Speaker 1: Welcome back to She Pivots. I'm your host, Emily Tish Sussman.
Speaker 1: This week, we're doing things a little differently. It's spring
Speaker 1: break for many of us parents, so as I'm currently
Speaker 1: juggling entertaining three children, I wanted to share my episode
Speaker 1: on a hype Woman, a podcast hosted by the magnificent
Speaker 1: original hype Woman Aaron Gallagher. I'm dropping in the full
Speaker 1: episode here, but you can also listen to it over
Speaker 1: on her Hype Woman podcast feed, where you can listen
Speaker 1: to more inspiring women like White House Press Secretary Karine
Speaker 1: John Pierre and of course she Pivots Daves Daisy London.
Speaker 1: In full transparency, I'm both a little excited and a
Speaker 1: little nervous to share this episode. I've become so comfortable
Speaker 1: on the other side of the aisle as the interviewer,
Speaker 1: it feels vulnerable to share me as the guest. But
Speaker 1: I hope you truly enjoyed this episode as much as
Speaker 1: I enjoyed doing it. Aarin has an amazing ability to
Speaker 1: allow her guests to speak honestly and truly hypes them up.
Speaker 1: Be sure to follow Aaron at we Underscore Hype Women
Speaker 1: on Instagram and check out her prolific LinkedIn enjoy. I
Speaker 1: think that one of the real framing mindsets for me
Speaker 1: and why I go so hard into everything that I do,
Speaker 1: It's because I do still always feel like I have
Speaker 1: to prove myself. I feel like I had to prove
Speaker 1: myself for a long time. I come from a very
Speaker 1: prominent New York family, and so people had a lot
Speaker 1: of presumptions about me. Now, I think we'd call it
Speaker 1: nepo babies, but they presumed that I didn't earn what
Speaker 1: I achieved, and for a long time, I didn't feel
Speaker 1: like I deserved most of it. That you know, I
Speaker 1: had a hard time in school. I had very little
Speaker 1: impulse control in talking in particular what was a big surprise,
Speaker 1: But so I didn't do that well, Like I didn't
Speaker 1: fit in, and so therefore I felt like I wasn't
Speaker 1: living up to the expectations of my family. I wasn't
Speaker 1: living up to the expectations of the city around me
Speaker 1: and everyone I came in contact with, and so I
Speaker 1: was really rebellious because if I couldn't fit in, then
Speaker 1: I had to rebel against it.
Speaker 2: Well, well, well, here we are episode number Lucky thirteen,
Speaker 2: and this one My Friends is a real gem. I
Speaker 2: always listen to our episodes three or more times before
Speaker 2: I write the intros, and on this one, I was
Speaker 2: cackling out loud each and every time I listened. There
Speaker 2: is no one like Emily Tish Sussman, no one. She
Speaker 2: is brilliant in all the ways street smart, book smart, style, smart,
Speaker 2: whip smart. Every time I'm in her presence, I learn
Speaker 2: more about the world and about myself, and I hope
Speaker 2: you experience the same as you listen to this conversation today.
Speaker 2: Emm and I talk a lot about her journey navigating
Speaker 2: her identity as a woman, as a political commentator, as
Speaker 2: a lawyer, as a mother of three, as a podcast host,
Speaker 2: a media mogul, an owner of professional women's soccer team,
Speaker 2: the New York New Jersey Gotham FC, as a member
Speaker 2: of a prominent New York family have you heard of
Speaker 2: the New York Giants. Emma has been underestimated at different
Speaker 2: points throughout her life, and her response to this she
Speaker 2: committed herself to being serious and taken seriously. So I
Speaker 2: want to talk about the definition of serious. It's defined
Speaker 2: in multiple ways. First, it's demanding careful consideration or application next,
Speaker 2: acting or speaking sincerely and in earnest rather than in
Speaker 2: a joking or half hearted manner, Significant or worrying because
Speaker 2: of possible danger or risk. And lastly, substantial in terms
Speaker 2: of size, number, and quality.
Speaker 3: But when you think about how.
Speaker 2: So many of us shapeshift to fit inside of a serious.
Speaker 3: Box, it's limiting.
Speaker 2: And for em that box could not contain her light.
Speaker 2: So as she made herself smaller, more serious, and took
Speaker 2: away the beauty that is who Emma is, she began
Speaker 2: to lose herself. And it got me thinking, are being
Speaker 2: serious and being taken seriously the same thing?
Speaker 3: Let's find out. I mean, it's gonna be It's gonna
Speaker 3: be one for the books today, Isn't that right? Isn't
Speaker 3: that right? Miss Emily Tish Susman.
Speaker 1: I can I feel like I have no idea where
Speaker 1: this is going to go, but it's we're going to
Speaker 1: make magic, that is.
Speaker 4: I think that's kind of the story of our friendship
Speaker 4: is we don't know what's going to happen. Neither one
Speaker 4: of us have the gene of embarrassment or overthinking behavior
Speaker 4: before doing it, and so it is always entertaining. Sometimes
Speaker 4: a cleanup that needs to happen. But like, but if
Speaker 4: nothing else, the most authentic and vulnerable.
Speaker 1: Right, one hundred percent. Like I feel like it didn't
Speaker 1: necessarily serve me that well early in life, but now
Speaker 1: I'm thriving.
Speaker 4: I mean, and I think that's this is the journey
Speaker 4: that we really want to we want to uncover and
Speaker 4: sort of go on with you today. And I'm just
Speaker 4: I'm deeply grateful that we're here together. And as em
Speaker 4: and I just said before we started, we wanted to
Speaker 4: just get going because we would probably shoot the shit
Speaker 4: for too long and we would maybe miss some of
Speaker 4: what the hilarity that will ensue over the course of
Speaker 4: this conversation.
Speaker 1: Like we could literally never stop talking between the two
Speaker 1: of us week, we could.
Speaker 3: Luckily never stop talking, right. And you know, we have
Speaker 3: this really.
Speaker 4: Interesting background that we didn't know was in common until
Speaker 4: we were on a panel together for International Women's Day
Speaker 4: last year, where afterwards you came up to me and said,
Speaker 4: you know, my team pulled together the bios of the
Speaker 4: other panelists just so I could have a little bit
Speaker 4: of framework of what they were all about. And I
Speaker 4: thought they had incorrectly copied my bio into yours.
Speaker 3: And the reason for that is one.
Speaker 1: And I was like, I was like, pull it together, ladies, sloppy,
Speaker 1: you put my bio in for the game. Clappy, sloppy ladies.
Speaker 4: Because never ever have I ever come across another person
Speaker 4: without it being at an event or at our former
Speaker 4: workplace that has also worked at SLDN. And for anyone
Speaker 4: who doesn't know what SLDN is, it is Service Members
Speaker 4: Legal Defense Network. Entire mission was to lift the ban
Speaker 4: on gays in the military, which we ultimately did, and
Speaker 4: EM and I were both there at different times but
Speaker 4: truly formative years of our career.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, I mean it was my first job after
Speaker 1: law school. It was my first job after the Obama campaign.
Speaker 1: It was my first job in Washington working in policy advocacy.
Speaker 1: And I knew at the time like I'd never have
Speaker 1: a better job, and I still feel that way that,
Speaker 1: like I'll never have a better job, like to be able.
Speaker 1: Rarely can you be both the direct services, like the
Speaker 1: actual attorneys of people who are impacted, and also be
Speaker 1: working on policy change, like it often doesn't happen in
Speaker 1: the same organization, just the way that organizations are set up.
Speaker 1: And we really did it there, like we were so
Speaker 1: close to the service members who were discharged, and we
Speaker 1: really made impact in the law. So I like for
Speaker 1: that reason, like I could have never had a better
Speaker 1: job and never had a better experience.
Speaker 3: It is so true.
Speaker 4: Is it is such a small, scrappy organization that did
Speaker 4: it all. And you know, you came in past law school.
Speaker 4: And so we're serving as legal aid for service members
Speaker 4: who are either currently still inside of the military and
Speaker 4: were seeking counsel because they were worried about their safety,
Speaker 4: they were worried about their career, or they had already.
Speaker 3: Exited and they needed to get some counsel on what was.
Speaker 4: Best, the best way forward. I this was my first
Speaker 4: job after college. I thought I wanted to be a lawyer,
Speaker 4: and all of my friends there were a year ahead
Speaker 4: said work at a law firm for at least a
Speaker 4: year instead of going straight to law school.
Speaker 3: So I was so lucky to land this gig.
