1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:03,600 Speaker 1: Body times, but Joseph's gotten. 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:12,640 Speaker 2: More twenty eight years. Twenty eight that's a long time. 3 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 2: It's almost three decades, almost three decades of not knowing 4 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 2: who you know, you know me. I'll never bite on 5 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 2: the idea of why, because I don't know that that's 6 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:38,280 Speaker 2: even measurable. I don't know that that's even something that 7 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:43,560 Speaker 2: we could begin to assess. But it's been almost three 8 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 2: decades since the six year old girl was found murdered 9 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 2: in the basement of her parents' home. There's still many 10 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 2: questions other than why. I think probably things that are 11 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 2: more salient, like the who who did this? Because whoever 12 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 2: they are, they were an absolute lost. We're going to 13 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:27,479 Speaker 2: revisit this case once again, the Jean Benet homicide. I'm 14 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 2: Jesseph Scott Morgan, and this is Bodybags Dave. I had 15 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 2: fired off an article to you that was published by BuzzFeed, 16 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 2: and I found it interesting. In the wake of in 17 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 2: You and I in the first episode had already talked 18 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 2: about how we've heard about this case for so long. 19 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 2: I think both of us had to be druck kicking 20 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 2: and screaming in front of the televisions to watch. To 21 00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 2: watch the documentary, this is not something that we would 22 00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 2: have necessarily chosen to do, because it's just we live 23 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 2: it day in and day out. Neither you nor I 24 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:09,959 Speaker 2: spent our time watching true crop stuff. But I think 25 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 2: that we were compelled to do this, you know, just 26 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 2: to try to understand, you know, maybe another view and 27 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 2: trying to get an idea as to what perhaps what 28 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 2: new information had been developed. I don't know that there's 29 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:34,239 Speaker 2: necessarily new information. I think that it's a re examination 30 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:39,920 Speaker 2: of what could be, and perhaps that's the most hopeful 31 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 2: thing in all of this. 32 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 3: I watched it for the same reason Joe. I wasn't 33 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 3: planning on it. I was not planning on watching it. 34 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 3: I felt like the reason we can't solve it is 35 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 3: because they messed it up by being law enforcement, messed 36 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 3: it up from the very beginning, and that prevents solving 37 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 3: the case. Yeah, and I still after watching this, still 38 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 3: feel the same way. But I really watched it because 39 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 3: I am so jaded and I have a certain way 40 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 3: of looking at things, and nothing you say is going 41 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 3: to change the kind of thing. I've tried to change 42 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 3: from that attitude. I used to have that all the time, 43 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 3: and I've tried changing that attitude of well, let me see, Okay. 44 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 3: You say, you know there's an inspector here with a 45 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 3: great track record who claims he believes there was an 46 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 3: intruder that came into the Ramsey home, and I think 47 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 3: I'll leave it at that because he thinks there's evidence 48 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 3: proving that somebody came into that home. My problem with 49 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 3: that is you've got a six year old child who 50 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 3: was murdered, you have a note, a ransom note written 51 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 3: after she was dead. You leave the body behind, but 52 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 3: leave the ransom note, and the ransom note is actually 53 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 3: no good when they find the body so threatening if 54 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 3: you don't do exactly what we say when we say 55 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 3: it that we're going to kill your baby, and the 56 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 3: baby's dead in the house, you know, it makes no sense. 57 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 3: If if if jean Mine Ramsey had been murdered and 58 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 3: removed from the home and a ransom note was left behind, 59 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 3: then you might have my attention, you know, in terms 60 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 3: of believing what else you want to add to it, 61 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 3: But I believe there might be some truth in that. 62 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 3: You could prove an intruder came into the house. You 63 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:29,920 Speaker 3: could prove an intruder came into your house last night, 64 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 3: Joe I could show how that back window at your 65 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 3: house that I've never seen was opened, and that there's 66 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 3: a footprint right over here, and somehow, you know, I 67 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 3: can go into my garage. You know what I found 68 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:45,600 Speaker 3: in my garage, Joe, what's up in the bricks in 69 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 3: It's a garage. It's actual garage. It's not like a 70 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 3: closed in room or anything else. Although it could be 71 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 3: a gun, a nine millimeter gun pistol hidden in my house, 72 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 3: in my bricks, Okay, just down in the cinder block. 73 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 3: Somebody put it there. I don't know who or why, 74 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 3: but I found it. 75 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 2: Holy smokes. 76 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 3: So I didn't put it there. But if you know, 77 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 3: if I was to be investigated and they saw that, 78 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 3: oh what the what in the world, Dave's got a 79 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 3: hidden gun? 80 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: No? I did not. 81 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 2: I'm taking notes. 