas Matthew, and Marjorie

495
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 4: Taylor Green. So I fly out Monday, and I think

496
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 4: I'm coming back like like Wednesday afternoon, and it's just

497
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 4: going to be a huge push to release more fund

498
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 4: you know, to you know, heat up the kitchen a

499
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 4: little bit, put that fire in there, add some gasoline

500
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,400
Speaker 4: to that. Yeah, and you know they need to put

501
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 4: a little pup in their steps. Enough is enough, you know,

502
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,159
Speaker 4: let's do this. Let's get the ball rolling now that

503
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,360
Speaker 4: the government's back and intact. That was pointless for those

504
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 4: fifty or forty days, however long it was.

505
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 1: I think it was all connected.

506
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 3: Was that part of the show up? It was?

507
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 1: Can you just I've been listen, don't get me started

508
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 1: but it's all connected. Right, we heard it themselves. The

509
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: administration admitted yesterday there are no coincidences in politics, and

510
00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 1: what a bummer.

511
00:28:58,280 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 3: And boy doesn't seem.

512
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: As the Oh that's going to work, because what happens

513
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 1: in the dark, it comes out in the light.

514
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 4: Well, I you know, it's like I keep saying, I

515
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 4: don't know what you think is going to happen, but

516
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 4: like we're not going anywhere, and I'm just going to

517
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 4: go out on a woman and say that the last thing.

518
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 5: You want is forty more women.

519
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 4: To pile up at the Capitol, angry, emotional set up, exhausted,

520
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 4: with no bathrooms to offer us.

521
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 5: Right, that's last thing you want.

522
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 3: And that's the truth.

523
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 1: And by the way, there's a whole country supporting you.

524
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 3: And I do think if you haven't.

525
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: Felt it, it is palpable right now. I don't care

526
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 1: who you voted for. I mean, we hear it all

527
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 1: day and again we have the benefit of being hearing

528
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 1: all sides of the equation. It's like no one's feeling

529
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 1: it anymore. And the cover up days are done. Yeah,

530
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 1: it does feel like the genie cannot go back in

531
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 1: the bottle any longer.

532
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, No, it's too late for all that. There's nowhere

533
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 5: left to go except for up and forward.

534
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 1: And by the way, the sixteen year old version of

535
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 1: all three of us are just bear hugging the sixteen

536
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 1: year old version of you so deeply, so deeply, all

537
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 1: of us, every one of us in Taha. A lot

538
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 1: of them did.

539
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 3: I don't know why, but no, I'm emotional. I know

540
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 3: we all are cried.

541
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 7: But I mean, you're on the press, You're actually you are,

542
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 7: you are doing you are you know, as you said,

543
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 7: pouring some gasoline on this fire that needs to be

544
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 7: lit and lit big and you know it's it really

545
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 7: is incredible.

546
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 3: But you know, the force of the human will can.

547
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 6: See everybody in the you know, the in the those

548
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 6: steps that day at the Capitol and seeing all those

549
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 6: women and by the way, Democrats and Republicans standing together.

550
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, Maga, that was like a moment for me,

551
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 6: Like I was like, oh my gosh, the country is healing,

552
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 6: Like I can feel it.

553
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 3: I don't know.

554
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 6: It was very powerful, Hailey, like, it was very very powerful.

555
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 6: I watched it several times.

556
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 3: It was very powerful. I can't wait to see what

557
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 3: happens here.

558
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 7: Well, listen, we need to thank you so much for

559
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 7: joining us. Haley, your courage, your advocacy is inspiring beyond.

560
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 7: We are grateful for all of the work you're doing.

561
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 7: And anyone who's interested in supporting Haley Robson, who should

562
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 7: be everybody as well as all the other survivors, can

563
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 7: continue to apply pressure to their political representatives and demand transparency.

564
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 7: And you've learning a lot more about Haley's great good

565
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 7: work at the survivors ink dot org.

566
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 3: We love you, Go get them kid, And wow.

567
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, Hailey Raps what a super stud is you know,

568
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 1: kind of really light it up. She is making the

569
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 1: change that will hopefully change things generationally. Talk about legacy,

570
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 1: you know, we're talking about making your mess into a message.

571
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 3: And again she is so.

572
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 1: Strong and mighty, and it's like just again a reminder

573
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 1: that you know, just because someone carries it well doesn't

574
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 1: mean it's not heavy, right, And she.

575
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 6: Has the weight of a lot of us on her shoulders. Yes,

576
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 6: she does carry it well, but yeah, that has got

577
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 6: to be heavy. And I mean, I hope she feels

578
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 6: that when she's standing on those capital steps, she feels

579
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 6: the you know, the three of us plus you know

580
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 6: everybody else, all the other women out there with her.

581
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 6: I hope she really feels us holding her up, I.

582
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 1: Really and holding her hand every step of the way,

583
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 1: because what a lonesome road this must have been, and

584
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 1: it's a road that many really have also traveled on.

585
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 3: So I feel like this particular case, although.

586
00:32:55,800 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 1: Worldwide, and you know, the implications are so huge, huge,

587
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 1: it is sort of the quintessential example of what so

588
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 1: many experience in their own personal lives in different ways.

589
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 1: And I guess that's why the outrage is really eating palpable.

590
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 3: It's palpable, it really is.

591
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 7: And I have to say, Haley, really, you know, walks

592
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 7: the walk in terms of the survivors ink dot org,

593
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 7: which we have so much else talk about, but it's

594
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 7: worth spending just a minute because what an organization this is.

595
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 7: It's a community of survivors who are helping other survivors, right,

596
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 7: and they are offered all kinds of really actionable things,

597
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 7: so from support and empowerment and life coaching to help

598
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 7: get everything back on path a safe path to healing,

599
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 7: to personal growth and just you know, resilience and helping

600
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 7: strength and dignity come back and grow. So I think

601
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 7: that's a really beautiful thing for anyone who does want

602
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 7: to know more.

603
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 3: Again, the survivors and rears.

604
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,840
Speaker 1: And by the way, it's not just like a chick thing, right, No.

605
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 1: So many men and you know women suffer from this

606
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 1: level of abuse. But what I find so inspiring is

607
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 1: so many men on all sides of it just jumping

608
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:22,760
Speaker 1: in and saying oh.

609
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 3: No, solu. Yeah.

610
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 1: It's like and we experience it here at work and

611
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 1: in the studio. Everyone's like, oh no, no, no, no,

612
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 1: that is we have. You know, the muscle that is

613
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 1: now entering the fight is really tremendous. And I think

614
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 1: that does say so much about how important this particular

615
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 1: time is. And listen, it's we have to all drop

616
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,400
Speaker 1: the shame. The shame has to be put aside. You know,

617
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 1: think about it.

618
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:50,439
Speaker 3: You're a young girl.

619
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:51,840
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, I don't want anyone to know. I

620
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,240
Speaker 1: don't my parents to know I'm going to get in trouble.

621
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 1: Or sometimes it's just easier not to discuss something because

622
00:34:57,760 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 1: you want to move on with your life. So I

623
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 1: have an idea, why don't you bury it for two

624
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 1: decades until it surfaces in some other strange, cocked away

625
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 1: little do you know, like so many people around you

626
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 1: have experienced something so similar. But the silence is what's

627
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,800
Speaker 1: keeping it alive. And you know, maybe that's the big

628
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 1: the big breakthrough that's maybe happening collectively throughout the country,

629
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 1: is that, like, the silence is really the biggest piece

630
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 1: of the puzzle that will not last.

631
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 3: We've heard it here.

632
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:31,879
Speaker 1: We've had, you know, incredible callers who have called in

633
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 1: and shared their toward tell men and women, and it's like, yeah,

634
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 1: when you look back as an adult, you look back

635
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 1: to your whatever thing is, You're like, well, that seems

636
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 1: super obvious that the baseball coach of yesteryear, you know,

637
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:47,879
Speaker 1: told me to do this and some and then they

638
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 1: carry it around. And by the way, I think it's

639
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 1: sometimes even tougher for young boys and men because you know,

640
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 1: it's like it's you know, not macho, and it's silent

641
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:03,320
Speaker 1: and and and right, and that is just not true.

642
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 1: So if it's not really clear, if you have experienced

643
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 1: any level of abuse, sexual or otherwise, it is not

644
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 1: your fault. Take out the shame, and you are not alone,

645
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 1: and there's help and anybody can heal from anything. I

646
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,880
Speaker 1: truly believe that I think we are entering the healing

647
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 1: stage in this world.

648
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 3: I really do. I think the best is upon us.

649
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 6: I think I think maybe this is the start of

650
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 6: some healing. And and like you said stuff, you said

651
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,360
Speaker 6: it so well, silence is what's keeping this you know,

652
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 6: active and going right. And the breaking the silence and

653
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 6: the stigma and the shame and everything that accompanies that

654
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:42,320
Speaker 6: is what's going to help us move forward.

655
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 3: So yeah, I think it's going.

656
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:43,839
Speaker 5: To be a great point.

657
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 9: Agree. It's interesting how this country is. We're so divided

658
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,279
Speaker 9: amongst you know, everyone, but this is the one issue.

659
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 3: Everyone's like black, white, young, you know, male female. This

660
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,319
Speaker 3: is like when you're harming children. It's like we all

661
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 3: are united, like, okay, this is a I'm not this.

662
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 5: Yeah.

663
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 9: So if anything, maybe it's helping unite forces in a

664
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:06,800
Speaker 9: way that we didn't expect.

665
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 1: But it's the unexpected, you know, hero's journey, right. And again,

666
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 1: whether you're a child or a grown adult who has

667
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 1: found yourself in a situation that just is eating you

668
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:21,359
Speaker 1: alive inside, we had to let it go. That is,

669
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 1: you know, not helping the cause, you know, And I

670
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 1: think you'd be surprised how many resources there actually are

671
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:32,399
Speaker 1: and how alone you are not so there's actually one

672
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 1: resource I'd like to shout out and yeah, this is

673
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 1: This is actually from the Survivors Inc. Dot org And

674
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 1: for anyone listening who needs someone to speak to. The

675
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 1: National Sexual Assault Hotline is a beautiful thing. It's a

676
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 1: hotline and it connects individuals who have been sexually assaulted

677
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 1: with local sexual assault service providers.

678
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 7: They are local, so there are people around the country

679
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:04,879
Speaker 7: who can connected and you can call eight hundred six

680
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:09,840
Speaker 7: five six four six seven three. Staff members are trained

681
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 7: and they can also help assist with emergency housing as well.

682
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 7: So just to underline what you're saying, Stephanie.

683
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 6: That's such a big deal with the emergency house, that's right,

684
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 6: it is where do you go place you're run?

685
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:23,359
Speaker 4: Right?

686
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 6: If you're using with somebody that's doing this to you,

687
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:26,399
Speaker 6: what do you Where do you go?

688
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 3: That's or don't you stay?

689
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 1: And that's the problem because you're too afraid and you

690
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:32,920
Speaker 1: have nowhere to go because then you will be holding

691
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 1: the purse strings to you have no money. Maybe they're

692
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 1: controlling your By the way, another little tip, you have

693
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 1: to stash some cash. You have to have a little

694
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 1: go get go money. You just do. It's so hard

695
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 1: to do. Even if it's in fifty cent increments, you

696
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 1: have to start putting those pennies in a jar because

697
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:54,719
Speaker 1: you're going to have to make a run for it

698
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 1: and there is some place to go.

699
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,839
Speaker 6: I did this, uh, this this thing at crime Con.

700
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 6: I gave a talk about how animal abuse leads to

701
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:07,840
Speaker 6: more deviant behavior with doctor Chris Shandy. And one of

702
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,440
Speaker 6: the things that I learned when I was studying for

703
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 6: this presentation was a lot of the abuse situations that

704
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 6: we're talking about right now.

705
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 3: Women or men will.

706
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,800
Speaker 6: Stay if they have a dog or a cat because

707
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 6: they can't they can't just leave with their dogs. So

708
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:26,880
Speaker 6: the housing thing, when you said that to me, the

709
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:29,880
Speaker 6: light bulb went off, Right, it's such a big deal.

710
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 6: It is like bigger, It's bigger than you think, because

711
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 6: you can't bring your dog to a shelter, right, they

712
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 6: won't leave their cat. They won't leave their dog, They

713
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 6: won't leave you know what I mean. You can bring

714
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 6: your their lifelessly. Yeah, that's their life and they know

715
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 6: that their abuser is going to hurt their beloved little puppy.

716
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:51,360
Speaker 6: So yeah, that is such a big deal. The housing

717
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 6: courtney like huge.

718
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 7: Wow, So thank you for mentioning that yeah, help, you know,

719
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:59,799
Speaker 7: help is there and people are ready to jump in.

720
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:01,840
Speaker 3: Listen, this is due crime tonight.

721
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 7: We would love to hear your thoughts on everything that

722
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:06,799
Speaker 7: we've been talking about. We're at eight and eight three

723
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:10,880
Speaker 7: one crime and we were just so lucky to have

724
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 7: Haley Robson, survivor of pedophile Jeffrey Epstein and now marching

725
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,720
Speaker 7: on Congress and making the world turn the other way.

726
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 7: So thank you, Haley.

727
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 3: What do you think? Yes, we do, we go and see. Actually,

728
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 3: I'm like we're a little fire way.

