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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday.

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Speaker 1: Time to go into the vault. Now, this time we're

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Speaker 1: going to check in with part two of the episode

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Speaker 1: that you did with Christian about m d m A

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Speaker 1: way back in December. That's right. Uh, yeah, we figured

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Speaker 1: since we did those psychedelic episodes, made sense to re

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Speaker 1: air these m d m A episodes. Again, these are

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Speaker 1: from so you know, they're a few years old, and

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Speaker 1: the research into m d M A and its potential

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Speaker 1: therapeutic uses has continued, so these do not reflect like

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Speaker 1: the cutting edge of the research by any means. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And likewise, you know, we've we've re aired, We've re

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Speaker 1: aired a number of episodes featuring Christian. I just want

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Speaker 1: to remind everybody that Christian is alive and well in

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Speaker 1: the world, and you want to check out his his

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Speaker 1: ongoing podcasting adventures. He is still very much the co

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Speaker 1: host of super Context, which is like a pop culture autopsy.

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Speaker 1: I believe they describe it as such. Yeah, definitely worth

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Speaker 1: checking out. All right, Well, let's venture once more into

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Speaker 1: the vault. Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from

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Speaker 1: how Stop works dot com. Hey, wasn't discussed tobow your mind.

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Christian Sager. So

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Speaker 1: we are in part two of our M d M

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Speaker 1: A Spectacular, and the last episode we talked primarily about

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Speaker 1: what m d M A is, when it was invented,

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Speaker 1: who invented it, and what its physical effects on the

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Speaker 1: body are, right UH. And so if you haven't listened

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Speaker 1: to that and you want a little bit more background,

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Speaker 1: I recommend that you go back and listen to it.

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Speaker 1: But what we're gonna focus on here today is primarily

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Speaker 1: how it's being used in studies, or how it's been

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Speaker 1: used really for the last thirty or forty years UH

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Speaker 1: in studies on how to treat people for various things,

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Speaker 1: from everything from mental problems to PTSD to answer yeah

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Speaker 1: and UH. As As we set up in the last episode,

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Speaker 1: you're basically dealing with two different phases, right. So the

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Speaker 1: substances UH is first synthesized in the early twentieth century.

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Speaker 1: It's not until UH generally the what the sixties, seventies

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Speaker 1: and eighties that you see it used therapeutically. You see

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Speaker 1: people experimenting with its uh, the potential potential benefits outside

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Speaker 1: of a recreational environment. But then it becomes enemy number one, right,

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Speaker 1: it becomes caught up in the culture. Last episode, it

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Speaker 1: was immediately placed on like the most restrictive drug list,

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Speaker 1: so scientists couldn't even use it in their labs to

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Speaker 1: study its. And this goes for various psychedelics as well,

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Speaker 1: such as a psilocybin. But then in recent years we've

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Speaker 1: seen a resurgence. You've seen You've seen psilocybin, you've seen

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Speaker 1: m D M A, all these substance coming back into

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Speaker 1: the lab and uh and and professionals are able to

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Speaker 1: actually explore them some more, look at these undeniably potent,

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Speaker 1: powerful substances and say what what he or can we use?

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Speaker 1: What can we change? What? What can we just try

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Speaker 1: to to use in a proper environment and and out

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Speaker 1: of it all generate some sort of positive effect. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And so before we get into the real, you know,

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Speaker 1: boiled down details about this, I want to remind everybody

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Speaker 1: that the podcast isn't the only way that you can,

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Speaker 1: you know, interact with us or see the things that

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Speaker 1: we're looking at this week. We also are always writing

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Speaker 1: on stuff to blow your Mind dot com. There's galleries,

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Speaker 1: there's articles. At least once or twice a week we're

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Speaker 1: putting stuff up there, and videos as well. So there's

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Speaker 1: all the old stuff to blow your own videos. But Robert,

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Speaker 1: for instance, is currently working on the How Stuff Works

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Speaker 1: Now series and as much as possible, we try to

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Speaker 1: share those videos as well. Uh, and they're very stuff

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Speaker 1: to blow your mind related topics, right, yeah, yeah, very

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Speaker 1: much weird science that sort of thing. And hey, uh,

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Speaker 1: I know a lot of you listen to us on

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Speaker 1: various aggregated programs, various apps and whatnot, but but there

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Speaker 1: are certainly iTunes users out there getting us on iTunes

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Speaker 1: and listen us to listening to us on your iPhones.

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Speaker 1: If you get us through iTunes, show some love their

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Speaker 1: help the algorithm and that's a great way to support

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Speaker 1: the show without spending a dime. So all right, let's

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Speaker 1: get into the pharmacological healing properties of m d M

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Speaker 1: A and this brings us back to Shulgun. Yeah. So

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Speaker 1: Alexander Shulgan, who we talked a lot about in the

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Speaker 1: last episode, also known as Sasha Shulgin, the Godfather of Ecstasy, uh,

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Speaker 1: was also primarily responsible for bringing to the psychological community.

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Speaker 1: Uh In in particular um his wife Anne. My understanding

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Speaker 1: was that she was a therapist and she used m

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Speaker 1: d m A and some of her therapy sessions with

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Speaker 1: her patients. But he also uh introduced it to a

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Speaker 1: guy named Leo zef in N seven who started using

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Speaker 1: it in psychotherapy and introduced other therapists to it. And

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Speaker 1: so my understanding is that there is this kind of

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Speaker 1: underground network of therapists who were using it in their

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Speaker 1: research and in their studies. And this is before it

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Speaker 1: was tremendously legal. Yes, obviously it's one of the areas

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Speaker 1: you see mentioned a lot. Is it's used in couples

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Speaker 1: therapy because ultimately, as as we try to drive home

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Speaker 1: in the last episode, this idea that m d m

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Speaker 1: A and ecstasy produce, this feeling of ecstasy is is