82 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, go ahead, take notes. I'm saying it right now 83 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 3: on the show because, believe me, it scared me. 84 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: But I guess my. 85 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 3: Whole point is that you can The detective says he 86 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 3: believed somebody broke into that home and did it in 87 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:29,160 Speaker 3: this window, in this fashion, and it was downstairs in 88 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:32,159 Speaker 3: the train room and all this, and even though you 89 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 3: can make me believe that even though physics will prove 90 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 3: that a baseball cannot curve in mid air. I can 91 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 3: throw a curveball. I believe somebody could crawl through that window. 92 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:47,679 Speaker 3: I just don't believe they did, right. 93 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, And that that's the you know, you think about 94 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:54,359 Speaker 2: access and going back to the one that you know, 95 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 2: one of the things that that mister Ramsey has always 96 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:58,600 Speaker 2: talked about is that he had had to knock that 97 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 2: glass out because he forgot his keys. And that's that's 98 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 2: that's talked about, you know, in the in the documentary 99 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 2: that you know you can see on Netflix, that he 100 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:11,679 Speaker 2: had had to knock that window out and for whatever reason, 101 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 2: it had never gotten repaired. Uh, there was still glass shards, 102 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 2: you know, that were visible. And of course this this 103 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 2: you know, the suitcase that was found immediately adjacent there 104 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 2: that had dirt on top of a deposition of dirt. 105 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 2: I've had many questions about that as far as how 106 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:37,480 Speaker 2: well was let's see, with what care was that suitcase treated? 107 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:42,279 Speaker 2: You know during that period of time? Uh were how 108 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 2: careful were they because you know, just the crumsing image 109 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 2: that you can see, you see loose dirt sitting on 110 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:51,719 Speaker 2: top of it. Was that soil sample that was on 111 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 2: top of that. Was that consistent with maybe that kind 112 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 2: of loamy soil that you have adjacent to a home 113 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 2: that at is not necessarily native to that area, Like 114 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 2: if you go out to Low's or home depot or 115 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 2: wherever you get your garden supplies, that stuff that comes 116 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 2: in bags that you you know, that you churn into 117 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 2: your soil in order to create, you know, a flower 118 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 2: garden or whatever, is at the point of origin because 119 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 2: that stuff is not necessarily native to Boulder. Or was 120 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 2: the soil that they found there was it? Did they 121 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 2: do did they do a geological assessment of that soil 122 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 2: because there are people and trace evidence that can do that, 123 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 2: And then what type of footprint or shoe print may 124 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 2: have been there? And how well did they document that? 125 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 2: I think that those are all very important questions. You know, 126 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 2: early on in going back to this article from BuzzFeed, 127 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 2: you know the she kind of made up an obvious 128 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 2: statement in this and I don't she talked about the 129 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 2: the I guess the anger that was directed at the parents, 130 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 2: you know, throughout this process of the early investigation, and 131 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 2: that there was I'm putting words into her mouth, this 132 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 2: is not necessarily coming from her. But you know, speculatively, 133 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 2: you know, people are looking for someone to blame in 134 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 2: a case like this, because this little girl was taken 135 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 2: to heart by the United States. The people that the 136 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 2: viewers that were out there there were just eating this 137 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 2: stuff up and they do, you know, want answers. I 138 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 2: think that most reasonable people would, and so that anger 139 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 2: is directed back. And of course this goes along with 140 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 2: what we've talked about in the past, hasn't it. You know, 141 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 2: you always look at the people in the intimate circle 142 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,680 Speaker 2: of the victim and who has access, opportunity and motive, 143 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 2: you know, to facilitate her to pull something off. In 144 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 2: this case, you just take that template and apply to 145 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 2: this access an opportunity way. You think about people that 146 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 2: are that have access to her, you know, who could 147 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 2: have had had the knowledge that she was in that house. 148 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:08,839 Speaker 2: The opportunity that goes to time, motive, don't know And 149 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:13,199 Speaker 2: you know, as Nancy always says, she's like our yoda, 150 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 2: I guess to a certain de you know, And Nancy, 151 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:20,319 Speaker 2: you know, just got you don't have to plan motive. 