729
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 1: And I'm feeling fired up as well, and I feel

730
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 1: pretty intentionally driven to make sure that we're following this

731
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 1: closely and if anybody has other tips, tricks, resources, you know,

732
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:50,399
Speaker 1: call us anonymously anything like that, because I do think

733
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:52,800
Speaker 1: we're checking on some of the boxes that's more common

734
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 1: than we think. Where the heck do I run to

735
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:58,840
Speaker 1: and how do I not let my job or the

736
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 1: people around me find that. It's so embarrassing when you

737
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:04,840
Speaker 1: feel like you're the only one in the world that's

738
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 1: being subjected to this abuse. And by the way, sometimes

739
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 1: you love the person who's doing the abuse, which is

740
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:15,719
Speaker 1: even crazier and unless you've ever experienced that, it's really

741
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 1: hard to imagine, right. I think that's more common than

742
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 1: we think.

743
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 3: Well, as Haley said, average is seven times yes to

744
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 3: leave and come back before many people are able to,

745
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 3: you know, make the final decision to leave. If you're

746
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 3: a kid, you can't leave right.

747
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:38,279
Speaker 1: Kind of you can run away. And by the way,

748
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 1: let's also play the fact that you're with somebody who's

749
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 1: potentially very dangerous.

750
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:43,759
Speaker 3: Who do you run to?

751
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 1: Because you know full well when you run there, the

752
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,879
Speaker 1: person whom you've run too is also in the.

753
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 3: Line of fire.

754
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 1: So if you know you're with a dangerous person, when

755
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 1: you land somewhere else, that person's coming, and you know,

756
00:41:58,480 --> 00:41:59,839
Speaker 1: everyone's like, get a restraining order.

757
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 3: That matters for zero And by the way, I don't.

758
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 1: I'm not suggesting not to get them, but it's a

759
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 1: piece of paper that even can aggravate the situation. So

760
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 1: I think this is more prevalent and common than people

761
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 1: talk about in think. And I think if we all

762
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 1: put our big brains together, which you know, anyone listening,

763
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:20,360
Speaker 1: I think we're the smartest audience in the world. I

764
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 1: think we can solve this. And I think part of

765
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:27,600
Speaker 1: it is just openly talking about it without fear and shame. Shame, Yeah,

766
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 1: shame is the killer of all things.

767
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 3: I think it's the reason for cancer. It could be

768
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 3: it could be changing ourselves, right.

769
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, it starts somewhere inside, and support from others I

770
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:40,320
Speaker 1: think makes all the difference. You just need one friend.

771
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 3: So we're your snowballs.

772
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 1: Yeah we're in snowballs. Yeah, we'll be your friend. We

773
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 1: are your friend. Right, So there's to have you friends.

774
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:49,439
Speaker 3: I'm glad to have you too.

775
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:52,360
Speaker 6: So there's another there's another story that I kind of

776
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,320
Speaker 6: wanted to get to, and that's a Nixium one.

777
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 5: Yeah.

778
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 6: It kind of much we're talking about over right, couldn't.

779
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 3: So there's this cult in their calt.

780
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 6: Well they don't exist anymore, but they're called Nixim And

781
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:10,400
Speaker 6: Alison Mack she she's the former small Town or the

782
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:14,719
Speaker 6: Smallville actress. She went to she went to jail for

783
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:17,719
Speaker 6: being in this cult and sex trafficking. And I know

784
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:21,319
Speaker 6: that's kind of like a complicated sentence, but you know

785
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 6: this this cult had had a cult inside of it.

786
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 6: It was a cult within a cult, okay. And this

787
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 6: cult was called DOS and Alison Mack was like the

788
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:36,280
Speaker 6: you know, the head recruiter for this cult within the cult,

789
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 6: and she went.

790
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 3: To goss I'm sorry, I want to make sure I'm here.

791
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:42,759
Speaker 3: D d O S. She was a big deal because

792
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 3: she was an actress on that show. Deal she was.

793
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 3: I loved that. That wasn't c W back in the

794
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 3: day show, right, she was.

795
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 6: She was like one of the stars on that show.

796
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 6: You know, she was a big deal and she joined

797
00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 6: this cult. You know, she this cult. The present the

798
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 6: reason this cult existed. They were kind of like a

799
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 6: self help kind of thing, and and you would go

800
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:08,759
Speaker 6: to these seminars and you would buy you know, it's

801
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:11,840
Speaker 6: kind of like a multi level marketing too, right, it's

802
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:19,239
Speaker 6: a multi level marketing slash cult slash yeah pretty much.

803
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:19,720
Speaker 3: Yeah.

804
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:22,399
Speaker 6: And so you would go to these you know, these

805
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:26,759
Speaker 6: the self help organization to get professional development and human potential.

806
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:29,800
Speaker 6: And they would offer seminars and they called these seminars

807
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:35,279
Speaker 6: executive success programs. And it drew in a lot of entrepreneurs, actresses,

808
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 6: tons of actresses. I'm a huge Battlestar Galactica fan, and

809
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:40,920
Speaker 6: like the they were like the entire people.

810
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:45,759
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

811
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:50,280
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's crazy. So you know, it drew all these people, filmmakers,

812
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:53,919
Speaker 6: wealthy professionals. It operated mostly out of Albany, New York,

813
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 6: but it had centers across the United States of Canada.

814
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,799
Speaker 6: And on the surface it was just leadership training, empowerment

815
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:03,440
Speaker 6: were shop self improvement curriculum, but underneath it all, it

816
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 6: was a cult built around Keith Rnier. And Keith Ranier

817
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 6: is a con man, but he is a self proclaimed

818
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,320
Speaker 6: in the Guinness Book of World Records for being a genius,

819
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 6: had that the highest IQ, and everybody called him Vanguard.

820
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 6: If that's not a sign of a cult, I don't

821
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 6: this guy.

822
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:24,800
Speaker 1: Like narcissistic tendency already narcissist to start.

823
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 6: It right, they said he was a world class problem solver,

824
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 6: somebody with this superhuman intellect, and none of that was true.

825
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 6: He fabricated his resume, he exaggerated his accomplishments. He used

826
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:39,880
Speaker 6: pseudo's intellectual language to maintain control over all these people

827
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:42,319
Speaker 6: that would come to his seminars and get hooked in

828
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:46,320
Speaker 6: by this self improvement. While Alison Mack was one of them,

829
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:51,360
Speaker 6: and she created this doss program per Keith Rinier, the

830
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:56,240
Speaker 6: leader Vanguard, and she was recruiting women and they would

831
00:45:56,239 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 6: get branded with his initials, branded with his initials, and

832
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:04,799
Speaker 6: it was a humiliation ritual. He would have sex with

833
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 6: these women. She developed this master slave program. You could

834
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:12,319
Speaker 6: only do what Keith wanted. Well, she just got out

835
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:15,760
Speaker 6: of prison and she's talking for the first time publicly.

836
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 3: And it's fascinating, by the way. It was fascinating. But

837
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:19,360
Speaker 3: they thought they were.

838
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:22,399
Speaker 1: Getting branded with like an air symbol, or so they did.

839
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:26,239
Speaker 1: They didn't realize until after the facts, until he was

840
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 1: brought up on charges when they were like, oh, I'm

841
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 1: out of the colt that they were he was actually

842
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:32,799
Speaker 1: branding them with his initials.

843
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:34,720
Speaker 6: Uh huh, because it kind of up was like a mountain,

844
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:38,439
Speaker 6: like what the sun set? You know, it's really k R,

845
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:42,440
Speaker 6: which is Keith near scary stuff. Well, she's talking for

846
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 6: the first time. She's got a new podcast.

847
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 1: Can we continue this after the let's do it my

848
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 1: seat all right? Yeah, well stick around. We are getting

849
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 1: right back into this. I need to know all about

850
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 1: the Battlestar Galactica stars. And we also have a really

851
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:02,160
Speaker 1: stunning last minute clemency to decision out of Oklahoma. We've

852
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:04,560
Speaker 1: got that and a whole lot more true crime tonight.

853
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 1: We're talking true Crime All the Time. Welcome back to

854
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 1: True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true crime all

855
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 1: the Time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with Courtney Armstrong and

856
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 1: Body Move in on a pretty heavy night. We're talking

857
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:31,400
Speaker 1: about some pretty heavy stuff. We have been unpacking a

858
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 1: little bit more about the Nexium cult. If you guys

859
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:37,959
Speaker 1: haven't seen a documentary called The Vow, it's really really,

860
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:42,279
Speaker 1: really good yea. And it follows this Nier case and

861
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 1: there's two seasons. There's two seasons and it's really long.

862
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:48,800
Speaker 6: So if you like a long watch, because I really

863
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 6: do get when I watch something sometimes I want to

864
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 6: sink my teeth into it a little bit.

865
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 3: And this gives you the opportunity.

866
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:57,000
Speaker 6: And by the way, it's told from one of the

867
00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 6: filmmakers who joined the cult who escaped. He's filming the

868
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 6: escape and then but his wife stays in.

869
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:07,279
Speaker 3: Oh, the wife was still like a little had to

870
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:07,839
Speaker 3: pair off.

871
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:08,040
Speaker 2: Well.

872
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 1: The cult leader is teeth Renire. He was like, I

873
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 1: think I should have a camera following me all the

874
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:19,600
Speaker 1: time because I was so incredibly interesting important. Yeah, So

875
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:23,000
Speaker 1: this guy had his own little like crew that he

876
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:24,799
Speaker 1: was like somehow, by the way, I don't even think

877
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 1: they were getting paid. He just like somehow had them

878
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 1: following him with a camera all the time, like this

879
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:33,440
Speaker 1: guy making eggs on a walk, like this guy was

880
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:37,719
Speaker 1: filming himself. That's how interesting he thought he was, right,

881
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:41,239
Speaker 1: that's how important he thought he was. That he had

882
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 1: a film crew following him all the time, and that

883
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 1: he read ultimately being the doc.

884
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 6: He read like the Art of War like once and

885
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 6: thought he was like a genius from it or something

886
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 6: like he just was one of those guys, right, like

887
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 6: this guy and Stephanie's right, he really had a film

888
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 6: crew following him all the time. And the story of

889
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 6: the vow is told through one of the dudes who

890
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 6: was the film crew. So of course he knows how

891
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 6: to film. So he's like, I'm gonna do my own

892
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 6: thing and he makes his own comentary. It's so good,

893
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:10,840
Speaker 6: and it's again it's called the Bow and it's on HBO.

894
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 6: It's if you're in the cults and stuff like I am,

895
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:15,919
Speaker 6: I love me too.

896
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:18,240
Speaker 1: But by the way, because it all starts so normal,

897
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:20,239
Speaker 1: that's why I know we get about it.

898
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 3: But well again, hook.

899
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:25,359
Speaker 1: Line and synchare you know, they're like you empowerment Oh,

900
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 1: you want to be an entrepreneur. I want to be

901
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 1: an entrepreneur. Oh you want to be you want to

902
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:34,680
Speaker 1: be smart exactly for Tom Cruise my Battle Star Galaxica folks.

903
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:39,359
Speaker 1: You know, yes, it's very enticing and like the baseline

904
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 1: Tier one intro, all sounds pretty coosh, it's all pretty

905
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:47,280
Speaker 1: kosher until it it's real weird and now you know everybody,

906
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 1: and then and then the door.

907
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 6: Is locked right right. And you know Alison Mack who

908
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:55,960
Speaker 6: we were just talking about in the previous segment. She

909
00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:58,799
Speaker 6: was the you know, well known TV actress from the

910
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 6: show Smallville, and she joined in two thousand and six

911
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:06,240
Speaker 6: during a period where she knows she was searching for purpose.

912
00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:09,680
Speaker 6: She was feeling a little bit lost professionally. She was

913
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,880
Speaker 6: vulnerable to this kind of self improvement program right which

914
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:16,440
Speaker 6: next to him offered, and she joined willingly and full

915
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:17,120
Speaker 6: steam ahead.

916
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:19,320
Speaker 3: She really jumped in because.

917
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:23,320
Speaker 6: At first it gave her purpose, right and keith Ynar

918
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:24,920
Speaker 6: saw that in her. And by the way, she's a

919
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 6: beautiful woman too on top of it, so you know,

920
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:29,680
Speaker 6: she joined it head first.

921
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:31,920
Speaker 3: And again she was in.

922
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:36,400
Speaker 6: Charge of this doss cult inside the colts. She started

923
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:39,319
Speaker 6: out she was a. You know, she joined up the

924
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:41,759
Speaker 6: Stripe Path and you'll learn about this if you if

925
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:45,279
Speaker 6: you watch the show, but it's how you advance within

926
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:47,440
Speaker 6: this cult. You have to wear these little sashes and

927
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:49,440
Speaker 6: their different colors kind of like karate.

928
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:52,640
Speaker 3: Belts, like some of them stripes like a you know, you're.

929
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:58,360
Speaker 6: Yeah, okay, but they're like they're like little scarves and

930
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 6: they wear them around so you know who who is

931
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:02,359
Speaker 6: in charge and who you've got to listen to, who

932
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:04,399
Speaker 6: you got to take orders from. You got to listen

933
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 6: to people who are your coaches, and those are the

934
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 6: people above you in rank, so to speak. And she

935
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 6: quickly rose through the Stripe Path. She dedicated her life

936
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:16,880
Speaker 6: to this Nixian cult. By twenty fifteen, she was basically

937
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:22,920
Speaker 6: near second in command within this doss. Former members describe

938
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:28,239
Speaker 6: her as like super manipulative, completely under Keith Rnar's psychological control,

939
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:31,880
Speaker 6: and really jealous about enforcing obedience to Keith, like she was,

940
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:34,200
Speaker 6: you know, if you if you don't listen to what

941
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 6: you know, the master said, you're going to get a whipping,

942
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:40,960
Speaker 6: and that would happen. People were getting physically abused by

943
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:42,279
Speaker 6: by by her.

944
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:44,360
Speaker 3: By her permission too.

