WEBVTT - From the Vault: MDMA, Part 2 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:07.960 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your mind. My name 0:00:08.000 --> 0:00:11.440 is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. 0:00:11.480 --> 0:00:13.320 Time to go into the vault. Now, this time we're 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:16.720 going to check in with part two of the episode 0:00:16.760 --> 0:00:19.400 that you did with Christian about m d m A 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:23.360 way back in December. That's right. Uh, yeah, we figured 0:00:23.360 --> 0:00:26.160 since we did those psychedelic episodes, made sense to re 0:00:26.239 --> 0:00:28.800 air these m d m A episodes. Again, these are 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.800 from so you know, they're a few years old, and 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:34.479 the research into m d M A and its potential 0:00:34.520 --> 0:00:38.239 therapeutic uses has continued, so these do not reflect like 0:00:38.320 --> 0:00:41.400 the cutting edge of the research by any means. Uh. 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:43.360 And likewise, you know, we've we've re aired, We've re 0:00:43.400 --> 0:00:47.040 aired a number of episodes featuring Christian. I just want 0:00:47.040 --> 0:00:50.159 to remind everybody that Christian is alive and well in 0:00:50.200 --> 0:00:52.440 the world, and you want to check out his his 0:00:52.560 --> 0:00:55.960 ongoing podcasting adventures. He is still very much the co 0:00:56.080 --> 0:01:01.000 host of super Context, which is like a pop culture autopsy. 0:01:01.040 --> 0:01:03.760 I believe they describe it as such. Yeah, definitely worth 0:01:03.840 --> 0:01:07.360 checking out. All right, Well, let's venture once more into 0:01:07.360 --> 0:01:13.520 the vault. Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:22.520 how Stop works dot com. Hey, wasn't discussed tobow your mind. 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:25.319 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Christian Sager. So 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:28.039 we are in part two of our M d M 0:01:28.040 --> 0:01:32.440 A Spectacular, and the last episode we talked primarily about 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:35.360 what m d M A is, when it was invented, 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:37.760 who invented it, and what its physical effects on the 0:01:37.760 --> 0:01:40.959 body are, right UH. And so if you haven't listened 0:01:41.000 --> 0:01:42.640 to that and you want a little bit more background, 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:44.360 I recommend that you go back and listen to it. 0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:47.800 But what we're gonna focus on here today is primarily 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:50.840 how it's being used in studies, or how it's been 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:53.680 used really for the last thirty or forty years UH 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:56.600 in studies on how to treat people for various things, 0:01:56.640 --> 0:02:00.920 from everything from mental problems to PTSD to answer yeah 0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:02.920 and UH. As As we set up in the last episode, 0:02:02.920 --> 0:02:05.800 you're basically dealing with two different phases, right. So the 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:10.040 substances UH is first synthesized in the early twentieth century. 0:02:10.240 --> 0:02:14.400 It's not until UH generally the what the sixties, seventies 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:17.600 and eighties that you see it used therapeutically. You see 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:23.760 people experimenting with its uh, the potential potential benefits outside 0:02:23.760 --> 0:02:28.200 of a recreational environment. But then it becomes enemy number one, right, 0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:31.680 it becomes caught up in the culture. Last episode, it 0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:34.880 was immediately placed on like the most restrictive drug list, 0:02:34.919 --> 0:02:37.640 so scientists couldn't even use it in their labs to 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:40.840 study its. And this goes for various psychedelics as well, 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:44.280 such as a psilocybin. But then in recent years we've 0:02:44.320 --> 0:02:48.320 seen a resurgence. You've seen You've seen psilocybin, you've seen 0:02:48.480 --> 0:02:50.919 m D M A, all these substance coming back into 0:02:50.919 --> 0:02:54.000 the lab and uh and and professionals are able to 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:57.919 actually explore them some more, look at these undeniably potent, 0:02:58.200 --> 0:03:01.880 powerful substances and say what what he or can we use? 0:03:02.120 --> 0:03:05.040 What can we change? What? What can we just try 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:09.880 to to use in a proper environment and and out 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:13.360 of it all generate some sort of positive effect. Yeah. 