Speaker 4: A connection because my mom was in the Coast Guard
Speaker 4: for twenty five years and so we had a connection
Speaker 4: to a board member who was there, and.
Speaker 3: They gave me a shot.
Speaker 4: I was the intake person, so I was the first
Speaker 4: sort of line of receiving the call from the service
Speaker 4: member and getting an understanding of what was happening for them,
Speaker 4: and then I passed them off to your brilliance and
Speaker 4: the brilliance of other lawyers there who could really help
Speaker 4: them navigate the system.
Speaker 3: But you're right, it's.
Speaker 4: Never like I have up on my wall like the
Speaker 4: sort of going away note that they gave me and
Speaker 4: like never never a better job. So I just I
Speaker 4: love that we have that in common.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was so scrappy. I feel like I didn't
Speaker 1: know that that organizations and offices could actually be that scrappy.
Speaker 1: And like all of our furniture had been donated, so
Speaker 1: I don't. Do you remember the conference room? This was
Speaker 1: my favorite thing that the conference The table in the
Speaker 1: conference room was as big that we said like one
Speaker 1: hundred times a day it had been sawed in half
Speaker 1: to get through the door. Yes, and so it was
Speaker 1: just like an open conference table with like a big
Speaker 1: saw in the middle and like from the bottom, yes.
Speaker 4: Right, and it's like and and it was so big
Speaker 4: that you almost like had to slide in to just
Speaker 4: get into the room. Because again, this wasn't this isn't
Speaker 4: like in a space where a designer comes in and
Speaker 4: goes okay, what's the ideal you know, size table for
Speaker 4: this room. It's like, no, no, here's the table and
Speaker 4: the room and they both have to work. And so
Speaker 4: if it means cutting it off in the middle, we
Speaker 4: do it. That is what it is to be an entrepreneur.
Speaker 4: It is what it is to be sort of scrappy
Speaker 4: and to have a mission that you don't let anything
Speaker 4: get in the way of. Yeah, so what I would
Speaker 4: love to do to start off is to read.
Speaker 3: Your Hype Women headline.
Speaker 4: And this is my attempt to synopsize in two sentences,
Speaker 4: which is really difficult because of the impact that you've
Speaker 4: had over the course of your career in life, who
Speaker 4: you are, what you're about, what the world knows you as,
Speaker 4: and what I want you to do, because I think
Speaker 4: it's really difficult when you are a person like you are,
Speaker 4: who is involved in so much, who cares so deeply,
Speaker 4: who is ambitious, You're constantly moving, You're constantly onto the
Speaker 4: next thing. I want you to really use the thirty
Speaker 4: seconds of me reading this to hear what you've done,
Speaker 4: to take it in, and then we're going to talk
Speaker 4: about the subtext.
Speaker 3: Okay, okay, all right, here we go.
Speaker 4: Emily Tish Susman is a purple haired unicorn, the creator
Speaker 4: and host of the award winning podcast She Pivots. A
Speaker 4: Tony nominated producer, a Marie Claire contributor, a Democratic political strategist,
Speaker 4: member of the New York Bar and co owner of
Speaker 4: Gotham FC, the twenty twenty three National Women's Soccer League champions.
Speaker 4: End of Sentence one, Sentence two. A mother of three,
Speaker 4: and former VP of Campaigns at the largest Democratic think
Speaker 4: tank in Washington, d C. Emily has produced Broadway hits,
Speaker 4: including Shucked and How To Dance in Ohio. Is a
Speaker 4: founding member of her local Mom's Demand Action Chapter. Has
Speaker 4: served on the board of the Ethical Culture Fieldstone School
Speaker 4: and the Raw School. Is a member of the Artist
Speaker 4: Council at the Whitney Museum of American Art.
Speaker 3: And the Director Circle at the Church.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: If I looked at this, I would have been like,
Speaker 4: why'd you put six people's bios into one?
Speaker 3: And is like, no, no, no, that's all accurate. M
Speaker 3: What is happening here? What's happening here?
Speaker 1: Yeah, when you read all like that, it does feel
Speaker 1: overwhelming a little, Yeah, it does feel overwhelming, but yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I think it's because I kind of go
Speaker 1: all in when I do something, like it's just I
Speaker 1: drink a lot of coffee, that is for sure, yep.
Speaker 1: But you know, when I do something, I go really
Speaker 1: really hard on it, and I feel like I can't
Speaker 1: do it halfway. So if we're going to do it
Speaker 1: like we're fucking doing it, We're fucking doing it. Yeah.
Speaker 4: It is such an interesting mix though, right that your interests,
Speaker 4: your skill set.
Speaker 3: Your true brilliance.
Speaker 4: It really spans very different sectors that most people would
Speaker 4: pick a lane and kind of stay in that one,
Speaker 4: whereas I, like I wrote down, I was like, maybe
Speaker 4: this is your memoir women.
Speaker 3: Aren't politics and purple hair?
Speaker 4: You know, because like, and the reason I'm talking about
Speaker 4: the purple hair is because you want do.
Speaker 1: You want to know what my Real Housewives tagline would be?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I do? Wait wait is it? Oh okay, I might
Speaker 1: be left, but I'm always right.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, so good.
Speaker 1: That'll be my replacement.
Speaker 3: Now okay, that's good.
Speaker 4: And also I will make that sure and have it
Speaker 4: up by the end of day, so incredible. We can
Speaker 4: make sure, we can make sure that that is in
Speaker 4: the hands of people. No, that's that is that is
Speaker 4: so good and so right that but again, when you
Speaker 4: think about those categories, right, politics, women aren't just true
Speaker 4: media you are, You're crossing all of them and you're
Speaker 4: but you also continue to participate in them. How do
Speaker 4: you show up as m in each of those spaces
Speaker 4: that many times have a very specific way that they
Speaker 4: expect people to be.
Speaker 1: That's a I really like the way that you. I
Speaker 1: think it's a really good question. That's a really good question,
Speaker 1: and I think that it's been like a big evolution
Speaker 1: for me. I think that one of the real framing
Speaker 1: mindsets for me and why I go so hard into
Speaker 1: everything that I do, it's because I do still always
Speaker 1: feel like I have to prove myself. I feel like
Speaker 1: I had to prove myself for a long time. Come
Speaker 1: from a very prominent New York family, and so people
Speaker 1: had a lot of presumptions about me. Now, I think
Speaker 1: we'd call it nepo babies, but they presumed that I
Speaker 1: didn't earn what I achieved, and for a long time
Speaker 1: I didn't feel like I deserved most of it. That
Speaker 1: you know, I had a hard time in school. I
Speaker 1: had very little impulse control in talking. In particular, what
Speaker 1: was a big surprise. But so I didn't do that well,
Speaker 1: Like I didn't fit in, and so therefore I felt
Speaker 1: like I wasn't living up to the expectations of my family,
Speaker 1: I wasn't living up to the expectations of the city
Speaker 1: around me and everyone I came in contact with, and
Speaker 1: so I was really rebellious because if I couldn't fit in,
Speaker 1: then I had to rebel against it. And then that
Speaker 1: kind of got flipped when I worked on a political
Speaker 1: campaign right after college and I thought, oh my god,
Speaker 1: I'm really good at this. This is the first time
Speaker 1: ever in my life I've believed that I was good
Speaker 1: at anything, and I had to really prove every minute
Speaker 1: of every day that I earned the right to be there,
Speaker 1: earned the right to be in my position. And that
Speaker 1: led me to law school right after. Like I had
Speaker 1: my college advisor. My college degree was in social work,
Speaker 1: and my college advisor pulled me aside senior year and
Speaker 1: I said, you know, I was meeting with her and
Speaker 1: I said, you know, I'm thinking about going to law
Speaker 1: school and she said, well, that's really for the smart
Speaker 1: people like this girl, lindsay, like, you're really never going
Speaker 1: to amount to anything. You're always going to have to
Speaker 1: buy your way in and she she hit me where
Speaker 1: it hurt like she hit I'm looking to cry it
Speaker 1: out like it still sings, because so.
Speaker 3: Can we can we find her?
Speaker 4: Because I have something I would like to say to that,
Speaker 4: to the like that is a horrific I know that's
Speaker 4: a horrific thing to say to anyone. So I'm sorry
Speaker 4: that she said that, because you never deserved that.
Speaker 1: It's not true, but you know what she said what
Speaker 1: I was most afraid that people were saying about me,
Speaker 1: and so it really hurt, but it also gave me
Speaker 1: a real drive. I was like, you know, I'm I
Speaker 1: was on the next ten year, fifteen year drive. That
Speaker 1: was always in the back of my mind that people
Speaker 1: always thought that about me, and yet I had this
Speaker 1: passion to be changing the world. I felt like if
Speaker 1: I was given so much, then much was expected of me.