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Speaker 1: a buitiness leading it's more empathy and sympathy. It's more

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Speaker 1: a feeling of openness. Again, I like to think of

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Speaker 1: it as the self becomes permeable to the world and

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Speaker 1: so it's able to improve emotional communication skills. So that

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Speaker 1: was and boost empathy. So this is where psychotherapist would

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Speaker 1: use it to say you have two individuals that they're

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Speaker 1: having marital problems, they're having communication problems, they have all

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Speaker 1: this stuff bottle up inside. Well than in these cases,

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Speaker 1: perhaps m d m A can be used to open

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Speaker 1: the two up, to get them to talk about things

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Speaker 1: that they're not talking about. So it's not a situation

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Speaker 1: where like you having marital problems, take two of these

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Speaker 1: and commy in the morning. It's like, let's let's have

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Speaker 1: a rap session and let's take this. You will take

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Speaker 1: this first, and this will enable the sort of open

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Speaker 1: communication we need. Yeah, I can't emphasize this enough. For

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Speaker 1: all of these psychotherapeutic uses that we're talking about here,

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Speaker 1: they have to go hand in hand with actual sit

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Speaker 1: down in the chair, talk to a therapist counseling. Right. Definitely,

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Speaker 1: it's not like you just take the m d m

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Speaker 1: A and call them in the morning. Right, Like as

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Speaker 1: we just said, it's it's got to be in conjunction

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Speaker 1: with building trust with somebody that you can talk to

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Speaker 1: objectively about whatever the issues. It's the m d m

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Speaker 1: A assisted psychotherapy, not psychotherapy assisted m d m A usage.

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Speaker 1: And and we'll get into this more, especially with the

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Speaker 1: PTSD stuff, but basically what it does The argument is

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Speaker 1: is that it allows you to increase your trust for

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Speaker 1: people if you have trouble trusting people, and it reduces

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Speaker 1: your fear and anxiety levels. So it's particularly good as

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Speaker 1: I you know, as you just mentioned, for something like

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Speaker 1: couples therapy where there's communication issues, if you have fear

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Speaker 1: of not communicating something or you need to trust your

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Speaker 1: partner more. That that's where the ideal lies in its usage. So, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was being used as early as the seventies, and

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Speaker 1: you know, probably up until the mid eighties, right around

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Speaker 1: the time that it was made illegal in the United States. Uh,

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Speaker 1: but you know that that was primarily like an underground thing.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't like it wasn't like a man dated. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't like in the D S M for whatever came

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Speaker 1: out in the seventies, right, and so, uh, it wasn't

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Speaker 1: until a more modern time, really, right around the two thousands,

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Speaker 1: I want to say, where we started seeing M d

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Speaker 1: M A show up again in psychotherapy trials. That's right.

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Speaker 1: And though the primary player here is an organization known

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Speaker 1: as MAPS that's Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies, and they're

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Speaker 1: they're concerned not just with M d m A but

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Speaker 1: with psilocybe and other substances. Um, And they continue to

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Speaker 1: explore quote whether m d m A assisted psychotherapy can

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Speaker 1: help heal the psychological and emotional damage caused by sexual assault, war,

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Speaker 1: violent crime, and other traumas. So this is this is

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Speaker 1: one of the huge areas of exploration here. And oh

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Speaker 1: and just to give a little more background on maps, um,

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Speaker 1: they're it's a. It's They are operating in several different

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Speaker 1: countries I think five right now, Canada, Israel, Spain, Switzerland, Israel,

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Speaker 1: and in the US. Yeah, there are trials being done

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Speaker 1: in the US. And I think I mentioned this at

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Speaker 1: the end of last episode, but it bears repeating here.

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Speaker 1: It is super expensive to research system. Not only because

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Speaker 1: of all of the restrictions that have to be placed

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Speaker 1: on the facilities in which you are holding the m

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Speaker 1: d m A for these trials, right, Like you have

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Speaker 1: to build like like super like heavy door frames, right

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Speaker 1: or like security systems that you normally wouldn't have for

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Speaker 1: these places. But the medical grade m d m A

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Speaker 1: is also quite expensive. It can cost up to a

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Speaker 1: hundred and seventy dollars or seventy five dollars per dose.

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Speaker 1: So and that's like, as we were saying last episode,

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Speaker 1: one dose is like a hundred, two hundred and fifty milligrams. Yeah. Again,

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Speaker 1: think back to the fact that one of the reasons

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Speaker 1: that it was shell for so long is that it

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Speaker 1: was expensive to study. So even in the you know,

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Speaker 1: the early twentieth century German chemisicists looked at it and uh,

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Speaker 1: and they realized, oh, it has some sort of interesting properties,

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Speaker 1: but who has the budget to explore it? So before

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Speaker 1: we dive deeper down to the psychotherapy thing, I think

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Speaker 1: an interesting way to approach this is to add the

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Speaker 1: criticisms up first, so then as we go through it,

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Speaker 1: we can sort of say, okay, we're those criticisms valid

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Speaker 1: or not. Uh. And in the research, one of the

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Speaker 1: major M d M A researchers who's published a lot

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Speaker 1: of literature on this is a guy named Andy Parrott,

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Speaker 1: who's i believe, out of the University of Swansea, and he,

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Speaker 1: you know, has done a great paper that's on sort

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Speaker 1: of just the the general twenty five years of empirical

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Speaker 1: history of chemistry, right that the chemistry behind M d

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Speaker 1: M A UM. But he does acknowledge that there's been

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Speaker 1: some criticism U and mainly that it's not safe for

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Speaker 1: clinical use. Uh. And some proponents say that it needs

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Speaker 1: to be used repeatedly for more than one or two

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Speaker 1: sessions or otherwise it won't produce gains in those situations, right. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And remember from the last episode, m d M AS

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Speaker 1: effects are short lived, and uh, it doesn't exactly work

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Speaker 1: like that. You know, as we said before, there's a

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Speaker 1: chronic decline over time. The more you use it, the

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Speaker 1: less positive effects are and the more the negative effects are.