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:15.360 And so before we get into the real, you know, 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:18.359 boiled down details about this, I want to remind everybody 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:20.600 that the podcast isn't the only way that you can, 0:03:20.720 --> 0:03:23.200 you know, interact with us or see the things that 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:26.840 we're looking at this week. We also are always writing 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:29.480 on stuff to blow your Mind dot com. There's galleries, 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:32.480 there's articles. At least once or twice a week we're 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:36.200 putting stuff up there, and videos as well. So there's 0:03:36.200 --> 0:03:38.680 all the old stuff to blow your own videos. But Robert, 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:41.280 for instance, is currently working on the How Stuff Works 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:43.600 Now series and as much as possible, we try to 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:46.960 share those videos as well. Uh, and they're very stuff 0:03:47.000 --> 0:03:49.680 to blow your mind related topics, right, yeah, yeah, very 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:52.560 much weird science that sort of thing. And hey, uh, 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:54.360 I know a lot of you listen to us on 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:59.640 various aggregated programs, various apps and whatnot, but but there 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:03.240 are certainly iTunes users out there getting us on iTunes 0:04:03.240 --> 0:04:05.640 and listen us to listening to us on your iPhones. 0:04:05.920 --> 0:04:08.640 If you get us through iTunes, show some love their 0:04:09.080 --> 0:04:11.200 help the algorithm and that's a great way to support 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:13.800 the show without spending a dime. So all right, let's 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:17.719 get into the pharmacological healing properties of m d M 0:04:17.720 --> 0:04:20.240 A and this brings us back to Shulgun. Yeah. So 0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:22.240 Alexander Shulgan, who we talked a lot about in the 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:27.440 last episode, also known as Sasha Shulgin, the Godfather of Ecstasy, uh, 0:04:27.760 --> 0:04:33.760 was also primarily responsible for bringing to the psychological community. 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:38.840 Uh In in particular um his wife Anne. My understanding 0:04:38.880 --> 0:04:41.360 was that she was a therapist and she used m 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:44.000 d m A and some of her therapy sessions with 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:47.919 her patients. But he also uh introduced it to a 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:51.640 guy named Leo zef in N seven who started using 0:04:51.680 --> 0:04:54.680 it in psychotherapy and introduced other therapists to it. And 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:56.320 so my understanding is that there is this kind of 0:04:56.400 --> 0:05:00.680 underground network of therapists who were using it in their 0:05:00.720 --> 0:05:02.680 research and in their studies. And this is before it 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:07.440 was tremendously legal. Yes, obviously it's one of the areas 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:09.560 you see mentioned a lot. Is it's used in couples 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:12.760 therapy because ultimately, as as we try to drive home 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:15.400 in the last episode, this idea that m d m 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:19.720 A and ecstasy produce, this feeling of ecstasy is is 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:23.360 a buitiness leading it's more empathy and sympathy. It's more 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:25.479 a feeling of openness. Again, I like to think of 0:05:25.520 --> 0:05:29.200 it as the self becomes permeable to the world and 0:05:29.320 --> 0:05:34.200 so it's able to improve emotional communication skills. So that 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:37.800 was and boost empathy. So this is where psychotherapist would 0:05:37.839 --> 0:05:40.599 use it to say you have two individuals that they're 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:43.960 having marital problems, they're having communication problems, they have all 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:46.880 this stuff bottle up inside. Well than in these cases, 0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:50.120 perhaps m d m A can be used to open 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:51.919 the two up, to get them to talk about things 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:55.600 that they're not talking about. So it's not a situation 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:58.040 where like you having marital problems, take two of these 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:00.680 and commy in the morning. It's like, let's let's have 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:03.960 a rap session and let's take this. You will take 0:06:04.000 --> 0:06:06.360 this first, and this will enable the sort of open 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:09.479 communication we need. Yeah, I can't emphasize this enough. For 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:13.080 all of these psychotherapeutic uses that we're talking about here, 0:06:13.400 --> 0:06:16.080 they have to go hand in hand with actual sit 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:19.440 down in the chair, talk to a therapist counseling. Right. Definitely, 0:06:19.480 --> 0:06:21.279 it's not like you just take the m d m 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:22.840 A and call them in the morning. Right, Like as 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:25.880 we just said, it's it's got to be in conjunction 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:28.719 with building trust with somebody that you can talk to 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:31.640 objectively about whatever the issues. It's the m d m 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:35.760 A assisted psychotherapy, not psychotherapy assisted m d m A usage. 