945
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:47,479
Speaker 1: It was is you know, complicated stuff again not making

946
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 1: an excuse for that behavior. No, but you know she

947
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 1: was also a victim, right, and this all falls into

948
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:56,759
Speaker 1: the whole grooming thing, and it's kind of like that's

949
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:57,839
Speaker 1: very complicated.

950
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:03,640
Speaker 7: Yeah, Like you know, instead, well, Elaine Maxwell with some accountability,

951
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:07,759
Speaker 7: because Alison Mack is now explicitly stating I don't see

952
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:12,120
Speaker 7: myself as innocent. And for example, on her podcast also

953
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:16,799
Speaker 7: she recounts this one story of coercing a woman into

954
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:20,719
Speaker 7: sex with the leader Vernier and she describes it now

955
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:27,160
Speaker 7: as rape and acknowledges her participation. So again, accountability is

956
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:29,320
Speaker 7: something Gilaene Maxwell does not seem.

957
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:32,480
Speaker 3: To have a sash for. No, and again two other

958
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:33,600
Speaker 3: like three things.

959
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:35,640
Speaker 1: You know, this was like you know, air quotes a

960
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:38,560
Speaker 1: slightly smaller thing, you know, Gileien Mac there's thousands and

961
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 1: thousands of Epstein victims, but they say in her case,

962
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 1: she was also pretty young too. She will know, you're

963
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:48,919
Speaker 1: in Hollywood, you're getting bounced around, you're on a show.

964
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:52,000
Speaker 1: Now you're not on a show, you know, and for

965
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:55,880
Speaker 1: you know, this cult leader, it's the perfect person also

966
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:59,000
Speaker 1: to bring into your web because she was slightly influential

967
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:01,040
Speaker 1: because she was young, she was pretty, and she was

968
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:04,880
Speaker 1: slightly famous, right, so that made her the perfect recruiter.

969
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:06,279
Speaker 3: She seemed to you know.

970
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:08,840
Speaker 1: Sometimes maybe this is a little bit of where Galliene

971
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:12,479
Speaker 1: Maxwell may have fallen similar. You know, she probably loved

972
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:14,960
Speaker 1: this guy too and thought this is how I'm going

973
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:18,960
Speaker 1: to gain favor. And that's the one only thing I

974
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:21,880
Speaker 1: can say about Galliene Maxwell that I'm so curious about still,

975
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 1: you know, because she seemed to love that Epstein back

976
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 1: in the day, and then he probably discarded her for younger,

977
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:32,880
Speaker 1: younger tail frankly, for fourteen fifteen year old girls. He

978
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:36,480
Speaker 1: liked them real young, and she maybe out aged that

979
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:41,839
Speaker 1: relationship and somehow just like kept the wheels turning and

980
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:43,920
Speaker 1: kept the fuel coming in.

981
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 3: More girls, more girls, more girls.

982
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:49,719
Speaker 1: And like yet somewhere in that she probably felt validated

983
00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:51,920
Speaker 1: by him, which is also so mental.

984
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 3: I mean, I'll not make an excuse for her. I

985
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:53,839
Speaker 3: think she.

986
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:56,400
Speaker 1: Stinks this is for clarity, and I want her to

987
00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 1: not have puppies and getting exercise, and I think she

988
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:02,240
Speaker 1: should be serving toime. I'm in a maximum security prison

989
00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:05,719
Speaker 1: for twenty years for being a sex trafficker. I'm not

990
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:08,759
Speaker 1: underestimating that I'm just trying to unpack how that even

991
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:09,319
Speaker 1: happens in.

992
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:09,920
Speaker 3: The first place.

993
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:13,480
Speaker 1: Well, she, Courtney seems ralls right now, get it out,

994
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 1: court Come on, I say, you know what today because

995
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:18,360
Speaker 1: something there's a picture of her from today.

996
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:21,799
Speaker 7: Yeah, and she's sitting there and she's rubbing Ebstein's feet

997
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:22,279
Speaker 7: and they're on.

998
00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:25,200
Speaker 3: A price chess. She's got a chess or cat gran on.

999
00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:27,400
Speaker 7: And I'm sorry because you're like, oh, you know, she

1000
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 7: aged out, and I know you're not making an excuses

1001
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:32,560
Speaker 7: remote you get it, of course. But however, the cash

1002
00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:36,120
Speaker 7: and the parties and everything else, she was served very well.

1003
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:40,000
Speaker 1: She was served very well ranged by the way she was.

1004
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:43,040
Speaker 1: She was like rubbing his gross feet in that photo.

1005
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:46,359
Speaker 1: But I think that also does go to show she's

1006
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:48,520
Speaker 1: still sort of like that was her boyfriend at one point.

1007
00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:50,799
Speaker 1: Those two were dating at some point back in the day,

1008
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:55,840
Speaker 1: and then they became like cohorts as opposed to lovers

1009
00:54:56,680 --> 00:54:59,880
Speaker 1: or who knows, but they weren't girlfriend and boyfriend. Epstein

1010
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:03,360
Speaker 1: wasn't marrying Elaine whether no matter.

1011
00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:03,759
Speaker 5: What she did.

1012
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 1: So when I saw that photo of her rubin on

1013
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:09,279
Speaker 1: his feet as a grown woman, and he's just you know,

1014
00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:14,200
Speaker 1: probably had multiple relations with young women prior to that.

1015
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:17,440
Speaker 1: It just showed that she was sort of still under

1016
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:20,360
Speaker 1: his spell, this guy. And by the way, I'm just

1017
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:22,399
Speaker 1: saying that for anybody who's ever been under a.

1018
00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:26,520
Speaker 6: Spell, well, Allison comes definitely under Keith spell. Like he

1019
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:30,400
Speaker 6: created this doss basically how it was. It was designed

1020
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:34,320
Speaker 6: by Keith Rinier and it was marketed to other women.

1021
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:38,600
Speaker 6: And when you joined, and it was exclusively for women. Okay,

1022
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:40,200
Speaker 6: Keith was the only man.

1023
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:42,560
Speaker 1: So I didn't know that. I realized that I thought

1024
00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:44,360
Speaker 1: there was some one the guy that was the filmmaker

1025
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:45,319
Speaker 1: was he wasn't.

1026
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:47,520
Speaker 3: He didn't even know about it. He didn't he didn't

1027
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 3: know that was not until after, not until after.

1028
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:55,040
Speaker 6: So it was marketed for a women only empowerment, like

1029
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:58,600
Speaker 6: the sorority kind of thing. And in order to join,

1030
00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:01,319
Speaker 6: you had to give a police a piece of collateral

1031
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:04,960
Speaker 6: to your your recruiter, which in the first level, of

1032
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:05,880
Speaker 6: course was Allison.

1033
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:07,440
Speaker 3: She was the top recruiter.

1034
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:10,439
Speaker 6: And so like Steph, say, you wanted to join because

1035
00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:12,359
Speaker 6: you're the one who would join a col right, yes, yes, yes,

1036
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:14,520
Speaker 6: if you wanted to join culture, you would have to

1037
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:19,680
Speaker 6: take a naked picture of yourself wants photo or something terrible.

1038
00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:21,560
Speaker 3: They've already accepted me in the video.

1039
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:24,880
Speaker 6: You would have to video videotape yourself something saying something

1040
00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:28,160
Speaker 6: terrible about like me or something like somebody close to

1041
00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:32,680
Speaker 6: you what I would and then send it and then

1042
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:35,080
Speaker 6: send it. And that was what was collateral because if

1043
00:56:35,080 --> 00:56:35,520
Speaker 6: you ever.

1044
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:41,239
Speaker 1: Left, wait, wait, so they were blackmailing. This is the

1045
00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:44,839
Speaker 1: signature move. This is not so non Epstein like, so wait,

1046
00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:46,400
Speaker 1: let me just make sure I'm tracking this. So this

1047
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:50,200
Speaker 1: creep rineer, by the way, if you've seen a photo

1048
00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:50,920
Speaker 1: of him, you're like.

1049
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:52,480
Speaker 3: Nasty girl roady.

1050
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:56,640
Speaker 1: So he forces me under the will of night, like, hey,

1051
00:56:56,680 --> 00:56:58,480
Speaker 1: if you send a you have to text all of

1052
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:02,240
Speaker 1: us a naked photo of view just while saying something

1053
00:57:02,640 --> 00:57:06,479
Speaker 1: really terrible about somebody that you love, and then because

1054
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:09,799
Speaker 1: if you get weird or wayward, will release that.

1055
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:11,800
Speaker 3: It was called.

1056
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:16,760
Speaker 1: I suppose so might have gotten suspicious at this point.

1057
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:17,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, would you?

1058
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:21,840
Speaker 1: Maybe I mean naked photo.

1059
00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:25,600
Speaker 6: But well, the way they marketed it though, is like

1060
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:28,840
Speaker 6: this is your next level. This is like you've been in.

1061
00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:33,240
Speaker 1: It's also like freedom, sexual freedom, and like your body

1062
00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:35,000
Speaker 1: is your gospel and like.

1063
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:36,720
Speaker 3: Go ahead, don't be ashamed.

1064
00:57:37,160 --> 00:57:39,720
Speaker 1: That's also a piece of this, this particular cult is

1065
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:40,560
Speaker 1: they were really.

1066
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:44,720
Speaker 3: Into like empowerment of your body. So get naked, take

1067
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:46,760
Speaker 3: some photos.

1068
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:50,200
Speaker 6: We all everyone did it exactly, and your high level

1069
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:52,600
Speaker 6: coach already you ruse Alison.

1070
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:55,000
Speaker 1: Mack, the actress from Smallville that you're like, Okay, she

1071
00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:55,920
Speaker 1: can't be that bad.

1072
00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:59,120
Speaker 6: Right, yeah, in this way in order. You know, when

1073
00:57:59,120 --> 00:58:02,000
Speaker 6: you're in this cult and you've been in it for years,

1074
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:05,640
Speaker 6: you know your brainwashed, and you want to please Keith, right,

1075
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:09,120
Speaker 6: and this is marketed as a way to please Keith,

1076
00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:12,040
Speaker 6: like this is the path to empowerment. This is the

1077
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:15,480
Speaker 6: high level Sisterhood. This is a secret elite group, and

1078
00:58:15,560 --> 00:58:19,480
Speaker 6: you're you're being invited. Of course you're going to do it.

1079
00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:22,920
Speaker 6: You know, you have to put yourself in those.

1080
00:58:28,680 --> 00:58:31,840
Speaker 3: Sorry, right, that would be red flag too.

1081
00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:34,840
Speaker 6: So they would get this collateral and it was a

1082
00:58:35,040 --> 00:58:37,960
Speaker 6: it was a way to control and then they would

1083
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:41,800
Speaker 6: text you you can have you know, three hundred calories.

1084
00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:43,760
Speaker 1: Today because they saw your photo and they're like, oh,

1085
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:48,400
Speaker 1: she needs to shake a few and super diet, Yeah,

1086
00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:49,160
Speaker 1: super diet.

1087
00:58:49,160 --> 00:58:52,440
Speaker 6: And it became whoever your recruiter was was your master

1088
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:53,520
Speaker 6: and you are a slave.

1089
00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:54,320
Speaker 3: That's what they called it.

1090
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:56,640
Speaker 6: This is not my words, and it was a way

1091
00:58:56,680 --> 00:59:00,160
Speaker 6: to control every woman because you'd have to text your

1092
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:02,320
Speaker 6: your master, may I please have a rice cake with

1093
00:59:02,360 --> 00:59:03,160
Speaker 6: cottage cheese?

1094
00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:04,439
Speaker 1: You may?

1095
00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:08,000
Speaker 6: You have permission and then you have to take a

1096
00:59:08,040 --> 00:59:11,320
Speaker 6: picture of your food and she would approve it.

1097
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:12,760
Speaker 3: It was all control.

1098
00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:17,120
Speaker 6: Well, finally it all came out. Everyone got arrested. Alison

1099
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:19,040
Speaker 6: was one of them, and now she has this podcast

1100
00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:20,840
Speaker 6: and that's what's going on.

1101
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:23,360
Speaker 1: So I listened, Okay, this is so much to absorb

1102
00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:24,640
Speaker 1: if you haven't been, there's a lot.

1103
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:25,120
Speaker 3: That's a wait.

1104
00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:30,880
Speaker 1: That was a very good synopsis. Five well done, complicated stuff.

1105
00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:34,320
Speaker 1: So my initial instinct in Ava Kaplan and I were

1106
00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:36,840
Speaker 1: talking about this today when she was prepping this, I

1107
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:39,920
Speaker 1: was like, why doesn't she get out of her prison

1108
00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:42,560
Speaker 1: sentence or her jail sentence and then just be quiet

1109
00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:45,040
Speaker 1: for a hot minute. We've heard enough from you Alison

1110
00:59:45,120 --> 00:59:48,720
Speaker 1: Mack for a second. And why the podcast? I'm not

1111
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:51,320
Speaker 1: sure I'm feeling it. And then she was quick to

1112
00:59:51,400 --> 00:59:54,000
Speaker 1: remind me and I listened a bit to the podcast

1113
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:56,800
Speaker 1: that if like, she doesn't talk about it and sort

1114
00:59:56,840 --> 00:59:59,680
Speaker 1: of these grooming tactics, how would we know it so,

1115
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:02,880
Speaker 1: And to Courtney's point, she is taking full accountability.

1116
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:06,360
Speaker 3: She is straight up saying this was real, weird.

1117
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:08,520
Speaker 1: It's very bad that I was a part of this,

1118
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:11,560
Speaker 1: you know, I because of me, this person.

1119
01:00:11,320 --> 01:00:12,520
Speaker 3: Was actually raped.