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Speaker 1: So there's some concern about that with the tolerance levels.

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Speaker 1: But there's also acute effects of m d M A

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Speaker 1: that are unpredictable, which we talked about as well last time.

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Speaker 1: They can both be positive or negative, right like that,

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Speaker 1: for instance, that there's both positive and negative emotional responses,

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Speaker 1: or or that there's some undesirable experiences during the sessions,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes these undesirable experiences can last up to two

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Speaker 1: weeks long. So that's kind of parrots argument is, you know,

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Speaker 1: let's let's stop before we do this. But Uh, there's

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Speaker 1: also the idea of the neuro chemical depletion the serotonin

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Speaker 1: uh and can lead to feelings of depression, anger, and

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Speaker 1: paranoia anyways. Uh, and it's especially bad for those who

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Speaker 1: have pre existing depression, and it could even predispose people

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Speaker 1: who like, for instance, we're already depressed but had um

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Speaker 1: you know, dealt with that issue, to a recurrence of

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Speaker 1: their previous psychological disability. So these are all of his

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Speaker 1: essential like criticisms of I don't know that we're quite

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Speaker 1: there yet for the psychotherapy thing. And he presents us

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Speaker 1: with two scenarios in which he thinks that that this

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Speaker 1: isn't going to particularly work out. And I'll read through

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Speaker 1: the first one and we can respond to these as

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Speaker 1: we go through the benefits of the psychotherapy and see

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Speaker 1: if see if his criticisms are right. Yeah. So if

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Speaker 1: we don't launch into picking them apart right away, understand it.

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Speaker 1: That's the reason. Yeah, Okay, So parents, first scenario is

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Speaker 1: that you have a Special Air Force soldier who's discharged

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Speaker 1: from the army because he has PTSD is traumatic stress disorder.

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Speaker 1: His therapist says, let's try this m d M A

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Speaker 1: assisted therapy. Oh, but the drug stimulates the re emergence

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Speaker 1: of the soldier's unpleasant war experiences, and this includes feelings

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Speaker 1: of aggression. The soldiers trying to control these while he's

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Speaker 1: at the clinic. However, later that evening, this is the scenario,

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Speaker 1: mind you, he violently attacks a stranger in the street.

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Speaker 1: Following his arrest, his lawyer argues that this aggressive act

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Speaker 1: has been triggered by the m d m A assisted

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Speaker 1: therapy session. So okay, so so sorry. Parrot is basically saying, Okay,

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Speaker 1: this guy could potentially go out and assault somebody due

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Speaker 1: to the negative feelings that get dredged up by this

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Speaker 1: therapy induced m d m A session. Okay, I have

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Speaker 1: so many responses to that. I'm gonna clear for a minute,

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Speaker 1: all right. The second scenario that he lays up is

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Speaker 1: called involves a hypothetical case of a female rape victim. Uh.

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Speaker 1: He says. After the first m DUMA assisted therapy session,

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Speaker 1: the client feels much better, but the games do not

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Speaker 1: injure over time. Following a second session this m d

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Speaker 1: m A assisted again, there's a brief period of of relief,

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Speaker 1: and then a third session is requested, but the therapist

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Speaker 1: explains that she can't clinically recommend it to the client.

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Speaker 1: Now Quote seeks out their own illicit supplies that ecstasy

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Speaker 1: slash m d M A. The only time she feels

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Speaker 1: good is when she is on m d m A,

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Speaker 1: and she becomes an habitual user. However, with reducing efficiency

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Speaker 1: and increasing midweek blues, her chronic anxiety, depression, and low

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Speaker 1: self esteem steadily worsens. M M Yeah, so I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that seems counterintuitive even in and of itself, right,

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Speaker 1: and the idea that this person would become a habitual

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Speaker 1: user given what we know from Parrot's own discourse about

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Speaker 1: m d M A and that most people don't use

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Speaker 1: it more than ten times. Everything we discussed in the

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Speaker 1: first episode seems to to poke holes in that argument

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Speaker 1: and a lot of the research for that game in

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Speaker 1: Parrot's own writing. So I'm not quite sure about this,

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Speaker 1: but let's let's see if it matches up as we

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Speaker 1: go along. Okay, Now, this is the thing that ties

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Speaker 1: into a criticism of scenario one, but also just important

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Speaker 1: to to look at going forward is that when it

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Speaker 1: comes to the treatment of PTSD, there is and there

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Speaker 1: is an urgent need for better treatment methods. So this

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Speaker 1: is just this isn't just a situation of a bunch

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Speaker 1: of scientists or even an organization saying hey, we've got

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Speaker 1: to find a way to make m d M a

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Speaker 1: practical This is not what you Harrelson wearing a jacket around, right.

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Speaker 1: This is this is there a professional saying, hey, we

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Speaker 1: need a better tool here, we need a better methods,

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Speaker 1: and we need need better drugs to help these individuals.