Speaker 1: And I felt a real burning passion for people who
Speaker 1: didn't have a seat at the table, people who didn't
Speaker 1: know how to have their voices heard, which is why
Speaker 1: I started my career at SLDN after working at Campaigns,
Speaker 1: and continued to do that at the Center for American
Speaker 1: Progress and other organizations. But it was always nagging, and
Speaker 1: so I felt that I needed to pick a lane
Speaker 1: when I was in politics because I had to prove
Speaker 1: that I was serious. Like that was a big thing
Speaker 1: for me, that I had to prove that I earned
Speaker 1: it and I was serious and I was smart enough
Speaker 1: to be in the room. And then it all kind
Speaker 1: of blew up for me after I had three kids
Speaker 1: in three and a half years. All three kids were mistakes.
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, what's happening. What's happening right now?
Speaker 1: I am like the most fertile person on the planet. Like,
Speaker 1: literally all three kids were mistakes. I cried every time
Speaker 1: I found I was pregnant, and I was like, not.
Speaker 3: Again, again, not again, No.
Speaker 1: We can't go back here. And part of it was
Speaker 1: that I didn't really feel any connection to my kids,
Speaker 1: because I didn't feel connections to babies. I do now
Speaker 1: that they're a little bit older. But the biggest part
Speaker 1: is that I felt like I really, I had really
Speaker 1: earned my career, like I really had felt for the
Speaker 1: first time that I had sacrificed a lot for it,
Speaker 1: like I had sacrificed physically, emotionally, time wise. I had
Speaker 1: moved out of New York because I felt like I
Speaker 1: couldn't prove myself as an individual in New York and
Speaker 1: it was and I was going to lose it. Like
Speaker 1: I knew that working at the intersection of politics and media,
Speaker 1: it's always about like the last thing you were relevant for, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I couldn't be relevant and I couldn't do it.
Speaker 1: And then three weeks after I had my third baby,
Speaker 1: we went into a lockdown for the pandemic and I
Speaker 1: was like, well, now now I'm truly fucked, truly, Like
Speaker 1: now there's no like I have no child's care. There's
Speaker 1: just like babies crying everywhere, so.
Speaker 3: Many babies, so many babies crying.
Speaker 1: Just like everywhere, and I can't use my brain. And
Speaker 1: that is the one way that I have defined myself
Speaker 1: that made me feel confident, and that made me feel
Speaker 1: like I was my own person and not necessarily part
Speaker 1: of my family, and like I love my family. It's
Speaker 1: not a bad thing, but but it's it's hard to
Speaker 1: feel like your feelings are legitimate and like your feelings
Speaker 1: are valid when everything external says well, really nobody's interested
Speaker 1: in the things that you're feeling. And that is something
Speaker 1: that I still feel like I have to balance, like
Speaker 1: putting out there, like, you know, I have a lot
Speaker 1: of advantages for sure, and only as I've become more
Speaker 1: confident I can say and I still feel these things
Speaker 1: and it's okay for me to talk about them.
Speaker 4: That's exactly right, you know, I think this piece of
Speaker 4: coming from a prominent family. Everyone has their idea of
Speaker 4: what that is then, and everyone thinks they know you,
Speaker 4: which means that no one actually knows you because they
Speaker 4: haven't given you an opportunity and a chance to show
Speaker 4: up because they're like, no, no, no, we already get it.
Speaker 3: We know what you're about.
Speaker 1: And so you know when you I mean the amount
Speaker 1: of people over my lifetime that have come up to
Speaker 1: me and said, oh, I'm very close with the Tishes,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, well, I literally don't, like this is
Speaker 1: our first head meeting. Oh like, am I close to you?
Speaker 3: Do?
Speaker 1: I feel close?
Speaker 4: Like I don't write feel right exactly. It's that's it's
Speaker 4: a good point. It's sort of like how we define
Speaker 4: different words and what they mean. Sometimes it is based
Speaker 4: on what our ambition is, what we're really there for.
Speaker 4: So when you talk about this idea of being smart,
Speaker 4: right and what that counselor told you and that struggle
Speaker 4: that you had with feeling that you know, I think
Speaker 4: I think we are in a really complicated time with
Speaker 4: our kids who are growing up in a very old
Speaker 4: school system of schooling and teaching that has expectations that
Speaker 4: just don't meet the moment where it is. And we
Speaker 4: keep saying, if you don't do these three things, then
Speaker 4: we're putting you in this lane and you're never going
Speaker 4: to be like someone who can get yourself out of it.
Speaker 4: And so it's it's a dangerous time where we assume
Speaker 4: that traditional schooling and going straight to college and all
Speaker 4: these things are the way, and anything else outside of
Speaker 4: that means that you're worthless. So utally, you know, like
Speaker 4: you say that politics gave you a chance to feel
Speaker 4: serious and to be taken seriously.
Speaker 3: Who were you proving yourself to with that?
Speaker 1: Everyone? Like I really did care about that. My colleagues
Speaker 1: felt that I had earned the right to be in
Speaker 1: the room. I cared that, you know, politics is like
Speaker 1: it's not really about money, it's about like access to
Speaker 1: power and if people think that you deserve to be
Speaker 1: in a conversation and in a decision making capacity, and
Speaker 1: everyone around me, I was trying to prove that I
Speaker 1: was serious too, Like I didn't totally feel serious myself,
Speaker 1: but in parts of me knew that I did. Like
Speaker 1: I did exceptionally well in law school. I graduated in
Speaker 1: the top of my class, and that was the first
Speaker 1: time that I had felt smart, and so I was
Speaker 1: constantly trying to prove to everyone that, like I did
Speaker 1: deserve to be there. But then I also knew there
Speaker 1: were these very silly, whimsical, theater loving parts of me
Speaker 1: that don't really fit into a culture of politics where
Speaker 1: everyone is trying to be the smartest in the room.
Speaker 1: And so I was afraid that if I let that
Speaker 1: out to the extent to which I feel it, then
Speaker 1: I would be like cutting against everything else I'd proven
Speaker 1: about being serious. So I did kind of pick a lane,
Speaker 1: and I was like, this is my serious lane. And
Speaker 1: so I started going on TV as a political commentator
Speaker 1: in twenty twelve for Obama's reelection, and I did Fox
Speaker 1: News like almost every day, like all the time. I
Speaker 1: did Fox News, CNN, MSNBCCB as across the board, And
Speaker 1: so much of that for me was that nobody could
Speaker 1: say that somebody else got me in the room like
Speaker 1: I was on live TV doing the hardest thing somebody
Speaker 1: in my job could be doing, like I was on
Speaker 1: like Bill O'Reilly, you know, like right, or I'm.
Speaker 4: Like sweating as you're saying that because we know that
Speaker 4: that's a hot seat, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. And so that was a big piece of
Speaker 1: it for me that like I didn't need everybody to
Speaker 1: watch every segment I had ever done, but I knew
Speaker 1: I had gotten through it, and I had this external
Speaker 1: validator to show that I had the right to be
Speaker 1: in my job.
Speaker 4: So like you had this period of time where you
Speaker 4: were so publicly visible your skill set, your expertise, and
Speaker 4: then when did you say, I'm going to let this
Speaker 4: other part of me out.
Speaker 1: I had to hit a real bottom, Like I really
Speaker 1: had to hit a low. And it was when it
Speaker 1: was during the pandemic, when I was locked in with
Speaker 1: these three kids and my whole career had evaporated, and
Speaker 1: I like, I mean, I couldn't work, I couldn't work
Speaker 1: in my field, and I didn't know if I could
Speaker 1: do anything else, Like I didn't know not only I
Speaker 1: didn't know if anyone would hire me for anything else,
Speaker 1: Like I actually didn't know if I was capable of
Speaker 1: doing anything else because I had doubled down so hard
Speaker 1: in political strategy and I didn't know who I was
Speaker 1: without it, and that was really hard for me because
Speaker 1: I had taken that as my identity to replace being
Speaker 1: part of my prominent family, right, right, it was.
Speaker 3: Like, yeah, you were, you were like this.
Speaker 4: It's not that you necessarily fixed that need, you just
Speaker 4: replaced it.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 4: So it's like the same idea as like addiction, where
Speaker 4: it's like, well, I'm not a smoke er.
Speaker 3: Anymore, but man, I'm an alcoholic.