1120
01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:15,840
Speaker 1: She got such a low sentence because you know, she

1121
01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:18,480
Speaker 1: pled guilty and there was probably some plea deals, et

1122
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:21,760
Speaker 1: cetera in order for that to happen. And it really

1123
01:00:21,760 --> 01:00:24,680
Speaker 1: did change my opinion because in reality, yeah, I have

1124
01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:25,800
Speaker 1: to kind of give her credit.

1125
01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:26,680
Speaker 3: She did that.

1126
01:00:26,840 --> 01:00:30,880
Speaker 1: She is actually saying what she did and what she

1127
01:00:30,920 --> 01:00:33,680
Speaker 1: should have done, and that's how we know how.

1128
01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:36,080
Speaker 3: To keep ourselves safe. Well, listen to her charges.

1129
01:00:36,160 --> 01:00:42,280
Speaker 6: Okay, it was sex trafficking, forced labor, racketeering, identity theft, extortion,

1130
01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:45,080
Speaker 6: forced labor, and documented servitude.

1131
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:47,320
Speaker 3: She pled guilty to racketeering.

1132
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:51,160
Speaker 6: She admitted, you know, recruiting all the women collecting collateral,

1133
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:55,360
Speaker 6: manipulating and coursing them using threats of the blackmail. She

1134
01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:59,640
Speaker 6: admitted everything. She expressed remorse, which the judge found credible.

1135
01:01:00,160 --> 01:01:03,640
Speaker 6: She cooperated with prosecutors, although not as seeply as others

1136
01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:06,760
Speaker 6: would like. You know, there were other people that cooperated

1137
01:01:06,840 --> 01:01:09,600
Speaker 6: more fully, but she was sentenced to three years in

1138
01:01:09,720 --> 01:01:14,360
Speaker 6: federal prison, which is significantly lower, you know, than what

1139
01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:16,600
Speaker 6: she could have gotten. But it's because she had this,

1140
01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:20,280
Speaker 6: you know, expressions of guilt she felt. According to the judge,

1141
01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:22,960
Speaker 6: he believed that she was you know, she was out

1142
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:26,000
Speaker 6: of it. She was also manipulated by Keith Rinier. He

1143
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:29,640
Speaker 6: recognized that she's also although she was a perpetrator, she's

1144
01:01:29,720 --> 01:01:31,880
Speaker 6: also a victim, which I think you can be both.

1145
01:01:32,160 --> 01:01:35,840
Speaker 1: Of course, that's why it's so important that we're talking

1146
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:36,240
Speaker 1: about this.

1147
01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:39,040
Speaker 6: And well, one thing that's super important I want to

1148
01:01:39,040 --> 01:01:43,360
Speaker 6: get in really quickly. Some of her victims submitted letters

1149
01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:45,400
Speaker 6: asking for leniency to the judge. So I think the

1150
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:48,520
Speaker 6: judge really took that into into play when he was giving.

1151
01:01:48,280 --> 01:01:52,240
Speaker 9: Her Octis that okay if they said that, because I

1152
01:01:52,280 --> 01:01:54,280
Speaker 9: was about to say earlier, Well, she is an actress,

1153
01:01:54,280 --> 01:01:55,680
Speaker 9: so she can probably you know.

1154
01:01:55,720 --> 01:01:58,240
Speaker 3: That's true. She can probably cry and command, right.

1155
01:01:58,400 --> 01:02:02,360
Speaker 9: Right, So but you know, yeah, no.

1156
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:05,640
Speaker 1: No, it's so it's so it's so nuanced. And again,

1157
01:02:05,800 --> 01:02:09,640
Speaker 1: unless you've been in that situation, how are you to say?

1158
01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:11,760
Speaker 1: So it is important that she's talking about it. Can

1159
01:02:11,800 --> 01:02:13,960
Speaker 1: we finish this a little bit when we come back? Yeah,

1160
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:15,440
Speaker 1: before going into another to do it.

1161
01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:18,160
Speaker 3: Sure, so much good stuff. Yeah, keep it year. We

1162
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:20,680
Speaker 3: are going to continue this true crime tonight.

1163
01:02:30,840 --> 01:02:34,080
Speaker 1: Welcome back to true crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

1164
01:02:34,120 --> 01:02:37,040
Speaker 1: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

1165
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:39,680
Speaker 1: Courtney Armstrong, Body Movement and if ever there was a

1166
01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:43,120
Speaker 1: night for our weighted vests. Let's pop it on. Courtney's

1167
01:02:43,120 --> 01:02:45,320
Speaker 1: popping hers on. I'm popping mine on.

1168
01:02:45,560 --> 01:02:49,680
Speaker 3: I can't is mine my chest books. I'm standing on

1169
01:02:49,960 --> 01:02:53,680
Speaker 3: my shoulders desk. Yeah, I'm all about the pop.

1170
01:02:54,440 --> 01:02:57,919
Speaker 1: She's taken names, she's taken names. She looks like she's

1171
01:02:57,960 --> 01:03:02,640
Speaker 1: about to, frankly, go to war. You are, it's on you.

1172
01:03:02,760 --> 01:03:04,080
Speaker 1: Have you been drafted.

1173
01:03:05,360 --> 01:03:07,720
Speaker 3: Honestly like one of those Viking shield me.

1174
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:08,560
Speaker 8: Yes.

1175
01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:15,400
Speaker 3: So inspired by Haley Robson, I just want to just

1176
01:03:15,440 --> 01:03:18,400
Speaker 3: like give me and fight the power.

1177
01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:22,880
Speaker 6: I'm still fired up from her. Say he's still fired up, Like,

1178
01:03:23,320 --> 01:03:25,160
Speaker 6: I don't know. She's very inspiring and I don't I

1179
01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:26,720
Speaker 6: don't you know, I'm not one of those people.

1180
01:03:26,760 --> 01:03:27,080
Speaker 1: I don't know.

1181
01:03:27,120 --> 01:03:29,240
Speaker 3: She just really inspired me a little bit. Yeah, I

1182
01:03:29,320 --> 01:03:29,760
Speaker 3: love it.

1183
01:03:29,880 --> 01:03:30,680
Speaker 1: I love it. I love it.

1184
01:03:30,720 --> 01:03:31,440
Speaker 3: I love it too.

1185
01:03:31,520 --> 01:03:33,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, listen, I guess it just speaks to the fact

1186
01:03:33,280 --> 01:03:38,320
Speaker 1: that there is a community, right, there's there are voices

1187
01:03:38,360 --> 01:03:40,080
Speaker 1: and there are people that touch our hearts that we

1188
01:03:40,200 --> 01:03:44,480
Speaker 1: just aren't necessarily expecting. And again, if you haven't joined

1189
01:03:44,520 --> 01:03:48,120
Speaker 1: the convo, please do eight eight eight three one crime.

1190
01:03:48,880 --> 01:03:51,520
Speaker 1: Uh you know, Sam and Adam are waiting by the

1191
01:03:51,520 --> 01:03:54,600
Speaker 1: phone literally, or you could always leave us a talk bag,

1192
01:03:54,680 --> 01:03:56,080
Speaker 1: please do so.

1193
01:03:56,160 --> 01:04:00,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, back to this nexium. Okay, So did I say it?

1194
01:04:02,120 --> 01:04:05,520
Speaker 3: Like this shampoo? It's like n x v I M

1195
01:04:05,640 --> 01:04:07,480
Speaker 3: is like something they use like weird.

1196
01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:11,760
Speaker 1: They use like weird, like Roman numbers or something in it.

1197
01:04:11,840 --> 01:04:14,280
Speaker 3: Right, it's all very well, that's how Yeah, it's n

1198
01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:16,960
Speaker 3: x V I M I think is what it is.

1199
01:04:17,040 --> 01:04:18,000
Speaker 3: It's just very weird.

1200
01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:23,440
Speaker 1: I think cults and abuse in general have similar it's

1201
01:04:23,440 --> 01:04:26,600
Speaker 1: a similar blueprint. And I think, honestly, Haley said it

1202
01:04:26,640 --> 01:04:29,800
Speaker 1: so well, it's really not until you step away from

1203
01:04:29,800 --> 01:04:33,840
Speaker 1: it entirely. Well and you've had some distance from it,

1204
01:04:33,880 --> 01:04:37,320
Speaker 1: can you actually see what right just happened?

1205
01:04:37,480 --> 01:04:37,640
Speaker 5: Right?

1206
01:04:37,800 --> 01:04:38,080
Speaker 3: You know?

1207
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:38,439
Speaker 8: I don't.

1208
01:04:38,520 --> 01:04:40,360
Speaker 6: I don't think you realize until you're out of it,

1209
01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:43,280
Speaker 6: like Haley said, like you you know the course of control,

1210
01:04:43,360 --> 01:04:45,760
Speaker 6: Like I'm gonna call your parents and tell them you're

1211
01:04:45,760 --> 01:04:47,720
Speaker 6: doing this. Well, Nixian was doing the same thing with

1212
01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:51,720
Speaker 6: this collateral. Yes, like I'm gonna you're gonna you're gonna

1213
01:04:51,720 --> 01:04:54,120
Speaker 6: make this video or write a letter saying all these

1214
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:57,400
Speaker 6: terrible things about like your mother. Let's say, right, like

1215
01:04:57,640 --> 01:05:00,920
Speaker 6: God forbid and if you you know, if you.

1216
01:05:00,920 --> 01:05:03,920
Speaker 3: Talk crap or you want to leave, I'm going to

1217
01:05:03,960 --> 01:05:04,680
Speaker 3: send this to her.

1218
01:05:05,000 --> 01:05:08,080
Speaker 6: Your mother is going to know everything that happened, that

1219
01:05:08,160 --> 01:05:10,800
Speaker 6: you've done, and that you're doing these terrible things.

1220
01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:13,520
Speaker 1: And by the way that happened, I think that happened

1221
01:05:13,560 --> 01:05:17,720
Speaker 1: to I said Catherine Oxenberger. She was a star Dynasty,

1222
01:05:18,200 --> 01:05:20,800
Speaker 1: she was one of the Dynasty stars, and her daughter

1223
01:05:21,200 --> 01:05:22,040
Speaker 1: in this cult.

1224
01:05:22,880 --> 01:05:23,080
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1225
01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:25,480
Speaker 1: Part of like the interesting part of her story was that,

1226
01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:27,400
Speaker 1: you know, this was a mother who was trying to

1227
01:05:27,480 --> 01:05:29,200
Speaker 1: get her daughter out of the cult.

1228
01:05:29,680 --> 01:05:30,000
Speaker 5: She had.

1229
01:05:30,120 --> 01:05:32,640
Speaker 1: You know, she had a big career, she had a big,

1230
01:05:32,720 --> 01:05:36,000
Speaker 1: you know, affluent life, and yet her daughter has somehow

1231
01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:39,080
Speaker 1: found herself in this dumb cult with you know, this

1232
01:05:39,200 --> 01:05:42,560
Speaker 1: clown who's claiming to be this you know, super god

1233
01:05:42,600 --> 01:05:44,720
Speaker 1: and having sex with all of these young women and

1234
01:05:44,760 --> 01:05:49,640
Speaker 1: branding his initials on their thighs and now Alison Mack,

1235
01:05:50,040 --> 01:05:52,920
Speaker 1: who had a very big career as an actress, who

1236
01:05:53,000 --> 01:05:56,000
Speaker 1: has now served her time. And it's funny. It's like,

1237
01:05:56,040 --> 01:05:59,280
Speaker 1: you know, we that is the thing about grooming that

1238
01:05:59,320 --> 01:06:01,960
Speaker 1: I think is sick, right, but I think I think

1239
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:04,560
Speaker 1: this is the conversation, right, So it is, and we

1240
01:06:04,640 --> 01:06:05,920
Speaker 1: hear this even with Haley.

1241
01:06:06,240 --> 01:06:08,800
Speaker 3: Suddenly you're in the beehive. It's terrible.

1242
01:06:09,040 --> 01:06:11,480
Speaker 1: You acclimate, you get used to it, and now you're

1243
01:06:11,560 --> 01:06:15,160
Speaker 1: sort of hanging on your abusers every word. And then

1244
01:06:15,200 --> 01:06:17,680
Speaker 1: he says, hey, bring us a few more, bring us

1245
01:06:17,680 --> 01:06:20,000
Speaker 1: a little bit more, and then that makes sense, and

1246
01:06:20,000 --> 01:06:22,120
Speaker 1: then you bring a little more, and little do you know,

1247
01:06:22,200 --> 01:06:26,840
Speaker 1: suddenly you're the groomer. Unintentionally you're also the victim. So

1248
01:06:26,880 --> 01:06:30,120
Speaker 1: it's like because you're totally proplicated of course, right. So

1249
01:06:30,320 --> 01:06:32,440
Speaker 1: Catherine Oxenberg, you mentioned that, I'm so glad you, dick.

1250
01:06:32,560 --> 01:06:33,680
Speaker 1: I had forgotten about that.

1251
01:06:34,360 --> 01:06:36,480
Speaker 6: Her She and her daughter went to one of these

1252
01:06:36,520 --> 01:06:40,200
Speaker 6: self help seminars OHR, and they were both kind of

1253
01:06:40,200 --> 01:06:43,360
Speaker 6: into it for a hot minute. But Catherine was like, eh,

1254
01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:45,960
Speaker 6: not for me, but India her daughter was like, I

1255
01:06:46,080 --> 01:06:49,840
Speaker 6: kind of like this. So what happened was because Catherine

1256
01:06:49,880 --> 01:06:51,320
Speaker 6: was like, hey, it's not for me and never really

1257
01:06:51,360 --> 01:06:53,120
Speaker 6: kind of signed up for like the whole thing.

1258
01:06:53,880 --> 01:06:54,280
Speaker 3: India.