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Speaker 1: There's a potential answer here, let's explore it. So to

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Speaker 1: piggyback on top of that, I think it's important that

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Speaker 1: we sort of just quickly prime and established what PTSD is, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: it's a term a lot of us throw around, and

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Speaker 1: I've heard people say before like, oh, I have PTSD,

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Speaker 1: you know, And Uh, this is what PTSD is. Uh,

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Speaker 1: is a manifestation of trauma physically in your body. It's

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Speaker 1: common in victims of war and abut it involves shaking, sweating, crumbling,

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Speaker 1: anxiety and flashbacks. And basically what we're looking at here

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Speaker 1: is the psychological scars having physical repercussions. Right, So they're

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Speaker 1: physically affecting a person's body. So that's what we're talking

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Speaker 1: about here for treatment is being able to get get

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Speaker 1: them to integrate past that physical trauma rather mental trauma

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Speaker 1: manifesting physically. So here a couple of quick points that

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Speaker 1: come directly from MAPS about m d m A assisted psychotherapy,

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Speaker 1: they said. They say an Indie May assisted psychotherapy INDIEMA

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Speaker 1: is only administered a few times, unlike most medications for

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Speaker 1: mental illnesses, which are often taken daily for years and

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Speaker 1: sometimes forever. UH and MAPS is undertaking a roughly twenty

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Speaker 1: million dollar plan to make m d m A into

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Speaker 1: a Food and Drug Administration approved prescription medicine by one

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Speaker 1: now Here are just a few up pointers as well

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Speaker 1: that come from Ingrid Pacy, who I mentioned earlier. There's

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Speaker 1: a fabulous bit with her on the CBC radio show

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Speaker 1: Ideas again their three part series A High Culture, which

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Speaker 1: I highly recommend for anyone who's interested in just the

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Speaker 1: overall uh re emergence of psychedelic research over the past

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Speaker 1: a few decades and in some of the you know,

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Speaker 1: the the the concerns they're in. But Ingrid Percy is

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Speaker 1: a psychiatrist. She's a lead investigator of mb m A

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Speaker 1: assisted therapy for treatment resistant post traumatic stress disorder at

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Speaker 1: the University of British Columbia. So she points out that

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Speaker 1: from phase one studies around the world, we know that

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Speaker 1: m d m A seems to lower fear, particularly for

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Speaker 1: treatment resistant PTSD creating a window. And it's interesting she

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Speaker 1: says window because because references a window at that I

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Speaker 1: believe was the hundred milogram YEA creates a window during

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Speaker 1: which the trauma can be considered and discussed without the

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Speaker 1: associated fear getting in the way. So it's about sort

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Speaker 1: of allowing the monster to come out so you can

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Speaker 1: look at it and deal with it and and and

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Speaker 1: perhaps exercise it. Right. According to pascy M d m A,

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Speaker 1: psychotherapy usually begins with feelings of relaxation, easing of muscles,

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Speaker 1: and among PTSD patients you often see the flashes of

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Speaker 1: the past trauma that then emerge and it can even

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Speaker 1: be a strong bodily experience. So we mentioned this in

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Speaker 1: the last episode about how how taking ecstasy can produce uh,

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Speaker 1: these very strong negative feelings can can pull those out

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Speaker 1: of an interce. So that's where I assume Parrot is

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Speaker 1: getting his scenario to of which the soldier has experienced

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Speaker 1: such a negative emotions being recalled. Yeah, and that but

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Speaker 1: that what where I can't I'm having difficulty following him

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Speaker 1: is the logical extension of that to going out and

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Speaker 1: assaulting a person on the street, right, because he's saying, well,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna pull You're gonna pull the monster out of

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Speaker 1: the closet, and then the monster could win. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but part of what are you gonna do? Just leave

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Speaker 1: it in the closet. I mean, the idea here is

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Speaker 1: we've got to we've got to face these traumatic experiences, right,

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Speaker 1: and that m D MAY assisted psychotherapy can potentially allow

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Speaker 1: us to do so in a safer way with reduced

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Speaker 1: fear um and and during all of this, the therapist

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Speaker 1: or monitoring vital signs. Umah. Really, it's kind of the

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Speaker 1: best case scenario to be doing m d m A

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Speaker 1: in right, because you're not like, like we talked about

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Speaker 1: last episode, like the some of the bad side effects

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Speaker 1: like the overheating or the chewing on your teeth. They're

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Speaker 1: running about music. Yeah, all of that kind of stems

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Speaker 1: out of the dance culture, not because of the drug,

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Speaker 1: but because of the environment that you're in. Right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So you know this is again it's about using it

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Speaker 1: therapeutically with a therapist, using it as a way to

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Speaker 1: open that window, to to gain access to things that

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Speaker 1: are normally going to be too too buried or or

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Speaker 1: to fear ridden to tackle and this is this is

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Speaker 1: really key here. Again. One of the major issues is

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Speaker 1: that there we need better tools, we need better medications

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Speaker 1: to treat PTSD. And according to two percy um you

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Speaker 1: see about a thirty success rate for conventional multi year

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Speaker 1: PTSD therapy, but so far with m d m A

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Speaker 1: PTSD therapy you've seen they've seen an eight five percent

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Speaker 1: success rate. Wow, okay, well that backs up some of

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Speaker 1: the other stuff that I read, which said that there

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Speaker 1: were significant gains found on There's a there's a scale

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Speaker 1: that's used to measure somebody's level of PTSD. It's called

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Speaker 1: the PTSD scale. And after using that, after using m

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Speaker 1: d m A in therapy, using the PTSD scale, they

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Speaker 1: found that there were great gains over time. And in fact,

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Speaker 1: when they did placebo trials telling people that they were

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Speaker 1: doing m d m A when they weren't, they found

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Speaker 1: less games. So the the evidence does seem to show

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Speaker 1: that this works. Um it also, you know, the aim

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Speaker 1: here is is to help these people with their debilitate symptoms.

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Speaker 1: It's it's when they haven't responded to other therapies, and

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Speaker 1: it's this isn't like oh, let's just try this, you know,

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Speaker 1: this is this is a situation where it's resistant to

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Speaker 1: their last resort. Yeah. Uh, you know. The other treatments

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Speaker 1: are anything from talking, to exposure therapy, to the things

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Speaker 1: that cause the PTSD to all these daily medications that

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Speaker 1: we could be using. Uh. One therapist says that they

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Speaker 1: think that it works because of m d M as

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Speaker 1: unique properties. And we talked about this last time. It's

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Speaker 1: both a stimulant and a psychedelic, right, so they said, quote,

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Speaker 1: the stimulant gives people confidence and the psychedelic allows people

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Speaker 1: to reflect on themselves and their experiences in a different way.

