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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, it's Andrea. This week, we're doing something a

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Speaker 1: little different. My producer Monique and I spent last week

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Speaker 1: at sea with Virgin Voyages, where we produced Betrayal's first

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Speaker 1: ever live show. Stacy, Tyler and Michaela from Betrayal Season

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Speaker 1: three joined us, as well as Caroline and her kids

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Speaker 1: from season four.

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Speaker 2: If you listen to our show, you know that.

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Speaker 1: Stacy's husband, Justin pled guilty to sexual abuse of a minor,

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Speaker 1: including his abuse of his step son Tyler, and in

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Speaker 1: season four, Caroline's husband Joel was caught having sex in.

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Speaker 3: His police patrol car.

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Speaker 1: He had carried on multiple affairs during their marriage, including

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Speaker 1: some that happened while he was on duty. Together, we

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Speaker 1: had an incredible conversation about Survivor Center true Crime and

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Speaker 1: what it's like to have your real life turned into

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Speaker 1: a true crime podcast. It's an emotional and in depth

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Speaker 1: conversation about the kind of work we do and what

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Speaker 1: it means to the people who are at the center it.

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Speaker 3: We hope you enjoy.

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Speaker 2: Hi everyone, I'm Andrea Gunning. I'm the host and producer

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Speaker 2: of Betrayal.

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Speaker 4: I'm Monique, I'm a producer on Betrayal. I'm going to

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Speaker 4: be moderating tonight so that Andrea can really be in

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Speaker 4: the conversation because she has poured her soul into this show,

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Speaker 4: and she's also been a leader in the podcast industry

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Speaker 4: bringing this show to TV, which we're on season three.

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Speaker 4: A betrayal on Hulu.

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Speaker 1: Just came out last month. When I started this show

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Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen, I didn't know if one person would listen,

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Speaker 1: if two people would listen. I could have never imagined

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Speaker 1: being on a cruise doing our first live show.

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Speaker 2: I know, it's really crazy for those of you that

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Speaker 2: don't know what Betrayal is.

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Speaker 1: It's a project where we focus on families whose lives

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Speaker 1: have been upended due to devastating betrayal, and we focus

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Speaker 1: on the crime and the aftermath, but it's really a

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Speaker 1: show about strength and resilience. Yeah, and so tonight we're

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Speaker 1: going to focus on two families. The family from season three,

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Speaker 1: which is Stacy Tyler and Mikaela's story, and the family

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Speaker 1: from season four about Caroline Brega and her kids.

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Speaker 4: For a lot of the survivors we're going to bring

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Speaker 4: out tonight, this is their first ever time talking about

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Speaker 4: their story to a live audience, and It's a little

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Speaker 4: strange to be on stage clapping and cheering for some

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Speaker 4: of the worst things that have ever happened to someone.

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Speaker 4: It can kind of feel like that, you know, true

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Speaker 4: crime cruise. But we're really here to celebrate the survivors

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Speaker 4: and the bravery and courage of these families to tell

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Speaker 4: their stories, and that's what we're celebrating.

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Speaker 1: So, without further ado, let's all welcome Stacy, Tyler, and Mikayla.

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Speaker 5: Hey, y'all, how you doing.

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Speaker 6: How you feeling good? Good, amazing, A little nervous.

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Speaker 4: You know, Stacy, the documentary came out a month ago.

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Speaker 4: It seems like a lot of people here are already

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Speaker 4: familiar with your story, are listeners of Betrayal.

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Speaker 5: So I want to start with what it was like for.

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Speaker 6: You to see your I see.

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Speaker 4: Your emotional right now, what it was like to see

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Speaker 4: your life played back on a true crime documentary.

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Speaker 6: I don't think it was something that I ever thought

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Speaker 6: would happen. It was just a little different seeing it.

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Speaker 6: I know, me and Tyler have had conversations like it

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Speaker 6: wasn't our story, Like we were like, oh, what's gonna

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Speaker 6: happen next? Like we didn't know, But yeah, there were

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Speaker 6: some moments that were tough. I think when they went

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Speaker 6: back to the good times or the good times that

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Speaker 6: we thought were they were a little hard. We were

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Speaker 6: lucky to kind of sit through each other's interviews, so

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Speaker 6: the things that we talked about were not new to

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Speaker 6: us when the documentary come out because we got to

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Speaker 6: sit and be a part of that with each other.

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Speaker 6: So that was good. I think that helped us to

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Speaker 6: kind of prepare for what was going to be on TV.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Tyler, what about for you? What was it like

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Speaker 4: to see it all together watch it back?

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Speaker 7: I mean kind of just like similar to what my

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Speaker 7: mom said, a lot of just like ooh, this looks good,

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Speaker 7: like it isn't our story. But really the biggest thing

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Speaker 7: for me was just finally seeing it in person, and

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Speaker 7: like knowing that people would see my face with me

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Speaker 7: being so young and everything I'd been through. Is really

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Speaker 7: big to me that I get my story out there

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Speaker 7: and I show a lot of other young men that

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Speaker 7: this is not so uncommon and a lot of other

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Speaker 7: men go through these struggles. So it was a really

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Speaker 7: good moment for me. I was really happy to see

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Speaker 7: it in real time.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and you've already experienced people reaching out to you

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Speaker 4: after the documentary.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean it's when it first came out, it

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Speaker 7: was I couldn't even keep up with all the messages.

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Speaker 7: I mean there was hundreds a day, and still what

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Speaker 7: two months later? At this point, I probably get at

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Speaker 7: least five to ten to day, which is still like

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Speaker 7: pretty crazy. I've had businesses hit me with job offers

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Speaker 7: to work at a gym as a personal trainer. I've

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Speaker 7: had some pretty big celebrities hit me up to continue

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Speaker 7: telling my story and do some pretty big things.

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Speaker 5: So I'm excited for that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we're all so excited for you.

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Speaker 6: I'm proud of you.

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Speaker 4: I want to talk about updates since the documentary came out.

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Speaker 7: Uh yeah, So my stepfather, who you all saw in

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Speaker 7: this documentary, he is currently suing me for defamation. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 7: defamation made it all up. Yeah, suing me for defamation

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Speaker 7: because everything I said was a lie. I wish I

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Speaker 7: could show you all the papers. It's a bunch of bullshit.

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Speaker 5: I'm gonna be real, I'm blunt.

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Speaker 7: I'm not gonna hide who I am.

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Speaker 8: Thank you guys.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, but he he wants to sue me for coming

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Speaker 7: out and talking. But I hope he knows. All that

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Speaker 7: does is motivate me to keep coming.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Andrea, do you want to talk about that a

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Speaker 4: little bit? About the defamation lawsuit and like the ways

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Speaker 4: that we see those being used, I think to manipulate

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Speaker 4: a lot of times storytellers and try to silence people

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Speaker 4: from telling their stories survivors.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I just think it was a scare tactic to

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Speaker 1: try to keep Tyler from speaking.

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Speaker 2: And you know, oftentimes.

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Speaker 1: We see perpetrators try to control this story, and I

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Speaker 1: think he was used to being in control for a

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Speaker 1: really long time. And you know, you've got a great

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Speaker 1: attorney and you're working on it.

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Speaker 9: Yep.

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Speaker 6: You know, his lawyer told me, you have to have

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Speaker 6: character to say a defamation of character, and we've clearly

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Speaker 6: proven that you don't have character. So you know, everybody's

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Speaker 6: a jail house lawyer, so we knew this was going

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Speaker 6: to happen. He's filing appeals as well, because he's throwing

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Speaker 6: anything at the wall to make it stick and whatever.

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Speaker 6: He's trying to appeal his sentence because it was too long. Boohoo.

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Speaker 6: We know that this is something that we're probably going

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Speaker 6: to have to deal with for the rest of our lives.

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Speaker 6: Because that is his right, I've been told. But you know,

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Speaker 6: in the end, he just constantly keeps bearing himself because

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Speaker 6: the district attorney told me, the more appeals you file,

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Speaker 6: the more it looks like you show no remorse. So

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Speaker 6: she said, every time he does this, it's another nail

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Speaker 6: in his coffin. So we fully intend that he's going

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Speaker 6: to put himself there for his maximum sentence.

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Speaker 4: We're going to bring your oldest daughter, Mikaela in in

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Speaker 4: a second. But I want to talk about the family

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Speaker 4: decision to participate in first the podcast and then the

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Speaker 4: Hulu documentary.

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Speaker 6: When they reached out to me about the podcast, I

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Speaker 6: immediately talked to Mikaela and Tyler about it because it's

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Speaker 6: not my story, it's all of our stories. I wasn't

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Speaker 6: going to exploit my child by going out and speaking

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Speaker 6: without his knowledge. So I told him, if we do this,

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Speaker 6: we do it all together. And it was just something

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Speaker 6: that we felt, I think that we needed to do

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Speaker 6: for healing, and just we wanted to take something like

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Speaker 6: this and turn it into something good, and we knew

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Speaker 6: that that was the only way that we could do

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Speaker 6: it was to just make for people more aware because

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Speaker 6: I think when you first have this happen to you,

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Speaker 6: you have so many people come up to you and say,

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Speaker 6: oh my gosh, you know that that happened to me,

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Speaker 6: or that happened to my brother or this, and you don't.

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Speaker 6: You have no idea how many people you know that

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Speaker 6: have dealt with the same thing. I think we have

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Speaker 6: a lot of broken people in this world, and I

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Speaker 6: think it's because a lot of people say silent about

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Speaker 6: these things. So I think our hope was that we

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Speaker 6: could reach a lot more hurting men and just change

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Speaker 6: the world.

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Speaker 7: Uh yeah, pretty much second that. But yeah, going into

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Speaker 7: all this, it was just about I knew what I

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Speaker 7: had been through, you know, searching the web looking things

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Speaker 7: up as a child, going through all this, I genuinely

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Speaker 7: thought I was the only boy in the world who

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Speaker 7: knew what this was like. And I thought I was

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Speaker 7: the only boy in the world who had went through

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Speaker 7: something like this. And that was a big part of

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Speaker 7: the reason why I never talked. I never I never

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Speaker 7: did anything to make a change because I thought this

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Speaker 7: was just my life, this is where I was stuck.

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Speaker 7: No one would understand me. But as I've gone throughout

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Speaker 7: this journey, I've shared my story talk to endless people.

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Speaker 7: I've realized it's an epidemic. To be honest, it's crazy,

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Speaker 7: the amount of men that I've realized to have went

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Speaker 7: through the exact same things I have. They say it's

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Speaker 7: one in six, but with all the people I've talked to,

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Speaker 7: it's probably even higher than that. I wouldn't be surprised

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Speaker 7: if it was more one in four one in three.

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Speaker 7: You're not alone if you're a man who'd been through

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Speaker 7: something like this. And when I was represented the opportunity

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Speaker 7: to come through, do this, use my story to give

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Speaker 7: other men what I didn't have. I couldn't pass it up.

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Speaker 4: Andre, you've worked on the story now two years more almost,

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Speaker 4: so you know a big part of production we spend

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Speaker 4: hours and hours and hours and hours. A lot of

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Speaker 4: those moments never make it to air. Especially with the

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Speaker 4: Hulu documentary, you're filming a lot of things that never

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Speaker 4: make it to air. So can you tell me about

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Speaker 4: some of those moments?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, there was one scene that we shoed

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Speaker 1: Tyler and that was my favorite scene to do.