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:38.200 And and we'll get into this more, especially with the 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:41.960 PTSD stuff, but basically what it does The argument is 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:45.480 is that it allows you to increase your trust for 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:48.720 people if you have trouble trusting people, and it reduces 0:06:48.760 --> 0:06:52.600 your fear and anxiety levels. So it's particularly good as 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:54.839 I you know, as you just mentioned, for something like 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:57.599 couples therapy where there's communication issues, if you have fear 0:06:57.640 --> 0:07:00.200 of not communicating something or you need to trust your 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:05.680 partner more. That that's where the ideal lies in its usage. So, yeah, 0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:09.520 it was being used as early as the seventies, and 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:12.440 you know, probably up until the mid eighties, right around 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:16.360 the time that it was made illegal in the United States. Uh, 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:19.920 but you know that that was primarily like an underground thing. 0:07:20.000 --> 0:07:24.040 It wasn't like it wasn't like a man dated. It 0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:26.680 wasn't like in the D S M for whatever came 0:07:26.680 --> 0:07:30.840 out in the seventies, right, and so, uh, it wasn't 0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:34.520 until a more modern time, really, right around the two thousands, 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:36.960 I want to say, where we started seeing M d 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:40.760 M A show up again in psychotherapy trials. That's right. 0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:44.760 And though the primary player here is an organization known 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:50.040 as MAPS that's Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies, and they're 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:51.920 they're concerned not just with M d m A but 0:07:52.000 --> 0:07:56.000 with psilocybe and other substances. Um, And they continue to 0:07:56.040 --> 0:07:59.760 explore quote whether m d m A assisted psychotherapy can 0:07:59.800 --> 0:08:04.840 help heal the psychological and emotional damage caused by sexual assault, war, 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:09.560 violent crime, and other traumas. So this is this is 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:12.880 one of the huge areas of exploration here. And oh 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:15.440 and just to give a little more background on maps, um, 0:08:15.520 --> 0:08:18.000 they're it's a. It's They are operating in several different 0:08:18.000 --> 0:08:22.720 countries I think five right now, Canada, Israel, Spain, Switzerland, Israel, 0:08:23.080 --> 0:08:25.400 and in the US. Yeah, there are trials being done 0:08:25.440 --> 0:08:27.640 in the US. And I think I mentioned this at 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:29.760 the end of last episode, but it bears repeating here. 0:08:29.840 --> 0:08:32.920 It is super expensive to research system. Not only because 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:35.640 of all of the restrictions that have to be placed 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:38.840 on the facilities in which you are holding the m 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:40.600 d m A for these trials, right, Like you have 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:45.520 to build like like super like heavy door frames, right 0:08:45.640 --> 0:08:48.520 or like security systems that you normally wouldn't have for 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:52.200 these places. But the medical grade m d m A 0:08:52.320 --> 0:08:54.960 is also quite expensive. It can cost up to a 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:59.440 hundred and seventy dollars or seventy five dollars per dose. 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:02.360 So and that's like, as we were saying last episode, 0:09:02.360 --> 0:09:05.959 one dose is like a hundred, two hundred and fifty milligrams. Yeah. Again, 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:08.880 think back to the fact that one of the reasons 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:10.520 that it was shell for so long is that it 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:13.080 was expensive to study. So even in the you know, 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:17.319 the early twentieth century German chemisicists looked at it and uh, 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:19.680 and they realized, oh, it has some sort of interesting properties, 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:22.760 but who has the budget to explore it? So before 0:09:23.080 --> 0:09:25.360 we dive deeper down to the psychotherapy thing, I think 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:28.040 an interesting way to approach this is to add the 0:09:28.080 --> 0:09:31.360 