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Speaker 1: This combination helps them confront painful memories. And then in

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Speaker 1: two thousand nine there was an article by a Norwegian

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Speaker 1: psychologist named I Believe this is palurine Yo Hansen, and

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Speaker 1: he argued that it works through several mechanisms. Basically, the

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Speaker 1: m d M A is increasing the levels of oxytocin

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Speaker 1: in your body. And this is the call it the

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Speaker 1: cuddle chemical. Um. I think you guys might have talked

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Speaker 1: about this previously on the episode It's released during breastfeeding,

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Speaker 1: not in the episode on the show and stuff to

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Speaker 1: blow Your Left at five years one of yeah, the

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Speaker 1: most frequently mentioned uh, properties of the body. I feel,

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Speaker 1: So it increases our oxytocin and what that does it

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Speaker 1: prevents the brain's emotional processing center from overpowering our higher thoughts,

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Speaker 1: so it quells fear and it encourages trust, just like

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Speaker 1: we were talking about earlier. So, um, you know we

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Speaker 1: mentioned m d m A has to occur in conjunction

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Speaker 1: with psychotherapy. You aren't just taking m d m A.

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Speaker 1: And it's not like you immediately go into therapy and

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Speaker 1: you're taking m d m A with the therapist. You

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Speaker 1: need to establish trust with this therapist through a series

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Speaker 1: of sober sessions before you do these m d m

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Speaker 1: A sessions. And usually at the most I think it's

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Speaker 1: like three sessions, which kind of makes sense along the

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Speaker 1: lines of what we know about people taking m d

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Speaker 1: m A, its effects and their efficacy. But then also,

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Speaker 1: you know the uh contradicts. I want to say, parents

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Speaker 1: first example of of the potential UH subject where this

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Speaker 1: wouldn't work for them, right, and that they've become sorry

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Speaker 1: it was their second example where the girl becomes an addict, right, Um,

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Speaker 1: so they only use it for three sessions at the most.

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Speaker 1: All right, we're gonna take a quick break and we

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Speaker 1: come back. We're gonna we're gonna roll through some other

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Speaker 1: potential uses. M d m A as a cancer fighting agent.

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Speaker 1: Uh is potential uh aid in couples therapy and even

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Speaker 1: away to ease an individual uh to the death point.

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Speaker 1: All right, we're back. So we set up for this

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Speaker 1: a little bit in the in the previous episode. The

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Speaker 1: potential for for e m d M A to help

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Speaker 1: us fight cancer, which is this is one of the

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Speaker 1: this is an area of m d m A research

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Speaker 1: that is uh. He kind of stands up part from

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Speaker 1: the rest because it's so it's not attached to the

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Speaker 1: most apparent properties of the drug. Right. In fact, So

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Speaker 1: the funny story, yesterday I was getting my hair cut

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Speaker 1: and as the first time I was getting my haircut

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Speaker 1: by this particular hairdresser. She asked me what I did

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Speaker 1: for a living and what I was working on right now,

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Speaker 1: and I told her was researching empty m A uh

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Speaker 1: and and she said, oh, that's fascinating, And I said

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Speaker 1: it can be used to help people with cancer. And

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Speaker 1: her immediate thought was, oh, yeah, that makes sense, like

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Speaker 1: if they're in pain, it would make them feel happy.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, oh no, I mean yes, there

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Speaker 1: are instances where they've been using it therapeutically that way.

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Speaker 1: But no, like let's recap from last episode, there's that

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Speaker 1: apotosis effect in which programs cell death actually attacks the

428
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,440
Speaker 1: cells in your liver and retina when you take M

429
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 1: d M A. H. So let's remember that that's what

430
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 1: they're using here to try to take take cancer out there,

431
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,920
Speaker 1: trying to kill the cells and cancer. It's not just

432
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 1: as like a you know, sort of like a pain

433
00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 1: reducer kind of thing. Yeah, So we've known since around

434
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 1: two thousand six that ecstasy, M D M A and

435
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 1: antidepressants such as prozac have the potential to stop cancer

436
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 1: cells the catches. Then, in order to kill the cells,

437
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,920
Speaker 1: who have to drop an absurd amount of ecstasy as

438
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 1: in a highly lethal dose. Um. Like just to refresh,

439
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 1: we were talking in the previous episode about how you're

440
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 1: talking about, uh, the average dose being in in then

441
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,679
Speaker 1: like a hundred hundred and fifty, right, and if you

442
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 1: get into one or one point five grams, you're getting

443
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 1: into into a deadly amount, potentially deadly amount. So in

444
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:37,679
Speaker 1: two thousand eleven, researchers from the University of Birmingham and

445
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:41,879
Speaker 1: the University of Western Australia UM looked into this. They

446
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:43,879
Speaker 1: were they were basically looking to ways at ways to

447
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,000
Speaker 1: tweak ecstasy, uh, to tweak m d m A at

448
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,359
Speaker 1: the atomic level, swapping out some of the atoms in

449
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 1: its chemical composition to increase its cancer fighting power by

450
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 1: a factor of a hundred. So to put that in perspective,

451
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 1: that means that you could have a single tablet of

452
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:02,479
Speaker 1: modified ecstasy, they would have as much cancer fighting power

453
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:06,680
Speaker 1: as a hundred tablets without boosting the unwanted effects of

454
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 1: the drug. So because because the amount of this is

455
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,480
Speaker 1: my understanding, the amount of m d m A needed

456
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 1: to start attacking the cancer cells is like a hundred grams, right,

457
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,160
Speaker 1: and so to that would totally kill you. Yeah. Yeah,

458
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:24,200
Speaker 1: that's like a hundred times as much as would be

459
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,920
Speaker 1: a hundred times a very strong dosage. Yeah, So they

460
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 1: need to make it more powerful so you can take