Speaker 4: And I'm not saying that this is exactly like addiction,
Speaker 4: but it's I probably.
Speaker 1: Have a personality of an addict. That's a fair assessment.
Speaker 4: Well, but what I think it is is like when
Speaker 4: we have when we have these expectations of us, especially
Speaker 4: that are about our lineage, which is truly our identity,
Speaker 4: and we are trying to figure our way through them.
Speaker 4: Relevance is always the top sort of need, right. The
Speaker 4: desire is like am I relevant?
Speaker 3: Am I relevant? Do people care?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 4: And so so much of your work up until that
Speaker 4: point had been about being relevant to whatever you were
Speaker 4: throwing yourself into. Being behind the scenes feels real scary
Speaker 4: because it's like everyone's going to forget about me.
Speaker 3: What happens then.
Speaker 1: So so, And I couldn't even work behind the scenes.
Speaker 1: Like the way that I worked meant that I had
Speaker 1: to be up on, like have the latest information at
Speaker 1: all the time, at all times. And I couldn't get
Speaker 1: the latest information because I wasn't working in a way
Speaker 1: that would give me access to it.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 4: No, And I think when we think about what it
Speaker 4: was to be a parent of small children in a pandemic,
Speaker 4: and you have a really almost amplified example of having
Speaker 4: three children under the age of three during that time,
Speaker 4: you can't function. There is no functioning that occurs for
Speaker 4: a parent that is living at home without childcare with
Speaker 4: three small, very needy people.
Speaker 3: How the hell did you get through that time?
Speaker 1: A lot of crying, a lot of jumping in mud puddles.
Speaker 1: We did that about twice a day. We buried a
Speaker 1: dead bird for a little while. That was one activity.
Speaker 1: But I just, you know, I just kind of like
Speaker 1: kept one piece, Like for a little while, I kept
Speaker 1: my political podcast going, even though it was like I
Speaker 1: was doing a really shady job of it. No cared anymore,
Speaker 1: Like I just kind of like kept one piece, just
Speaker 1: to keep my brain involved. And then I actually gave
Speaker 1: myself a pause. I gave myself six months, and I said,
Speaker 1: I'm going to take this six months to just I
Speaker 1: had been keeping myself busy, like I've been keeping the
Speaker 1: political podpast, going to like give me something to hold on.
Speaker 4: To, yeah, keep you tethered, right, yeah, right, Like keep
Speaker 4: me the teathered to myself that was outside of child's care.
Speaker 1: Yeah, taking care of my children and figuring out I
Speaker 1: mean we moved eight times in eighteen months, Like where
Speaker 1: do they go to school? You know, like give me
Speaker 1: something that still felt like myself. And then I actually
Speaker 1: gave myself a really dedicated time to say, let's just
Speaker 1: do a lot of coffees. And they're probably virtual at
Speaker 1: that point, but like, let me just have a lot
Speaker 1: of conversations because I actually don't know who I am anymore.
Speaker 1: Like I'm not ready to go out and say I'm
Speaker 1: looking for this kind of job or I want to
Speaker 1: create this kind of thing or be part of this
Speaker 1: kind of system because I actually don't know what I
Speaker 1: have to offer and I don't know who I am anymore. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was a big so it let.
Speaker 4: Me like yes, like you like yes, I mean that
Speaker 4: is I think that so many women felt that during
Speaker 4: that time.
Speaker 1: I really do and and I just started to like
Speaker 1: make like build roots where we were and just start
Speaker 1: one thing at a time, Like what do I want
Speaker 1: to do? Well? I need advice, Like I need to
Speaker 1: know that like I'm not dead, Like there's no parenting
Speaker 1: advice out there that resonates with me right now, there's
Speaker 1: no work advice that resonates for me, because everything was
Speaker 1: about work life balance, which implied that you chose and
Speaker 1: I was like, well, believe me, I would have never
Speaker 1: chose this. Nope. So I needed to know that I
Speaker 1: did it. I did create such high expectations for myself
Speaker 1: and everything that I did that like if it can't
Speaker 1: be this political career that I've spent fifteen years working
Speaker 1: my ass off, Like I'm not going to have the
Speaker 1: bandwidth to work in that way towards something else right now?
Speaker 1: I just don't. Yeah, So, like, am I gonna be okay?
Speaker 1: And is everything that I'm going to have done not
Speaker 1: just have been a total waste? And so I started
Speaker 1: thinking about who can give me advice in this way
Speaker 1: and in the most selfish way possible. I was like
Speaker 1: I want to talk to my idols, and I want
Speaker 1: to talk to women who have gone through the shittiest
Speaker 1: thing I can possibly imagine, and that makes my things
Speaker 1: seem not that bad.
Speaker 4: I mean, listen, it's there's perspective there. There's huge perspective there.
Speaker 4: And so how did you embark on that? What was
Speaker 4: sort of like what was the beginning like? And then
Speaker 4: let's talk about how that evolved into something really powerful.
Speaker 1: Well, I put a structure together of what I wanted
Speaker 1: the content to be like, and the structure has even
Speaker 1: evolved that. At the beginning, I was like, ten episodes,
Speaker 1: feels like something I can manage. Let me see if
Speaker 1: I can create it. I had worked with a production
Speaker 1: company when I'd done the political podcast and had a
Speaker 1: not good ending with them, so I was like, if
Speaker 1: I build something, I'm building it from scratch.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: But hello, I'm just sitting at the desk in my bedroom, like,
Speaker 1: you know, like this is all new for me. So
Speaker 1: you know, it was a lot of just like walking
Speaker 1: around and like making notes on my note app figuring
Speaker 1: it out, and the structure did change, you know. At
Speaker 1: one point I met someone who was used to doing
Speaker 1: or who had had an experience doing sales for big events,
Speaker 1: you know, sort of like Women of the World's kind
Speaker 1: of events. So I partnered with her to make it
Speaker 1: an in person award and the podcast would be the
Speaker 1: side side offering. And then she told me that she's
Speaker 1: going to grad school full time and I had to
Speaker 1: rethink it. At that point when I was ready to launch,
Speaker 1: I was like, I came up with this thing. Oh,
Speaker 1: I pitched every media company I could think of. My
Speaker 1: friend Michelle Juwanda said, Emily, you are the media company.
Speaker 1: Do not give your idea away to them. So then
Speaker 1: I created the media company and pitched it to existing
Speaker 1: legacy brands to partner with me on and then I
Speaker 1: launched it so like I had this email list it
Speaker 1: was created made up of all of my contacts, and
Speaker 1: I was like, this is really scary. I'm really scary
Speaker 1: of launching that I'm going to launch this podcast talking
Speaker 1: about things that are personal and the way that I feel.
Speaker 1: And I actually don't think that anybody wants to hear
Speaker 1: the way that I feel. And I'm not even sure
Speaker 1: that I want to hear the way that I feel.
Speaker 1: But I'm trying it, and I'm nervous that people aren't
Speaker 1: going to see me serious anymore, and then I'm not
Speaker 1: going to see myself a serious But I'm launching it.
Speaker 1: So I sent out this email to every person i'd
Speaker 1: ever emailed with that said, here's my new podcast. It's
Speaker 1: called Pivot. And within about ten days I got a
Speaker 1: cease and desist order from Vice Media. Oh said, you
Speaker 1: have violated the trademark we hold on Pivot in the
Speaker 1: podcast category.
Speaker 3: You're like, I'm excellent. Well at least someone's paying attention.
Speaker 1: That is literally how I kept trying to reframe it.
Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, I'm totally fucked and I totally
Speaker 1: botched this roll out like the new me. And they're like,
Speaker 1: just kidding, it's not listen.
Speaker 3: I think a season assists, like you aren't. You haven't
Speaker 3: made it until you've gotten a season assist. So like
Speaker 3: so like slow clap for you girl.
Speaker 4: Okay, yeah so you So you were like, I got
Speaker 4: a Pivot my name right now.
Speaker 1: And and Edna, who worked for me at the time,
Speaker 1: and the lawyers kept coming up with like fifty different
Speaker 1: names that I could use, and I was like, but
Speaker 1: here's the problem with that name. It's not Pivot.
Speaker 3: It's not pivot.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's the problem with it. Yeah, once again,
Speaker 1: let me refer back to the season Asis daughter.
Speaker 4: Yep.
Speaker 1: And then my mom came up with she pivots. Actually,
Speaker 1: I had initially wanted to keep it just as pivot,
Speaker 1: which they wouldn't let me because I wanted to be
Speaker 1: able to include men. And then and I thought that
Speaker 1: she pivots just made it too narrow. And then when
Speaker 1: I thought about who I wanted to interview, I was like,
Speaker 1: I actually don't really care about interviewing men.