criticisms up first, so then as we go through it, 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:34.480 we can sort of say, okay, we're those criticisms valid 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:37.400 or not. Uh. And in the research, one of the 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:40.079 major M d M A researchers who's published a lot 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:42.400 of literature on this is a guy named Andy Parrott, 0:09:42.400 --> 0:09:46.360 who's i believe, out of the University of Swansea, and he, 0:09:46.679 --> 0:09:48.760 you know, has done a great paper that's on sort 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:52.120 of just the the general twenty five years of empirical 0:09:52.200 --> 0:09:55.640 history of chemistry, right that the chemistry behind M d 0:09:55.760 --> 0:09:58.480 M A UM. But he does acknowledge that there's been 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:01.280 some criticism U and mainly that it's not safe for 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:04.400 clinical use. Uh. And some proponents say that it needs 0:10:04.440 --> 0:10:07.320 to be used repeatedly for more than one or two 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:11.920 sessions or otherwise it won't produce gains in those situations, right. Uh. 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:14.040 And remember from the last episode, m d M AS 0:10:14.040 --> 0:10:18.080 effects are short lived, and uh, it doesn't exactly work 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:20.199 like that. You know, as we said before, there's a 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:24.600 chronic decline over time. The more you use it, the 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:27.679 less positive effects are and the more the negative effects are. 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:31.360 So there's some concern about that with the tolerance levels. 0:10:31.880 --> 0:10:33.880 But there's also acute effects of m d M A 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:36.560 that are unpredictable, which we talked about as well last time. 0:10:36.760 --> 0:10:39.080 They can both be positive or negative, right like that, 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:43.600 for instance, that there's both positive and negative emotional responses, 0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:47.840 or or that there's some undesirable experiences during the sessions, 0:10:48.200 --> 0:10:51.920 and sometimes these undesirable experiences can last up to two 0:10:52.000 --> 0:10:54.720 weeks long. So that's kind of parrots argument is, you know, 0:10:55.080 --> 0:10:58.080 let's let's stop before we do this. But Uh, there's 0:10:58.120 --> 0:11:02.280 also the idea of the neuro chemical depletion the serotonin 0:11:03.000 --> 0:11:05.720 uh and can lead to feelings of depression, anger, and 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:09.840 paranoia anyways. Uh, and it's especially bad for those who 0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:13.760 have pre existing depression, and it could even predispose people 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:17.920 who like, for instance, we're already depressed but had um 0:11:17.960 --> 0:11:20.960 you know, dealt with that issue, to a recurrence of 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:25.200 their previous psychological disability. So these are all of his 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:29.520 essential like criticisms of I don't know that we're quite 0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:32.560 there yet for the psychotherapy thing. And he presents us 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:36.800 with two scenarios in which he thinks that that this 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:38.880 isn't going to particularly work out. And I'll read through 0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:42.880 the first one and we can respond to these as 0:11:42.920 --> 0:11:45.800 we go through the benefits of the psychotherapy and see 0:11:45.800 --> 0:11:47.760 if see if his criticisms are right. Yeah. So if 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:50.760 we don't launch into picking them apart right away, understand it. 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:54.840 That's the reason. Yeah, Okay, So parents, first scenario is 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:58.000 that you have a Special Air Force soldier who's discharged 0:11:58.040 --> 0:12:01.199 from the army because he has PTSD is traumatic stress disorder. 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:03.840 His therapist says, let's try this m d M A 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:07.760 assisted therapy. Oh, but the drug stimulates the re emergence 0:12:07.920 --> 0:12:11.560 of the soldier's unpleasant war experiences, and this includes feelings 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:14.400 of aggression. The soldiers trying to control these while he's 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:17.640 at the clinic. However, later that evening, this is the scenario, 0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:20.760 mind you, he violently attacks a stranger in the street. 