461
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,359
Speaker 1: less of it to attack the cancer but not have

462
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,199
Speaker 1: the negative side. Yeah. So basically taking the synthetic substance

463
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,879
Speaker 1: and tweaking it even more to encourage the properties you

464
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 1: need and discourage the properties that are going to kill

465
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:44,960
Speaker 1: the patient. And this is exactly the kind of thing

466
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:49,400
Speaker 1: that Alexander Shulgin would have promoted and wanted I think

467
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 1: his his his studies of these psychedelic compounds to be

468
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 1: used for going forward, you know. I mean his hope

469
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,439
Speaker 1: was that they would be studied educationally so that we

470
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 1: could find these kinds of uses for the Yeah, exactly,

471
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 1: to go back to the roadmap scenario, it's saying, hey,

472
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,199
Speaker 1: there's this road and uh, you didn't know it, but

473
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 1: there's a little turn here to the left, and it

474
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 1: leads to a potential cure for cancer. So when you

475
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 1: get into exactly how this works, uh, you really get

476
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:21,120
Speaker 1: bogged down rather quickly in the chemical and biochemical details.

477
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 1: But the basic explanation, as rolled out in that paper

478
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,680
Speaker 1: is the theory behind it is the drug is attracted

479
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,879
Speaker 1: to the fat in the membranes of cancerous cells, and

480
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,160
Speaker 1: it makes the cells quote a bit more soapy, which

481
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 1: can break down the membrane and kill the cell. Unfortunately,

482
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 1: cancerous cells are more susceptible. So again they hope to

483
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 1: hope to refine this. Last the most recent stat I

484
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 1: saw was they're hoping to make it possible by But

485
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,479
Speaker 1: again that was that that that was when they were

486
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 1: rolling up that particular it said they thought they're about

487
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,679
Speaker 1: a decade away. I'm curious where they're at with it

488
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 1: right now as Yeah, hopefully we'll get an update in

489
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:09,399
Speaker 1: the near future. Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if we

490
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 1: see something come out in the next year or so. Yeah.

491
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 1: So yeah, So, all right, we've covered PTSD cancer. What

492
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,119
Speaker 1: else can we use this for. Well, we already mentioned

493
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 1: couples therapy and about how it was rolled out with

494
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 1: apparently some level of success in the eighties, But there's

495
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 1: actually a two thousand fifteen study that was published in

496
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 1: the Journal of Psychopharmacology, and they set out to examine

497
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 1: how m d m A might be used to improve

498
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 1: communication about a spouse in therapy. So this is interesting.

499
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 1: It seems to be the key key here. That's not

500
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:42,400
Speaker 1: about as much about oh here, you both take MDMAIN

501
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: will also together, but it's about getting an individual to

502
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 1: share their own feelings and open up about what's bothering them.

503
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 1: So yeah, I could imagine based on the stereotypes surrounding

504
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 1: m d m A again, people hearing this and going

505
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 1: oh okay, so they take ecstasy and it makes them

506
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: want to have X, which was subsequently or they want

507
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 1: to love each other, they feel more open, they feel

508
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 1: more sympathetic. That's not again, ecstasy is a misnomer. Uh.

509
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 1: And this isn't all sexual. This is more about communication. Yeah,

510
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:14,120
Speaker 1: and you know, I I do have to say that,

511
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's it's totally believable that you would

512
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 1: have two individuals who have a connection with each other

513
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 1: while they're on m d m A and then afterwards

514
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 1: they realize, well, as my normal self even with the

515
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 1: inside of what I had conversing with this individual, I

516
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,440
Speaker 1: no longer feel that connection. But again, this entails a

517
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 1: therapist being present and using the information that you bring forth.

518
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 1: So yeah, right, we don't recommend that like couples just

519
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 1: do this in their kitchen together. Yeah, certainly not the kitchen.

520
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 1: Um So, so we've discussed m DMA's ability to increase sociability.

521
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 1: The drug alter speech production and fluency as well, and

522
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 1: according to the study, it may influence speech content. So

523
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 1: what they did is they rounded up thirty five healthy

524
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 1: individuals with prior in d m A experience UH completed

525
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 1: UM to session with UH within subjects double blind study

526
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 1: during which they received one point five milligrams of oral

527
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 1: m d M A and they also had a tiney

528
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 1: that's a very small amount one point five that is,

529
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: so then they would after the substance had taken hold

530
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 1: um whatever limited hold it would have given the dosage.

531
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 1: They engaged in five minute standardized talking tasks during which

532
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 1: they discussed a close personal relationship, and they found that

533
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 1: both analytic methods that they employed revealed that m d

534
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 1: m A altered speech content relative to pulci abou. The

535
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 1: drug increased use of social and sexual words, consistent with

536
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 1: reports that m d m A increases willingness to disclose. Okay,

537
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 1: so that lines up with what we know from the

538
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 1: PTSD thing, right, It makes me trust people, it makes you,

539
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 1: you know, you're more permeable, yourself is more permeable. And

540
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 1: using the machine learning algorithm that receichers, researchers found that

541
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 1: m d m A increased use of social words and

542
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 1: words relating to both positive and negative emotions. So, in

543
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 1: other words, it helped them open up about how they

544
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 1: felt about this other individual, what the problems might be.