Speaker 4: So it's fine, and it's like and again it's like, well,
Speaker 4: turns out also fifty one percent of the population, half
Speaker 4: of the labor force is not narrow, and there's going
Speaker 4: to be tons and tons of opportunity here and.
Speaker 3: I think a lot.
Speaker 4: Listen, the corporate world wants us to be afraid to
Speaker 4: say we're just focusing on women, right.
Speaker 3: We are continue we continue to be told.
Speaker 4: Wah, I don't know if that's a category we can
Speaker 4: publicly state we are going all in on. And when
Speaker 4: you look at the numbers, it just doesn't make any sense,
Speaker 4: especially when we know that eighty five percent of consumer
Speaker 4: buying power is in the hands of women.
Speaker 3: So so I'm so thrilled. I'm I'm thrilled you got
Speaker 3: that seasoned assist.
Speaker 4: I'm thrilled you decided to focus I wouldn't even say
Speaker 4: narrow in Yeah, to focus on women and to make
Speaker 4: this about what you really were intending to do from
Speaker 4: the get go, which is to explore and examine your
Speaker 4: own journey through the journeys of other women who have
Speaker 4: dealt with what any of us who have had a
Speaker 4: career and children know to be, which is those two
Speaker 4: things coming up against one another and forcing us to
Speaker 4: make some kind of choice.
Speaker 1: Yep, yeah, yes. And and the thing that was very
Speaker 1: specific for me as I was putting together kind of
Speaker 1: the thesis of the show is that my story was
Speaker 1: that my kids killed my career. And by the way,
Speaker 1: I have a tote bag because my kids killed my career,
Speaker 1: and if I haven't sent it to yet, I'm going
Speaker 1: to yep.
Speaker 3: But need it, need it?
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, you're gonna need that one. But I actually
Speaker 1: was really specific not to book other women with the
Speaker 1: same story as me, because there's so many things that
Speaker 1: happen outside of us that change our perspective that then
Speaker 1: lead us to something different. And again, very selfishly, I
Speaker 1: needed to know what they were, like, I needed to
Speaker 1: know how people got through them. So in the first season,
Speaker 1: we had someone who came out of trans and was
Speaker 1: kicked out of the military. We had a Holocaust survivor. Like,
Speaker 1: we had a huge variety of stories, and that maintains
Speaker 1: the most important piece of it for me, is having
Speaker 1: the biggest variety of stories possible because we're all working
Speaker 1: within the same frame. Is that, like, I didn't anticipate
Speaker 1: this thing. It was going to rock me so much.
Speaker 1: I kind of got gutted out, and then I was
Speaker 1: better because of it, not in spite of it. Because
Speaker 1: of it, I was better.
Speaker 3: Yes, do you.
Speaker 4: Feel like your biggest pivot moment was what happened in
Speaker 4: the pandemic or was it something else?
Speaker 1: No, without question, it definitely was. But I think that
Speaker 1: even in the three years that I've been doing this show,
Speaker 1: I've broadened. You know, I went all in on building
Speaker 1: the media company, went all in on building the show.
Speaker 1: And as my team has gotten more efficient and they've
Speaker 1: gotten and we've gotten professionalized and we've been able to grow,
Speaker 1: it's opened me up to be able to say, well, actually,
Speaker 1: I can do other things and I want to, and
Speaker 1: I started investing in Broadway shows, which, by the way,
Speaker 1: producing is just investing.
Speaker 4: I don't like lead produce, But guess what synonyms are
Speaker 4: there for a reason, and so producing.
Speaker 1: Is what we say.
Speaker 4: I know.
Speaker 1: I still have like a real insecurity about that too.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm not like creatively putting a show together.
Speaker 4: But you know what, you know, it's funny. I don't
Speaker 4: agree with that, because here's what you do. By investing,
Speaker 4: you are creating the space for creativity. You are creating
Speaker 4: room for those on stage and writing behind the scenes
Speaker 4: to go there. So it is a different form of
Speaker 4: that idea of being a creative influence, and it matters.
Speaker 3: So I own that shit.
Speaker 1: You're right, I will own it. Well, So I've done
Speaker 1: two shows now, and is there a thesis to why
Speaker 1: I do it?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 1: I love it like I love it. That's that's that's
Speaker 1: the answer, is that I love it. And I've seen
Speaker 1: a lot of theater in my life, and I think
Speaker 1: that I maybe have an opinion about it. So a
Speaker 1: friend of mine presented this opportunity to invest in the
Speaker 1: first show to me, for us to do it together,
Speaker 1: and I said, well, I feel like if I go
Speaker 1: into a new category, it needs to be on brand,
Speaker 1: like is there a female director?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: Is there a female writer? No? Is there a female
Speaker 1: lead producer? No? I was like, does it know women?
Speaker 1: I don't like.
Speaker 3: You're like, You're like, is there a woman bringing people water?
Speaker 3: Like anything?
Speaker 1: Just please give me something that I can hold on to,
Speaker 1: and it ended up it ended up. It did end
Speaker 1: up being groundbreaking in the sense that Alex Knew a
Speaker 1: one best supporting actress for the first time as a
Speaker 1: non binary actor, which is very exciting. But I felt like,
Speaker 1: even going into this category of theater that it had
Speaker 1: to be so on brand for me. And then I
Speaker 1: was like, actually I like it, and also I think
Speaker 1: it's going to be profitable, so that's good enough. So
Speaker 1: I feel that's good enough. But I say, oh, this
Speaker 1: is the example, like how did I get to this
Speaker 1: point where I just like, give no Fox and do
Speaker 1: exactly what I want to do. I think it's evolving,
Speaker 1: and I think it also feels to me like I
Speaker 1: have to establish myself, like this is my own insecurities
Speaker 1: and I'm not going to project this on anybody else.
Speaker 1: But I still hold this insecurity that if I do something,
Speaker 1: I have to do at ten thousand percent. And so
Speaker 1: I have to be established enough in the thing that
Speaker 1: I am doing to be able to add.
Speaker 4: That is so interesting, right, because that what that will
Speaker 4: do is it will stop you in a lot of
Speaker 4: cases from being a part of something that you deserve
Speaker 4: to be a part of and that they deserve to
Speaker 4: have you involved in. And it also means that we
Speaker 4: have to fight this notion that we're not learners and
Speaker 4: that we have to be experts in the field of
Speaker 4: everything that we are participating in. You will get to
Speaker 4: a point in some of these spaces that you are
Speaker 4: entering and you are learning about where you do become
Speaker 4: more established and have more expertise, but you're sure as
Speaker 4: hell can't get there on day one. Yea, And so right,
Speaker 4: And so like, I think there is so much merit
Speaker 4: to women in particular saying when they're involved in something,
Speaker 4: I'm here to learn and to be an observer and
Speaker 4: to witness this as much as I'm here to contribute,
Speaker 4: because my inherent value is not just in my service
Speaker 4: to others. And if I view it that way, I
Speaker 4: won't do things just because I love them. I'll do
Speaker 4: them because I feel like I'm serving and like extricating
Speaker 4: ourselves from that definition is confusing because it's all about
Speaker 4: our value and our worth and our own mind.
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. I mean even you know, I served on
Speaker 1: you know, we mentioned that I've been on school boards before.
Speaker 1: I served on one board as an alum when I
Speaker 1: was on it, and it wasn't a very gratifying experience
Speaker 1: for me, Like I lived in a different city, it
Speaker 1: was hard for me to really participate. I felt like
Speaker 1: I was they are, quite frankly, as a stand in
Speaker 1: for my family, so they could keep a connection to
Speaker 1: my family, which I think is probably why I was there,
Speaker 1: And I still did the full term, like I did
Speaker 1: nine years. Sometimes I was than other I did it.
Speaker 1: I did it for a long time. But then when
Speaker 1: it came time for me to enter into a school
Speaker 1: for my kids, I did have nine years of experience.
Speaker 1: And so even though the first school board was it
Speaker 1: kind of made me feel shitty, like it didn't really
Speaker 1: feel like I was there for my own expertise. It's
Speaker 1: made me feel a hell of a lot better about
Speaker 1: my engagement on my kids' school board. Yeah, because I
Speaker 1: have a point of comparison and I have experience that
Speaker 1: quite frankly, nobody else has.
Speaker 3: It's true. It's true.