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:24.200 Following his arrest, his lawyer argues that this aggressive act 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:26.640 has been triggered by the m d m A assisted 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:31.800 therapy session. So okay, so so sorry. Parrot is basically saying, Okay, 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:34.920 this guy could potentially go out and assault somebody due 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:36.840 to the negative feelings that get dredged up by this 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:39.920 therapy induced m d m A session. Okay, I have 0:12:40.000 --> 0:12:43.880 so many responses to that. I'm gonna clear for a minute, 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:47.320 all right. The second scenario that he lays up is 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:52.200 called involves a hypothetical case of a female rape victim. Uh. 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:54.840 He says. After the first m DUMA assisted therapy session, 0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:56.880 the client feels much better, but the games do not 0:12:56.920 --> 0:13:00.480 injure over time. Following a second session this m d 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:04.520 m A assisted again, there's a brief period of of relief, 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:06.800 and then a third session is requested, but the therapist 0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:10.959 explains that she can't clinically recommend it to the client. 0:13:11.040 --> 0:13:14.560 Now Quote seeks out their own illicit supplies that ecstasy 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:16.880 slash m d M A. The only time she feels 0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:18.400 good is when she is on m d m A, 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:23.160 and she becomes an habitual user. However, with reducing efficiency 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:26.760 and increasing midweek blues, her chronic anxiety, depression, and low 0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:32.120 self esteem steadily worsens. M M Yeah, so I don't know. 0:13:32.240 --> 0:13:36.360 I mean, that seems counterintuitive even in and of itself, right, 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:39.160 and the idea that this person would become a habitual 0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:43.360 user given what we know from Parrot's own discourse about 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:45.679 m d M A and that most people don't use 0:13:45.679 --> 0:13:47.880 it more than ten times. Everything we discussed in the 0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:51.199 first episode seems to to poke holes in that argument 0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:53.199 and a lot of the research for that game in 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:55.640 Parrot's own writing. So I'm not quite sure about this, 0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:57.680 but let's let's see if it matches up as we 0:13:57.679 --> 0:14:00.640 go along. Okay, Now, this is the thing that ties 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:04.400 into a criticism of scenario one, but also just important 0:14:04.440 --> 0:14:06.880 to to look at going forward is that when it 0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:10.600 comes to the treatment of PTSD, there is and there 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:13.080 is an urgent need for better treatment methods. So this 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:15.360 is just this isn't just a situation of a bunch 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:19.040 of scientists or even an organization saying hey, we've got 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:20.400 to find a way to make m d M a 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:24.360 practical This is not what you Harrelson wearing a jacket around, right. 0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:28.160 This is this is there a professional saying, hey, we 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:31.280 need a better tool here, we need a better methods, 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:34.920 and we need need better drugs to help these individuals. 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:38.360 There's a potential answer here, let's explore it. So to 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:40.640 piggyback on top of that, I think it's important that 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:44.760 we sort of just quickly prime and established what PTSD is, right, Like, 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:46.640 it's a term a lot of us throw around, and 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:49.240 I've heard people say before like, oh, I have PTSD, 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:53.320 you know, And Uh, this is what PTSD is. Uh, 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:57.920 is a manifestation of trauma physically in your body. It's 0:14:58.000 --> 0:15:02.760 common in victims of war and abut it involves shaking, sweating, crumbling, 0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:07.000 anxiety and flashbacks. And basically what we're looking at here 0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:11.960 is the psychological scars having physical repercussions. Right, So they're 0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:14.880 physically affecting a person's body. So that's what we're talking 0:15:14.920 --> 0:15:19.480 about here for treatment is being able to get get 0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:25.400 them to integrate past that physical trauma rather mental trauma 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:29.800 manifesting physically. So here a couple of quick points that 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:33.320 come directly from MAPS about m d m A assisted psychotherapy, 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:36.680 they said. They say an Indie May assisted