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Speaker 2: I hate even calling it a scene, but it was.

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Speaker 2: And we were just like working out talking.

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Speaker 1: About life and where you are now and I've known

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Speaker 1: you for two years and you've grown so much, and

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Speaker 1: I think one of the things that you were working

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Speaker 1: on is learning to stop thinking about life in the

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Speaker 1: conditional way, like if I do this, then I'll be happy.

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Speaker 1: If I get here, I'll be happy. If this happens,

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Speaker 1: I'll be okay. Because that's what happens when survivors of abuse,

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Speaker 1: they go through that, because that exchange is conditional, it's transactional.

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Speaker 2: And I feel like you've.

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Speaker 1: Come such a long way to just be present and

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Speaker 1: figure out who you want to be and do what

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Speaker 1: you want to do. And we talked about that in

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Speaker 1: the scene and that was like my favorite, and it

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Speaker 1: didn't make it to air.

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Speaker 2: I think, Michela, you have a scene too that you love.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I had a scene.

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Speaker 10: Tyler made a comment to me about how he was

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Speaker 10: very thankful that I was like the stronghold for our

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Speaker 10: family and that he was very sorry that I was

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Speaker 10: kind of put on the back burner, Like it was

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Speaker 10: just very sweet, very emotional moment that I think a

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Speaker 10: lot of people needed to see.

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Speaker 5: And that got cut too.

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Speaker 6: Mikayla's kind of I don't want to say his silent victim,

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Speaker 6: but I think that you know, all of the focus

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Speaker 6: was really on like Tyler and his healing and what

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Speaker 6: happened to him, And it was a really good moment

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Speaker 6: for us to say to you that, you know, we

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Speaker 6: were sorry that you kind of got faded into the

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Speaker 6: background a little bit, because that's was never anyone's intention,

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Speaker 6: you know, So it was it was a sweet moment

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Speaker 6: between everybody, and we were really sad when the documentary

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Speaker 6: came out. We were like, man, that was such a

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Speaker 6: good moment.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, like your mom was saying, you know, you're part

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Speaker 4: of the story. Can sometimes get overshadowed, but if it

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Speaker 4: was not for you, we might not be sitting here.

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Speaker 4: So can you tell me a little bit about reporting

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Speaker 4: to the police what that experience was for you.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, So, for those of you that didn't listen, Tyler's friend,

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Speaker 10: who is I guess we'll call him, for lack of

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Speaker 10: better terms, the first victim. He reached out to me

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Speaker 10: and disclosed to me that my stepdad had done this

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Speaker 10: to him, and like full disclosure. I was driving and

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Speaker 10: I opened the message and immediately started like bawling, and

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Speaker 10: of course, like forty million things are going through my head,

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Speaker 10: one thing being this is why you don't text and drive.

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Speaker 1: But.

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Speaker 10: I mean, so I pulled over, had like a two

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Speaker 10: minute cry, and then I was.

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Speaker 2: Like work mode.

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Speaker 10: At the time, I worked at an outpatient psychiatry office,

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Speaker 10: so I was like a mandated reporter, and so I

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Speaker 10: immediately went to work mode and was like, Okay, these

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Speaker 10: are the steps I need to do, and I'm going

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Speaker 10: to do them. I do not care that he is

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Speaker 10: my stepdad. I don't care who the fuck he is.

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Speaker 10: And now the scary part, I guess for me was

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Speaker 10: that this was different. At work, I just make a report,

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Speaker 10: but here he was already under investigation for the cameras,

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Speaker 10: and so I was like, okay, I feel like I

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Speaker 10: need to talk to a detective or something like.

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Speaker 5: I don't know.

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Speaker 10: It was just like something in my brain didn't care

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Speaker 10: that he was a father figure to me. It was like,

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Speaker 10: let's get this done, let's do the right thing.

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Speaker 4: And then that next few hours moved really quickly.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, So I drove about an hour and a half

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Speaker 10: or so to the police station, and then when I

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Speaker 10: got there, I gave them my phone. They took all

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Speaker 10: the evidence off of it, all the messages with his friend,

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Speaker 10: and then they were like, oh, well, while you're here,

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Speaker 10: let's go through this binder. And they opened it and

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Speaker 10: it was photos of friends, family, anything you can think of.

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Speaker 10: In the bathroom, they had me identify everybody, and then

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Speaker 10: they whipped out another binder, and that binder was all me.

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Speaker 6: I saw my husband on some.

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Speaker 10: Photos, and then.

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Speaker 5: After that I left.

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Speaker 6: I called mom immediately.

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Speaker 10: She's like, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm

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Speaker 10: leaving work.

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Speaker 6: I'm grabbing my kids and we're going. And I was like, well,

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Speaker 6: I have.

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Speaker 10: A tiny, little one bedroom apartment, but you could stay

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Speaker 10: with me. Poor Tommy he didn't even know any of

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Speaker 10: this because it was like so fast everything's happening that

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Speaker 10: I didn't get time to tell him until he was

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Speaker 10: already off work. And I was like, hey, by the way,

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Speaker 10: mom and the kids are coming to our tiny little guys,

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Speaker 10: right like our tiny little nine hundred square foot one

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Speaker 10: bedroom apartment. I worked from home for a few days,

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Speaker 10: try to help mom with the kids, try.

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Speaker 2: To figure life out.

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Speaker 4: And then Tyler came forward, Yeah, we're going to talk

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Speaker 4: more about that time period and kind of like survival

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Speaker 4: mode and how that gets represented in true crime stories.

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Speaker 4: But I also want to talk about your position as

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Speaker 4: the eldest daughter.

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Speaker 5: And Tyler's big sister.

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Speaker 4: Can you tell me from your perspective what it's been

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Speaker 4: like to watch Tyler's journey of coming forward and then

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Speaker 4: getting to the place where he is today.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: Absolutely.

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Speaker 10: Just watching him help other people is something that I

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Speaker 10: can't even explain to anybody, what kind of feeling that

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Speaker 10: is inside as somebody who was his caretaker for a

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Speaker 10: long time.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, well thank you.

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Speaker 4: What about for you, Stacy, watching Tyler go on this

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Speaker 4: journey over the past few years with the show, what

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Speaker 4: has that been like for you as a mom?

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Speaker 6: I don't think anybody can never understand what betrayal did

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Speaker 6: for us. You know, we had a lot of people

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Speaker 6: say things like, you know, gosh, why would you want

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Speaker 6: to share that? Or why do you want to go

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Speaker 6: national with that? And this and that? And I had

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Speaker 6: those moments, especially when people can be very cruel online

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Speaker 6: and judge. But I think seeing him grow and also

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Speaker 6: just seeing the men that have came behind him and said,

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Speaker 6: you know, I'm fifty some years old and I've never

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Speaker 6: told anybody this in my life. There are people that

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Speaker 6: are free because of you, And I'm incredibly proud to

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Speaker 6: be your mother, and I don't care what anybody says.

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Speaker 6: And I don't care. You know, if someone thinks I

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Speaker 6: did something wrong, I think I did things wrong. If

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Speaker 6: I was watching my documentary, I would have been like

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Speaker 6: m girl. I would have talked about myself. It's true.

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Speaker 6: You know, when you're in those kind of moments, you

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Speaker 6: know you're just coming from a place of just sheer chaos.

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Speaker 6: But I'm just incredibly proud to be your mom.

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Speaker 7: Well, thank you guys.

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Speaker 6: He still don't take the trash out enough, though, we

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Speaker 6: could work on that.

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Speaker 5: She's lying.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back.

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Speaker 1: We took a short break to bring out Caroline Barrega

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Speaker 1: from season four, along with her two kids. Her daughter

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Speaker 1: Nicole was on stage and her son participated from the

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Speaker 1: audience to protect his anonymity.

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Speaker 6: Thank you all so much for being here.

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Speaker 5: Thank you for having us.

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Speaker 4: Caroline, you know I want to hear a little bit

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Speaker 4: in your words about what you went through.

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Speaker 5: It was an infamous Monday afternoon.

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Speaker 11: I was at work and I opened my laptop and

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Speaker 11: I was in an online meeting, and I saw my

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Speaker 11: phone go off. There was a chime, and I saw

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Speaker 11: that there were cameras around our house, and that there

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Speaker 11: was some movement, and as I looked at it, I

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Speaker 11: noticed that my now ex husband was dragging up the

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Speaker 11: trash cans, and I thought to myself, Oh, that's strange

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Speaker 11: what he's doing home so early. Maybe he was out

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Speaker 11: on an investigation or something happened and he just ran

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Speaker 11: by to grab some lunch. And I continue to watch,

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Speaker 11: and then it dawned on me, where's his take home

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Speaker 11: cop car? The take home cop car wasn't in the driveway,

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Speaker 11: and so I texted him and I said, hey, is

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Speaker 11: everything okay? And he didn't respond, and hey, is everything okay?

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Speaker 11: I noticed that you're home really early, and I just

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Speaker 11: continued to watch the little dots the three ellipses on

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Speaker 11: my phone bounce, and finally he respond and he said, no,

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Speaker 11: everything's not okay.

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Speaker 5: I fucked up the worst I've ever fucked up in

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Speaker 5: my life.

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Speaker 11: You're going to want to divorce me. And I was scared,

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Speaker 11: and I thought, you know what happened, And so after

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Speaker 11: several attempts, he finally answered the phone, and he was

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Speaker 11: very stoic about it and just let me know what

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Speaker 11: he did. And I was able to maintain my composure.

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Speaker 11: I gently closed my laptop and then I walked out

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Speaker 11: and I made it to a street corner before I

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Speaker 11: just completely lost it and I said, what have you done?

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Speaker 11: And he just emphasized repeatedly, I'm sorry. I'm so sorry, Caroline.

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Speaker 11: You have to tell the kids. Reporters are going to

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Speaker 11: start calling the house. You have to tell the kids.

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Speaker 11: And I didn't know what to do.

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Speaker 5: I drove home.

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Speaker 11: I don't remember driving home, and when I got to

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Speaker 11: the house, I was just kind of pacing. And Nicole

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Speaker 11: came home and she was very jovial, her typical self,

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Speaker 11: and she said, Hey, who doing my job for me?

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Speaker 11: Who brought the trash up today? I mean, it's ironic,

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Speaker 11: the stuff you remember in times of trauma. And I

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Speaker 11: just sat there staring at her, and she said, are

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Speaker 11: you okay?

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Speaker 5: And I said no, and she said, is daddy okay.

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Speaker 5: I didn't even know how to respond, and I just

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Speaker 5: said no.

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Speaker 11: And she got kind of this shock, because when you're

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Speaker 11: a cops kid, you live in fear that something happens

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Speaker 11: to your dad.

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Speaker 5: And the next.

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Speaker 11: Words out of her mouth were, did he get caught

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Speaker 11: cheating on you? And I just stared at her. And

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Speaker 11: for those of you who have listened to the podcast.