Speaker 4: And so sometimes like these these initial experiences that we
Speaker 4: are sort of judging about whether or not we should
Speaker 4: be doing them, it's actually it's a it's a stepping
Speaker 4: stone to the other thing.
Speaker 3: The thing that's really going to matter.
Speaker 1: It definitely does, and it's actually given me a different
Speaker 1: context to look back on that time that I spent
Speaker 1: on that school board and think it really wasn't a waste,
Speaker 1: that it built me up to this moment that now
Speaker 1: I can be a much better contributing member because I
Speaker 1: do care about you know, yes, I will enter a
Speaker 1: space and say it's okay for me to learn, but
Speaker 1: I do really care that I'm not just a placeholder.
Speaker 1: Like I care that I actually contribute something and then
Speaker 1: there it's the only way that I get something out
Speaker 1: of it. It's how they get the best out of me,
Speaker 1: and I do care about that. But I think a
Speaker 1: lot of it just depends on like reframing the skills
Speaker 1: as opposed to the specifics of something I've done before,
Speaker 1: Like school board to school board is like a pretty
Speaker 1: clear transferable set of skills, yes, but it could be
Speaker 1: something different, you know, the school. The school board that
Speaker 1: I'm on right now has spent the last ten years
Speaker 1: trying to get a turning lane because it's dangerous to
Speaker 1: take a left out of the school. And I basically
Speaker 1: spent the fall running the school's government affairs getting this
Speaker 1: turning lane in with a county.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you're like, you're like, I have a background in this, right,
Speaker 4: Like I can pull from some of that, you know,
Speaker 4: And again, even even when you look at something that
Speaker 4: is not as easy of a leap to make, where
Speaker 4: it's like politics too broadway, Well, yeah, it's about community building,
Speaker 4: it's about making people feel seen, it's about creating space
Speaker 4: for diversity.
Speaker 3: Then then we start to see the connection in the
Speaker 3: through line.
Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent of Actually, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: people similar to me that worked either in the Obama
Speaker 1: administration or with the Obama administration where we felt like
Speaker 1: we moved policy very quickly. Before we had moved hearts
Speaker 1: and minds. And now we're in a storytelling space because
Speaker 1: we're so committed to hearts and minds and feel like
Speaker 1: other people can do the policy moving right now.
Speaker 3: Other people can do the policy moving.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but we moved it. We moved it too fast.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Now, I love that, I think And again, I think
Speaker 4: so much of that is like when we feel like
Speaker 4: everything has to have such incredible meaning, that's it's just
Speaker 4: it's a lot of pressure.
Speaker 3: It's a lot of pressure.
Speaker 4: Sometimes we just have to to get up and go
Speaker 4: and do it and see what happens with it and
Speaker 4: not have always this end game in mind. And like again,
Speaker 4: when you're a person who has the background that you've had,
Speaker 4: it's it's always about like, am I going to package
Speaker 4: this all up and sort of serve it up and
Speaker 4: deliver it? And so that can get in the way
Speaker 4: of actually being present in the process.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because because we're just like, what's the output? What's
Speaker 3: the output here?
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. And I try to reframe things to think
Speaker 1: about that I'm here to be in this and at
Speaker 1: the at the back end of it, I'll get out
Speaker 1: of it what I get or guess the front end
Speaker 1: of it, like, I'll get out of it when I
Speaker 1: get out of it, like, and then I'll figure out
Speaker 1: how what skills I get out of it. But not
Speaker 1: to try to be framing it. And this is something
Speaker 1: I've had to work on for myself. But not framing
Speaker 1: it in that moment of like what am I getting
Speaker 1: out of this? Is it a name? Is it a connection?
Speaker 1: Is it like a bullet you know, resume bullet point,
Speaker 1: But like to take take myself out of that kind
Speaker 1: of mindset and go into I'm going to be here
Speaker 1: and present with it, and I know that everything will
Speaker 1: build to the next thing, but like I actually will
Speaker 1: legitimately get the most out of it if I show
Speaker 1: up very authentically with the skill set that I have
Speaker 1: for better or worse, like whatever it is, with the
Speaker 1: like I now can recognize. I think this is the
Speaker 1: biggest thing that working on it campaign taught me right
Speaker 1: after college is that I'm great for vibes, Like I'm
Speaker 1: great for enthusiasm. You know you are you are?
Speaker 3: You are you really?
Speaker 1: You know, Like the first thing on a campaign, I
Speaker 1: was like, oh my god, I'm not smart the way
Speaker 1: that they are. I don't have the skills that they are.
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, but actually I can keep
Speaker 1: my team working for long hours and like people want
Speaker 1: to work with my team, and I can attract people
Speaker 1: with honey or you know, like.
Speaker 3: Whatever the phrase is, that's right, And so.
Speaker 1: Just knowing that that can be enough, Like that can
Speaker 1: be it. That's okay, I can I can live with that.
Speaker 1: That's good for me.
Speaker 4: Now, when did that shift happen for you, that you
Speaker 4: that you felt that that was that was acceptable, that
Speaker 4: that was actually what you were bringing to the table
Speaker 4: in some of these environments where you didn't feel like
Speaker 4: you were numero uno.
Speaker 1: It really was on that first campaign that I worked
Speaker 1: on after college, like everything I had gotten in college
Speaker 1: had been so reinforcing to me that I was not
Speaker 1: smart and that I would not be professionally successful, and
Speaker 1: then I may have to try to nepo maybe myself
Speaker 1: into the world if I was going to, you know,
Speaker 1: be working in any serious capacity. You know, my advisor
Speaker 1: told me I would never amount to anything, so like
Speaker 1: it was actually told me quite directly. But it was
Speaker 1: on that first campaign where I think campaigns are such
Speaker 1: a good way to start in a career because it
Speaker 1: really is a meritocracy. Like there's no time, there's no
Speaker 1: time to consider, oh did they work hard? Like did
Speaker 1: they make it into the room? Like right right, Like
Speaker 1: by the time you have figured out who's sitting at
Speaker 1: the table with you, you've moved on to the next thing, correct,
Speaker 1: So you can work your way up very if you
Speaker 1: work hard on a campaign, you will get that in return,
Speaker 1: you will see that reflected. And so they gave me
Speaker 1: a lot of responsibility very quickly on that campaign because
Speaker 1: I could keep the enthusiasm up and I could keep
Speaker 1: the trains moving because people wanted to work with me.
Speaker 1: And so I was like, oh, actually, is this a
Speaker 1: workplace skill? Like I think this is I think this
Speaker 1: is a skill. Perhaps it was not a skill in
Speaker 1: law school, which was my.
Speaker 4: Next right right, which is like very again so old school,
Speaker 4: so so regimented, and it's like it's literally like by
Speaker 4: the book where it doesn't exist. So you were you
Speaker 4: were again coming in as like a hurricane sort of saying,
Speaker 4: I don't know, why do we have.
Speaker 2: To do it like this?
Speaker 1: Well, well I didn't at all in law school, by
Speaker 1: the way, I went like heads down. I was like,
Speaker 1: I'm terrified. I cried every day of the first year,
Speaker 1: for sure. I cried every day. And I was like,
Speaker 1: I just need to buck up this part of me
Speaker 1: that I'm insecure about. But I'm going to go headfirst
Speaker 1: into it because I've had this little bit of confirmation
Speaker 1: for working on a campaign that I think that I
Speaker 1: might be smart enough to do this, and I had
Speaker 1: that glimmer. So I need to overcompensate in the academic
Speaker 1: part of it now to prove to myself that I'm
Speaker 1: allowed to be here, to prove to everyone else that
Speaker 1: I'm allowed to be here, Like I'm not I'm supposed
Speaker 1: to be here. But so I had to really overcompensate
Speaker 1: in that. It's the time that I felt the least
Speaker 1: like myself, But I'm also incredibly happy that I did it.
Speaker 1: Like my mom's always like, why are you going to
Speaker 1: be a lawyer? And like that ship is sailed.
Speaker 4: It's like it's like, listen, that was just background info
Speaker 4: that just like helps me know when I should try
Speaker 4: to maybe see someone.
Speaker 1: That's it. I'm literally I like badly read my own contracts.
Speaker 1: It's pretty much when it comes down to now, right,
Speaker 1: But I do think it led me to be able
Speaker 1: to have the confidence to be in a room where
Speaker 1: serious things are being discussed and serious things are happening.
Speaker 1: When we worked at SLDN, I had to represent their interests,
Speaker 1: and when I was in that room representing our clients,
Speaker 1: they didn't care if I was insecure in my childhood.