1259
01:06:54,400 --> 01:06:57,680
Speaker 6: Her daughter Lovely by the way, has to cut her

1260
01:06:57,720 --> 01:07:01,120
Speaker 6: mom off and like stops talking to her. And there's

1261
01:07:01,160 --> 01:07:05,720
Speaker 6: a documentary it's called Seduced Inside the Nixium Cult and

1262
01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:08,560
Speaker 6: it came out like right during it came out during COVID.

1263
01:07:08,600 --> 01:07:11,800
Speaker 3: I think it's very good. I feel like it's very good.

1264
01:07:11,880 --> 01:07:15,600
Speaker 6: And that's her story, that Catherine story trying to get

1265
01:07:15,600 --> 01:07:19,240
Speaker 6: her daughter. And the filmmaker who made the vow, who

1266
01:07:19,280 --> 01:07:22,040
Speaker 6: was also in the cult, like we were talking about earlier. Yes,

1267
01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:26,560
Speaker 6: he is in Seduced because he's you know, they're working

1268
01:07:26,600 --> 01:07:30,200
Speaker 6: together to get everybody out, the victims out of the cult.

1269
01:07:30,280 --> 01:07:31,120
Speaker 3: It's very good.

1270
01:07:31,480 --> 01:07:34,360
Speaker 1: So even though I've seen all of these somehow somewhere

1271
01:07:35,120 --> 01:07:37,080
Speaker 1: forgetting a part, this is the part that I didn't

1272
01:07:37,120 --> 01:07:41,200
Speaker 1: totally get. So the filmmaker who's a male, Yes, what

1273
01:07:41,240 --> 01:07:43,480
Speaker 1: was his involvement? He didn't know his wife was in

1274
01:07:43,520 --> 01:07:46,640
Speaker 1: the cult? No, well he thought he got she was

1275
01:07:46,720 --> 01:07:49,640
Speaker 1: not in the cult. No, No, they're all in the cult.

1276
01:07:49,920 --> 01:07:53,520
Speaker 6: But the women that we're talking about are in doss

1277
01:07:53,680 --> 01:07:54,720
Speaker 6: the cult, within the cult.

1278
01:07:54,720 --> 01:07:58,520
Speaker 3: Oh, the subcult. That's it's a secret it's a secret group.

1279
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:01,160
Speaker 3: Oh I didn't realize that, right, right.

1280
01:08:01,040 --> 01:08:02,800
Speaker 6: But he gets like wind of it, he gets like

1281
01:08:02,840 --> 01:08:05,200
Speaker 6: wind of it. He's like, uh, he like tries. He leaves,

1282
01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:07,280
Speaker 6: but he wants his wife to come with him, and

1283
01:08:07,320 --> 01:08:09,959
Speaker 6: she's like, you're being crazy. You're not you know, she's

1284
01:08:10,000 --> 01:08:11,040
Speaker 6: like still brainwashed.

1285
01:08:11,040 --> 01:08:13,080
Speaker 3: But he leaves. He's like, I got to get out

1286
01:08:13,080 --> 01:08:13,280
Speaker 3: of here.

1287
01:08:13,280 --> 01:08:16,680
Speaker 6: I can't do this, you know, and she eventually follows him,

1288
01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:19,639
Speaker 6: like very shortly after, very shortly after.

1289
01:08:19,720 --> 01:08:21,200
Speaker 3: Didn't didn't stay in Wow.

1290
01:08:21,320 --> 01:08:24,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, So they they made the vow and he filmed

1291
01:08:25,000 --> 01:08:27,640
Speaker 6: all this while while it was happening, like while it

1292
01:08:27,720 --> 01:08:30,960
Speaker 6: was happening. And then they go to Catherine Oxenburg's house

1293
01:08:31,439 --> 01:08:33,639
Speaker 6: because you know, she's powerful and whatnot, and.

1294
01:08:33,840 --> 01:08:37,600
Speaker 3: She's like living in Malibu if I remember correctly.

1295
01:08:37,680 --> 01:08:41,240
Speaker 6: Right, And then they try to get India out and

1296
01:08:41,320 --> 01:08:44,280
Speaker 6: India's like, no, I'm happy I can't talk to real

1297
01:08:44,360 --> 01:08:46,760
Speaker 6: more and cuts off communication with her mother.

1298
01:08:47,000 --> 01:08:48,639
Speaker 3: But anyway, I don't want to give too much way.

1299
01:08:48,640 --> 01:08:49,479
Speaker 1: Could you watch it?

1300
01:08:49,640 --> 01:08:50,439
Speaker 3: You have to go watch it.

1301
01:08:50,439 --> 01:08:52,680
Speaker 1: It's also reminding me of that other dock with the

1302
01:08:52,800 --> 01:08:55,679
Speaker 1: TikTok star who's in like the dance house. I seen

1303
01:08:55,720 --> 01:08:56,160
Speaker 1: that one.

1304
01:08:56,280 --> 01:08:56,880
Speaker 3: I haven't seen that.

1305
01:08:57,120 --> 01:08:59,360
Speaker 1: Like it's apparently like, you know, you see the dancers

1306
01:08:59,400 --> 01:09:01,960
Speaker 1: on TikTok or on Instagram that are doing all the

1307
01:09:02,040 --> 01:09:05,320
Speaker 1: choreographed cool dancing, and little do you know, they're all

1308
01:09:05,479 --> 01:09:08,360
Speaker 1: in a house living together. That in the house has

1309
01:09:08,400 --> 01:09:10,680
Speaker 1: like a million different looks, so it looks like they're

1310
01:09:10,720 --> 01:09:12,400
Speaker 1: in a million different places, but they're actually in the

1311
01:09:12,400 --> 01:09:16,800
Speaker 1: same mansion. And that mansion is owned and run by

1312
01:09:16,840 --> 01:09:20,520
Speaker 1: someone who's in a cult, who's taking all their money.

1313
01:09:20,560 --> 01:09:23,840
Speaker 1: And the families are like, my daughter is like a

1314
01:09:23,880 --> 01:09:27,320
Speaker 1: ballerina and an incredible hip hop dancer, and she's somehow

1315
01:09:27,360 --> 01:09:31,800
Speaker 1: trapped in this weird dance house. We are out and

1316
01:09:31,880 --> 01:09:34,920
Speaker 1: she's coming out. Is it Dancing for the Devil? The

1317
01:09:34,960 --> 01:09:39,360
Speaker 1: seven million dollar ticult? Yeah, yeah, that's actually an interesting watch.

1318
01:09:39,400 --> 01:09:41,760
Speaker 1: I don't think that they've gotten out. I think that

1319
01:09:42,320 --> 01:09:45,679
Speaker 1: one daughter is still dancing for the Devil a legendly allegedly.

1320
01:09:45,760 --> 01:09:48,400
Speaker 6: Well, one thing that's really common you know, through our

1321
01:09:48,439 --> 01:09:52,880
Speaker 6: whole themes tonight actually, but with the Vow and Seduced,

1322
01:09:53,040 --> 01:09:57,280
Speaker 6: the Katherine Oxenberg documentary one, it really highlights and provides

1323
01:09:57,360 --> 01:10:00,760
Speaker 6: like a really unique and personal perspective on the grooming

1324
01:10:01,120 --> 01:10:04,960
Speaker 6: and control mechanisms that are being used on these young people.

1325
01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:07,120
Speaker 6: And I think it's important to watch all that, especially

1326
01:10:07,120 --> 01:10:08,240
Speaker 6: when we're talking about these themes.

1327
01:10:08,320 --> 01:10:09,559
Speaker 3: Right, Yes, and.

1328
01:10:09,479 --> 01:10:12,880
Speaker 6: It's so it's so, so good, so good, So please

1329
01:10:12,920 --> 01:10:14,680
Speaker 6: go watch it and then we can talk.

1330
01:10:14,680 --> 01:10:16,559
Speaker 1: Maybe doctor Jess can come on and talk to us

1331
01:10:16,600 --> 01:10:20,360
Speaker 1: a little bit about this too, because it's so complicated.

1332
01:10:20,439 --> 01:10:23,599
Speaker 1: But I think it's really easy to be victim too.

1333
01:10:23,720 --> 01:10:24,439
Speaker 3: Oh I do too.

1334
01:10:24,880 --> 01:10:28,000
Speaker 6: I absolutely agree, And like you said, I mean any

1335
01:10:28,000 --> 01:10:29,519
Speaker 6: one of us could happen to any one of us.

1336
01:10:29,840 --> 01:10:33,240
Speaker 3: And the isolation and also just family.

1337
01:10:33,400 --> 01:10:35,640
Speaker 1: Remember if you're feeling a little like lost in the

1338
01:10:35,680 --> 01:10:38,680
Speaker 1: sauce in your soul and you're not feeling whole by

1339
01:10:38,680 --> 01:10:40,879
Speaker 1: the way, raise your hand, how many times has anybody

1340
01:10:40,880 --> 01:10:41,240
Speaker 1: been there?

1341
01:10:41,280 --> 01:10:42,080
Speaker 3: How many times?

1342
01:10:42,720 --> 01:10:46,439
Speaker 1: If you're in that space and somebody rolls in really

1343
01:10:46,520 --> 01:10:50,120
Speaker 1: gently and they see you and they think you're amazing

1344
01:10:50,520 --> 01:10:53,800
Speaker 1: and they totally get you and see your potential and

1345
01:10:53,840 --> 01:10:58,679
Speaker 1: recognize your highest and best self, that is a great feeling.

1346
01:10:59,240 --> 01:11:02,280
Speaker 1: And then that's suddenly you realize is a form of

1347
01:11:02,439 --> 01:11:06,920
Speaker 1: entrapment as opposed to real sight, and that can be

1348
01:11:07,040 --> 01:11:10,080
Speaker 1: tier one. So I think that tier one version for

1349
01:11:10,160 --> 01:11:13,040
Speaker 1: everybody to hear is, you know, care for ourselves, right,

1350
01:11:13,040 --> 01:11:16,559
Speaker 1: everybody needs self care, pride in oneself, take care of yourself,

1351
01:11:16,600 --> 01:11:20,160
Speaker 1: feel good to yourself, be kind to yourself, because man,

1352
01:11:20,240 --> 01:11:21,080
Speaker 1: it's tough out there.

1353
01:11:21,360 --> 01:11:23,080
Speaker 3: It really is. It truly is.

1354
01:11:23,640 --> 01:11:25,400
Speaker 1: And not that a face mask is going to cure

1355
01:11:25,400 --> 01:11:27,519
Speaker 1: any of this, but you know, just like being nice

1356
01:11:27,560 --> 01:11:30,320
Speaker 1: to yourself. When you're feeling down on yourself and beating

1357
01:11:30,360 --> 01:11:33,400
Speaker 1: yourself up, it's almost like that's the perfect time for

1358
01:11:33,439 --> 01:11:35,280
Speaker 1: someone to swoop in and say, no, no.

1359
01:11:35,120 --> 01:11:37,880
Speaker 3: No, don't be down on yourself. You're amazing.

1360
01:11:38,240 --> 01:11:42,840
Speaker 1: And then that's some weirdo named Keith who's like, and

1361
01:11:42,920 --> 01:11:45,160
Speaker 1: come join my weird sex cult and I'm going to

1362
01:11:45,200 --> 01:11:47,479
Speaker 1: put your my initials in your thigh.

1363
01:11:48,080 --> 01:11:48,439
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1364
01:11:48,560 --> 01:11:50,559
Speaker 6: And it was like a ceremony. They'd have to strip

1365
01:11:50,640 --> 01:11:54,120
Speaker 6: naked in front of all the other women and literally

1366
01:11:54,120 --> 01:11:56,960
Speaker 6: get branded. And one of the women was describing like

1367
01:11:57,040 --> 01:12:00,439
Speaker 6: she could smell it. She could smell it looked like

1368
01:12:00,439 --> 01:12:02,599
Speaker 6: a little it was like a circle, and it looked

1369
01:12:02,600 --> 01:12:04,559
Speaker 6: like a mountain with like a sun. But it was

1370
01:12:04,640 --> 01:12:07,040
Speaker 6: really k r oh my god. But it was like

1371
01:12:07,080 --> 01:12:08,760
Speaker 6: sideways you have to look at it sideways and it

1372
01:12:08,800 --> 01:12:12,000
Speaker 6: so it literally says KR for Keith Vernier, he was

1373
01:12:12,040 --> 01:12:13,719
Speaker 6: branding these women, branding them.

1374
01:12:13,880 --> 01:12:15,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, he just like tilted his initials and it was

1375
01:12:16,040 --> 01:12:20,680
Speaker 1: always like right above, like your pubic bone. Yeah, and

1376
01:12:20,720 --> 01:12:21,800
Speaker 1: now they can't get rid of it.

1377
01:12:21,920 --> 01:12:23,559
Speaker 3: And now they can't get rid of it, which is

1378
01:12:23,640 --> 01:12:28,400
Speaker 3: really also an added tear, right, terrible, terrible, terrible.

1379
01:12:28,479 --> 01:12:30,720
Speaker 1: Quinny's just giving a very strange look right now, what's

1380
01:12:30,760 --> 01:12:31,720
Speaker 1: the look now?

1381
01:12:31,880 --> 01:12:36,680
Speaker 7: Just thinking about grooming and really and being branded and

1382
01:12:36,960 --> 01:12:37,960
Speaker 7: all of the above.

1383
01:12:38,680 --> 01:12:41,040
Speaker 1: It does it like suddenly you look like either you

1384
01:12:41,080 --> 01:12:44,240
Speaker 1: were super mad or about to ask a question, but

1385
01:12:44,360 --> 01:12:45,479
Speaker 1: you're feeling mad as hell.