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Speaker 11: I can assure you my son graduated with honors from

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Speaker 11: a very prestigious university. But she did call him because

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Speaker 11: we didn't have the rule book or a handbook on

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Speaker 11: how you handle when a disclosure.

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Speaker 5: Like this happens.

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Speaker 11: And she said, hey, I got to talk to you.

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Speaker 5: It's an emergency.

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Speaker 11: And he said, hey, I'm getting ready to take a

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Speaker 11: chem exam and she's like, no, it's an emergency. So again,

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Speaker 11: I can assure you he did pass. Everything is fine.

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Speaker 11: Next thing you know, our life was just a whirlwind

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Speaker 11: and a snowball, and I went into autopilot and trying

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Speaker 11: to make sure that I could have some form of

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Speaker 11: normalcy and just get by.

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Speaker 12: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I want to talk a little bit about your

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Speaker 4: husband's career as a police officer, and you, specifically as

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Speaker 4: his partner for twenty five years, sacrifice so much personally

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Speaker 4: to give him those advancements in his career, those late

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Speaker 4: nights that you were taking care of the house and

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Speaker 4: the kids, and a big part of your value system

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Speaker 4: was believing in what he did and the institution he

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Speaker 4: worked for, and that changed for you overnight. So can

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Speaker 4: you talk a little bit about what that experience was

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Speaker 4: like and where you're at with that today.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely.

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Speaker 11: My ex husband was a very decorated service member for

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Speaker 11: the community, and we had a room in our home

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Speaker 11: our office that were filled with just community and commanders commendations.

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Speaker 11: He joked and called it the love Me Room because

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Speaker 11: everything in there was all about him, and I showed

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Speaker 11: all the love from the community of him. I knew

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Speaker 11: when I married a cop what I was getting into.

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Speaker 11: I'm not an anomaly of someone who marries into a

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Speaker 11: law enforcement family. I made a sacrifice of knowing that

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Speaker 11: I was going to have to be with the kids

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Speaker 11: alone at night, and I would be the person who

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Speaker 11: would be aerating the field when I'm walking across to

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Speaker 11: take them to practice and to dance class, and that

439
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Speaker 11: it would be something that would be busy. And I

440
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,399
Speaker 11: didn't sacrifice everything for me. I too have a career

441
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Speaker 11: and do use my brain and my degrees. But I

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Speaker 11: knew that I would be the person who would be

443
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,240
Speaker 11: able to have more flexibility to be there for our family,

444
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:56,680
Speaker 11: and would also be the person who would be able

445
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 11: to support him in his career as well.

446
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:01,879
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know your.

447
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:03,960
Speaker 4: Career is something that your job has asked you not

448
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,639
Speaker 4: to talk about Otherwise We would love to have featured

449
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 4: it in the podcast and have it be a part

450
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 4: of who you are on the show, but we understand

451
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 4: and we wanted to keep your job.

452
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:14,399
Speaker 5: So thank you. I really appreciate that.

453
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, Dre, can you talk a little bit about Caroline's

454
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 4: story and why it stood out to you as with

455
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 4: the season you wanted to produce next.

456
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:31,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it started off as a potential story

457
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 1: for the weekly series, So you were actually working with

458
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 1: Caroline directly, which is a little bit different.

459
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:41,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, And we were just talking about it in a

460
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:42,440
Speaker 2: production meeting.

461
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:46,359
Speaker 1: And there was research we had to do and we

462
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 1: had to you know, find these ia.

463
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 5: Files on Joel Internal Affairs.

464
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 1: Thank you, and we finally got them back and there

465
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,680
Speaker 1: was so much there and we said to each other,

466
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 1: this can't just be a weekly We need to do

467
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 1: ten episodes on this story.

468
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 4: It's very rare working in media to get internal affarious

469
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 4: investigations audio files from police investigations, and so we said,

470
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 4: you know, this is something that we need to follow.

471
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:20,160
Speaker 5: Yeah.

472
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so that was the beginning of everything. Yeah,

473
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 1: and you had already had a relationship with Mo and

474
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 1: I'm like, hi, you know, and you know, we get

475
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 1: this question a lot, like why this story, and I

476
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 1: oftentimes especially from law enforcement, like I've seen so much.

477
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 1: This isn't the worst case ever. You know, it's important

478
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:49,639
Speaker 1: for Betrayal to focus on stories that really feel like

479
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 1: the every day, that feel like it could be your

480
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 1: neighbor or your friend, because it feels accessible and then

481
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 1: we can understand it. And that's why I thought your

482
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:03,680
Speaker 1: story was important to share.

483
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, so I want to talk to you, Nicole Hi. Hi.

484
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 4: You're the one who originally found Betrayal, so in a

485
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 4: lot of ways, you're another reason we're here on stage.

486
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 5: Yes, you're welcome.

487
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 4: What has it been like for you to watch your

488
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 4: mom over the past three years, you know, since your

489
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 4: dad's actions came to light, but also this past year

490
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,400
Speaker 4: in particular producing the podcast.

491
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 9: She's always been such a like independent and powerful woman.

492
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 9: So seeing her go through the twenty twenty two year,

493
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 9: which was you know, infamous year, that was of course

494
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:53,640
Speaker 9: really hard because she just wasn't herself. But ever since

495
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 9: we kind of got our footing as a new family,

496
00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,680
Speaker 9: a family as three, she's really grown and to someone

497
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:06,880
Speaker 9: that people go to, whether that's women that have experienced

498
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 9: cheating and whatever else, or even women in our own

499
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 9: police department where this happened come to her as like

500
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 9: a source of comfort and be a person that people

501
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:19,679
Speaker 9: can lean on.

502
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:26,400
Speaker 4: Carolyn, Before I want to ask some questions to both

503
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:28,239
Speaker 4: of your kids. But before we do, I want to

504
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 4: talk a little bit more about the institutional betrayal of

505
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 4: the police department, because that was also a place where

506
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 4: you put a lot of time and energy in and

507
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:43,159
Speaker 4: I think expected some support back. Institutional betrayal is a

508
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 4: term we recently learned from this research psychologist doctor Jennifer

509
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,679
Speaker 4: Fried and it's a different experience than the interpersonal betrayal

510
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 4: you had with your ex husband, And I want to

511
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 4: talk a little bit about how that felt different, what

512
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 4: that felt like.

513
00:27:55,920 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 11: Sure, it's a phenomena when you're in a lawnforcement family.

514
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,159
Speaker 11: And I can say without making a big disclosure, I

515
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,400
Speaker 11: work in a very closely law enforcement related field, and

516
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,400
Speaker 11: when you're a part of a law enforcement family, law

517
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 11: enforcement tends to hang out with law enforcement. These were

518
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,679
Speaker 11: people who were at the births of my kids. They

519
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 11: showed up shortly thereafter with gifts. We did family functions together,

520
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 11: we celebrated together. There was law enforcement lined up In

521
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,359
Speaker 11: our wedding party, my ex husband's groom's cake was a

522
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 11: pig with a badge on it. So this was our

523
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 11: life and it was a big piece of it. And

524
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 11: I can tell you that you become fiercely protective of

525
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 11: each other. And I had this big belief that, yes,

526
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 11: there are bad apples and every organization, but they're few

527
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 11: and far between. I would chant that to myself. I

528
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 11: was extremely protective over other law enforcement families, and you

529
00:28:55,960 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 11: just become this big unit together. And as my ex

530
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 11: husband's double life began to unravel, I lost all that.

531
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 11: So I didn't just lose my nuclear family, I lost

532
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 11: my extended family within the law enforcement community.

533
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 5: And it was just vanished.

534
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 11: My facade of what I had tried to raise my

535
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 11: kids to believe about law enforcement and trusting law enforcement,

536
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 11: what I believed about it completely vanished. So it was

537
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 11: just not grief of my nuclear family, it was grief

538
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 11: of my community.

539
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, like Andrea said, we first started working together,

540
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 4: and I remember in the beginning, about a year and

541
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 4: a half ago, before we did our very first interview,

542
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:47,479
Speaker 4: you were understandably very cautious about participating in this. So

543
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 4: can you tell me a little bit about what you

544
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 4: were weighing when you were deciding do I want to

545
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 4: tell this story publicly.

546
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 11: It's not the most comfortable feeling to reveal the most

547
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 11: private details of your life life, and I was really

548
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 11: struggling with how I wanted to approach this. I was

549
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 11: living in this silence and this constant internal thought of,

550
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 11: oh my gosh, how did this happen to me?

551
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 5: How did this happen?

552
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 11: And I think that's really why the podcast drew me

553
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 11: in so much. There's an episode in season one where

554
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 11: it's the very first time I ever heard the term

555
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 11: betrayal trauma, betrayal therapy, and I am not too proud

556
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 11: to admit it. I listened to that episode at least

557
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 11: a dozen times. I just resonated with me so much,

558
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 11: and it was just really, really difficult to really imagine

559
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 11: putting myself out there. It was scary because I didn't

560
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 11: want to have this define my kids. It certainly has

561
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 11: shaped them, but it certainly does not define them whatsoever.

562
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 11: And I work in a law enforcement related community, so

563
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 11: this was really difficult for me to in essence call

564
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 11: out some of my colleagues.

565
00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 5: And put that on blast.

566
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 11: But you know, I remember those conversations very very well,

567
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 11: and I would love to go back and tell myself,

568
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 11: oh my god, suck it up, Buttercup, put your head up,

569
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 11: throw your shoulders back, and be the damn voice for

570
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 11: women who are living in terror and shame to discuss this.

571
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 4: Hell yeah wow. I'm going to pivot to Caroline's son

572
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 4: in the audience and have you too, talk as her children.

573
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 4: I mean, you know you have said that this was

574
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 4: a family decision, and I remember when you were weighing

575
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 4: if you wanted to do this. A big part of

576
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 4: it was I got to talk to my kids. I

577
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 4: got to make sure my kids are okay with this.

578
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 4: So I want to hear about what those conversations were

579
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 4: like with y'all as a family, about are we on

580
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 4: board with this, are we going to participate? Are we

581
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 4: going to support our mom in this?

582
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,479
Speaker 6: What was that like for y'all? Nicole, do you want

583
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 6: to start?

584
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 5: Yeah? So, when my mom.

585
00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 9: First came to us discussing the possibility of us doing

586
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 9: the podcast and going forward with everything, I of course

587
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 9: wanted my mom's narrative out there, our family's narrative out there,

588
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 9: because we were so silent. People just assumed or they

589
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 9: just flat out told lies about our family, and of

590
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 9: course my dad's presence in my town didn't help with that.

591
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 9: So that was the main reason why I wanted to

592
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 9: do this, or we wanted to do this as a

593
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 9: family unit, to just put our voice out there and

594
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 9: say we're solidified in our new sense of reality and

595
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 9: this is how we're going to move forward. And even

596
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 9: though all of this happened, we came out on the

597
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 9: other side stronger.

598
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 8: I think it boils down to two main reasons. I

599
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 8: think seeing the effect that the podcast had on both

600
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 8: with my mom and my sister and the value that

601
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 8: they got from it, I think that was huge. And

602
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 8: I also think that it takes courage to platform these stories,

603
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 8: and it.