Speaker 1: What mattered is that I showed up for our clients,
Speaker 1: and so it was the law school training that gave
Speaker 1: me the confidence to be able to do it. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, it was a framework for you, and like you said,
Speaker 4: it was a confidence builder because you were like, it
Speaker 4: turns out I can do this. It doesn't mean I
Speaker 4: necessarily want to or that I'm enjoying it, but like
Speaker 4: it was a flex that you needed to do for yourself.
Speaker 4: That meant, Okay, that part of me has been exploring,
Speaker 4: But now what am I really here to do?
Speaker 1: Do you think.
Speaker 4: That being serious and being taken seriously are the same thing?
Speaker 1: Ooh, that's so deep. I mean, I guess I would
Speaker 1: be case in point that it's not, because I do
Speaker 1: like to think that I'm taken seriously at this point
Speaker 1: in my life. But I definitely show up not serious,
Speaker 1: Like I do have bright purple hair, I do dress
Speaker 1: the way I want to dress, and I bring all
Speaker 1: of it with me. I mean, you know, I'm on
Speaker 1: the school board. And I also performed Poor Unfortunate Souls
Speaker 1: in a drag outfit at the school talent show. So
Speaker 1: with my children getting around, my children ran around me
Speaker 1: as the eels.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that feels exactly on brand. For what you would
Speaker 4: be doing in January. I'm twenty twenty four, so no,
Speaker 4: I think. I mean, my point of that question is
Speaker 4: you are showing yourself, the world and other people that
Speaker 4: you don't have to be stereotypically serious to be taken seriously,
Speaker 4: and that we do actually have to push that definition
Speaker 4: in those spaces that tend to be much more old
Speaker 4: school and like historically a certain way because it's not working.
Speaker 3: It's not working.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So I am I just deeply admire that you
Speaker 4: are showing up in the way that feels right to
Speaker 4: you now because it is being taken fucking seriously.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I appreciate that. I mean, I think that
Speaker 1: I also think I had to let go a little
Speaker 1: bit of meeting other people's expectations, even though like it's
Speaker 1: very ingrained in me, it's hard for me not to.
Speaker 1: But also the thing that took me to my lowest
Speaker 1: during COVID and even a little bit preceding that, was
Speaker 1: that my greatest fear was realized. Like my greatest fear
Speaker 1: was that people would think that I had nepoed my
Speaker 1: way into a room and that I hadn't earned it it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and when I found out that people were saying it
Speaker 1: about me anyway, no matter how much I had sacrificed
Speaker 1: and how hard I had worked, it was actually really freeing.
Speaker 4: Yeah right, because it's like, well, guess what, it doesn't
Speaker 4: actually matter what I do, because people are gonna have
Speaker 4: their own narrative. So all we can decide is who
Speaker 4: has access to us, who we give that attention and
Speaker 4: time to, and and who we just walk the fuck
Speaker 4: away from.
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally, Like once I had, I had done so much,
Speaker 1: like such a personal sacrifice to myself to make sure
Speaker 1: that other people thought that I had earned my place,
Speaker 1: and they still didn't believe it. So then I just
Speaker 1: started saying, well then fuck em, fuck em Like then
Speaker 1: I'm real, like for real, like I'm actually just gonna
Speaker 1: do what makes me happy, and people can think that
Speaker 1: it's serious or not serious, but I'll just keep showing
Speaker 1: up in the way that I want to show up,
Speaker 1: and you'll know to take me seriously by what I bring,
Speaker 1: and if you don't, it's your loss, honestly, because I'm happy.
Speaker 3: It is absolutely their loss.
Speaker 4: And it turns out that like your joy and happiness
Speaker 4: should be really from center in your life, right, that
Speaker 4: should be not something that you work really hard to earn,
Speaker 4: but it should be the way the way through.
Speaker 3: So keep doing that, sister.
Speaker 4: Okay, I want us to wrap with this little exercise
Speaker 4: that I do where I'm going to say three sentences
Speaker 4: and I want you to fill in the blank with
Speaker 4: what feels most right to you right now in describing
Speaker 4: kind of where you've been, where you are, and where
Speaker 4: you're going. So the three sentences are, I was, I am.
Speaker 1: I will be Okay, I was insecure, I am truly
Speaker 1: comfortable in my skin. I will be owner of the
Speaker 1: reigning championship team for a long time. Got them FC.
Speaker 4: Yeah you will, maybe, yes you will. I was so
Speaker 4: honored to be with you a few weeks ago in
Speaker 4: New York when you announced your four newest players, and
Speaker 4: it was such an incredible day for women's sports, for
Speaker 4: women in general, for where we're all headed and what
Speaker 4: you all are doing to shine a light on this
Speaker 4: important sort of just grounding experience that so many of
Speaker 4: us have had that have built our confidence and helped
Speaker 4: us see and feel who we are, and that you're
Speaker 4: also telling these stories across other mediums in your Sheep
Speaker 4: Pivots podcast, and am really in every room that you enter, and.
Speaker 1: So we will talk about Can I talk about got
Speaker 1: Them for a second? Is that okay? Okay, you can.
Speaker 1: I'm like, we haven't talked about got them yet? Know
Speaker 1: we here.
Speaker 3: We are here to hype you and everything that you
Speaker 3: care about.
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, first of all, thank you so much for
Speaker 1: coming to the announcement. I thought it was a great day.
Speaker 3: It was such a great day.
Speaker 4: I mean again, like I wrote about like my you know,
Speaker 4: twenty six soccer year playing heart like the little girl
Speaker 4: and me being like I can't believe I am near
Speaker 4: real live professional soccer players.
Speaker 3: This is insanity.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I like keep asking them questions. I'm like,
Speaker 1: what do you lift? Like like I just want to
Speaker 1: know how strong they are? Right, what do you lift?
Speaker 1: I'm like so impressed.
Speaker 3: It's so fun.
Speaker 1: I'm so psyched about it. So this came about. This
Speaker 1: is really, this is like really my sister's thing. So
Speaker 1: and I actually didn't play sports, like I was so
Speaker 1: admiring of your posts that you played sports forever. I didn't.
Speaker 1: I was like a nerdy theater kid who actually couldn't
Speaker 1: even make it onto the stage because I wasn't even
Speaker 1: talented enough to do that so I was a side player.
Speaker 1: But I love it because because.
Speaker 4: Your talent wasn't recognized. That's how I'd like to reframe that,
Speaker 4: because that's not fucking true.
Speaker 3: Well I don't.
Speaker 1: That is so wonderful and generous of you. But I
Speaker 1: also think we can know where our strengths and Okay,
Speaker 1: I like I like to say in karaoke, what I
Speaker 1: lack in talent, I make up for an enthusiasm.
Speaker 3: That's the damn truth.
Speaker 1: Okay, I keep going, We're reframing our Okay, So my
Speaker 1: sister has a background in sports. My family has been
Speaker 1: in sports for a long time, but my sister really
Speaker 1: has a substantive experience. She ran, She built the brand
Speaker 1: for Peloton in marketing, so she built the global brand. Yes,
Speaker 1: this opportunity came up to say. She started doing some
Speaker 1: sports investing on behalf of our family and seeing that
Speaker 1: women's soccer in particular is like the investment right now,
Speaker 1: like this is this is what is busting. Yep, this
Speaker 1: is what is bumping. And she started meeting with more
Speaker 1: people and they're like, you're in New York, Like you
Speaker 1: guys should be the New York team. And so it
Speaker 1: all came about in some ways kind of quickly and
Speaker 1: in some ways it didn't really intend to do it.
Speaker 1: But again, this is like my sister is leading an
Speaker 1: ownership group on behalf of our family, and so I'm
Speaker 1: just there to support her. I'm very excited about it.
Speaker 1: I kind of like the idea of women's soccer, but
Speaker 1: I don't know a ton and I'm kind of just
Speaker 1: there to support her. From the minute we hit the
Speaker 1: ground and I mean literally hit the ground because this
Speaker 1: never happens. That we signed the deal on Wednesday, our
Speaker 1: team was in the championship game. We landed on Friday
Speaker 1: and won the championship on Saturday. I can't.
Speaker 3: I mean, like, what a week?
Speaker 1: Like what a week?
Speaker 4: Girl?
Speaker 3: You're like, I am really glad I bought this bomber
Speaker 3: jacket because I'm repping this.
Speaker 1: Oh oh by the way, that bomber jacket came from
Speaker 1: one of the staff members. I was like, I don't
Speaker 1: have enough gear.