1386
01:12:46,120 --> 01:12:48,280
Speaker 7: Absolutely, And if you are feeling mad as hell, we're

1387
01:12:48,280 --> 01:12:49,719
Speaker 7: at eight to eight three one crime.

1388
01:12:50,200 --> 01:12:51,080
Speaker 3: Give us a call.

1389
01:12:51,240 --> 01:12:55,040
Speaker 7: We have been talking about the Nexium cult and Jeffrey

1390
01:12:55,040 --> 01:12:57,200
Speaker 7: Ebstein and we'd love to hear your thoughts on any

1391
01:12:57,240 --> 01:12:59,560
Speaker 7: of it. And now we'd let's turn our attention to

1392
01:12:59,760 --> 01:13:00,439
Speaker 7: Dell five.

1393
01:13:01,040 --> 01:13:05,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, another one of my things. Night is very heavy.

1394
01:13:05,439 --> 01:13:08,000
Speaker 3: There's a lot we talk about it, yes, but this one.

1395
01:13:08,280 --> 01:13:10,519
Speaker 1: As soon as we were all talking about I was like, oh, well,

1396
01:13:10,680 --> 01:13:12,800
Speaker 1: the good news is we have body to discuss this

1397
01:13:12,880 --> 01:13:16,400
Speaker 1: with because you're such on the frontline of this case

1398
01:13:16,439 --> 01:13:17,639
Speaker 1: and it's so close to your heart.

1399
01:13:18,040 --> 01:13:18,960
Speaker 3: It's it's rough.

1400
01:13:19,000 --> 01:13:22,040
Speaker 6: So Richard Allen's appellate team has filed Richard Allen of

1401
01:13:22,320 --> 01:13:28,120
Speaker 6: is the convicted man responsible for killing Abby and Libby

1402
01:13:28,439 --> 01:13:32,800
Speaker 6: in Delphi, Indiana in twenty seventeen, and his appellate team

1403
01:13:32,880 --> 01:13:37,439
Speaker 6: have filed twelve hundred pages of previously unseen evidence in

1404
01:13:37,479 --> 01:13:41,360
Speaker 6: an effort to challenge his conviction. In the twenty seventeen

1405
01:13:41,439 --> 01:13:46,400
Speaker 6: Delphi murders, Abby Williams and Liberty German were murdered near

1406
01:13:46,600 --> 01:13:50,040
Speaker 6: a hiking trail in Delphi, Indiana, and the killer remained

1407
01:13:50,120 --> 01:13:55,280
Speaker 6: unidentified until Allen's twenty twenty two arrest, and he was convicted.

1408
01:13:54,880 --> 01:13:57,719
Speaker 3: A year ago this week.

1409
01:13:57,760 --> 01:14:02,680
Speaker 6: Actually, Alan's fence had planned to argue that practitioners of

1410
01:14:02,800 --> 01:14:07,360
Speaker 6: odinism were responsible, but the judge barred evidence pointing to

1411
01:14:07,520 --> 01:14:10,439
Speaker 6: any third party suspects during the trial because there there

1412
01:14:10,520 --> 01:14:13,920
Speaker 6: was a lack of nexus. They they didn't meet the

1413
01:14:13,960 --> 01:14:20,160
Speaker 6: bar of evidence that's required to propose this third party culpability. Well,

1414
01:14:21,800 --> 01:14:24,880
Speaker 6: now they're appealing it based on that. They're appealing it

1415
01:14:24,880 --> 01:14:27,719
Speaker 6: based on that because the FBI and a couple members

1416
01:14:27,720 --> 01:14:32,439
Speaker 6: of the Indiana State Police basically thought that initially, when

1417
01:14:32,439 --> 01:14:34,719
Speaker 6: this crime was committed, they they said that it looked

1418
01:14:34,760 --> 01:14:38,840
Speaker 6: like the bodies were moved and staged and were part

1419
01:14:38,880 --> 01:14:40,840
Speaker 6: of this odonist.

1420
01:14:41,880 --> 01:14:42,360
Speaker 3: Ritual.

1421
01:14:42,840 --> 01:14:48,240
Speaker 6: Okay, it just so happens that Abby, one of the

1422
01:14:48,320 --> 01:14:53,880
Speaker 6: victims in this case, beautiful twelve year old girl, was

1423
01:14:54,120 --> 01:14:57,679
Speaker 6: friends with this guy's son. His name is Brad Holder,

1424
01:14:58,360 --> 01:15:03,280
Speaker 6: while Brad Holder is a cell proclaimed odinist. Okay, so

1425
01:15:03,520 --> 01:15:06,400
Speaker 6: you got to follow the train here, Yeah, right, it

1426
01:15:06,439 --> 01:15:10,360
Speaker 6: looks like the bodies are staged, and the FBI and

1427
01:15:10,400 --> 01:15:12,600
Speaker 6: the Indiana States some people of the Indiana.

1428
01:15:12,280 --> 01:15:14,000
Speaker 3: State Police are like, this looks like a ritual.

1429
01:15:14,640 --> 01:15:18,800
Speaker 6: And then Abby's friends and kind of semi dating bradholder son,

1430
01:15:18,920 --> 01:15:22,320
Speaker 6: and Bradholder as a self proclaimed odinist. And by the way,

1431
01:15:22,439 --> 01:15:25,160
Speaker 6: he had a really weird photo that he posted to

1432
01:15:25,240 --> 01:15:27,960
Speaker 6: his Facebook of a drawing that looks exactly like the

1433
01:15:27,960 --> 01:15:32,559
Speaker 6: crime scene and how the girls were posed. Who so yeah,

1434
01:15:32,560 --> 01:15:36,040
Speaker 6: and this was all in the Frank's Memorandum that came

1435
01:15:36,080 --> 01:15:40,320
Speaker 6: out in like the summer of twenty twenty three, and

1436
01:15:40,360 --> 01:15:42,680
Speaker 6: they had a hearing and if you guys know what

1437
01:15:42,720 --> 01:15:46,760
Speaker 6: a Frank's hearing is it's when the defense is accusing

1438
01:15:46,880 --> 01:15:51,600
Speaker 6: the sheriff's department or authorities of lying in order to

1439
01:15:51,720 --> 01:15:55,320
Speaker 6: procure a search warrant. So then anything procured from the

1440
01:15:55,360 --> 01:15:58,000
Speaker 6: search warrant is like the fruit of the poisonous tree. Right,

1441
01:15:58,120 --> 01:16:01,840
Speaker 6: So they're basically saying the sheriff lied, and I agree

1442
01:16:01,920 --> 01:16:04,400
Speaker 6: the sheriff did lie to get the search warrant because

1443
01:16:04,479 --> 01:16:08,400
Speaker 6: they altered some of the witness statements. Wow, it's very complicated.

1444
01:16:08,439 --> 01:16:11,320
Speaker 6: This is very that's major though it is major. So

1445
01:16:11,360 --> 01:16:14,559
Speaker 6: now it a loophole or is no, it's not a major,

1446
01:16:15,160 --> 01:16:17,120
Speaker 6: it's a major thing. Well, they had they had the

1447
01:16:17,120 --> 01:16:18,960
Speaker 6: Frank's hearing. It was a three day hearing in September.

1448
01:16:19,040 --> 01:16:22,320
Speaker 6: I think it was twenty twenty three, and the judge said, no,

1449
01:16:22,439 --> 01:16:25,000
Speaker 6: you can't present this because you haven't met the threshold

1450
01:16:25,040 --> 01:16:29,520
Speaker 6: that I require this nexus to present third party culpability.

1451
01:16:30,040 --> 01:16:33,439
Speaker 6: While they're basing their appeal on that denial, the defense

1452
01:16:33,479 --> 01:16:36,439
Speaker 6: in the appellate team is saying, this should have been

1453
01:16:36,479 --> 01:16:38,479
Speaker 6: granted and we should have been able to present this

1454
01:16:38,600 --> 01:16:42,719
Speaker 6: alternative suspect theory, but it was denied wrongly.

1455
01:16:43,160 --> 01:16:45,080
Speaker 3: Basically got it, Yeah.

1456
01:16:44,840 --> 01:16:47,080
Speaker 1: And by the way, just like hearing it again, this

1457
01:16:47,200 --> 01:16:49,639
Speaker 1: is not the case that I know nearly as well

1458
01:16:49,680 --> 01:16:52,799
Speaker 1: as you do and as many well, honestly, because.

1459
01:16:52,680 --> 01:16:54,320
Speaker 3: The girls are so perfect and beautiful.

1460
01:16:54,360 --> 01:16:57,320
Speaker 1: It's actually marked for me, I think for Libyan Abbey

1461
01:16:57,400 --> 01:16:59,320
Speaker 1: and their family's hearts go out.

1462
01:16:59,400 --> 01:17:01,439
Speaker 3: It's one of the cases that I actually am.

1463
01:17:01,320 --> 01:17:04,120
Speaker 1: Like slightly allergic to because it's just I don't know

1464
01:17:04,120 --> 01:17:06,360
Speaker 1: where the line in my head is, but it's actually

1465
01:17:06,479 --> 01:17:11,360
Speaker 1: too devastating, right. But what I have seen, and I

1466
01:17:11,400 --> 01:17:14,000
Speaker 1: have the benefit of, you know, working with you every

1467
01:17:14,080 --> 01:17:17,040
Speaker 1: day and being my friend, it does seem like there's

1468
01:17:17,040 --> 01:17:19,000
Speaker 1: something there is there's something there.

1469
01:17:19,120 --> 01:17:21,360
Speaker 6: You know. There's the people on one side that think

1470
01:17:21,400 --> 01:17:24,080
Speaker 6: he's totally guilty one hundred percent, and then there's people

1471
01:17:24,360 --> 01:17:26,720
Speaker 6: on the other that think he's totally innocent. I'm on

1472
01:17:27,320 --> 01:17:29,920
Speaker 6: the innocent side, but not all the way right.

1473
01:17:29,920 --> 01:17:32,479
Speaker 1: It's so complicated, It's very complicated, and like, how do

1474
01:17:32,520 --> 01:17:35,880
Speaker 1: you put somebody away for not all the way right?

1475
01:17:35,920 --> 01:17:40,519
Speaker 1: Speaking of I mean, let's talk clumps from clemency and

1476
01:17:40,600 --> 01:17:43,080
Speaker 1: the next break because can we finish on this though,

1477
01:17:43,120 --> 01:17:45,320
Speaker 1: because I think we have a few more questions to

1478
01:17:45,360 --> 01:17:49,400
Speaker 1: get to, and then obviously this very unique case where

1479
01:17:49,640 --> 01:18:03,000
Speaker 1: somebody dipped death. Today, Welcome back to True Crime tonight

1480
01:18:03,040 --> 01:18:06,679
Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio. We're talking true crime all the time. I'm

1481
01:18:06,720 --> 01:18:10,920
Speaker 1: Stephanie Leidecker here with Courtney Armstrong. Body move in and

1482
01:18:11,160 --> 01:18:14,400
Speaker 1: we have a caller on the phone. Hi, I'm Melanie.

1483
01:18:15,160 --> 01:18:18,720
Speaker 1: We're so happy that you've called and yeah, welcome to

1484
01:18:18,760 --> 01:18:19,160
Speaker 1: the show.

1485
01:18:19,600 --> 01:18:20,080
Speaker 5: Thank you.

1486
01:18:21,080 --> 01:18:24,559
Speaker 3: Tell us everything. How are you? Yeah, what's your question

1487
01:18:24,800 --> 01:18:26,040
Speaker 3: or do you have a share?

1488
01:18:26,680 --> 01:18:31,240
Speaker 8: Well, my name is Melanie, I'm a survivor. I'm Melissa

1489
01:18:31,240 --> 01:18:36,960
Speaker 8: Stayson and this still with Epstein files and stuff. I

1490
01:18:37,000 --> 01:18:40,280
Speaker 8: don't feel like it's right for the survivors to have

1491
01:18:40,400 --> 01:18:45,679
Speaker 8: to keep telling their story over and over because each

1492
01:18:45,800 --> 01:18:49,799
Speaker 8: time that it's time that we do, it just keeps

1493
01:18:49,840 --> 01:18:51,200
Speaker 8: getting harder for us.

1494
01:18:51,520 --> 01:18:55,360
Speaker 1: And it's triggering you know what too. It's funny. We

1495
01:18:55,360 --> 01:18:59,280
Speaker 1: were talking during the break and we even asked her,

1496
01:19:00,439 --> 01:19:04,040
Speaker 1: even seeing your you know, the person who's done this

1497
01:19:04,120 --> 01:19:08,160
Speaker 1: to you his photo everywhere, that must be so triggering,

1498
01:19:08,800 --> 01:19:12,080
Speaker 1: And of course the answer is yes, but it's also

1499
01:19:12,200 --> 01:19:16,759
Speaker 1: pretty powerful because like the more you share, the more

1500
01:19:17,360 --> 01:19:19,800
Speaker 1: the more you share, and we're so grateful that you're

1501
01:19:19,840 --> 01:19:21,000
Speaker 1: sharing with us.

1502
01:19:21,360 --> 01:19:24,360
Speaker 8: Well, thank you, My heart goes up to the family

1503
01:19:24,880 --> 01:19:29,400
Speaker 8: of the one that, yeah, lost her life due to

1504
01:19:30,120 --> 01:19:30,839
Speaker 8: what happened.

1505
01:19:31,400 --> 01:19:36,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, Virginia Gouffrey, who's you know? She committed suicide in April.

1506
01:19:36,400 --> 01:19:38,800
Speaker 1: And by the way, you know, people like, well, she

1507
01:19:38,880 --> 01:19:42,160
Speaker 1: took her life. I'm like, yeah, because of a very

1508
01:19:42,240 --> 01:19:47,879
Speaker 1: long history of abuse and that's sort of the tough result.