604
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 6: Takes courage to tell these stories, and I.

605
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 8: Think people need to hear them and the messages that

606
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 8: we receive on a daily basis of people saying what

607
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:24,479
Speaker 8: we said listening to the podcast initially, you know this

608
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 8: could be us, and so I think it's important to

609
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 8: let people know that you can go through these unfortunate circumstances,

610
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 8: to say the least, and make it out on the

611
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 8: other side.

612
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think that Caroline Son, the way that

613
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 4: we have navigated your privacy and your participation in this show,

614
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 4: you know, shows that there are different ways that you

615
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 4: can incorporate different members of the family that have different

616
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 4: comfort levels with their exposure. So can you talk a

617
00:33:58,040 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 4: little bit about why it was important for you to

618
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 4: be a voice on the show and participate actively.

619
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:08,759
Speaker 8: Well, you have these prominent community members and law enforcement

620
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 8: and other related fields just saying blatant lies about my

621
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 8: entire family, and obviously that didn't sit right with any

622
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:22,800
Speaker 8: of us. And so it's not about getting the truth

623
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:24,799
Speaker 8: where it's not about getting our truth out there. It's

624
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 8: literally just the truth out to the community. And that

625
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 8: was a part of it. And I think also just

626
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 8: this experience brought us closer together. And I think that

627
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 8: having a unified front, and I'm appreciative of the accommodations

628
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,799
Speaker 8: to my privacy requests and all that, but being a

629
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 8: unified front was huge and I'm honored to be a

630
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 8: part of it, and I'm proud of them.

631
00:34:54,280 --> 00:35:00,799
Speaker 1: I think what people often forget is, aside from the affairs,

632
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 1: what Joel was doing was planting seeds about who you

633
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 1: were as a person, as a wife, as a mother.

634
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 2: Behind the scenes, so if he.

635
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:16,280
Speaker 1: Ever did get caught by a colleague, they would say, well,

636
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 1: could you blame him? Like he was creating a story

637
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 1: about you and you know, putting your reputation.

638
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 2: On the line.

639
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 1: So it was so much more than just the sexual

640
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:32,760
Speaker 1: misconduct within the CESPD. It was how he was using

641
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 1: you and your image and what you've done for your

642
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:39,359
Speaker 1: family against you so that he could just get away

643
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:43,919
Speaker 1: with it. And that's I think really important because when

644
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,800
Speaker 1: we started working together, You're like, I want my truth

645
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 1: to be told because he took that away from you.

646
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:54,360
Speaker 4: You really did, you know, truth and transparency has become

647
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,400
Speaker 4: a theme of the family that y'all have rebuilt with

648
00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 4: the three of you, And so I want to talk

649
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:02,479
Speaker 4: about what that looks like when you have two adult

650
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 4: children and you're saying, now we're pivoting new family and

651
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 4: we're going to reconvene and make new values. So what

652
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 4: does it mean to have truth and transparency be such

653
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 4: a big value in your family. I think I'm going

654
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 4: to let my kids take that one.

655
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 9: Well, going off of this like new family, everything happened

656
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:30,720
Speaker 9: in April, and then after that we recognize that little

657
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,400
Speaker 9: things in our family we just kind of let slide.

658
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 9: As I'm sure many other families can relate, like certain

659
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 9: fights that we had, or behaviors.

660
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 5: Or whatever else we just didn't want to bring up.

661
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:46,720
Speaker 2: And so moving.

662
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 9: Forward with my mom, my brother, and myself, we realize

663
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:55,839
Speaker 9: that we just want to be our authentic selves, and

664
00:36:55,960 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 9: to do that comes truth and accountability and recognizing each

665
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 9: other's paths and really just being each other's advocates.

666
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 8: And we had to go through this process of healing together,

667
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 8: and it's a nonlinear process. It doesn't get better every

668
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 8: single day. There's good days and bad days. We still

669
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:22,839
Speaker 8: have good days and bad days. We're still healing. But

670
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 8: I think it's the understanding of we're in it together

671
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 8: and we're gonna go through this together for the rest

672
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 8: of our time here. And I think that was important too.

673
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 8: And part of that after facing so many lies and

674
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:41,839
Speaker 8: such profound deception and having that all come to light,

675
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 8: obviously truth and transparency has to be a bedrock of

676
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 8: a new foundation after you face that.

677
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,840
Speaker 11: The other piece that I had to face was the

678
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 11: fact that certain things I tried to not say, and

679
00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:00,399
Speaker 11: at one point, this one here looked at me and said,

680
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 11: do not lie to me anymore. He lied to us enough,

681
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 11: and it's our turn to be able to make choices

682
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 11: on if we're going to show up to something or

683
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 11: do something.

684
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,359
Speaker 5: Do not lie to me like he did. So I said,

685
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 5: you have my word from here on out, no more.

686
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,320
Speaker 4: Andrea, I want to talk a little bit about institutional courage,

687
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 4: which we as a production team encountered this term this year,

688
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 4: and we've seen it in both of these families.

689
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, family is an institution and it takes

690
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:38,359
Speaker 1: courage to lead with truth and transparency to make sure

691
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:42,399
Speaker 1: these things don't happen in the future. And so I

692
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:47,400
Speaker 1: think by you guys sharing and knowing what was actually

693
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,280
Speaker 1: happening so you can make your own choices, that takes

694
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 1: institutional courage. And you know, obviously there's the CSPD of

695
00:38:55,800 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 1: it all. There are a lot of people inside CSPD

696
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 1: that has known what Joel has been doing for a

697
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:09,319
Speaker 1: really long time, but we're too afraid to speak out

698
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,239
Speaker 1: because they didn't want to throw a name out there

699
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 1: and have backlash. So I mean, it takes courage to

700
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 1: come forward. But what's happening and what we researched at

701
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:25,800
Speaker 1: CSPD is that's not happening, And so Hopefully by bringing

702
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:30,400
Speaker 1: awareness of what's going on with the misconduct, someone will

703
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:40,359
Speaker 1: do the right thing.

704
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:47,919
Speaker 2: Welcome back.

705
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 1: We're sharing the audio from our first ever Betrayal live show.

706
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,800
Speaker 1: We're talking with Stacy Tyler and Mikaela from Betrayal season

707
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:58,279
Speaker 1: three and Caroline Borega with her two kids from season four.

708
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,920
Speaker 1: One of our Betrayal Pretty there is. Monique moderated the event,

709
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:03,399
Speaker 1: so I'll throw it back to her.

710
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:06,719
Speaker 4: All right, So I want to transition to talking as

711
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:08,879
Speaker 4: a big group, and I want to start just by

712
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 4: talking about what it's like to be in person together.

713
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,239
Speaker 4: This was a little experiment that we were asked to

714
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 4: participate in and we didn't know how it would go.

715
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:19,480
Speaker 6: So what has it been like?

716
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:22,840
Speaker 4: You know, you've had very different experiences, but you've also

717
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:24,799
Speaker 4: had a core similarity.

718
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 11: I can tell you that after the first episode aired,

719
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 11: I received an email from one of the producers who said, Hey,

720
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 11: Stacy wants to talk to you, and she's asking if

721
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 11: we can share your information.

722
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 5: Is that okay?

723
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 11: And I said sure and fast friends and sisterhood in

724
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 11: this camaraderie in this crazy ass way, and it was

725
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:52,959
Speaker 11: like trial by fire and she was like.

726
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 5: Don't do x Y and Z don't read X Y

727
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 5: and Z do.

728
00:40:56,480 --> 00:41:03,359
Speaker 11: She did, and it's been I felt like I knew

729
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:06,359
Speaker 11: her before we even stepped on the ship. It's been

730
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 11: incredible and I'm very grateful for you.

731
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:12,359
Speaker 6: Yeah, I feel the same way. We you know, we've

732
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 6: had a bond that I think will always you know,

733
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 6: will always have I'm sure Ya Ashley and Jen and

734
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 6: all of them feel the same way. There's a lot

735
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:26,799
Speaker 6: of these get this shit text message, you know, and

736
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 6: you can't make this up, like you know, especially with

737
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 6: a lawsuit.

738
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:30,440
Speaker 4: You know.

739
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:33,640
Speaker 6: I was like, oh my god, girl, get this. But yeah,

740
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 6: it's been it's been incredible and we've we've made some

741
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 6: really great, great memories on this trip and just really

742
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:41,400
Speaker 6: incredible people.

743
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:45,280
Speaker 4: What's it been like for you, Drey to see everyone

744
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:47,800
Speaker 4: come together and also meet listeners.

745
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 1: I think it was you who mentioned we should do

746
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:54,759
Speaker 1: it like a retreat or like a girls weekend, and

747
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 1: I was like, hell yeah. But then this came about

748
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:01,279
Speaker 1: like a few weeks later, so maybe this is a

749
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 1: trial run.

750
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:06,359
Speaker 2: And it's actually really great because you.

751
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 1: Understand betrayal, you understand deception and how that can really

752
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:17,320
Speaker 1: fundamentally change your sense of reality and make you question

753
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 1: yourself and the decisions that you made, especially in moments

754
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,959
Speaker 1: of survival and just trying to get through the next day,

755
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,880
Speaker 1: like I just need to wake up, get my clothes on,

756
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 1: and get out the door, and those little things you

757
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 1: guys can relate to on a very specific level.

758
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:38,800
Speaker 2: And so I knew you guys would hit it off.

759
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,839
Speaker 1: This has been such a joy, and I think it's

760
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 1: just a testament to our community and it growing.

761
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:46,960
Speaker 6: It was either going to be this or we were

762
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:49,879
Speaker 6: going to crash Andrea's wedding. I was like, I don't

763
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 6: know if you know, but I'm coming, even if I

764
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 6: got to sit in a little table outside just peek in.

765
00:42:57,560 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 6: She was like, oh no, we're having a whole betrayal table.

766
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 4: I want to talk about the experience of actually living

767
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:08,880
Speaker 4: through what y'all have been through versus the product.

768
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 6: That we see at the end.

769
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 4: You know, what is it in total five hours of

770
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:16,880
Speaker 4: audio or three hours of video that is so different

771
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:21,440
Speaker 4: from what you actually lived through. And so I want

772
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 4: to open it up to y'all to talk about what

773
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 4: was a surprise to you and what was difficult to

774
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 4: see or maybe really rewarding to see, but a little

775
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 4: bit more about what it was like to see the

776
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 4: things you had really gone through turned into a true

777
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 4: crime podcast, a true crime docu series.

778
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 6: I think I could.

779
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 10: Start with that it actually wasn't too bad, because I

780
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 10: have to be honest, nothing beats actually living through it,

781
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:56,239
Speaker 10: so it's almost like you're a little desensitized. But I

782
00:43:56,280 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 10: think the hardest part for me was the recreation of

783
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 10: the scene where Tyler tried to kill himself. He had

784
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 10: called me at the time and I was two and

785
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:15,160
Speaker 10: a half hours away, and so like watching the re enactment,

786
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 10: which I am well aware was dramatized and there was actors,

787
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:26,000
Speaker 10: but like just feeling that again that I could have

788
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 10: lost him, that really messed with me for a little bit.