Speaker 3: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: I was like, where's our box of these? Yes, I
Speaker 1: mean I almost didn't even go to the championship game
Speaker 1: because I just felt kind of disconnected from it, like
Speaker 1: it was my I was. So I was there to
Speaker 1: support my sister and from the minute we got there,
Speaker 1: it was so clear that this league has just been
Speaker 1: so underinvested in and the players deserve so much better.
Speaker 1: Like I was emotionally invested from the second we got there.
Speaker 1: We stayed in this like two star hotel with the players,
Speaker 1: which I'm so glad that we did, yeah, because we
Speaker 1: really got to see them and see how much they
Speaker 1: love and support each other, how hard they work, like
Speaker 1: they are world class athletes and our country has not
Speaker 1: invested him in them in that way and the league
Speaker 1: has not now. And so I was again like I
Speaker 1: had no expectation of being involved in the team until
Speaker 1: I arrived and they were like, oh, could you help
Speaker 1: with this? Can you help with this? And I was
Speaker 1: like sure, And it did make me realize that the
Speaker 1: things that I had done, Like you look at my resume,
Speaker 1: it would not say she'd be doing a great job
Speaker 1: helping the championship team in their championship weekend, right, Like
Speaker 1: I don't say I didn't play sports, but you know,
Speaker 1: it's I do realize that everything in my background has
Speaker 1: led me to where they are weak, and therefore I
Speaker 1: can be of service to them. So like, for example,
Speaker 1: this women's soccer league every single league when they're champion wins,
Speaker 1: goes to the White House for a ceremony with the President,
Speaker 1: including Little League. Do you know who's never been invited
Speaker 1: women's soccer?
Speaker 3: Are you kidding me?
Speaker 1: Never? The US team went as part of the World Cup,
Speaker 1: but the US Women's World Soccer has never been invited
Speaker 1: to the White House for the championship.
Speaker 4: You're like, You're like, hold on, let me text someone. No,
Speaker 4: that's literally what I did.
Speaker 3: Let me text the beep. Okay, Like excuse me.
Speaker 1: For a minute. Like by the time we landed back
Speaker 1: on Sunday evening, I had like eight parts of the
Speaker 1: White House working on this. They were like, they're absolutely right,
Speaker 1: this is an oversight. We will get it. Like I
Speaker 1: actually know now that the White House Political Meetings flags
Speaker 1: this every week and it's like, do we have this
Speaker 1: on our schedule yet because we have to have it. Yes,
Speaker 1: and they're going to fix it. But like, this is
Speaker 1: this is just an example of how like these are
Speaker 1: my friends who work in the White House. I've worked
Speaker 1: with them for twenty years. That's right. They know that
Speaker 1: when I text them this, this is important, correct, and
Speaker 1: then I'm gonna And also they know I have credibility,
Speaker 1: Like they know that I'm not going to do something
Speaker 1: that is not aligned with them because I will tell
Speaker 1: the truth and I come from a place of credibility
Speaker 1: and I don't take short term wins for long term detriment, correct.
Speaker 1: So it was in this moment that I did feel like, Okay,
Speaker 1: the things that I have done did build me to
Speaker 1: be substantively be able to contribute here. So that's my
Speaker 1: Gotham thing.
Speaker 3: So girl, it's absolutely true.
Speaker 4: And I think I think the lesson here and the
Speaker 4: lesson that you keep learning as you let your intuition
Speaker 4: guide you to sort of what's next, is that it's
Speaker 4: not always going to look like a very clear line
Speaker 4: connecting something. But who you are not what you've necessarily
Speaker 4: even done or what you are known for. Who you
Speaker 4: are is what you are bringing to that organization, that mission,
Speaker 4: that group, that conference, that.
Speaker 1: Event.
Speaker 4: People follow will follow you through fire, right, and people
Speaker 4: trust you and they believe in what you're doing and
Speaker 4: they want to be around you.
Speaker 1: And by the way, that is true for every one
Speaker 1: of your listeners, Like all of that is true, Like
Speaker 1: be who you are and people will follow and work
Speaker 1: with you.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, And I think the thing to as we get older.
Speaker 4: You know, I definitely had that pivot moment when I
Speaker 4: turned forty, when I just there's this phrase that.
Speaker 3: Kept coming into my head.
Speaker 4: I will no longer abandon myself in service to others,
Speaker 4: because I had spent my entire career and even my
Speaker 4: personal life really feeling like my value, my worth came
Speaker 4: for my service and whatever I had to do to
Speaker 4: shape shift to meet that demand.
Speaker 3: Is how I was supposed to live.
Speaker 4: But when you figure out that that is not the truth,
Speaker 4: all of the haters, just like you said that, like,
Speaker 4: regardless of what you do, will always have their view
Speaker 4: of what you are. Their voice is just fade away, right,
Speaker 4: And so it is all about doing what you feel
Speaker 4: is right, like living your truth and surrounding yourself with
Speaker 4: people that are there for you.
Speaker 3: And that is clearly what you're doing.
Speaker 4: It's what you've done. It's why I was there, Listen.
Speaker 4: I know Carolyn, but I wasn't there because of Carolyn.
Speaker 4: I was there because of you, right, And so I
Speaker 4: think that's what's important to note is that so many
Speaker 4: of the people in that room were there because of you,
Speaker 4: And it doesn't matter that you didn't fucking play soccer.
Speaker 3: That's not what it's about, right, It's it's your.
Speaker 4: It's your like, your enthusiasm, your light, and also your
Speaker 4: perspective that is like, okay, we got to follow that.
Speaker 4: If em thinks this is important, something's up.
Speaker 3: Something's up. And so I hope that you continue to
Speaker 3: feel that.
Speaker 1: I love you, Erin, I love you too. I love you.
Speaker 4: I'm so proud of you. I can't wait to be
Speaker 4: at a Gotham game. I can't wait to continue to listen,
Speaker 4: to support and hype your podcast and show up in
Speaker 4: all the spaces where you are because you are doing
Speaker 4: such incredibly important work, not because of the family that
Speaker 4: you were born into, but because of the human that
Speaker 4: you have become.
Speaker 1: Well now I'm going to cry. Thank you.
Speaker 4: Crying is good, It's a it's a cathartic exercise.
Speaker 1: Thank you. You are the best, and you truly are you.
Speaker 1: You truly are the hype woman that you put out
Speaker 1: into the world. Like I just I really feel that
Speaker 1: from you on so many levels. No. Remember you grabbed
Speaker 1: me middle of the podcast party and you said, are
Speaker 1: you feeling it? Are you feeling it? And I was like, okay, yes,
Speaker 1: I guess I'm feeling it right.
Speaker 4: Right, It's like it's like, look around, everyone is here
Speaker 4: for you. Like it's so easy in those moments to
Speaker 4: just be like, oh, I got to take this picture,
Speaker 4: gotta do this thing. It's like no, no, no, you
Speaker 4: had an idea, you took the risk, you put your
Speaker 4: heart out into the world to be received and have
Speaker 4: commentary on, and then it led to this moment.
Speaker 3: These are the things, right.
Speaker 4: I say this all the time because I think it's
Speaker 4: really important, especially for people that dare to tell the
Speaker 4: world what they think. People with ideas are dreamers, right,
Speaker 4: and if they do People with ideas who do nothing
Speaker 4: are dreamers. People with ideas who do something are entrepreneurs. Right.
Speaker 4: They are founders, They are builders, they are creators.
Speaker 1: That is a much.
Speaker 3: Harder place to play.
Speaker 4: We can think of amazing stuff all the time, and
Speaker 4: then we are super safe and telling no one and
Speaker 4: doing nothing. When you put it out there, that's when
Speaker 4: the rubber me the road.
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally keep putting your shit out there, you too, lady,
Speaker 1: put it out Thanks.
Speaker 3: Am love you, thank you, love you.
Speaker 2: Thank you for spending time with us today. We hope
Speaker 2: you feel motivated, inspired and fired up to take on
Speaker 2: and burn down that patriarchy. We can't wait to see
Speaker 2: you again next time. Until then, please do your part
Speaker 2: to Hype Women. The Hype Women podcast is produced by
Speaker 2: Aaron Gallagher and Melanie Scroggins. Original score by Alex Yuwan.
Speaker 2: Please listen, subscribe, and rate our show wherever you listen
Speaker 2: to podcasts the most.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this episode of she Pivots slash
Speaker 1: HiPE Woman. We'll be back next week with our regularly
Speaker 1: scheduled programming. Until then, best of luck for all those
Speaker 1: on spring break. Leave us a rating and tell your
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Speaker 1: I endorse she Pivots