1509
01:19:48,080 --> 01:19:51,240
Speaker 1: And again because people aren't allowed to speak of it

1510
01:19:51,320 --> 01:19:54,880
Speaker 1: because it's so hard. Even just you calling right now

1511
01:19:54,960 --> 01:19:57,800
Speaker 1: takes a lot of courage and we're so grateful for it.

1512
01:19:58,120 --> 01:19:59,760
Speaker 3: Thank you, Melanie.

1513
01:20:00,560 --> 01:20:05,240
Speaker 8: We love you, Melanie to thank you mine happening back

1514
01:20:05,280 --> 01:20:14,840
Speaker 8: when before they even registered sex offenders, living with us

1515
01:20:14,840 --> 01:20:15,400
Speaker 8: for a long time.

1516
01:20:16,479 --> 01:20:18,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, like you've been living with that for so long.

1517
01:20:20,360 --> 01:20:21,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, never get over it.

1518
01:20:22,640 --> 01:20:23,479
Speaker 3: You never get over it.

1519
01:20:23,560 --> 01:20:25,439
Speaker 1: Is there anything you can share, like just what we

1520
01:20:25,479 --> 01:20:27,599
Speaker 1: have you And if the answer is no, that's totally

1521
01:20:27,640 --> 01:20:31,720
Speaker 1: fine too. But just like knowing where you are now,

1522
01:20:31,800 --> 01:20:36,519
Speaker 1: is there something to share to other young women who

1523
01:20:36,600 --> 01:20:40,280
Speaker 1: maybe are just a little stuck in their heads about

1524
01:20:40,320 --> 01:20:43,120
Speaker 1: what to do if they've had that level of experience?

1525
01:20:44,160 --> 01:20:45,639
Speaker 1: Is there any advice to share?

1526
01:20:45,840 --> 01:20:49,799
Speaker 8: Know that it wasn't just know that it wasn't their fault.

1527
01:20:51,479 --> 01:20:55,479
Speaker 8: And to try to reach out to somebody and let

1528
01:20:55,520 --> 01:21:01,000
Speaker 8: them know that what's going on, and if it's happening

1529
01:21:01,120 --> 01:21:06,920
Speaker 8: to them, you know, go to you know, tell a place,

1530
01:21:07,680 --> 01:21:09,320
Speaker 8: counselor or somebody.

1531
01:21:11,000 --> 01:21:11,559
Speaker 3: That's right.

1532
01:21:11,680 --> 01:21:15,160
Speaker 7: I think that's great, great advice, Melanie is to tell

1533
01:21:15,280 --> 01:21:18,320
Speaker 7: someone and the secret isn't yours to keep?

1534
01:21:18,800 --> 01:21:23,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, like it exactly the perpetrator. Yeah, thank you very

1535
01:21:23,640 --> 01:21:26,439
Speaker 3: very much. Is great advice and we really appreciate it.

1536
01:21:26,479 --> 01:21:28,040
Speaker 1: And stay strong and stay brave.

1537
01:21:28,120 --> 01:21:30,519
Speaker 6: You're not alone, right, you're not alone, and you've been

1538
01:21:30,560 --> 01:21:32,680
Speaker 6: living with us for a long time, So thank you

1539
01:21:32,720 --> 01:21:33,120
Speaker 6: for the call.

1540
01:21:33,200 --> 01:21:34,920
Speaker 3: We really really really do appreciate it.

1541
01:21:35,240 --> 01:21:39,280
Speaker 1: And think about how special, even since Melanie's experience, that

1542
01:21:39,320 --> 01:21:42,960
Speaker 1: there actually is something being done, that there actually are

1543
01:21:43,240 --> 01:21:47,840
Speaker 1: predators being identified, right, that there's a you know, if

1544
01:21:48,120 --> 01:21:49,560
Speaker 1: you don't want to do this, but there is like

1545
01:21:49,600 --> 01:21:51,840
Speaker 1: a little map thing you can check for, like you know,

1546
01:21:51,920 --> 01:21:56,200
Speaker 1: sexual predators that have been registered in your area, depending

1547
01:21:56,240 --> 01:21:58,960
Speaker 1: upon where you live. You may be surprised how many

1548
01:21:59,080 --> 01:22:00,800
Speaker 1: like notification there are.

1549
01:22:01,160 --> 01:22:03,360
Speaker 3: Gosh, it is that's not the fun.

1550
01:22:03,439 --> 01:22:07,160
Speaker 1: It's not a fun look, but it's important because again,

1551
01:22:07,240 --> 01:22:09,479
Speaker 1: like at least there's some conversations about it.

1552
01:22:09,520 --> 01:22:11,000
Speaker 3: There's something actionable.

1553
01:22:11,560 --> 01:22:15,080
Speaker 1: Imagine sweet Melody Melanie when she was coming up, like

1554
01:22:15,160 --> 01:22:18,679
Speaker 1: there was nowhere, There was no list of offenders, there

1555
01:22:18,800 --> 01:22:21,920
Speaker 1: was no recourse. So I do think we're I think

1556
01:22:21,920 --> 01:22:23,720
Speaker 1: we're all scratching at it.

1557
01:22:23,840 --> 01:22:25,600
Speaker 3: I feel very hopeful.

1558
01:22:25,920 --> 01:22:28,280
Speaker 1: And I want to be really clear about this. And

1559
01:22:28,320 --> 01:22:29,640
Speaker 1: I know I live in a little bit of a

1560
01:22:29,680 --> 01:22:32,880
Speaker 1: bubble happiness wise, but it's not true.

1561
01:22:33,479 --> 01:22:34,160
Speaker 3: It's a choice.

1562
01:22:34,200 --> 01:22:36,639
Speaker 1: I choose to try to really like see the happy

1563
01:22:36,680 --> 01:22:40,120
Speaker 1: in it all things. I believe in my heart of

1564
01:22:40,160 --> 01:22:43,760
Speaker 1: hearts that there is a most hopeful day is upon

1565
01:22:43,840 --> 01:22:48,240
Speaker 1: us where people are going to be more together than

1566
01:22:48,280 --> 01:22:51,120
Speaker 1: ever before, and transparency will be the name of the

1567
01:22:51,160 --> 01:22:56,639
Speaker 1: game period. I think we're like here now. It's not

1568
01:22:56,720 --> 01:22:59,280
Speaker 1: like in a million years. It's not two years from now,

1569
01:22:59,720 --> 01:23:03,120
Speaker 1: not I two k like tomorrow. Is it a possibility

1570
01:23:03,160 --> 01:23:03,360
Speaker 1: for that?

1571
01:23:04,640 --> 01:23:07,639
Speaker 3: It's very hopeful. I hope, So I hope.

1572
01:23:07,680 --> 01:23:11,800
Speaker 1: So, Okay, should we.

1573
01:23:11,760 --> 01:23:18,080
Speaker 7: Sing No, No, nobody needs that, but what we should acknowledge? Yeah,

1574
01:23:18,160 --> 01:23:20,519
Speaker 7: I'll speak for myself. Nobody needs to hear me. Nobody

1575
01:23:20,720 --> 01:23:26,320
Speaker 7: think that's a crime in and of itself. But today

1576
01:23:26,400 --> 01:23:29,919
Speaker 7: is actually a special day on a lot of different levels.

1577
01:23:31,439 --> 01:23:36,120
Speaker 7: So it has been it has been three years today

1578
01:23:37,800 --> 01:23:43,600
Speaker 7: since the tragedy in Idaho happened, and Kayla Gonsolvas and

1579
01:23:43,720 --> 01:23:54,559
Speaker 7: Madison Mogan, Ethan Shapen and Xana Kernodle right, three years wow.

1580
01:23:55,120 --> 01:23:57,519
Speaker 7: And I know you both have thoughts about that.

1581
01:23:57,600 --> 01:23:59,280
Speaker 3: But the other.

1582
01:24:00,800 --> 01:24:05,040
Speaker 7: Side of that heavy coin is it also is National

1583
01:24:05,200 --> 01:24:11,720
Speaker 7: Kindness Day, Oh yeah, which actually ties in somewhat to

1584
01:24:12,160 --> 01:24:14,360
Speaker 7: Maddie may Day, which I think body you wanted to.

1585
01:24:14,920 --> 01:24:18,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, we had our call earlier and about

1586
01:24:18,120 --> 01:24:20,200
Speaker 6: what we're going to talk about tonight, and you had

1587
01:24:20,240 --> 01:24:22,280
Speaker 6: mentioned that it's National Kindness Day, and I was like,

1588
01:24:22,280 --> 01:24:26,720
Speaker 6: oh my gosh, well that's really interesting because you know,

1589
01:24:26,840 --> 01:24:29,559
Speaker 6: each of the victims kind of has their own special day,

1590
01:24:30,320 --> 01:24:33,519
Speaker 6: and so instead of you know, talking about you know,

1591
01:24:33,760 --> 01:24:36,720
Speaker 6: the murder in this on this day, we thought it

1592
01:24:36,760 --> 01:24:39,120
Speaker 6: would be a good idea to talk about them and

1593
01:24:39,160 --> 01:24:42,559
Speaker 6: their special day since it is National Kindness Day. So

1594
01:24:42,600 --> 01:24:47,080
Speaker 6: it has been three years since Idaho and on every

1595
01:24:47,360 --> 01:24:52,080
Speaker 6: May twenty fifth, it's Mattie may Day. And what Mattie

1596
01:24:52,120 --> 01:24:55,559
Speaker 6: may Day is is random acts of kindness. And what

1597
01:24:55,600 --> 01:24:58,479
Speaker 6: I have done on Mattie may Day is I'll pay

1598
01:24:58,520 --> 01:25:00,680
Speaker 6: for the coffee of.

1599
01:25:00,720 --> 01:25:02,200
Speaker 3: Somebody behind me in the morning.

1600
01:25:03,120 --> 01:25:03,320
Speaker 1: Work.

1601
01:25:03,640 --> 01:25:06,760
Speaker 3: So that's what I do and it always works. That's

1602
01:25:06,760 --> 01:25:08,640
Speaker 3: such a suggestion.

1603
01:25:09,160 --> 01:25:11,960
Speaker 6: It's an easy thing to do, you know, and it

1604
01:25:12,200 --> 01:25:15,519
Speaker 6: just pays respect because Maddie was just such a kind soul.

1605
01:25:15,640 --> 01:25:18,080
Speaker 6: But everyone that knew her so that she was just

1606
01:25:18,120 --> 01:25:19,960
Speaker 6: such a kind soul. That is so that is May

1607
01:25:20,000 --> 01:25:26,160
Speaker 6: twenty fifth, Okay, June eighth is Kayleie Jade Day. And

1608
01:25:26,320 --> 01:25:29,840
Speaker 6: what the Gonsalva's family is asking is that you do

1609
01:25:30,000 --> 01:25:34,720
Speaker 6: more of what you love, whether it's eating spaghetti.

1610
01:25:34,439 --> 01:25:39,360
Speaker 3: Or having them yeah ice scream. If you like to

1611
01:25:39,360 --> 01:25:42,800
Speaker 3: play soccer, go play soccer, Go do things, go watch

1612
01:25:42,840 --> 01:25:46,519
Speaker 3: the sunrise right, things that you love, do them more.

1613
01:25:47,360 --> 01:25:50,840
Speaker 6: And Xana Carnodle Day, it's also known by this is

1614
01:25:50,880 --> 01:25:53,760
Speaker 6: like one of my favorite things. Xana Carnodle Day is

1615
01:25:53,840 --> 01:25:57,840
Speaker 6: also known as Xanna Palooza. I love that Xanna pala

1616
01:25:58,479 --> 01:26:02,680
Speaker 6: That is July fifth, and her family encourages people to

1617
01:26:02,800 --> 01:26:06,240
Speaker 6: celebrate by being silly and goofy and getting out of

1618
01:26:06,280 --> 01:26:10,160
Speaker 6: your comfort zone, push your boundaries and making more memories,

1619
01:26:10,280 --> 01:26:12,439
Speaker 6: just as Xanna did. And I every time I see

1620
01:26:12,439 --> 01:26:15,080
Speaker 6: a video of Xanna, she's just being silly and goofy

1621
01:26:15,200 --> 01:26:19,200
Speaker 6: and just having fun. And that's how her family wants

1622
01:26:19,200 --> 01:26:22,040
Speaker 6: you to remember her. So when you celebrate Xana's Day

1623
01:26:22,400 --> 01:26:25,840
Speaker 6: Sanna Palooza on July fifth, make a silly video, send

1624
01:26:25,840 --> 01:26:28,639
Speaker 6: it to your family, post it to TikTok, just you know,

1625
01:26:28,880 --> 01:26:30,360
Speaker 6: make a fool of yourself, but have fun.

1626
01:26:30,400 --> 01:26:33,240
Speaker 1: We'll celebrate these days too specific I think we should.

1627
01:26:33,840 --> 01:26:37,040
Speaker 1: We should add them to our personal calendars, but also

1628
01:26:37,040 --> 01:26:38,960
Speaker 1: to this calendar is yeah, let's do that.

1629
01:26:39,040 --> 01:26:39,599
Speaker 3: Let's do that.

1630
01:26:39,920 --> 01:26:42,840
Speaker 6: And then Ethan Chaffin he doesn't have like a day

1631
01:26:42,880 --> 01:26:44,240
Speaker 6: specifically that I know of.

1632
01:26:45,520 --> 01:26:46,560
Speaker 3: He is a triplet.