152 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 2: You don't have to prove motive in court, you know, 153 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 2: And she's She's right, You don't but it gives investigators, uh, 154 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 2: an indication of who might be involved, not the why, 155 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 2: but who what, what's the motivation behind, you know, wanting 156 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 2: to rid the world of a six year old child 157 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 2: who seemingly, you know, I mean, is is a good kid. 158 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 2: And you know, I don't know how you would make 159 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 2: that assessment of six year old I guess you could, 160 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 2: you know, you you know, people say, well, a child 161 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:52,719 Speaker 2: is brady, or a child is sweet, or you know, 162 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 2: little angel on ours or you know, the devil incarnate, 163 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 2: but you know, you don't really, you don't really know 164 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:00,679 Speaker 2: a lot about a child when there's six years old, 165 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 2: because certainly children's personalities change. But by all measure, she 166 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 2: was a sweet child. I don't know that my opinion 167 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 2: has necessarily changed that much, not that I necessarily formed 168 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 2: a complete opinion about the case. And a lot of 169 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:31,839 Speaker 2: that goes to the absence of forensic evidence, because that's 170 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 2: where I dance. I question. I think more what the 171 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 2: police did or didn't do. Rather, that's really you know, 172 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 2: where where my assessment comes from. As far as being 173 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 2: able to get a feel for the Ramses. You know, 174 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:55,079 Speaker 2: mister Ramsey has always come across as he's not necessarily 175 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 2: a cold fish. But he works in a world of 176 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 2: numbers and is and I don't expect him to still, 177 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 2: after all these years, to be running about, you know, 178 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 2: rending his clothes and pulling his hair out and you know, 179 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 2: screaming to the heavens. You know, he didn't do that 180 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 2: early on. I mean, he showed some emotion. He cried 181 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:19,559 Speaker 2: and that sort of thing. As far as Patsy goes 182 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 2: uh hard to say. I think that she in her 183 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 2: own way, she she's she was a very driven person herself, 184 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 2: and she's certainly committed to to having Jean Benet out 185 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 2: on the stage. I think that to a certain degree. 186 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 2: And certain people who have talked about this that you know, 187 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 2: Patsy had lived this life of where up in West Virginia. 188 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 2: You know, she had been been a beauty queen up there, 189 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 2: and maybe she was vicariously living through through her daughter, 190 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 2: six year old daughter. But beyond that, I can't really 191 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:01,319 Speaker 2: make it a assessment of her. 192 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:01,719 Speaker 1: Now. 193 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 2: I've met John Ramsey, you know, I've spoken with him, 194 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 2: and he was very obliging gentlemen. He was friendly. You know, 195 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 2: I didn't spend enough time with him to say that, 196 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,439 Speaker 2: you know, he's a warm soul or anything like that. 197 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 2: But I did spend time with him on set and 198 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 2: talk directly to him about DNA evidence and talked about 199 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 2: what had happened at the scene during that period of time. 200 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:28,679 Speaker 2: We didn't go into a lot of the detail because 201 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 2: you know, on these shows, you don't have, particularly if 202 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 2: you've got a big panel, you don't have like an 203 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 2: exhaustive amount of time, you know, like you do in 204 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 2: a documentary to go into great detail. And you know, 205 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 2: I think that that the people are persons that were 206 00:12:53,160 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 2: involved in this knew John Ramsey very very well. I 207 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 2: will say that they have to if if you were 208 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 2: to connect him with this very personal information about his 209 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 2: bonus that note access to this home, understanding the layout 210 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 2: of this home, there's no other kind of conclusion you 211 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 2: can kind of arrive at because somebody didn't just like 212 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:24,319 Speaker 2: blindly walk through this house. And all of these things 213 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 2: fall into place, and then the leaving behind of the 214 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 2: kidnap victims, you know, deceased remains at that point in time. 215 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 2: They know John Ramsey, they know him very well, and 216 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:41,719 Speaker 2: I guess that that leads us all the way back. 217 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 2: It's kind of circular, you know it leads us all 218 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 2: the way back, all the way back to who. And 219 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 2: I think that list is very very short. And that's 220 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 2: one of the surprising bits to this when you begin 221 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 2: to think about this kind of geographic isolation that this 222 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 2: family experienced as a result of having not lived there 223 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 2: for a long long time. They didn't have this huge 224 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:08,599 Speaker 2: network of friends that you know, extended all over the 225 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 2: place in Colorado. Back in Atlanta, they would have, but 226 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 2: you know, you didn't. There was very few people that 227 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 2: they actually had data to contact with, and you didn't 228 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 2: have time enough to develop develop a you know, a 229 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 2: relationship with a lot of people. So that list is 230 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 2: very short, particularly as that applies to Boulder Day. 231 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 3: Interesting that while you have this supposed kidnap and nine 232 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 3: to one one call before six am, that they have 233 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 3: friends air quotes friends that are there providing support in 234 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 3: the home that morning, the day after Christmas. 