789
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 6: I think for us it was it was an incredibly

790
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 6: healing experience that I don't think we realized was going

791
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:40,839
Speaker 6: to be what it was even when we watched it

792
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 6: or listened to the week's episode, because like I said,

793
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:45,520
Speaker 6: it's almost like you're listening to someone else's story even

794
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:48,440
Speaker 6: though it is yours. And we would just sit down

795
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 6: afterwards and we'd be like, that is crazy. These questions

796
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,760
Speaker 6: that they think of that just would get you thinking

797
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 6: of things and then we would go on these almost

798
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 6: therapy sessions, you know, our car rides home, because we

799
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:03,399
Speaker 6: went up to Pennsylvania to film, it's about a three

800
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:06,720
Speaker 6: hour drive. These three hour car rides we would spend

801
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:10,400
Speaker 6: having like our own little therapy session, you know. So

802
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:14,400
Speaker 6: for us, you know, we're incredibly thankful to you, because

803
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 6: I think healing started with betrayals. So you know, you

804
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:20,760
Speaker 6: may not have thought that it was going to do anything,

805
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 6: or one people or two people was going to listen

806
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 6: to it, but I can tell you that it's been

807
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 6: instrumental in all of our healing. Completely, I don't know it.

808
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:30,959
Speaker 6: You know you probably feel the same way.

809
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 5: Absolutely.

810
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 4: Has participating in Betrayal in this production changed the way

811
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 4: you think about true crime content, Like when you go

812
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 4: to consume a podcast, watch a podcast, and watch a podcast,

813
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 4: listen to a podcast, or watch something. Has it changed

814
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 4: the way you approach that and think about it.

815
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 5: I know, for me, it definitely has.

816
00:45:55,800 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 10: I grew up watching Dateline twenty twenty true crime. Mom's

817
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 10: been joking all weekend or well however many days we

818
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 10: are now in, but she's been joking this whole time,

819
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 10: Like you know, oh, kids, watch Barney Michaela's watching Dayline.

820
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:14,920
Speaker 6: She wanted to be Keith Morrison. Baby don't.

821
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:20,720
Speaker 10: Yeah. So, you know, growing up as a teen early

822
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:24,320
Speaker 10: twenties all that, you know, I watch these true crime

823
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:26,799
Speaker 10: documentaries and I'm like, oh, come the fuck on, like

824
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 10: you knew, like, don't get out of here, and I

825
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 10: would judge. And now I wouldn't go to social media

826
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 10: and talk about it, but I would think that. And

827
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:41,719
Speaker 10: then as this started to unravel, I was like, oh

828
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 10: my god, people are thinking that about me. And so

829
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 10: now when I watch true crime documentaries or listen to

830
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:54,760
Speaker 10: podcasts like I have, my mindset is so different because

831
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 10: in reality, you guys only get, you know, this tiny

832
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:02,400
Speaker 10: little sliver of what happened.

833
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:03,919
Speaker 5: And on top of.

834
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:12,160
Speaker 10: That, like you're getting all the information, you know, detectives, policemen, judges,

835
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:14,920
Speaker 10: you know, the whole family.

836
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 5: Like everybody's giving stories.

837
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 6: But we didn't have.

838
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 10: That, you know, we were day by day figuring it out.

839
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 10: And so now like when I watch these shows, I

840
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:34,360
Speaker 10: have to remember, like they probably didn't know, they didn't

841
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:38,399
Speaker 10: have all this ready made, you know, little Kraft mac

842
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 10: and cheese cup ready for them. You know, they had

843
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 10: to go out and make the noodles, and so I

844
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:49,799
Speaker 10: think it's just really changed so much of like how

845
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 10: I view other true crime docuseries.

846
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 1: One of the questions I get a lot, were there

847
00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:58,719
Speaker 1: really any red flags any?

848
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 2: Huge part about our project is really.

849
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:06,920
Speaker 1: Explaining that there often are none, because perpetrators like Justin

850
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:13,000
Speaker 1: Joel really good at hiding who they really are. And

851
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:17,400
Speaker 1: so I think when audiences watch true crime and they

852
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 1: have those thoughts, Mikaela, I think it's a form of

853
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:24,560
Speaker 1: safety of like I would see that if it happened

854
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 1: to me, and.

855
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:26,720
Speaker 2: That's often not the case.

856
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 1: And that's why we are so open about like not

857
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:34,280
Speaker 1: knowing because you didn't and why would you even think

858
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:38,280
Speaker 1: that your husband could do what he did? Why would

859
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,880
Speaker 1: your brain go there? So that's a huge part about betrayal.

860
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:46,320
Speaker 6: Ashley put it really good in hers and it became

861
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 6: so clear to me when she said it. She said,

862
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 6: you know, it's like this puzzle and you have all

863
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:54,759
Speaker 6: these pieces and in twenty fifteen you might have got

864
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:57,800
Speaker 6: this red flag that in twenty seventeen you might have

865
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:01,040
Speaker 6: got this, and when you're taking it over a course

866
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:03,240
Speaker 6: of the you know, Justin and I were together seven years.

867
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 6: I don't think you didn't think back to something like, oh,

868
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 6: let me put together with that red flag, you know,

869
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:13,799
Speaker 6: let me start collecting the flags. You know when when

870
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 6: you get to the end, then you're like, oh, and

871
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 6: then the puzzle it becomes it becomes clear, it becomes

872
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:23,279
Speaker 6: a puzzle. But you know, in this moment you have

873
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:24,920
Speaker 6: a blue piece and a red piece and a yellow

874
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 6: piece and nothing matches. And then they start to make

875
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:31,160
Speaker 6: you think that you're crazy for feeling this way. And

876
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 6: I know, for me, justin would you know, do things

877
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:37,319
Speaker 6: to me like if there was something I was bothered by,

878
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:39,840
Speaker 6: you know, by him, it would just be like, well,

879
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 6: you know, if that's the kind of husband you think

880
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:45,480
Speaker 6: I am, maybe we should get divorced. And for anyone

881
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:49,279
Speaker 6: who knew me personally, being a wife was something I

882
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:52,120
Speaker 6: took pride in. I took pride in being a good wife.

883
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:55,879
Speaker 6: I loved being a good wife. And when he would

884
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:58,360
Speaker 6: say those things to me, instantly I would kind of

885
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:02,000
Speaker 6: crawl inside myself and think, think, you are a terrible,

886
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:05,359
Speaker 6: terrible wife. How can you think this about this man

887
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:08,799
Speaker 6: who's great to your kids, provided a good home to you,

888
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:12,759
Speaker 6: gave you this life. And so he would take that

889
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:17,960
Speaker 6: and manipulate it. So there's so much more than just oh,

890
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:20,359
Speaker 6: well you know you missed red flags. Well yeah, there's

891
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:23,440
Speaker 6: red flags now now that you've told me. I mean, like,

892
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 6: you know, I look at photos now that when I

893
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:29,359
Speaker 6: took them, I was just like, oh, these are such

894
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:32,920
Speaker 6: sweet moments, and they make me sick now because I

895
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 6: see them in a different way. It was that was

896
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:37,279
Speaker 6: probably one of the hardest things for the documentary was

897
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:40,319
Speaker 6: to see the photos of him and Tyler hugged up

898
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 6: together that I used to think, we're sweet moments of

899
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 6: just a man loving my kids, you know, like a

900
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:52,359
Speaker 6: father should to now realizing how disgusting they were. So

901
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:54,360
Speaker 6: it's you know, you have to give a little bit

902
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 6: of grace. I think I'm saying way with Mikayla as

903
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:58,400
Speaker 6: now you know, I've read my mouth I don't know

904
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:00,800
Speaker 6: how many times, and now if I'm watching TV, you know,

905
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 6: a documentary, and I'm like and then I like sit back,

906
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 6: and I'm like, wait a minute. You know, I don't

907
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:11,279
Speaker 6: know her story. I don't know his story, you know.

908
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 6: So I think we I think we got to give

909
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:15,839
Speaker 6: people a little bit of grace and realize that in

910
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 6: these moments when you're trying to navigate. You know, there's,

911
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:22,120
Speaker 6: like you Caroline said, there's a part of my story

912
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:23,880
Speaker 6: no one knows as well that I wasn't really allowed

913
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:25,319
Speaker 6: to share, and I don't give a shit about sharing

914
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 6: right now is I was also sued civilly by the

915
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 6: boys parents who found the camera. So while this was

916
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:36,759
Speaker 6: all going on, you know, civil attorney, criminal attorney, divorce attorney.

917
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:41,080
Speaker 6: I lost my home, you know, And you're literally just

918
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 6: going from one thing to another every day of trying

919
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:46,720
Speaker 6: to put out fires and make sure that your children

920
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:49,920
Speaker 6: are still eating and not just only bop tarts, you know.

921
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:52,799
Speaker 6: I mean it's the truth. You just cannot You make

922
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:55,879
Speaker 6: the best decision you can at the moment. And did

923
00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:59,440
Speaker 6: I Did I screw up? Yeah?

924
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:02,279
Speaker 11: I can tell you that first year was autopilot, just

925
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:07,319
Speaker 11: absolute autopilot. I just wanted to get by. I am

926
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:10,800
Speaker 11: at you know, anyone who's posted anything on Reddit or

927
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,360
Speaker 11: anything else. You can't beat me up anymore than I

928
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:17,040
Speaker 11: beat up myself. I have questioned myself. I question everything

929
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:20,960
Speaker 11: about every decision I ever made. You know, there's an

930
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:25,600
Speaker 11: episode called it's essentially the split screen episode Revisionist History,

931
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 11: and you hear my entire twenty five year relationship with

932
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 11: my ex husband in the span of thirty eight minutes.

933
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:36,000
Speaker 11: And I tell you every single thing now in those

934
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 11: thirty eight minutes that now I have a concern about

935
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:41,920
Speaker 11: and I question all the time. And I did that

936
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 11: for that first year, and you don't really know. It's

937
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 11: like the analogy of the frog in the pot. You

938
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 11: don't know that it's boiling until you're out, and I

939
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 11: can see that it's boiling now that I'm out.

940
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:54,800
Speaker 4: I want to talk a little bit more about survival

941
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:57,360
Speaker 4: mode with you, Dre, because that's something we talk about

942
00:52:57,400 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 4: all the time, and to trying to understand and tell

943
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 4: these kind of stories, we often have to tell the

944
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:08,640
Speaker 4: story of that. We have to tell that story of

945
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:11,600
Speaker 4: the survival mode year and all the choices that were

946
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:13,680
Speaker 4: made in that year. But it is so difficult to

947
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:17,080
Speaker 4: convey that experience that you all had. We can't make

948
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:19,879
Speaker 4: a year long podcast, we can't really be in your head.

949
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:23,759
Speaker 4: But can you talk about like the survival brain, the

950
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:29,239
Speaker 4: logic brain, and the ways that we try to make

951
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:32,600
Speaker 4: content that helps people understand that survival mode.