1633
01:26:47,320 --> 01:26:51,400
Speaker 6: And so what their family has done, the Chapin family

1634
01:26:51,479 --> 01:26:57,680
Speaker 6: is they've created this amazing foundation it's called ethan Ethan Smile, and.

1635
01:26:58,920 --> 01:27:01,960
Speaker 3: They raise money and send kids to school.

1636
01:27:02,320 --> 01:27:05,599
Speaker 6: They've already sent they've already sent a bunch of kids

1637
01:27:05,600 --> 01:27:09,639
Speaker 6: to college amazing through scholarships and whatnot. So you can

1638
01:27:09,640 --> 01:27:13,080
Speaker 6: look that up. It's the ethan Ethan Smile. And they

1639
01:27:13,120 --> 01:27:14,920
Speaker 6: also sell tulips and candles.

1640
01:27:14,960 --> 01:27:15,679
Speaker 5: And I just.

1641
01:27:15,640 --> 01:27:20,280
Speaker 1: Someone in front of me, literally, my girlfriends came to

1642
01:27:20,360 --> 01:27:24,080
Speaker 1: visit with some friends this weekend and they gifted me

1643
01:27:24,160 --> 01:27:27,120
Speaker 1: this candle, which was from Ethan Chapin's Foundation.

1644
01:27:27,880 --> 01:27:30,360
Speaker 3: It's this beautiful, beautiful candle.

1645
01:27:30,840 --> 01:27:33,320
Speaker 1: By the way, I don't know if there's only this color,

1646
01:27:33,520 --> 01:27:36,000
Speaker 1: but they chose this color because it has the colors

1647
01:27:36,000 --> 01:27:36,519
Speaker 1: of sprite.

1648
01:27:36,960 --> 01:27:39,680
Speaker 3: It's like this beautiful green in it. Why they did that?

1649
01:27:40,280 --> 01:27:43,879
Speaker 1: And like, I have a little beautiful white votive candle

1650
01:27:43,960 --> 01:27:47,200
Speaker 1: in it, and I'm going to light it every night

1651
01:27:47,360 --> 01:27:52,360
Speaker 1: with the show. And you know, we're always thinking of them,

1652
01:27:52,720 --> 01:27:55,800
Speaker 1: and their memories are not lost and in such a

1653
01:27:55,800 --> 01:27:59,599
Speaker 1: big way, like globally, these are angels that are looking

1654
01:27:59,640 --> 01:28:03,840
Speaker 1: upon all of us. And yeah, and that actually you

1655
01:28:03,840 --> 01:28:05,840
Speaker 1: asked if that was the only color I'm looking because

1656
01:28:05,880 --> 01:28:08,800
Speaker 1: it's so exquisite. I wanted to and I love the

1657
01:28:08,960 --> 01:28:12,840
Speaker 1: d Yeah, exactly. So that candle is called hunter Bear

1658
01:28:14,160 --> 01:28:17,080
Speaker 1: and it completes the triplet sets. So there indeed are

1659
01:28:17,120 --> 01:28:21,400
Speaker 1: three options. There is a pink one called Maizie's Pugga,

1660
01:28:22,040 --> 01:28:24,120
Speaker 1: and the gift for the holidays is a.

1661
01:28:24,040 --> 01:28:29,400
Speaker 3: Blue one called Ethan's Smile. By way, that's a boy beautiful.

1662
01:28:30,000 --> 01:28:32,200
Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you, I'm literally have it in

1663
01:28:32,200 --> 01:28:36,200
Speaker 1: my hand. You guys are looking at it. It's so beautiful,

1664
01:28:36,400 --> 01:28:39,240
Speaker 1: it's like a it's This was a tremendous, beautiful gift.

1665
01:28:39,920 --> 01:28:42,800
Speaker 1: What a great gift to give somebody for the holidays.

1666
01:28:43,120 --> 01:28:46,880
Speaker 1: That and again we're not promoting anything, but yeah, I mean.

1667
01:28:46,760 --> 01:28:50,120
Speaker 6: All it helps send kids to school, and it helps

1668
01:28:49,360 --> 01:28:53,240
Speaker 6: send you can't go wrong, and it's a really substantial,

1669
01:28:53,280 --> 01:28:55,000
Speaker 6: gorgeous candle and.

1670
01:28:56,400 --> 01:28:58,240
Speaker 1: That like rips my heart open. And by the way,

1671
01:28:58,280 --> 01:29:01,599
Speaker 1: just the fact that Ethan as a triplet. Triplets are

1672
01:29:01,680 --> 01:29:05,200
Speaker 1: so unusually interesting to all of us, right, like who

1673
01:29:05,240 --> 01:29:09,160
Speaker 1: doesn't want to be a twin two boys and a girl,

1674
01:29:09,240 --> 01:29:12,519
Speaker 1: Like it sounds perfect until your heart is ripped in

1675
01:29:12,600 --> 01:29:15,000
Speaker 1: pieces because one of the three of you is missing.

1676
01:29:15,120 --> 01:29:19,400
Speaker 1: So again, to the siblings, it's just a very unique

1677
01:29:19,439 --> 01:29:22,639
Speaker 1: piece of Ethan's story and for his sister and brother

1678
01:29:22,800 --> 01:29:27,000
Speaker 1: to continue on continue his legacy as major and of

1679
01:29:27,040 --> 01:29:31,320
Speaker 1: course for the Gonzalvez family and their Canodle family and

1680
01:29:31,880 --> 01:29:33,200
Speaker 1: Madison Mogan's family.

1681
01:29:33,720 --> 01:29:36,280
Speaker 3: We love you, yeah, and.

1682
01:29:36,240 --> 01:29:40,280
Speaker 1: We are not alone in that. We all aere crazy in.

1683
01:29:40,120 --> 01:29:43,080
Speaker 3: Love with you and send you so much love. Yeah.

1684
01:29:43,200 --> 01:29:44,240
Speaker 3: I thought about them all day.

1685
01:29:44,680 --> 01:29:49,280
Speaker 6: Yeah, my social media has been bombarded with videos of

1686
01:29:49,720 --> 01:29:53,400
Speaker 6: there's so many people making like memory videos of the

1687
01:29:53,439 --> 01:29:56,280
Speaker 6: four of them, and in every single one.

1688
01:29:56,320 --> 01:30:02,080
Speaker 3: They're all dancing and smiling and you know, just it's

1689
01:30:02,120 --> 01:30:03,679
Speaker 3: their life to worth living.

1690
01:30:04,120 --> 01:30:06,639
Speaker 1: It's funny, as you say, social media, and I guess

1691
01:30:06,680 --> 01:30:10,280
Speaker 1: the one takeaway from that case and having just obviously

1692
01:30:10,280 --> 01:30:13,960
Speaker 1: the podcast is now final episode out now please check

1693
01:30:14,000 --> 01:30:18,320
Speaker 1: it out and some silver linings in a very you know, dark,

1694
01:30:18,680 --> 01:30:19,599
Speaker 1: difficult tale.

1695
01:30:20,000 --> 01:30:22,200
Speaker 3: And then we made a documentary on Peacock.

1696
01:30:23,160 --> 01:30:26,679
Speaker 1: I really have suffered from being on social media that

1697
01:30:27,600 --> 01:30:31,880
Speaker 1: their case has pretty much made me absent on social media.

1698
01:30:36,160 --> 01:30:39,280
Speaker 1: I guess, I guess being in the trenches in it.

1699
01:30:39,360 --> 01:30:43,639
Speaker 1: My fear was that because they were so alive and

1700
01:30:43,760 --> 01:30:47,400
Speaker 1: happy and living their lives so fully and fun, and

1701
01:30:47,439 --> 01:30:51,000
Speaker 1: you would see the interior of their houses and it

1702
01:30:51,120 --> 01:30:55,559
Speaker 1: almost allowed a level of access to you know, you think,

1703
01:30:55,680 --> 01:30:59,200
Speaker 1: just your buds, but it allowed a level of access

1704
01:30:59,360 --> 01:31:03,639
Speaker 1: that was dangerous that somebody who wanted to do harm,

1705
01:31:04,040 --> 01:31:08,120
Speaker 1: or had envy, or wanted something different for their ending

1706
01:31:08,280 --> 01:31:11,000
Speaker 1: of their lives had more access to them. I thought

1707
01:31:11,040 --> 01:31:12,760
Speaker 1: they knew them, maybe a little bit better than they

1708
01:31:12,880 --> 01:31:13,840
Speaker 1: actually did.

1709
01:31:14,080 --> 01:31:15,120
Speaker 3: That's a really good point.

1710
01:31:15,439 --> 01:31:18,080
Speaker 1: And it became again, this is not anything that they

1711
01:31:18,120 --> 01:31:21,559
Speaker 1: did wrong in any way. She form God knows, but

1712
01:31:21,600 --> 01:31:24,400
Speaker 1: I think I also probably did that. Who doesn't, like

1713
01:31:24,520 --> 01:31:26,120
Speaker 1: we were like, oh, this is a happy moment or

1714
01:31:26,160 --> 01:31:27,639
Speaker 1: a goofy moment or a silly moment.

1715
01:31:28,000 --> 01:31:30,160
Speaker 3: I don't think social media needs to be curated.

1716
01:31:30,200 --> 01:31:32,200
Speaker 1: I think it just needs to be honest in the moment.

1717
01:31:32,360 --> 01:31:35,680
Speaker 1: So sometimes it's like the weird day. But you're like

1718
01:31:35,720 --> 01:31:38,679
Speaker 1: taking a photo in your in your house and there's

1719
01:31:38,760 --> 01:31:41,200
Speaker 1: the entrance in, there is the exit, and that's the

1720
01:31:41,240 --> 01:31:46,080
Speaker 1: window there. Yeah, step up and just working on the

1721
01:31:46,160 --> 01:31:50,479
Speaker 1: documentary especially, it sort of it kind of got me scared. Yeah,

1722
01:31:51,160 --> 01:31:53,040
Speaker 1: and I was like, I love social media, by the way.

1723
01:31:53,080 --> 01:31:56,160
Speaker 1: I get a kick out of seeing everybody's photos and

1724
01:31:56,200 --> 01:31:59,800
Speaker 1: their babies and their weddings and their engagements and their graduations.

1725
01:32:00,080 --> 01:32:00,400
Speaker 3: I get it.

1726
01:32:00,600 --> 01:32:03,080
Speaker 1: I get a high five out of it big time.

1727
01:32:03,720 --> 01:32:05,600
Speaker 1: But it did sort of take the fun out of

1728
01:32:05,640 --> 01:32:07,600
Speaker 1: it for me, Like now I'm sort of like, not

1729
01:32:07,680 --> 01:32:10,120
Speaker 1: that anyone's looking at my windows and doors. I'm not

1730
01:32:10,120 --> 01:32:14,240
Speaker 1: suggesting that, nor am I particularly that interesting any way,

1731
01:32:14,200 --> 01:32:15,720
Speaker 1: Yes you are, but it just put me like a

1732
01:32:16,120 --> 01:32:18,040
Speaker 1: It just made me stop. It just made me like,

1733
01:32:19,120 --> 01:32:21,960
Speaker 1: I'm like, I never post anything anymore.

1734
01:32:24,080 --> 01:32:27,200
Speaker 3: Wow, how unavy? I should maybe I should start doing it. No, no,

1735
01:32:27,360 --> 01:32:29,040
Speaker 3: or I should lighten up. I don't know one of

1736
01:32:29,040 --> 01:32:29,320
Speaker 3: the two.

1737
01:32:29,840 --> 01:32:31,640
Speaker 1: Maybe what you meet in the middle. How don't we

1738
01:32:31,720 --> 01:32:33,360
Speaker 1: only post with outdoors and windows.

1739
01:32:33,400 --> 01:32:37,479
Speaker 6: I'm constantly oversharing, But like license plates, I don't know.

1740
01:32:37,520 --> 01:32:38,559
Speaker 3: I just didn't know.

1741
01:32:38,680 --> 01:32:42,280
Speaker 1: I just started seeing the world differently. Differently, yeah, and

1742
01:32:42,320 --> 01:32:43,760
Speaker 1: which is a bad thing. It's not the way you

1743
01:32:43,760 --> 01:32:44,280
Speaker 1: should live.

1744
01:32:45,160 --> 01:32:45,439
Speaker 7: Well.

1745
01:32:45,520 --> 01:32:47,920
Speaker 3: But there's a lot of bad people, but there's more good.

1746
01:32:48,000 --> 01:32:51,920
Speaker 1: There's way more good. I think the bad or isolated.

1747
01:32:52,240 --> 01:32:55,519
Speaker 1: And again, in the spirit of hopefulness, I think there

1748
01:32:55,600 --> 01:33:00,200
Speaker 1: is so much more good than these clowns that are bad.

1749
01:32:59,720 --> 01:33:03,479
Speaker 1: And I don't know. Post your little hearts out. Go ahead,

1750
01:33:03,520 --> 01:33:07,840
Speaker 1: share those smiling faces. Let this Thursday night rip with happiness,

1751
01:33:08,040 --> 01:33:10,680
Speaker 1: and if you're having a great one, to share it

1752
01:33:10,720 --> 01:33:11,360
Speaker 1: with all of us.

1753
01:33:11,400 --> 01:33:11,840
Speaker 3: Please do.

1754
01:33:12,880 --> 01:33:14,759
Speaker 1: By the way, we're not here tomorrow, but we are

1755
01:33:14,800 --> 01:33:18,360
Speaker 1: back on Sunday. Joseph Scott Morgan here for a crime

1756
01:33:18,479 --> 01:33:22,719
Speaker 1: lab Courtney Armstrong, body moving. I love you to pieces

1757
01:33:22,840 --> 01:33:27,000
Speaker 1: and everybody, stay safe, have a great night.