235 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:49,359 Speaker 1: And I was thinking. 236 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 3: About that from my perspective, I would not want anyone 237 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 3: in my home. 238 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 1: No, I'd want police. 239 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 3: Here's what we know, get it, you know, And granted 240 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 3: that's my way of thinking, I also know we apply 241 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 3: these things and what happens to how would I have 242 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 3: dealt with this and we kind of project ourselves into 243 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 3: the situation, and as people who cover these stories, I 244 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 3: analyze everybody's behavior, from the police to the victims, to 245 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 3: the suspects. I look at all of that and none 246 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 3: of this makes sense. But when you add in, we 247 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 3: were told of the strangulation, that she was strangled. That's 248 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 3: what we were as the media, as the public, we 249 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 3: were told. There was not a lot said about the 250 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 3: other injuries that she suffered that could have been fatal. 251 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 3: We weren't told of those, which makes me wonder why 252 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 3: were we not made aware of this? On top of that, 253 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 3: did you know there's eyewitnesses involved in this? 254 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 2: No, No, I didn't do. 255 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 3: Scott Gibbons is a neighbor. He claimed around midnight, while 256 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 3: looking from his kitchen window, he saw the kitchen of 257 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 3: the Ramsey residence to be lit up with lights on 258 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 3: dim neighbors Melody Stan. Our neighbor. Melody Stan reported that 259 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 3: she was awoken shortly after midnight by the sound of 260 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 3: a child's scream coming from the Ramsey residence. So we 261 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 3: have two neighbors that are turning on lights and hearing 262 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 3: a scream in the Ramsey residence around midnight. If you 263 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 3: can hear that across the street, Joe, you could certainly 264 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 3: hear it in the house. If an intruder breaks into 265 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 3: that house and kills John Bena Ramsey and that scream 266 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 3: is heard at a neighbor's home, You're going to tell 267 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 3: me that nobody inside the house heard it? 268 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, you would think so. Who would be that numb 269 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 2: to it that they could not have heard it from 270 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 2: within the house. And the characterization of screams are they 271 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 2: merely screams or is it some kind of vocalization of something, 272 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 2: you know, like oh my god, oh my god? 273 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 1: Or have you ever heard of scared scream? 274 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:08,159 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I have. 275 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:09,479 Speaker 1: Actually it's different, isn't it. 276 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 2: Yeah it is. It's Uh, it's got this this kind 277 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:18,680 Speaker 2: of haunting pitch to it. And you know, people can 278 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 2: be surprised by things, and that is a scare as well. 279 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 2: But I've you know, I've I've actually been in contact 280 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 2: with with on on scenes with close relatives that roll 281 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:42,239 Speaker 2: up and and a body has been found, and you 282 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 2: hear that that sound that emanates from a mother's mouth 283 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,880 Speaker 2: when she finds out her son's been killed, and it 284 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 2: is that it is that terrible, high pitched noise. It's 285 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 2: something you never forget, and I've heard a lot of 286 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 2: them over the years, just in those circumstances alone. So yeah, 287 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 2: and that is that is part and parcel of all this. 288 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:16,119 Speaker 2: You you think about what went on with Jean Benet 289 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:18,440 Speaker 2: and some of the things that people don't really talk 290 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 2: about that came out in this documentary and they use 291 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 2: the term sexual assault, is that she, you know, Jean 292 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 2: Benet was penetrated with something that I think that one 293 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 2: of their suppositions is that it was part of the paintstick. 294 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 1: Or that was later used as the Yeah. 295 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that that's that's a big tail here, because 296 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 2: it's one thing for an individual to take the life 297 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:51,919 Speaker 2: of a six year old, but to sexually assault a child. 298 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,639 Speaker 2: And I'll tell you, I'll tell you, you know, with the 299 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:58,639 Speaker 2: autopsy report, one of the things if if folks that 300 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:00,919 Speaker 2: are listening to my voice, if you'll think about an 301 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 2: old fashioned clock face, it's weird. Have we have say 302 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 2: old fashioned clockface, but the clock face you know, uh 303 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 2: one through twelve, right, So, and this is how we 304 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 2: demonstrate things in forensic pathology. Forensic pathologists use clock face 305 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 2: all the time in order to orient people. So and 306 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 2: in the autopsy report itself, they talk about this insulted 307 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 2: area at her vaginal opening that's at the seven o'clock position, 308 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 2: and there's a bit of hemorrhage there that was obvious, 309 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 2: you know, obvious two to the to the m E 310 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 2: or the the forensic pathologists when they were doing uh, 311 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 2: doing the examination. And this gives you an idea that 312 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 2: there is something going on here. They knew that and then. 313 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 2: And that's something that you know, I take it for 314 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,360 Speaker 2: granted because you know, my my students every semester view 315 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:13,159 Speaker 2: jumping as autopsy report, every single semester. I use it 316 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 2: when I teach the six year old deaths. So they 317 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:18,640 Speaker 2: have to review it, they have to comment on it, 318 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 2: those sort of things, and that's part of their testing material. 