545
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 1: And and and that is why it seems like it could

546
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 1: be very useful in indima assisted psychotherapy. So I guess

547
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 1: like the big problem here though, is how illegal it

548
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 1: still is, and that it's really difficult to conduct trials

549
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 1: like this, especially in a place like the United States. Right. So,

550
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 1: but some of the articles that I was reading about

551
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 1: both the PTSD thing and the cancer studies were saying

552
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 1: that they think that that there's going to be m

553
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 1: d m A approved by the f d A, the

554
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 1: Federal Drug Administration again, like maybe in the next ten

555
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 1: years or so. Yeah, and it seems like the same

556
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: prognosis with Canadian law. This is just me here, but

557
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 1: my my worry here is that what happens when this

558
00:30:54,800 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 1: gets beyond peer reviewed publications, science journalism and and you know,

559
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 1: and radio programs and podcast What happens when this becomes

560
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 1: a political football and we have individuals saying, oh, well,

561
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 1: you're about to allow our psychotherapists to start giving ecstasy

562
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 1: to people. What happens? Then? It kind of reminds me

563
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 1: of another stuff to blow your mind related thing, when

564
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 1: you did that video last week about the god helmet,

565
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of response on social media when

566
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 1: we posted that video. I got the impression that a

567
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 1: lot of people just read the headline and didn't watch

568
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 1: the video, but they were basically I give a primer

569
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 1: on what the god helmet is. Well, this was basically

570
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 1: we're talking about cranial electromagnetic stimulation affecting various portions of

571
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 1: the brain. If very basically turning things in your brain

572
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 1: on and off in order to see how they affect.

573
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 1: Electrical stimulation, slide electrical stimulation to see how it affects

574
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 1: your experience of reality. Right, And uh, there was some

575
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 1: research involving this that's saying that you know, by changing

576
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 1: the way that you perceive reality, it might be able

577
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 1: to help people overcome racism, for instance, right. Uh. And

578
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 1: both the responses to that on our our social media channels,

579
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 1: a lot of people were very angry because they saw

580
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: that as kind of like mind control, right, almost like

581
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 1: in a fascist kind of sense. So I could see

582
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 1: the same thing happening with M D m A. Right,

583
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, these these therapists, you know, they're the

584
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 1: activist therapists are going to try to reprogram our brains,

585
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 1: so we're just like them. Well, I mean the thing

586
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 1: is that both of these situations, whether you're talking about

587
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 1: you know, electrical stimulation of the brain or pharmacological stimulation

588
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 1: of the brain, you're dealing with a psychedelic effect. You know,

589
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 1: you're you're taking your normal consciousness experience and you're tweaking

590
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 1: it a bit, you're changing it. You're changing your perception

591
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 1: of self, uh and reality in at least a very

592
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 1: limited way. And that that can be frightening, that can

593
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 1: be illuminating, And that's that's the whole that's psychedelia as

594
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 1: a whole door for a lot of experiences and a

595
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 1: lot of emotion. Think of it like sort of along

596
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 1: the lines of um drawings. Okay, so let's say like

597
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 1: you're looking at a drawing, and if you know what

598
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 1: one point perspective is, it's kind of how Wes Anderson

599
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 1: shoots a lot of his movies, right, Like, you've got

600
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 1: a center point and everything stems out of that center

601
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 1: point coming at you. But then you can switch to

602
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,480
Speaker 1: two point perspective or three point perspective, where you're looking

603
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 1: at multiple angles, or you're looking up or down from

604
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 1: like a skyscraper or something like that, right, And that's

605
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 1: like a very basic metaphor for what's going on here.

606
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 1: It's just changing the perspective with which you can look

607
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: at the world with. Yeah, I mean, one might be

608
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 1: heard to say something along the lines of I've never

609
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,959
Speaker 1: thought about myself that way before. I've never thought about uh,

610
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 1: this individual in this particular way before. And again, this

611
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 1: isn't us condoning like go out and do m d

612
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 1: m A right now, or us saying don't do m

613
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 1: d m A right It's it's neither of those things.

614
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 1: But I do think that it's interesting within a restrictive environment,

615
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 1: using it in conjunction with therapy, and especially uh, you know,

616
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: in a clinic like this, where there's somebody on hand

617
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 1: in case like you have a bad reaction or whatever,

618
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: right rather than being in a farm in the middle

619
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 1: of the woods where there's a secret rave going on. Now.

620
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 1: The final example of m d m A therapy and

621
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:15,839
Speaker 1: m d m A research that we want to mention

622
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,240
Speaker 1: here is the possibility of using m d M A

623
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 1: to treat individuals who are having a hard time with

624
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 1: with their with their impending death, with with with fatal

625
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:33,879
Speaker 1: life you know, fatal conditions, life threatening illnesses, uh as

626
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 1: they approach the death point. And there have been some

627
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 1: other studies that involve pocybin and it's use magic mushrooms

628
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 1: psocybin as as a way to help people deal with

629
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 1: that scenario. It's not just the pain we're talking about here.

630
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 1: We're talking just gravity of understanding your aiality, Yeah, thinking

631
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 1: about yourself and the grappling with mortality and the basic

632
00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 1: heavy human stuff. So the the main individual here is

633
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 1: uh San and sell Most psychiatrist Phil Wolfson, and he's

634
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 1: currently studying the use of m d m A assisted

635
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 1: psychotherapy to ease anxiety in eighteen adults diagnosed with life

636
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 1: threatening illnesses. Now, all of these individuals have a prognosis

637
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 1: life expectancy of at least nine months there can they

638
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 1: currently have severe anxiety related to life threatening illness. So

639
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 1: his goal here is to see whether patients suffering from

640
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:29,319
Speaker 1: crippling anxiety, fear, or depression over a terminal diagnosis can

641
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:35,240
Speaker 1: confine relative peace via m d m A assisted psychotherapy sessions.

642
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 1: So it's kind of the same scenario we've talked about

643
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:41,280
Speaker 1: with these previous psychotherapy examples, helping them open up about

644
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,360
Speaker 1: what's happening, help them gain a little perspective on what's happening,

645
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 1: and in doing so, perhaps find a place of peace. Right,

646
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 1: see it from a different angle, one with less fear. Yeah,

647
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 1: But again, Wolfson's study is just getting off the ground here.