952
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:37,560
Speaker 1: I think one of the first questions I asked you, Stacy,

953
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:41,920
Speaker 1: when I came to visit you, was like when you

954
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:46,160
Speaker 1: would wake up in the morning after everything happened, Like

955
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:51,160
Speaker 1: what was your first thought? Because when something horrible happens

956
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:55,800
Speaker 1: and your life is falling apart, just opening your eyes

957
00:53:55,920 --> 00:54:00,200
Speaker 1: and realizing, no, I'm actually here, this is actually happening,

958
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:03,880
Speaker 1: this is my real life, and I now have to

959
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:06,800
Speaker 1: get up and face the day. And so that's I

960
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:11,120
Speaker 1: remember talking to you about that, and I think it

961
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:15,040
Speaker 1: is important to give people grace and know that when

962
00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:18,160
Speaker 1: this happens, they are literally just trying to get through

963
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 1: their day and make a ton of decisions legally financially,

964
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:27,200
Speaker 1: groceries on the table, like it is really hard. And

965
00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:30,080
Speaker 1: then with space and if you work at it and

966
00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:33,080
Speaker 1: you see a psychologist and you have your community and

967
00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:37,640
Speaker 1: your family, you can slowly transition into the analytical brain

968
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:43,759
Speaker 1: and really sit with what happened, think through how it's

969
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:46,040
Speaker 1: occurring for you. And we just want to show our

970
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:49,840
Speaker 1: audience that those are two different experiences and that the

971
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:54,520
Speaker 1: majority of these individuals are living in survival mode for

972
00:54:55,400 --> 00:55:00,279
Speaker 1: a year two years, you know, and then with time

973
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:04,799
Speaker 1: and healing you can look back and really start to process.

974
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:07,280
Speaker 2: But those are two different states of mind.

975
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:10,960
Speaker 6: Oh yeah. I mean you you wake up and it's just,

976
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:14,520
Speaker 6: you know, life doesn't stop, your bills don't stop, your

977
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 6: work doesn't stop, you know, so you're navigating all this

978
00:55:18,239 --> 00:55:23,640
Speaker 6: stuff while still having to make sound rational decisions, and

979
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:27,080
Speaker 6: you open your eyes and you're like Jesus another you know,

980
00:55:27,160 --> 00:55:30,439
Speaker 6: like it's another day, and all you do is try

981
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:33,960
Speaker 6: to get through to get to bed that night. You know,

982
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:35,799
Speaker 6: I just if I can make it to bed, if

983
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:37,400
Speaker 6: I can just make it to you know, where I

984
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:39,280
Speaker 6: can go to sleep, I'll just go to sleep and

985
00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:41,319
Speaker 6: I'll wake up and it'll be different tomorrow. And then

986
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:43,879
Speaker 6: you wake up and it's another day, and it's just yeah,

987
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:48,160
Speaker 6: it's just but it's a vicious cycle. And living in

988
00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:51,920
Speaker 6: that survivor moment, you know, you don't make the greatest

989
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:54,640
Speaker 6: of decisions. I mean, you just can't. You can't. You

990
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:57,560
Speaker 6: do the best you can with what you have at

991
00:55:57,600 --> 00:55:57,960
Speaker 6: the moment.

992
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:00,840
Speaker 4: I think that's one thing that makes the online comments

993
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:05,160
Speaker 4: feel so unfair and so hard for us. We have

994
00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:07,200
Speaker 4: to track them as part of our job, as though

995
00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:10,000
Speaker 4: we're attracting the comments we get, and some of them

996
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:13,760
Speaker 4: are so personal and so vitriolic, and I think obviously

997
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:16,760
Speaker 4: it says more about the commenter than any of y'all.

998
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:20,759
Speaker 4: So you know, I'm curious how you handle that, because

999
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:23,040
Speaker 4: I think that would make me short circuit.

1000
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:25,959
Speaker 6: At this point, we make it a joke.

1001
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:29,799
Speaker 10: But like somebody at one point made a comment at

1002
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:33,120
Speaker 10: one like on I don't know, TikTok or something and

1003
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:37,160
Speaker 10: said like, oh, that sister of his, she's just so

1004
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:41,839
Speaker 10: conceited and you know, she thinks like she's the shit.

1005
00:56:42,239 --> 00:56:45,680
Speaker 10: And I was like, well, first, you know, yeah, I'm confident,

1006
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:53,359
Speaker 10: but secondly like, okay, you know, not trying to sound ridiculous,

1007
00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:57,080
Speaker 10: but if I was so conceited and you know, didn't

1008
00:56:57,080 --> 00:57:00,279
Speaker 10: care about my brother, he wouldn't have gotten no whole

1009
00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:01,440
Speaker 10: arm tattoo for me.

1010
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:05,600
Speaker 5: So good for you that you thought that.

1011
00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:09,040
Speaker 6: What sit each other messages? I'll be like, how you

1012
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:10,360
Speaker 6: doing today? You can seated bitch?

1013
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:12,799
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1014
00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:15,480
Speaker 10: So you know, now it's like we just turn them

1015
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:19,240
Speaker 10: into jokes and it's just a way to, you know,

1016
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:23,560
Speaker 10: just laugh about it, because you know, hurt people hurt people, and.

1017
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:25,960
Speaker 5: It's nothing we can do.

1018
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:29,959
Speaker 10: I can't help them, but instead we can just laugh

1019
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:33,400
Speaker 10: about it. And I know, Tyler and I even made

1020
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:36,720
Speaker 10: a whole TikTok video addressing a lot of the questions

1021
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:40,160
Speaker 10: and mean comments that we were getting, specifically about our mom,

1022
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:44,160
Speaker 10: and I think that helped a lot clear up a

1023
00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:45,680
Speaker 10: lot of things.

1024
00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:48,400
Speaker 7: Really, about ninety five percent of the comments so on

1025
00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:50,760
Speaker 7: like the stuff I make, are pretty positive, and then

1026
00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:53,880
Speaker 7: there's like the five percent like troll. But to be honest,

1027
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:57,280
Speaker 7: about eighty five ninety percent of the time that troll

1028
00:57:57,400 --> 00:58:00,560
Speaker 7: has about third grade grammar or or you can tell

1029
00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:02,760
Speaker 7: they didn't finish the show because they don't know shit

1030
00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:05,720
Speaker 7: about what's going on and they're just saying whatever. So

1031
00:58:06,640 --> 00:58:09,640
Speaker 7: I just kind of ignore the trolls. If it's something

1032
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:11,800
Speaker 7: that bad, I'll delete the comment, like if it's on

1033
00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:14,040
Speaker 7: my own stuff, just because I don't want like other

1034
00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:16,880
Speaker 7: survivors to see that them to be discouraged. But me

1035
00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:19,400
Speaker 7: and myself, I just tell them, you know, you can

1036
00:58:19,440 --> 00:58:20,320
Speaker 7: go fuck yourself.

1037
00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:20,880
Speaker 3: That's me.

1038
00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:22,040
Speaker 8: I don't care.

1039
00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:28,320
Speaker 6: Yeah, we we have a lot of I don't know

1040
00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:30,280
Speaker 6: if y'all notice, we have a lot of dark humor.

1041
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:33,320
Speaker 6: Humor is what carried us through a lot of this.

1042
00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:37,720
Speaker 6: Some people are uncomfortable with that. But the comments on

1043
00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:41,680
Speaker 6: the podcast really really got me, and I decided when

1044
00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:45,160
Speaker 6: the documentary was gonna come out, that if I had

1045
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:47,400
Speaker 6: to be the martyr you know, in this, and if

1046
00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:50,040
Speaker 6: people had to hate me for his story to get

1047
00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:52,520
Speaker 6: out and for his healing to come, that I was

1048
00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:55,600
Speaker 6: okay taking that, and that I really didn't give a

1049
00:58:55,600 --> 00:58:58,920
Speaker 6: shit because I know my truth and you know, we

1050
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:03,000
Speaker 6: have an incredible really relationship. You know. I know Caroline

1051
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:05,520
Speaker 6: got a lot of shit about, you know, telling her children.

1052
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:08,400
Speaker 6: I think it was out, you know, noble, that you

1053
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:10,520
Speaker 6: made it a point not to lie to your children.

1054
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:13,160
Speaker 6: We have to be honest with our children. We have

1055
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:17,760
Speaker 6: to tell our children things that hard things. I know,

1056
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:19,920
Speaker 6: I questioned myself a lot, did I tell did I

1057
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:22,120
Speaker 6: talk about hard things with my children when they were little?

1058
00:59:22,160 --> 00:59:24,560
Speaker 6: Of you know that people can do these kinds of

1059
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:28,000
Speaker 6: things to you. So I was incredibly proud of you

1060
00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:30,360
Speaker 6: for telling your children and being truthful. I know I

1061
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:34,640
Speaker 6: had a lot of people with my littles that was

1062
00:59:34,720 --> 00:59:38,080
Speaker 6: just like just telling me died. I'm like, I wish

1063
00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:42,400
Speaker 6: he would die. I wish that was the truth, but

1064
00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:45,560
Speaker 6: it's not the truth. And I'm not gonna lie to them.

1065
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:49,160
Speaker 6: You know, I tell them in little bits, but you know,

1066
00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:52,080
Speaker 6: so I mean going back to the comments. But you know,

1067
00:59:52,120 --> 00:59:54,280
Speaker 6: at the end of the day, Yeah, you just have

1068
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:57,360
Speaker 6: to you just kind of have to separate that. But

1069
00:59:57,520 --> 01:00:00,960
Speaker 6: our way of dealing with that is joking, and we're

1070
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:05,320
Speaker 6: we could be pretty nasty, like like tellers. So we're like,

1071
01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:07,800
Speaker 6: they're probably in their mom's basement in a bean bag,

1072
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:11,400
Speaker 6: charity and Cheetos. You know, like we just have to

1073
01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:13,560
Speaker 6: you just have to do it. It is what it is.

1074
01:00:15,080 --> 01:00:19,520
Speaker 11: Yeah, I didn't listen to their advice, and uh, you

1075
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:21,760
Speaker 11: know some of the things that were said. It is

1076
01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:25,160
Speaker 11: just very evident that there's a lot of people who

1077
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:27,560
Speaker 11: clearly have read a manual that I haven't. I mean,

1078
01:00:27,640 --> 01:00:30,480
Speaker 11: whatever the title of that book is that says, Hey,

1079
01:00:30,560 --> 01:00:33,960
Speaker 11: when your high ranking police officer husband blows up your

1080
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:36,360
Speaker 11: lives and reporters are getting ready to come to your door,

1081
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:38,920
Speaker 11: and then he moves out to the family RV, loses

1082
01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:43,080
Speaker 11: his job and relocates, here's what you should do. Is

1083
01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:48,520
Speaker 11: that noble that carries that Amazon Prime. So I didn't

1084
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:51,720
Speaker 11: have that, and I, you know, how to make decisions

1085
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:55,040
Speaker 11: quickly financially, personally, emotionally. I had to make decisions as

1086
01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:57,360
Speaker 11: a parent, and I was doing the best I could

1087
01:00:57,360 --> 01:00:59,680
Speaker 11: with it. I didn't have a three and four year old,

1088
01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:03,120
Speaker 11: so this wasn't like I could somehow make a story

1089
01:01:03,200 --> 01:01:06,560
Speaker 11: up and you know, discuss it like the Toothpaerrier Santa

1090
01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:09,120
Speaker 11: about why Dad didn't live with us anymore he was

1091
01:01:09,160 --> 01:01:12,920
Speaker 11: no longer a police officer, and that we were preparing

1092
01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:14,920
Speaker 11: for reporters to show up at the door. I didn't

1093
01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:17,400
Speaker 11: have the ability to be able to make something up

1094
01:01:17,640 --> 01:01:19,960
Speaker 11: and lie to them or tell a story or dance

1095
01:01:20,080 --> 01:01:22,520
Speaker 11: around it. I had to be very direct, very very

1096
01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:26,600
Speaker 11: very direct, and that's something that was difficult.