319 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 2: And so I kind of take it for granted that 320 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 2: it seems as though we've had access to this autopsy 321 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 2: report forever and ever. But going back to what you 322 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 2: said earlier about how the actual diagnoses of the strangulation, 323 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:40,159 Speaker 2: that's all we knew. We didn't know anything about the 324 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,959 Speaker 2: head trauma. We certainly didn't know anything about you know, 325 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 2: this this attack that that you know that had taken 326 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 2: place and she's essentially I think, assaulted, you know, sexually 327 00:20:55,800 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 2: or vaginally. Something has been inserted, you know, into her. 328 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 2: Now I don't know really how deep that this went. 329 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 2: If I remember correctly, I believe that that her hymen 330 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 2: was still intact, you know, but there was some type 331 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 2: of contact that was made on this child's body. It's 332 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:31,439 Speaker 2: a male profile that they obtained after the examination of 333 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:35,639 Speaker 2: that DNA, and I don't I would love to know 334 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 2: when this examination was actually conducted. I think it was 335 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 2: like ninety eight perhaps, if I'm not mistaken. I think 336 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,879 Speaker 2: that's accurate. All the way back then or ninety seven. 337 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 2: They knew back then that they had foreign DNA, and 338 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:57,880 Speaker 2: none of that information was released. But the ramses knew. 339 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,119 Speaker 2: They knew at that point in time, uh, back in 340 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 2: ninety seven, and it was never you know, it was 341 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:15,399 Speaker 2: never put forward. Yeah, well, I think that there was 342 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 2: no I felt as though that this was a male, 343 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 2: a male event, and the reason is that it's got 344 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:28,160 Speaker 2: the binding thing, you know, just just with the torture 345 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 2: you know around the neck, uh and where she's been 346 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 2: strangled with this grot. That's something that a sadistic male 347 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 2: would know something of, I would think, and again, my 348 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 2: my view of this is kind of colored. You know, 349 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 2: I mentioned to you in earlier comments that I had 350 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:53,959 Speaker 2: made about the serial killer that you used to Garat, 351 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 2: that I worked that case and and he was all 352 00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:00,920 Speaker 2: about torture, and this is this is I'm not saying 353 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,159 Speaker 2: that a female could not have done it could not 354 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 2: have have tortured a child with a Garat. However, these 355 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 2: are known torture devices and homicide weapons that there's a 356 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 2: utility to them. This is not just like a regular 357 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 2: old literature. This is something that's highly complex, so that 358 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 2: that part to me pointed in a in a very 359 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 2: specific direction. It's almost as if it's it's a a 360 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:40,960 Speaker 2: male sadist perhaps, And if I remember correctly, there was 361 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:46,959 Speaker 2: some seminal deposition I think on a blanket that was 362 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 2: that was found a Jason, you know, to her and 363 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:54,119 Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know what due care was 364 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 2: taken with that item as well. And that's that's the 365 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 2: big problem with the DNA. There is hope that I'll 366 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 2: go ahead and say this, There is hope and this 367 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 2: circumstances day because with and all those years ago when 368 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,920 Speaker 2: I was on the air with on CNN talking about 369 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,479 Speaker 2: this case. You know, back during this period of time, 370 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 2: our our needs from a forensic standpoint, you would need 371 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:27,639 Speaker 2: to do a DNA profile. You would need a robust 372 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 2: sample of blood most of the time, okay, or some 373 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:34,400 Speaker 2: other body fluid. But it would have to be robust okay, 374 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 2: because this is a you know, it becomes a depends 375 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 2: upon how you sample it. It becomes a destructive test, okay. 376 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,679 Speaker 2: And so you need you need enough so that you 377 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:46,879 Speaker 2: can go back. You need enough on reserve so that 378 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,920 Speaker 2: you can hold it back for further studies. It ain't 379 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 2: the case no more, dude, That's just not the case. 380 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 1: You know. 381 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 2: Now we're talking about touch DNA where you don't even 382 00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 2: need a complete You don't need a complete profile in 383 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,639 Speaker 2: order to facilitate this. You can use a