648
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,399
Speaker 1: UM just started up this year, so hopefully we'll we'll

649
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,319
Speaker 1: hear more of the details in the years to come,

650
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 1: and you know, some of the core findings, and there's

651
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,959
Speaker 1: clearly got to be a lot of more research done

652
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 1: in all of these areas before we're just doing this,

653
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 1: you know, casually, especially in the sense of like predicting

654
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:17,840
Speaker 1: that the f d A is going to approve m

655
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 1: d M A for these ride public use. And I think,

656
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 1: I mean casual is a good thing to mention because

657
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 1: I think the underlying truth here is that it's such

658
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:30,880
Speaker 1: a potent and powerful substance that it should never believe,

659
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,239
Speaker 1: never be done casually. Like I would argue that even

660
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 1: in a recreational environment, it's not something to take lightly. Yeah,

661
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 1: I mean the research that needs to be done right

662
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 1: now is on all kinds of things, like why individuals

663
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 1: have such strong physiological ab reactions to it, right, Like

664
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:51,280
Speaker 1: we talked about the first episode, there's very occasionally individuals

665
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,919
Speaker 1: who have like cardiac arrest or seizures or something that's

666
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 1: not a common side effect of this, But why is

667
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 1: it happening to these some individuals? Right? Other things like

668
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,360
Speaker 1: why is there such a variance in the mood reactions.

669
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 1: Why for some people is at all positive, but for

670
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,760
Speaker 1: other people there's positive and negative, or others it's just negative.

671
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 1: You know what's going on there? How do other drugs

672
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,760
Speaker 1: in conjunction work with m d M A right, especially

673
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 1: like when you think about UM PTSD patients who are

674
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:22,880
Speaker 1: already taking daily medication for their PTSD, how's that interacting

675
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,799
Speaker 1: with the m D I mean, even Sasha Shulgin in

676
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 1: his research parties would tell his his friends, Look, don't

677
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,439
Speaker 1: take any medication for like three to five days before

678
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,319
Speaker 1: you come over here. And then you know, we just

679
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:38,799
Speaker 1: need to figure out the chronic tolerance development as well,

680
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 1: to like nail that down. Why is it that when

681
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 1: we take m d M A human bodies basically over time,

682
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 1: probably like between one dose and ten doses, over time

683
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 1: the positive effects lesson in the negative effects get worse. Indeed,

684
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 1: How to close out here, I just want to throw

685
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 1: out a quick quote. This comes to us from from

686
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 1: Alan Watts the late British Buddhist and Encounter Culture um icon.

687
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,240
Speaker 1: I'd say um wrote a lot spoke a lot about

688
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:12,880
Speaker 1: about Buddhism and h and also a certain amount about

689
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 1: about about other other modes of religion, and also about

690
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,760
Speaker 1: a lot of the counterculture of stuff that was happening

691
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 1: at the time time he was alive. This particular quote

692
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,399
Speaker 1: comes from nineteen seventy and he's he's probably commenting more

693
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 1: directly on on overt psychedelics PS, psilocybin and LSD. But

694
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 1: I think this holds true for a lot of what

695
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 1: we've talked about regarding m d m A. He says,

696
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 1: psychedelic experience is only a glimpse of genuine mystical insight,

697
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 1: but a glimpse which can be matured and deepened by

698
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 1: the various ways of meditation, in which drugs are no

699
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 1: longer necessary or useful. If you get the message hang

700
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 1: up the phone. For psychedelic drugs are simply instruments like microscopes, telescopes,

701
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 1: and telephones. The biologist does not sit with I permanently

702
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 1: glued to the microscope. He goes is away and works

703
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 1: on what he has seen. And I think that that

704
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 1: matches up rather nicely with the with the goals of

705
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:09,799
Speaker 1: m d m A assisted psychotherapy. I do, yeah, And

706
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:11,920
Speaker 1: I kind of have always thought of Alan Watts as

707
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 1: being sort of contemporary of Sasha Shulgin's as well, to

708
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:17,320
Speaker 1: the kind I wonder if those guys ever met, but

709
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 1: they're kind of like on the same team, Yeah, exactly

710
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 1: them and the two of them in Timothy Leria here

711
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 1: on the Psychedelic Avengers. Uh. So, I think that's about

712
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 1: you know, what we've got here on M D M A.

713
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 1: But I'd really like to hear from you the audience

714
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 1: some more about this because I'm sure there's a lot

715
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 1: of things we didn't cover. The literature in this is

716
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 1: dense and two days studying all this stuff leading up

717
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 1: to it, and I there's no way we could even

718
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 1: touch the surface. You know, there's just so much that's

719
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 1: being studied in it right now. So I'd love to

720
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,720
Speaker 1: know if there's things that we missed, or there's things

721
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 1: in particular that you you know about that are in

722
00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 1: trial right now or being studied right now that we

723
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 1: would be in interested in coming back to in a

724
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 1: future episode. Get in touch with us over social media.

725
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 1: That is one of the best ways to let us

726
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 1: know about these things. You can find us on Facebook, Twitter, Tumbler,

727
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 1: and don't forget that you can always talk to us

728
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 1: on periscope every Friday at noon. Yeah, and if you

729
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 1: would like to hear us take This approach is sort

730
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 1: of one to approach with with other substances such as

731
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 1: h such as marijuana. We've ever done any content on

732
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 1: marijuana and medicinal marijuana that would probably be h an

733
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 1: interesting topic. Let us know if you'd like to hear afect.

734
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: The idea for this episode came out of us talking

735
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 1: about the instances of synthetic cannabis in the news. Yeah,

736
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 1: and hey, you want to get in touch with this directly,

737
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:40,839
Speaker 1: you want to cut out stuff to blow your mind?

738
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:42,799
Speaker 1: Dot com and all the social accounts, you can just

739
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 1: email us at and blow the mind at how stuff works?

740
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:58,840
Speaker 1: Got so more on this and thousands of other topics.

741
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 1: Is it how stuff works? Ya about two four four

742
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 1: four four first five fo