1097
01:01:26,720 --> 01:01:27,320
Speaker 5: It was hard.

1098
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:29,880
Speaker 11: It wasn't easy for me by any stretch of the means.

1099
01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:33,480
Speaker 11: And it wasn't easy to have these really blunt discussions

1100
01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:36,280
Speaker 11: with my kids. And I will tell you on a

1101
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:39,680
Speaker 11: different note, you know, we do cope with dark humor.

1102
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:41,760
Speaker 11: We were my son and I were golfing not too

1103
01:01:41,760 --> 01:01:44,280
Speaker 11: long ago before we came on the cruise and he

1104
01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:46,840
Speaker 11: just he hit this ball of country mile and it.

1105
01:01:46,880 --> 01:01:47,560
Speaker 6: Just was gone.

1106
01:01:47,600 --> 01:01:49,240
Speaker 5: And he was like, yep, that ball left me like

1107
01:01:49,280 --> 01:01:49,720
Speaker 5: my dad.

1108
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:54,919
Speaker 11: So I mean, we say sideway stuff all the time,

1109
01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:57,040
Speaker 11: and that's how we cope with it. And that's really

1110
01:01:57,120 --> 01:01:58,800
Speaker 11: dark for a lot of people and hard for people

1111
01:01:58,840 --> 01:02:01,080
Speaker 11: to hear, but it's what we did. And you know,

1112
01:02:01,160 --> 01:02:03,400
Speaker 11: there are a lot of things that occurred in our

1113
01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:06,400
Speaker 11: lives where it was so hard to have these tough

1114
01:02:06,440 --> 01:02:09,600
Speaker 11: discussions with them, but we had to have the discussions

1115
01:02:09,960 --> 01:02:12,520
Speaker 11: in order for us to get through. And having them

1116
01:02:12,560 --> 01:02:15,520
Speaker 11: both say, do not lie to me. If something's going on, Preparius,

1117
01:02:15,640 --> 01:02:16,400
Speaker 11: do not lie to me.

1118
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:17,560
Speaker 6: It was hard.

1119
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:20,640
Speaker 11: It wasn't easy. It was not It was not something

1120
01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:23,440
Speaker 11: that I would wish on anyone. So, you know, for

1121
01:02:23,480 --> 01:02:25,840
Speaker 11: those of you or anyone who you know who does

1122
01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:29,400
Speaker 11: have that manual, tell them I'm proud of them and

1123
01:02:29,440 --> 01:02:32,000
Speaker 11: I'm so grateful that they're able to navigate it a

1124
01:02:32,000 --> 01:02:32,920
Speaker 11: lot better than I did.

1125
01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:33,960
Speaker 5: I did the best I could.

1126
01:02:34,400 --> 01:02:36,560
Speaker 11: And the other thing I'll say about it is that

1127
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:39,600
Speaker 11: there in some of the comments, people were like, I

1128
01:02:39,640 --> 01:02:43,400
Speaker 11: am horrified, you know that she had this discussion with

1129
01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:45,960
Speaker 11: her kids. I'm horrified I had to have the discussion

1130
01:02:46,000 --> 01:02:46,680
Speaker 11: with my kids.

1131
01:02:46,760 --> 01:02:50,080
Speaker 6: Absolutely, let's be horrified at the people who did the crime.

1132
01:02:50,560 --> 01:02:50,760
Speaker 9: Yep.

1133
01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:53,640
Speaker 6: I want to know, let's be horrified exactly.

1134
01:02:53,760 --> 01:02:55,480
Speaker 11: And I do want to say that that you know,

1135
01:02:55,560 --> 01:02:58,040
Speaker 11: Stacy's saying that. I do want to say The part

1136
01:02:58,120 --> 01:03:01,400
Speaker 11: that makes me so sad about some of those comments

1137
01:03:01,960 --> 01:03:05,400
Speaker 11: and some of the feedback that I've received from women

1138
01:03:05,440 --> 01:03:08,680
Speaker 11: who have thanked me for us telling our stories, is

1139
01:03:08,680 --> 01:03:13,040
Speaker 11: that it's comments like those that keep people silent. Yeah,

1140
01:03:13,080 --> 01:03:15,680
Speaker 11: so you are a part of the problem and you

1141
01:03:15,720 --> 01:03:16,960
Speaker 11: are damning the solution.

1142
01:03:18,160 --> 01:03:18,280
Speaker 4: Wo.

1143
01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:20,720
Speaker 5: I like that.

1144
01:03:21,360 --> 01:03:26,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, what advice would y'all give to someone who was

1145
01:03:26,720 --> 01:03:31,800
Speaker 4: considering becoming the subject of a true crime podcast?

1146
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:38,720
Speaker 11: Don't read the comments, I would have to say, don't

1147
01:03:38,720 --> 01:03:39,360
Speaker 11: be afraid.

1148
01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:45,440
Speaker 10: As I started seeing messages that Tyler was getting and

1149
01:03:45,560 --> 01:03:48,320
Speaker 10: I was getting, and Mom was getting, and the betrayal

1150
01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:53,280
Speaker 10: podcasts were getting, you know, I'm like, Wow, if we

1151
01:03:53,320 --> 01:03:56,960
Speaker 10: all would have lived in fear, these people may not

1152
01:03:57,120 --> 01:04:00,360
Speaker 10: have ever had that and may not have ever come forward, Ford,

1153
01:04:00,840 --> 01:04:04,480
Speaker 10: may not have ever said their peace. And that's really sad.

1154
01:04:05,960 --> 01:04:09,240
Speaker 10: And so don't be afraid. Tell your story. Scream it

1155
01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:13,040
Speaker 10: from the mountaintops. You know, it's better to do it

1156
01:04:13,080 --> 01:04:14,680
Speaker 10: that way instead of living fear.

1157
01:04:15,600 --> 01:04:17,800
Speaker 7: People might say stuff online, but like I said, that's

1158
01:04:17,800 --> 01:04:21,400
Speaker 7: like the very odd select few I can tell you,

1159
01:04:21,480 --> 01:04:25,280
Speaker 7: not a damn person face to face has made fun

1160
01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:26,600
Speaker 7: of me for what has happened to me. And I

1161
01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:30,440
Speaker 7: don't think anybody has the balls too, because they know

1162
01:04:30,520 --> 01:04:33,840
Speaker 7: that's not right. So really, I don't think that's something

1163
01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:34,760
Speaker 7: you have to worry about.

1164
01:04:39,160 --> 01:04:41,480
Speaker 1: Let's take another quick break and we'll come back to

1165
01:04:41,520 --> 01:04:42,640
Speaker 1: finish the conversation.

1166
01:04:52,240 --> 01:04:55,400
Speaker 4: We wanted to take some audience questions. Are there any

1167
01:04:55,400 --> 01:04:59,440
Speaker 4: audience questions? We have a few that have been brought in.

1168
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:02,959
Speaker 6: Oh, have one, yes, So.

1169
01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:05,640
Speaker 12: This is more for Carolyn. I listened to the whole

1170
01:05:05,680 --> 01:05:12,040
Speaker 12: podcast and CSPD is probably the second biggest betrayal. How

1171
01:05:12,160 --> 01:05:15,920
Speaker 12: can they get away with it? And it's not just Joel,

1172
01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:19,760
Speaker 12: it's the other people in the department, and they came

1173
01:05:19,960 --> 01:05:23,160
Speaker 12: forward with it and they still I mean, how it

1174
01:05:23,240 --> 01:05:25,000
Speaker 12: got to the point where he was able to retire

1175
01:05:25,040 --> 01:05:27,080
Speaker 12: even now? How do you even get past that?

1176
01:05:27,520 --> 01:05:30,520
Speaker 11: I wish I had a solid answer for that, and

1177
01:05:30,080 --> 01:05:33,720
Speaker 11: I looked over at Andrea when I when you were

1178
01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:37,800
Speaker 11: asking that question. There's so much more to the story

1179
01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:39,800
Speaker 11: that you would just fall out if you knew.

1180
01:05:41,440 --> 01:05:42,160
Speaker 5: I can tell you.

1181
01:05:43,040 --> 01:05:46,120
Speaker 11: One of the scariest things on the internal Affairs tapes

1182
01:05:46,360 --> 01:05:48,959
Speaker 11: without broaching legal.

1183
01:05:48,640 --> 01:05:52,240
Speaker 5: Concern is that a very very high.

1184
01:05:52,200 --> 01:05:57,160
Speaker 11: Ranking female in the police department actually turned my ex

1185
01:05:57,240 --> 01:06:01,240
Speaker 11: husband in for sexual harassment and nothing was done.

1186
01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:05,800
Speaker 5: It's sickening to hear. It's really really sad.

1187
01:06:06,360 --> 01:06:08,400
Speaker 12: We can move to any place we want in the country.

1188
01:06:08,440 --> 01:06:10,040
Speaker 12: That's one place we would never move to.

1189
01:06:11,760 --> 01:06:12,800
Speaker 5: It is beautiful, though.

1190
01:06:14,440 --> 01:06:18,720
Speaker 13: Hi, I have a question for Stacy, how has your

1191
01:06:18,800 --> 01:06:20,720
Speaker 13: definition of trust changed?

1192
01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:24,880
Speaker 6: I trust very few. I work on that a lot.

1193
01:06:25,280 --> 01:06:27,000
Speaker 6: I know that I have a really filthy mouth. I

1194
01:06:27,000 --> 01:06:29,600
Speaker 6: call myself a spicy Christian. I love Jesus, but a

1195
01:06:29,640 --> 01:06:33,200
Speaker 6: cuss and it's the truth. It's something that I think

1196
01:06:33,280 --> 01:06:37,440
Speaker 6: I have had to pray about because I don't trust people.

1197
01:06:38,440 --> 01:06:40,320
Speaker 6: And it's really hard for me because I am such

1198
01:06:40,320 --> 01:06:43,720
Speaker 6: a trust I was such a trusting person. But you know,

1199
01:06:43,760 --> 01:06:45,920
Speaker 6: when people tell me things, most of the time, I'm like,

1200
01:06:47,120 --> 01:06:50,760
Speaker 6: you're lying or you know. I always kind of think,

1201
01:06:50,880 --> 01:06:53,960
Speaker 6: like what next, you know, I analyze kind of what

1202
01:06:54,000 --> 01:06:57,480
Speaker 6: people say and stuff. It's hard. It's hard to ever

1203
01:06:57,520 --> 01:06:59,840
Speaker 6: trust somebody again. I mean, you lay next to somebody

1204
01:06:59,840 --> 01:07:03,200
Speaker 6: for seven years that you think you know, and you

1205
01:07:03,280 --> 01:07:05,440
Speaker 6: roll over one day and they're completely someone that you

1206
01:07:05,640 --> 01:07:10,680
Speaker 6: had no idea, you know. So it's hard. I think

1207
01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:13,280
Speaker 6: someday there'll be somebody that'll come along, maybe, you know,

1208
01:07:13,520 --> 01:07:15,960
Speaker 6: I pray for money instead of a husband. These days,

1209
01:07:16,680 --> 01:07:19,040
Speaker 6: I really would just rather have money, so I'm going cruises.