partial and 384 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,159 Speaker 2: build it out from there. And that's done on a 385 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 2: regular basis. Now that's that's it's not the only way 386 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:16,680 Speaker 2: we assess DNA, but that's part and parcel of how 387 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:20,439 Speaker 2: we operate. Now we don't expect to find you know, 388 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 2: foreign blood samples that are pools of blood that are 389 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 2: generated from the perpetrator. Now, all it requires is did 390 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 2: they love skinned skin cells, did they sweat and those 391 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:37,680 Speaker 2: sorts of things, and so you can retrieve that. Yeah, 392 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,479 Speaker 2: it really does. And I think that there that's going 393 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 2: to be the silver bullet in this case. That it 394 00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 2: sounds almost like intellectual laziness on my part of this. 395 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,920 Speaker 2: Maybe I don't know, but I think the key to 396 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 2: all of this is going to be this DNA and 397 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 2: I think that there are other places where they could 398 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 2: source the DNA from from items that were collected at 399 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 2: the home. I tell you, you want to know what 400 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 2: one of my biggest shocks that that I had in 401 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,680 Speaker 2: this in the mob reveal in this in this particular 402 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:30,360 Speaker 2: set of circumstances, they found a large rope and it's 403 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 2: not the rope that was used, you know, to strangulate 404 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,640 Speaker 2: this child with, but another bit of rope that was found. 405 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 2: And they said that the Ramses had never seen it, 406 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:44,640 Speaker 2: and it was in an adjacent area. And you're thinking, well, 407 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 2: how in the world would you why would this rope appear, 408 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 2: you know, in this house? Well, I think I think 409 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 2: of things like that, you know, that bit of rope 410 00:26:56,119 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 2: that's there, and this thing was apparently coiled and secured. 411 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,920 Speaker 2: They don't necessarily talk about the nature of the knots 412 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:10,879 Speaker 2: that the things used to be secured with. However, for me, 413 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:18,639 Speaker 2: you know, I'm thinking again as a forensic scientist. You 414 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,360 Speaker 2: know that if you're calling a rope, every place you've 415 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 2: touched on that rope, uh, there's a probability there's a 416 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 2: chance that you can be depositing touch DNA allong the 417 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 2: surface of it. Again, going back to this molecular evidence, 418 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,920 Speaker 2: that would endwell, this these spaces, these tiny little crevices, 419 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:43,719 Speaker 2: you know, I'd like to know where that rope is. 420 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 2: You know, what became of that rope, what became of 421 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 2: all the rest of this evidence that was collected at autopsy, 422 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 2: for instance, you know the literature once it's removed from 423 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,680 Speaker 2: her neck and the groat. And here's another thing, that 424 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:01,639 Speaker 2: paintbrush that was snapped into well, yeah, you've got the 425 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:03,920 Speaker 2: part that was used as a growth. And what they're 426 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 2: saying is they believe that it may have been used 427 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:10,120 Speaker 2: as a device to sexually assault her. But also what's 428 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:12,640 Speaker 2: the status on the rest of that paint brush was it? 429 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, what's the status on everything 430 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 2: that was in that craft box? Because you have to 431 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,159 Speaker 2: believe that someone went in there and they were digging 432 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 2: for something well, if you're going to be digging for 433 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 2: something and you're not wearing gloves, there's a chance you 434 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 2: may have left something behind. Now, maybe I'm putting too 435 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 2: much stock, okay, and the value of potential DNA evidence, However, 436 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 2: what else do you have? What else do you have? 437 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 2: Because right now you're down to the DNA there's nothing 438 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 2: else that unless and lets somebody have some kind of 439 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 2: you know, epiphanal moment where guilt just overrides every bit 440 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 2: of judgment in their brain. They say, I've got to 441 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 2: get this off my chest. I'm going to say that 442 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 2: I did it and truly say that they did. You're 443 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 2: not going to be like some weirdo that runs off 444 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 2: the Southeast Asia, like the guy you know that they 445 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 2: famously filmed. Yeah, that that weirdo you know that he 446 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 2: you know, said that he had intimate knowledge of it, 447 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 2: he had done it, and he no more did that 448 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 2: in a mand the moon and it was again another 449 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 2: attention grab. So you know what, what what are you 450 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 2: left with? Well? I think, uh, your best hope here 451 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 2: is is going to be this this deposition of DNA 452 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 2: going back to those you know, those precious little hands 453 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 2: that you know and a funny. A lot of these 454 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 2: cases that we that we cover, you know, there some 455 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 2: of these things are literally wound up being solved by 456 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 2: the victim themselves. And wouldn't that be something, you know, 457 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 2: if that DNA, that unknown bit of DNA that they found, 458 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 2: you know, deposited beneath her fingernails, that you know, that's 459 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 2: going to be the thing that eventually points us out, 460 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 2: or that you know, the unknown foreign male DNA that's 461 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 2: found within our panties, you know, would not be something. 