psychotherapy INDIEMA 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:39.760 is only administered a few times, unlike most medications for 0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:43.240 mental illnesses, which are often taken daily for years and 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:47.640 sometimes forever. UH and MAPS is undertaking a roughly twenty 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:50.040 million dollar plan to make m d m A into 0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:55.520 a Food and Drug Administration approved prescription medicine by one 0:15:55.960 --> 0:16:00.280 now Here are just a few up pointers as well 0:16:00.680 --> 0:16:04.680 that come from Ingrid Pacy, who I mentioned earlier. There's 0:16:04.680 --> 0:16:08.240 a fabulous bit with her on the CBC radio show 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:11.120 Ideas again their three part series A High Culture, which 0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:13.520 I highly recommend for anyone who's interested in just the 0:16:13.560 --> 0:16:17.920 overall uh re emergence of psychedelic research over the past 0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:20.200 a few decades and in some of the you know, 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:25.200 the the the concerns they're in. But Ingrid Percy is 0:16:25.240 --> 0:16:28.360 a psychiatrist. She's a lead investigator of mb m A 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:31.280 assisted therapy for treatment resistant post traumatic stress disorder at 0:16:31.280 --> 0:16:35.520 the University of British Columbia. So she points out that 0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:37.960 from phase one studies around the world, we know that 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:40.720 m d m A seems to lower fear, particularly for 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:45.840 treatment resistant PTSD creating a window. And it's interesting she 0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:49.960 says window because because references a window at that I 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:53.920 believe was the hundred milogram YEA creates a window during 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:57.240 which the trauma can be considered and discussed without the 0:16:57.240 --> 0:17:00.720 associated fear getting in the way. So it's about sort 0:17:00.760 --> 0:17:02.600 of allowing the monster to come out so you can 0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:05.120 look at it and deal with it and and and 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:08.800 perhaps exercise it. Right. According to pascy M d m A, 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:13.280 psychotherapy usually begins with feelings of relaxation, easing of muscles, 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:17.600 and among PTSD patients you often see the flashes of 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:20.680 the past trauma that then emerge and it can even 0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:23.159 be a strong bodily experience. So we mentioned this in 0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:28.560 the last episode about how how taking ecstasy can produce uh, 0:17:28.600 --> 0:17:32.200 these very strong negative feelings can can pull those out 0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:34.960 of an interce. So that's where I assume Parrot is 0:17:35.000 --> 0:17:39.320 getting his scenario to of which the soldier has experienced 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:43.399 such a negative emotions being recalled. Yeah, and that but 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:47.240 that what where I can't I'm having difficulty following him 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:49.720 is the logical extension of that to going out and 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:52.720 assaulting a person on the street, right, because he's saying, well, 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:54.600 you're gonna pull You're gonna pull the monster out of 0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:56.560 the closet, and then the monster could win. Well, yeah, 0:17:56.640 --> 0:17:58.240 but part of what are you gonna do? Just leave 0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:01.520 it in the closet. I mean, the idea here is 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:05.919 we've got to we've got to face these traumatic experiences, right, 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:09.040 and that m D MAY assisted psychotherapy can potentially allow 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:12.640 us to do so in a safer way with reduced 0:18:12.680 --> 0:18:15.440 fear um and and during all of this, the therapist 0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:19.320 or monitoring vital signs. Umah. Really, it's kind of the 0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:22.000 best case scenario to be doing m d m A 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:25.080 in right, because you're not like, like we talked about 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:28.600 last episode, like the some of the bad side effects 0:18:28.600 --> 0:18:32.560 like the overheating or the chewing on your teeth. They're 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:35.680 running about music. Yeah, all of that kind of stems 0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:37.639 out of the dance culture, not because of the drug, 0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:40.320 but because of the environment that you're in. Right. Yeah, 0:18:40.359 --> 0:18:42.280 So you know this is again it's about using it 0:18:42.320 --> 0:18:46.000 therapeutically with a therapist, using it as a way to 0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:49.600 open that window, to to gain access to things that 0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:52.919 are normally going to be too too buried or or 0:18:52.960 --> 0:18:56.520 to fear ridden to tackle and this is this is 0:18:56.560 --> 0:18:59.800 really key here. Again. One of the major issues is 0:18:59.840 --> 0:19:02.600 that there we need better tools, we need better medications 0:19:02.640 --> 0:19:06.879 to treat PTSD. And according to two percy um you 0:19:06.920 --> 0:19:11.800 see about a thirty success rate for conventional multi year 0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:16.520 PTSD therapy, but so far with m d m A 0:19:16.680 --> 0:19:20.480 PTSD therapy you've seen they've seen an eight five percent 0:19:20.680 --> 0:19:23.280 success rate. Wow, okay, well that backs up some of 0:19:23.280 --> 0:19:25.440 the other stuff that I read, which said that there 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:28.760 were significant gains found on There's a there's a scale 0:19:28.840 --> 0:19:31.920 that's used to measure somebody's level of PTSD. It's called 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:36.440 the PTSD scale. And after using that, after using m 0:19:36.520 --> 0:19:40.200 d m A in therapy, using the PTSD scale, they 0:19:40.280 --> 0:19:44.480 found that there were great gains over time. And in fact, 0:19:44.680 --> 0:19:47.840 when they did placebo trials telling people that they were 0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:50.159 doing m d m A when they weren't, they found 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:53.760 less games. So the the evidence does seem to show 0:19:53.800 --> 0:19:57.560 that this works. Um it also, you know, the aim 0:19:57.600 --> 0:20:01.199 here is is to help these people with their debilitate symptoms. 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:04.639 It's it's when they haven't responded to other therapies, and 0:20:04.680 --> 0:20:06.800 it's this isn't like oh, let's just try this, you know, 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:09.159 this is this is a situation where it's resistant to 0:20:09.320 --> 0:20:12.920 their last resort. Yeah. Uh, you know. The other treatments 0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:16.480 are anything from talking, to exposure therapy, to the things 0:20:16.520 --> 0:20:19.760 that cause the PTSD to all these daily medications that 0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:23.600 we could be using. Uh. One therapist says that they 0:20:23.640 --> 0:20:25.680 think that it works because of m d M as 0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:28.160 unique properties. And we talked about this last time. It's 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:31.879 both a stimulant and a psychedelic, right, so they said, quote, 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:35.520 the stimulant gives people confidence and the psychedelic allows people 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:38.960 to reflect on themselves and their experiences in a different way. 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:43.080 This combination helps them confront painful memories. And then in 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:45.320 two thousand nine there was an article by a Norwegian 0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:50.320 psychologist named I Believe this is palurine Yo Hansen, and 0:20:50.400 --> 0:20:55.159 he argued that it works through several mechanisms. Basically, the 0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:57.840 m d M A is increasing the levels of oxytocin 0:20:57.920 --> 0:21:00.359 in your body. And this is the call it the 0:21:00.400 --> 0:21:03.120 cuddle chemical. Um. I think you guys might have talked 0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:06.400 about this previously on the episode It's released during breastfeeding, 0:21:07.160 --> 0:21:08.720 not in the episode on the show and stuff to 0:21:08.720 --> 0:21:11.399 blow Your Left at five years one of yeah, the 0:21:12.080 --> 0:21:15.200 most frequently mentioned uh, properties of the body. I feel, 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:18.840 So it increases our oxytocin and what that does it 0:21:18.920 --> 0:21:23.880 prevents the brain's emotional processing center from overpowering our higher thoughts, 0:21:24.240 --> 0:21:26.600 so it quells fear and it encourages trust, just like 0:21:26.600 --> 0:21:30.439 we were talking about earlier. So, um, you know we 0:21:30.480 --> 0:21:33.000 mentioned m d m A has to occur in conjunction 0:21:33.400 --> 0:21:36.760 with psychotherapy. You aren't just taking m d m A. 0:21:37.000 --> 0:21:39.119 And it's not like you immediately go into therapy and 0:21:39.160 --> 0:21:41.040 you're taking m d m A with the therapist. You 0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:44.080 need to establish trust with this therapist through a series 0:21:44.119 --> 0:21:47.280 of sober sessions before you do these m d m 0:21:47.320 --> 0:21:49.160 A sessions. And usually at the most I think it's 0:21:49.200 --> 0:21:51.800 like three sessions, which kind of makes sense along the 0:21:51.840 --> 0:21:54.800 lines of what we know about people taking m d 0:21:54.920 --> 0:21:58.840 m A, its effects and their efficacy. But then also, 0:21:59.440 --> 0:22:03.880 you know the uh contradicts. I want to say, parents 0:22:04.240 --> 0:22:09.760 first example of of the potential UH subject where this 0:22:09.760 --> 0:22:12.080 wouldn't work for them, right, and that they've become sorry 0:22:12.080 --> 0:22:16.240 it was their second example where the girl becomes an addict, right, Um, 0:22:16.320 --> 0:22:19.520