1210
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:26,120
Speaker 6: But yeah, you know, it's a daily task to work on.

1211
01:07:28,120 --> 01:07:28,320
Speaker 1: HI.

1212
01:07:28,520 --> 01:07:30,040
Speaker 13: First of all, I want to say thank you for

1213
01:07:30,120 --> 01:07:33,760
Speaker 13: coming out here and sharing your story. It's very, very courageous.

1214
01:07:34,200 --> 01:07:37,280
Speaker 13: But I want us to ask the siblings, So, being

1215
01:07:37,360 --> 01:07:41,280
Speaker 13: so young and naive to how evil people can be,

1216
01:07:42,320 --> 01:07:45,640
Speaker 13: have you ever been guilt tripped for cutting your father

1217
01:07:45,760 --> 01:07:47,720
Speaker 13: off or no longer speaking to your father?

1218
01:07:48,280 --> 01:07:49,560
Speaker 6: Has anybody ever said.

1219
01:07:49,360 --> 01:07:51,720
Speaker 5: Oh, give them a second chance to your father, et.

1220
01:07:51,680 --> 01:07:57,840
Speaker 8: Cetera, et cetera, only in the comments of Spotify.

1221
01:07:59,240 --> 01:08:02,560
Speaker 9: Yeah, I think I like what people don't realize is

1222
01:08:03,360 --> 01:08:07,480
Speaker 9: like our dad was a funny human being and we

1223
01:08:07,600 --> 01:08:10,280
Speaker 9: liked being around him. So when it first all happened,

1224
01:08:10,400 --> 01:08:13,360
Speaker 9: like my brother and I were calling him up and

1225
01:08:14,080 --> 01:08:16,639
Speaker 9: asking all these sorts of questions, and then it came

1226
01:08:16,680 --> 01:08:19,200
Speaker 9: to the point where like he didn't come to my

1227
01:08:19,280 --> 01:08:21,920
Speaker 9: high school graduation, and he didn't come to this and

1228
01:08:21,960 --> 01:08:24,439
Speaker 9: that and this. So I was like, if he wasn't

1229
01:08:24,439 --> 01:08:26,760
Speaker 9: going to come to the big events, he's not going

1230
01:08:26,840 --> 01:08:28,439
Speaker 9: to come to the daily events.

1231
01:08:28,479 --> 01:08:31,040
Speaker 6: And so then it's like, why worth trying?

1232
01:08:33,880 --> 01:08:34,040
Speaker 9: HI?

1233
01:08:34,720 --> 01:08:35,759
Speaker 6: This is for Stacy.

1234
01:08:35,840 --> 01:08:38,879
Speaker 14: This is not really a question, it's more of a comment.

1235
01:08:39,080 --> 01:08:40,720
Speaker 14: I just want to tell you that I think you

1236
01:08:40,800 --> 01:08:44,200
Speaker 14: were a leacing mother. My mom did not believe me,

1237
01:08:45,320 --> 01:08:50,040
Speaker 14: and when I watched the episode, I was screaming at

1238
01:08:50,040 --> 01:08:51,240
Speaker 14: the TV because I was like.

1239
01:08:51,360 --> 01:08:53,960
Speaker 6: Yes, Mama, yes you go.

1240
01:08:54,520 --> 01:08:57,080
Speaker 14: So I just want to tell you, thank you, thank

1241
01:08:57,160 --> 01:08:57,559
Speaker 14: you for.

1242
01:08:57,640 --> 01:09:03,920
Speaker 6: Being thank you for that, thank you for that. I

1243
01:09:03,960 --> 01:09:09,200
Speaker 6: appreciate that. Yeah, I can't imagine not believing my children.

1244
01:09:09,200 --> 01:09:11,920
Speaker 6: I mean, people gave me shit online like what took

1245
01:09:11,920 --> 01:09:14,280
Speaker 6: her so long to leave? I was like, shit, it

1246
01:09:14,400 --> 01:09:19,840
Speaker 6: happened on a Saturday. I filed for doors on Tuesday, like,

1247
01:09:20,200 --> 01:09:24,000
Speaker 6: with no proof. No, the abuse had not even come out.

1248
01:09:24,080 --> 01:09:26,559
Speaker 6: He had not even come forward yet, and I was

1249
01:09:26,720 --> 01:09:30,160
Speaker 6: just like, that's some whack ass shit. That's not happening

1250
01:09:30,240 --> 01:09:32,360
Speaker 6: in my house. We can file for divorce. It was

1251
01:09:32,520 --> 01:09:35,280
Speaker 6: three days that I was just like I was willing

1252
01:09:35,320 --> 01:09:37,679
Speaker 6: to give everything up. And it was never about the money.

1253
01:09:38,000 --> 01:09:39,920
Speaker 6: It was never about the nice house we lived in.

1254
01:09:39,960 --> 01:09:42,599
Speaker 6: I didn't give a crap if you worked at sheets. Yeah,

1255
01:09:42,680 --> 01:09:44,960
Speaker 6: you know. It was three days before I was just like,

1256
01:09:45,439 --> 01:09:48,400
Speaker 6: you know, I'm believing what I'm being shown, right, now

1257
01:09:49,120 --> 01:09:49,320
Speaker 6: you know.

1258
01:09:50,000 --> 01:09:54,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, our time is over, and I wish we

1259
01:09:54,360 --> 01:09:57,360
Speaker 4: could stay talking in front of this group because it

1260
01:09:57,400 --> 01:10:01,880
Speaker 4: feels really, really wonderful to be here and to have

1261
01:10:02,040 --> 01:10:03,200
Speaker 4: this out in the public.

1262
01:10:03,360 --> 01:10:04,360
Speaker 6: It feels really special.

1263
01:10:04,439 --> 01:10:05,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you guys for coming.

1264
01:10:06,080 --> 01:10:08,879
Speaker 1: This show means so much to everyone here on stage

1265
01:10:09,160 --> 01:10:10,360
Speaker 1: and it's been a joy.

1266
01:10:10,479 --> 01:10:11,719
Speaker 2: So thank you so much for coming.

1267
01:10:12,240 --> 01:10:13,880
Speaker 5: Thank you, Thank you guys.

1268
01:10:17,160 --> 01:10:18,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, I to good.

1269
01:10:18,200 --> 01:10:20,160
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening.

1270
01:10:20,400 --> 01:10:22,640
Speaker 1: A special thank you to the listeners who came with

1271
01:10:22,720 --> 01:10:23,719
Speaker 1: us on the cruise.

1272
01:10:24,200 --> 01:10:25,719
Speaker 2: Meeting all of you is such a delight.

1273
01:10:26,200 --> 01:10:29,479
Speaker 1: Thank you to iHeart and Virgin Voyages, and as always,

1274
01:10:29,920 --> 01:10:31,320
Speaker 1: thank you to our storytellers.

1275
01:10:32,479 --> 01:10:36,200
Speaker 2: On the next episode of Betrayal Weekly, this was.

1276
01:10:36,160 --> 01:10:38,240
Speaker 15: My best friend. This was somebody who was in my

1277
01:10:38,280 --> 01:10:41,519
Speaker 15: house every single day. This is somebody who I told

1278
01:10:41,760 --> 01:10:46,400
Speaker 15: all my secrets to. She did this because she wanted to.

1279
01:10:47,439 --> 01:10:48,920
Speaker 15: She did this because.

1280
01:10:48,600 --> 01:10:49,800
Speaker 6: She likes to manipulate.

1281
01:10:50,439 --> 01:10:52,519
Speaker 15: She did this because she likes the control.

1282
01:10:58,120 --> 01:10:59,799
Speaker 1: If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal

1283
01:10:59,800 --> 01:11:02,839
Speaker 1: Ta or want to tell us your betrayal story, email

1284
01:11:02,920 --> 01:11:07,200
Speaker 1: us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal Pod

1285
01:11:07,520 --> 01:11:11,080
Speaker 1: at gmail dot com, or follow us on Instagram at

1286
01:11:11,120 --> 01:11:15,280
Speaker 1: Betrayal Pod. You can also connect with me on Instagram

1287
01:11:15,360 --> 01:11:19,839
Speaker 1: at It's Andrea Gunning. To access our newsletter, view additional content,

1288
01:11:20,040 --> 01:11:23,400
Speaker 1: and connect with the Betrayal community. Join our substack at

1289
01:11:23,400 --> 01:11:25,360
Speaker 1: Betrayal dot substack dot com.

1290
01:11:25,760 --> 01:11:27,240
Speaker 2: We're grateful for your support.

1291
01:11:27,760 --> 01:11:30,000
Speaker 1: One way to show support is by subscribing to our

1292
01:11:30,000 --> 01:11:32,720
Speaker 1: show on Apple Podcasts and don't forget to rate and

1293
01:11:32,720 --> 01:11:36,240
Speaker 1: review Betrayal five star reviews go a long way. A

1294
01:11:36,240 --> 01:11:39,800
Speaker 1: big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is

1295
01:11:39,840 --> 01:11:42,799
Speaker 1: a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment

1296
01:11:42,800 --> 01:11:44,320
Speaker 1: Group and partnership.

1297
01:11:43,760 --> 01:11:44,880
Speaker 2: With iHeart Podcasts.

1298
01:11:45,439 --> 01:11:48,479
Speaker 1: The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fasin,

1299
01:11:49,040 --> 01:11:53,040
Speaker 1: hosted and produced by Me Andrea Gunning, written and produced

1300
01:11:53,080 --> 01:11:58,040
Speaker 1: by Monique Leboard, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers

1301
01:11:58,080 --> 01:12:03,080
Speaker 1: are Caitlin Golden, Olivia Hewes, and Kristin Melcury. Casting support

1302
01:12:03,120 --> 01:12:06,439
Speaker 1: from Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and

1303
01:12:06,560 --> 01:12:07,480
Speaker 1: Jessica Krincheck.

1304
01:12:08,320 --> 01:12:12,160
Speaker 2: Audio editing and mixing by Matt del Vechio. Additional audio

1305
01:12:12,280 --> 01:12:13,679
Speaker 2: editing by Tanner Robbins.

1306
01:12:14,320 --> 01:12:19,120
Speaker 1: Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Baines Music Library provided by

1307
01:12:19,120 --> 01:12:19,920
Speaker 1: mybe Music.

1308
01:12:21,000 --> 01:12:22,639
Speaker 2: And for more podcasts from iHeart

1309
01:12:22,800 --> 01:12:26,200
Speaker 1: Visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

1310
01:12:26,200 --> 01:12:30,160
Speaker 1: your podcasts.