462 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 2: You know, there's that child's desperation to fight off whoever 463 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 2: it was that was doing this to her, you know, 464 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 2: winds up telling the tale of the perpetrator. 465 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 1: Perhaps, And after twenty eight years, we still don't know. 466 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 2: No, no, we don't, but I think I think probably 467 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 2: after you know, we you know, we'd mentioned these these 468 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 2: grand juries that had been convened, and nothing you know, 469 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 2: truly happened with this we you know. One of the 470 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 2: other points that was raised in this is that you've 471 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 2: got this mass communications professor from University of Colorado, that's 472 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 2: Michael Tracy is Professor emeritus, which means he's retired. In 473 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 2: case people don't know, Professor emeritis is generally and esteem professor, 474 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 2: a tenured professor that has retired and they still occupy 475 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 2: space at the university, and he's been contacted by this 476 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 2: this person, this was revealed in the documentary by the 477 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 2: name of Taxis, and that this individual was going to 478 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 2: give him information about the case. And you know it 479 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 2: kind of strung him along for uh, for you know, 480 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 2: a protracted uh period period of time, and you know 481 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 2: that he knew graphic details about everything that had occurred. 482 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 2: And you the thing about these cases like this, they 483 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 2: draw you know, flies like uh, you know, like a barbecue. Uh. 484 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 2: You know that they want to come in and have 485 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 2: some peace of this, get their moment of fame and notoriety. 486 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 2: And this has happened. You know, you get all kinds 487 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 2: of false confessions over the years, and generally it's the 488 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:00,960 Speaker 2: higher the higher of the you know, the profile of 489 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 2: the case. People want to interject themselves into it. And 490 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 2: it doesn't mean that their altruists and they want to help. 491 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 2: It means that they want themselves to become part of 492 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 2: the story. 493 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 1: Just got to remember the d access was revealed to 494 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: be John Mark Carr. 495 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And you know that kind of circular 496 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 2: event that takes place, you know, with car after you know, 497 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 2: and I'll never forget seeing him. And listen, I'll put 498 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 2: it to you this way. You know they talk about 499 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 2: you know, you can't judge a book by its cover. 500 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 2: I'll judge I saw that guy getting off the plane. 501 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 2: I'm thinking, this guy's freaking weirdo. You know, you see 502 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 2: him walking through the concourse. He's got that weird kind 503 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 2: of appearance about him. Yeah, that's dis settling, to say 504 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:49,720 Speaker 2: the very least. And then anybody that would interject themselves 505 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 2: into the circumstances where a child would be murdered like this, 506 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 2: And listen, he's the only he's like one of the 507 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 2: ones that we know about. Can you imagine how the 508 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 2: other calls have come in over the year's Dave, And 509 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 2: I'm imagine, and not just a law enforcement think about 510 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 2: all the newsrooms out there. They got phone calls because 511 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 2: you get them all the time. I mean I've gotten 512 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 2: them over the years. You know, at the e's office, 513 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 2: you know people that claim that they know special or 514 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 2: hidden information about something you know, And I would say, well, 515 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 2: you need to go to the police department and give 516 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 2: a statement. Here's phone number for the lead homicide detective 517 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 2: Pick and wow, they never it never works out. They 518 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 2: sometimes these people are mentally unbalanced, they just want somebody 519 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 2: to talk to or but they do have a desire 520 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 2: to to interject themselves, you know, into into this narrative. 521 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 2: But you know that, you know, kind of topping all 522 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 2: of this off, and this goes hand in hand. You know, 523 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 2: she had seventeen points in this article and the last 524 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,400 Speaker 2: two do in fact go hand in hand because they 525 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:02,200 Speaker 2: have to do with DNA. Here we go again. They 526 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 2: felt as though they both investigators and reporters, felt as 527 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,839 Speaker 2: though that first off, the crime scene had been contaminated 528 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 2: relative to DNA. I don't know what they mean by 529 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:19,760 Speaker 2: it being contaminated. Is does it go to the friends 530 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,720 Speaker 2: all being invited over, Does it go to John touching 531 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,279 Speaker 2: her body and bringing her upstairs. Does it go to 532 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 2: making coffee and having cookies, you know, in the kitchen. 533 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,279 Speaker 2: Does it go to the cops not wearing gloves? And 534 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 2: I don't know if they did or didn't at the 535 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 2: scene to work the scene. Did they introduce theirselfs into 536 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 2: the scene, you know, because there's bootprints that are found 537 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 2: in the house that are high tech, high tech bootprints 538 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,879 Speaker 2: that are what cops wear, you know, so you've got 539 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,319 Speaker 2: you've got that bit in there. So are people wearing 540 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:52,719 Speaker 2: shoe covers, they have hair covers, you know, all those 541 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:57,080 Speaker 2: sorts of things. And you can't just you can't just 542 00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:01,520 Speaker 2: simply say, well, they just didn't know dog don't hunt man. 543 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 2: You should have known better at that point in time. 544 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 2: But like I I've always wondered, why in the world, 545 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 2: why in the world hasn't hasn't there been a third 546 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,799 Speaker 2: party involved in this relative to the DNA science, And 547 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:22,319 Speaker 2: of course you know where I'm going with this. I'm 548 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 2: going with their friends at AUTHORM. I mean, hands down, 549 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,440 Speaker 2: this is the typical kind of case. This is the 550 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,880 Speaker 2: perfect case for an organization like AUTHORN to be involved 551 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,799 Speaker 2: in because if you still have DNA, or if you 552 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 2: if you think that there is a chance that you 553 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 2: can harvest DNA, they're the people to do it. And 554 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:46,920 Speaker 2: if they can extract that DNA from any of the surfaces, 555 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 2: whether it's a rope, whether it's the panties, where it's 556 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:53,040 Speaker 2: the fingernails, whether it's any kind of whether it's this 557 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 2: mass of blankets and everything, which you know, at some 558 00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,359 Speaker 2: point in time somebody said about seminal deposition. I don't 559 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:04,759 Speaker 2: know how to verify that. Is there seminal deposition that 560 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,400 Speaker 2: you can extract? What's the status on all of this stuff? 561 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,320 Speaker 2: Is it moldering in a back room somewhere or is 562 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 2: it something that you actually that you're actually protecting after 563 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 2: all these years. If you've got this into the hands 564 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:24,279 Speaker 2: of authorm Labs, they can they can build out this 565 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:26,839 Speaker 2: profile now, Dave. And not only can they build it out, 566 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,440 Speaker 2: they turn this damn thing over to the genealogists that 567 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 2: are on board and Katie bar the door brother, because 568 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,360 Speaker 2: it's at that point in time that they can source this. 569 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,520 Speaker 2: It doesn't matter if this individuals not in CODIS. It 570 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 2: doesn't it doesn't, it doesn't matter. That's that's no, that's 571 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 2: off the table at this point in time. Yeah, I mean, 572 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 2: at the we have moved so far beyond beyond the 573 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:58,840 Speaker 2: system where stuff is is you know, inserted into with 574 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 2: codis when you start to get into this forensic genetic genealogy. 575 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,440 Speaker 2: And interestingly enough, in twenty twenty two, I think it 576 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 2: correct me if I'm wrong, I think it is. Isn't 577 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:16,120 Speaker 2: that when John D. John He's solicited you know, for 578 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 2: the governor. Please, I'm asked, please. 579 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:19,759 Speaker 1: Let us let somebody else help. 580 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 3: I'm thinking, why is he having to ask the governor 581 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 3: on you're talking two years ago? The guy is begging, 582 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:32,399 Speaker 3: please let me find out who killed my daughter. This 583 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:33,320 Speaker 3: is all I'm asking. 584 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:33,839 Speaker 1: Now. 585 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 3: This is a guy who's asking the governor to step in, 586 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:40,279 Speaker 3: to allow them to take this DNA evidence and turn 587 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 3: it over to another group that can look at it differently. 588 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,279 Speaker 1: And why is there a no? 589 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:54,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's something that I certainly don't understand. And perhaps, 590 00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:58,399 Speaker 2: and again this is me spitballing because I was on 591 00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 2: I was covering. I was covering. This was somebody else recently, 592 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,359 Speaker 2: Maybe we were Maybe we were on Nancy. I can't 593 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 2: remember anyway that the idea came up with, you know, 594 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 2: the DNA testing being a destructive test. And is there 595 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,120 Speaker 2: enough of it left? Well? How much did you go 596 00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:21,480 Speaker 2: through at that point in time? And you have to remember, 597 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,240 Speaker 2: And this is where the hope herein lies. The hope 598 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 2: is that you don't need as much as you used to. 599 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,440 Speaker 2: If I tried, I don't know that I could necessarily 600 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:41,960 Speaker 2: give us sufficient I would. My words are insufficient to 601 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:46,120 Speaker 2: describe to you how little you need now in order 602 00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:49,520 Speaker 2: to do this, in order to facilitate this, and that Dave, 603 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 2: that one that one shot at it could be enough 604 00:38:54,920 --> 00:39:01,319 Speaker 2: to finally reveal maybe not who killed her, but who 605 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:08,799 Speaker 2: was present when she died. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and 606 00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:11,320 Speaker 2: this is Bockbacks